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Posted by: Helen Philpot | September 18, 2012

53% of Americans no longer have dinner seated at an ironing board. Some still eat tuna fish.

Margaret, I can’t understand why Mitt is behind in the polls.    Just think of the millions of jobs that he has created with his wealth.   Oodles and oodles of them.   Why, the Staples story alone should have put this election away weeks ago.

In 1986, Mitt Romney and Bain provided $4.5 million to two supermarket executives, Leo Kahn and Thomas G. Stemberg, to open an office supply supermarket.  That retail chain called Staples went public in 1989 and by  1996, the company had grown to over 1,100 stores, and by 2008, over 2,000 stores.  Bain Capital eventually reaped a nearly sevenfold return on its investment, and Romney sat on the Staples board of directors for over a decade.  Rumor has it, he hasn’t eaten dinner at an ironing board since.

Well that’s impressive if you ask me.  Why wouldn’t we all line up to vote for that man? All that hard work keeping our economy strong deserves a good ‘ole fashion tax cut and a trip to the Oval Office.  What’s the problem?  It’s all simple math.  Create jobs.  Get a tax cut.  Use your tax cut to create more jobs.   The Republican way.

Now a smart man would simply shut up and let his actions speak for him.  But Mitt is not a smart man.  Instead of shutting up, he said this:

“There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you name it. That that’s an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what…  My job is not to worry about those people. I’ll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives.”

Ouch.  Some of those 47% are eating tuna fish off an ironing board right now.

See, here’s the problem.  Some of those 47% people are like me – old and eligible for Medicare.  Some of those people are like my grandson – smart and taking out loans to get through college because his dad doesn’t have a company to give him right now.   Some of those people are even military families just trying to make ends meet.   But some of those people – those 47% who think they are victims and expect the government to take care of them – are Staples employees who work full-time and are just trying to put food on the table for their families.  We call them the working poor.

An entry level job at Staples pays between $7 and $9 an hour.  If you do the math, that’s between $15,000 and $19,000 a year.    The poverty level in America for a family of three is $18,530.  As long as those hard-working Staples employees believe in birth control and don’t have any kids, they can stay just above the poverty level.   Success!  Vote Republican and wait for your tax cut to arrive in the mail.

Of course, you’ll be waiting quite a bit longer for that tax cut than your boss, the CEO of Staples, who made $9 million dollars last year.  I wonder who that guy is voting for?

The way I see it Margaret, it’s just simple math.  If the Republicans want more votes, they might want to consider handing out some raises at Staples.

The party of Jesus sure has gotten pretty far off track.  They forgot one of his basic rules.  I think it was something about the least among us… otherwise called the 47%.

Vote for the other guy.  I mean it. Really.

Click here to support Margaret and Helen’s website.


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  47. I agree with you Margaret and Helen, the 47% speech wasn’t the smartest thing to say. Have you two really been friends for over 60 years? That is incredible!

  48. Bravo Helen for an intense and intelligent post! Just discovered you through Denise Oliver Velez’s Sunday column on Daily Kos and hope to keep reading you. That’ll get you some more readers, fersure.

    Belonging to Mitt’s most dedicated demographic (older, white men) but dedicated to making sure he’s never president, I applaud your efforts to keep the word out there: seniors are mad as hell at the Mittbot and hope he chokes on Big Bird’s feathers.

    Go Helen! Go Margaret!

  49. Wow. Nail. Meet head. Helen, you are one very smart, well-spoken lady. I wish I had your words when coming up against some of my family in a debate. I was just introduced to your blog yesterday and reading through old posts. Love it. And love that your grandson (smart man) set you up so you can share your wise (and hilarious!) words with us!

  50. Any bets that we attack somewhere in the world..Libya, Iran,,ect before the election for political points?

  51. From the Obama campaign:

    I hope I made you proud out there explaining the vision we share for this country.

    Followed by a donation link.

  52. Hee hee hee! You are talking cute little furry critters – I’m talking about pond scum! Although U Are Wrong may actually be Ur A Wolverine, I would hardly describe them as cute and furry!

  53. I do love it when “the help” draw from their middle school insult hand guide.

  54. HI, JC – Yeah! I see what you mean… We usually have pretty good luck around our place trapping varmints by using a couple of large HavAHart traps, baited with cabbage. But when they have a new litter – as seems to have happened here – it’s hard to get them all at once. The little ones never want to leave the mother… But, eventually, it all works out. Just takes patience!


  55. @JC: And you provide an excellent example of how one side needs to bash the other assuming allegiance to the “other guy” I was defending Staples, not Romney. You don’t like what I say so you call me names and tell me to go away. … and then you talk about the 1st amendment.

    FYI: I do not think Romney is the best choice for POTUS. I didn’t like him last time and don’t like him this time. However to conclude he’s not fit because he does’t have sufficient business experience is ludicrous as the current guy HAS NONE and has proven this many times over. It’s sad that we have a two party system where we are left having to pick the one puppet who will do the least amount of damage.

  56. Gosh Gato, I think I’d better see about installing some kind of drainage system under the Porch here – something nasty is multiplying under there! U Are Wrong tries to send us to the Blaze, etc, non proses on about Glenn Beck being a credible source, and now we have this kase ass citing a FICTIONAL FOREIGN AGENT/ASSASSIN as a model for how a presidential candidate ought to be able to conduct business. Things must be getting pretty stagnant down there…

  57. “It’s only illegal if they do it illegally”

    Wow, really? Somehow, “ya think”, doesn’t quite get it done on this one.

  58. It’s only illegal if they do it illegally. I may have money invested overseas too in my 401k but Wells Fargo makes sure it’s shipshape and above board. Phil Gramm and USB were not operating according to the rules, that’s what the problem is-Rmoney may be one that benefitted. Furthermore, being a “good” or “successful” businessman doesn’t necessarily give you the skills to be President of the United States. Many of us here are questioning whether Rmoney HAS those skills (I would be in the “nope” camp) and we are well within our first amendment rights to do so! So take your rude snotty little self and your shut-ups to some sorry ass right wing site where you and 10000 of your closest like minded moronic friends can sing Rmoneys praises and bash the Prez ALL DAY LONG. In two comments you have demonstrated that you have nothing constructive to add to our conversation, so get lost, sycophant!

  59. There is nothing illegal about having a Swiss bank account.

    Why is it cool for James Bond and Jason Bourne to have one, but not the guy running for President of the United States? In the US, having a Swiss bank account has been portrayed as bad ass, not something to be ashamed of.

    But if you people want to vilify politicians with money invested overseas, they might want to take a look at Democratic National Committee Chairman Debbie Wasserman-Schultz. She has money tied up in Swiss banks too. And foreign drug companies, and the state bank of India. So shut up about Mitt Romney already.

  60. If you missed the debate, this 1:40 clip sums up how the entire debate looked. Romney handing a bad performance review to a subordinate, who, looking down knowing he was guilty, taking what was due him.

  61. Regarding your comments about Staples: So your idea is that Staples should have one wage for everyone? What’s wrong with hiring new workers at a low rate then allowing them to ascend into more responsibility? And what’s wrong with reaping a large profit from taking a large risk? Staples hires ~27,500 new employees per year. That’s 27,500 new opportunities for people to improve their position in life.

    Also, maybe you’re not aware, Staples has a huge number of employees that are not on the retail floor and they make considerably more — because they’ve *did something* to get there.

    As for your slam of any CEO that makes $9 million. There are only 290 cities in the US that have a population larger than the number of people Stables employs. How much would you want to run a company with nearly 100,000 employees? No need to answer. That was rhetorical as there’s no chance you could get the job. (and with your attitude, I doubt you could get a one of those $10/hr positions)

  62. We dont need a gentleman for a Leader, we need a warrior. Someone that can stand up to the bullies of the world, not tell them, thank you mam..can I have another. Romney showed us he will fight for us. I want a fighter, not a wimpy English gentleman.

    As for Romney telling lies, Fact Check disagrees. He had one they described as Mostly false with a ? at the end of that due to lack of evidence.

  63. Good morning, Sidney & porch dwellers! Answer about the smirk: Constantly. I know most of the pundits (who cares?) are saying that Mittens “won” last night, mainly because he was so aggressive. He lied all over the place, among other things. (Who can believe R saying, “Of course we need regulation.”?)

    A great Freudian typo from one of our Non’s posts last night – something about “…may the best ‘mad’ win…” Loved that. And if that’s what people were looking for from Mittens, they had to be pleased.

    I realized that I, personally, was hoping that the President would wipe the floor with R just so the whole bloody thing would be OVER! But no… Obama insisted on behaving like a gentleman, faced with a toddler throwing the same old tantrum once again… It could have degenerated into an “I said”, “No you didn’t” thing if one person had not remained the Grownup in the Room.

    I’m going with those who project that OFA is already hard at work mining the treasure trove of lies and “misstatements” that came forth last evening, and looking forward to seeing what they do with them.

    ALSO looking forward to reading the remaining thirty-some bulletins from The Porch this morning… And deleting any that may have crept out from under the front steps…


  64. Hey sidney,
    Yup, I thought Romney was smirking, overly aggressive, and rude and manic. Jim Lehrer was terrible and just let Romney walk all over him and the debate rules. I want to hear from the fact checkers now. Are there Americans who will really believe that Romney will keep Medicare and all the good parts of Obamacare, cut taxes, increase defense spending, invest in education and it won’t cost a thing? No new revenues required? Total, utter BS and I don’t believe Americans will believe it. That being said, Obama didn’t bring his A game.

  65. Mageen–CBS snap poll showed that 32% of undecideds thought the debate was a tie. Romney has to move undecideds hugely to have a chance and didn’t last night. Watch the polls for the next few days, ignore the spin (from people with a vested economic interest in portraying a horse race), and I think you’ll see some encouraging things.

  66. Here is where I put my grad degree in psych to work. Even Ann Romney has let slip some info on Mitt that, combined with what we the people see, convince me the guy is manic and not on any kind of medication or therapy to deal with it. Look at the way he rolled over the moderator and broke debate rules right and left. If he had pulled that stuff in a regular debate class in school,he would have been expelled! Remember the $10,000 “offer” he made Rick Perry during the primary debates? He got close enough to Perry by turning a bit. Perry got a very, very good look at him and reacted as if he smelled something bad. Can’t forget the look on Perry’s face. And Mitt’s “criteria” for what he would do with the existing Executive Departments, agencies and so on scared the socks off of me!!! His disdain for our veterans is a matter of record (convention speech). I can just see the Department of Veterans Affairs disappearing (his 47% speech at a $50,000 a plate dinner). As for the tax reform, it was always aimed at making the 1% richer. And, yes, that smirk! Is the smirk de regeur for all Republican Presidential candidates?

  67. Donna, Terri, Gato…..how much did you want to smack that smirk off of Romneys face?

  68. Both say they will/have work together with their opposition. On that point…with Romney it is a matter of public record, with Obama it is still rhetoric.

  69. Interesting “debate.” Of course Romney was long on promises but short on specifics. I’m sure his followers loved his ability to run roughshod over the President and the moderator without ever having to give any specific details on how he’d perform his miracles..
    But what really struck me, as a former resident of MA when he was governor, was his appropriation of the health Massachusetts health care insurance reform law, is if it had been his responsibility. As I recall, most of the bill came from the work of some career state politicians and he vetoed a half dozen amendments that were later over ridden by the legislature. It has also been amended several time since to make it work. To see his bald-faced claims that it was his bill leave a very sour taste in my mouth. He’s such a phony..
    BTW this is the same governor who bailed out part way through his last term and left a neophyte Lt. Governor to clean up the mess he left behind.

  70. And, as always, can we please ignore the troll?

  71. Sidney: Romney may have picked up some undecideds but I doubt it’s enough to make a difference. You’ll hear lots of pundits taking all sorts of positions but none of that matters. I think that the people who were going to vote for Obama still will and that Romney did nothing whatsoever to energize his base or pick up enough undecideds to make a difference.

    Easier: your reaction is similar to many people’s. Most people don’t like bullies or a-holes. Romney was condescending, rude, and constantly smirking. I don’t think that will play well with many of the people that Romney would have needed to persuade, such as seniors.

    I think that Obama picked up alot of information that will be used against Romney in the coming weeks–that may have been the intention.

  72. Obama better hope a Kicked Ass is covered under Obamacare. -Dennis Miller via Twitter.

    Bill Mahr says Obama will need a teleprompter for the next debate! via Twitter

  73. Could not be more wrong Easier. When Obama tried to hang Romney for not giving specifics on everything he intends to do, Romney gave the perfect answer. Unlike Obama who crammed Obamacare down our throats, Romney, like he did in his own state, intends to find common ground. This makes particulars irrelevant as if you intend to actually compromise, principles are enough to begin the process to come up with a plan everyone can agree with. Pure Genius.

  74. I agree Donna. This debate just solidified peoples’ positions. Our guy is not fIashy. He is honest and stands by his beliefs. I personally prefer people who have core beliefs and stand by them. Mitt simply does not strike me as someone with such qualities, as simple as that. I don’t trust him.

  75. Donna, do you think that Romney might of picked up some undecided voters? He was pretty spunky and Obama could have called him out on so many lies, but he let them slide.

  76. I think many independents were swayed tonight. The 15 panel board that gets to effectively ration health care, that operates outside the constraints of congress I think is going to be a huge negative for Obama. We already know Obama has overstepped his executive authority 3 times showing his disdain for how we do things in this country mandated by the Constitution. This 15 panel board is another shining example of that. I suspect we will see a lot more on this in the coming weeks ahead and independent voters will care greatly about it.

  77. Easier: I’m a trial lawyer and view things from that perspective. Nobody who was undecided is likely to change their vote based on tonight’s debate. And there will be a lot of publicity and ads about Romney’s changes of position and flat out falsehoods. The people who would have voted for Romney still will. The people who would have voted for Obama still will. Romney’s abandonment of certain very conservative positions will, if anything, motivate some people who might have voted for him to stay home. This was not a debate directed at you or me or anyone committed on either side.

  78. I caught half of the debate. Was at a conference and my flight home crossed paths with Air Force One today and of course the President had the right of way. So we waited until he flew out. I still made it home 5 minutes early. My connecting time was just a tad shorter.

    I think Mitt Romney did good for himself tonight. My vote is already set in stone however, therefore, he will not sway me. His base sure will be buoyed by his performance. It might be just me, but I just don’t think the tired old position in regard to the market place taking care of everybody with hardly any government intervention has worked. Might appeal to people with no memory of the past but I just know that when businesses are left to their own devices, profits usually win over people. That is how jobs got outsourced, that is how people get to work full time and can’t earn a living wage doing so, all to protect corporation’s bottom line. I prefer the guy who cares about people.

  79. 1st I want to say that that was my favorite format for a Presidential debate I have ever seen. This is how they all should be done so that rules do not allow points to me made, expanded on, and finished. Absolutely perfect.

    2nd. Romney hit a grand slam home run. I was very happy when Santorum lost the nomination, tonight, I don’t feel so bad at all, the better mad did win. He defined himself and was as Presidential as I could have ever hoped for. Romney was the clear winner.

  80. well Terri….
    11 more states where the Dems can stuff the F#cken ballot box…..
    how many ballot boxes are they going to find in someones trunk this time????????

  81. Sorry, Donna, and all – Had a slip-up there… I will try to remember that every time I just can’t resist, it means that thousands of “Delete” buttons will have to be hit because of my lack of self-restraint…!


  82. A couple of comments I “borrowed” along the way to pass on.

    Oh Pinocchio Paul,
    Who’s tryin to fool us All
    How does your long nose grow??

    With fiction, No facts
    And your math is Whack
    We all just wish you would go!
    they’re making a big Mitts take.

    Anyone have more to add?


  83. Guess it is clear what Donna thinks of gato then.

  84. Well guess we know what Donna thinks of Gato..nuff said.

  85. Please do not feed the troll.

  86. Oh and FYI Donna, I actually prefer when you people don’t respond. It lets my arguments sit on their own merit without you and your manipulative arguments twisting everything around. I still think you should not assume other people’s ignorance, that is just rude.

  87. Donna, you really should not assume that people are so incompetent that they need you to tell them what to do over and over. As always you really being down the mood of the blog. Let people make their own decisions and stop handing out marching orders.

  88. Gato: Please, PLEASE, ignore the troll. I have seen this for years. He starts the constant linking when he’s being ignored. That’s when Matthew bans him again. Putting that aside, every time you respond, you validate him. You make him happy. You serve his pathetic purpose. Please stop.
    If you want this to be the fun and interesting blog that it can be, you will not respond.

  89. I choose heaven.

  90. I do love a spot of incoherent, incomplete thoughts. The battle cry if the intellectually impotent.

  91. Actually, Non, all that is precisely why YOU “must go”.


  92. Here’s hoping the debate will inspire another post from M&H!

  93. Another reason Obama must go. According to the Department of Justice, fro documents the ACLU acquired under the FOA, more people have been put under survailance by this administration in the last 2 years than the whole decade before combined. Tracking of email and network communications has increased 361% in just the last 2 years.

  94. Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. Their very kindness stings with intolerable insult. C.S. Lewis

    This is why Obama must go.

  95. Canada, Mexico, Cuba, China. What do all of these countries have in common? Their economic growth is greater than our 1.3%. Something to be proud of?

  96. alaskapi – I found Mudflats in 2008 when Palin was picked. AKM was great with her opinion of Palin. I happened to go on the day she was outed by whatshisassholeface. I felt so sorry for her you could feel her pain in her writing that morning. But she has come a long way since then and I am so happy for her.

    Enjoy the snow but please keep it up there! I hear we are in for a bad winter in this part of the world and I pray they are wrong. The older the colder I get!


  97. Donna- glad you liked MF. Great fun there.
    Snow creeping down the mountains here, bears by the front door every morning in search of last snacks before hibernation, ice on truck windshield in the mornings, %#@&*%$ing porcupines mowing down last of garden just because they are jerks…
    Waiting to hear if absentee ballots change anything with municipal election.Sad fewer than 30% of eligible voters turned out.
    Local elections here mean far more than Presidential elections do as far as what really affects our everyday lives.

  98. please don’t feed the troll.

  99. Yes. it is indeed immoral. Republicans understand that to live in this day and age without an ID makes things unnecessarily hard on the poor. Just because one of the larger voting blocks for Dimocrats are the dead and illegals, the poor lose out on this opportunity to get free ID’s.

  100. Some good news for a change: courts in 11 states have struck down or delayed implementation of voter suppression laws. Gives me hope that common sense and decency can still prevail. Disenfranchising voters is immoral.

  101. Pi–what a great blog! I hadn’t heard of it. Many thanks.

  102. Well said

  103. Donna- I won’t be watching. Don’t have a TV. NPR works though .
    If anyone wants a laugh to prep themselves for the debate , please visit my favorite Alaskan blogger on


    The letter . Oh dear. LOL LMAO and every other string of letters for high hilarity one can think of :-)

  104. You ladies are witty. I like it.

  105. I’ll be watching. Should be interesting.

  106. thanks, Gato–we will be watching as well. I look forward to discussing it here. Have a great day.

  107. ME! With my best GFF, in an RV park in Idaho… No TV, but we’ll stream it.


  108. Borrowed from this article but how true is this statement?

    None of this matters to progressives. Against all this destructiveness, they will respond not with arguments to refute these consequences of the liberal welfare state, but by citing the terms “social justice” and “compassion,” and by labeling their opponents “selfish” and worse.

    If you want to feel good, liberalism is awesome. If you want to do good, it is largely awful.


  109. Who’s planning on watching the debate tomorrow?

  110. Asked about the Fast and Furious program at the Univision forum on Thursday, President Obama falsely claimed that the program began under President George W. Bush.

    In actuality, the Fast and Furious program was started in October 2009, nine months into the Obama presidency.

    Previous programs involving ATF agents allowing guns to “walk” across the border so as to trace them were run during the Bush presidency, but not this particular “field-initiated program.”


    Me thinks the I word might just be in order.

  111. No surprise here, Obamacare is designed to increase the health care coverage of Americans but doing so will, in part, yield something else: Wealth distribution. So not a socialist? Pshh!!!

    The Affordable Care Act will raise taxes by $52,000 on average for families among the top 1 percent of earners in order to finance $250 to $2,000 worth of health benefits for the poorest half of American families by 2016, a recent report from the Tax Foundation has found.


  112. Best thing about this place? You never have to explain what you mean. The ladies are more than happy to tell you what you meant, even rejecting what you say you mean and inform you that no, they know better what you think than you do.

    Get used to the troll comment. Other than the circular validation that is a regular on here, they have this emotional need to repeat themselves like a broken record in case someone knew reads. It is their idea of a PSA.

  113. Hi Gato, mostly non is DULL! It is so disappointing to open the email and find the non-name, which means automatic trash, do not pass go. It’s much more fun if it’s you or sidney or terri or Donna, Cynthia, auntie Jean, alaskapi, or whirled peas, Bo, or so many others! His drivel is just that, and it is so entertaining to read someone who is engaged not just driveling on about the same old tired crap they’ve been trying to sell us for years. Trash.

  114. Hey, JC – Are any of us actually “troubled” by any of Non’s stuff…? I think not… Even as I am not totally comfortable with the “us” versus “Non” position, although I certainly often take it.

    There’s adversarial… And then there’s meaningless. And sorry. And impossible.


  115. Hey, Bob D – Thanks for crunching the numbers. Of course, numbers mean nothing to the Non. He just won’t shut TF up.


  116. LynnN posted this little gem of a link on juanitajean.com; looks like Ryan math and voodoo economics and Grover Norquist’s ideas all in one place! Enjoy!


  117. Hi Bob, welcome to the discussion. Non pulls numbers out of his butt and relabels them “facts.” He may be trying to make the case that 25 million baby (fetal?) girls have been cruelly “murdered” by abortion. He thinks that he has the right to force other people to live according to his world view “the TRUTH dammit” and that we are all mean and snarky and won’t play nice by accepting his “facts” and “TRUTH” which he backs up via the Blaze, Brietbart, and Glen bloody Beck for crying out loud. You just can’t waste your time taking him seriously, he just wants to make trouble for the rest of us! I think he has money invested in Pfizer and Johnson and Johnson and Bayer and is trying to drive up the price of BP meds, myself! I just trash his crap as soon as I see the empty space where a name oughta be!

  118. UAW–just saw your comment. Nothing to do with PC or not. You and I couldn’t be further apart in our views and, well, nobody would accuse you of being PC. But you are a good guy and I’ve never felt the need to insult you and can’t imagine I ever would.

  119. Bob D: It’s a troll. A long term troll who does this to get attention. Please don’t feed it. Thanks.

  120. Re: Anonymous’s comment “Over 25 million women killed since 1973. Abortion, the REAL war on women.”

    For more info: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html
    E.g. “In South Africa, the annual number of abortion-related deaths fell by 91 % after the liberalization of the abortion law.”
    “The estimated annual number of deaths from unsafe abortion declined from 56,000 in 2003 to 47,000 in 2008. Complications from unsafe abortion accounted for an estimated 13% of all maternal deaths worldwide in both years.”

    Assume 56,000 deaths from unsafe abortions each year since 1973. To set a boundary on your 25 million, arbitrarily assume the same number of deaths from safe abortions (which is nonsense). That gives 4 1/2 million deaths.

    Where did you find 25 million?

  121. Ahhhhh…so cute. Nonny wants a peanut!

  122. Ryan this morning said that he wouldn’t explain the tax plan because he didn’t want people to change the channel. He said on Sunday that he had “run the numbers” and they added up. Of course, he said a month ago that the campaign had not run the numbers. Wish he’d been asked when they managed to run them, who did, and just how they made up for what bipartisan studies have shown doesn’t work.

  123. Over 25 million women killed since 1973. Abortion, the REAL war on women.

  124. Gato – Possible answer to your question. TV interviewers/hosts make big buck these days and they wish to keep their job. Also if they REALLY did their job candidates would not come on their show. Campaigns spend big money running ads and the stations do not wish to lose that money. It is all about money.


  125. Paul Ryan has proven to be a lot less impressive than we thought before he was nominated. All we really need to know about his budget is that there is $5 billion in tax cuts, so millionaires and billionaires will be happy; seniors will get a nice voucher to use to buy health insurance (what could go wrong?), and the budget will be balanced in 2040. This is what the intellectual leader of the GOP is proposing, along with $2 billion in increased defense spending. If you need food stamps, tough luck. Need a student loan? You’re out of luck. A deficit hawk? He can’t or won’t explain any of it. What a fraud!

  126. Gato…the vulture and the voucher are running their campaign like a scratch-off lottery ticket. You spends your money and you takes your chances and you don’t know if your gonna win or lose until you scratch it off.

  127. Hi, again, Whirled – And, IMHO, the bloody INTERVIEWERS are equally culpable in situations like this. Candidates are expected to prevaricate, dodge, and invent: “Reporters” are supposed to call them on it when they do. Why didn’t what’s-his-name say, something like, “Okay; we’ll give you three minutes, Mr. Ryan. See what you can come up with.”

    Just as nobody on the Faux “panel” countered Krauthammer’s ridiculous statement about the last night of the DNC being moved from a stadium to a hall because of threatening weather, that the Democrats “knew months ahead of time what the weather would be.” And that well-haired Baier just smiled and said, “As always, thank you, Charles.”

    Lordy but they are reprehensible…

    (And I apologize for not being able to get all my thoughts together in a single post!)


  128. Aaahhh, Whirled – Where does this guy get off? (I love what Charlie Pierce always calls him: “the google-eyed granny starver”, or GEGS, for short.)

    The huddled masses actually have the nerve to want to KNOW some financial details about his vaunted “plan”? (Haven’t they learned from Mittens that such things are just not “done”…?) Oh, but it’s all far too complicated for them to understand, and only someone with the “financial genius” of Mr. Ryan can possibly understand it. But he does! And we just have to believe that he is smarter than the rest of us, and can assure us that our paltry little concerns will be taken into consideration… And then blasted to hell, most likely.

    Krikeys! If I were trying to sell a VACUUM CLEANER I’d be bloody better able than he is to outline the details of all its wonderful features… And in less than five minutes, you can bet.

    And if I couldn’t, I’d expect to be thrown out the door. Jeez…


  129. The Real Referendum
    By Paul Krugman

    …there is a sense in which the election is indeed a referendum, but of a different kind. Voters are, in effect, being asked to deliver a verdict on the legacy of the New Deal and the Great Society, on Social Security, Medicare and, yes, Obamacare, which represents an extension of that legacy. Will they vote for politicians who want to replace Medicare with Vouchercare, who denounce Social Security as “collectivist” (as Paul Ryan once did), who dismiss those who turn to social insurance programs as people unwilling to take responsibility for their lives?

    PEACE ~ Δ

  130. Did you see what Lyin’ Ryan
    said on Fox News Sunday?

    “It would take me too long
    to go thru all of the math…”

    And this is on the 24/7 Romney/Ryan Infomercial Channel.

    Ya think it’s because he knows their viewers are stooopid?
    . ;)

    PEACE ~ Δ

  131. Really, UAW? Really? You’re going to defend him? Against Donna of all people?

  132. Well, we can plainly see one of the problems here. People who think Breitbart, The Blaze, Faux News, World Net Daily and The Daily Caller are valid sources of information. The boys in the bubble persist….

  133. Unreasonable People – Stonekettle.com

    “But it doesn’t make any difference.
    Not to the crazies anyway.
    You cannot reason with unreasonable people.
    And it is my policy not to engage in debate with willfully unreasonable people.
    There’s a difference between stupid and deliberately stupid.
    In such cases, mostly I just point and laugh.”


  134. wonder how this will affect the Hispanic vote….

    “Univision held nothing back in its broadcast, airing images and video of bloodied, dead bodies. The network showed the faces of the dead and walked viewers through how cartel operatives hunted their victims down with the weapons President Barack Obama’s administration allowed straw buyers to traffick to them.”

    Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/01/univision-report-connects-operation-fast-and-furious-scandal-to-murders-of-mexican-teenagers/#ixzz284GSOea1

  135. Hey Donna….
    Let me see if I’ve got this right….
    It’s OK to insult someone as long as your PC about it…….
    You apparently have a problem with some people not being PC……
    Having spent a lot of time in factories where efficency is the the rule…less words are better……just saying…..An insult is still an insult…..and being PC about it doesn’t lessen the insult…..

  136. Donna:

    Great to see you back. I’d just about given up on this site because of the obnoxious troll problem but I do check in once in a while and am delighted to see that a new crop of posters have taken the fight head on and are showing everyone what fools the trolls really are. And I too believe that severe mental problems may be a core issue.

    Whirled Peas – October 1, 2012 at 10:54 AM.

    Right on!!

    And to the recent posters who are now in charge of dispatching the obnoxious trolls, thanks for saving the site.

  137. Funny story… I’ve already stated that I’m in the IGNORE ‘IT’ camp, but that’s mostly because my Dad used to say: “Never wrestle with a pig; you both get dirty and the pig likes it!” Well that doesn’t mean I don’t sometimes read IT’s diatribes, you know, for the laughs. Backstory: I personally refer to IT as Di*khead. So while reading the latest fart IT released, I noticed RIDGED instead of RIGID, so I searched for it on the Google. And there was this one link to Wikipedia:

    Ridged band. (Very NSFW pic included)

    The term ridged band is a description of an area/band of wrinkly skin toward the end of the foreskin.

    How appropriate. ;)

    PEACE ~ Δ

  138. Thanks Whirled Peas !

  139. http://www.juanitajean.com/

    Fixed it for ya there CraftyLady.

  140. Hi, Terri, and porch dwellers all – On the positive side, glad to see that Mister Pesky is alert enough to see that many of our comments are, in fact “personal attacks”. Yes, indeedy; that’s precisely what they are. (Probably a result of all of our “ridged thinking”…)

    An arrogant, obnoxious poseur reciting Shakespeare is still an arrogant, obnoxious poseur, and will rightfully have those tomatoes lobbed at him by an indignant audience. (Or, in some cases, peanuts…)

    Oh, if we could only believe that his “Nuff said” were really the case!


  141. http://www.bradblog.com/?p=9598/ Thought many of you might be interested in the story at this blog. I found it at http://www.juanitajean.com…the world’s most dangerous beauty salon. Hope I transferred this here correctly.

  142. Sept. 30: Romney Down a Touchdown?
    By Nate Silver

    According to the win probability calculator at AdvancedNFLStats.com, an N.F.L. team down by field goal with 10 minutes left to play in the fourth quarter has a 34 percent probability of winning the game. A team down by a touchdown wins just 16 percent of the time.

    If you look at our estimate of Mitt Romney’s chances of winning the Electoral College, which are about 15 percent right now in the FiveThirtyEight forecast, the touchdown analogy works best: Mr. Romney has about as much chance of winning as an N.F.L. team does when it trails by a touchdown early in the fourth quarter.

    *Check out the Now-Cast
    on the right side of the page. ;)

    PEACE ~ Δ

  143. Again, point proven. Personal attacks rather than a battle over ideologies. The problem isn’t me, it is your own ridged thinking and instinct to attack anyone on here who comes in with a different way of thinking. I did nothing but post a video and this attack ensued. Proof where the problem lies. Nuff said.

  144. Hi all,
    I agree Anonymous is a big pain in the ass and his posts disrupt the flow of the conversation. On a positive note, I have greatly enjoyed reading all your comments and posts about him. All of you : Gato, Donna, JC, sidney, jc, et al, are wicked smart and articulate. Donna, I agree with you, there seems to be a mental health issue with him. He really should spend some time on the internet searching for a good therapist. His dogged persistence in insisting on being noticed and paid attention to is alarming. And his deliberate misunderstanding of clearly written English is just plain bonkers.

  145. Non, I can’t believe that I spent a minute of my time feeling sorry for you. I thought that you believed in something when clearly you are nothing but an ignorant asswipe. I wouldn’t spit on you if you were on fire.
    Does anyone know if there Is there anyway to block this malicious garbage from ending up in my in box?

  146. If we all just flush his posts maybe he will go away and bother someone else. He only comes here because he knows we are the sort of people who give everyone a chance or 95 – and then has the nerve to sneer at us and otherwise belittle our musings. I find him irritating and UNamusing, so I dump
    his posts. UAWs too – bad for my blood pressure, not worth my time, and beneath my dignity. Yoohoo U I’m still looking forward to negating your vote AND flushing your posts! Donna, I’m really sorry you returned to the Front Porch just to find non here like some particularly annoying mosquito that won’t just go the hell away! The monkey thing was fun though. Perhaps if you sit by Gato, Terri, and Cynthia their amusing coversation will drown out the buzz :) !!
    From the steps…

  147. Donna-
    He’s being deliberately obtuse. Period.
    Same old, same old.
    Truth Teller’s “borrow” of comment at R’s is also the kind of stuff Noah is known here for- though as we know , here, it is the misogynistic horsepunky instead of the N word which accompanies the predictable rant.
    Day got some better thanks.

    First snow, Cynthia. Very beautiful but melted off mostly.
    Municipal election here on Tues. As a home rule borough we have more control of our own local government than is the norm Outside. We keep all our property taxes and sales tax to run ourselves
    Sometimes we even do a decent job of it, too :-)

  148. Final comment. Noah, as is typical of him, lives in a fantasy world. A world where he announces what people viewed or read and why they do things. He has absolutely no reason to even suggest that I viewed his video and I did not. Because I didn’t view it, I hardly needed to (or did) rush to “attack” him. And both the newbies and old timers know that I’ve had no use for him since he appeared here–this was hardly out of the blue.

    Truly, Noah. Whatever tenuous hold you had on reality has slipped. Get help.

  149. You are losing it even more, Noah. I didn’t click at all, so didn’t watch even a nano-second of it. And that is because I knew it was from you and I know you are an unbalanced and malicious person. p.s. It’s “counselor.”

    I do think your family, if you have one, should be concerned about your stability and mental health.

  150. Non – You need to get a day job, and some kind of a life that means something to yourself, and to the rest of the Universe. This isn’t it. Trust me.


  151. Don’t know if they were malicious links. My understand he used The Blaze and Brietbart and such to back up his facts. Person making the claim considered them nefarious links. That person was not impressed with Noah’s research nor with him. I believe R grew impatience with Noah’s behavior over time. This information can be found on R’s blog in “Kansas, Mexico and Points Beyond” towards the end of the comments.

  152. Bottom line is this. I made a post where no negative words were posted with a video link. Donna watched that link and was fooled as the first half was people who voted for Obama showing why they voted for him, but them about half way through it changed to why they were not voting for Obama this time around. Because she lacked the ability to intellectually refute the video, she instead launched a vicious attack against me making false claims that I post malicious links as proved conclusively by her own words.

    Donna has been posting for days and she chose that moment to speak out about me randomly? NO, she purposefully chose that moment specifically to make a baseless accusation with the expressed purpose to give people the impression I post dangerous material. This is a drum I don’t need to beat anymore. Proof is there and is irrefutable. I did nothing to provoke this other than share an opinion that Donna opposes. Case close councilor.

  153. See previous comments, Noah. And, again, perseveration is a sign of mental illness. Insisting on something that never happened is a character flaw. You appear to suffer from both. And I had no idea that you had done the same thing on another blog! Bet there are still others.

    No apology because I never accused you of posting malicious links. I accused you of being the sort of person who would. And I stand by that 100%. In fact, I believe Truth Teller has validated my opinion.

    Sorry you lack the ability to understand basic communication but that’s been shown repeatedly in your tenure here.

  154. Hi, Donna – Newbie here. I will follow your advice.

    I’m glad that many of you fellow porch dwellers got a good laugh at my monkey thing. Seemed right to me, and I really enjoyed writing it. It pleased me so much to learn that it brought you some joy.

    The idea of someone’s announcing that he’s sacrificing himself to “sulk” for me, or feels that it is his job to make my transgressions clear to me, gives me the CREEPS, big time! Talk about blasphemy! If anyone is going to judge my transgressions, it will be the Universe, period. I’m good with that. I answer only to myself, to my creator, and to those whom I respect… And never to some anonymous blog troll whose posts are now filling my “trash” file to overflowing.


  155. Wait-what? No proof Donna? Really? How about an apology then Donna for telling a lie?

  156. Wait–what the heck? He was posting malicious links at another blog? Or people worried that he was? That just registered, Truth Teller.

  157. Thank you for clarifying, Truth Teller. Now, because you seem to be a measured sort of person, do you view me as having:

    (a) said that Noah/Anonymous actually had posted malicious links; or

    (b) said that Noah/Anonymous was the sort of person who I believed would post malicious links?

  158. Thank you, Truth Teller. That is about as malicious as it gets. What a creep.

  159. He was not actually banned. R said he would no longer converse with him but would not ban him. If someone wanted to interact with Noah fine. Noah seems to have self-deported. Noah demanded R respond to his questions on a number of occasions as he does here. Few paid attention to him.

  160. Take a look at what I have posted in this thread. I have been the one enduring the attacks, not giving them. I show my opinion and give a defense for my arguments. While many others chose to ignore my opinions and attack me directly, just as Donna did with her baseless attacks claiming I post malicious links, to which she has still yet to provide a single shred of evidence. What this is, is an attempt by a vicious and mean spirited person to silence anyone who doesn’t agree with her opinion.

  161. This is his post to R.
    220. Noah | September 21, 2012 at 3:10 pm
    Poor poor little man. You say these things because your small mind is failing you. I can see why the corporate world got rid of you. A little joke like this has nothing to do with posting nefarious links. Step up Bro. Show that I have done even one questionable link and I will mail you $100.00 and never post on this board again. Step up or show everyone what you really are. That N word, you just became it if you cannot substantiate this claim, NO MATTER WHAT EXCUSE YOU COME UP WITH.

  162. Lets open this up for other people’s opinion. You start out by saying: There is no circumstance under which I would click on any link posted by Noah/Anonymous.

    Pretty clear your meaning here. You are warning people against clicking. Not only warning, but going so far as to say under no circumstances.

    You then go on to explain why you feel this way by saying: Forewarned is forearmed, and he’s proven himself on many occasions here to be malicious You state here that I have been proven to do this, not just once but on many occasions.

    You could not have made yourself more clear than you did here in this statement. Please anyone show me another possible interpretation of these words. This is one of those cases that even a professional spin doctor would have a hard time manipulating your words into something else. Prove that I posted malicious links, or admit your lie.

  163. Donna and sidney, looks like you’ve managed to get under his skin. At least he dropped the facade he had recently adopted of being rational. His scolding of others for losing their patience with him was ridiculous and his true nature is once again revealed. His persistence is creepy and kind of stalkerish.

  164. You either are being deliberately obtuse or you can’t read. I said you were malicious–I think most people here would agree with that. Malicious people do malicious things–I think most people (here and elsewhere) would agree with that. Hence, because you are a demonstrated malicious person, you are someone who can’t be trusted not to behave with malice. When dealing with the internet, it is only prudent to avoid ever clicking on something that anyone like you posts.

    I stepped in nothing. I said what is exactly correct: you are someone who has repeatedly been vicious, insulting, juvenile, and disrespectful here. You have insulted the posters and hosts. You have carried on about how horrible “liberals” and “progressives” are. You have demonstrated unending bile and disdain. And that was my point. For heaven’s sake, you’re such a jerk that you actually had to promise Matthew to behave better (of course, you immediately broke that promise but your own words show you know how obnoxious you are). And you are so unbalanced that you devote time and energy to constantly sneaking back onto a blog from which you’ve been banned and where it doesn’t appear anyone wants you to be. And, as I understand, this isn’t the only place where it’s happened.

    That is all I’m going to say about it. Anyone–I mean any literate person–can read my comment and see that it says exactly what I meant: you are an evil, nasty, immature person whose behavior to date would be consistent with posting malicious links. If you want to continue to carry on that I accused you of actually posting such a link, I doubt that anyone here would agree with you and you’ll just be throwing one of your laughable temper tantrums. But I did what I thought was appropriate, which was to warn people against you.

  165. By: Donna on September 30, 2012 at 5:38 PM

    The first sign of guilt and deception. Immediately try and distract and deflect and change the topic.

  166. There is no circumstance under which I would click on any link posted by Noah/Anonymous. Forewarned is forearmed, and he’s proven himself on many occasions here to be malicious

    Yes you did. People can read and think for themselves better than you give them credit for. You made a DIRECT implication. Prove it. You don’t have to show the link, put the date and time it was posted or admit your blatant lie. You really stepped in it this time Donna and it is time you were exposed.

  167. and, if convenient, would whoever posted about Noah/Anonymous being banned from another blog because of calling someone ‘n–r’ provide the details? I’m not familiar with that situation, but I do know how creepy he’s been to people here.

  168. I said you had proven yourself to be malicious–not that you had posted malicious links. However, your repeated malicious conduct has made me feel that you would do other malicious things, up to and including posting malicious links.

    You have spent at least two years on this blog insulting people, deliberately clogging the comments section, and in general behaving dreadfully. For the most part, you are just a juvenile jerk: trying to get rises out of people, projecting your own behavior onto them. But you’ve crossed the line into calling people “b-ch,” “c-t,” and, as I understand, “nig-r.” You are not someone to be trusted and it is because of your own behavior that I would never ever click on anything you posted here or want anyone else to do so.

    Keep your money–I never accused you of posting malicious links. I said that you are the sort of person who would do so. And, as you said earlier today, that is just calling a spade a spade.

    I don’t know whether you are mentally ill, although I have thought that on many occasions. I do know that you are a vicious bully. And I know that you are so lacking in maturity and respect for others that even after you were repeatedly banned, you came back on this blog for the sole purpose of causing trouble.

  169. Donna
    Calling you out. $500.00 donation to M&H if you can prove this statement

    Forewarned is forearmed, and he’s proven himself on many occasions here to be malicious. This is nothing to fool with.

    Show one malicious link, and the money will be donated. I make this bet knowing I have never done anything close to resembling this comment. Time to show everyone here who the real villain is.

  170. Folks: There is no circumstance under which I would click on any link posted by Noah/Anonymous. Forewarned is forearmed, and he’s proven himself on many occasions here to be malicious. This is nothing to fool with.

  171. a nice summery

  172. sidney
    You are a little thick. Don’t think I am sulking for myself, I am sulking for you. As I thought I made clear in my previous comment. What makes this all so laughable is that the joke is on all of you, and you are either unaware of not capable of grasping the concept. Either way I am not in the least bit sad or hurt. I have an open mind. I have made some harsh critiques of Romney because I want what is best for out country and my family. You put concerns for family and country behind concerns for party victory, your party owns you. That is the joke, that is what is worth laughing at, in a sad sort of way.

  173. Donna, thanks for the inside scoop on anon. His post where he sulked about all of us making fun of him reminded me of one of my children, who’s feelings were hurt and I got sucked into my “mom” role and tried to make “everything all better” sort of like kissing a tots boo-boo.

  174. thanks, Pi–great to see you. Hope your day improves.

  175. hehehe
    was supposed to be

    but maybe it works better after a beer run…

  176. Donna- Oy!
    Here we go again, eh? :-)
    Good one Gato…

    Yes, majun.

    And just cause I’m feeling cranky about whole lots of stuff this morning:

    Thank you Helen and Margaret for having us all in.

  177. The very fact you are taking so much time and effort to discredit me rather than my ideas I think proves conclusively that you cannot dispute my facts. It is worth noting that be it Glen or the CBO, the facts are equally ignored so I also state that it is conclusively proven the source is irreverent.

    No one here is capable of an objective conversation on Obama’s record. I want Romney raked over the coals before he is elected because I want to see that Presidential side to come out and I want to see he has the ability to prevail. The same holds true for Obama, though in this case there is the added component of a job review. He has to show us, but the merits of his performance, that he deserves another 4 years. Oddly, while you are willing to do this to Romney, you stubbornly refuse ANY discussion on Obama.

    We already know if the situations were reversed you would pitch a hissy-fit as you have over not seeing all of Romney’s tax returns. This is conclusive evidence of a double standard. You are absolutely within your rights to carry on with this double standard, but I will not apologize for calling a spade a spade where it is due. I hope one day you will open your minds and give both sides an equal critique. Unless anyone here claims that Obama did a perfect job these past 3-1/2 years, then you need to speak up and let him know what he needs to do better, and you do that by honestly evaluating his performance. Bottom line, do you own your party, or do they own you?

  178. Good one Donna. I, myself, am in the IGNORE ‘IT’ camp. But I will admit to having a bit of a chuckle watching ‘IT’ twist in the wind. ;)


    Mitt Romney’s Real Agenda

    If you want to understand Romney’s game plan, just look at what Republicans have been doing in Congress

    There is no longer any ambiguity about the path that Romney would pursue as president, because it’s the same trajectory charted by Ryan, the architect of the House GOP’s reactionary agenda since the party’s takeover in 2010. “Picking Ryan as vice president outlines the future of the next four or eight years of a Romney administration,” GOP power broker Grover Norquist exulted in August. “Ryan has outlined a plan that has support in the Republican House and Senate. You have a real sense of where Romney’s going.” In fact, Norquist told party activists back in February, the true direction of the GOP is being mapped out by congressional hardliners. All the Republicans need to realize their vision, he said, is a president “with enough working digits to handle a pen.”

    The GOP legislation awaiting Romney’s signature isn’t simply a return to the era of George W. Bush. From abortion rights and gun laws to tax giveaways and energy policy, it’s far worse. Measures that have already sailed through the Republican House would roll back clean-air protections, gut both Medicare and Medicaid, lavish trillions in tax cuts on billionaires while raising taxes on the poor, and slash everything from college aid to veteran benefits. In fact, the tenets of Ryan Republicanism are so extreme that they even offend the pioneers of trickle-down economics. “Ryan takes out the ax and goes after programs for the poor – which is the last thing you ought to cut,” says David Stockman, who served as Ronald Reagan’s budget director. “It’s ideology run amok.”

    PEACE ~ Δ

  179. Back in 1968 I got my first non farm, minimum wage job and made the princely sum of $1.60/hr. I just looked that up on BLS inflation calculator and you would have to earn $10.59/hr to have the same purchasing power today. The purchasing power of minimum wage has been falling ever since that date. The current rate is down over 25% since then. Imagine what the economy would look like if we increased the purchasing power of the people at the lower end of the economic scale by 25%.

  180. Sid, Gato, and other newbies: You’ve now seen what the old-timers here know. Noah/Anonymous is a classic troll. He doesn’t like the label but he has admitted to the criteria.

    He isn’t here to “discuss” or “debate,” much as he attacks others for not discussing or debating with him. He isn’t here to change anyone’s mind–he just said so. He is here, according to him, to keep saying things so that if things turn to crud, none of the porch dwellers can say “but I didn’t know.” And he claims that is his sole purpose, even though he has been saying the same junk for what must be two full years. He’s the crazed preacher on the corner with the “Repent–the end of the world is coming!” sign. I think of him as no better than any member of the Phelps family.

    What is fascinating is what his post last night and over the past few days say about Noah/Anonymous. He claims that people improperly reject his views because of the “source.” Well, any thinking person rejects information premised on unreliable sources–in fact, to do so is a sign of maturity and critical thinking. He claims that people engage in “personal attacks” rather than dealing with his views, which is laughable from someone who has called people here “b-tch,” “c-nt,” and I believe someone posted had called the host of another blog “nig-r.”

    This isn’t about any genuine interaction or anything done from a laudable purpose. That is a rationalization along the lines of Margie Phelps claiming that to disrupt a soldier’s funeral is “an act of love.” First of all, if the world went to hell, people aren’t going to be thinking “my goodness–that unpleasant man posted all of those annoying comments at an internet blog. He was right!” They aren’t going to do it any more than the family whose grief was exploited is going to think “dang–that Phelps family might have been on to something.”

    Second, one would think that, by now, he’d say “well, I told them. In fact, I told them for two years. Continuing to disrupt their blog when they obviously aren’t listening isn’t really accomplishing anything.” But instead, he continues to post silliness, to insult others for doing what he does on a regular basis, and to act like the monkey that jumps up and down and screeches. Monkey or member of Westboro Baptist–there’s not much separating the two.

    I choose to laugh at him–because he is ridiculous. Others choose to ignore him. But the one thing that can’t work is to give him the benefit of the doubt and try to engage him on an adult level.

  181. Ok Non let’s chop the shit on Obama’s record. He has a full majority for less then 4 months, the day he was sworn in 15 republicans got together for dinner and shot the shit on how to resume power, not how to,fix the country but how to FUCK Obama, and you and me and everyone you and I know and love TO REGAIN POLITICAL POWER. Jesus Christ even when bush stole the election and could barely speak English the democrates WORKED WITH HIM. But the GOP decided on a plan and their plan was to block everything that this administration did, because all their bullshit about this country being center right is a mirage. People like Medicare, SS. Call me a liberal but I am grateful that the only starving and homeless kids I see are on commercials. I believe that we can do wonderful amazing things together. When SS and Medicare were implemented the republicans predicted these programs would be the end of this country. They were wrong. These programs have been lifesavers for people. I remember when seniors were eating cat food because it was all they could afford. The wealthy have no need for government programs, and they don’t want them for anyone else. Karl Roves vision has always been to implement a one party rule and keep it intact for decades and he is pretty damn close. Voter suppression, voter fraud, citizens united, media propaganda and Koch brothers funded tea parties have brought him so close that he can taste it.
    Non, this country can either have all the money and power in the hands of a few plutocrats, or it can have a democracy. But it can’t have both.
    Your turn.

  182. PETA will punish you for picking on their pet primate!


  183. Sidney
    You have misunderstood me if you think I am here to change your mind. The fact you lack the ability to speak on Obama’s record tells me that you have a closed mind. There is not one person on here, not one, that I think I could sway their vote. No amount of truth, reason, or logic can persuade a person completely bereft of objectivity. My ONLY intent, is to see to it you know the truth, so when it all fails, you will not have the excuse of ignorance. That is the honest truth, take it or leave it.

  184. Oh Non. Now you really did it. I don’t know how, but your last post made me feel a little bad for you. Please keep in mind that we are all Americans, and we all want what’s best for,this country, we just have different ideas of what might get us there. I don’t hate people that disagree with me. I just feel they are blind to the truth, not MY truth but the actual truth. So we all do our best to support our causes and some of us (you) try too hard to convince someone, anyone to cross the isle and join the other side. I’m fairly new to this board, but the people here, including the bloggers are wicked smart, and they got that way by digging through the muck of bullshit and propaganda and and they discovered which side was truthful and wants what is best for EVERYBODY and which side is just throwing turds at the wall and seeing what sticks. And I would love to see you use your curiosity, take off the blinders, and stop running after every new turd the GOP throws.
    Did you read about the republican operative that Romney and the republican party hired to register voters in swing states were caught submitting fraudulent registrations? Hundreds of them.

  185. umgawa, Cheetah.

  186. That monkey has a particularly vacant look on it’s poor little toy face too, doncha think?!
    ….la la la la la…. Oh, sorry, stepping on his lines!!

  187. I am flattered that I have reduced you all to insults and childish videos. This is the best you all have to offer. So by all means continue, I will enjoy the laugh, know it is on you, even if you don’t.

  188. I am on the floor laughing. I think that should be a regular feature here to cut off our resident monkey.

  189. Hey Donna, this one is better:

    Check out this video on YouTube:

    Bo, sometime I’m going to learn to embed HTML (much more elegant!) but I am too lazy tonite!!

  190. Yeah Sidney, that’s the guy Clint Eastwood talks to: the Kenyan socialist Muslim ‘merikun hatin’ imposter (heavy mouth breathing here)! They can’t hear OUR Mr President speaks, but it would really help if they would pull their fingers out of their ears and stop shouting I CANT HEAR YOU la la la la la la I CAN’T HEAR YOU!

    And Donna, I’m looking up a Peter Gabriel video for you (Shock the Monkey), that I will link when I find it! But my gin and tonic is interfering with my typing…. Almost as much as my laughing at Gato’s smackdown! What fun!

  191. Well, you certainly have been taking your snide pills as prescribed! You’re smarmtastic and smugtacular today, cupcake.

  192. Naa, no such thing as voter fraud, despite 31 states making convictions in the last 18 months, oh and this.


  193. Gato: Do you think you could find a video of one of those wind-up monkeys with the cymbals? I would be ever so grateful if you would link it.

  194. Oh, I was here long ago and I assure you–he’s a troll. Just looking for attention and to stir people up. I’d have thought he’d have found something to occupy his time but he apparently hasn’t. But you are right–he’s laughable. Throw him a few peanuts and he’ll do his little screechy dance and pound on his tambourine. And maybe an occasional scratch at a few fleas.

  195. Probably the best presentation of the kind of arguments that dominates this blog and liberal blogs everywhere.

  196. Very well said. I especially like the line near the end about western liberals.

  197. Donna, I didn’t want to refer to Non as a troll, because I don’t want him to get insulted and go away, he is just too much fun! But he does seem to be a rightwinger and in the bag for Romney. He also has bought the imaginary Obama, an Obama that only exists in the imaginations of all dutiful republicans.

  198. Sidney (and I like your comments). I don’t know that it was a GOP slam. But it sure was appropriate for the resident screeching monkey.

  199. OMG Gato…that was just so piss in my pants funny. I laughed so hard, I cried, couldn’t see shit and it took me 15 minutes to read. I tried to read it again but I only made it half way through and had to get up and get a tissue. I swear to god…that was the funniest GOP slam that I ever read.

  200. Gato: You are VERY funny! When did you start coming here? I am sure it wasn’t more than a few months ago–I would have remembered you.

  201. Seems Romney is doing well where it counts.


  202. Oh, Non, you are SUCH a silly! I can always count on a good chuckle when I see that blank space at the top of a post that indicates it must be you. So empty! And, yet, so full of nothingness!

    And every time one anyone replies to you, we know we’re just throwing a few more peanuts at the organ grinder’s monkey – it’s so much fun! And we love it, because every time we do, that monkey just keeps twirling around again and again, and jumping up and down, making funny monkey noises, and grabbing those peanuts, in his bright little multi-colored satin suit with the sparkly ruff around the neck, and the little gilded collar and chain that attaches him to the organ grinder! It’s just too adorable! My goodness, but that little monkey works hard! And for peanuts! And we have so many peanuts – he just keeps grabbing them, and jumping and twirling… He just can’t seem to stop! (But, of course, he’s… The organ grinder’s monkey…)

    Oh, but wait! I think I see another side show attraction over there…! Wow! It’s the “Two-Headed Lizard Boy”… I’m so sorry, little monkey; I just have to see that, too.


  203. Hey Anon, here’s a concept for you: sometimes people here agree with each other, and they enjoy starting a conversation regarding the points the other person made and sharing ideas. They also might want to compliment a particularly well written post and interesting post. It’s how civil people behave. You might want to try it sometime.

  204. gato, sidney, circular validation…check

    troll reference…check

    Attack the messenger, ignore the topic….check

    Disconnected and inappropriate Hitler reference….check

    Just another substantive packed day. Well done kids.

  205. “…know them by their deeds…”

    “Republicans have a hard time getting certain people to vote for them…so life would be a lot easier if certain people weren’t allowed to vote at all.”

    *‘Certain people’ could be black, brown, old, poor, student, gay, etc…

    The true story of 96 year old Dorothy Cooper.

    PEACE ~ Δ

  206. WOW!!!!

    Sidney, that is POWERFUL!!! Brilliant truth on so many levels – love it, and it scares the bejeezus out of me, too… Brilliant.


  207. Gato, you know what people like Non and his ilk remind me of? They are like millions of Americans who live in nice middle class neighborhoods that have multi-cultural families next door. And they hate the neighbor next store, maybe he is blah, or the wrong religion, or the wrong nationality. And one day, much to their delight, upon arriving home they see their neighbors house on fire. It’s burning like a mother, and their in the street, happy as they can be. Their neighbor is finally getting what’s coming to them, so they dance, they laugh and they thank the gods of karma for being on their side. But there is something they don’t see. Something they don’t notice. In their celebratory joy, they don’t notice that the flames have spread to their own house. And now there is no one left to call the fire department.

  208. HI,l Sidney – You beat me to the punch on this one; well done!

    Obviously, contributing time, attention, energy, and vast personal resources to help out an associate in distress is a good and admirable thing to do – and you have certainly not given the impression that you feel any other way about that.

    The fact that Romney would cut so many social programs, which would directly impact the families of STRANGERS in exactly the same position as his business partner was, is a reminder that many people can, and will, do extraordinary things to help someone close to them, and simultaneously feel that doing the same for someone they DON’T know is not their responsibility. To have someone with that mind set deciding national policy should be a frightening possibility to anyone outside Romney’s “inner circle”… And I think it is becoming more and more clear that it is.

    Actually, I think that perhaps one reason Romney has been so “modest” about his compassionate acts is that he knows only too well that a great number of his “base” feels exactly as “Non” apparently does: Do one good deed, and then all those crack-head, ne-er do well, 47% moochers and lay-abouts are going to expect the same from you! Romney certainly can’t let the “base” think he might be guilty of some modicum of compassion for EVERYONE, for heaven’s sake. That would “destroy our great country”! (And it would be too much like, you know, Jesus, or Buddha, and all those other well-known crackpots who were always going on about helping out “the least of these”…) We just can’t have THAT kind of thing going on around here, can we?

    If the story had been about Romney’s doing something similar for the illegitimate child of his neighbor’s foreign-born housekeeper, or the grandchild of the sixty-seven-year old “greeter” at his local Walmart, who also works the late shift at Home Depot, it might have some relevance to the nation at large… As it is, it points up not only Romney’s willingness to help out a friend… But how much “better” it is, in this country, to be incredibly rich and well-connected.


  209. Lord, he’s overfed to the point of being fat and sassy! Needs to be sent to the slaughterhouse!

  210. How good a person does? There have been all throughout history, maniacs and murders that did something nice for 1 person and hurt millions. Even hitler loved Eva Braun and his dog.

  211. Thanks, Mageen–good to see you. Continued good thoughts to you and your husband.

    I see that the former resident troll is still here. Can we not feed him?

  212. yes sidney, by getting them hooked on the welfare so the Dimocrat party will have their generational votes.

    Just goes to show no matter how good a person does, for some bigoted people, it is never enough. Just a shame some cannot recognize good when it is done.

  213. Hey, that’s great. Maybe Romney will help your cracked-kid one day. The other side is looking to help EVERYONE’S cracked out kids, prevent cracked out kids from getting cracked out in the first place, and help everyone to move up and out of crackville.

  214. Good people are measured by their deeds, not their rhetoric.


  215. Donna, long time no see! Welcome back to the pie eaters on the porch! Have also wondered about Craig. So many of the porch dwellers were helpful when my husband got his diagnosis. He is still with us, putting one foot in front of the other every day, doing what he can and participating in every experimental cancer treatment program his specialist can think of. I wish he would eat more. He is down to high school teen years skinny. I’m doing all the cooking from scratch. Had no idea I knew how to make so many things from so little! I can say that there is one thing that is most likely really keeping him going: this election! He is from a the deep south conservative culture and he cannot stand Romney. Says he knew guys like him in the south. They were controllers to the nth degree. Their idea of conserving was to keep the poor poorer and the rich richer as a result of the former. Hubby and his siblings got out of the south the first chance that came along. So here he is, glued to the TV to catch anything electoral. I try to volunteer as much as I can at the local Obama office. Its an elixir for me inasmuch as the challenger,plus all his gaffes, and the GOP’s dedication to voter suppression has had the effect of rocket fuel for volunteers. Must go now. Early morning. Have to whip up something nutritional for breakfast. Cheers, y’all!

  216. Hi Donna,

    Good to ‘see’ ya. The porch has been hoppin’ and the ‘new’ crowd is great.

    Anyway…Damned skewed polls.
    . ;)

    PEACE ~ Δ

  217. Hi, Sidney – You are a wonder. Thanks for all your good sense, your wonderful research, your just putting out facts and real information.

    Sometimes I get so weary of replying to my Texan brother-in-law, begging him to check out snopes before he sends out ridiculous emails from several years ago… It’s tiring, and Im not giving up on doing it.

    Hang tough, Friend!


  218. now these are good…..

  219. Two words, my adorable UAW: electoral college.

    Nate Silver factors Ras into his statistical model. Intrade reflects the market, which one would expect also would consider Ras.

  220. LMAO again Donna….don’t you wish!!!!!!!!


  221. LMAO….

  222. Gato, in 2009 the justice department discovered over 30,000 Americans were guilty of tax evasion, by keeping money in swiss bank accounts. The justice dept. offered all of them amnesty if they would pay all past due taxes that were owed to the government. In order to,avoid prosecution the majority complied. This only involved one Swiss bank. It was the same bank,that Romney kept his money in. His 2009 taxes would of had this on it.

  223. hello, porch dwellers–been a very long time since I’ve commented. I’d stopped by a few times and things had really gone downhill with a few trolls. To my great pleasure, it looks like some of the original crowd has come back. Hello, Peas, Easier, Auntie Jean, and Alaskapi!! Also looks like UAW is his endearingly crusty self–good to see you, sir. And there are some interesting newbies–hello to you. Anyone heard from Craig and how his Val is doing?

    Fall weather is here and it’s beautiful. Intrade has President Obama edging up to 80% and Nate Silver has the President over that. Polls show that GWB is more favorably regarded than Romney. Paul Ryan apparently didn’t deliver anything, including Wisconsin. And Ohio seems to be going Obama. I’m encouraged but not taking anything for granted. Certainly, we can be grateful that the Republicans nominated such a truly bad candidate.

  224. Sidney and Jorge
    Considering who Florida elected for governor is it any wonder this is going on! And the GOP had the nerve to accuse ACORN of registration fraud. Were they getting rid of the competition?? If I remember correctly didn’t FL passed some tough registration laws making it difficult for community groups to register voters. Now lets see if anyone is held “responsible”…..since they are so fond of saying it about others.


  225. Hi, Sidney – You would think it should be that death knell, huh, if it is true.

    Cynic, and sometimes conspiracy-theorist that I can be, I still find this all hard to believe… (Not that I’m denying it, let me be sure to add!!) What is hard for me to believe is that some other people are SO DIFFERENT from myself! That some people are so easily willing to lie and cheat and expect that their great wealth can, and will, trump all…

    I think this is what people have been sensing about Romney and his corporate backers – that he, and they, think they can buy anyone and everything, because that’s just the way it is. (I know that Obama, too, has wealthy backers, and the Kennedys were incredibly wealthy, too. But no one has played this game with so little conscience and soul as this bunch… Not even the Bushes. Not since the Robber Barons…)

    And if this does “take down” the Romney campaign, what happens then? How do we “average Americans” deal with the fact that we have been duped by a system whose goal is to deny us the rights and responsibilities we have always felt are ours? This is a hard question! And it will take all of our strength to deal with it. I hope we have that strength… I’d bet that you do!

    As for myself, I’m finding all of this a little scary – No… Big time scary. But I keep reminding myself that a nation is not a corporation; that we are not employees of our government; that the members of our government are meant to be OUR employees; and that, if they lie, cheat, attempt to buy our favor while giving us nothing, they should be – and will be – fired. Just as Romney said, he “enjoys firing people who don’t do their jobs.” Exactly!



  226. Jorge, I am a Floridian and I was aware of this GOP voter fraud scheme when the story first broke locally. This story is going to blow up . The actual story is much deeper then the media is showing. This dude was a known fraudsters and made several shell corporations to do his dirty business. Romney hired this guy, paid him the big bucks all the time knowing his history. I am looking foward to see how the rightwingers are going to try to spin this. This might be the death knell for the Romney campaign.

  227. And speaking of voter fraud.


  228. $40 billion whopper


  229. Thanks, Whirled! Got it… I’m heading off early next week to spend a bunch of days in the Pacific NW with my best GFF – the one who turned me on to M&H, as a matter of fact. We’ve been friends for more than forty years ourselves. She’s also quite computer-savvy (like you) and we’re looking forward to spending some good geek time… As well as taking long walks, cuddling with her dog, and discussing the possible fate of this great nation…

    I, too, love M&H and Matthew, and all the terrific people who’ve taken a seat on their porch!


  230. Hey Gato,

    Linking is easy, fun and a great way to get your point across. You can (like uaw) just copy and paste the web address for the article you want to link…


    …or you can use HTML to embed it like I do. It takes some practice and is pretty straight forward but must be exact for it to work correctly.

    Follow either link for instructions:

    Here is the HTML you use to create hyperlinks.

    *approx 2 PgDns

    Good luck!

    PEACE ~ Δ

    PS: Glad you find my input helpful. I luv M&H and Matthew!

  231. You don’t need to put your hands over your ears if your head is in the sand, nor is it very easy to yell. And, if you are an ostrich, you don’t even have hands. So there.

  232. Gato here one more time, Whirled (and other porch sitters),

    Your link led me to poke around and see what other bits might be out there in the ether, about voter fraud and candidate Romney. Something interesting popped up, written mid-August by a writer for The Guardian (UK) about a possible reason Romney has refused to release his earlier Federal tax forms: That his stated address on those forms was not Massachusetts, when he was running for Kennedy’s seat, but was California… In which case he would not have been legitimately allowed to vote in Massachusetts – which he did.

    Okay; that’s just one writer’s theory, and “theories” of all sorts certainly abound these days… But it would sure be interesting to see those returns, wouldn’t it? Romney has “said” that he was “living in the basement” of his son Tagg’s home in Massachusetts – which is, in itself, kind of hard to believe, unless you can think that maybe he and Ann wanted to revisit some of their cherished “tuna on the ironing board” days. Or maybe every Romney home, wherever, has such an accommodating basement that living in one is no hardship at all…

    The bottom line is that his refusal to release more tax forms seems just INEXPLICABLE, given the ruckus it continues to cause… Unless doing so might indicate that Romney himself committed voter fraud – a criminal offense… Now THAT would be a damned good reason for him to put up with so much to keep them hidden.

    (Some day I’m going to learn how to include actual links myself, which you do with such skill and wonderful regularity!)


  233. How to quickly detect a flawed argument to save yourself a little time. If their only defense is the source the source the source, skip their post. That is the battle cry if the ostrich clan, heads firmly planted in the sand, hands covering their ears, yelling I win, I win, I win!!!

    Note the $40 billing printing and destruction of the middle class went ignored. Let the excuses, or silence, commence.

  234. Hi, Whirled – I’d learned this morning that the GOP had fired this gang, but to read about it on a page that seems to be asking for money to support Republicans is kind of mind-blowing, to say the least. Also read the article in The Nation – hardly a “progressive” publication! The fact that the GOP itself seems to be calling out fraud by its own candidate indicates, to me, something that has been suspected for quite some time: That plenty of the Repubs have not been happy with candidate Romney (and now Ryan, lord help them) for quite some time, and are perfectly willing to throw him under the proverbial bus in a desperate attempt to regroup themselves in a try for Congressional seats and, eventually, 2016. They know the alleged supremacy of the “doughy white guys” will soon be obliterated by the relentless ticking of the Changing Demographic Scale in this country, and that their time is short, if it hasn’t already passed…

    And I suspect that Romney, the somewhat sheltered dude he seems to have been for most of his life, probably had no idea this could possibly happen to him… I have to say that I feel kind of sorry for Romney at this point – in the same way I “felt sorry” for Bernie Madoff – people who are blindly convinced that their money, their connections, and their “power” are untouchable… Especially by any of the “little people”…

    Fox should be interesting tonight, if they even dare to mention it. If they do, I’m sure it will be spun around how “shocked” Romney is to learn that Sproul has any record of foul behavior, and how firing him just shows how moral and upright the candidate really is. (I’m ready for that; got out my supply of air sickness bags and put them right by the TV…)

    Thanks for the link; you’re good!


  235. Jesus F en christ, now you post something from THE BLAZE! From Glenn beck! You are trying to get us to see something that doesn’t exist! A liberal mainstream media is in your head. And on fox news. Glenn beck. Rush Limbaugh. What do you expect to gain from posting this shitt? That one of us is going to say “oh my god….your right!! How could I not have KNOWN that only rightwing nutjobs were telling the truth” . Is that what you are going for? It ain’t gonna happen. The posters that you are talking to are intelligent, open minded, free thinking Americans. And we love our country. We don’t hate you the way you seem to hate us. We are just baffled, just so baffled that facts, real facts can not penetrate the bubble that you live in. And we are sick of trying to pop it. You are a minority, almost extinct…and the truth of that shocks you. You really should drop the requirement from the GOP that you must believe everything they say based on blind faith, because they want you to be blind for a reason.

  236. Yes Terri…..
    ” who come to this site with a totally dishonest premise to their argument, and then expect the rest of us to argue with them on those terms. ”
    but who’s being dishonest??????

    MSNBC in another Video Scandal; this time altering audio..is it time for these people to be called out?


  237. Fact, 31 states in the last 18 months have made voter fraud convictions, not claims, but tried and convicted.

  238. Sidney “Jorge, it is obvious that anon is suffering from a severe case Obama delusion syndrome which is spreading like wildfire through the weak-minded rightwingers.”

    What is delusional thinking the $40 billion a month our government is printing is going to hurt the middle class terribly?

  239. LOOK…Voter Fraud,


    The GOTP has found voter fraud going on.
    Turns out Mitt and the RNC are paying million$ for it.

    PEACE ~ Δ

  240. You know what’s annoying? The rightwingers who come to this site with a totally dishonest premise to their argument, and then expect the rest of us to argue with them on those terms. Example: pretending someone is asking the government to pay for their birth control. No matter how many times it’s explained to them that we have private medical insurance coverage in this country, they persist in pretending something that is patently false simply because they want to paint themselves as being put upon. What a waste of time these people are.

    On another note, I’ve been enjoying all the posts lately, especially Evelyn and sidney’s replies to Anon. Truly witty. Thanks for the laughs.

  241. I think anon 12:23 makes a good point. While I may not be interested in his recipe, he is spot on about previous Presidents. They got a lot more done with far less than what Obama had, especially in Obama’s first two years, and I cannot even remember one time where they spent most of their time using the previous administration as an excuse for their failures.

  242. Jorge, it is obvious that anon is suffering from a severe case Obama delusion syndrome which is spreading like wildfire through the weak-minded rightwingers. But there is a cure for that, so all is not hopeless. He needs to take 2 tax cuts with a warm mug of deregulation and call REALITY in the morning. But he must do this right away, before his brain rots even more.

  243. make that 27,600 results

  244. Anonymous on September 28, 2012
    at 2:04 AM

    Wow!! That one took 0.61 seconds to find 2,00 results on Google

  245. Hypocrisy: Demanding that government stay out of your bedroom and your womb while simultaneously demanding that they pay for your birth control and abortions.

  246. I’ve got a new recipe on how to bake an Obama pie. It’s fairly easy. Add six trillion cups of sugar to give you a high that will later cause a crash. Add one entitlement package. Name brand Obamacare. You have to put it in the pie first before you can find out what’s in it. This will cause your pie to be a lot more expensive but don’t worry, people will be forced to buy and eat it just the same. Then stimulate your pie by adding a trillion cups more of sugar. This will keep it artificially inflated. Don’t use the oven to bake this pie it’s bad for the environment. Use Solyndra solar power to heat it. When you’re finished the pie should still be cold b/c Solyndra is bankrupt and no longer exists but it’s OK b/c it was well intended. When it’s ready to be served give everyone food stamps to purchase it and of course, distribute the pie evenly so that everyone gets an equal share.
    ::Caution:: This pie causes side effects of vomiting. Buyers remorse is expected eventually but not with all. Some like the taste of shit.

    Regan never blamed Carter on anything. Ronald Regan inherited a HUGE mess but work with Tip O’Neil to get things done. Other presidents in history took the job and got things done. Kennedy, Clinton, Roosevelt etc,,This is the ONLY Administration that blames everybody else except themselves, We’ve NO LEADERSHIP in the White House.

  247. No Evelyn. I did not think Irish Noah was funny.
    It was a rat bastard thing to do.
    Whupping someone’s hiney over their ideas is one thing.
    Using sleight of hand with copied avatars and the like to play nasty games is another .
    The latter stinks/stunk.
    Not that Noah’s endless horsepunky doesn’t stink and get roll your eyeballs back in your head tiring, boring, and irritating .

  248. Hi Congenial Gang,

    This is a “cut-n-paste” jobbie e mail I received some time ago from a great friend, like so many of you here at M&H’s. Makes sense to me!

    “Some good parallels to European military history in the face of recent terror threats…


    The English are feeling the pinch in relation to recent events in Syria and have therefore raised their security level from “Miffed” to “Peeved.” Soon, though, security levels may be raised yet again to “Irritated” or even “A Bit Cross.” The English have not been “A Bit Cross” since the blitz in 1940 when tea supplies nearly ran out. Terrorists have been re-categorized from “Tiresome” to “A Bloody Nuisance.” The last time the British issued a “Bloody Nuisance” warning level was in 1588, when threatened by the Spanish Armada.

    The Scots have raised their threat level from “Pissed Off” to “Let’s get the Bastards.” They don’t have any other levels. This is the reason they have been used on the front line of the British army for the last 300 years.

    The French government announced yesterday that it has raised its terror alert level from “Run” to “Hide.” The only two higher levels in France are “Collaborate” and “Surrender.” The rise was precipitated by a recent fire that destroyed France ‘s white flag factory, effectively paralysing the country’s military capability.

    Italy has increased the alert level from “Shout Loudly and Excitedly” to “Elaborate Military Posturing.” Two more levels remain: “Ineffective Combat Operations” and “Change Sides”.

    “The Germans have increased their alert state from “Disdainful Arrogance” to “Dress in Uniform and Sing Marching Songs.”

    Belgians, on the other hand, are all on holiday as usual; the only threat they are worried about is NATO pulling out of Brussels .

    The Spanish are all excited to see their new submarines ready to deploy. These beautifully designed subs have glass bottoms so the new Spanish navy can get a really good look at the old Spanish navy.

    Australia, meanwhile, has raised its security level from “No worries” to “She’ll be alright, Mate.” Two more escalation levels remain: “Crikey! I think we’ll need to cancel the barbie this weekend!” and “The barbie is cancelled.”
    So far no situation has ever warranted use of the last final escalation level.

    Written by John Cleese – British writer, actor and tall person. A final thought. Greece is collapsing, the Iranians are getting aggressive, and Rome is in disarray. Welcome back to 430 BC.”

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam. Peace.

    Auntie Jean

  249. This has been a busy day on this blog porch dwellers! Appreciate all your comments, well, especially the ones I don’t skip. Took me back to 4 years ago when I first discovered Margaret and Helen! It was a bustling and interesting place and I feel like we are back there again. Many people have come and gone but the spirit of the blog remains the same, thanks to Helen posting with renewed vigor with Margaret chiming in sometimes, to our delight. I appreciate Helen sharing her views with us, her humanity with us.

    It really helps me to come here to understand that I am not alone in the way I perceive the country and the world we live in. It does get depressing where I live, people’s perspectives are just so different from mine.

  250. Well, Evelyn – I’ll gladly take your hand with that discrediting, and honored that you include me. Think that’s what the porch is all about, is it not?

    I’m loving the way this blog is going. Now let’s just all get out there and make sure people can vote! All kinds of people; all of our sisters and brothers. Things are looking promising, but let’s not slack off.


  251. Right, Noah–very impressive. About as “well-crafted” as a bowel movement.

    Does anyone remember how funny it was when Irish Noah started posting as Noah? He imitated the pomposity and the stupidity and the histrionics so perfectly. It was a thing of beauty.

  252. See previous comment. The source: Google. The search: the first sentence of “your” list. The result: proof that you plagiarized.

    If you had anything more than a elementary level of google search you will find that list appears on dozens of blogs. You will also note the post in question had more than the list yet you painted the entire post plagiarized then refused to post a link backing your claim. You got busted telling a lie pure and simple.

    You did this because you could not defeat a very sound argument that the post made. But what is the reputation of a known liar for distracting from a well crafted argument.

  253. Anyone who has any understanding of economics could not cast an Obama vote. This printing of $40 billion a month devalues the dollar. This means that the cost of everything we buy day to day will cost more. The 50% of the nation who are on some form of government assistance will call out for more help because what they were getting no longer gets them through the month. So the government will print more to give more, the dollar devalues more, and it is an endless cycle into economic oblivion.

  254. How splendid! I shall fo to sleep chuckling! Thank you!

  255. actually, Gramp–before I head over, I should correct something. Noah/Anonymous is not Tex. Tex could be a raging and obnoxious wildman but he was smart. Major difference.

  256. He’s just not as big and brave and smart as he’d like to be, bless his pathetic little heart! And the chief warrant officer would eat him for lunch-’cept there’s not much left after you n Gato have mauled him about a bit! You two ARE something, and you do us great credit – all the while demonstrating how to take em apart! Marvelous!

  257. Gramp: on my way–thanks!

  258. Evelyn on September 27, 2012 at 8:09 PM

    Noah/Tex/Anon tried that crap on Stone Kettle Station and got handed his ass in a sling. Check out Jim Wright’s latest post and you’ll see how he deals with obnoxious trolls. It’s a hoot.

  259. Oh, and Gato–you and I must be quite something: the two of us gals managing to “discredit” the entire progressive movement. Were that the case, Noah–a troll, plagiarizer, vicious bigot, and coward–has discredited the entire conservative movement. Fortunately for it, there are many fine folks–Noah is just not among them.

  260. See previous comment. The source: Google. The search: the first sentence of “your” list. The result: proof that you plagiarized.

    See, Noah–this isn’t your blog (yours was a complete failure because nobody cared what you thought or had to say). It’s not a question of posting a link or not posting a link. I provided the source. And, in fact, you admitted that you copied the list. So, I didn’t lie…not one iota. You, sad loser that you are, are trying to deflect from the fact that you, yet again, stole someone else’s thoughts and words. And that is about what one would expect from someone who calls another person “n–r.”

    My work here is done. I have again exposed you for the miserable charlatan that you are. And the coward–still haven’t gone to Stonekettle, have you? Nope–if it’s an unmoderated blog, you can pretend to be a big man. Of course you aren’t fooling anyone but yourself.

  261. gatodicima on September 27, 2012
    at 8:22 PM

    wow this was called in advance weeks about how this group validates each other. Word for word how they dismiss out of hand, followed by thanking the hosts. A visionary, or just utterly predictable? You decide.

    It is interesting when the topic is of Romney, you engage engage engage. Turn it to Obama, and a higher spiritual calling prevents you from being able to respond LMAO!!! This is how you tell when you are dealing with dishonest folks. No worries, between you and Evelyn, you destroy any credibility the Progressive movement might have had.

    Evelyn, your not providing a link because you were busted telling a lie. Period! Anything you might respond with other than proof is just an excuse.

  262. Go.To.Google.


    Voila…your entire list. Verbatim. Reproduced as though it was yours.

    And I am now done–until the next time there is a chance that someone might be misled into thinking that you actually were posting here in good faith and were not the miserable excuse for a human being that called another person a “n—r.”

    Why not try your hand at Stonekettle? Or is trying to disrupt an un-moderated blog the best you can do?

  263. Evelyn
    Sorry I must have misread you. I thought you said you had proof it was plagiarized.

  264. Gato: you rock.

  265. Hey, Avoid…

    WHAT?!? I am such a posting newbie; please advise.


  266. HI, Evelyn – The desperation is so apparent, and so poignant. I WISH I could reply, and I can’t, so I won’t. I’ve been in a twelve-step program for many years, and some of the most important things I’ve learned there are that (1) I didn’t cause it; (2) I can’t control it; and (3) I can’t cure it.

    It breaks my heart to see someone flailing around so desperately, praying that SOMEONE will take the bait, and will try to answer at least one of the interminable questions with which Non’s posts always conclude. There is no response which will be deemed acceptable; no reply that will be sufficient; no link that will lead Non to say, “Oh, yes; that’s a good point.”

    I wish I could help, and I can’t. As far as I can tell, those of us who respond to Non are seen by him or her only as possible lifelines – something to which he/she might cling for a moment or two, in a desperate effort to be heard.

    Getting a little spiritual here, but that’s how I see it. I am so grateful to M&H, and Matthew, and to my greatest Soul Sister in the entire Universe (who doesn’t post here, BTW), for leading me to this blog, and to all of you who put your hearts and souls and your great wisdom into every one of your comments. I actually “know” absolutely none of you, and yet I feel that many of you are truly my sisters and brothers.

    Always great to share some porch time!


  267. The anonymous troll here has been shunned from a cesspool of a blog for calling the disabled black host a n*gger. Feed him at your own risk.

  268. JC: Noah is a coward. He doesn’t have the nerve to take on Stonekettle.

  269. Large sigh, that was WHILE he’s at it, this phone….!!

  270. You got MY attention earlier! Wish they’d go try their luck at Stonekettle Station and we could all see Jim chew em up, spit em out and rip em a new anal orifice which he’s at it! Oh well, I can dream… And I’m still going to cancel, negate, nullify old uaw’s vote :D

  271. Noah–you are so predictable and so boring. I forget who pointed out that you wore out your welcome at another blog. Gee–wonder why? Maybe because you have nothing to say and are just looking for attention? As for providing a link, you are the person who has said for however long you have been bothering people “do your own research.” My point was that the list was plagiarized (which you admit). And you–who constantly gibbers about integrity–didn’t disclose that.

    I am perfectly courteous to people here, including those with whom I don’t always agree (like UAW). You’re just the proverbial turd in the punch bowl. I don’t want anyone to mistake you for anyone posting in good faith, or with any interest in discussion. Hiding as “Anonymous” won’t cut it.

  272. Evelyn you could provide us with a link to show that this was a plagiarized post? I have seen that list on a half dozen blogs but the rest seems original. Appreciate it thanks.

  273. I have never made that post before Evelyn. Could you please clear all the hostility off the blog please. Some of us want this to be a pleasant place and you continually ruin it for others with your personal attacks and vulgarity. Thanks for your consideration.

  274. Oh, and I should have pointed out (took me exactly 2 seconds to google) that the troll continues to plagiarize. It’s not even capable of its own thoughts.

  275. Repeat post by troll. Please ignore. We will get rid of this asswipe.

  276. In the last 18 months there have been prosecutions of voter fraud in 31 states. Look at how close Bush/Gore was. What if this election is that close?

    That aside, we are a modern society. Look at all of the things we have that those poor people cannot have access too because they do not have a valid form of identification. If we would require people to vote, and states helped these poor people get their ID, look at all the good it would do getting them their identification.

    1. Boarding an airplane
    2. Writing a check
    3. Cashing a check
    4. Using a credit card
    5. Driving a motor vehicle
    6. Applying for a business license
    7. Applying for permission to hold a protest or rally
    8. Securing employment
    9. Purchasing a house or real estate
    10. Renting a domicile
    11. Renting a motor vehicle
    12. Purchasing a firearm (Includes BB guns)
    13. Applying for a hunting license (waived for 16 and 17 year olds when their legal guardian provides a photo ID)
    14. Applying for a fishing license (waived for 16 and 17 year olds when their legal guardian provides a photo ID)
    15. Purchasing alcoholic beverages
    16. Purchasing tobacco or products that contain nicotine
    17. Purchasing a motor vehicle
    18. Initial registration of a motor vehicle
    19. Applying for a building permit
    20. Receiving prescription medicine
    21. Purchasing OTC medicine that contains pseudoephedrine
    22. Serving on jury duty
    23. Getting a bank account
    24. Cash transactions of $5000.00 or greater
    25. Sales tax exemption for people aged 80 and above
    26. To get into Warner Bros., Sony Entertainment, and Universal Pictures.
    27. To get into most large office buildings in NYC.
    28. Check out a book from a public library
    29. To receive food stamps

    I have a hard time imagining why Democrats would want to keep the poor from being able to do any of the above, it just doesn’t make sense.

  277. isn’t it nice that the SEIU can pay demonstrators $11.00 an hour….

  278. Damn antivirus….the sidney and blue were mine……

  279. hey Sidney…congrats on your daughters…….they must have got it from their dad tho…..

  280. no colorado blue …I don’t think people should die from cancer(like my wife)…I think people should pay for their snotty noses tho, or their hangnail, or their thumb when they hit it with a hammer…..and not have my taxes pay for it…..

  281. Notice Romny never mentions it was the Bush Republicans that got us into this mess or that when the whole world is in a resession that it`s impossible for one country to pull out of it alone. It`t a slow process. Can you imagine where we would be if Obama had lost in the last electoin? UGH!!!!

  282. With enthusiasm!

  283. Hi, Julie – Thanks for the tip; I’ll pass it on. There’s also another vodka, called Blu, that we can sometimes find, but not often.

    I’m really loving this porch crowd. How about a big shoutout to M&H and Matthew!?


  284. Hi, Cynthia – LOVE IT, LOVE IT, LOVE IT!!!

    Don’t you think Mittens really wishes he could somehow get out of this whole thing, and that he hadn’t chosen that Palin-minus-lipstick for his… “running mate”? Romney probably enjoyed such a nice life before all this… I hope he goes back to that soon.


  285. My husband loves that Skyy ginger vodka! Try the ginger lemonade recipe that comes with the bottle, it is very good!

    Sent from my iPhone

  286. A man is walking along the beach and he trips on a magic lamp, he polishes it off and a genie comes out.
    “I will grant you one wish” says the genie.
    The man thinks for a while and he finally says, “You know, I’ve always wanted to go to Hawaii, but I’ve been too scared to fly on a plane, and boats always make me seasick, so I want you to make a bridge to Hawaii.”
    The genie replies, “Are You Crazy!?!? That would be almost impossible, do you know how deep the ocean is, that would be such a long drive, it just isn’t structurally possible. Make another wish”
    The guy thinks again and then he says, “Could you make Mitt Romney do well in his debate with President Obama?”
    The genie looks at him dumbfounded and finally says, “Do you want that bridge two lane or four?”


  287. Hi, JC – I’m sure you are as qualified a porch sitter as just about anybody else, dontcha think? I could use a good glass of lemonade right about now… Maybe with a shot of vodka tossed in, as well… It’s that time of day around here.

    It was really great to read so many terrific posts today. I never really got that connection – or disconnect – between the “deficit” and a “budget”, until my husband and I had our little talk last evening. As so many have said here, of course you can’t pay off outstanding debt until you are in a position to keep up with your own essential living expenses first, and then make paying down your debt a PART of your overall budget, not the first priority.

    One of the real tragedies, in my opinion, for so many families here, is that they have lost their incomes because their jobs were outsourced, or the companies for which they worked decided to “restructure”, in order to enhance their bottom lines, and make them more appealing to stockholders.
    And then, of course, credit card companies, and other lenders, saw their chance, and offered these suffering families even more credit, even more opportunities to borrow ahead, at often usurious interest rates. And all that permitted by the “free market”, which must not be constrained by any kind of dreaded government regulation, ever. (You don’t keep a leash on the market, and this is what you get.)

    Personal note: My husband and I have always had excellent credit ratings, and have several credit cards we use all the time. One of them is an American Express card. We sent in a payment that evidently arrived ONE DAY “LATE”, the first deadline we had missed in almost twenty years. (We’d been on vacation.) As a result of that, our interest rate on that card jumped up to 30% for a three month “probation period.” We called AMEX and asked for some slack. They were so sorry they couldn’t do a thing about it. So what did we do? We took those AMEX cards out of our wallets, put them in the back of our desk drawers, and didn’t touch them for three months.

    Now we use those cards only at our local Costco, which only accepts AMEX, for whatever reasons. So AMEX, having gotten plenty of use from us prior to their decision, got absolutely zip for all the time they deemed us “probationary”. Wonder how that worked out for them…?

    There seems to be a really wicked plan afoot here – and, yes, I will use that word: First, strip people of any possibility of earning a living wage. Then, when you’ve done that, offer them credit – which they must accept, because they’ve got nothing else. And then you own them. I know too many good, hard-working, people who just don’t know WTF has happened to them, to think otherwise.


  288. An American history lesson according to a few intelligent Republicans? – WARNING – Do Not Read While Eating or Drinking.



  289. Thanks Cynthia, that was fun!

  290. Anon 12:20
    This is an apples and oranges article that does not speak to our deficit and spending problems as a nation.

  291. Obama takes it to the hoop.

    Economic Patriotism

    PEACE ~ Δ

  292. http://articles.marketwatch.com/2012-06-08/commentary/32103077_1_debt-private-sector-slowest-pace

    US Debt Load Falling At Fastest Pace Since 1950s
    Look at the tiny little graph on the right. What was the debt load doing before Obama was elected? And after?

  293. For a change! of humor today check out Cat Box at Stonekettle.com. Jim has taken on a right winger’s hate mail comment. My favorite line is – “The cat has stopped calling you an asshole and is now sitting in her litter box using words that make even a retired Chief Warrant Officer blush.” It reminded me of my now deceased 18 yo cat, Mouse, sitting in her litter box for the longest time just looking at me with an odd expression. I imagined her saying – Okay, I could use a little help here. I know I’m supposed to be here but I can’t remember why!


  294. “I, for one, don’t want to be responsible for paying the billionaires’ share of taxes”

    Wealthy Americans earn about 50 percent of all income but pay nearly 70 percent of the federal tax burden, according to the Congressional Budget Office, while the bottom 20 percent of American earners paid just three-tenths of a percent of the total tax burden, while the richest 20 percent paid 67.9 percent of taxes.

    Something doesn’t jive with your statement, care to explain?

  295. mageen in old virginy on September 27, 2012
    at 9:41 AM
    A perfect example of wild speculation based on no facts and no proof whatsoever provided. This is what we call propaganda. I wonder what party in history was famous for its use of propaganda?

  296. Sorry for the rant y’all, having the resident trolls call people names and sneer at them teed me off hugely this morning!

  297. “So, it seems to me, that the deficit is “there”, but it should not be the primary focus of any financial plan for overall recovery”

    This just highlights the fact that some people are really out of touch and do not understand economics. Europe is us 10 years from now, and you ignore it. Our national credit gets downgraded and you ignore it. We are printing $40 billion a month like a banana republic and you ignore it. City after city is filing for bankruptcy and you ignore it. In 4 more years we will have a $1 trillion dollar interest payment on our debt, and you ignore it. How bad does it have to get before you start to take it seriously?

  298. And for anyone who’s interested, I run a small business that I founded with a Nissan Sentra hatchback to hold my stuff. I have VERY LITTLE free time, because I AM my business and if I don’t do it it don’t get done! I love my work, but it’s a competitive business and very few women are in it in my area. My father told me if I was gonna make it I was gonna have to work twice as hard and be twice as smart as the guys, and he was right! He and my mother also drilled it into my head that I was BORN with more on my plate than most people will ever see, and that those gifts should engender gratitude and a sense of responsibility. I think it is a PRIVILEGE to pay taxes in this wonderful place, AND I think our “tax burden” is far too low! Mr Obama is a shade conservative for my taste, and there are things I had hoped he would address, but he was saddled with the most obstreperous group of self-serving nincompoops I have EVER seen in one place (and we have the TX lege here for comparative purposes!), who made it their business to interfere with every stinking move the poor man tried to make. If they had know about the Bin Laden deal they’d have effed that up too, just for fun and games. Effing TRAITORS is what they are! So yes, I want to see what Mr President can accomplish w/o one hand tied behind his back. I would’t give Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan two minutes to try and explain: I’ve seen and read enough of their ideas to scare me to death, and if that’s the best the GOP could come up with they must be desperate indeed!

  299. Why don’t you try getting acquainted with Mr Warren Buffet?

    Isnt that the guy who say rich should pay more taxes..but is fighting a $1 billion tax bill with the IRS? I can see why this guy excites you. How more hypocritical can you get than this?

  300. Nick Hanauer at TED talks.

    “An ordinary consumer is more of a job creator than a capitalist.”

    “If it was true that lower taxes for the rich and more wealth for the wealthy led to job creation, today we would be drowning in jobs.”

    “In a capitalist economy, the true job creators are middle class consumers. And taxing the rich to make investments that make the middle class grow and thrive is the single shrewdest thing we can do for the middle class, the poor and the rich.”

    PEACE ~ Δ

  301. Anonymous, you are absolutely correct: You can’t fix stupid. That there are still people out there who will be hurt beyond belief, who still support these two TeaParty candidates is very sad.

    Women, rich or poor, retirees, rich or poor, middle class and that includes millionaires because even they are not rich enough for these two to care about, 99% of us lose if the Tea Party candidates, Romney/Ryan win.

    Affordable heathcare—-why is it so threatening? UAW and his ilk must enjoy paying half their paychecks for health insurance. They must think it is ok for cancer patients and others with catastrophic illnesses to be dropped from their policies.
    Affordable healthcare has cost the taxpayer nothing. the only people hurt by bringing costs under control are the CEOs of the healthcare industry and pharmaceutical companies. The billionaires who must need more and more money to hide off shore and more and more houses and cars. The Tea Party guys are their guys for sure because that is who will benefit……….and oh by the way, Tea Party Romney signed into law an affordable healthcare plan in Massachusetts……..but now he is against it? Billionaires don’t like it, Koch brothers don’t like it, Carl Rove who, in the name of the Koch brothers, is piloting the TeaParty Republicans, doesn’t like it because IT WORKS.

    Tea Party Romney has the same foreign policy advisors as George W. Bush. You know, the one who started two wars with no plan to pay for them. And, you know their immediate goal: another useless war in the Middle East and if they are lucky, North Korea. Their only reason is to make more money for their billionaire buddies in the Military Industrial Complex, aka, the contractors——-remember Cheney and his contractor company. Remember Blackwater ? It is all about the money and all about the billionaires.

    I, for one, don’t want to be responsible for paying the billionaires’ share of taxes when they will end up paying nothing under Tea Party candidate, Romney. 99% of us will see a huge rise in our taxes while Tea Party Romney and his billionaire pals pay nothing.

    The lie about Medicare and President Obama has been refuted time and time again and yet the Tea Party Republican candidates throw it out there. They have been very open and public about not caring about FACTS. They have said they will say and do anything to get elected so their billionaire pals can pay nothing in taxes. yes, it is all about the billionaires and no taxes. They have openly said that no other issues really matter to them.

    The FACTS are: under Tea Party Romney, Medicare will go up 6,500.00 per year per person. That is 12,000 a year.

    And aren’t we lucky that we have our very own reincarnation of the idiot Palin in Tea Party Ryan? He is out there giving the “killing granny” speech to elderly people in Fla. Talk about killing granny, sky high Medicare costs will kill granny. Affordable healthcare does not kill granny. A Living Will is very important. Anyone with a brain should have the conversation with themselves and their families about their desires at the end of life. Do you want to be kept alive using artificial means or don’t you. Neither is right or wrong. It is something any intelligent and caring family should discuss. Ryan/Palin, get the FACTS correct.

    Turn off Rush and faux news. They are paid to lie. It is your life and your country that are in jeopardy. Don’t be stupid, get the facts. Tea Party Romney and Ryan and the republican Tea Party are laughing at your ignorance. They are in it only for the 1%, the billionaires.

  302. I am very much afraid that they not only wish to stop progress, they wish to take us pre civil war, dammit, you know, whenever women and other subhumans knew their place and children pulled their own weight in factories and sweatshops right up until they died! And like poor Ginger and her cabbie in Black Beauty, people AND animals dropped dead of overwork, with “never a Sunday’s rest!” oh yeah, they believe in America all right, but their America is no place I want to live!!

  303. Terri – I agree with you but will add this. As I understand it while they claim they want to shrink the government… they actually increase the size of government when in office. What they really mean is they want to eliminate that part of government that gets in their way or they have no need or use for…. while increasing the parts that are useful to their agenda… and more importantly where they can make money from doing so.


  304. You guys have pretty much clearly spelled out what the problem is and hopefully what the solutions are; which are pretty much what Obama has been advocating: a balanced approach to debt reduction and economic growth. We can’t just cut programs, we need to raise revenue. As far as I can tell, the GOP is focused on helping one segment of our economy only, the business sector. The rest of us can sink or swim; we must all sacrifice for the sake of the small business owner, aka the “job creators.” We’ve been there, done that. It has never worked. I think we have all heard about the “starve the beast” theory embraced by the right. Their goal has always been to shrink the government and in doing so, end entitlement programs. The very entitlement programs beloved by the American people.

  305. Easier and all, this has been a busy AM! Just learned that the Romneys, who own a number of homes, paid their domestic staff last year only a little of $20 grand. How can that be? Are they actually hiding wages paid in some other non-descript line on an IRS form? And Staples, one of the companies Bain (Romney) developed, is closing as many as 30 stores and laying off all their minimum wage employees. Seems as if Staples cannot compete with Amazon when it comes to selling office stuff. Shucks! I’ve been in many a Staples store. All of them are cavernous and it is only with enormous luck that you can locate an employee who can help you. Also, once you have fallen in love with a product and return for more, it is no longer part of the inventory. What kind of a business plan is that? As a result, I can’t even depend on Staples for an emergency purchase. Its pretty obvious that being touched by Bain is not anything like being touched by an angel.

  306. May I add my .2 cents to this. If Romney wins.. the deficit problem will become secondary if even worth mentioning as it always does when the R’s are in control. They will bullshit us with SS, Medicare, food stamps, middleclass tax loopholes, public unions, teachers etc are causing our financial problems and need to be eliminated . If we give more tax breaks to the job creators and corporations, deregulation, lower wages etc and of course a war or two with Iran or anyone else this will pay down the deficit and things will be great. They will gladly add a trillion or two or three or four to the deficit with out flinching. And laugh all the way to the bank.


  307. Let’s apply the republican budget ideology to an average family. The parents of two children lose their jobs. Instead of looking for new jobs and bringing in more revenue, they must just cut their expenses. Sell the furniture, sell the car, sell the jewelry and anything else of value, get rid of the kids (children are very very expensive). Try to hang on to your home. If you lose it move to a tent. Under a bridge, down by the river.
    The debt is a long term problem, but to insist that we not take in more revenue while lowering our expenses is just a foolish pipe dream that will leave us all neighbors of that family down by the river.
    Do the republican intend to cut off all social programs? Let all our infrasture crumble? Do they want to freeze us in time. When I got my first job I made $1.50/hr, thank god I grew up in a time that we progressively moved foward as a country. But it appears that the republicans want that progression to stop dead in its tracks.

  308. Not sure I rate as part of the Gang, but maybe y’all will let me sit on the steps? My husband was talking about all this deficit hornswoggle the other night. To add to what Gato was saying, much like the budget of a family; what the Bush tax cuts have done is similar to that family taking a pay cut at work or having a family member laid off. Suddenly they MUST use the credit card just to pay the bills and get the groceries. God help them if the car breaks down or someone gets sick- they can only afford an emergency health policy with a big deductible! So when the family returns to full working capacity, they can pay their bills up front again (YAY) but they have a new item in their budget, that is paying for what they had to borrow (oh CRAP) because those lost wages DON’T JUST MAGICALLY REAPPEAR and the bills still hafta be paid.
    Somehow, I don’t think volunteering for a further pay cut of 20% (RnRs plan) is going to solve this problem. Someone please tell UAW and Troll-a-non not to bother, I want to SOLVE this problem not merely argue about it. Whatcha think Gato? (btw I am seriously a cat-person, so think it’s great that I love your posts!)

  309. Hi, Terri – A couple of thoughts I’d like to share with the Front Porch Gang…

    First, I’ve noticed that Romney has a very interesting “body language” habit: When he’s replying in the affirmative, verbally, to some question he’s been asked, he is simultaneously shaking his head back and forth in a non-verbal “no”… Look for it; it’s quite something. I remember hearing somewhere, that this is a classic indication that someone is dissembling… You know… lying.

    Secondly, my husband (my personal Republican, with a lifetime in business)
    pointed out yesterday, in the course of a “discussion” we were having, that even if the Bush tax cuts are allowed to expire, and that additional income – and whatever other revenue – were used directly to reduce the deficit, and applied toward that ONLY, that the country would suffer horribly because that money would be essentially “taken out of the economy”. Basically, it’s the same thing as a family struggling to buy food and pay its household bills, with thousands of dollars in credit card debt, winning the lottery and then, all at once, using ALL their winnings solely to pay off their entire outstanding debt. They would have eliminated their debt, but would continue to have not enough money to eat and pay their bills and, on a functional basis, would not have improved their standard of living one whit.

    So this led me to think that all the GOP hammering on “reducing the deficit for the benefit of our children and grandchildren” is pushing for exactly the WRONG thing to do when a country is struggling to get out of a financial pit. (That kind of austerity plan is not doing too well in many European countries, either.) It seems to me that the debt must be paid off in carefully planned, and budgeted, increments, in a way that allows Americans to pay their bills, put food on their tables, and start spending again. That, of course, means jobs, with reasonable salaries. And probably also means upping the minimum wage, having the government support assistance programs and broader health care coverage, AND slowing down the accumulation of additional debt, at a minimum.

    So, it seems to me, that the deficit is “there”, but it should not be the primary focus of any financial plan for overall recovery. And, additionally, the thing that the GOP is saying is so gol-durn “critical” actually isn’t. In fact, focusing on the “problem” of the deficit is a terrible idea. (And let’s all remember Dick Cheney’s famous line, “Deficits don’t matter.”) Just maybe, when trying to get out of a recession, they really don’t!

    Thoughts from The Porch…?


  310. Gato, sorry you can’t void watching Fox, but I occasionally catch snipnets (is there anyone viler than Seah Hannity, Michelle Malkin, Monica Crowley and Bernie Goldberg?) and it has been quite a bit of fun to see them hyperventilating and hurling all the venom they can muster at Obama because he is winning. All the cheerleaders for the Bush administration which created the awful mess are now whining because America doesn’t want the GOP back in power. Truly, it’s priceless.

  311. Sorry Ev, you’re right. Flushing activated!

  312. sidney–you rock!

  313. Folks–please don’t feed the troll.

  314. Try again on parsing sid, who was very clear: it is a waste of her valuable time to argue with persons who 1) refuse to accept facts that don’t suit them, 2) wouldn’t know logic or analysis if it bit them on the butt, and 3) vote in the best interests of the people they would LIKE to be (rich beyond rich) instead of voting in their own best interests (solidly middle class).

    Insanity is continuing to do the same old thing over and over in the hope (conviction?) of returning a different result. We need to try something different here.
    Why don’t you try getting acquainted with Mr Warren Buffet? He is a man of serious financial acumen and has some very interesting things to say. You might even learn something, and he is probably rich enough that you could accord his views with respect. Don’t bother replying, it’ll go in the trash with that other boob’s crap.

  315. Easier
    It could have something to do with the fact that the tea party didn’t come into existence until mid 2009.

  316. Sidney, when you gain the ability to question Obama’s record, then, and only then, will you have the credibility to talk on the topic of ignorance. Until then, that topic is about you. Just another blond.

  317. Say it Mageen! The b-word is a word that needs to be owned by the people who have the disease. However, they hide behind everything but owning up to that word. Remember how all of a sudden the Tparty rose up, well, was up in arms about the deficit and nothing was said by these same people when the prior president spent us into oblivion by funding two wars? I was left scratching my head. If they were so concerned before, why wasn’t anything said? Also, as the stimulus became the lighting bolt for the movement, what they forgot was that the then departing president signed the first stimulus package, one of the smartest things he ever did. However, all of a sudden the deficit became the smoke screen to hide behind. Instead of being seen as the action that helped to avert disaster the stimulus became the catalyst for demonstrations. It is all so weird to me, for people to so lose sight of what is fair and what is not. How do we justify spending so easily for war but we begrudge spending to save this country? I really don’t try to reason it anymore if truth be told. The b-word does cloud judgement and until we all look within and confront our prejudices, nothing constructive will get done to bridge our divide.

  318. Your amazing wit, your sharp attacks, your factual debating skills have left me almost breathless!!! But before your stunning brutal oratory skills leaves me completely breathless, there is something I would like to tell you also, if I may be so bold. Ignorance sir. You can’t fix ignorance either.

  319. sidney18511 “What I have discovered is that you can’t fix stupid. You. Me. Done. Goodby Mr. UAW.”

    Translation. I lack the ability to maintain my composure and your arguments frustrate me to the point of stroking out so I am giving up rather than admitting I am wrong.

  320. My dear Mr. UAW, I am a middle aged woman, who has been a successful business owner for over 25 years. During this time I also raised my 3 beautiful daughters, my two oldest have graduated university with honors. My thirld child is a brilliant student, so involved in her education that she started university in 11th grade and when she graduates high school this year she will also have her associates degree. I am very proud of my children, and my children are thankful and proud of us, for they know how hard we worked. There is something that I have learned through my personal life experiences, something I have found always to be true and I would like to,share that with you if I may. What I have discovered is that you can’t fix stupid. You. Me. Done. Goodby Mr. UAW.

  321. Beth – Siegelman returned to prison on 9/11 to complete his sentence. There is a petition on http://donsiegelman.org/. asking Obama to pardon him. Perhaps you will sign it.


  322. Cynthia, I’m so glad that Mr. Siegleman is out of prison. That he had to spend even 1 minute in jail is a travesty. This is just disgusting.

  323. Do you know the Don Siegelman, Gov. of Alabama, story? The American Trial Lawyer Magazine calls Don Siegelman “America’s #1 Political Prisoner.” If not, you can read about him at http://donsiegelman.org/. It is a very interesting story in which Karl Rove had a hand in.


  324. Hi, again, Sidney – I think we humans have a revulsion when confronted with smirking. Probably some ancient lower brain stem thing… But that lower brain stem controls much of what we do and think, and I’m trusting mine. Sounds like you are, too. Great!

    Thanks for the excellent posts.


  325. So many times when the repubs do or say something that is so disasterous, I think that there is no way the righties can spin this such as the 47% moocher tape, and I notice that in the beginning the RW media will be thrown off balance in the beginning, and then, one of their mouthpieces will come up with something and by the next day they all receive their marching orders and then almost as one mass organism, they will repeat the new talking points with their proud smirks beaming from their lying faces they get their bearing back. And in the world of the rightwing bubble….all is good once again. Amazing isn’t it?

  326. Oh, Sidney, you’re good!

    Yes; that would probably be presented as a wonderful thing, saving that baby’s parents from having to buy a voucher for his or her future health care. A service to the nation, is it not? (God bless the USA!!)

    My husband is watching Fox (I love him, nonetheless, and I always remember the Godfather’s advice: “Keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer.” Talking about Fox; not my husband!) and, I must say I find it a TOTAL DELIGHT to see the Foxies squirming around talking about how polls don’t matter, as they watch Ohio (State of my birth, I will add) moving inexorably toward Obama.

    Even Karl Rove is now saying they “don’t need” Ohio… And, hey, when Karl writes something off, you can bet it’s OFF!


  327. thanks anon….
    but I find it funny when the snobs brag about how good the left acts and then they bring up things like picking scabs and (I beat them last time) sexual performance or dimensions……
    what they forget is that this industrial rodent (shop rat) had shit poked at him for over 40 years……
    Remember….Sticks and stones will break my bones but whips and chains excite me…….
    dickheads just piss me off….

  328. wellSidney…..to rephrase…..

    I have come to the conclusion that there is nothing that a democrat could do that the left-wing media can’t spin to their benefit.”….

    remember the2008 election….”Who do you want answering the “phone” at 3 o’clock”…….
    well the one we have now went to bed instead……….don’t bother me….I need my rest for THE VIEW….it was not pre planned, I said so…
    and the MSM follows along on their leash……

  329. You are spot-on sidney: IOKIYAR, no matter what it is!

  330. LMAO….
    “Politico’s Paul Ryan Satire: The Joke’s on Them”


  331. I have come to the conclusion that there is nothing that a republican could do that the rightwing media can’t spin to their benefit. Romney could rip the heart out of a baby on live TV at a campaign event, and Limbaugh would be able to twist and spin what happened, spoon feed it to the sheeple and they would accept it. And all would be just fine in the rightwing bubble.

  332. And he did it using taxpayer’s money


  333. And then there’s the story about how Romney and aides trashed office E-mails when he fled the governorship in Massachusetts and how they bought and removed the disk drives from their office computers.


    To think that voters would want to elect this honesty-challenged bozo to the highest office in the land is simply mind-boggling.

  334. Did Mitt Romney commit voter fraud?


    Seems possible. Tax returns would clear it up.

  335. “Mitt Romney embraced campaign finance reform on Tuesday. But rather than targeting unlimited corporate contributions or lending his support to existing campaign finance legislation, Romney instead suggested limiting teachers unions’ donations to politicians.”


    The politicians the teachers help elect will be across from them at the bargaining table. And we can’t have that can we? Yet corporations and billionaires contributing unlimited funds to political parties and super-PACs are never negotiating anything with government? No, they just buy a politician or two and tell them what laws they want passed.

    This is his vision of America and the 99%ers…what’s next! I hope we wake up before we are completely down the drain.


  336. Kind of comical watching Cynthia holding UAW to a standard she wouldn’t hold her self too. Is that funny, or sad? I’ll give it some thought.

    If he committed fraud, which you or anyone else has yet to prove as you salivate all over yourselves, then yes he should be punished. Kind of goes without saying I think??

    After considered thought, I think I will go with sad. No real conversation, just the endless quest for the gottcha. Be it a gottcha on UAW or Mitt or whoever.

    I can’t decide if you people are more like sheep or a ditsy blond cheerleader. The more I read back stories, the more cult-like this place seems. Cynthia and Evelyn seem to be the blogs regular 1-2 punch bouncers. UAW seems to be a punching bag that never wears out, congrats on your stamina. Then we have what I like to call the pepper people. They chime in and sprinkle a little love for the bouncers or others telling them how thankful they are they are here or how great a point they made, again making an interesting 1-2- punch. An invalid argument followed by group acceptance, thereby validating the argument. Like I said, very cult like. I can see how this group has gotten so far astray.

  337. jeez uaw – I’m just saying while you are kicking tires you need to kick ALL the tires. Not just those on the car I am trading in…. but also those on the car you are trying to sell me. Otherwise I will have to believe you are just another dishonest used car salesman.

    What is your opinion of Romney committing voter fraud? Should he be in jail also too there? Don’t answer my question with a question!


  338. Gato,
    You gotta admit, that’s rich. Anonymous accusing you of conspiracy theories while he links to Orly Taitz!
    Cheers, and keep those awesome posts coming.

  339. Easier, what thou sayest! I still remember the election of the first black governor of Virginia, Douglas Wilder. He beat a white pol, Marshall Coleman, who fought the results of the election. Usually the contested results of an election rest on the percentage between winner and loser. This time, however, it was glaringly obvious that Coleman couldn’t believe that he was beaten by a black man. The same thing is going on in this 2012 presidential election. Obama’s opponents cannot believe he won in the first place (there had to be fraud on a galactic scale! oh,my!) and they still can’t believe he could win again, especially against one of the wealthiest opponents in the history of the country’s elections. They just can’t wrap their heads around anything but their own bigotry. Yup! There, I’ve said it. I used the “B” word. And I’m glad!

  340. The Real Problem With Romney’s Offshore Investments

    “The system of offshore tax havens is one of the greatest threats to the global economy: undermining markets, helping shift gargantuan quantities of wealth upwards from poor to rich, then wrapping up much of it in secrecy.”

    “The offshore system of secrecy jurisdictions is much bigger and many times badder than almost anyone realizes. To have a US president who is a serial user and abuser of offshore secrecy, and even a defender of secrecy jurisdictions, would pose frightening threats to the US and the global economy.”

    PEACE ~ Δ

  341. Thanks for the link Peas, gave me a pop up that sent my virus alert into overdrive.

    I love the argument this article made.

    But on Saturday, the day after he was booed, Ryan broke free. Appearing at a town hall meeting at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Ryan showed the glitz, the glamour, the razzle-dazzle that he was supposed to bring to the campaign in the first place.

    It says he broke free, doesn’t say how he broke free. Much-a-do about nothing. Just another opinion piece, pretending to be news, that fell flat.

  342. Ouch!!!

    Paul Ryan vs. “The Stench”

    …Ryan had already decided to distance himself from the floundering Romney campaign, he now feels totally uninhibited. Reportedly, he has been marching around his campaign bus, saying things like, “If Stench calls, take a message” and “Tell Stench I’m having finger sandwiches with Peggy Noonan and will text him later.”

    PEACE ~ Δ

  343. http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-11-22/news/30431182_1_fox-news-results-show-viewers

    Fox News Viewers are idiots.

  344. jeez Cynthia….are you saying that Mitt did the same exact thing as Rahm Emmanuel????????
    are you saying that the mayor of Chicago belongs in jail for fraud?????

  345. Ok, i went through your posts and that’s what I gleaned. I still think you would benefit from a little objectivity.

    Let’s revisit independent thought here. You SEEM (note I am not accusing here) to be saying that the people here, since they don’t seem to approve of the guy you lean toward supporting, must therefore be unduly influenced by the “machine” somehow.

    If any “machine” influenced me, it was the Bush machine. If you cannot conclude that the Bush 43 years were a disaster for the USA, there is no need for any further discussion, period. You are not only not capable of independent thought, you’re not capable of any sort of thought at all! So please let me know if that is the case and again, I will not waste my time.

    If you want to participate in a REAL discussion, I’ll be glad to indulge you. I do not in any way agree with every single thing that has happened in the last 4 years, but I’ll be glad to back up what I think is good, what is bad, and how it could be corrected, or at least improved.

    Sent from my iPhone

  346. You tell them Sidney! Only when a democrat wins does the issue of voter fraud surfaces. And when that democrat is a black man, makes it even more suspicious that such a person could garner the majority of the votes. Fraud has to be involved, no way could that ever happen. Some of them are truly convinced of that fact. That is the only way they could live with Obama’s win and that is the only way they are going to have to justify another one. They could not stomach it otherwise. Sad isn’t it?

  347. The funniest part of this wasn’t even written about though, Staples is closing a bunch of its U.S. and overseas stores. Bet he’s taken his money and ran already.

  348. uawtradesman on September 25, 2012at 5:16 PM

    I should have suspected that math is not your strong suit.

    Florida, 11.4 million voters.
    180,000 accused of being non-citizens.
    After initial investigation, 2600 were singled out for further investigation.
    207 turned out to have questionable citizenship. Still under investigation
    Ergo a max of not more than 207 out of 11.4 million were probably non-citizens.

    The same analysis applies to the Colorado numbers.
    3.5 million voters
    11,825 accused of being non-citizens
    3903 selected for further investigation
    141 turned out to have questionable citizenship. Still under investigation.

    Neither is an example of the egregious fraud that you or the TPers might wish to claim.
    Why don’t you look into the possibility of paying for votes by Romney supporters? It might be more profitable

  349. The last thing on you little mind is the people that died for our right to vote. You really don’t give a crap. Tell me, what happened to the democrats voting fraud in 2000 and 2004. They couldn’t find enough DEAD people to make it to the polls?

  350. Another republican motto…..It’s our HATE that makes us GREAT

  351. The Republican’s motto:

    Freedom from Taxation, Regulation and Litigation!


  352. uaw – He admitted it so what is your opinion? Well how about this one?
    “To date, there has been no legitimate explanation for Mitt Romney having cast a vote in the January 2010 Special Election for the U.S. Senate between Scott Brown and Martha Coakley. At the time of his vote (which he has admitted doing) he owned no house in MA, and yet he was registered to vote from the address of his son’s unfinished basement in Belmont, MA.”
    It’s Romney’s Voter Fraud, Stupid


    PS – Sorry to hear about your lady friend’s accident. It sounds like you are doing a very good job of taking care of her.


  353. Now that Mittwit has driven
    his campaign into the ground…
    …he’d like to have a moment of your time.

    “It would appear that, following [the] leaking of a video that shows me effectively writing off half the nation’s voters, we can pretty safely say my presidential campaign has come to an end. Oh, technically it may still exist, sure, but let’s be honest with each other: It’s all over. And I have fully accepted that reality.”

    “So, with that in mind, I would like to use my few remaining weeks in the public spotlight to tell the nation all about a truly great religious organization…”

    PEACE ~ Δ

  354. jeez BFD….”Could UAW be on the sauce again? Or is there another reason for his incoherence?”
    I simply resonded to your “this dreary hoohah about voter fraud borders on hilarity”
    you seemed to think that a little crime was OK…..(I think you should redo your math tho)(207 out of 2600 not 207 out of 11.4 million)
    I just used your reasoning as an excuse for drunk driving…..YES…just as stupid…..
    or is it actually OK if liberals do it…..

  355. LMFAO…..
    DailyKos…get real…..worse than MSNBC……
    nice speech about Stevens…..who Obama (and Hillary) abandoned…..
    the best news I’ve seen in awhile….




  356. Cripes!
    Could UAW be on the sauce again? Or is there another reason for his incoherence?

  357. One would wonder why the Daily Kos, one of the worlds most well known and respected news organization, if they are reporting this, why hasn’t the rest of the MSM picked up on it and ran with it?

  358. Oh my goodness. How I did enjoy reading Margaret and Helen’s post today. I have nearly spent two hours reading their previous posts and must say that I plan on spending a bit of my day each day until I have read them all. Such a delight. Not only are they funny, but rather educational as well. I’ve never read writing with such clarity and hilarity! Just an absolute pleasure to read the writings of these two fine Ladies. They are a treasure and we should be so lucky to find such a devoted friend in our life times.
    I for one plan on coming back to this blog often. I just does my heart good to read these posts. The comments are at times very frightening, really. I must say it does show how “diverse” our society is, doesn’t it? Well, I for one will be back again and again to read more of what Margaret and Helen have to say. True treasures. Both of them.

    I remain,
    Mrs. Dorothy Jean Wainwright
    Springfield, Illnois

  359. And gato, that is an open ended challenge should you care to prove that it is me who is close minded and not you. Until then I am happy to report I was not in error as you suggested.

  360. “I think Non might well be getting paid to do this, and probably on the basis of how many replies he can generate. He’s probably been provided with some sort of high-tech “annoy-o-tron” by his superiors,”

    Thanks gato, this gave me a great laugh. Conspiracy theorists UNITE! I am not spamming responses on here. 90% of my posts have been to answer others questions of me.

  361. jeez BFD…..
    apparently just a little crime is OK…..then why all the BULLSHIT about someone who hasn’t committed a crime(Romney)…..next time I’m F’d up and driving I’ll use you as an excuse…..there’s not that many of us compared to all those driving….WTF….is 1 to many?????????

  362. Perfect advice Gato. Ignore it and it will wither and die.

    Moving on:

    Obama’s speech at the UN today.

    Transcript here.

    PEACE ~ Δ

  363. “It’s one thing to gain office by pandering to prejudice, unreason, and blind fury. Quite another, to guide a nation based on them. The first can be done, yes. The second, not at all.”

  364. uaw – what is your opinion on this?

    VOTER FRAUD UNMASKED! And, um, it’s Mitt Romney committing it



  365. well Sidney…dead people are just the tip of voter fraud….look at Wisconsin….http://frrole.com/temp/breaking-news-gt-website-error-put-wis-maciverwisc-milwaukee

  366. HI, Sidney, and fellow posters who are obviously capable of stringing together several coherent, intelligent, and original, thoughts –

    I think Non might well be getting paid to do this, and probably on the basis of how many replies he can generate. He’s probably been provided with some sort of high-tech “annoy-o-tron” by his superiors, that registers every frustrated reply he is able to solicit from someone else, and gets bonus points if there are a few curse words in the response, as well. Oh… And even more extra points for pomposity, for every non-response on his part, for every irrelevant question he is able to include – and double extra points for his beginning any reply of his own with an expression of “sympathy” for the moral failings, and lack of intelligence and/or character, on the part of anyone who bothers to respond to his drivel.

    When this blog dries up for him as a source of response, my guess is that he will quietly disappear from here and move on to more fertile ground… Announcing his reluctance to do so, I will also guess, by one final expression of his personal and heartfelt disappointment in the moral fiber and integrity of everyone else in the Universe, other than himself.

    I think that point is becoming more and more imminent…


  367. sidney, maybe politics isn’t the topic for you. Seems to get your very worked up. Hope you can pull it together someday.

    So how about that registration in California? You all cool with that?

  368. Are you shitting me, you send me a link about Dan Shansky that goes to brietbart? A possible absentee voting fraud. The blogger who dug this up is gone, there is no charges against this man? Fox and brietbart had to dig deep in their butt to find that one. Whereare all the convicted in person voter fraud convictions? Couldn’t find anything huh? Republicans tend to vote by mail, and the repubs passed no laws to deal with that. This story was nothing. And then for your on core you directed me to crazy Orly Taitz? You are a brainwashed rightwing nutjob who loves you some koolaid. Look if you don’t like Obama because he is a blah man, SAY SO, that’s your right. There is nothing to be ashamed about because you are frightened by an educated intelligent blah man, I know a grown man who is frightened of clowns I’m done with you and your foolishness. Talking to you is like trying to have an intelligent conversation with my cat. Why don’t you stay with your own kind and stop the trolling on this board, you have nothing of any import to add to this board.

  369. In addition to my links BFD, what about ACORN?

  370. Anonymous on September 25, 2012 at 12:45 PM

    Orally Titz is your attorney of reference. You’re prepping for Saturday Night Live. That’s one of your funniest lines ever.

  371. All this dreary hoohah about voter fraud borders on hilarity. An AP article in this morning’s paper demonstrated how badly overblown the issue is in two states, Colorado and Florida, where it has become a contentious issue. In both states, the question is about illegal voters. Florida claimed that as many as 180,000 voters on their rolls (out of 11.4 million) were non-citizens. Florida’s Division of Elections investigated and eventually narrowed the number down to 2600. But most of these actually turned out to be legal citizens, duly registered, and only 207 out of the investigated number turned out to be non citizens. 207 out of 11.4 million is a teardrop in the ocean.

    Colorado didn’t do much better. Out of 3.5 million voters, they estimated that 11,805 were illegal. That number got rounded down to 3,903 and upon further checking became 141. 141 out of 3.5 million is like two teardrops in the ocean.

    Interestingly enough, in both cases, those voters who received letters questioning their legality were either Democrats or unaffiliated voters. Such evidence clearly shows that voter fraud is pretty rare and that the problem is severely overblown. What it’s actually saying is that the system works.

  372. Sorry you could not maintain your composure Terri.

    sidney18511 Took me 10 seconds to find this.



    Did you know despite the fact that there are 2.6 million illegal immigrants in California, no proof of citizenship is required to for voter registration and presenting a utility bill is all the identification needed at the polling place? Statistics coming from the California Secretary of State put the number of eligible voters at about 64% of the total population. Applying this to the 2.6 million illegal immigrant population means that almost 1.7 million illegal immigrants could easily avail themselves of California polls during a national election. I have a problem with this, why don’t you?

    Could you provide all of us a quote where I cited Glen Beck directly? Thanks.

    I do accept sources like the CBO. Could you quote me where I said I did not. Thanks.

    I demand nothing, links or otherwise. I think it is reasonable and responsible that if you are going to make an outlandish claim, that you are able to support it with fact. If you cannot, that is on you, but then don’t expect me to take it seriously.

    “Religion is your fallback, and of course, YOURS is the correct and true and comprehensive one, and everyone else is, well, wrong. You are pro-birth not pro-life; you don’t know anything about the “seamless garment of life” (Google it) and you think the world would be so much better if everyone were more like you.”

    A dishonest argument as I have not said anything like this nor has anyone asked me. This is a reflection on your qualities and character, not mine. If you are curious, as long as it is not too personal, I might tell you. To assume is to tell everyone you are desperate and don’t have a leg to stand on.

    “Finally, no we are not all equal.”

    Agree to strongly disagree.

    Despite all of this twisting of a phrase and manipulation, there is one simple truth. If you are not asking the hard questions of both sides, if you cannot answer the hard questions of both sides, if you cannot admit the faults of both sides, if you cannot admit the good of both sides, you are not an independent thinker, and you are not objective.

  373. Anon, I just went back through a bunch of your posts, and here is what I find:
    You make assertions and cite non-credible partisan sources to back them up (Glenn Beck for pete’s sake? He’s an entertainer, just ask him!  Choosing someone’s opinion you like is not providing factual backup).

    You don’t accept non-partisan data reporting entities reports using statistical measures – GAO, CBO, etc, unless one of “your guys” is touting them.  If your guys are NOT touting them, the data is not valid, it is obviously “spin.”

    You demand links which you then dismiss according to the previous statement.

    Religion is your fallback, and of course, YOURS is the correct and true and comprehensive one, and everyone else is, well, wrong.  You are pro-birth not pro-life; you don’t know anything about the “seamless garment of life” (Google it) and you think the world would be so much better if everyone were more like you.

    Finally, no we are not all equal.  AMERICANS believe that all “people” have equal and inalienable rights:  to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, namely;  that were bestowed upon them by their Creator, whoever that may be.  I put people in quotes, as some Americans feel that there are subhuman groups (for some, women, for some, African-Americans, for some any person of color) that need not apply.  The whole legal history of America reflects our struggle to define and guarantee those rights to all persons – and even to define who is a person under the law.

    But no, we are not all equal.  Some of us are smarter, some more articulate, some more attractive, some more capable.  The converse is thus also true:  some are LESS of all those things.   Where we fit on the spectrum is just another item of data.   You certainly have as EQUAL a right to your opinion as Cynthia, Terri, and Gato  have to theirs and you may choose to support your opinion however you like, but we others have the right to reject your methods and arguments as facile and puerile and your opinion as worthless.  Let me clarify that I DO NOT think that worthless opinions make YOU worthless-although I may choose not  to waste more of my time in fruitless discussions with you.  You might go back through your own posts and read them objectively;  you know, pretend they are directed at you, and see what you come up with.

    Meanwhile? You’ll join some others in my trash can!  Ciao!

  374. It seems there are some people who are just sooo full of Mitt that you will never be able to change their minds. Not worth the time or energy to deal with them.

    Now it seems the big crisis facing the country has to do with football!


  375. Voter ID fraud is a federal crime, punishable with jail time and a massive fine.
    Now if this is such a widespread crime, the online newspapers and the prisions would be loaded with these criminals, a google search would show thousands of articles documenting this crimes. Check it out. There are none. Oh you can find republican canidates that have been sent to prision for election fraud, but no sneekey slimy liberals trying to give the democrats a fraudulent victory. Voter suppression is implemented for one reason only. To prevent citizens who would vote democrat from having their voices heard. Why didn’t these republican governors implement these laws for the republican primary elections? Why the rush? Government is slow as shit when it comes to urgent matters, but they must push this through in time for the November elections? Iwhy don’t they aim for the next major elections? They targeted like a laser to disrept the civil rights of democrats. If my party was doing this I would be appaled.! But you cheer them on. If the GOP ideology was so popular the republicans would want as many Americans as possible to vote, how they could show the liberals that this country agrees with them. The truth behind the republicans scheme is very obvious, for all those with eyes to see. There is no in person voter fraud, maybe next the republicans could pass a law prohibiting 6 year olds from driving?

  376. Anonymous,
    You’re full of shit and I have no intention of engaging you or your nonsense again. Piss off.

  377. gato, If I am dishonest, and you are honest, if I cam closed minded, and you are open minded, lets put it to the test. You have had a fine time dismissing Romney out of hand with little to nothing to back up any of your assertions. In the spirit of open mindedness, are you willing to have a conversation about Obama’s record? Now don’t go using me and your predigest feelings as an excuse. Are you open minded enough to have a conversation about Obama? Can you walk the walk or are you all talk?

  378. sidney18511
    A 150 year old and a 200 year old in California voted in the last election, fyi.

    “Now even if their was some devious plot to send willing people under penalty of jail to cast a vote for every dead person that hadn’t been purged from the rolls, it would not be enough to flip the candidates from loser to winner.”

    Again, men and women have died to defend our rights. Every dishonest vote robs an honest person of their vote. One bad vote does matter. Unfortunately it is far,far more than one vote. We need a more secure process.

  379. Thanks, Terri… And Beth, and so many others…

    Of course Non “…will never understand…” anything anyone else has to say about anything; that’s of no interest. And a pretty amazing list of “conclusions”, huh? “Wealth is evil.” “Gato is part of the 47%.” (Yeah – part of that 47% who put themselves through school, started their own business, supported themselves, worked and paid into Social Security for more than forty years, paid all their taxes, and so on… THAT forty-seven percent.)

    What a bloody obsequious bore… If he’s an “independent thinker” and “seeking truth”. then the rest of us must be from Pluto, and placed on this planet to see how much insignificant pomposity we can endure.

    Hang tough, Ladies. And keep your fingers near your Delete buttons at all times!


  380. Terri in NY
    We disagree on every count, and I think it is more to do with a lack of honestly than content.

    To continue to talk about Romney’s wealth is to begrudge it. To keep making the point of how he did or did not make it, IS the point. It is a tired broken record that has been played and continues to be played a million times. To assert that Romney did not make himself is absurd. But by all means take the Staples story and show us how he had it handed to him.

    As for me not speaking the truth, then by default I am lying. List out for me a few of the things I have lied about.

    I have made no claims that I am the only independent thinker, another breach of honesty on your part. I have said that most vested people, such as yourself and gato, are not.

  381. When someone passes away it can take several weeks just to get the death certificate. The voting rolls are updated to reflect theses voters who are no longer with us. I really don’t know why you think that the death rolls are not updated quickly enough. Dead people most likely won’t make it to the polls. Now even if their was some devious plot to send willing people under penalty of jail to cast a vote for every dead person that hadn’t been purged from the rolls, it would not be enough to flip the candidates from loser to winner. To spend so much of your time worrying about dead people voting is no different then sweating that our planet will be attacked and taken over by aliens from Pluto.

  382. jeez BO….picking scabs and eating them??????/

  383. Terry, I am so proud of you and Gato and others who really know how to tell Anon and UAW and other obstructionists on this site the truth. Thank goodness for you gals and your well spoken, well thought out ideas.

  384. HI Alaska and Thanks for the well wishes…..
    I like your point about accountability…..that’s all I want….not suppression…..I can’t see why anyone should be on the polling list 30 days after they die or move…someones not doing their job…..and if you have 750 eligible voters better not have 751 votes…..
    MI. votes on Nov. 6th…just the one day……ID required…….must vote in person first time voting in precinct….



  385. Anonymous, As usual, you deliberately misinterpret what Gato was saying. She is trying to politely indicate that efforts to portray Romney as a self-made man are ridiculous. She never called him “evil”–that’s your word. Yes, he’s successful and no one begrudges him that. But he had plenty of advantages and help along the way, and efforts by some to portray him as an “up by your own boot straps ” success story are false. A better example of a self-made man is Barack Obama. The person speaking truth here is Gato, not you; and of course you don’t point to anything she says that is not true. And by the way, your self-righteous assertions that you are the only one here who wants what’s best for the country and you are an “independent thinker” are offensive, self-aggrandizing and ridiculous.

  386. “Just admit that the guy was born into a family that acquired great wealth and political influence”

    It is comments like these that I will never understand. What we have here is a statement that basically says, once you have achieved the American dream, you are, for lack of a better term, evil. Even if you chose to mince words, the negative connotation to having wealth is obvious. That is jealousy in its purest form, and not a valid reason to disqualify a person on anything.

    gato is part of that 47%, and in part I agree with Romney’s brutally honest assessment. These are not people who have any appreciation or desire for truth. Obama could invoke martial law, and they would still vote for him come November. When you have a person that is this vested in a candidate, you can never do enough or be enough to be right in their eyes. Romney could sprout wings and a halo, and many here would only see horns and a tail.

    I think this is what separates independent thinkers from the vested Republican and Democrat. I want what is best for our country, and will settle for nothing less. I will ask BOTH sides the hard questions that need to be ask and I will demand answers. The vested people, they are always easy to spot. They ask the hard questions ONLY of their opponent, and get defensive and take it to a personal level whenever their candidate is questioned. In my mind, if my choice, my “guy”, is good enough to have earned my vote, he should have already stood up to the hard questions and prevailed.

  387. UAW-
    Sure sorry to hear about GF’s burn(s). Sending wishes for speedy and complete healing.
    We had a weird election in our biggest city this year, the results of which, under the municipality’s own law , had to be certified even though it was such a balled up mess no one really knows what all happened.


    The law requires that election results must be certified unless recounts and the like change the outcome of races, regardless of whether the city violates its own election laws as per procedures and safeguards .
    The initial “investigation” was run by the election commission which papered over citizen complaints . The recount of selected precincts paid for by citizens ended up being such a mess that the citizens are due to get their fees back.
    The biggest concern is whether it was all so badly managed that no one can figure out how many people did not get to vote- amongst other things fewer ballots were sent to precincts than the norm (and runners to provide more didn’t show up in time to provide more), voters were sent to other precincts to vote and turned away for no ballots there or voted on photocopied ballots, and election workers were told to ignore broken seals on electronic voting machines and so on..
    No one was arguing the overall results but very much arguing voter disenfranchisement and lack of accountability as per being able to even check if there were any dead people voting. I worry a lot more about this kind of thing than voter fraud. It doesn’t even take a partisan effort to suppress the vote- just incompetent nincompoops ( arrogant too- Ms Dukes was very arrogant) running the process.

  388. Hi, Bo – Don’t worry! I’m not expecting anything remotely “constructive” from that front. Just couldn’t resist snarking on the absolute ridiculousness of those particular remarks.

    I have also removed myself from any engagement with Non’s perpetually smarmy and condescending posturing as someone who is “just trying to be thoughtful and reasonable”… Poor thing – he just has no idea what “got into me” and is so disappointed and hurt that I “seem angry”…

    At least UAW’s up front with his points of view, from his avatar to most everything else he puts out. Something almost “refreshing” about that, compared to Non, whose obsequiousness is quite smothering!

    Always enjoy reading your posts…


  389. Gato, I see that you are still trying to engage UAW in a constructive conversation. You have much more persistence than I.
    Some time ago, I concluded that there really is no value in paying any attention to him. I think UAW started picking scabs and eating them when he was a child. As far as I can tell, he still does!

  390. A quick bio-pic of The Great Gaffsby recounts the self-made businessman’s rise from public housing and the Vietnam War, to his presidential self-reconstruction.

    Mitt Romney:
    A Human Being Who Built That

    PEACE ~ Δ

  391. Oh, UAW – This is really too much silliness on your part. Just admit that the guy was born into a family that acquired great wealth and political influence, added to which he has also always had the support of his (very wealthy and politically active) Church. His parents, when they “immigrated” to the US from Mexico, were supported by government funds until they got themselves going. His father was the CEO of a major auto manufacturing company (which probably also collected a good bit of Federal funding), a Governor, and ran for President. As even the lovely Anne has confessed – in a somewhat misguided effort to convince people that she and Mittens are just “regular folk” – that they lived, during their college years, off an investment fund they had inherited from his father. (Her family wasn’t exactly “middle class”, either, BTW.) His missionary work in France was supported by his Church. And so on and so on… It’s a real stretch to try to portray any of that as some kind of “up by his own bootstraps” story, and you just sound ridiculous trying to do so.

    Nobody is saying that Mittens wasn’t, most likely, a good and diligent student, or didn’t put in his required years as a missionary (although he evidently wasn’t a big hit in that role, but it did keep him out of the draft), or that he has been anything less – or more –than a successful CEO of a company that prospers on the basis of using other people’s money. Romney may be many things, but a “regular joe” is not one of them.

    Nor does he seem to have much understanding of the physics of high-altitude flying and why you can’t just open your airplane window at 35,000 feet… But, hey, what’s a bit more lack of comprehension when you’re already so far into it, eh…?


  392. waialeale….
    I think your envy is showing…..
    You keep thinking Mitt was born with a silver spoon in his mouth but you keep forgetting about his dad…..raised on a farm…..never finishing college….working his way up………wanting better for his sons…….
    did Mitt have friends from school and that helped him succeed(I think the joint Juris Doctor/Master of Business Administration degrees helped)…..today we call that “networking”…….

  393. I still don’t see how you can says having voter ID’s is voter suppression….2 different things completely……I don’t want anybody not to vote that can legally vote…..just as important is making sure that anyone voting is legal…..
    back to my 3 questions…my answers
    1. if your dead your name should be removed from the voter list.
    2. if you move you should be removed from the voter list and re-registered where you moved to.
    3. if your in a coma no one should be able to fill out your ballot.

    are there always going to be “extenuating circumstances”…probably….wonder how Stephen Hawking votes??????OH…..That’s right…he’s British……

    but then I suppose when the “over votes” and other ballot irregularities favor a liberal than it’s OK….(think Washington and Minnesota)

  394. Dee, the state you are thinking of that ended up “cutting off its nose to spite its face” is Ohio! There is also a formidable move to get the Ohio Secretary of State to grow the bleep up and rewind to the previous days and hours. These voter suppression states are making laughing stocks of themselves as well as creating an exceptionally good law suit against them which would have to be financed by the citizenry.

    UAW, voter suppression exists. It is damnable. Voter fraud, such as someone voting under someone else’s identity, is not to be confused with suppression. What we are seeing where state’s are yelling “voter fraud” is similar to years ago when certain people were slapping “Communist” on everyone as in Tail Gunner Joe and his list of “Communists” in the U.S. government. TGJ had elbow problems. But it was his intent to use the Commie label for political advantage, no matter who it hurt. Remember the Inquisition known as HUAC? And the innocent people it hurt? Some even committed suicide. Just don’t want to see that kind of mindset let loose in this country ever again but here it is posing as “voter fraud”.

  395. Hi Congenial Gang,

    There must be some misunderstanding about just who the “Fiscal Conservatives” are in the sense of “conserving one’s resources” as opposed to “political posturing”.

    For example, it is my impression that the true “Fiscal Conservatives” are the 47%, or perhaps the 99% of the people who cannot have multiple homes scattered over the country. By the time they makes their mortgage payments, pay the utilities, maintain their principal residence and pay their taxes, they cannot afford to buy another. These same “Fiscal Conservatives” do not have stables or a garage full of luxury cars. (Some of them may have the luxury of a dog or a cat though.) If perchance they are lucky enough to have paid off their car loan(s), they still have to buy gas and look after routine upkeep instead of having a “staff” to take care of their 10 year old jalopy, (jalopies.) They cannot afford to buy new ones now. These same 47%-99% “Fiscal Conservatives” do not have Swiss or Cayman Island bank accounts. Can’t afford them.

    Many, many of these “Fiscal Conservatives” are PhD’s, have advanced degrees and are scholars, educators and scientists who have dedicated decades of their lives to the betterment of mankind. Ergo, the recent announcement of the discovery of genes possibly linked to the causes and ultimate cures for certain cancers. The only “portfolios” these “Fiscal Conservatives” are interested in are the overstuffed briefcases they bring home every night to get ready for the next day’s research, working diligently of course in conjunction with that “Big Bad Wasteful G’mit Agency”, the National Institute of Health.

    Not many inflated egos among these “Fiscal Conservatives”!

    Anyone whose life has been or will be touched by cancer would have a deep appreciation for these “Fiscal Conservatives.” I have nothing but admiration and praise for their altruism. They get my vote.

    Aloha! Namste. Shalom. Saalam. Peace.

    Auntie Jean

  396. “You completely misunderstood my comment…..I was not putting myself above. I was admitting to my limitations. ”

    If that were the case, then you said in this statement that you need critical thinking skills to understand yourself. Considering the statement after, I find that doubtful. I think I got your comment right the first time.

    I won’t deny one must use critical thinking skills to understand my comments. I respectfully suggest you either deal with it or scroll on by.

    Now if you want to continue down this line of telling other bloggers what they should do or not do, you are welcome to do so, but I will not be participating. It distracts from having real conversations, which I am sure was the intent.

  397. Hey, Evelyn – This Gato has stepped out. And you’re absolutely right. Non’s is a game not worth playing.


  398. uaw – I think you confuse people who think for themselves as being programed.


  399. hey Beth…thanks for thinking about my gal……she went to work today(one-handed)….I rewrapped her hand a couple of times last weekend and I’m pleased how good the silvadene worked….Doc told her to leave the bandages off but I said keep putting the medicine on at night(don’t want the skin to crack and fall off before new skin grows underneath)……

    as for voter fraud.I believe the big problem is absentee ballots and taking the dead people off the roles should have been done years ago…..but who’s been stonewalling things…..the Dems….I will agree that it’s getting to late now but 6 months should be OK for fixing any “bumps in the road”….but I don’t want any dead voting or a live one denied…..and I don’t want thugs with batons at the polls either….

  400. Cynthia: It’s Noah. You can tell by the writing style and the worn-out refrains. He’s just trying to be a little more socially acceptable but will resort to his basic obnoxiousness.

  401. Evelyn are you sure this Anonymous is Noah? They all come with the same format only this one seems much smarter than Noah.


  402. UAW, cry all you want about how long the Repubs have been working on voter ID and other voter suppression laws, but the fact of the matter is all the laws keep getting passed within months of major votes. Gee, I wonder how and why that keeps happening? Maybe its because it benefits them by keeping otherwise legitimately registered Democratic voters from being able to vote.

  403. Anonymous on September 24, 2012 at 7:55 PM
    Oh yes….Noah did step way over the line. The remark he made to R. was totally dispictable, unjustified and a complete lack of respect for the blog owner….and himself. I don’t know why R. put up with him.


  404. Dee… my question to you is what will be the excuse for not getting an ID for 2016….not enough time again…..must be them DAMN Republicans blocking things since 2008…

  405. jeez Cynthia…with college professors like that Romney shouldn’t have gotten anybody to show up…..must be a few college student that haven’t been programmed….

  406. I decided to visit R’s blog to see if there was a reason anon has come back here with a vengeance. Apparently R’s place has a boundary somewhere – who knew? – so naturally anon found it and leaped over it. Shunned. Couldn’t take the heat for his own actions. :shocked:

  407. Dee, great point. Another point is that, even if it is free, you need birth certificates, etc. to prove identity. There are elderly people who don’t have that. They were born in an era when or place where records were not kept or were poorly kept. I know an elderly woman who was born in the south, moved north, to PA, when she was young. Now she needs her birth certificate and can’t get it. She’s been voting since she was young and now will be denied the vote! It is a crime. How many more are there like this?

    So there are three problems with the voter ID laws: losing pay to sit at DMV to get ID, finding the transportation to get to and from the DMV (since it is likely if you don’t have a driver’s license that you don’t have a car and don’t drive) and the difficulties involved in obtaining a birth certificate for some people. If there is a real problem with voter fraud at the polls, then we should indeed take care of it, in a reasonable, measured way that does not suppress the vote of real voters. But that is not the motive of the Right Wing of this country. If they were truly concerned about voter fraud they would also address the real problems like absentee / mail-in ballots. But they don’t. They also wouldn’t be working so hard to suppress the vote of legitimate voters by purging the voter registration rolls at the polls. Listed below are just a few of the many examples.

    North Carolina just recently tried to purge 30,000 voters from their voting polls because they thought they were dead. After a little research the number was whittled down to 5000. 5,000 letters went out and so far (as of last week) not one of those people has been found to be dead. But a majority of them are poor, minority, elderly, etc. In other words, likely to vote Democratic! Even if a handful are found to be dead, it is likely to be found out sooner or later and they will no longer be on the voter eligibility list.

    Florida has always allowed voting the Sunday before Election Day. Many people (often black) would go to church and then take buses and car pools from church to their polling sites. Florida ended the Sunday voting practice. What this does is effectively cut off voting for many people who would otherwise find it difficult to get to the polls because they lac transportation.

    For some reason I can’t remember the state, but there was one state that tried to extend voting hours in Republican leaning counties while at the same time cutting voting hours in Democratic leaning counties. How much more blatant can you get? Of course the courts ordered them to stop the stupidity. So, what did they do? They cut voting hours across the board. Rather than give greater access to voting to all and risk letting democrats vote more, they cut off their nose to spite their face and cut it for everyone.

    The Governor of Florida has consistently tried to get the county voting officials to purge the voting rolls of eligible voters saying that the people on the lists he has been providing are not legally eligible to vote. The county voting officials after checking out the lists being sent to them have bravely (risking their jobs) fought back because they have found that the lists DO NOT contain names of people who are ineligible to vote at all. And the courts agree with the voting officials. They have told the Governor to stop trying to purge voters from the polls.

    This is clearly and simply voter suppression for the political gain!

  408. Whirled, you are a wonder (and I do love your little gopher/hamster avatar, whatever it is…)

    Yep; seems the more we get to “know” Romney, the less we like him. I read Charlie Pierce, on his Esquire blog page, every day, just after checking in with M&H, and all of you. Charlie’s a Massachusetts guy, born and bred. “God save the Commonwealth”, as he always says.

    And, yes, they do know him best. The ONE GOOD THING Romney did for the Commonwealth, he now denies.

    I find that WAY pitiful. I have no idea what this dude wants, and/or why he thinks he “should” be President. His wife is equally clueless. And the Romney sons… No military service there, anywhere… All those boys – and not ONE has ever even done ROTC…?

    Good grief. Why is this person even in contention?


  409. You completely misunderstood my comment…..I was not putting myself above. I was admitting to my limitations.

    Get off your damn high horse, lady! (Does that makes it clearer?) The end.


  410. cynthia…I agree….”Why did we privatize the voting machines”….
    let’s go back to paper ballots and if their folded wrong their thrown out!!!!!like before….

  411. Nice try, Noah. You already gloated on this blog about the steps you take to get around that and continue to come here. My guess is that Matthew has other things to do than to ban you every time you show up. But I am more than happy to explain to the people who have not seen your full ridiculousness just who you are and how you constantly troll for attention.

  412. Evelyn
    I will assume you do not run your own blog. Otherwise you might know that the host has the ability to determine who a person is regardless of what chat handle they take. To the site administrator, a persons identity is the same to them no matter what name they log in with.

  413. and of course let’s all remember what a colossal bust the “Noah in Western Michigan” blog was. Apparently (gasp!) nobody was interested.

  414. Oh, Cynthia–Noah will not use another name. He’s been banned too many times. But you can always spot him, among the other “Anonymous-es” by the stupidity of the comments. He’s now trying to draw Gato and Beth in by purporting to be polite, but it’s the same old “pay attention to me” drivel that he has spouted for the last few years. Sad sack.

  415. Cynthia
    As your comment shows, and as I referred to in a previous comment about what the topic of religion and politics does to what are otherwise normal people is why I prefer to keep the name I have. If you have particular people who you wish not to address your comments you might try putting them on a less public place rather than be condescending. I understood you quite clearly. Maybe you might be better served explaining your argument another way rather than assume only critical thinkers are at your level of game. I would hate for anything to think you consider yourself better than anyone else. After all, we are all equal, right?

  416. I won’t deny one must use critical thinking skills to understand my comments. I respectfully suggest you either deal with it or scroll on by. I was not actually addressing you but simply putting in my two cents into the discussion. I feel if someone has something important to say they would use a name not the “Anonymous”. In time we will have more anonymouses/anoymices/anonymasses arriving and it becomes confusing. Perhaps you would consider using a name so we recognize you from the others. Thank you.


  417. Mitt Romney was governor of Massachusetts from 2002 through 2006. So Massachuesettians know him best.

    This is what they think.

    PEACE ~ Δ

  418. The problem with obtaining a voter non-driver ID is the time involved. Living in Philly for ex, those residents don’ t drive, they take mass ttransport. One lady who @ 54 had been voteing religiously since 18. She went to the DMV, and the process took 4 hours. For a person to have to take a day off of work, cuts into their income, even if the ID is free. I believe in voter ID, but what I see is a rush to get all registered in Penn by the early Oct. Right,,,,, 500k in a four hour process! The ID should not go totally in effect till next year. This is voter supression big time!

  419. Cynthia
    I think you are mixing up a lot of different arguments. If we do or do not have enough machines, it does not validate or invalidate the I.D. system. As to the argument of it being a sacred duty separate from the issue of the machines being privatized. I think we agree that the systems integrity needs to be safe guarded. How best to do that I think there are a lot of schools of thought. Personally I am for having a unified system that is identical in each state.

  420. Cynthia, I love your post. You hit the nail on the head!

  421. During Reagan’s term he passed a law that required all ERs to treat everyone who showed up, regardless of their ability to pay. When the hospitals asked how they would absorb the loss, Reagan explained that 50% of all losses would be paid for by the government through taxpayers money, the other 50% the hospitals would recoup through charging insurance covered patients a higher price, which the insurance companies redistributed to everyone who paid their own insurance premiums. So instead of feeling sorry for a small amount of people, who will receive government help in buying insurance under Obamas new plan, be happy that the taxpayers are off the hook for the slackers and the people taking the individual responsibility of buying their insurance won’t be charged $90.00 for one Tylenol.

  422. Having a photo ID isn’t going to matter if there are not enough machines, convenient poling places, adequate hours and competent election officials. Why is Election Day not a paid holiday? Why are the Voter Registrars not maintaining the voter rolls properly? But more importantly, if voting is such a sacred duty did we privatize our voting machines? We can not question the results because of software is copywrited. It is very easy to manipulate electronic results without causing much attention. It has been done before. Why do we not go back to paper ballots and counting them? If we must wait a few days for the results then so be it; the winner is not sworn in until January.

    Perhaps we should be given voter identification on the day we are born. Australia, I believe, fines you if you do not vote… now that would be an idea. BUT the reality is this “voter fraud” meme is all about rigging an election that a “certain” party could not win without rigging it!


  423. Mitt Romney protested FOR the war and against the young men that protested against it. He was very honest in his hatred of these young men that burnt their draft cards.

  424. Beth, I am sorry but you are wrong about the dirty bomb. You are not going to get material with a high enough rad count out of a hospital to be an effective weapon. The purpose of the conventional explosive is to take highly irradiated material and spread it across a large area in order to contaminate it and killing all those in the area. What household waste do you have or know of that is radioactive?

    I also disagree on all recessions being caused by Republicans. Congress has the purse strings. The housing and financial crash has the Democrats neck deep in it.

    I am pro life so we won’t have much agreement there.

    I am for Voter photo I.D. To me it makes sense to be able to tell by looking at someone if they are who they say they are. I consider the right to vote, and the act of voting, to be one of our most sacred duties as a citizen. Men and women have died defending that right. Every time an illegal vote is cast, a valid voter is disenfranchised. I don’t deserve that, and you don’t deserve that. Most states I have seen taking it on offer it for free to those who cannot afford it. Even so if they cannot afford the few dollars for a photo I.D., then why are we thinking we can mandate health care that the fine alone is a 100 times the cost of an I.D.

  425. Anon, I didn’t get the dirty bomb thing wrong. ON the Mother Jones tape, the full, unedited version, Romney stated that the reason Iran should not get nuclear bomb capabilities is because they would make dirty bombs. From your statement you clearly know that the two have nothing to do with each other. We / they can get radioactive material (household waste, hospital waste, etc.) and use it to make a dirty bomb. He clearly does not know what he is talking about. He also stated that the Palestinian / Israeli situation is just not solvable and he would just sit back and watch and wait and hope things would work out (I paraphrase). Now I know the situation is difficult and I certainly don’t have any answers to the problems of the Middle East, but is this the answer you want from the man in the office of the President; we’ll just sit back, wait and see what happens and hope for the best? Really?

    I guess I talk about Romney because you keep asking me to defend my statements about him. So I do.

    And I must say, the Republicans have done absolutely NOTHING good for me or those I love, lately. Every major recession we’ve had in the past 30 years has been under republican administrations. Trickle down economics has not made more jobs. They are working tirelessly to legislate against women’s reproductive healthcare, equal rights for gays and lesbians, voter rights, shutting down unions (public and private) and they work for implementing the views of the religious right on the majority instead of just allowing people to hold their own views. Again, all this information is out there. Just look for it in the voting histories of the different states legislatures. See how Republican dominated state legislatures are voting against all these things. That in and of itself should be enough info to make any reasonable person think there is something wrong with the this party.

    North Carolina just recently tried to purge 30,000 voters from their voting polls because they thought they were dead. After a little research the number was whittled down to 5000. 5,000 letters went out and so far not one of those people has been found to be dead. They are all alive. But a majority of them are poor, minority, elderly, etc. In other words, likely to vote Democratic! Even if a handful are found to be dead, it is likely to be found out sooner or later and they will no longer be on the voter eligibility list.

    Florida has always allowed voting the Sunday before election day. Many people (often black) would go to church and then take buses and car pools from church to their polling sites. Florida ended the Sunday voting practice. What this does is effectively cut off voting for many people who would otherwise find it difficult to get to the polls.

    For some reason I can’t remember the state, but there was one state that tried to extend voting hours in Republican leaning counties while at the same time cutting voting hours in Democratic leaning counties. How much more blatant can you get. Of course the courts ordered them to stop the stupidity. So,what did they do? They cut voting hours across the board. Rather than give greater access to voting to all and risk letting democrats vote more, they cut off their nose to spite their face and cut it for everyone.

    The Governor of Florida has consistently tried to get the county voting officials to purge the voting rolls of eligible voters saying that the people on the lists he is providing are not legal voters. The county voting officials after checking out the lists being sent to them have bravely fought back because they have found that the lists DO NOT contain name of people who are ineligible to vote at all. And the courts agree with the voting officials.

    There are so many other stories like those above. You tell me that the Republican party is not engaged in voter suppression! I say bulls**t!

  426. Nothing like keeping informed

    CampusReform.org is designed to provide conservative activists with the resources, networking capabilities, and skills they need to revolutionize the struggle against leftist bias and abuse on college campuses.

  427. Hi, Beth; Gato once again! My goodness, Woman, you have a fire in your belly, as do many others here. I am impressed and inspired by the fervor and relentless determination expressed by all of you. Maybe I’ll just have to take a deep breath, get a good night’s sleep, try to cram the rest of my life in somewhere, and jump back in with the kind of commitment you all express.

    Meanwhile, can anybody tell me one single reason why Romney is anything other than a lying, self-serving, opportunist slimeball? (“Oh, Gato… That wasn’t NICE…”) For heaven’s sake, other pols are starting to look sort of “good” in comparison! What a sorry state of affairs…


  428. Hey Cynthia how are you? How about those miners that were bused to a rally for Mitt after being forced to take a day without pay to go! Choice: job or principle! Not much choice in my book! Of course, your annoying little pen pal probably thinks that’s all propaganda. I won’t know cuz I trash his stupid posts before reading them! Keeps my blood pressure healthy! Ciao!

  429. Robert
    “Anon, i don’t like the mandate part either, but without it,”

    Then it is a bad plan. I don’t think you can reasonably justify an action based on a bad premise. I can no more support this statement than I can say kidnapping a drug addict and holding them against their will to break them of their addiction. I may have good intent but the ends do not justify the means. If his plan will not work without the mandate, then it is not a workable plan.

    As for the people getting fined, I am not sure how they will get covered. But as it stands now, we have millions of middle class who are having their homes foreclosed. Millions more being added to disability and government assistance. These people do not have the extra money to cover for this mandate and will have to chose between insurance and a home. In their shoes I would keep my home and take the fine, what other choice would I have?

    The part about the illegals is spot on accurate. They are one category of people that are covered under this legislation, so taking care of one takes care of them all.

  430. Beth, I learn better by talking with others just how my head works. Also I find arguments to be a productive thing and not a negative when those in disagreement can keep a cool head. I am not sure what has gotten into gato but he/she is obviously angry and that is ok, we don’t all have the ability to disagree and keep our heads. I have found that most people who are vested in their candidate do not want to talk about current events or justification for their choice, they only want to talk about things that justify that choice in a positive way and attacks their opponents. I guess this is ok too, though it is not my choice. I am not comfortable going through life with blinders on. Each party has done good things for me, and each has done me wrong. Each, in my opinion is due an independent evaluation every 4 years if I am to cast a responsible vote.

    In the 30 years you have mentioned, we have had both Republican and Democrat Presidents and Congress. So I think you would, links or no links, have a hard time making the case that all one side is good, and all the other side is bad. They are both complicit in where we are today.

    ” He thinks dirty bombs are the same thing as nuclear fission bombs and that Iran can make a dirty bomb if it has nuclear bombs and that is why we need to stop them form getting the bomb”

    I am sorry but your information is not accurate in this case. A dirty bomb is where you take conventional explosives and mix radioactive material in with it. It still makes an area unlivable and is very toxic to all life. In the case of Israel, considering the size of the country( you can fly over it in a jet in 6 minutes) a dirty bomb could make the country uninhabitable for hundreds of years.

    As for his business experience not being an asset because government is not a business. Technically you are right, government is not a business. But many of the principles that cause a business to be successful would make our government and our recovery much more effective.

    If in the end you find conversing with me too argumentative then by all means pass me by. I would much prefer to talk about Obama and his record but I have found less than 1% of the people I chat it up with can productively hold a conversation on that topic of their candidate. So in the end all I am left with talking about Romney with those on the Left and Obama with those on the Right.

  431. Mitt & the Vietnam War

    In 1965 Mitt Romney protested the Vietnam War. Between 1964 and 1969 he applied for and received 4 draft deferments. In 1994 in a political campaign speech he stated that, “It was not my desire to go off and serve in Vietnam, but I did not remove myself form the pool of young men who were eligible to vote”. Obviously this was a lie since he had applied and received 4 deferments from 1964 through 1969.

    Then in 2007 he stated, “I longed in many respects to actually be in Vietnam and be representing our country there and in some ways it was very frustrating to not feel like I was as part of the troops that were fighting in Vietnam”. Wow, I don’t even know where to begin. First, who actually longs to go to war, to kill and risk being killed? And in some ways his statement actually sounds like he thinks it was a beauty contest and he would be representing the USA. But of course, the biggest problem of all is that he is obviously lying because he actually actively worked not to be there by applying for and being granted 4 deferments and he protested against the war. Once again, Mitt Romney is caught in a lie; this one about himself, not uncommon, because he frequently is trying to recreate himself, to make himself appear better to those he is selling himself to.

  432. Thank you Beth….I try to make sense of things.


  433. Rewind and replay:

    You thought he was gone! You thought he was history! Well, You were wrong, folks!

    From the courthouses of Alabama to the polls of Pennsylvania, this bad ol’ boy is back!

    So put your hands together, America, and give it up for…

    Mr. James Crow!

    *read the whole week

    PEACE ~ Δ

  434. Voter Protection or Voter Suppression?

    via Brad Blog

    PEACE ~ Δ

  435. Great response Cynthia. Thanks for the clear and concise analysis of the differences between the two incidents.

  436. Jeez uaw….one is an individual acting on her own and the other is the candidate’s campaign. One actually happened the other (unless the teacher follows the voter into the booth) has no idea if he honored the pledge. Not the same thing!

    “A college professor has been placed on leave after she allegedly forced her class to sign a pledge to vote for President Obama in the upcoming elections.” I can not find where it says for a “passing grade”.

    Yes, they both received the same number of tickets but Romney could not come up with enough college conservatives so he bussed in who? students? or adults? paid? from other areas. Call it what you wish but I call it stacking the deck IMO. I’ll give you a D+ on this one!


  437. Stupid professor! She does harm to President Obama and the Democrats, if this is true. If I had been a student in her class, I’d be pissed, but I’d probably sign the pledge. She can’t verify if I vote her way or not even though I would (but not because of her). Votes are private. This is a stupid story because it is not as if there are thousands or even hundreds of professors across the country doing this. She is an anomaly.

  438. Jeez Cynthia….(Romney stacks deck)…
    How is getting the same number of tickets “stacking the deck”

    How about a complaint about college professors requiring an Obama vote for a passing grade!!!!!!


  439. UAW, I wish hope your girlfriend feels better soon and wish you well. You and I both know the answers to your silly questions. These are not the real problems of voter fraud and again I direct you to the current NC dead people scam. Like some others on this site you have no desire for the truth only a desire to make your point, over and over again! Real voter fraud happens in absentee / mail-in ballots. But the Republicans seem unconcerned with this. It doesn’t care about this because it doesn’t accomplish their goal of purging Democratic voters. And frankly, I would rather see 10 “dead people” vote than 1 real live person denied the vote. If I were that 1 person, I would be very upset, angry even.

  440. Anon, i don’t like the mandate part either, but without it, the plan wouldn’t work as it requires everybody buy in to spread the cost of insuring those with pre-existings and higher cost with those (mostly younger people) who don’t have as many health issues… I wanted single payer and kind of hoped the SCOTUSA would have struck down the mandate portion.. because it would have forced a new deal to be offered and hopefully it would have been the single payer or Medicare for all.. but as we all know (at least those who try to remain objective and not lead by misinformation of which Fox News is there for), Obamacare was a gift to the insurance companies. Now they get the entire population to insure and the government will pay the premiums or a portion of it, for those who don’t make enough money to pay the premiums the private insurers will demand.

    Something I would like to know is how are those citizens who don’t sign up for healthcare going to be covered if they need medical attention? I know they will get fined, but the whole point of this overhaul was to ensure all people were covered because so many people were not in the past and basically overloading the system with unpaid bills. When an uninsured person goes in for care under Obamacare, how are they going to be responded to? That’s what I’d like to know? How will it be any different than it was before Obamacare?

    As far as illegals all being covered, I don’t know enough about that but my gut feeling is that may not be the case. The whole point of this remake of the health insurance offerings to Americans was to offset the huge cost that providing healthcare to the illegals was causing. Does anybody else here know how illegals will be treated under Obamacare? On a different but similar note and subject, Obama has sent more illegals back to Mexico than GW ever did… why don’t more people know that?

  441. Cynthia, very well said. Our choices / vote in local government are so very important. If we don’t give President Obama a Congress he can work with the problems will continue, there will be no progress, and the Republicans will not get the message that we are tired of their tactics!

  442. OH SHIT!!!!!
    Bill Maher…

  443. sorry about all the OOPS…my girlfriend got hurt (burnt) at work last Friday and I just got home today from helping her……she’s starting to feel better….

  444. crap…I meant more than once

  445. oops that’s dead people

  446. just got home….still going through posts….HEY Beth…..YES OR NO……..I didn’t ask for excuses…….Is that so hard to do…..Y_E_S spells YES…..N_O spells NO…..
    1 Should people be allowed to vote?
    2 Should dead people be allowed to vote?
    3 Should non-citizens be allowed to vote?
    I going to add a 4th
    4 Should someone in a catatonic state(coma,vegetative) be allow to have someone else vote for them?

  447. Ooops – I am also there too not voting for the Koch Brothers, Rove, Norquist, Gramm, 1%ers, ALEC or numerous other characters and organizations that come along with one particular candidate.


  448. We can research, investigate, discuss, argue and research further….but still there are only two choices Romney or Obama. Candidates make promises, present facts and figures, offer the world even but they are only the president with little real power to cause change. He still has to deal with a Congress who may or may not work with him. There are deals and compromises that must be made in order to get things done and it often results in “broken promises”. A dictator on the other hand, especially a brutal one, can make many changes fortunately we have not come to that point….yet. Electing a president is important. But more importantly are those we elect to sit in Congress, Governors and officials in state and local governments. This is where many things really get started. I believe most of us have done our research and have made our choice at this time.


  449. Gato, thanks again. You always do them proud, too! I love reading your posts.

  450. Thanks Gato, as you can see, I addressed Anon’s argumentativeness and called him out on it. I don’t intend to respond to his posts in the future unless I am truly moved to do so! Did you see Bill Maher’s show last week, about undecided voters. It was great. Anon claims to be an undecided voter. Anyone who is an undecided voter at this point in the game with all the info out there really has a problem. There just is no reason to not know for whom who you want to vote. All the info is out there, all the topics are being debated by bloggers, political pundits, etc. Do the homework and form an educated opinion and go with it. That is what thinking people do. My feeling is that Anon is not really undecided as he claims, but rather just trying to start arguments and change people’s minds who are not in his camp. I may be wrong, but I don’t think so.

  451. Hi, again, Beth – I think your summary of Obama vs. Romney is 100% RIGIHT ON! Thanks for posting it. You do Margaret and Helen proud.

    Gato (again)

  452. Thanks Gato.

  453. Hi, Beth – My husband (whom I love dearly) will sometimes do something incredibly infuriating, which – of course – infuriates me. And, when I’m consequently angry with him about it, he says something like, “I’m sorry you find this so upsetting”… Which is, of course, even more infuriating! I have learned to call him on it every single time – and he’s smart enough to have gotten it, I’m happy to say!

    Someone’s saying that he is “sorry” that YOU are upset (or angry, or whatever) is no apology at all, and is a total denial, on his part, of what HE has been doing, and knows damned well he has been doing. The person who says that intends only to deny his or her own responsibility for being provocative, combative, and annoying… And to suggest that the only thing he is really “sorry” about is that there is something wrong with YOU. He’s not “sorry” at all; he’s just hoping that he can make you feel guilty for your perfectly appropriate response to what he’s been doing all along, so you won’t tell him to go play on the highway instead of continuing to be an annoying pest, which I’d guess is pretty much what you’d really like to tell him. (Just a guess!)

    It’s just his attempt to keep you in his game, questioning yourself and wondering why you can’t be as calm, rational, and “polite” as the “apology-giver” certainly wants to delude you into thinking he is. He’s none of those things, even though you have been.

    When someone continues to behave in a provocative way – questioning the motivation behind your every inquiry of him and his arguments; taking the “golly, gee, I’m just looking for the truth” pose; the “let’s just all have a civilized dialogue about facts” while offering nothing remotely like a fact, position; and being falsely apologetic and contrite whenever he’s called to task… You know you’re dealing with someone who just wants to play the game endlessly and only knows how to engage people by irritating them. It’s disrespectful on his part, to say the least! I can certainly understand why you’re tired. I got there myself, too, just yesterday… And I got the same sort of solicitous, crocodile-tear, “sympathy” that you did, less than twenty-four hours ago.

    He’ll always find someone to draw into his game, for a while. And when one “opponent” tires of it, he’ll go right on to the next, with hardly a moment’s hesitation. He has no intention of changing his rules; he’ll just change players, one after the other. Not to worry!


  454. Anon, also, I must say, for me this is not really a “lesser of two evils’ choice. While I know every candidate has his / her flaws. I do not see President Obama as evil. He is flawed and has not done a perfect job governing us. Who has? Both sides have used propaganda in their ads and both sides have engaged in blatant over blowing and distortion of facts at times. But the republican strategy has clearly, to me and those who wish to see it, (and again, I will not provide sources and links because they have been provided on this site and are out there) stated they don’t care about facts and fact checkers. Romney says what he thinks people want to hear depending on the group to whom he is speaking. I don’t like the man, don’t trust him. Everything I have heard him say; everything I have read about him; past and present, it all leads me to these same conclusions. He is more than the usual political flip flopper. He is a user, an opportunist, a hypocrite, a liar, and an elitist.

    He claims that his business experience is what will save this country, but we are not a business. He and his party keep insisting that his trickle down theory will create wealth and jobs. We’ve been there and done that, for thirty years. It hasn’t worked! It helped get us where we are today. They keep saying Obama didn’t solve the financial crisis and that is why we should vote him out. Obama prevented us from going into a full depression and the economy has been getting better, I admit, slowly. It took 30 years and 8 INTENSE years of failed policy, 2 unpaid wars, etc. to bring us to this point. In what reasonable world does a country in that position bounce back to prosperity in 3+ years?

    He has no foreign policy experience. Did you hear what he said about the Israel / Palestinian situation? Google that tape Mother Jones of the fundraiser. He thinks dirty bombs are the same thing as nuclear fission bombs and that Iran can make a dirty bomb if it has nuclear bombs and that is why we need to stop them form getting the bomb. You or I could create a dirty bomb with stuff from around our house and some internet instructions, if we were so inclined. He’s a moron.

    I don’t even want to revisit his 47% comment. Been there, done that. Suffice it to say that President Obama had stated at his acceptance speech that and several (if not many) times since that he is everyone’s president, not just the president of those who voted for him! He is open to compromise and has tried to do so many times. But the obstructionist Republicans refuse to do so.

    I do not see Mitt Romney as an EVIL person on a personal level. I guess I think that he believes he is doing the best for his country. But in my (humble) opinion a vote for him would be the lesser vote and would put this country on the wrong path. The path would lead to one in which the haves would have more and have nots would have less. Women would lose even more of their reproductive rights. Gays and lesbians would not be allowed to marry and get the same economic and social advantages as heterosexuals. People’s health care costs will just keep exploding and many will go without. Corporations will continue to get corporate welfare and / or go overseas to find cheap labor, while people here lose jobs. No, I can not vote for Mitt Romney.

  455. My apologies to you Anon if I came off as attacking or angry. I am not angry, just tired. It just appears that, for the most part, info and links have been given on this site for most of the stuff I have talked about (yes, not all) and I have been repeating myself constantly. I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but if you are truly just looking for info to make up your mind, it is out there and you don’t need this site or me to get it. I may be wrong, and forgive me if I am, but you just seem to be more argumentative than searching for info. Not argumentative in a nasty way, but argumentative none the less. If you haven’t made up your mind yet, with the info that is out there, on this site and just out there in general, nothing I say, no link I provide will help you do so. Good luck i the future and I wish you well.

  456. Sorry if I have caused you to be exasperated Beth. As I stated before, I am doing my best to not cast a lesser of 2 evils vote this election. That means getting to the truth, on both sides. Unfortunately 99% of what I have found on both sides is an unwillingness to discuss and explore what that truth is. Both sides defend their own and attack their opposition. Maybe the fault is with me going to either side when I should have gone to other independent thinkers.

    Religion and Politics, the two topics where normal folks sometimes become, well, less normal. Sorry if I made you uncomfortable Beth, I will drop the subject.

    Where the money will come from is tax payers, at least as I understand it. I think the mandate is a violation of our Constitutional rights. A lot of middle class people, 6 million if I remember correctly, will be hit with a $1200+ penalty. One of my bigger sticking point with this bill is that 100% of illegals in this country will be covered, but 8% of Americans will still not be covered. This and what to me seems to me to be an unsustainable program, and the mandate are my 3 big sticking points.

  457. Where are you getting this information?  You like links-how bout you provide one, unless it is to Fox news.  I don’t trust anything Rupert or his minions say, ever.

    I am looking for a link for you on the breakdown of persons receiving public assistance and the duration they receive them. We will see if you are on the up and up or not.

    Sent from my iPhone

  458. Hi, Robert – You asked, “Where do you think those costs for Obama’s healthcare reform will come from?” That seems to me to a pretty straightforward question – a question that hardly needs an explanation of its origins, or where it “comes from”, in order to be addressed in a respectful manner. I think the plan suggests that costs can be met through a combination of increased revenue from the larger number of participants (a basic tenet of any successful insurance plan: the biggest possible “pool”), a limitation in the amounts providers can and do charge the government for extravagant unnecessary medications and tests, increasing the availability of generic drugs, a greater emphasis on making preventive and health-maintenance programs more widely available, and so on.

    We are the ONLY “developed country” that does not have universal health care. You would expect that the wonderfulness of our current system would mean that our infant mortality rate would be among the lowest in the world, and the overall health rating of our populace among the highest. They are not. I am confident that the drafters of the plan have looked at Canada, England, France, the Scandinavian countries, and more, for ideas about how they all manage to make universal health care work, and work very successfully. None of these plans are “perfect’, but they do manage to make overall health care MUCH more affordable and effective for all their citizens. As a French friend once told me, “The US is great for extraordinary procedures and medical interventions, but lousy at overall care.”

    I, too, wish that ALL the various plans and promises, from all sides, were being presented with some modicum of detail. But, of course, any candidate is reluctant to be “specific” about ANYTHING during a campaign, lest he or she inadvertently alienate any potential voting group. Much “safer” to be vague on the stump, and just promise that things will get better after you’re elected… And then hope you can convince people to just “trust you”. A crappy way of doing things, but that seems to be what we get.

    I think you will find, likewise (speaking of vagueness), that some posters here – and on many other blogs –will NEVER actually ANSWER any of your questions, but will, instead, continue to re-question and re-question your inquiry, until you are driven nearly mad with frustration and “explanation” and “clarification” – none of which was ever really necessary, on your part, in the first place. And then, having dandled with you interminably – and always very politely – they will express their “sorrow”, disappointment, and surprised incomprehension, when you actually give up trying to get any answers from them. At least that’s been my experience… Even that there’s no guarantee I’ve actually learned from it!

    Thanks for posting…


  459. Anon, Im not sure where those increasing cost you note come from either. I can surmise that the cost from the healthcare bill will come from the portion the govt will kick in to assist low income people to meet the mandate. I’m currently self insured and will hopefully be moving to the new health insurance program our state will offer as that part of Obamacare kicks in Jan 2014. I pay nearly $300 a month right now for coverage with a $5k deductible and 4 office visits a year at $35 co-pay and about $1200 max in prescription bene’s. I’m in good health (knock on wood) so I hope I don’t have to ever use it because those deductibles have to be paid upfront to any care I would receive. So I’m looking forward to see what kind of price the new state based program will come in at, thanks to Obamacare. I’m not a big fan of the mandate portion of that reform, but hopefully some sort of Medicare for all can come out of it. And I’m not opposed to the Medicare program denying certain benefits to people of advanced age, from which the conservatives derive their death panels commentaries. Health Insurance companies deny services all the time. It only makes sense to me that Medicare does the same. If people want to pay for those high dollar operations that may extend life for months at best, out of their own pockets, I’m ok with that… at some point a line has to be drawn..

  460. He only had 133 days (less than 1 year) and even within that time there was Republican filibustering and obstructionism going on which prevented him from achieving some of his goals. And with all of this obstructionism, he still managed to do many good things. Most of which I am sure you will disagree were good or refute and say he didn’t really do. So why do I bother?

  461. Beth
    He had 2 years where he did not need a single Republican to pass anything he wanted.

  462. “Beth What examples do you have that would give you the impression he would do something illegal or disqualify him as President? Now on that subject, I did a little digging and Obama has somewhere around 80-90 broken campaign promises. Somehow I have the feeling you are holding Romney to a standard that you are not holding Obama too”?

    The only example I have is that he is hiding his taxes. People who hide things, hide them for a reason. I don’t know if he did something illegal and and I am not accusing him of doing so. But I want to know why he won’t show his taxes when he asked his VP candidate to do so.

    As for any of President Obama’s ‘broken’ campaign promises most of them are due to the obstructionism of the Republican party. Their motto has been say no to anything and everything no matter what, even if in doing so it hurts the country. And, NO I will not provide links. So don’t ask. Plenty have been provided on this site already, if you have been reading.

  463. “Where do you think those cost for Obama’s healthcare reform will come from?”

    I am not really sure what you mean by this question. I admit I do not know this bill inside and out, I just know with each passing day the cost for it seems to increase, to the point where all the projected savings are long gone. With debt projections where they are, I just cannot see how we can sustain it, and for me this is a critical point. I don’t want to get people’s hopes up then have the rug pulled out from under them because we created a program we cannot sustain.

  464. Greetings, porch people, especially Robert and Beth. Housing is a big issue right now with me. I recently did ankle research on housing for someone of very, very limited means in my area and came away deeply disappointed. It goes from one extreme to the other, such as being able to afford a highly priced unit in an award winning campus that requires at least one grand a month extra to rental units in buildings made just for people who have only perhaps a max of $30 grand a year for income. The award winning campus is a dream! The limited income buildings, not so much. Third class or less materials in the units, a very somnolent way too quiet atmosphere and a recurring 3% annual rise in rent per year. In sum, I can’t afford either one of these outfits inasmuch as my Social Security and suvivorship benefits from my husband’s annuity do not increase in the same way if at all. Moving in with one of my children is not an option due to space issues. I am in reasonably good health for my age and active but there will come a day when my health will only overtax my child’s ability to care for me, despite Medicare and the supplemental insurance. So, Robert, I can definitely appreciate the bind you are in. Good luck in your efforts to rectify the situation!

  465. Sorry no links at this moment. I’ll try to find some. But I have personal experience. I have worked with people / families who are on welfare. They ARE working people. They want to be self sufficient and independent. People on food stamps are working poor. Their salaries are not sufficient enough to feed themselves and their families. In order to qualify, you need to be working. I know this for a fact.

  466. Anon, Yes, we’ve covered quite a bit of ground here, but I tried to bring up subjects that were relevant to the conversation and did my best to explain the crossover… Where do you think those cost for Obama’s healthcare reform will come from?

    As far as Romney’s tax situation, its obvious he’s hiding something. Beyond that I don’t know ,but enjoy watching him squirm. For purposes of disclosure, I’m voting for Obama.. I don’t identify with either party and Im registered to vote as a party non-affiliated.

  467. Robert
    We have covered a bit of ground here so I don’t recall a conversation on the affordable health care act specifically. We were discussing in part the tax situation with Romney and if anyone had any evidence or if they were basing their opinions all on gut feelings.

    The part of the health care act that I don’t like is the projected up front costs, as well as the cost being 3 times what we were told it would be. Missing the mark on projected costs by 3 fold would get you your walking papers in most any other job. Either we were lied too or someone doesn’t know what they are doing.

  468. awww…Noah is back yet again. The prodigal troll.

  469. Anon ask Beth,
    Any links to back up your assertions?’

    Anon, I’m stepping in here just to say some of those abusers of the system are doctors and hospitals who over bill Medicare and Medicaid and provide more services than required to pad the billing amount. So, abuse of systems comes from many participants, not just those who are enrolled in such programs. And privatizing them would not stop abuse as the agencies that would be in place to oversee such abuses would also become privatized and what happened to the SEC and its lax nature in overseeing the securities industry (just read where Mary Shapiro who is over the SEC, was given a bonus of 9 million $ when she worked at FINRA, by the very CEO’s she refuses to pursue criminal actions against, Source: Bloomberg via The Week) would just become the norm even in privatized oversight agencies that oversee welfare type services. A I’ll wash your hand if you wash mine disposition will take over even in privatized institutions.

    Obama’s healthcare program labeled Obamacare by the conservatives, has in its provisions a way of saving 700 billion $ by protecting taxpayers from such abuses by providers of services. Of course, conservatives like Ryan, who even placed those 700 billion in savings in his own tax cut proposal, claim Obama is cutting services in Medicare/Medicaid falsely, because trying to reign in abuse of services by better reviewing claims does not constitute cutting benefits. I can think of a case where a hospital systems was fined huge for their abusive billing practices to the Medicare/Medicaid systems. The CEO of that company went on to become the governor of Florida. Amazing how conservatives can be so open minded when people basically convicted of defrauding the govt appeal to their prejudices and fears.. You can source this yourself because if you’re in the know, you know its true about the fraud case and the relationship the current Florida governor had to it.

  470. Beth
    What examples do you have that would give you the impression he would do something illegal or disqualify him as President?

    Now on that subject, I did a little digging and Obama has somewhere around 80-90 broken campaign promises. Somehow I have the feeling you are holding Romney to a standard that you are not holding Obama too?

  471. “Of course there are users and abusers in every system. But they are not the majority and not even a large minority as the Republicans would have us all think.”

    Any links to back up your assertions?

  472. Anonymous, I must say I am completely confused by this post. Of course someone who has been as two-faced as Mitt Romney would and could on one hand show a public face of being charitable and while on the other use tax loop holes to save money. He has been shown to be a hypocrite about other issues in the past. Why not be one about this?

  473. Robert, thanks for your explanation. Sorry if I was prying. I didn’t mean to do so.

    I am not in disagreement with your assessment of the situation about those who are in need of help. While many and even most who get assistance are not “in for life” as many Republicans seem to think, there are some who seem to be unable to use the assistance to lift themselves up out of their situations. It is the community’s job to care for these individuals in the best manner possible so as to keep them healthy and keep them from becoming a criminal element. In a utopian society, the community would be able to lift these individuals up out of the holes in which they live. But we do not live in that utopia.

    However, as I have said many times, the majority of people “using the system” (student loans, food stamps, welfare, Soc. Sec., Medicare. Medicaid, etc.) are not dependent life long, unless they are disabled and unable to work at all or have paid into the system for their entire working life and are now receiving those benefits to which they are now entitled. We are talking about hard working people who want to provide for themselves and their families and usually need some help getting to where they can find some independence in doing so.

    Of course there are users and abusers in every system. But they are not the majority and not even a large minority as the Republicans would have us all think.

  474. Actually I did answer where I got the information, I am sorry you missed it gato. Not sure what set you off but I am sorry you could not maintain your civility. Best of luck to you.

  475. The choice to not take the full charitable deduction allowed Romney to inflate his tax rate to 14.1 percent but he can recoup that money after the election by filing an amended return. It is interesting where and how he did donate his money.


    Sooo he orders the most expensive thing on the menu knowing the check will be split 4 ways!


  476. Oh, come on, Non… Get real. Of course one would look for loopholes (and we all know what at least a few of them are), so he or she could have more money to distribute to whatever charities he or she chooses.

    Romney hasn’t made “millions in salary” for quite some time now. He’s got his money making him money. That’s what money can do.

    You are very eloquent, and write very well. But all your fine verbiage does not cover up the fact (yes, FACT) that you have never answered a single question that anyone has ever asked you. Your response to any question is another series of questions, followed by a lecture.

    I, myself, have asked you at least three times to provide some real corroboration for the story you posted about Romney’s wonderfulness with the VA hospital, and you have NEVER responded with anything factual.

    At some point, one becomes seen, in the eyes of others, as the pompous, pointless, and pedantic bore he really is. In my opinion, you have reached that point – probably some time ago… I’ve sat across many a dinner table from people who speak like you do, and always tried my best to engage them in meaningful conversation. It never worked. It still doesn’t.

    So I’m done with you. If others continue to respond to you, god bless. You won’t be hearing from me again. I mean it. Really.


  477. Beth, I could probably find a better deal.. but when you’re locked into a lease and have to pay a break lease fee that is 1.5 times your rent, timing is everything. the good deals on available apts in the areas you want to live in, aren’t always available when your lease is up. So for the little money I would save, it would be eaten up in paying a break lease fee and would take several years to break even.. Certainly there’s better deals out there and worse. The point I was trying to make was big money gets hand outs and for lack of a better term, “corporate” welfare, too…On a different note, but relevant to the conversation in general, I’ve volunteered at places that provide free meals to the homeless. My observations over the years doing it showed me there is always going to be a certain level of people who are unable or unwilling to live up to the community standards of financial independence (many never went through that conversion that most do when we go from being dependent to independent. I blame a lot of that on bad parenting). So what should we do with them? We can provide minimal sustenance through welfare type programs which is just enough for many of them to not have to steal to get by, or we can eliminate the welfare programs, as the republicans would like, and incarcerate the homeless and poor, as stealing to get by becomes the most likely choice of those who have nothing to lose. Incarcerating them as opposed to providing minimal sustenance in the form of a welfare check is more expensive. What’s the average cost of keeping someone in prison? $50 – 75K a year (not to mention healthcare cost they are afforded in prison) as opposed to $6k or 8k or even 12k – 15k a year in the form of a welfare check, to keep them out of the more expensive for profit prison system? PS – I can see how conservatives can be angry at the failure of some of the welfare programs, particularly those programs revolving around free or govt paid for housing that became nothing but crime ridden hell holes, as was evidenced in the 70s sitcom, Good Times (Cabrini Green in Chicago comes to mind)… What do you do? Some people are always going to find a way to work the system, both on the top of the income levels and at the bottom..

  478. Beth
    Logically what your looking for doesn’t make sense. The purpose of using these so called loopholes(whatever that is) is to gain a financial advantage I would presume. Why would Romney on one hand seek loopholes for a financial gain while on the other hand working in public service for free? A man in his position makes millions of dollars a year, why would he then give up millions in salary if he was that kind of man?

  479. Frankly I don’t know exactly what is possible. I don’t know if the President of the United States has access to a private citizen’s tax returns (even if he is running for the presidency). It seems possible, but I don’t know for sure. But you brought up the point of cheating in your post so I addressed it. I am more worried about whether or not Romney has used the system (i.e. tax loop holes to pay less taxes) to his benefit and how he sees himself as above others who use the system (i.e. student loans, food stamps, welfare, Soc. Sec., Medicaid, Medicare, etc.) to help themselves get a leg up when they are having trouble. He views those people as moochers and victims who ‘don’t take personal responsibility”. Just saying!

    I’ve said this many times already on this blog, but I’ll repeat myself until I’m blue in the face if need be. Those who use the system to get a leg up, are usually hard working people who would rather not ask for help but know that without it they are not going to be able to take care of themselves and their families. Most of them, once solvent, are happy to give back to the community in any way possible. While the uber-rich find loop holes to avoid paying their fair share of taxes, which they can well afford. None of them would starve or be less able to afford to feed, house and clothe their families if they paid their full share of taxes. They wouldn’t even be less able to afford the extras in life that most of us only dream about. They might just have to defer some gratification and not get as many of them each month / year. In the mean time, the middle class is being taxed out their —-, nickel and dimed right out of the middle class. There are no real wonderful loop holes for us (nor should there be). There should just be a fair tax cold for everyone!

  480. Robert, I don’t understand. It sounds like you can get a better space for the same money or at lest a comparable space for less money. Why pay more for less? And frankly the land lord is definitely getting the best deal. They usually do!

  481. However, Romney actions seem to say he is owed/entitled/bought the office and we have no right to ask him to prove he is the right person for the office.

    Which actions? The 28 years of community service for which he asked for $0.00 of compensation?

  482. IMO, it boils down to Romney’s character. Is he honest with principles or dishonest or morally corrupt? It is not so much about his taxes or how much he paid. It is about how he came to that figure. A smart accountant can juggle things around in such a manner, that is legal because of the loopholes, but minimizes the tax burden (someone paid good money for those loopholes). And some might say that is smart and some might say it borders on dishonest. If he has nothing to hide why doesn’t he just show us his taxes?

    It is about character. When 4 people go out to dinner is he willing to split the bill 4 ways or does he itemize exactly what each person owes….or does he order the most expensive thing on the menu knowing the bill will be split evenly 4 ways. Character!

    But more importantly, IMO….when one runs for an office he is ASKING for the job in the form of our vote. And we have the right to ask him to prove he is the right person for that office. He should be willing to prove it. However, Romney actions seem to say he is owed/entitled/bought the office and we have no right to ask him to prove he is the right person for the office.


  483. Right, but don’t forget the one about the widow and her two pennies. Mitt Romney doesn’t diminish his personal lifestyle one iota doing all these things. Don’t have a problem with it; glad he’s giving, it’s good for him; still think he would do little or nothing for middle America, which is most of us, and won’t vote for him for that reason.

  484. “If Romney cheated on his taxes it IS relevant.”

    Again, I point out that as he is running for President. Do you really think Obama didn’t send the IRS to check his records? They have access to everything. You can bet if there was illegal activities, we would have known by now? Or do you think Romney has the ability to fool the IRS?

  485. I live in what’s called a tax credit, Section 42, restricted income bldg. It was built in an area that needed revitalization to avoid becoming another ghetto. It’s supposed to provide affordable living to low income people. To qualify for my apt, you can’t make over $38k. I don’t get a tax credit, the owners of the bldg do. I pay $916 a month to rent a 955 sq ft apt. For comparisons, my friend who lives about 7 blocks away, pays $700 for the same size duplex, but she has a yard and a garage and its a really nice place (so is mine). I don’t have a yard or a garage with my apt. The block down from me, there was an apt for rent in a 7 unit bldg. The rent was $825 for the same size apt as mine. It compares to my apt with the same interior accessories as mine has. It came with its own off street parking place though, mine doesn’t. Who’s the moocher here? Me for living in an apt bldg that gets tax credits, or the owners of the bldg for getting higher rates for their apts than many in the neighborhood and also for getting all the benefits of those tax credits?

  486. Hey Anonymous, thanks for the apology. But I want to make one thing perfectly clear. If Romney cheated on his taxes it IS relevant. If he used tax loop holes to pay less than his fair share, it IS relevant. He called people who need help from the government moochers and victims and said they didn’t take personal responsibility. If he either cheated on his taxes or used tax loop holes to pair less than his fair share that is certainly a form of NOT taking personal responsibility and being a moocher. The pot calling the kettle black.

  487. Hi, Sidney – I heard that they were considering having Romney do a Jolson thing, but (slightly) cooler heads prevailed…

    Can these people be any more callous, self-righteous, and deceitful? (I’m sure similar things have been done, many times, by pols of all stripes, but they just didn’t get the press. I would have thought any of them equally callous, self-righteous, and deceitful, had I known about it… These dudes don’t even care if everyone knows what they’re doing; that’s what’s so galling.)


  488. Yes, and the dark makeup he had on was not to suck up to the brown people, according to his staff, Romney had sunburn. LOL

  489. It seems when a Univision town hall was being taped tickets were given just to college students. But when not enough conservative college students were interested the Romney campaign asked they be allowed to open it to their other supporters. And if not perhaps they would have to reschedule the town hall. So Romney bussed in boisterous supporters from around Florida who loudly cheered his performance. Obama accepted the rules and took what ever came with the audience which was not quite as enthusiastic as Romney’s appeared to be. I guess you have to stack the deck when ever you can if you can’t win with what you have.



  490. gato if that has been the brunt of your focus all along I do not understand why you care about Romney’s tax returns. He isn’t doing anything different than anyone else in his tax bracket isn’t doing. Seeing those will shed no new light on that topic if that is indeed your focus.

  491. Auntie Jean, who the heck are you? I think you should have your own blog, so we can all argue below it. I am a conservative Rep. and I love what you way. Of course, we apply all that narcissist stuff to Obama, but the truth of the whole post can not be denied. Thank you.

  492. Hi Congenial Gang,

    Democracy is a messy political system. Especially when combined with a theocracy, a Monarch, Emperor, or Dictator can run a much more efficient system of keeping the populace in lock-step conformity. Hitler’s apologists always said that at least, he kept the trains running on time.

    I recently read this quote of a concept by Jennifer Sheehy-Skeffington: “An ideology can provide a satisfying narrative that explains chaotic events and collective misfortunes in a way that flatters the virtue and competence of believers, while being vague or conspiratorial enough to withstand skeptical scrutiny. So let these ingredients brew in the mind of a narcissist with a lack of empathy, a need for admiration, and fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance and goodness, and the result can be a drive to implement a belief system that results in the [misery of thousands and even] deaths of millions.

    Euphemisms can work wonders too! Such as “Passed Away instead of Death”, “Rectification of Frontiers”, “Elimination of Unreliable Elements”, “Ethnic Cleansing”, “ Extraordinary Rendition,”

    The Israeli novelist Amos Oz made a useful analogy that we can apply to our messy presidential campaign(s):

    “Tragedies can be resolved in one of two ways: there is the Shakespearean resolution and there is the Chekhovian one. At the end of a Shakespearean tragedy, the stage is strewn with dead bodies and maybe there’s some justice hovering high above. A Chekhov tragedy, on the other hand ends with everybody disillusioned, embittered, heartbroken, disappointed, absolutely shattered, BUT STILL ALIVE.”

    And so……..we will survive November just in time to gear up for the 2014 and 2016 elections.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam. Peace.

    Auntie Jean

  493. I thought we figured that out 2 days ago! lol!


    Finally! I can now go and get some sleep, knowing that a very compelling part of my day today has, apparently, been somehow worthwhile.


  495. You are right Beth I misread that. apologies. I guess when it comes to running the country, I don’t really care what he paid, matter of fact I think it is irrelevant. The IRS knows what he paid. If he violated laws you can bet by now they have gone over his returns with a fine tooth comb, either on their own or at Obama’s instance. Either way, if he didn’t violate any laws, then there should not be any concern. Even if he paid a low tax rate, we should be mad at the laws for letting him do it, not because he followed those laws. I do know last year he only claimed $2.25 in charitable donations out of the $4 million he donated, so he overpaid.

  496. Anonymous, I NEVER questioned Romney’s charitable donations in my post. I question why he won’t share his taxes with us.

  497. Sidney, do you have anything linking Romney to that or is that a guess?

    Beth As for what Romney has donated, there was an article out last week showing that he averaged 13.1% of his income since 2000 to charity. This past year he donated 30%.

  498. In 2009 the justice department caught over 30,000 Americans had committed income tax evasion usingnswiss bank accounts. Our government offered these tax evaders amnesty, if they paid the IRS all past due taxes owed. This information would be on Romneys tax forms if he released them. He committed tax evasion, got caught, and wants to keep it a secret. That’s the answer. The only answer.

  499. Thanks Gato for the clear, concise treatment of this topic. I always enjoy reading your comments and find I agree you most of the time. It is a pleasure to read your comments, even on the rare times I don’t agree!

  500. It’s great that Romney has those “wonderful” tax returns in the years when he was already planning his run for the presidency. Why, however, does he refuse to show his tax returns for the years prior to that? One can only wonder if there is something about them he doesn’t want us to know / see. He required his running mate to show 10 years of tax returns in order to qualify for the job. Why should we ask for any less of him?

  501. going4wardinreverse
    What are you counting and could you list the 6 each in turn so I can better follow? Thanks.

  502. To point 3, to have a conversation, there must be points of view brought on by both sides. Places like this and in the media are not having the conversation, just Romney and his team.

    As for the hospital, the majority were not disabled but homeless. The facility was an old VA hospital turned homeless shelter. As for the “fine” part you misunderstood the comment. He was talking to the manager about how much milk they go through, and Romney said maybe we should teach them to milk cows.

    “In addition, YOU put forth this particular narrative about Romney’s charitable behavior… So that’s what I’ve been attempting to address.”

    But in my case I stated actual events. You stated conjecture based on what? Feelings? I cannot know the guy nor what is in his heart. I can guess, but not state with any certainty. So instead I look at public record, and conversations with people who have had dealings with him to formulate an educated opinion. Most of what I see being said about him is pure speculation and guesswork. Neither of which is typically found to be an accurate or effective way to form a credible opinion.

    The media has a strong Liberal slant to its reporting. The vast majority of the MSM have an agenda that is considered first when reporting. Facts seem to come a distant second. I will say I have seen CNN give some of the Obama people a hard line of questions, but in return his people refuse to answer the questions, begging the question as to what they are hiding.

    As for my source, first off I am not a man, not that it really matters. Second, my husband was channel surfing when we happened upon a man telling this story mid way through some political show. I do not remember what show it was nor do I know who the man was, other than he was the manager of the facility giving his account of an encounter he had with Romney back in 94.

  503. By my latest count it is Gato by six touchdowns, zero for non.

  504. Non – Forgot about that part. I am uncomfortable because he was referring to a group of veterans, in a GOVERNMENT-SUPPORTED hospital, who are there because they have suffered grievous injuries to their bodies and/or minds from their service, many of whom are probably qualified to run their own companies, work as IT experts, serve their communities in a thousand ways as teachers, firefighters, machinists, executives, businessmen or women, or whatever… Suggesting that they’d be “fine” if they could milk a cow seems a little… Well, frankly, “insulting” is the word that comes to mind. Is that clear enough?


  505. Non – Let me address your latest remarks on a point by point basis, as best I can:

    (1) Looking for facts is not the same as looking for trouble. If a search for facts turns up trouble, so be it.

    (2) Glad to hear you are still pondering, and certainly understand your dismay at feeling that you must vote for the “lesser of two evils”. As long as our government can be bought by anonymous (excuse me) corporate donors, I’m afraid that sort of thing will continue to our choice.

    (3) You can hardly state with any modicum of accuracy that “no one is having a conversation about Obama’s record…” That is the primary thing that Romney’s campaign has been focused on, using whatever information they have, and distorting other material to suit their message – except in instances where their candidate does or says something “off message”, to which they feel they must respond immediately, before getting back to how they characterize Obama’s record. One of the primary reasons that “…the conversation [about Romney] is shrouded in what appear to be unfounded speculation” is that he is so gol-durn secretive! He won’t talk much about his money; he won’t talk much about Bain Capital; he won’t talk much about his term as Governor of Massachusetts; and he won’t talk much about his faith – unless he is forced to do so, by either the other candidate, or by that pesky media. In addition, YOU put forth this particular narrative about Romney’s charitable behavior… So that’s what I’ve been attempting to address.

    Penultimately, if you think someone is worth investigating because the media “hates” him, you’d best look at BOTH candidates with equal scrutiny – because both have been the object of everything the media can throw at them. And anyone who runs for President should expect that to be the case. That’s what the media is supposed to do in a “free” country. Whining about relentless scrutiny from the unwashed masses indicates, to me, that the candidate either has a lot to hide, or just isn’t up to the job.

    And finally (at last!), if you have any further documentation about this particular charitable act on Romney’s part – I ask, yet again, third time – put it forth. If not, just “man up”, say you don’t have any, and we can take it from there… Maybe with a little less lecturing. Maybe not. Worth a try.


  506. [Republican] Disdain for [American] Workers

    PEACE ~ Δ

  507. I was still wondering what made you feel uncomfortably with Romney’s statement about teaching them to milk cows?

  508. Well I guess the old saying is true, if you are looking for trouble, you will find it. As one of those undecided, and an independent, I am vested in neither candidate. Last few elections I have voted in it has been a lesser of two evils vote rather than voting for someone I believe in. This election has me leaning in the direction of Romney for reasons I have mentioned before. No one is having a conversation about Obama’s record, and the conversation about Romney is always shrouded in what appear to be unfounded speculation. If the media hates this guy so bad, maybe he is worth taking a better look at.

  509. Non – Since at least one of us seems compelled to keep looking for actual facts, my “speculation” about guilt on Romney’s part is based on material in the only article I could find about the issue, as posted on http://www.inquisitr.com on Saturday, September 13, 2012. No author credited on the post.

    The writer states, referring to Romney’s “milking remark”, and I quote: “The day after the complex tour, when all the media cameras were gone, the Republican candidate called the VA hospital to apologize for his remark.”

    In my experience (as limited, mindless, doctrinaire, and ill-informed as you seem to find it), people do not usually apologize for something unless they have some guilt about having done it. And if, perchance, they offer an insincere apology, only because they feel they must, they are liars.

    Would you care to address the justification for your belief in the goodness and sincerity of the man speaking, when he thought he was off-camera, at the Boca Raton, $50,000 a plate, donors’ dinner…?

    Actually… I’m sorry I asked that… I apologize.


  510. “My “speculation” that Romney might have acted out of shame is just as “valid” as your speculation that he did not. Only Romney might know what his actual motivations are for anything he says or does. And even that is by no means a certainty.”

    My ascertains were based on actual events of charity where no act of guilt was required. Just a good man with a desire to do good. What events did you draw upon to come with your speculation that he acts out of guilt?

  511. Hi, Non – I am not sure that my daring to speculate on something about which I know very little – and my asking to know more, as you seem to have overlooked – is any “worse” than your retelling a story that you heard from Glenn Beck… Speaking of people who have an “agenda”, I might add!

    Again, if you can provide some factual corroboration for this narrative, please do. I am, in fact, trying to “dig deep”, just as you suggest that thoughtful people do. (Obviously, you didn’t need to remind me of that fact!) I was hoping to hear from you some factual documentation, rather than your version of an “opinion paper” (complete with your judgmental conclusion) about why I think as I do, and what I believe.

    My “speculation” that Romney might have acted out of shame is just as “valid” as your speculation that he did not. Only Romney might know what his actual motivations are for anything he says or does. And even that is by no means a certainty.

    As for the impact of guilt: Some people spend the entire rest of their lives “atoning” for some wrong they have done. I am not aware of any moral statute of limitations on atonement, even though you seem to feel that someone else can decide for any individual how much atonement is “enough” for him or her. That’s a pretty almighty perch for you to assume to occupy, I must say!

    By the way – and I could almost kick myself for my inability to avoid tacking this on – one of the things Romney does say, when HE thinks “no one” is looking, is that he dismisses 47% of Americans as moochers and lay-abouts. (And don’t even bother to come back with Obama’s statement, made several years ago, about some people becoming bitter and clinging to their guns and religion. When you read the context of that statement, it is abundantly clear that he felt their doing so was a RESULT of their having been disenfranchised by their society, not an ingrained character flaw, and that government should be doing much better by them – and that position is the exact OPPOSITE of “dismissal.” That is empathy.)

    But, now that I think of it, “dismissal” seems to be something with which you are supremely comfortable; it’s not clear at all where you are with empathy.


  512. I am on an iPad and I don’t know how to post links, so why don’t you google “how much does the Mormon church really donate to the needy?”

  513. Hi Gato. Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree that highly publicizing causes helps get other people to sign on, but a lifestyle of being generous is what Christians are called to, and it is nothing to toot our own horns about. It should simply arise from who we are. In fact, it should surprise us that anyone would find it unusual.

    I am including here a clip from a sermon by Greg Boyd (Woodland Hills Church, St. Paul, MN) about greed. I think you, and everyone who frequents this blog will like it. In fact, you all would probably like a lot of things Greg says. He has a blog called reknew.org where he examines what evangelical Christians have been taught for years, basically asking, is this true?

    So, here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20sa4pKbxAo

    Enjoy, Sue

  514. And Romney’s original comment, about milking cows, still doesn’t sit right with me.

    I honestly saw nothing wrong with his comment, at worst it was some dry humor, at best good advice. If a man needs milk, what better thing to do than to teach him how to get it. If a man needs a fish, teach him to fish. Rather than making a man dependent, I think it is better to show him how he can do it on his own. Others wont always have your best interest at heart, you will always have your own best interest. I just see no downside to this comment. What part did you find offensive?

  515. Hi, Sue – Thanks for the clarification. I was brought up in a Methodist family, from which I have digressed somewhat (but with no objections to fundamental Christian beliefs; just looking for similarity everywhere), and I’m obviously no Biblical scholar!

    I guess I was thinking more of the very public loaves and fishes events, the healing miracles, and statements made about when you do something for the least of these, you do it for me, and so on. And, of course, you are correct that he had a real “job” to do in a very short time.

    And I’m not challenging your references at all. I think recommending being modest – even secretive – about charitable work was a good reminder not to do those things in order to show yourself, literally, “holier than thou.” As Jesus evidently admonished, “… don’t do it to be honored by men.” And I agree.

    I do, though, very much admire people who go out and do something for others and are very public about their doing so – because MY main reaction to that is usually, “Hey! That person (or group) really cares about cholera in Haiti or free computers for impoverished kids, or schools in Afghanistan, or whatever, so maybe I should join them. If they can do it, so can I.” Or something along those lines. I almost never think, “Oh, they really so full of themselves…” But maybe I’m just a perpetual Pollyanna…!

    And Romney’s original comment, about milking cows, still doesn’t sit right with me… Just can’t help it. Seems heartless and uncomprehending and – as so many of his remarks seem to be – disdainfully condescending.

    Thanks for your response! Keep ‘em coming.


  516. gatodicima

    I guess I don’t understand the need to speculate on something you admit you have no information on, especially with your assumptions being so obviously negative. Also, charity isn’t a contest. It is not to compare what others have done as they are not running for a public office, but to (A) show what the man does when no one is looking and (B) what kind of man he is.

    I disagree that it was guilt that motivated Romney. One doesn’t do something for 2 years out of guilt. Most would agree under that premise that it would be over-atonement.

    I understand you are all fully vested in Obama and for a variety of reasons cannot vote for anyone but Obaba no matter how bad things get, but there is SO much factual evidence in his actions during his life that clearly shows this is a good person. Objective people just are not buying the narrative you are trying to sell.

    The positive I have seen out of this is the people who just take an over all general look at the candidates but don’t dig too deep are realizing the facts are not matching the rhetoric and are leaning to voting for Romney. Call it a sympathy vote seeing the media going after what they perceive as a good guy. So by all means continue to be unreasonable. The undecided are not vested in either candidate. They will judge Obama by his record even as Obama, you, and the media will not. They will look at what is being said about Romney and judge if he is getting treated unfairly. In this election, the undecided WILL determine who our next President will be.

  517. Sidney, we need a little verification here.

  518. Gato, here is what Jesus actually said about giving to the needy, from Matthew 6:2-3: “So, when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But, when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret.”

    That is indeed how Christians roll.

    Jesus, being Jesus, had a message to deliver during his short time of ministry, but even he often told the recipients of his miraculous healing not to tell anyone (which they promptly went out and did anyway :-))


  519. Mormonism is a for profit business, all tax free. They own shopping malls, cattle farms, schools and many other profitable ventures. In reality they donate only 1% to help the poor. They are a scam.

  520. Dear Non – I, too, am curious about the origins of your story of Romney’s selfless generosity. Were you personally involved in some way? The amount of detail is extraordinary! The only reference I can find on the web is that Glenn Beck sent out some of his “staff”, evidently a few weeks ago, to find “stories about Romney that the press isn’t reporting.”

    Well, son of a gun, Glenn’s “people” were able to “find” a story about Romney’s visiting a VA hospital in Boston, when he was running for Governor, and Romney is reported to have made the “milk the cows” remark. Beck was evidently planning a show based on that story. I do not know whether that program has aired yet or not.

    I do not usually take Glenn Beck’s “reporting” very seriously, I must say. So if you have some other corroboration about the origins of the story, that would be much appreciated.

    Even if the narrative is entirely factual, I am not quite sure how much extraordinary merit I see in one’s being “generous” or “charitable” in order to atone for an off-the-cuff and totally insensitive remark he has made. It is certainly better than doing nothing, but does not strike me as evidence of genuine compassion…

    In fact, it sounds a lot more like guilt or shame to me. At least the story indicates that Romney realized that he should never have made that remark in the first place. (Did that remark show any compassion or genuine concern?)

    As for being so very “modest” about his charitable works, a lot of his charitable donations go to his Church (not, in itself, a bad thing, of course). And the Church does a great deal to help its less fortunate members, and sometimes those outside their own congregation, as well. (They are not particularly secretive about their involvement in those charitable works.) HOWEVER, some of that money also goes directly to political activities sponsored by the Church, which are distinctively outside the Church’s jurisdiction – to California, for example – to try to influence legislation that would favorably reflect the Church’s opinions about how other people, outside the LDS faith, should behave in their personal lives. And THAT I definitely do not consider “charity” in any sense of the word.

    Finally, as I believe I have mentioned before, there are plenty of very wealthy philanthropists who are outspokenly connected to their charitable work – Bill and Melinda Gates, for example. And it is my belief that they publicize their involvement not because of their vanity, but because they know their connection may well draw others to contribute to causes they are supporting.

    I cannot agree with your statement that being silent about caring for others, and doing “good works” is an accurate description of “how Christians roll.” As far as we know, Jesus certainly didn’t keep his beliefs and good works under wraps. He made it very clear not only what he valued, but what he thought others should value, as well. That’s how THAT Christian rolled.


  521. I never heard the milk story and I’m sure that if it was true fox news would still be talking about romneys generously. Mormons HAVE to give 10% to their church, if they fall behind and owe money they will be prevented from attending their own child’s wedding in a Mormon temple until they pay up. And honey, you just go on believing the best about Mitt Romney. As for me, I am SURE in my beliefs that if you were on fire that Mitt Romney wouldn’t spit on you.

  522. Truly touching. Such generosity is to be admired, and Mr. Romney deserves credit for helping so many people in the hospital. Where is the hospital?

  523. I did not know giving to a church was evil. I disagree. That said, he still does more outside the church than you will do in your lifetime.

    Back in 1994, when Romney was running for senate, he visited a VA hospital the housed 500-600 homeless vets(they were all registered voters). When he came in, he talked to a few people then the manager of the facility. After introducing himself he asked the manager if he could look at his books. The manager agreed and for about 45 minutes Romney went over the financial books of the place.

    After finishing with that he met with many of the other vets, gave a small speech, all the while the press was there taking pictures and recording the event. As he was about to leave he again spoke with the manager and asked him what his greatest problem was. The manager replied milk. He then went on to explain that he gave each vet a pint of milk in the morning and a pint in the evening, for a total of 7000 pints of milk each week, and it was becoming more and more difficult to come up with the money to pay for this. Jokingly Romney made the comment that maybe they should teach the vets to milk cows.

    The press heard this and for the weeks leading up to the election they crucified him for this comment. What the news did not report, because Romney refused to let it get out, was that the next day Romney called the manager. He told the manager that he was taking responsibility for the comment, that this was his fault, that he owned the comment, and that he was sorry if his comment had any negative impact on his program.

    The following week his shipment of 7000 pints of milk arrived. When the manager looked at the bill, it was half price. The next week, the bill again was half its normal price. The manager asked the milk man who was paying the bill. The milk man replied that he was not allowed to tell. Two months later, three months, a year later, his bill was still half price. Finally 2 years had gone by and the milk man was delivering his last load of milk to the vet hospital as he was due to retire the next day. The manager again approached the milk man and said, you have to tell me who has been paying the bill these past two years. The milk man replied, Romney.

    Even though Romney was in an election, even though the press was raking him over the coals, Romney kept quiet about his act of charity. That’s just how real Christians roll. Real charity is selfless, that is why no one knows about most of the charitable work Romney has done. We have a truly good man running for President, and they vilify him without knowing what they are talking about. He is doing what they have spent their whole lives whining the rich should be doing, only he isn’t taking credit for it, he isn’t doing it for his own personal glory. He is a true man of faith. He doesn’t just talk the talk, he walks the walk.

  524. mittens “charity” was mainly his church which REQUIRES a 10% tithe anyway.


  525. Mitt Romney paid $1.95 million in federal income taxes on 2011′s investment income of $13.7 million, meaning his effective tax rate was 14.1 percent.

    In 2010, Romney paid nearly $3 million in federal income taxes on his 2010 investment income of $21.7 million, meaning his effective tax rate was 13.9 percent.

    Of course, the Republican presidential candidate’s tax rate for both years was pushed downwards by the amount he donated to charity.

    Romney’s 2011 tax return shows charitable contributions totaling a little over $4 million, meaning he donated 30 percent of his income. Romney’s 2010 tax return shows charitable contribution of almost $3 million, meaning he donated about 11 percent of his income to charity.

    And as for the 20-year summary of the GOP candidate’s tax returns his campaign released Friday, Romney donates on average 13.45 percent of his adjusted gross income to charity each year.

    “That’s nearly twice the rate of President Obama, who according to his tax returns from 2000 through 2011 donated just less than 7 percent of his adjusted gross income to charities,” the Washington Times notes.

    One last thing: Romney’s 2011 tax return shows he claimed a deduction for only $2.25 of the $4 million he donated.

    “The Romneys’ generous charitable donations in 2011 would have significantly reduced their tax obligation for the year,” the family’s trustee Brad Malt explains.

    “The Romney‘s thus limited their deduction of charitable contributions to conform to the Governor’s statement in August, based upon the January estimate of income, that he paid at least 13% in income taxes in each of the last 10 years,” he adds.

    Simply put, because Romney didn’t claim the full deduction his charitable donations entitled him to, he overpaid in taxes to the federal government.

  526. I love you ladies! If only you could adopt me…..

  527. Well, BO! You have outshone even yourself with this one… You are one clever and incisive writer… Way to go!


  528. RMoney’s Got 99 Problems

    PEACE ~ Δ

  529. [...] intertubes’ snarkiest 80-somethings weigh in on the you-know-what video: Ladies, Mr. Romney would like you to take personal responsibility for your lives, please. See, [...]

  530. Cynthia, sorry. I didn’t mean to imply this was a Federal ‘program’. Yes, to keep corporations within their states, state legislators offer them these sweet deals. Sorry for the confusion. However, Romney has endorsed this practice as well as the outsourcing of jobs to foreign countries.

  531. Flipping Walmart for one. Never drive in the damn parking lot if I can help it, and no, not SAMs either!

  532. I’ll be canceling his bigoted stereotyping vote on Election Day! I CAN’T WAIT! I will derive intense personal satisfaction from doing so, and I don’t even give his stupid ill-judged responses the time of day anymore: UAW? oh that one’s trash! OBAMA 2012

    Sent from my iPhone

  533. My Daughter worked hard for her education whitch first there was love and lots of hugs and all though I worked full time I spent time in her class room, went on field trips, etc. I taught her from the begining that education was important. She worked took on student loans, got grants. Then a job, paying off those loans. She went back to school to get her law degree and took on an even larger student loan, now she has two to pay off. She started working for a law firm the day after she graduated passed the bar a few months later. She is successfull in whatever she does. She wrote an article that was in The Law Review. And is paying her student loans. She is a white American, Had no Pell grant, worked hard for where she is at and works hard to keep what she has.

    sidney, thank you for finally mentioning Mitts offshore accounts that he DOES NOT pay taxes on.. How do we know, he will not show his tax returns..
    There is so much wrong with the Repubs/tea party.. If it was not so sad that people will vote for him it would be laughable

  534. UAW, most of the voter ID laws, like the one in PA, have been passed recently (within the last 6 mos). As has been demonstrated by the most recent incident in NC, for the most part, dead people aren’t voting. When NC tried to purge thousands of voters from their rolls who were thought to be dead, it was in fact found out that they most of them were not dead. There were no incidents of any dead people having voted found.

  535. Meanwhile, Botox Annie has her sphincter all puckered up over the criticism The MittWit is getting from Peggy Noonan and other GOPers. She penned the following letter to all of them:Peggy’s column (among other things) drove The MittWit’s over-botoxed wife to pen the following open letter to all republicans:

    Dear Fellow-Republican,

    I’m not a happy camper.

    Over the past few days, some so-called Republicans have taken it upon themselves to lob some pretty harsh words in the direction of my husband. Now, it’s one thing when Mitt gets criticized by the forty-seven per cent of Americans who are parasites sucking at capitalism’s teat. But when former Reagan speechwriter Peggy Noonan calls his campaign “a rolling calamity,” it’s time for Ann Romney to kick some ass.

    Which brings me to you. This is not a fundraising appeal. Lord knows this campaign has all the money it needs, especially since Mitt went to Vegas and promised Sheldon Ade…lson he’d bomb Tehran on Day One. As Mitt’s wife, I’m asking you to pledge something far more valuable:

    Your silence.

    By signing the pledge form below, you become an official member of Ann Romney’s Circle of Silence, an élite tier of the Romney for President Campaign. As a member of the C.O.S., you will receive priority ticketing to the Inauguration, as well as a collectible “Loose Lips Sink Mitt” ball gag. All you have to do is shut the f*ck up until Election Day.

    That’s right, for the next forty-six days, I’m asking you to bite your tongue every time Mitt says or does something idiotic. If you think that sounds difficult, welcome to my world.

    And Peggy Noonan, if you’re reading this: you want a piece of Ann Romney? Then get in the ring, girlfriend, and I’ll mess you up good.

    Vote for Mitt,

  536. Talking about the working poor at Staples – you’re being generous just by suggesting that they even get to work full time. How many major businesses are staffed by part-timers and not full timers.

  537. Yeah Gato,

    I’m always looking for the lighter side of this farce.


    Paul Ryan speech at the AARP

    “That’s gold Jerry…comedy GOLD!”

    PEACE ~ Δ

  538. Romney’s 2011 tax return comedy!

    “There’s something both hilarious and pathetic about a presidential candidate manipulating his deductions so he ends up paying what he considers a more politically appropriate tax rate. But it’s especially ludicrous in light of Romney’s numerous claims that he’s always paid the government exactly what he owes, “and not a dollar more,” implying that anyone who voluntarily gave the government more than he legally owed was either a fool or a moron.”

    PEACE ~ Δ

  539. Beth – Re: Fourth, on the subject of corporate tax breaks…

    I heard this subject discussed the other day but the talk was about some states not the federal government practicing this. Further info can be found at the following:


    Are you sure the federal government allows this?


  540. Hi, Whirled – Can’t resist a little smirking on this one… Hope he’s not in a dumpster! Gato

  541. Who let this guy slip through?

    Voting Expert On Fox:
    Voter Fraud Is Extremely Rare,
    “On The Order Of Winning The Lottery”

    You can probably find him in a dumpster behind the studio now. ;)

    PEACE ~ Δ

  542. Hi, UAW – The stereotype of the lazy moocher Welfare mom is so not useful – as is the stereotype of the redneck hillbilly, the effete liberal snob, the predatory black teenage dude, the under-educated working stuff, and on and on and on… All the way to the really vulgar ones.

    As for the correlation between employment rates and food stamps, that makes perfect sense, don’t you think? People lose their jobs; they run out of money (especially those working in jobs that don’t give them any “extra” to save); they can’t buy food; they resort to food stamps.

    To me, the more relevant correlation is between the globalization of large corporations, and unemployment in this country. The more “global” an organization becomes, the easier it is for it to hire non-US workers who are willing to work more, and for less money, because they live in economies where a dollar (US) a day – or less – is enough to live on. (Also, please check out Beth’s description of how “corporate taxes” are actually structured.) If you want to look at some pretty impressive “moochers”, just look at the big names on the Stock Market ticker.


  543. Hi, Beth – And an excellent rant it is! I was unaware of how the corporate tax thing is structured. Certainly sounds like a twisted form of “welfare”… Take money out of workers’ salaries, get the government to match that money, and put it all into “growing” your business (but probably not raising any salaries other than for the Members of the Board, to reward them for their brilliance). Now, if you can do that AND outsource fifty-percent of the work, your company is probably going to look pretty darn good on the ol’ Stock Market! I suspect Romney is intimately familiar with this process, and that’s probably exactly what he’s thinking of when he talks about “growing the economy”…


  544. Beth….
    are you actually saying that they’ve just started talking about voter fraud and needing ID’s…..your a few years behind……..the justice dept(DEMS) are actually the ones stopping reform…..

    OK…simple questions….yes or no answer….

    Should people be allowed to vote more than once?
    Should dead people be allowed to vote?
    Should non citizens be allowed to vote?

    I myself say NO

    If you think YES than post your address so that we can vote in your elections and raise your taxes(property,sales,state)…..

  545. http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/more-americans-added-food-stamps-find-jobs_652837.html

  546. way to go Gato….
    you educated yourself…..worked your ass off and were apparently quite successful…….and fully responsible for yourself…..bet you know how to add and make change…..
    I bet you didn’t get to set on your butt in a park and have someone hand you money for the “WORK” you did that day…..
    there’s a phrase about the migrant doing”JOBS THAT WE WON”T DO”…..well guess what…I’m doing them…..could be a college or high school student doing them……
    you probably also took care of your own birth control instead of wanting the GOV. to pay for it…..
    as for being alike ….I don’t know…I myself haven’t run a cash register…….before my wife died she took care of the checkbook,….but I can add and make change…..something a lot of the youngsters today can’t do…..

  547. Gato, I completely agree with you. The average, reasonable person would likely agree that most people need help at some point in their lives and everyone should be willing to give help when they are able to do so. But it is clear from Romney’s statements that he sees those people who take help from the government as moochers and victims and he has no time for them. I can’t imagine the cognitive dissonance that must occur in his mind since his religious beliefs espouse helping those in need.

    In stark contrast, President Obama has worked to make sure that people know that even if they didn’t vote for him and have no intention of voting for him, he is still there president and will do everything in his power to try to represent them. That doesn’t mean he will change his political views, but it does mean he will listen and try to make compromise when and where possible.

    It is the party that Mitt Romney belongs to, the Republicans / Tea Party who has made it clear that they have no desire to listen to the other side, no desire to ever compromise on anything. In fact, their one goal has been to do everything in their power to go against anything this President has asked for, to the detriment of our country.

    Both parties are guilty of propagandizing and pandering. Neither party is blameless in the problems that plague our system or our country. But the Republican strategy sets itself apart in several ways. First as I stated, they will do anything to go against President Obama, even if it hurts the country. They have blocked health care for 911 first responders, blocked equal pay for women, blocked the jobs bill, a bill to help veterans, etc. All because it will hurt President Obama if they don’t pass. But they have no regard for the fact that they are hurting our country.

    Second, they say they want small government, but their actions prove otherwise. They want legislate every woman’s reproductive health care decisions. They want to legislate who we can love and marry and what benefits we can have. They will do everything they can to insinuate themselves into the most private parts of our lives. They go as far as to make laws insisting that women undergo invasive intrauterine sonograms. They pass laws that say doctors can lie to women about their health. But when two people fall in love and want to marry, if they are the same gender, this is a no no for them. Somehow, two men or two women being married will destroy the fabric of heterosexual marriage. By the way, hetero marriage is not in that great shape. The divorce rate is huge, I think near 50%. So that is nothing to brag about. How is any of this legislation small government?

    Third, they keep saying if you cut taxes on the rich it will trickle down to the poor. We’ve been doing that for over 30 years and it still hasn’t worked. They keep talking about this great plan for cutting taxes for the rich but everything I have read shows that middle and lower class taxes will go up while upper class taxes will go down. In the meantime corporations keep getting huge tax breaks, which we pay for by having to pay higher taxes. Or they go overseas, where it is cheaper for them. How does any of this help?

    Fourth, on the subject of corporate tax breaks, do you know how those work? I just learned this. It is unbelievable. The corporations make a deal with the government that goes something like this: Rather than paying the taxes that are taken out of the workers paychecks to the government, they get to keep that. But the workers don’t know; they are not told that their money is not going to the government as they think. Instead it is going to the corporation to “help” them. Then the government matches the withheld funds. IN this way, the amount doesn’t look as large since nobody actually sees the withheld amount and John Q. Public doesn’t know the whole amount. In the mean time, taxes that would have been paid to the government and gone into programs, infrastructure, etc. isn’t. So, either our taxes have to be raised or programs have to be cut to support this corporate welfare Isn’t that lovely?

    Fifth, they are working tirelessly to protect us from voting fraud. Unfortunately, all the data shows a few interesting things. The type of fraud they are focusing on is voter ID for use at the polls. This type of fraud has been found to be so little it is nearly nonexistent. Yet the type of fraud that does exist, fraud is in absentee / mail-in ballots, they are not targeting at all. Why target voter ID, because it keeps mostly people who vote for their opposition (Democrats) from voting. Elderly, poor, students, disabled people who don’t have photo ID and would find it difficult to get one for various reasons. A large majority of these people would vote democratic and the republicans know it. I can’t remember which one, one Republican election official said, on camera, that passing the voter ID law in his state would help make sure that Mitt Romney got elected in November. I have no problem with asking for voter ID. But don’t try to institute it in such a short period before a major election. Let’s work toward improving Voter ID for the next major election cycle, giving people enough time to procure the correct documentation. I’d rather see 10 people vote fraudulently than one person who should be able to vote, not get to vote. I know if I were that one person I would be very, very upset. I heard of a case of an elderly person who had been born in the south over 80 years ago, moved north (to one of those states that very recently passed one of those voter ID laws), is having trouble getting her certificate and is therefore having a really hard time getting picture ID. Why should this person who has voted all her life, not be able to vote? It is a sin! Given more time she could probably work this out.

    Okay, enough of my rant.

  548. UAW, I can’t believe that I’m going to say it, but we agree that there are young people who are slackers and feel “entitled to six figure salaries.”. However, that’s where the agreement ends. Common sense and real life experience tells me it is not poor and middle class kids that feel this sense of entitlement, it’s the children of the well-off. The kids who drive to high school in brand new cars, who can go to whatever college they want because their parents can afford to pay the full tuition. The ones who arrive at college with an unlimited line of credit on their Visa card and never have to look of a work-study job. So, yeah, there are slackers out there, but it’s not usually the poor. My kids always had summer jobs– working at video stores, roofing, selling newspapers at a racetrack etc. I don’t begrudge any kid the opportunity to go to college, even if they need financial help. As usual, your ire is directed at the wrong people.

  549. Hi, Beth – I don’t think anyone is really very different in his or her personal desires than I am. I think we all want to feel we have some ability to care for ourselves and our families, and those we love, and even, for some of us, those we don’t know, and care about anyway. I think we all want to feel that we matter, that somehow we count, and are worthy of some respect.

    In the Universe’s eyes, we all are.

    Sometimes we can give help; sometimes we need help. Doing both of those things is my responsibility, long as I am on this planet.


  550. The issue is that Romney thinks that those who need help from the system to get a leg up are moochers while he uses a different part of the system to avoid paying a fair share of taxes. Because he is rich, he benefits from a system of rules that allows him to pay a lower amount of taxes. But poor people who need help are moochers and victims dependent on the government who don’t deserve his time or consideration. That is the issue. He is a disgusting elitist and snob! Most poor people who are getting governmental help are grateful for it and / but would rather be self sufficient.

    Most of the people getting help are working poor who are already working hard or people who have worked hard and for reasons beyond their control (illness, inability to find work that pays enough to sustain them and their families, etc.), elderly; people who have paid into the system for years already and are now in need of help from that system. But Romney and his ilk don’t believe that. They believe that these people are moochers and victims not worthy of their time and consideration, people who don’t want to work hard and want everything for free. This is just not so. I know from personal experience which I cannot go into in this public forum.

  551. Hi, again, UAW – I’m not quite in the one percent – far from it! I’m probably closer to where you are… And I’m old!

    Did I not make it clear that I worked throughout my college years? My parents paid my tuition for four years at Ohio State, because that was not only what they could manage, but because they made it clear to me that I had some personal responsibility for my life, even at age eighteen. (They groomed me, and my brother, for this, our entire lives.) All my textbooks, supplies, transportation, and so on were my responsibility. So… I worked all four years, part-time, while carrying about forty hours a week of classes. I made egg sandwiches for visiting truck drivers and neighbors in my local drugstore/diner; took fees for music lessons and scheduled classes in my local musical instrument store; racked up books in the college library a couple of hours a day, three or four days a week; worked on the weekends in a local department store. And I’m glad I did!

    And all the time those parents – may they rest in peace, and lord knows I miss them – taught me about taking responsibility for myself. They also taught me that I had an obligation to help those who had less than we had, just as they did. They opened our home to orphans from Italy, visiting as members of a choir that temporarily joined our church; rented out a small apartment attached to our garage (for a very minimal monthly charge) to Mormon missionaries as they did their service; and offered living space in our home to exchange students from Germany, Japan, and Egypt.

    I, too, know how to run a cash register, and open and close a small business, and I handle all the bills for my household. We really do have a lot in common. Isn’t that something…?


  552. well sidney…..
    I’m just wondering how many Dems were among the 30,000 given amnesty….

  553. speaking of bull$#!t mountain….


  554. HI Gato….I didn’t know you were a 1%er…….and yes I am male……didn’t know that I had to state that after mentioning having a girlfriend……as this is a liberal site I guess I should have…..and it’s nice to “see” someone actually admit that Dems also gain by today’s tax laws(think Charles Rangel)……
    Gato…wouldn’t it be nice if people actually had to work to earn a living or to go to college……you seem to forget about the “Occupy events” ….free loans and no interest and just have the “FEDERAL GOV” PAY OFF THE BILLS……
    I worked a lot of OT to put my children thru college but they both know how to run a cash register and say”would you like fries with that”…..I’m pissed about the people that want the 6 figure incomes and feel that they deserve them even if they can’t read a book….come on kids…put a little effort into it…… Mamma’s not going to keep holding your hand and telling you just how “precious” you are……….even if the GOV is telling you that…..GROW UP…..

  555. well Gato…as far as an ID to vote ….Some of the republicans have said,to give them an ID….FREE……can’t cost much more than a SNAP card to issue…..





  556. You know what they say about 1984, doncha? Democrats regard it as a grim warning, Repubs regard it as an operators manual! Keep trying, you have far more patience than I do! Maybe 20 more years will rub some of my corners off!

  557. Hi, Sidney – Oh, don’t we WISH we could see some of those!


  558. Hi, Terri – yet again this afternoon! Yes, that’s what I’m saying. You got it right. Who benefits from an uneducated population? Those who want to take over. For lord’s sake, don’t do anything to help the people get smart. The less informed the people are, the more receptive they will be to our messages. We will tell the people what they need to know and believe…

    Krikeys! Think I’m channeling George Orwell!


  559. Actually the justice department offered amnesty to over 30,000 citizens who had Swiss bank accounts and were caught for not paying taxes. Most of the 30,000 took the government up on the amnesty offer instead of facing jail time. If Romney was one of those caught it would be on his 2009 tax returns.

  560. Hi, Seghull – What I’m trying to say (evidently not very well!) is that while we are all fussing about tax returns and birth certificates (and who paid what for some tee shirt), we might be missing the bigger picture. And that picture is that a whole lot of people, who are citizens of this country, are possibly being denied their opportunity – their RIGHT – to vote, by new regulations that require photo IDs, and so on – a “remedy” for a problem that doesn’t actually exist, far as I know.

    The two issues are only related in that one is a distraction from the other… And the the latter is, in my opinion, the more important thing.


  561. continue to tell it like it is. where or where are we headed with a jackass like that if he is elected

  562. “The issue is not really showing tax returns; it’s disenfranchising voters. Is voting a privilege…? No; it is a right. It is the foundation of any democracy. Without that right, there can be no democracy, anywhere, ever. Period.”Gato

    How did we jump from revealing tax returns to disenfranchising voters? That’s an entirely different issue!

  563. Seghull, please stop that “I’m self-sufficient, why can’t everyone else be” crap. Those of us who can pay for our kids’ education do so happily; but it’s not easy. But not everyone is lucky enough to be able to pay for their children’s college. Does that mean their children shouldn’t have the opportunity to get a good education? I think Gato means that in those cases it would be good to have a government that allows for low-cost college loans and grants; something the GOP does not support. After all, we all benefit from having a well-educated population. It’s the concept of community and doing things for the mutual good of all that some people seem to have such a hard time with.

  564. Jon Stewart nails it!!!


    PEACE ~ Δ

  565. Hey, Seghull… Excellent point; thanks for that. Think the only thing we might be reminded of, from seeing those tax returns, is how skewed the system is, and who gets what advantages, and how. I suspect that Romney did nothing illegal; the only issue might be whether he short-changed his Church on his tithing. But even that is not really my business… That is his.

    The issue is not really showing tax returns; it’s disenfranchising voters. Is voting a privilege…? No; it is a right. It is the foundation of any democracy. Without that right, there can be no democracy, anywhere, ever. Period.


  566. “Wouldn’t it be great if our government actually cared about our kids, and our grandkids, the way you evidently do, and were willing to invest in them?”

    What a strange thing to say. I want to be able to invest in in my own kids and grandkids, not have the need for the government to do it. I don’t want to teach my kids to look to the government to meet their needs. Therein lies the difference, I think.

  567. “If the whole game is fixed so that the people with the biggest bucks get the biggest advantages, THAT is the enemy… Not the individuals who either gain, or lose, by those rules.” Gato

    So, since the real enemy is the rules, and we know what the rules are, why do we care if we see Romney’s tax returns? He is just one of that crowd of people who “either gain or lose, by those rules.” ???

  568. Some around here might have a hard time
    understanding this (yoU alreAdy knoW who).

    Candidates say the darnedest things:

    [If the tax on capital gains is 0%] “Well under that plan,
    I’d have paid NO [income] taxes in the last two years”

    Mitt is one of the 47% he disdains. Must be tough.

    PEACE ~ Δ

  569. Hi, Terri – Oh, I’d forgotten about all that stuff… Thanks for the reminder. As a wise woman once told me… “The key to happiness is a bad memory…”

    I don’t have any kids myself – and the one granddaughter I have, thanks to the generative abilities of my current husband, is already wealthy enough, at age eleven, to never have to worry about college, or anything else in her life, for that matter. (I continue to hope that, at some time in her future, she will actually meet a black kid, or a poor kid…) But I have friends, much like you, I think, who are looking at $25,000 to $40,000 a year, each, to help their kids get an education that will supposedly allow them to get a job that can provide for their families, when they have them. The numbers are staggering. I don’t know how you do it.

    Wouldn’t it be great if our government actually cared about our kids, and our grandkids, the way you evidently do, and were willing to invest in them? I suspect even UAW would agree with us on that.

    Were I given the choice between a $900 tee shirt, and one for $4.50 from Hanes, I would buy the Hanes, and give the other $895.50 to some micro-financing group, or to my local food bank, or somewhere where it could do some good, rather than making myself look like a person wearing a bird shirt… But maybe I’ve forgotten to care about clothing, other than keeping myself warm, or cool, as the seasons dictate.

    I am deeply grateful to Margaret, Helen, and Matthew for what they are doing here, and for giving us a forum. How can we get this out to others…?


  570. Hey Gato,
    I think we’ve heard enough about UAW’s viagara and male parts to know he’s a guy! And I have absolutely no doubt he’s worked hard all his life (as have I, and I’m still working full-time to pay off my two sons’ college educations). I wish UAW would specify who, exactly, is “demanding more for free.” I can tell you from first hand experience, college students are not getting anything for free.

  571. Hi, Terri, and Bo – I enjoy your posts, too, and many, many of the others here. (Thank you, Margaret, Helen, and Matthew!) And I kind of agree with you about trying to “reach” UAW… It may be pointless…

    BUT, at the same time, my heart evidently keeps going out to him (her?)… The posts seem so full of sad resignation, and frustrated anger – and all the while, UAW is trying his/her best to keep a decent life going for him or herself. (I’m going to stop with the him/her stuff now; I think he’s a guy, until I am informed otherwise…)

    What really pisses me off is that the plutocrats seem perfectly content to just write off people like UAW (and many of the rest of us) as not worthy of their consideration or concern – the very people who embody the best of this country, and of all of humanity: hard-working; trying to hang in there in a game whose rules are none of their doing, and which favor them less and less; scrabbling along as things get more and more difficult, more and more inequitable; and wondering why nobody running things seems to give a shit about them or their concerns. Breaks my heart.

    We all need to feel that we have some dignity; that we, at least, have a chance at a decent life; that we will be heard; that we matter, while we’re here on this planet.

    The Universe compels me to let others know that I’ve heard them, and to speak, myself. That’s why I keep posting – and my guess is that you feel the same way… Keep up the great work! I look forward to hearing from you…


  572. I love that new word, Bo. I think I’m going to “Romney” everything that is beneath me or that I don’t care to acknowledge in any way. Like that mouse dead the mousetrap in the garage, like the ex-boyfriend who left me for another woman yet keeps calling, like everyone who has ever betrayed me. Unlike Romney, however, I will only Romney those I cannot help or be a service to.

  573. Hi, UAW – Happy picking; it IS that time of year, here in New England, too.

    Let me just reiterate something, one more time: I have never said I’m “mad” about what any of the people you mention have paid, or have not paid, in income taxes. I DON’T KNOW WHAT ANY OF THEM PAID, AND NEITHER DO YOU!!! THAT’S THE WHOLE POINT! (If I could use a larger font, or underline, or bold face, those two sentences, I surely would…)

    I DO know very well what I have paid in Federal and State taxes for the last thirty or forty years, and I can assure you that, in my experience, the better I was doing, the smaller my “adjusted gross income” was, and the less income taxes I paid. And the very best “deals” I got were when I was incorporated. (Yes; I fess up. For several years, I was a “person” who was also a “corporation”.)

    As a “corporation”, had “I” gone bankrupt, none of my personal assets could have been touched to pay off my debts. I had a gazillion loopholes and “business expenses”; I was also able to weasel around with my “fiscal year”, adjusted to my former husband’s “fiscal year”, so that our combined “annual personal incomes” could be minimized, so we paid less in personal income taxes. And, of course, it was all perfectly legal. Was it “fair”? Of course it wasn’t, not in any moral sense. But those are the rules. The “rules” are what’s not fair.

    Interestingly enough, this all came back to bite me when I, as a newly-divorced “person”, tried to get a mortgage on my own. When the banks looked at my personal income over the previous years, it had been made so “minimal” that I, personally, was deemed unqualified. The banks didn’t give a hoot that my corporate “self” had earned a happy five-figure income for more than ten years; my personal “self” was apparently a pauper, as far as they were concerned. (It finally worked out, I’m pleased to say, thanks to a very determined and “creative” mortgage broker.)

    As I think I keep saying, it’s important to keep in mind who and/or what is the real enemy here. If the whole game is fixed so that the people with the biggest bucks get the biggest advantages, THAT is the enemy… Not the individuals who either gain, or lose, by those rules.


  574. and Bo….
    I also eat tuna fish…..cut up some onion…..add mayo….a little salt and pepper……spread on bread or crackers…..HMMMM……GOOD…….

  575. Jeez Terri…
    I said I was picking produce….pumpkins this week….
    and YES I’m stealing a job that some college student could be doing instead of them demanding more for free…..

  576. Terri and Gato –
    I think it’s time to “Romney” good ole UAW. Can’t “worry” about him. He has made himself a “victim” and enjoys wallowing in his resentment and indignation.
    Really. I mean it.

  577. Hi Gato,
    You gave it your most eloquent best, but of course UAW couldn’t respond to any actual points you made; or even answer any of your questions. And they are good ones, I might add. As I’ve said before, he’s unreachable. He is emblematic of a certain type of GOP voter. The GOP has deliberately fostered hatred and resentment of immigrants, welfare recipients, and others whom they perceive as gaming the system. And voters like UAW buy into this deliberate distraction instead of really looking at what’s going on. GE pays no taxes, Exxon gets billions in subsidies, Halliburton makes a fortune overcharging the US government, Mitt hides lots of money overseas; but they don’t see it because they are too busy resenting the Mexican standing in front of Home Depot looking for work. This strategy has worked for the GOP for years; and will continue as long as blue collar, working class people vote against their own economic self interest.

    P.S.–I enjoy reading your posts.

  578. BREAKING…..

    “The $105,000 champagne tower featured at Obama fundraiser hosted by Jay-Z and Beyonce”

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2205541/280-000-champagne-tower-Obama-fundraiser-Jay-Z-Beyonce-Manhattan-night-club.html#ixzz270uxuCuQ
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

  579. well Gato…
    .I’m “stealing” a job the same way Mitt is not paying his “fair share”……just words to help describe ones feelings….
    the same way your mad that Mitt doesn’t pay his “fair share’ but apparently you have no problems with Clinton,Kerry, Sorros, Buffet, the Kennedy’s, Pelosi, or Reid following the same tax laws……..I wish they would ALSO pay their “fair share”….

    and I’m out picking produce now……you know….”squat labor”….

    and from what I’ve found out Mitt was wrong with his “47% pay NO(INCOME) TAX”….it’s 46%

  580. Mitt Romney, a spiritual refugee from the court of King Louis XVI. And you know what happened to him! No surprise here.

  581. Bonus track:




    PEACE ~ Δ

    *PS: Joe…FTW

  582. Rmoney’s presidential campaign in :28 seconds!

    Definitely an inside job. ;)

    PEACE ~ Δ

  583. Hi, UAW… May I ask what job is it that you’ve gotten, if you don’t mind sharing? I’m sure it’s something that you’re good at doing. And why do you feel you’re “stealing” it from someone else?


  584. Palin or Biden? Seriously? Joe Biden is hands down, without hesitation a superior choice. It is such a silly stretch to compare these two individuals!

  585. Oh, gosh, Whirled… I know your link is satire… But it’s so close to the truth, isn’t it? Have you ever paid $50,000 to have dinner with anyone? FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS…?!? I certainly haven’t. I could feed my entire county with that amount of money, probably for more than a week… Maybe longer…

    Even if I gave a high-end caterer $50,000, he/she could do fantastic things, for a whole lot of people…

    I went with a good GF today to a very upscale mall in my home county in CT. We were looking around Nordstrom’s, and there were some nice lacy dresses there… And the price tag on each was more than $300.00… Several, in many sizes, with the tags just hanging off them… As if spending three hundred dollars for a dress were nothing… We were both kind of dumbfounded.

    I am incredibly fortunate… I could “afford” to buy one of those dresses, and I wouldn’t, because it seems obscene to me. Instead, I went to Kohl’s, used my 30% discount coupon, got a couple of warm winter things, and sent a couple of contributions to Obama/Biden 2012.

    Maybe I’ll finally get to have dinner with Barack. That would be nice. But what matters to me is sharing my bounty with others. There will always be enough for me. In my sixty-eight years on this planet, this has always been the case. I’ve received much; my job is just to pass it on.


  586. BREAKING:

    Romney Apologizes To Nation’s
    150 Million ‘Starving, Filthy Beggars’.

    “First and foremost, I would like to offer a heartfelt apology to all the whores, junkies, bums, and grime-covered derelicts out there who make up nearly half our nation,” a visibly contrite and solemn Romney said outside a campaign stop at a local high school. “Let me assure you that I in no way meant to offend any of the putrid-smelling, barefoot masses out there. My campaign is not about dividing this nation, but about bringing all sides together—the rich, elegant members of the upper class, as well as the 47 percent who are covered in flies and eat directly from back-alley dumpsters. I am fully committed to building a better future for every American,” Romney continued, “and that means ensuring all 150 million grease-and-urine-soaked members of our society get a fair shake.” ;)

    PEACE ~ Δ

  587. same question Gato….Give me some documentation that Mitt has “cheated” on his taxes…..and I never said “fair share”…..I said the same tax laws as others……complain about the law…not about who follows the law…..
    .and “YES” I feel I can complain about those who haven’t done a thing except “want for free”…..
    as far as “MAMMA GRISLY”…….. who was the better choice…..Palin or Biden…..that would be a toss-up……

  588. Okey, dokey, UAW… So there are a lot of tax returns we haven’t seen from a lot of pols… I do think that if any of these people were running for President, we all – including you – would want to see their Federal and State income tax returns… Just for the heck of it. That’s something I think we have in common. The fact that someone is running for President DOES, dammit, make a difference. You know that; just stop blathering.

    You still have not backed up your statement, with any substantiation, about why you are “sure” that Romney has paid his fair share of income taxes. Want to give us some documentation for your position…? Please do.

    Romney asked for more information from Ryan than he, himself, is willing to give us… And Romney gave more information to McCain when he was hoping to be selected as the VP…

    And McCain (god bless that good public servant and war vet), chose Sarah Palin over Romney as his running mate, evidently based on the information he received. McCain apparently thought the Mama Grizzly was a better choice. Go figure…

    Address these issues with some good sense, please.I mean it. Really.

    These people, in whom you so believe, are sucking the life blood out of you, and you are letting them do it. I am sure you have worked hard all your life, and just hate those M****kers who now seem to be taking stuff from you, and giving it away to slackers, and moochers.

    The designated slackers and moochers are not your enemy; WE are not your enemy; the plutocrats are the enemy of both of us. They will throw you, and all the rest of us, under any bus without even a blink. You don’t matter; I don’t matter. They are the ones who feel entitled. They don’t wish either you or me well… It doesn’t feel good to be written off as inconsequential… I’m with you on that.


  589. and Gato…..I was out stealing a job that illegal immigrants usually do…..

  590. to continue on GATO…. I don’t have a problem with helping the retired people who have paid in all their lives….I don’t have a problem helping people that are not able to work because of disabilities…..I have a problem with the people that say “I owe them”…..”F#@!em”…go out and take some job from an illegal alien…..

  591. Even Karl Rove is advising Rmoney to be careful…

  592. well Gato… I don’t know if Debbie Wasserman Schulz has paid her taxes either because I haven’t seen her returns…..I haven’t seen Nancy Pelosi’s or Harry Reid’s , or Bill and Hillery’s either….OH THAT”S RIGHT….their not running for president….but they use the same tax laws!!!!!!!

  593. Mike and I will be voting for President Obama. I think Alice will be voting for him as well. Can’t say for certain who Sam the butcher will be voting for.

  594. HTG, UAW – I really cannot imagine on what basis you feel confident in saying that Romney “always paid all his taxes” – unless you are the only person in the US of A who has seen more than one of his tax returns for the last ten years. Let’s assume (just for the hell of it) that you are correct. Even so, I am sure that, with your knowledge of our tax system, you understand that the wealthier one is, the more one benefits from the skewed exemptions, loopholes, and so on.

    And, when you hear the story of someone who has worked hard all his/her life, has, at age 70, come to rely on some receiving some of the benefits into which he/she has paid for decades, who suffers from some serious medical issues, and continues to try to find work ANYWAY, you might take just a moment, prior to your repetitive ranting, to offer that poster at least some shred of human empathy. Please… I mean it. Really.


  595. Let em have it Blue! Let the gloves come off!

  596. yeah-47% of my friends and family are dependant on the government. They are government employees or retirees receiving medicare, social security, government pensions or paychecks; a couple are students getting financial aid. None of them consider themselves victims. They feel priviledged that they are/were able to work hard, proud to pay taxes, and contribute to society–you know, the society that takes care of others.

    I truly feel sorry for Romney and his crowd. They show a definate lack of compassion and humanity and overwhelming sense of importance and greed.

  597. Helen, you are spot on once again. Not only does poor Mitten have to worry about the tuna and ironing board people, but now he is lamenting the fact that he is not hispanic because THAT would undoubtedly make him win the election. Such racists these Teabagging Repubs. There used to be Republicans out there who had some class……….and who worked toward the common good. No longer.

    Yet another fool just jumped out of the clown car……Mr Good Hair, The Donald. He and Eastwood need to find their own planet. None of the Teabagging Repubs think their supporters can read or have an independent thought………….hum ?? Perhaps so.

    uawtradesman……you and the rest of your bitter Repubs are pathetic. Blame your Repub congress people whose only goal these last 4 years has been to disrupt this presidency. They don’t care about you. It is congress who pass the laws and the Repub controlled House has done nothing but refuse to bring legislation to the floor that might help the economy or the American people. If a bill does get to the floor and is passed along to the Senate, the Repubs there filabuster, so…………you do the math.

    It took Bush 8 years to make the mess and repercussions from his presidency will be with us for decades. The last Repub pres to balance a budget was Dwight D. Eisenhower in 1956…………again,do the math: That was 56 years ago. Since Reagan their mantra has been, spend, spend, spend and when we lose the election blame the Democrats. Bush had a totally balanced budget plus a surplus given to him by a DEMOCRATIC President and he spent that and more in the first months of his presidency. He created two wars with no way to pay for them as well as the rest of the financial disaster he visited on the American people, so try reading for information instead of relying on the vicious lies of Limbaugh and Faux news and the idiot, Romney. My guess is that all of you ignorant people are benefitting from the things that this President has been able to do and you are just too informationally challenged to understand. Romney is not going to help any of you unless you have a billion dollars in off shore accounts like he does. His arrogance is unbelievable. Get a clue !!!!!! All the Repubs do is laugh at their idiot supporters whom they plan to screw.

  598. It seems that the ‘job-creators’ with the
    ‘we built that’ small business’ are the
    real 47% who support Obama.

    Who knew? I think Willard is a bit confused.

    PEACE ~ Δ

  599. On a lighter note, maybe it’s time for a
    different kind of Chic-fil-A Appreciation Day.

    I guess catering to the GOTP bigot-brigade isn’t as profitable a business model as they thought it would be.

    Turns out greed is not only good, it can be counted on.

    I love the free market capitalist system.

    God bless the United Corporations of America. ;)

    PEACE ~ Δ

  600. Re Mitt and the tape. It’s pretty amazing to listen to a guy who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth complaining that the poor seem to have it so good, and revealing how he resents their sense of entitlement. Take a look in the mirror Mitt, if you want to see someone who feels entitled. He dares to criticize people for not paying income tax when he has used every loophole in the book to avoid doing the same? We got a real glimpse into the real Mitt Romney and it’s not a pretty sight. The disdain and contempt he has for 47% of the people in this country reveals a selfish, out of touch plutocrat.

  601. Ya think American Borat might wanna to go back to talking about his Libya comments?

    Or even his <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kut9MuIhDcA&quot;tax returns?

    PEACE ~ Δ

  602. If one is born into a successful wealthy family with name recognition it easily opens many doors and offers “lucky” breaks or perhaps even marries well. One is groomed to succeed. One would have to be a complete idiot not to be successful and even then someone may cover his failures out of a favor owed or to protect their own investment or reputation. McCain and Bush for instance. And yes you can say they worked for it but they did not do it ALL on their own.

    If one is born into a poor or average income family those doors are not so easily opened and the lucky breaks are much harder to find. One must work much harder to over come the lack of advantages, “supporters” or networking that the one born into a wealthy family has. There are those who do very well for themselves in spite of the odds and they deserve to be admired and respected for their accomplishment. And there are some who through no fault of their own or beyond their control are unable to reach the success they hoped for.

    Too many of these so called multimillionaires or billionaires did not do it all on their own. It is easier to build on something then it is to start from scratch. So why do they think they are so special?


  603. http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/qxhq22/


  604. funny Bo….typical but funny…..

  605. Another winner M&H. Keep ‘em comin’.

    As far as MittWitt’s campaign goes…
    …things are starting to look a bit messed up for Rmoney.

    *Everything is everything!

    PEACE ~ Δ

  606. No, UAW. I think we all have a pretty accurate idea of your “dick length” so spare us the details. You’re a dick from head to toe. ‘Nuff said!

  607. well Sarg in charge….typical liberal statement…..
    “How old were you when you first started hating black people’
    what’s next….my dick length??????

  608. Majeral ….WTH……
    “President Obama had the republican congress and senate blocking him all the way.”
    I seem to remember Nancy Pelosi(D) running the House for 4 years (2 spent blocking Bush), and Harry Reid(D) still running the Senate…..where do you come-up with “republican congress”…..
    and Clinton had Newt helping him…….
    You can’t change history……
    and what do you mean “paid ALL my taxes”…….are you repeating the lies that Mitt cheated……according to some here not paying “your fair share” is cheating but I’ve always said that Romney follows the same tax laws as George Sorros, Warren Buffet, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Bill Clinton, and everyone else…..
    What I want to know is if getting back more than you pay in is “not paying your fair share”(cheating)….

  609. I think this explains Romney’s attitude toward the 47%:

    “It’s all based upon this idea that ‘poor people deserve to be poor because they don’t work hard enough and I deserve the money that I make because I do work hard,’” Taibbi said. “It’s just a pervasive belief … the psychological underpinning of almost everything they do. If they didn’t have this way to excuse their dismissal of the poor, then they wouldn’t be able to do a lot of the things that they do.”



  610. uawtradesman, you must have missed President Clinton’s speech even he said he could not have turned this economy around in 4 years. And he did a great job while he was in office. President Obama had the republican congress and senate blocking him all the way. What we need in this country are people who go into office thinking of us the voters the people who pay their salary’s working for us not their own agenda . We need to let our senators and congress people know we will not be held hostage by them and their money hungry ways.
    I would sure love to live in Mitts world for a while or even better have him live in mine. 70 years old, RA, herniated discs, I looked for work for 5 years after being laid off. People are not hiring 70 year old any more and greeter at walmart is not a good job for someone with RA Yep MItt I get Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps and Sec 8 housing, I drive a 12 year old car I keep maintained I don’t buy clothes when ever the whim strikes me, or go to movies eat out ect ect etc. I do not have cable , cell phone. NO I don’t feel bad about any of that I worked since I was 16 and paid ALL my taxes did not cheat the government. I did marry a man who thought he was the next Trump and wasted all our money. I left and did ok till my body said opps no more for you. Oh Mitt I know atheist who are more christian than you will ever be.

  611. Lets not forget, all of the small Mom & Pop stationary stores that got bull dozed over by Staples. All of those middle class, hard working Americans that no longer own the business that they worked hard for because Staples chewed them up and spit them out. Part of the 47% I assume.

  612. Seghull, WHY are you a conservative Republican? You seem to be rational and thoughtful in your responses, but can’t you see that 30 years of Reagonomics and “trickle down” theory has created this mess? Add Grover Norquist’s fatal allergy to taxes into the mix plus a little gratuitous warmongering (on credit, of course) and here we are! How could you possibly want to have any more of this? I can tell you I surely don’t!

  613. Poor Mittens. I have noticed that he is getting smaller and smaller every day. By the time the first debate rolls around, he’s going to need a stepladder to reach the podium.

  614. Good one UAW. Just like Fox News taught you. If you don’t like the subject at hand, change it and hope everyone else follows you away from the facts. Blah.. Blah… Blah. How old were you when you first started hating black people?

  615. Oh, that is sad Robert. You need to remember that Sarah Palin was considered a better candidate for VP that Mitt according to the choice that John McCain made.

    As to tuna and an Ironing board. I remember those days. It was a White Gravy with Tuna and Peas on Toast. We would sell Milk and Eggs so we could afford to buy Bread. Then again, that was back in the 1950s when the Republican Party actually cared about people and kept big business at bay.

    My how things have changed.

  616. It doesn’t preclude eating less meat and fish.

    We COULD shoot 6 deer and catch and process a huge amount of fish and eat those things twice a day. Instead, we choose to obtain just enough to eat a small serving of meat or fish one day a week. One deer and a few salmon. That’s it. If we lived in town and bought it, we would still stick to the once a week thing for the sake of health.

    I don’t know what happened to us! We are gun totin’ Christian, conservative Republicans, for crying out loud!! We used to fish commercially and eat fish three times a day when out in the Gulf of Alaska fishing. I guess we are getting old. Lol!

    And, Anon, it IS nice to be in Alaska where the air is clean, and we catch rain from the roof and run it into a big tank. No flouride. No chlorine. No minerals.

    I grew up in Minneapolis and Chicago, and I like to visit, but I much prefer the Alaska bush.

    And, by the way, back to the subject at hand, Romney’s statement about the 47% who want to live off the system, I guess that would also include all the Alaskans who live on social security and subsistance hunting and fishing. That includes, also, many Alaska Native people. Not a good move, Mr. R.

  617. Must be nice up there in the wild, but my urban setting precludes shooting things and the varmints available probably aren’t safe anyway, but thanks for the suggestion!

  618. Just wondering who Obama(and the other Dems) will blame the next four years on if he wins the election…….after so long it can’t be Bush’s fault……

  619. We shoot and catch our own protein. You don’t wanna be eating what’s in the store bought stuff anyway. We eat animal once a week or less. It does help to live in Alaska, but cutting down on the proteins is a healthy thing to do in any case.

  620. Let’s hope Willard rMoney and Pall rAyn get exactly what they deserve from the electorate: NOTHING. Let the vulture slither off into anonymity, and the vulture lose his government paycheck and healthcare, and find a job. Maybe he can drive the Oscar Meyer Weinermobile again.

  621. Thank you so much for your blog. In this day and age of Fox News and the Internet, being able to debate with some Republicans is an exercise in futility. I come here to find sanity, intelligence, a few smiles and a couple of laughs. Your comments are so right on that many politicians should use your blog as required reading. Thanks so much for being here!

  622. Excuse me, but has anyone noticed the price of tuna lately? There are weeks when I have to even pass that up unless it’s on sale. As always…. a great post.

  623. Okay, I may have posted prematurely! I love your analyses, Helen, and Margaret, I miss you when you don’t comment. Two things that I especially love about your writings are the deep Christian grounding and the fact that you are still passionate about issues of choice and autonomy for women. It would be easy to stop caring because these issues are no longer as personal for us (I am 67 and understand they are still may be personal because of daughters and granddaughters) but we don’t need to worry about an unwanted pregnancy, etc. Keep on keepin’ on!

  624. I love your blog, but got turned off commenting because of the nastiness of commenters. As always, today’s post was spot on.

  625. Tuna? You know people who can still afford proteins? Ahhhhh, those were the days. Might as well call the spade digging our grave just what it is: the R-Money Campaign of Disdain … my gop ancestors may very well not just roll, but rise from their not so restful places and make those caution: zombies ahead road signs no joke at all.

  626. thanks Helen…. so well spoken.

  627. Love this. What an insightful message!

  628. I think it’s Romney and the rest of the 1% who feel like they’re “entitled” — to the presidency, to tax exemptions, to exemptions from the laws that everyone else has to follow… . I’ll bet not a single person at that fund-raiser got where they are today without some type of government assistance (grants, loans, contracts, etc.). They are the parasites, feeding off everyday, hard-working Americans and third-world citizens who slave in their sweatshops.

  629. I’ve always thought that Mitt Romney was an arrogant phony; now we have the proof.

    There’s no way we can give this pompous blowhard, who knows nothing of foreign affairs (ugh!), the reins of our struggling country.

  630. Here’s my commercial:

    Want more POVERTY?
    Want more POLLUTION?
    Want more PREJUDICE?
    Want more PLUNDER?
    Want more unwanted PREGNANCY?

    Vote for the goP!!

    I appreciate the thoughtfulness of this blog.


  631. There’s a famous quote by Maya Angelou……..it goes like this……..
    “If someone shows you who they really are, believe them”.
    It really applies to R and R!

  632. Sweetheart, don’t believe everything that you read on the interwebs. Out of 400 employees he provided insurance for 30. I am a business owner and obamacare provides many money saving options. Unless, of course, you believe as the republicans do “don’t get sick, and if you do….die quickly”.

  633. It’s becoming more and more apparent that Romney just doesn’t have a clue!

  634. Staples was a success for Romney and a few other big shots. As Helen pointed out it was not a success for most of the employees. It was also not a success for America.

    Before Staples, people still bought office supplies. Many bought them from small Mom-and-Pop stores that supported an entrepreneur or two, as well as a few workers who, unlike Staples employees, did earn a living wage. When Staples came along many of these small businesses went out of businesses, and many of those they employed, as well as some of the entrepreneurs, became part of the 47%.

  635. And, speaking of low paying jobs, a bunch of them are soon going to disappear — and not in a good way. I wonder if this will happen at Staples as well.


  636. Romney’s contention that the existence of Staples has created jobs is bogus, as he well knows, given that MBA. Staples has at least oligopolistic if not monopolistic control of the office supplies retail market in America. Basic Econ 101: that means fewer jobs, not more. Think of all the small mom and pop office supply stores and the small chains that went under due to Staples. Staples didn’t create a new market, it just took over an old one.

  637. Right on, sistah!

  638. I wish I could write and talk about this stuff as well as you do. I have so much to say, I’m just not good at saying it.

  639. Spot on again! People like Romney don’t seem to get it that when the workers get paid less money and fewer if any benefits, then they end up qualifying for various assistance programs. The saddest part is the management are getting even higher salaries, benefits and those golden parachutes- even when they fail. Romney’s comments are about many of those who are working poor but he and those like him fail to recognize and appreciate that those people on the bottom rungs are the people who make it possible for those at the top to have that successful business, because without them sweating it out at the bottom they wouldn’t be providing that item or those services to the buying public. They don’t respect the people that do that hard work for their poor wages. They don’t respect or have compassion for 47% of the American people. They are wrong in their comments and the Romney/Ryan ticket is wrong for America.

  640. Ladies, I only recently found your blog…my sister sent a link to it! I have been searching all this time to find a really good replacement for Ann Richards and Molly Ivins and finally!!!! This is me doing a happy dance for Margaret and Helen!!!. I read your posts way back and can’t believe what I missed. Someone from Texas too, yea! You gave me a name for Mittens and will know of whom I speak when I mention The Shrub and Rick, Pretty Boy, Perry. Pretty Boy was annointed by The Shrub to take over when The Shrub managed to get himself elected.

  641. Thanks Helen! Only you know how to put perspective on things in such a manner. Your post is so spot on. Are you not afraid of being labeled a communist? Yes, CEO of Staples 9 million, workers, pitance. They should be happy they have a job right? Wow, we humans sure have lost our way.

  642. I’ve found a new favorite blogger! Thank you for your wise words.

  643. Low-wage employees of Staples might “believe” in birth control, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they can “afford” birth control. But don’t leave it up to Romney or Ryan to cover it! Because that ain’t gonna happen!!!

  644. Spot on as usual. I’ve always presumed that food, health and shelter was a fundmental human right. Apparently Romney presumes it’s a privelege.

  645. I am a conservative Republican, and I agree with every word of this post! I have been saying for a long time that they have been insulting a lot of people by throwing around that 47% figure. Even my own husband had to be enlightened on this! When we were commercial fishing folks in Alaska, we had so many deductions, we didn’t pay taxes. Does that mean we didn’t work hard? Of course NOT!! We worked our a**es off! (unfortunately, they grew back :-))

    And, there are many, many people out there working hard, who get all their withheld taxes back in April, because they have deductions.

    The government invented those deductions, for crying out loud! And, the government got to use that money while they had it.

    It is a big mistake for Romney to tout that statistic.

  646. Thanks for expressing it so well. Romney, too, expressed his thoughts so well that I can hardly believe the truth fell out of his mouth. He does NOT care about any of us. How dare him!

  647. I wish I had said all that so well…

  648. In 2008, I declared Romney would win the nomination and the election, because of his money, unless he made an elephant’s ass of himself.
    In 2012, I declared Romney would win the nomination and the election, because of his money, and he had learned from 2008 not to make an elephant’s ass of himself.

    Here’s hoping his campaign tactics work again!

  649. Re: “… who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing…”
    I believe everyone is. Otherwise, what are we?

  650. 73% of Americans don’t HAVE ironing boards.
    (The above is a scientific guesstimate.)

  651. Some of the most intelligent stuff I have read this election year. Love to you both!

  652. You hit the nail on the head, once again. Thank you for your great analysis.

  653. God Bless you and Keep you!

  654. Amen, Helen. I hope this idiot’s campaign is now effectively over. He was, to paraphrase Ann Richards, born with a platinum foot in his mouth. I will definitely be voting for that other guy (not that I had ever planned to vote for Mittens).

  655. My company — a small one, I grant — was a Staples customer back in 1988. (My assistant drove 25 miles because there was no store in our city.) There are other sources now. It’s a good thing because, retired person that I am, I can’t afford a car.)

    There is something inherently wrong with a company that can pay its investors a sevenfold return and can’t pay its employees a living wage. (One retired gentleman I see there is also working for Sam’s Club; I guess it takes two crap jobs to build a decent income.)

  656. With each new gaffe I wonder more and more if Romney might really be a Democrat disguised as a Republican, doing his utmost to make sure President Obama is re-elected.

  657. Just wonderful. This should be required reading for all Republicans.

  658. After working for decades my husband and I cannot wait until we retire and join the 47%. We will collect our Social Security and take advantage of Medicare benefits. Unless we get HUGE raises and join the Middle Class earning $250,000 a year…

  659. I’m so glad we have you, Margaret, to do the research, then to speak intelligently about the issues. It is so obvious, when Mitt says it isn’t his job to worry about that poor 47%, that he is selfish, uncaring, and stupid.

  660. The things people say behind closed doors usually reveal the truth about who they really are. Mitt is an asshole. A very rich asshole. But still an asshole.

  661. Romney lacks any compassion whatsoever for anyone who makes less than about $250K per year. His words AND his actions speak loud and clear. His wifey is no better — talk about being out of touch!

    Thank you, Margaret, for hitting yet another home run in the ballpark of truth in politics.

  662. I will be voting for the other guy, you betcha.

  663. And FURTHERMORE… Do we hear one single murmur of disapproval about anything the Romneybot was saying, from the assembled group? No – not one single word. They were lapping it up…



  664. Don’t you think Lenore & George Romney, both liberal Republicans & people of strong convictions, would be horrified at how their son turned out…

  665. Margaret and Helen has a new one

  666. What really floors me about his statement actually doesn’t occur until the middle. “They think they are entitled to food, healthcare and housing…” Is he kidding me? A part of me really wishes that Romney is just pandering to the wealthy who truly believe the poor are at the root of all of this country’s economic woes. I want to believe that this man does not so sufficiently lack basic compassion (and common sense) to propose that the right to food, clothing and healthcare ARE NOT “entitlements” for every human being. Did he actually include FOOD as an “entitlement?” Dude, do you truly believe in your heart that only people who can afford it should EAT?? So, if you only work part-time or don’t have the “work ethic” to get a better job, you shouldn’t even get a second-rate meal? Or…better yet…you shouldn’t even be entitled to sleep indoors? I just can’t believe someone seeking to lead a nation truly believes this??!!

  667. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, once again, you’ve done it! Found the map showing the states with population paying the least or no taxes at all and they are in Republand! Knew Mittens parents. Cannot figure out how they whelped such a tin eared kid! As for entitlement and automatically depending on the government for my life, h e double hockey sticks, people! I worked like a team of dogs for my Medicare and Social Security. That is my money coming back to me. Even my cancer stricken unemployed husband feels tht way. Amazing! Mittens is capable of giving himself the raspberry!

  668. I love you ladies even if you are part of the 47% of the population that are mooching off the wealthy. Snark.

  669. Helen, as always, you speak the truth. It makes me wonder how many of the 47% Romney himself put in the position of needing housing and food stamps and assistance with medical issues.

  670. Oh, Helen, you are a NATIONAL TREASURE!! (I mean it. Really.)

    And so are you, Margaret, and you, too, Matthew. This blog is a constant delight to read, and a welcome oasis of sanity, compassion, and good sense – and always a lifeline flung into the apparently bottomless sinkhole of current American “politics”.

    I can’t wait to hear Obama start quoting you. Are you ready for that call from the White House, asking you to hit the campaign trail…? You wouldn’t mind missing your shows for a day or two for that, would you? Your nation needs you!

    A thousand thanks…


  671. Well said.

  672. I love you ladies! I stop whatever I am doing to read your blogs. Hope that is OK that I’ve shared this blog on my Facebook account. Your humor in stating the facts make me think that Mark Twain and Will Rogers have been reincarnated in you two.
    Thanks for writing. Please keep it up!

  673. Relatively speaking, the working poor may pay no federal income taxes, but pay relatively MORE of their income in other taxes: sales tax, state tax, gasoline tax, Social Security tax and so on.

  674. Mitt opens his mouth, and his foot pops in. Born with a silver spoon, he has no clue what it is like to scrimp to pay the bills. He is so utterly out of touch with the vast majority of Americans, that even many Republicans are either cringing or completely turning away. We’ve now seen how he stands on economics and foreign policy (like Obama said, Romney “shoots first and aims later), and he has failed miserably at both. I hope he gets his gold-plated arse handed to him on a silver-plated platter in November.

  675. Nailed it, as usual. Love your posts. :)

  676. Here’s the map link that I forgot to put in my earlier post –> http://dailydish.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e2017c31f0a947970b-800wi

  677. The most ironic thing about what Romney calls his “inelegant but accurate comments” is that he just stuck a sharp stick in the eye of his own supporters — not Obama’s supporters and neither he nor his fans even recognize it.

    Take a look at this may of the ten states with the highest proportion of residents who don’t pay federal taxes. These are the states that Romney indicted in his remarks and are those which he said weren’t his “job to worry about”! They are the very core his GOP, fundie, reactionary and teabaggin’ support and even include Florida, a key battleground state.

    Romney is not only a snob and a jerk. He is a walking, brain-dead gaffe machine. Stick a fork in him. He’s toast.

  678. Margaret, loved your post today. Please, please write about Romney’s telling ABC (George Stephanopolus) that the Middle Class to him were those who earn $250,000 a year. Talk about out of touch!

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