Margaret, I read the comment you sent me and felt compelled to respond. I know you don’t like it when I do, but honey you know how I feel about this particular subject.
Dear Readers,
In case you are new to my web page blog, I’ll give you a little background. I told my friend Margaret that I thought Sarah Palin was a bitch… is a bitch. Anyway, my grandson really hadn’t fully explained to me that other people could see this page besides Margaret. Which is kind of funny because Margaret actually has to have her husband, Howard, print the pages out for her to read because she doesn’t like computers very much….
But I digress.
So I kept writing about things and more people kept stopping by. Just yesterday I was telling Margaret that I find it very odd that Republicans think government is too big and healthcare for all Americans is just insane. It doesn’t seem to matter that it would cost less than Bush’s wars… but that would just be unAmerican of me to suggest…afterall Sarah Palin’s son is in that war…
Again, I digress.
I find it odd because I know that Rick Perry, the Governor of my state, is really upset about how big government has gotten. Evidently it’s not big enough, however, because ‘ole Ricky seems to think its small enough to crawl up my vagina with a sonogram machine and a recorder so that Ricky can tell me how to think based on what God whispers in his ear when no one else is around. To be truthful, it could just be something he picked up in church. I’m not sure. It might have happened at his office. It’s really hard to tell the difference between his office and his church these days.
I just can’t seem to stay on subject today…
So that is what I was writing about to my friend Margaret. And then she had Howard print out my letter and some of your comments. Sometimes – like last night – she calls me because she gets so worried when one of you gets a little upset. But I tell her, “Margaret, dear. It’s just the internet. It’s not like anyone forces them to read it.” But Margaret worries. She just wants everyone to get along. You know. Agree to disagree and things like that. Which would be nice except that Governor Ricky wants to pass some new laws. And once that happens you can’t just agree to disagree. Once it becomes law if you disagree you have to spend a lot of money with lawyers or go to jail.
But I digress.
So last night some fool (sorry Margaret) named Noah decided to call you all sheep because you seemed to like what I had written about Ricky. I wasn’t aware sheep could read, and I have always thought that too often used insult about following like sheep is a bit far-reaching. Yes. Survival instincts in sheep tend to mean that one sheep will more than likely follow the sheep in front. Did you know, however, there is a certain strain of sheep in Iceland known as leadersheep? Leadersheep are highly intelligent animals that have the instinct to lead a flock home during dangerous and difficult conditions. They have an exceptional ability to sense danger. There are many stories in Iceland of leadersheep saving lives during the fall roundups when blizzards threatened shepherds and flocks alike…
But I digress.
Among other things, Noah decided to leave a little pearl of personal wisdom in his not so well thought out diatribe:
__________
With my wife being almost 7 months pregnant this subject really touches home for me so I can understand the passionate feelings from both sides of the issue. Having gone to the first ultrasound I could never have made a choice to abort the child for any reason. I can understand why the governor wants to have women have that firsthand experience of hearing that heartbeat, it is very powerful. I guess I don’t see a problem if what he is suggesting isn’t stopping all abortions, which he is not and I would be opposed to if he was.
__________
Well isn’t that just precious? Noah is particularly knowledgeable about this subject because his wife is 7 months pregnant. Congratulations Noah. I know my readers will join me in wishing you and your family all the best. You’re almost there: two more months to go.
I assume your wife had her amniotic fluid test and that everything turned out fine? It’s a scary time those first few months. Did you know that if you and your wife learned through the amniocentesis that something had gone terribly wrong with the developing fetus that one of your options might be to terminate the pregnancy? Sometimes the abnormality of the fetus is significant. Survival of both the fetus and the mother can be called into question. [By the way. I am using the word fetus not to dehumanize but rather because that is what it is called – a fetus] Often women facing this type of heartbreak consult with their doctors, their family members and even their pastor. I am sure more than a few say a prayer and ask for wisdom. Did you know, Noah, that if your wife was in that situation and she decided to terminate her pregnancy good ‘ole Rick Perry would still force her to look at a sonogram and listen to a heartbeat so that she can agonize further that the child she wanted so desperately isn’t to be. I wonder how comforting you would be to her at that moment. “Look, honey. I can understand why the governor wants to have women have that firsthand experience of hearing that heartbeat, it is very powerful.” Thank goodness that you and your wife are not dealing with that.
And I assume, of course, that the child due to arrive in two months is your child? How blessed for you and your family. Did you know that if your wife had been raped and subsequently discovered that she was pregnant, she may not even want to consult with her family, her priest or even her God. She may want nothing more than to simply ask her doctor to end the unwanted pregnancy so that maybe she can begin to heal from this traumatic experience. Thank goodness that isn’t your situation Noah. Can you imagine how horrible it would for a women like your wife in this moment of sadness, anger, disbelief, denial to have Rick Perry then force her to reconsider by showing her a sonogram and letting her listen to a heartbeat. She’ll have to sign a paper declaring that she watched and listened and still decided to terminate the pregnancy.
Even worse, Noah. Imagine if that woman was your daughter. Do you know the sex of your child yet? What a world she will get to grow up in. So very different from your childhood or even mine. You were there at the invention of the internet. I was there at the invention of the television. I also grew up in a world where abortions were illegal Noah. I watched women die because they had no choices. You realize that Rick Perry wants that world back, right? This nonsense about abortions should only be legal in the case of rape or the life of the mother… what a crock. The world is never so black and white.
But that is not for you Noah. No. This is a time of great joy and celebration for you and your wife. Thank goodness. Some women struggle with the idea of motherhood. They know deep down inside that bringing a life into this world is a blessing yes – but also an enormous responsibility and for some the ultimate sacrifice. To know that another life will depend entirely on your ability to find it within yourself to love so selflessly and care so deeply. To give birth is not to be taken lightly, Noah. Some women, after very serious consideration about where they are in life and what they can and can’t offer to a child, decide that they are just not prepared to bring another life into the world. And after much thought and prayer and probably tears, they still have Rick Perry there to given them even more to consider. Thank goodness for thoughtful ‘ole Ricky.
But not you Noah. Thank goodness you and your wife have made the decision that this is a wanted child… that this will be a loved child… that you have the means to feed and care for this child. I am sure Rick Perry will be sending you a bouquet of flowers after the delivery to show you how much he cares about the very personal decision you have made. I hear that just the other day, Rick sent a letter of congratulations to the woman who just delivered her 5th child because her husband feels that using condoms are a sin. Good ‘ole Rick. I think his letter said something along the lines of don’t worry about where you will get the money to feed the child because you chose life and that is all that matters. Good ‘ole Ricky even sent her one of those lovely Choose Life license plates. She doesn’t own a car, but it’s the thought that counts.
Noah dear. Stick to football. And Mrs. Noah? Slap him for me. He really should spend more time tending to you rather than writing to me. But I digress. I mean it. Really.
Margaret and Helen 
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By: Leah Dotten on May 29, 2011
at 10:19 AM
@tammyharper — Given the length of this thread I haven’t read all the posts, but I did see that you mentioned the Katherine Windels case, and suggested that no liberals would denounce her. So I’m stepping in to say that this hardcore lefty (as in “the Dems are too conservative for my tastes”) absolutely abhors what she did, and supports her being prosecuted for it. Resorting to threats, and particularly extending those threats to your target’s family, is unconscionable. I can’t say why others haven’t spoken up–I’d like to think it’s not because they condone her actions, but who knows? Certainly there are some liberals who behave as badly as the conservatives we criticize.
I also saw you mentioned free speech, so while I’m here I’ll mention I support it strongly regardless of the speaker. For instance, I applauded the Supreme Court’s recent decision in the case against the Westboro Baptist Church, and believe it to be a perfect example of the principle of free speech. However, I don’t feel similarly compelled to defend Glenn Beck, as you implied people like me should, because he was not censored by the government, rather his platform was removed by the private entity that had previously supplied it. The misunderstanding of the difference between the right to speak [sacred, IMO] and the right to a platform [nonexistent] has always been a pet peeve of mine. But I’ll admit it was particularly galling to hear cries of censorship from some conservative-minded people who otherwise seem to think private corporations don’t have enough freedom as it is.
Finally, for the record, I am not alone in my feelings, but I’ve found people like me often avoid certain sites or threads because it’s tiresome to read endless variations on “Rethuglicans are evil”/”Libtards are stupid.” The state of political discourse in this country saddens and frustrates me because it’s so hard to know how to fix it. I only know for sure that it starts with a personal resolve to be the better person in a conflict.
(Oh, and the abortion issue? Not touching that with a ten-foot pole!!)
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By: Diane on May 12, 2011
at 4:00 PM
jsri, I agree, we still face the possibility of attacks in this country and around the world, in that regard President George W Bush was right in his statement about not obsessing about OBL’s capture. The great thing, about the raid, is all the intellgence that has been recovered in this raid. I bet that is a great read!
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By: No one's puppet on May 4, 2011
at 10:47 AM
To my friends and some detractors who said I was not worthy of debate I say that boat has sailed and there were missed opportunities to discuss rationally but instead was broadsided. I have made some good friends James and PFessor and hopefully some good people’s trust. I’m thankful that a few of you have rallied about me and my wife during these last few months and appreciate your thoughts and prayers.
To Jean and a few others who were not comfortable with rational posts well….she is
Better off now since she has the kitchen where she can hold court and postulate about days gone by.
The board was undone by people not wanting to acknowledge others ideas and yet pounce on any rational thought that did not come from the ones at the top of the dirt pile. So as in school yard games those at the bottom of the hill would be clobbered with dirt clods for trying to play the game.
I’m hanging in there as is the wife..the best friend of my life who will receive the Deans award tomorrow night. Remember..I’m the one not bright enough to have married an intellectual. Oh but I did, and life has been a roller coaster full of thrills and delights. Looking forward to many more curves and loops with Valerie.
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By: Craig on May 4, 2011
at 8:39 AM
Here’s Nancy Pelosi from a press conference on September 7, 2006:
[E]ven if [Osama bin Laden] is caught tomorrow, it is five years too late. He has done more damage the longer he has been out there. But, in fact, the damage that he has done . . . is done. And even to capture him now I don’t think makes us any safer.
And here’s Nancy Pelosi yesterday:
The death of Osama bin Laden marks the most significant development in our fight against al-Qaida. . . . I salute President Obama, his national security team, Director Panetta, our men and women in the intelligence community and military, and other nations who supported this effort for their leadership in achieving this major accomplishment. . . . [T]he death of Osama bin Laden is historic. . . .
This devastating then-and-now comparison comes to us courtesy of John Hideraker of Power Line. It underscores the degree to which partisanship can ravage people’s fair-mindedness and, in the process, make them look like fools and hacks. Such things aren’t uncommon in politics—but what is rare is to see such intellectual dishonesty proven so conclusively.
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By: Craig on May 4, 2011
at 8:23 AM
https://margaretandhelen.wordpress.com/2008/12/22/end-of-days/
This is for anyone still wanting to try Helen’s stuffing recipe………thanks to Alaskapi for helping me find it.
Hope these two wonderful ladies will still grace us with their wonderful wit and wisdom. I am checking daily but am having some doubts that we will ever hear from them again.
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By: Crafty Lady in Illinois on May 2, 2011
at 5:50 PM
I have deeply mixed feelings about the assassination of Usama Bin Ladin. Certainly the world is a better place without him but Al Qaeda, though seeming to be headless at the moment, has cells and operatives all across the globe and it’s only a matter of time before we get hit again. And I’m sure Al Qaeda operatives will not forget the image of ecstatic Americans celebrating in front of the White House. I suspect that that image will be used over and over again as justification for their future actions.
Why do we always have to glorify “winning”? The Israeli’s are known for carrying out clandestine operations to suit their purposes and more often than not leave the world guessing about their participation. For the sake of our nation I wish we could do the same. I fear that the death of Usama Bin Ladin will simply be an opening shot in a never-ending terror campaign that will be escalated through mutual reinforcement without ever having clear cut “winners”.
Only a fool would believe that this is the end of the issue
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By: jsri on May 2, 2011
at 1:47 PM
Looks like Noah can’t wait for “this board is finished” & the “class dismissed”. If Noah says it’s so, it must be so! Been there, done that, find a new mantra, yours is long dead.
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By: marthauys on May 2, 2011
at 12:49 PM
Noah, that’s about the dumbest comment I’ve read so far! Thanks for the giggle.
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By: marthauys on May 2, 2011
at 12:40 PM
Just a note on Osama bin Laden. Both Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh have given MAJOR high praise to Obama for taking this guy down. Further proof the class of the conservative side that the Liberal party could learn from and should be taking note. We all know were it Bush that had done it the left would never acknowledge his role as they are not now acknowledging his role.
This will be telling if our hosts are still around or not. Should they ignore this event we will know for sure in the next couple days that this board is finished.
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By: Noah on May 2, 2011
at 10:16 AM
And then the man he steps right up to the microphone
And says at last just as the time bell rings
‘Goodnight, now it’s time to go home’
And he makes it fast with one more thing
‘We are the Sultans… We are the Sultans of Swing’
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By: PFesser on April 30, 2011
at 11:19 AM
Anonymous, I understand why you might feel as you do, coming from a position of ignorance and short sightedness.
My understanding from people on this board that have been around much longer than I have is that I am the only person to have been addressed directly and had a post dedicated to by this boards host. Exactly how many posts have you had commented on by them? That would be zero. That would mean I have a point of view worth commenting on, and you did not. I’ll take that as a victory, and your commentary as a jealous rant.
As far as being sliced up and roasted, no not really. Considering they commented on my opinions and never once had the intestinal fortitude to respond, there was no slicing to be done. They offered their myopic opinion to my brilliant and well thought out argument because it threatened what they believed in. Had I not gotten inside their heads they would not have been so moved to respond.
AS for ID’ing yourself, since you have been served once again, might just be better to stay Anonymous, and crawl back into the shadows. Class dismissed.
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By: Noah on April 29, 2011
at 8:06 PM
OOOOPS!!!
Forgot to ID myself.
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By: Anonymous on April 29, 2011
at 12:06 PM
Haven’t been on this site for a while and after reading Noah’s post I thought I was visiting Comedy Central. When somebody who’s been sliced up like a roasted turkey by the site’s host, tells the world that being roundly skewered by her is an “honor” – that’s gut busting funny. Instead of “opening another’s mind to ideas they had not considered” it was his rude and nasty behavior as a guest on her site that prompted her to take him to the woodshed – not some philosophical collision.
About the only point of agreement between Noah and me is that this board has seen the end of its days. Going on for almost four months now is too long an absence to recover from. The only reason I wonder where Noah and his ilk will end up next is because I have no intention of going there. And, Noah, a real philosopher might also say, “self praise is no recommendation”.
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By: Anonymous on April 29, 2011
at 12:04 PM
I like the story PFessor.
Hi Craig, you left while I was gone. I have thought about you and wondered how you and your family are. Yes, the last post was written in hate, but it was a back- handed complement that they would take the trouble to write about you.
This reminds me of the last episode of MASH or the last day of school. I also lived through a closing on my last base before I returned to the US to become a civilian. The base was closing and we all were going our separate ways. Life unraveled for a month or two as people left. We had the most memorable good bye party of my life.
Just in case it is over:
“Closing time Time for you to go out
to the places you will be from
Closing time. This room won’t be open
until your brothers and sisters come
…Closing time. Every beginning comes
from some other beginning’s end.”
Semisonic
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By: James on April 28, 2011
at 12:48 PM
Hey guys. It does appear this board has seen its end of days. I consider it a great honor that this boards last post was directed at me, even if it was in hate. To a true philosopher there is no greater reward than to open another’s mind to ideas they had not considered, I believe I did just that. Even though the reactions were negative and hostile, I got inside their head and made them think, and that was my only goal.
I do hope that our hosts are both alive and well and if they are able or of the mind too should have a farewell post to thank all their loyal followers. I leave you with one of my favorite videos.
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By: Noah on April 28, 2011
at 10:34 AM
Molly Ivins?????????
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By: PFesser on April 27, 2011
at 7:22 PM
Are you sure you’re not the reincarnation of Molly Ivins?????
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By: Linda on April 27, 2011
at 11:39 AM
I located my favorite (tough!) high school teacher in Cleveland many years ago. She was in her lower nineties, having never married (had something to do with a fiancee’ who died in the war according to local legend) and was living with her 90’s brother.
When I came to visit, I said, “Miss Deitz, do you remember me?”
“Why yes, of course. You were lazy.”
Well, nothing wrong with the old girl’s head…
I later discovered her brother had died and she’d moved to a retirement home. I called her every Christmas Day (her birthday) until about five years ago, when they told me she had died. I think she was about 100.
Great, great lady.
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By: PFesser on April 27, 2011
at 6:11 AM
My son who is living in AU for a while was the one who sent this blog to me. I have really enjoyed what Helen has to say and the way she says it…;^) However, I’m very worried that something may have happened to her. I do hope she’s ok.
I sent my much awaited dilatory Christmas Letter to an old friend who was in the same age range. It was strange that I didn’t hear from her at Christmas. The letter was finally returned from the retirement community in VA, marked “deceased” with no further information.
So I guess what most of us here would like is knowledge of closure one way or another. Some think that Helen and Margaret aren’t “real”, but I’ve known a lot of very feisty ladies “of an age” with valid opinions, too. Unfortunately, many of them are also gone now.
So Matthew, if you should happen to see this, please reply. I’m signing off… (Hmmm, I can hear Ella singing that song in my head as I typed it.)
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By: hillsmom on April 26, 2011
at 8:43 AM
kimwim, I wonder about them also, but this is their blog and they don’t owe us anything. Maybe another message will be here tomorrow, or next month, or never. It happens. I’ve seen two blogs like this run their course– then we moved on.
There is nothing stopping you from starting your own party here. Write something, and someone will eventually answer. I will check out for good one of these days, but you don’t have to.
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By: James on April 25, 2011
at 3:24 PM
I am worried for Helen and Margaret, they haven’t posted since Jan. 25 from what I can tell, unless I’m missing something. I’d like to be part of this community, but I’m afraid I’m too late to the party. It’s good to read the nice conversation going back and forth.
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By: kimwim on April 25, 2011
at 9:45 AM
This is a unique site designed to be a free for all. Over the past two years , I’ve met some nice, open-minded people, two of whom at the beginning, told me the site needed folks like me, even though they disagreed with almost everything I wrote. They also predicted the bigots would drive me away.
Jsri,
I entered a new accelerated graduate school program designed to let students earn their MAs and PHDS with theses and dissertations within four years. I was terrified because I had been away for a long time, and most of my competition was in school without a break. Moreover, I still had nightmares and needed some peace.
At our first department orientation party, people were comparing assistanceships. I had been out of the country and didn’t understand how much “the world” had changed. I said I had what was left of the GI Bill. A hush fell over our part of the room. A young man said “You don’t belong here you fascist. We’ll get rid of you.” They tried and failed.
I consider you and people like you to be their spiritual bretheren. I will never forget, and I will expose you for what you are at every opportunity. People like you created me, and your chickens have come home to roost. The Pfessor and others forced no one to leave. You flatter us to say we did. We all have free will.
This one’s for you Palin Shutup, Rae, Juneau Joe, Jean, and the other nice folks who couldn’t stand us on this site. I also dedicate it to others who mistreated my kind when we came home.
“I was shattered and I wanted you
to come and make me whole
Then, I saw you yesterday
but you didn’t notice
You just walked away
’cause everything you wanted me to hide
is everything that makes me feel alive
If you were right and I was wrong
Why are you the one who’s gone?
The lights go out, the bridges burn
Once you go you can’t return
Remember how you used to say
I’d be the one to run away?
But I’m still here.”
Vertical Horizon
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By: James on April 25, 2011
at 8:50 AM
H&M. Like many posters here I came in almost four years ago and stayed because I was attracted to the kindness, generosity and welcoming nature of your followers who came from many walks of life and from all corners of the country (and beyond). And as I followed along I saw a lot of people who were delighted to have a place where they could share thoughts, insights, experiences and ideas with others of similar makeup.
Unfortunately, your overwhelming success recently brought in the naysayers and negativists who found that they could get their repellent messages out by co-opting your site. As they succeeded in driving the rational posters away, I’ve noted a sharp drop off in responders from a million hits a year on average to many fewer now. The cause and effect is quite clear. Now they claim to be moving on to a site that suits their purposes better but I suspect that is simply a ruse to get you to post again so the can resume their attacks.
Having said all that, I want to thank you sincerely for establishing this site. Without it I probably would never have had the opportunity to connect with so many decent and thoughtful people. But I will sorely miss your humor and perceptiveness concerning our political system. It was an informative and fun ride while it lasted
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By: jsri on April 24, 2011
at 11:32 AM
Helen and Margaret,
It has been quite a ride, your site found me as the result of a happy coincidence, I didn’t find it, since then you given me lot of laughs. It has also made me realize, the loss of one’s sense of humor is not inevitable, I raise my glass to the two of you: Thanks for the good times, my best to both of you!
NOP
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By: No one's puppet on April 24, 2011
at 10:24 AM
James –
Since the last post was almost exactly three months ago, I think one must conclude that this blog has been abandoned by whoever is writing it, or in any case that the posts are so infrequent as to make it irrelevant.
With the breakup of the BBB, M&H’s usefulness as a clever, but blatant, shill for the (fortunately small) bigot subset of the Left has been gone for a long time, so I have to conclude that the writer(s), whoever they are, have lit out for greener pastures. Nice work, us.
I’ll check in every so often as myself and others to make sure it doesn’t fall back into those old, bad habits. In the meantime I’m finding some real challenge – and some tough cookies – at Rutherford’s blog. It’s a real step up and good exercise for the brain; I’m having a ball. You and Craig have my email.
No mas, te.
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By: PFesser on April 23, 2011
at 7:32 PM
Ah yes, “The Intimidator.” You can still google Dale Earnhardt on you tube and see him in action. He would spin someone into the wall and say with a little smirk “I didn’t mean for it to happen. I only meant to rattle his cage a little.”
Retired driver Darrel Waltrop is now a commentater for Fox Sports. He had some classic battles with the “intimidator.”
I like the joke.
Youtube has NASCAR fights, so maybe there is something with Dale SR. too.
I think Earnhardt died ten years ago this summer. He took an awfully hard hit straight into the wall so most of the energy was not dissipated as it is when a car tumbles down the track.
His son, Dale Junior is a popular driver and seems nicer on the track than his father. His fans are sometimes called “Junior Nation.”
Many NASCAR drivers and crew began on farms and in small towns. Some didn’t have much money. Many are born again Christians and some will tear up during the National Anthem. Many give a lot to charity and witness their faith to others.
On the other hand, they are adrenalin junkies who want to win at all costs. They hold grudges and will brawl.
The drivers are only the most visible parts of their teams. Crews, spotters, crew chiefs, and engine designers are just as important. Crews hold their own competitions.
Indie style racers like Danica Patrick look down on NASCAR, but even she competed in a few NASCAR races recently. Several drivers like Juan Pablo Montoya and Sam Hornish JR. have switched to NASCAR.
Yes, like NOP, Lori, and many others, we had a good feeling about you two and still do. You on the other hand had better watch your step or Val will be watching after you.
Vigilanti justice is usually different from self defense as you write, NOP, but it can become proactive as in northwest Missouri when a man killed a bully and no one talked. It was done out of fear of future danger as well as punishment for past misdeeds.
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By: James on April 23, 2011
at 6:52 PM
Craig, a lot of us had an inkling Val was going to be very successful in her battle with the big C, glad we were right. You are another case, though, watch your step.
Vigilante justice? The West has been settled, therefore I’m not even going contemplate here. It is not really the same as self-defense is it?
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By: No one's puppet on April 23, 2011
at 10:40 AM
James –
I don’t watch racing, but my brother used to tell me about a driver they called “The Intimidator” who bullied everybody around on the track. Why didn’t somebody punch his lights out after the race? I think he wrecked later and got killed. There was some joke about his being like Michael Jackson and chasing little boys ’round and ’round, but Jackson could catch them. You probably get the humour since you are a fan.
Yeah, you can’t be doing the vigilante thing. That is the whole purpose of the law – to be devised when everybody is calm so it can be used to do the right thing when people are not. I still do not see how the Westboro people have survived this long, though. god, I have two sons of military age. If one of them got killed and these jokers showed up, I don’t know what I would do…I just don’t know…
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By: PFesser on April 23, 2011
at 10:27 AM
Craig I am THRILLED for you and Val’s good news!!!!! Salute!
Have a lovely and blessed weekend. We will continue to keep you close.
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By: lori on April 23, 2011
at 10:25 AM
I have very mixed feelings about such justice too, alaskapi.
Compared to you folks, we are over populated, but we still have so few people our county has only five traffic lights. Our son’s dorm at ISU held more people than all of our towns combined.
The closest neighbor lives two miles away.
NASCAR features vigilanti justice on national television. If a driver crowds or bumps another, the victim is likely to spin him out later. Brad Kaslowski did several things to Carl Edwards. Edwards finally spun Kaslowski into a wall. The car flipped through the air and he might have died. NASCAR put both on probation and the trouble stopped.
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By: James on April 23, 2011
at 9:55 AM
Craig-
Such good news about Val!!
Congratulations to her!!
And you… ouch, ouch, ouch!
Next time you want or need some excitement in your life, speak up here and I can send you some hot pink bow ties or theatre makeup to make warts on your face or something. No more tilting at doggie gates or dancing with them or whatever it was!
Yes, vigilante behavior is common here in rural parts of this state too, James, though it has more to do with the vast distances from law enforcement than anything else usually. Sometimes weather and distance mean it is days before troopers can get into a remote community when there is trouble. The Village Police Officer program was developed to try to change that and shows some promise.
I have very mixed feelings about it all. A man was beaten to death by his neighbors a number of years ago after someone accused him of molesting a child. Not only did it turn out that he had nothing to do with it but when authorities actually arrived and investigated it turned out one of the prime instigators of stirring up what became a mob was the offender. Whatever has some kind of appeal in the whole thing also has a very dark side if not watched very carefully.
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By: alaskapi on April 23, 2011
at 9:23 AM
Doug Powers with Michele Malkin’s blog discussed a threatening phone call to a Sheboygan, Wisconsin gas station clerk. The caller said she had seen state Senator Joe Leibham a Republican, buying gas there.
She said selling gas to him was bad for business.
The call was recorded on an answering machine, and the clerk traced the call to the Sheboygan area district school office.
The customer was the senator’s brother. “What a maroon!”
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By: James on April 23, 2011
at 6:52 AM
Here is another one for Tammyharper’s list. A man named Kock runs a business in Des Moines. He has been getting hostile e mails for a while. The latest was a death threat. He has no connection to the infamous Kock brothers. Not only do some of the leftists make violent threats but they are also stupid.
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By: James on April 23, 2011
at 6:35 AM
That’s an interesting story, PFessor. I wonder if that woman told her children and grand children. Your part of the country is probably full of stories like that.
I don’t really think anything violent will happen to my wife and me, but I do worry about our dog. One of the men who “killed” himself shot himself in the head–twice.
During the WW! era, a new drainage ditch was in place. During floods, farmers sometimes cut the dike on the opposite side of their homes to take the pressure from them. My grand parents got tired of it, so my grand father and his three oldest children carried rifles and patrolled the dike at night.
Nothing happened except for the time my aunt fired at a shadow.
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By: James on April 22, 2011
at 8:55 PM
James –
re: vigilante justice. My Dad told me the following story that happened when he was a young man – but I think not married yet – so that would be around 1915 or so:
A local young lady lived alone in a small house up one of the hollers of southern West Virginia. She had been implicated in several peccadilloes concerning four or five young married families, which is to say she had either bedded or tried to bed several of the young husbands.
She was warned by several of the older church ladies, but basically laughed it off.
One night about ten of the older men in the community, a couple of whom were the fathers of the young men in question, stole quietly up the hollow to her cabin, having cut dozens of keen switches from the brush and trees along the way.
They entered her cabin during the dead of night under lantern light (remember this was before rural electrification in the ‘thirties) turned up her skirts and cut her bare rear end and legs to ribbons, until they ran out of switches. She was given a warning that it would be better if she moved out of the community, which of course she did.
Not quite as deadly as your experiences, but certainly a memorable tale.
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By: PFesser on April 22, 2011
at 7:44 PM
Blowing away the Westboro folks would definitely be inappropriate, PFessor.
Tammyharper, Obama shows no signs of changing spending policy. He says we can fix this by taxing the rich, but he is lying. The rich don’t have enough money as the figures I quoted a few days ago show. The real money is with the middle class, and the government will come for it one way or another. Even that will be a temporary fix.
A Boston University economist estimates the fiscal end will come by 2017 when the bond market collapses. We are like a vampire sucking its own blood.
Tick tock, Tammy.
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By: James on April 22, 2011
at 7:15 PM
Here is how vigilanti justice works near our home. Several men act as “enforcers” to persuade trouble makers to ease off or else.
Our law enforcement is too far away and unwilling to do much, so people take matters into their own hands.
Eight or nine years ago, I submitted statements against a neighbor in an insurance fraud case. We cost him a lot of money. He was a bully and in return, he tried to burn our farmstead down. That was his version of “justice.” Two volunteer fire departments and we put out the fire. We didn’t press charges because there was no evidence. However, both fire departments were sure the fire was not accidental.
We helped a divorced woman who’s ex- husband showed signs of wanting to kill her. He was a member of a drug gang and after we started helping the women, they turned their attention to us. They damaged some property and parked darkened pickups near our driveway at late hours.
Three unexplained “suicides ” occurred, so I kept a loaded rifle by the door and posted on a message board that if my wife and I died it would not be by suicide. They were finally arrested and sent away.
Last fall, one of my wife’s high school students got mad at her. They are violent and have spent a couple of nights in jail for vandalism and for pouring battery acid down a mule’s throat. He and his friends have visited us at night when we are asleep or gone. The pranks have slowly escalated to their killing and partly skinning a labrador- sized dog and putting it on the hood of our car.
Last week, they set a fire a quarter mile east of our house while we were gone. The grass was dry, and it was racing toward our home in an east wind. My wife and I put out the fire in about two hours and finished after 11PM.
We have been telling everyone we know, including people at school. Some have said we should call the sheriff, but it would accomplish little more than make the kids mad.
My wife was buying groceries today and ran into one of the “enforcers” who likes us. He asked for the names of the kids, but my wife said we could handle it. He told her to call if anything happens and they will be there for us. He also told my wife a fire arms class is being held next Saturday. If one passes the test and pays $50.00 he/she can carry.
This is bothering my wife more than I thought. She wants us to take the test. Nothing violent will probably come of it, but if it does, my wife is a very good shot with a pistol. The best nonlethal shot is at the knees.
Vigilantism is alive and well.
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By: James on April 22, 2011
at 7:01 PM
Craig –
Good news and bad news for you. Wow, man – maybe you should go live in a swamp…
The fractures through the “surgical neck” of the humerus are SO common. They are tough to immobilize because of their location but usually heal OK. Your career as a professional pitcher, however, is in some jeopardy. LOL.
Sounds like Val is tough as balls. Congrats to her. Good, good stuff.
Hey, I’ve been checking out Rutherford’s blog. Very cool. Lots of ideas floating around, and lots of profanity. Very irreverent. No thought police. Some smart people there. Check it out. A little whiskey and it would be damned near perfect. (I think he’s working on that part.)
re: Westboro. I have very mixed feelings about them. I think blowing them away would be (somewhat) inappropriate. However, were I on a jury trying the alleged perp, I would guarantee at the worst a hung jury. Defective carbon units have to go. Just my opinion.
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By: PFesser on April 22, 2011
at 6:30 PM
“Unfortunately, for some areas of the country, there is a long and involved history of such events.”
Yep. Like San Francisco.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Committee_of_Vigilance
If memory serves, that is where the term “vigilante” originated. Who knew?! First vigilante justice, then pot smoking, then d*ck smoking. See how that “gateway drug” thing works?
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By: PFesser on April 22, 2011
at 6:18 PM
and the ticker still remains at zero
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By: tammyharper on April 22, 2011
at 6:12 PM
I usually like to refer to my common sense. It rarely leads me astray.
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By: tammyharper on April 22, 2011
at 6:11 PM
tammyharper on April 22, 2011 at 10:15 AM you said “in this case it is the right thing to do” when referring to members of the Westboro Baptist Church getting beaten up.
And who decided it was the “right” thing to do?
By your logic if a group of people has an ethical or moral dislike of something you said or wrote does that give any of them the right beat up your relatives and burn your house down? I don’t think so – or do you disagree?
I thought the Supreme Court settled that case, – as disagreeable as it may seem to be to most people.
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By: jsri on April 22, 2011
at 3:52 PM
Interesting fact. Obama has added more to our national debt in his first two years in office than the previous 43 Presidents combined.
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By: tammyharper on April 22, 2011
at 3:47 PM
James you have to be especially careful about those brown recluse attack bunnies.
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By: Craig on April 22, 2011
at 3:02 PM
Thanks for the good news about Val, Craig. I was thinking about you two yesterday.
Our friend’s 84 year-old grandmother has had inoperable cancer for several years, and she still lives by herself. The doctor thinks she will see 90 if something else doesn’t get her first.
As for you, painful sounds like an understatement.
I hope you both have a good Easter weekend.
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By: James on April 22, 2011
at 2:45 PM
Yes, on one level, what happened to the cultists was wrong, but it was certainly satisfying.
Vigilanti justice is endemic to empty parts of the country because the law is unwilling or unable to enforce its edicts. For example, a bully in northwest Missouri was considered a danger to the community. Someone killed him, and the murder was never solved because no one knew or saw anything.
It is also in parts of big cities. Several of our daughter’s therapy clients have been victims of revenge shootings. One client died after another of her clients shot him.
Vigilantism can be more than justice denied. At its worst, it is life denied.
Yes, that part about BP is wrong.
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By: James on April 22, 2011
at 2:31 PM
PFesser, Lori, NOP,Alaskapi,delurkergurl and James
Valerie flew in Tuesday and met Dr. O’Shaughnessy the Cancer Researcher in Dallas.
She said that Val had improved 80% from when we last visited in February and that she liked the progress she saw from the reduction in size of lymph nodes and tumor markers in the latest blood tests.
The Doctor said it was very encouraging in Val’s capabilities to withstand the Chemo so well and still work. O’Shaughnessy had nothing but good things to say and said come back in six weeks after the next two cycles of treatment. That would be late May early June time frame.
Val will never be totally cancer free, but the Doctor said there is a very good chance of putting this in a “semi state” of permanent remission with continued Chemo. Plus eventually at some point maybe months from now, those Chemo treatments may go to a strictly oral regimen.
Val was ecstatic and returned this afternoon. More later…
I wrote the above Tuesday night..wednesday am I tripped and fell over a doggie gate and fractured my upper left Humerous right under the the ball joint..which is not very funny and painful to boot..no surgery needed just time..Starting to look like a war zone around here.
I’m sure Val will update her blog site soon.
Thanks for all the prayers…Best to all….
And as for the Westboro folks, they will get a message directly from God some day and it may not be pretty. I agree PFesser those WV and other Applachia folks won’t take getting messed with.
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By: Craig on April 22, 2011
at 1:47 PM
This is just wrong
http://act.credoaction.com/campaign/nobptaxbreak/index2.html?rc=LA_042122011_BP_a1
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By: tammyharper on April 22, 2011
at 12:17 PM
Sometimes it is harder to do things on an official level. But in this case it is the right thing to do. I have found few rules to be universally true, there almost always is a valid exception. In the case of these people I find that it is a very valid exception.
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By: tammyharper on April 22, 2011
at 10:15 AM
Vigilante justice is justice denied. Lauding this sort of behavior is easy, especially when reprehensible characters like members of the Westboro group are the victims, but it is still wrong. Unfortunately, for some areas of the country, there is a long and involved history of such events.
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By: jsri on April 22, 2011
at 9:49 AM
Tammyharper –
The Westboro thing made my day.
I have it on good authority that when they were “protesting” at the mine in WV last April that the only thing that saved the female from taking a bullet between the tits from the mountainside above was the fact she had her kids with her. One of the vanguard did get his face messed up at a local convenience store by a miner. I am told a local State Policeman then arrested him for disturbing the peace.
That is not the way to handle things, but by their actions they are inviting disaster. They are messing around with the wrong people.
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By: PFesser on April 22, 2011
at 9:33 AM
How dare you. My veracity is unimpeachable. You sir are a coward and a prevaricator of the highest magnitude.
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By: Anonymous on April 22, 2011
at 8:29 AM
Not me. the other one.
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By: Anonymous on April 22, 2011
at 8:13 AM
FYI, Anonymous = jsri
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By: Anonymous on April 22, 2011
at 8:09 AM
tammyharper, I agree. Omaha radio station KFAB was just talking about it.
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By: James on April 22, 2011
at 6:34 AM
No offense intended to Lepers, but it does look like a Leper Colony squatted here for a couple of days.
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By: Anonymous on April 22, 2011
at 12:41 AM
Childish comments require childish responses.
Wayne, Wayne, go away.
Don’t come back another day.
Your rants and rages
Fill too many pages
Like a force of gravity
With increasing depravity
But nobody cares
See, nobody cares.
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By: Anonymous on April 21, 2011
at 8:05 PM
OH brave anonymous poster,
That’s a zillion rubes. That’s not a following. That’s one leaping lemming heading a zillion other lemmings over a cliff. 😈
You think some cult following made of hapless sheep is great strength, do you? Chuckle. That zoo with their fascist bozo as author is one step above Heaven’s Gate carrying their Pet Rocks.
So let me elaborate again anonymous. I think Jumping Jimmie Flash a clueless MSNBC dolt that needs a teleprompter to know how to tell his kid goodnight. Tell him I said that. If he wants to prove me wrong, he knows where to find me.
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By: Wayne Perram on April 21, 2011
at 3:39 PM
http://thehayride.com/2011/04/westboro-baptist-church-goes-to-mississippi-and-loses/
All I can say it is about dam time.
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By: tammyharper on April 20, 2011
at 11:22 PM
I, too, want to hear from Helen or at least know that she and Margaret and their families are enjoying life and not having any major troubles.
Family members, can you let us know?
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By: Shash on April 20, 2011
at 7:08 PM
I hate to interrupt anyone, but I’m trying to find out if anything happened to Helen. I love her blog and I get worried when she’s absent for so long. Does anyone know? If this has been answered somewhere in the thousands of comments above, my apologies. I don’t have enough hours in the day to read them all. I wish I did.
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By: lou on April 20, 2011
at 1:10 PM
Is it safe to assume this is spillover feud from another board?
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By: tammyharper on April 20, 2011
at 12:44 PM
And Jim Wright has a zillion followers, – and you have how many, – a generous two or fewer?
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By: Anonymous on April 20, 2011
at 11:52 AM
OH, what great lib humor!!! One of the seven predictable comeback lines. I’m going to write a book on the predictability of lib humor, but it will be only two pages long. Pull their string, and you get a random canned insult repeated ad infinitum.
However, my debating skills were not the issue “Sky”. Do you wear flowers in your hair?
The premise was not that I am Patrick Henry, but that Jumping Jimmie Wright is a goosestepping censor that can not stand up to scrutiny once removed from home base – big on mouth, short on truth. It’s hardly unique as it applies to 98% of liberals juiced on MSNBC.
Jumping Jim is dependent upon the same mindless sycophants that frequent places like Media Matters, KKKOs, and a few WordPress blogs of lefty persuasion that will go unmentioned (cough cough). It’s feeds his insecure ego.
I’m simply volunteering to help prove that if little Jimmie wishes to step off the curb. 😉
There’s a teleprompter joke there somewhere…
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By: Wayne Perram on April 20, 2011
at 11:39 AM
Helen,
I found your blog and enjoy your thinking. When will you share more of your wit with us? I see you have quite a following here.
I noticed you have one Wayne Perram who seems to consider himself quite the debater and also good at baiting someone to debate with him.
So should I gather he is a Master Baiter or Master Debater?
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By: skyblue on April 20, 2011
at 11:23 AM
Hey Smashmouth, you read like Poolman.
You also read like an upstanding member of Jim’s blog – right on target with the ill-timed misspelling. Rule #1 – If you’re going to make some lame attempt at insulting from a horrid song, at least spell the insult right Tiger.
Yeah, Jim so “pawned” me, he couldn’t answer my questions, so he banned me. He’s an uneducated lackey, who lied about his academic credentials which didn’t match his boring stories of glory days. What a worm. 🙄
As for Rutherford? The only classy lib I’ve ever debated with. Don’t really care what your opinion is of old “R”, but he’s a Harvard graduate in mathematics, which would make him about million times more intelligent than say you and Jim “Bradley Manning” Wright. Why don’t you get your vicious buddy over to Rutherford’s place, where we can debate a few “facts” without moderation.
Then we’ll see how Jim pawns people in an open forum with his ‘high standards’ of bleating sheep. Here’s a ten dollar bet Rambo can’t and won’t make it out from the echo chamber.
Pass this on to Rambo, will you? 🙂
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By: Wayne Perram on April 19, 2011
at 9:40 PM
Lemme take my socks off so’s I can keep score.
Jim is a loser, yet he pwnnnnned Waynie. What’s that make Waynie? Dumb. No, dubmer! My favorite song comes to mind. “Wayne wuz lookin kinda dumb with his finga and his fumb in the shape of an L on his forehead.” Sadly, he was looking in the mirror.
Wayne, baby, you shouldn’t waste your time over there. Head to Rutherfordl’s blog. He’s dumb AND has no standards. Exactly your kind of place. I think he enjoys abuse. No match for yo, baby! You be a real man there! Whatever your type is, it will quiver and swoon.
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By: Smashmouth on April 19, 2011
at 8:47 PM
Someone need an anger management course.
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By: Anonymous on April 19, 2011
at 8:10 PM
Oops…hear himself write. 😳
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By: Wayne Perram on April 19, 2011
at 8:03 PM
PeeDeeKew,
You mean Blowhard Jim? I figured his “troops” would frag him first.
I’ve already caught old Fearless JimmyDewKew in one bald faced lie about his education. He was so dim, he couldn’t even keep his lies straight. Contradicted himself and didn’t even know it. I’ll remind him of that if he comes over.
But I’m not buying your story. Old Rambo Jim is so long-winded at his own blog, there aren’t enough hours in the day for him to man two. I’ve never read a dimmer bulb that liked to here himself “write.”
But I sure wish he’d take me on around an unedited board. I find him a rank coward and uninformed rube, and will be happy to prove it when the time is convenient.
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By: Wayne Perram on April 19, 2011
at 8:01 PM
Hey Wayne
I heard by the grapevine that Jim Wright will be taking over this site. Good news huh?
Ha Ha Ha Ha
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By: PeeDeeKew on April 19, 2011
at 2:13 PM
All of you meet here regularly, I presume, and act like Helen’s naughty children without any supervision. I come to check if she’s posted, as it is now baseball season and the football reference depresses me because that means it’s been a while. Maybe she’s just tired of all the crap that goes on in the comments section… Just a thought.
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By: Adiena on April 19, 2011
at 1:51 PM
So well said! Love every ounce of this. Thank you!
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By: Popples on April 19, 2011
at 11:10 AM
Very interesting PFessor. I’m still on the fence, but with 45% of the population’s not paying income taxes we need something to keep them engaged. If we don’t, many of those folks will support whatever our money will provide until the foreclosure notice arrives. Maybe the flat tax will be the only way, but I doubt we will see it right now.
Speaking of Hellbound Trains, I found a you tube video staring one of my distant cousins. I mean as close as the Cheney and Obama families or Madonna and Gwen Stefani. Gooble Roger Williamson and David Purley by Zafir001. The song track is “May Angels Lead You” Other you tube sites show the same drama. Like Hellbound Trains, I regard it as a metaphor for our times.
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By: James on April 19, 2011
at 8:18 AM
Tammyharper & James –
I just finished Boortz’ first book on the FairTax. Very, very interesting, indeed! And very timely – S&P has just issued a warning to downgrade the US Government’s credit rating from AAA. That has never happened in the history of the country; nice going Barack! To paraphrase lori – Yes we can and yes we did! We drove the country right down the tubes!
Of course the politicos who use the convoluted tax code to reward their friends and punish their enemies are opposed to the FairTax, because it represents a huge transfer of power from them back to the People. Ditto their political supporters, who believe that the elite in Washington know better how to spend the money we earn than we do.
One of the misrepresentations they spout is that the FairTax is “regressive” – code for, “disproportionately affecting poor people.” Here is a direct quote from Professor Laurence Kotlikoff, an economist at Boston University (that hotbed of conservative thought, LOL), who has studied the FairTax proposal extensively:
“The FairTax imposes much lower average taxes on working-age households than does the current system. The FairTax’s reduction in average tax rates on the working-age population reflects the broadening of the tax base from what is now primarily a system of labor income taxation to a system that taxes, albeit indirectly, both labor income and EXISTING WEALTH. (caps mine) Consider, as an example, a single household earning $50,000. The household’s average tax rate under the current system is 21.1%. It’s 16.2 % under the FairTax.”
Again, to those in favor of FairTax, as well as those sitting on the sidelines taking potshots, I recommend actually reading the bill (H.R. 25) as well as reading the analyses from all sides. It is a truly amazing proposal, in my opinion – one that could help get America – to quote Savoy Brown – off the Hellbound Train we are now riding at an ever-accelerating pace.
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By: PFesser on April 19, 2011
at 4:09 AM
I love you. That is all.
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By: FG on April 18, 2011
at 4:18 PM
Craig –
I wanted to mention something but got so wrapped up in my own problems that I forgot:
We see more blood clots in the lungs of cancer patients serendipitously – those getting CT scans for other reasons – than we do in patients from the ER who are being CT’d specifically to rule out a pulmonary embolus. So if Val gets suddenly short of breath or has swelling in her legs – especially just ONE leg, make sure her doc knows PDQ.
Jim
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By: PFesser on April 18, 2011
at 4:14 PM
Tammyharper –
I am slowly working my way through the Neal Boortz books on the Fair Tax. He deals with the questions of “black market” and all the other objections. I highly recommend the two books: “The Fair Tax Book” and “Fair Tax: The Truth.”
It is truly amazing to see the background behind this proposal. Basically, it is a plan that has been invented and refined by non-partisan experts who all agree that the current system is dragging the United States down the tubes. While none of these people have an axe to grind, those who oppose it certainly do – which is to say a loss of income and power – and they are fighting with every means possible – yes, amazingly, lies too.
Before really weighing in, I want to finish the two books above. It is an amazing, amazing idea – one that would, as I see it so far, be a tremendous advantage to the whole country – and, once and for all, assuring that those multibillionaires who pay no taxes would finally begin to pay their “fair share.”
BTW, nice to see spirited argument on this page again. A good example, IMHO, that sometimes things improve by having more people, sometimes by fewer.
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By: PFesser on April 18, 2011
at 4:09 PM
NOP, yes, war is theoretically shared responsibility, but the realty is different. Shared sacrifice is just a cluster of pretty words to trick the few willing risk their lives for the rest of us. None of our wars with the possible exception of WW11 when we fought for our national lives featured shared responsibility or sacrifice.
Bush’s asking the rest of us to go shopping was part of a stimulus plan from the bottom up. Our economy was reeling from the effects of a recession exacerbated by 9/11. Members of Obama’s administration said we needed consumption to bring us out of our recession. They were rooting for good Christmas sales while we were still at war. I fail to see the difference.
My government wants to expropriate even more of the money my wife and I earned to waste on more profligacy. That is not shared sacrifice. It is government sanctioned theft.
No disrespect intended from this post, NOP, because you know I like what I know of you. However, “shared responsibility” revives bitterness from my past.
“Freedom what did you hope to learn about here
If I was somewhere else
would this all fall apart?
Strange, where were you
when we started this gig?”
Matchbook 20
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By: James on April 18, 2011
at 2:01 PM
This is why the fair tax is better and something like it will make things much better.
(Newser) – Some Tax Day trivia: The super rich are paying a far lower tax rate than they did 20 years ago, and nearly half of all US households—including both rich and poor—pay no taxes at all. People with the 400 highest adjusted gross incomes paid nearly $345 million in taxes in 2007, the most recent year figures are available. Their average federal income tax rate was 17%, down from 26% in 1992, reports AP. During that same period, the average tax rate for all taxpayers dipped to 9.3% from 9.9%.
Though the top income tax rate is 35%, myriad tax breaks shave that bite. “It’s the fact that we are using the tax code both to collect revenue, which is its primary purpose, and to deliver these spending benefits that we run into the situation where so many people are paying no taxes,”said an expert with the think tank Tax Policy Center in DC. More than half of the nation’s tax revenue came from the top 10% of earners in 2007, and more than 44% came from the top 5%.
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By: tammyharper on April 18, 2011
at 12:48 PM
Bill Maher has never been terribly bright, and though he has a niche audience which has made him a rich man, the audience is superficial and shallow. HBO material – like some washed out comics does make one an authority of anything but Barnum’s principle.
But assuming Maher is right and the “other asshole’s tax cut and war costs included”, then Barack Obama has indeed proven himself an incredibly stupid and irresponsible man.
Because Obama has not only adopted the Bush Doctrine of which he adamantly campaigned against, but increased in Afghanistan troop deployment to well over 90,000, then chose to bomb a third Muslim country in the process. And it is Barack Obama and the progressives here and elsewhere who are not only claiming but using as argument, “Barack Obama cut everyone’s taxes!!!!” So Barack Obama has provided more of the same, not less.
Like I said Bill Maher is a lightweight and only appealing to those incapable of critical thought who enjoy rank partisan humor.
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By: Wayne Perram on April 18, 2011
at 11:50 AM
Agree with some of what you said James, like we look for our own truth. But Bill Maher is right, you don’t give tax cuts when you go to war and if you go to war, you pay for it. War is a shared responsibility, you don’t send our young men and women off to be potentially killed or maimed and ask the rest of us to go shopping.
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By: No one's puppet on April 18, 2011
at 10:26 AM
No ones’ Puppet, my wife and I tried to extend our stay in England by another year, but the United States wouldn’t let us.
Bill Maher is wrong. Democrats and Republicans gave us a big deficit, but now it belongs to the Democrats. They are borrowing so much they make Bush look stingy.
“GET A MEMORY, PEOPLE!” bears repeating. “The truth is out there” if we look.
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By: James on April 18, 2011
at 9:58 AM
Thanks Wayne Perram. I hope you stay for awhile.
No one’s puppet, I agree factcheck is not extremely biased, but it is to a point, sometimes through nuance. I don’t read it very often, but I remember seeing things which weren’t quite right. As you know “facts” in the twilight of truth will be accepted or rejected according to political ideology or other reader’s bias. What looks like a true fact check to you may not to me.
I did some research for you and also me. Yahoo Finance explains some things about war funding. The costs of Vietnam, Korea, and similar wars was included in regular budgets. As we know, Congress has paid for recent wars through emergency supplemental bills.
The total bill for the Afghanistan and Iraqi wars is $1.5 trillion. In 1969 at the height of the Vietnam war, the budget increased from $27 billion to $79 billion. However, when war costs were subtracted, the defense budget had actually declined by 29%.
The Bush administration adopted another way to fund the wars. It gave the Pentagon over $1 trillion in supplementals and let the base budget rise. The Pentagon was able to shift items like fighters from the base budget into the supplemental.
Since the administration says we won’t put troops in Libya that war can still be paid from the general budget.
“But if Congress and the administration choose to go outside the regular defense budget to fund it, they should learn the lessons of the past decade and offset the full amount of the supplemental through cuts in the regular fiscal year 2012.”
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By: James on April 18, 2011
at 9:40 AM
I have just one thing to say and it is important, so I’m going to shout it. GET A MEMORY PEOPLE!
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By: No one's puppet on April 18, 2011
at 9:31 AM
NOP the one thing we can take solace in is the People are beginning to awaken. Thank the dear heavens!
This new poll shows the most people have become aware that most of the GOP/Tpers/conservative’s agenda to eliminate the middle class and/ or “minorities” in this country and have resoundly rejected that principle.
Yay us our message IS being heard through all the noise!
Just let them dig their own grave……The truth shall overcome. 😉
As far as the battle of economical numbers and trying to make heads or tails out of them…… forget it. The spin is the spin, and you will find good and bad in each set of numbers, each web site.
All we can do is look to the motivation of the two sides. For me and apparently 52 percent of the nation, one has to look no further. Who is going to get us to tomorrow? Who is going to meet this new global economical challenge, who has the intelligence and foresight to get us where we need to be…The Democrats… But it’s up to each to decide if they will vote against their own interest orrrrrrr not.
BTW Happy Passover to all our Jewish friends!
namaste’
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By: lori on April 18, 2011
at 9:27 AM
In the immortal of Bill Maher of 15 April, 2011 spoken to Michael Steel, former Chairman of the GOP, Obama of course has a larger budget, because he has “that other asshole’s tax cut and war costs to include” (paraphrasing).
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By: No one's puppet on April 18, 2011
at 9:27 AM
On Thursday Wisconsin conservatives announced that they had collected enough signatures to recall Senator Dave Hansen of Green Bay.
Last week, vandals broke in and stole computers and recall petitions from a Wisconsin office. I think we can add that to tammyharper’s count down.
Here is another lesson:
Stanly Kurtz explained some of the reasons for the recession. Our government pressured banks to loan housing money to minorities and others who were at risk because of their low incomes. Congress passed a well-intentioned red lining law to prevent banks from discriminating against potential home owners because of their race or social status.
The numbers were small during the first years.
The early nineties savings and loan scandal killed some banks and caused survivors to merge. Organizations like ACORN and Jesse Jackson’s groups used the turmoil to persuade banks to issue more risky loans. They protested and blackmailed banks into loaning more money to the poor. Obama helped train ACORN organizers and did some legal work for them.
Government officials visited banks and looked at the books to be sure they were loaning a set percentage to the poor.
Financial institutions bought and sold the loans and mixed the good with the bad. Foreign traders and banks bought the new creations. They made a lot of money, because too many people bid values to unstainable levels. They believed the laws of economics had been repealed.
Bush and the Republicans had an interest in home ownership too because of their belief that owning one’s home gave the family a stake in the economy. However, they did warn about risky management and loans, but the Democrats discounted the warnings.
The bubble burst and all financial creations were suspect because the bad were comingled with the good.
Public service workers, of whom my wife is one, didn’t cause the crash. However, their leaders have negotiated unsustainable pensions and benefits which some of them will never see. It was a problem with the two now government auto workers, it is a problem in Wisconsin and many other states. We are headed into a perfect storm.
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By: James on April 18, 2011
at 9:11 AM
Excellent post James. As recently as last week, the WSJ published that we could have taken 100% of the 2009 federal taxable income of everyone making over 100K a year, and it would not have paid for Barack Obama’s 2010 federal budget.
This myth of soaking the rich, and everyone will note how rich is quickly being defined downward, of paying for all entitlements is bogus and really bad math.
Worse, it makes the assumption that higher taxes would have no bearing on the decisions of employers and those that actually create wealth and jobs.
Progressive politics and Keynesian economics has now been tried for three years and the policies have failed miserably. When almost one out of two people pay no federal taxes but receive the disproportional share of the entitlement benefits, then critical mass has been reached.
Every wage earner should be forced to pay some federal taxes and share in the pain – rich and poor alike. It is the only fair means to sustain an honest election.
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By: Wayne Perram on April 18, 2011
at 9:10 AM
Actually James, fact check doesn’t seem biased to me, as I have read many bloopers, misspoken, and misleading things about the Democrats on their website. I must admit, I am always disappointed when I do. I do agree with you about a value added tax, as I don’t think we doing much in the way of value adding, this is definitely one of many areas this country needs to work on. We are going to have to do some changes to Social Security and Medicare to assure future generations of their availability, fortunately or unfortunately people are living longer and the means by which lifespans have increased is quite expensive in some cases. I would very much like to say, after two weeks in London and Paris, that we are far more advanced and that our life style was so much better than theirs…, but I can’t say that. In fact, I see more minuses in our country and our lifestyle than I would have ever imagined, in comparison to G B and France.
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By: No one's puppet on April 18, 2011
at 9:06 AM
My goodness, the site has been active during my absence. Yes, fact check is biased.
Betsy’s page cited the Wall Street Journal’s numbers. They compared 2005, a “boom year” after the tax cuts and 2008. In 2005, when more tax money was available, the top 5% earned over $145,000. All income from people earning over $200,000 per year would yield about $1.89 trillion, enough money to pay for Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security in 2010, but not for 2016 because their costs will rise quickly.
2008 provided $5.65 trillion in taxable income from all individual taxpayers, and most of it came from the middle class. So, anyone who says we can support our spending by taking more from the rich is lying to us. Earlier, Nancy Pelosi mused about using a European style value added tax which is largely invisible and as regressive as a fair tax.
45% of the population pays little or no income tax. This debate has no apparent connection to them, now. Taxing the rich sounds good to them. When the customers out number the producers, we have a problem. That, tammyharper, is why though I oppose it, I have any favorable thoughts toward the fair tax. Suppose we tax the rich and middle class while continuing our profligate ways. Eventually, nothing will suffice to pay the bills.
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By: James on April 18, 2011
at 8:45 AM
Love it Elsie! Thank you for reminding me.
Consider this as well!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/18/tax-cuts-rich_n_848933.html
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By: lori on April 18, 2011
at 8:43 AM
Elsie, class dismissed.
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By: tammyharper on April 18, 2011
at 8:24 AM
No, but what I do remember and continue to observe is our public school systems dismal and failing, public employee incompetence from paving to post office while making almost 40% more than their private counterparts, 50,000,000 legalized abortions, most preying on the poor, and a question irrelevant to the creation of wealth having nothing to do with someone’s 401K.
So this is what I see of the last two years of a progressives agenda in action…
Many of those public employees called politicians added $15,500 to the burden owed by each American family, a Medicare System which will be bankrupt in nine years wrought with fraud estimated at over 20%, over $6 trillion spent on the continuation of the LBJ Great Society which has given America multi-generational welfare, public housing more dangerous than Tripoli or Beirut, and 74% of black children born out of wedlock, etc. Perhaps even more dangerous, because of Barack Obama’s outrageously incompetent fiscal policies, S&P just today of announcing USA outlook to negative. I’m afraid “it’s George Bush’s fault” has run its course and progressives have also been judged negative, as in massive failure.
But the kicker? All that you’ve listed Elsie? I don’t see any net wealth created from a one of them, no job creation. I see a lot of give me give me. I see a lot of overpriced or free services paid for by John Q. Public, though but little or no benefit to society overall. I see pandering and buying votes, corruption and no transparency. I think the U.S. public made it very apparent what they thought of the idiocy, immorality, and illegitimacy of progressive politic in Nov. 2010.
By the way, Big Oil, the progressive bogeyman pays well over 40% in tax revenue.
http://www.tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/MSUN-8DVR7U?OpenDocument
How much did Planned Parenthood or NPR pay again? I think it is fair to say at best with America’s test scores dropping the last 40 years, at best we can give public teachers overall a grade of “D-“. Some teachers are wonderful – but I’m afraid far more are of the quality of the Wisconsin protesters, more interested in their bennies than they are in teaching children. That much is readily apparent.
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By: Wayne Perram on April 18, 2011
at 8:00 AM
Hey, Helen, Margaret, NOP, Lori and other Progressive friends…
Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took billions in TARP money, spewed vast amounts of oil and Corexit into the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid NO taxes?
Yeah. Me neither.
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By: Elsie on April 18, 2011
at 7:14 AM
The Tax Policy Center report is quite interesting, if we have any economists in our midst, or just a good researcher, perhaps they can answer my question. Have the George W. Bush’s budgets been retrofitted to include the cost of the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars? It appears they have not. As we all are aware, or should be aware, the Bush Administration never included these costs in their budgets, in layman’s term they put those costs on a credit card, and the worst of if was they never made any payments on that credit card. That all changed then President Obama took office, the cost of out continuing efforts in both of these countries is included in the budget, as well as the interest cost. Now we know the true financial cost of these military actions and we also know these costs are not going to be paid for by Iraqi oil, no folks, we are going pay these bills. It was pointed out this morning on Morning Joe, that for the same amount of money spent on these two wars, America could of had infrastructure and job growth on the scale of the Eisenhower Administration.
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By: No one's puppet on April 18, 2011
at 7:05 AM
Good morning friends!
For your veiwing pleasure:
The President discusses his plan for our fiscal future, a comprehensive and balanced approach to achieve $4 trillion in deficit reduction over twelve years.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/04/16/weekly-address-america-s-fiscal-future
enjoy your day all!
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By: lori on April 18, 2011
at 4:28 AM
only missed one thing in your post Wayne Perram
lori, class dismissed.
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By: tammyharper on April 17, 2011
at 4:52 PM
FactCheck is a liberal propagandist tool masquerading as unbiased and objective, no doubt receiving George Soros funds. In other words, a carnival joke.
Here are the facts as published Tax Policy Center – the published record. You will note, even adjusted for inflation, U.S. Federal tax revenue was never than under George Bush in fiscal year 2007.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=200
It is fair to criticize George Bush for his spending policies, which were atrocious. Jimmy Carter aka Barack Obama has taken the dismal spending record to new heights and will soon be walked to the curb as the worst President in U.S. history, surpassing Jimmy Carter. It remains to be seen if BO can surpass Carter as the worst ex-President too.
I’m afraid Lori, you’re leftist sites have let you down again. I know you’ll appreciate the record being “straightened out” as truth imperative when we tackle Obama’s massive debt and incompetence, as this site appears to be mostly leftist dogma and even you progressives are going further into debt, though I doubt you understand its ramifications yet.
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By: Wayne Perram on April 17, 2011
at 4:36 PM
well lori if you can’t post thoughts of your own…posting that of others comes in a close 2nd place.
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By: tammyharper on April 17, 2011
at 3:20 PM
Ever wondered where your tax dollars went?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/taxreceipt
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By: lori on April 17, 2011
at 2:57 PM
Very funny. but the T-PEErs will never get the message. Too many words of more than two syllables.
Yeah, that’s why they killed Obama in the last election…because Obama is brilliant.
This Lori appears like a rank KKKos propagandist. See you at the polls Lori. 🙂
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By: Wayne Perram on April 17, 2011
at 2:40 PM
LORI:
Very funny. but the T-PEErs will never get the message. Too many words of more than two syllables.
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By: Anonymous on April 17, 2011
at 2:30 PM
This is cute. It tickled my funny bone (in a sick feeling kind of way) on this glorious Sunday afternoon.
The Gop (T people or whatever they are coalling themselves these days) the party of no we can’t … anymore.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/17/965571/-No-We-Cant
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By: lori on April 17, 2011
at 2:13 PM
their=they’re
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By: tammyharper on April 17, 2011
at 11:23 AM
A little deeper than your used to No one’s puppet . To stick to an ideal. Unlike the Liberal party, I do not have an overpowering need to convert others to my ideology, to each their own. I can work with anyone, as long as their consistent. I do not always agree with the Republicans, but at least they are consistent in what they believe in, knowing that I can deal with that. Liberals however seem to hold onto their beliefs when it suits their purpose, and when it doesn’t, out the window they go. I would never turn my back on a Liberal because as soon as it furthered their agenda, they would sell me down the river in a second.
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By: tammyharper on April 17, 2011
at 11:18 AM
The take from the poor, give to the rich party, Tammy?
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By: No one's puppet on April 17, 2011
at 9:46 AM
lori, I find it interesting the gop denounced the email, yet when a Dem did it to a Republican they did not. Again while I have issues with both parties, I would rather deal with the party that sticks to their ideals.
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By: tammyharper on April 17, 2011
at 9:23 AM
NOP, Facts about the Bush tax cuts and creating jobs:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/10/09/624773/-Republican-Myth:-Tax-CutsGrowth-(chart)
And a look at the job growth (Obama vs Bush) chart:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_05/023691.php
There are 1000 of sources pick the one you want, these have been checked by factcheck..
namaste
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By: lori on April 17, 2011
at 5:12 AM
ut oh caught again,
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/16/marilyn-davenports-racist_n_850063.html
Yet another T party activist shows their true colors.
“Davenport, a tea party activist, represents the 72nd Assembly District in Orange County on the central committee.
She represents Brea, Placentia, Fullerton and portions of other Orange County cities to the county committee tasked with fundraising, campaigning and debating policy for the Republican Party.”
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By: lori on April 17, 2011
at 4:59 AM
James, What do you think would be worse with the fair tax than what we have now? What shortcomings do you foresee that would outweigh what would be gained and be worse than what we have now?
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By: tammyharper on April 16, 2011
at 5:57 PM
NOP, Bush didn’t create a single private sector job. The economy did. All the government did was change conditions which might or might not be favorable to job growth. I agree, many were worse than previous jobs. You might have also mentioned Wal Mart or for computer executives, real estate sales too.
Obama’s efforts have had mixed results too. A television report showed him celebrating new jobs at McDonalds. I think globalization played a role in the growth of low paying job numbers. As Obama said in Detroit, I think. Many of these well-paying jobs are gone for good.
Tammyharper, I agree in principle, and such a tax may be inevitable, but it does seem harsh. It might be altered a bit to make it more fair.
I’m sorry to you both for being distracted. We are leaving for an anniversary party in a few minutes, and I’m not ready because our son and I were on the phone for three hours.
After the phone battery went dead, a woman involved with our recent successful counter- law suit called to tell me a newspaper ran a libelous story about the sordid affair. Our lawyer will be speaking to the chair of our arts organization within an hour. She didn’t tell me what was in the column, but the tone of her voice inplies another lawsuit. My wife wondered if it included the near violent altercation she helped diffuse. We’ve been waiting for the other shoe to drop. Now, it has.
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By: James on April 16, 2011
at 2:37 PM
I guess my point to the fair tax is that it is the best equalizer and all inclusive tax plan I have seen proposed. If you spend money in this economy you contribute. That is so far from the case now. I think this would be the biggest move in the right direction of anything I have ever seen. We can tweak it and work out the bugs but I see no reason to stick with what we have now over the few negatives this idea introduces. Business as usual just isn’t acceptable to an ever growing number of Americans.
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By: tammyharper on April 16, 2011
at 1:17 PM
James, Bush created service industry jobs, aka McDonald, minimum wage, no benefits.
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By: No one's puppet on April 16, 2011
at 10:14 AM
Cousinearl216 put his top ten NASCAR finishes on you tube and used Match Box 20’s “How Far We’ve Come.” I don’t know what Rob Thomas’ political philosophy is, but the words describe our future if we don’t work together to solve our problems.
“I believe the world is burning to the ground
Oh well, I guess we’re gonna find out
Lets see how far we’ve gone
I believe its all coming to an end
Oh well, we’re gonna pretend
We can turn to the clock
but I don’t really know
and I don’t remember caring
for more than an hour or so…
I started running
but there’s nowhere to run to
Gone gone, baby its all gone
Now its over for me
and its over for you.”
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By: James on April 16, 2011
at 8:49 AM
We have Firefox, No ones’ Puppet. It is faster. Thanks for mentioning it. I’m still not used to our faster internet service.
Tammyharper, you made some good points, but it is still a regressive tax. For example, during the hard times, our farm paid for supplies, but we were allowed to deduct part of the cost. With a flat sales tax, all of that money would have been gone. We would not have been able to deduct our property taxes, land and house payments or interest on our loan. At one point, we were close to $500,000.00 in debt, so forgiveness of our loan payment was akin to extra income. We would not have survived under a fair tax. Now, that we are financially comfortable, we would survive. That is why I feel like a hypocrite to consider the tax.
I still oppose it, but less strongly because a fair tax might demonstrate to us all how dependent we are on our recycled tax dollars. We all want tax reform and lowered deficits, but few of us will surrender our benefits, subsidies and tax breaks.
Robert J. Samuelson put the benefits into two categories, each resistant to change. Social Security, the mortgage deduction, “who’s benefits are so large that any hint of cuts prompts massive opposition…” The second encompasses smaller programs such as Amtrack, ethanol subsidies and others which are less expensive but which “inspire a fanatical devotion from their supporters.”
For all of its faults, a fair tax might engage people who don’t earn enough to pay income taxes. They might give more attention to what our government is doing. Illegal aliens would certainly pay their fair share of taxes. Corporations will not pay more taxes. We, their customers will pay.
I haven’t paid much attention to the fair tax, so I may have misunderstood its implications.
We have to change our big programs or we will not survive as the country we know.
“Ryan’s plan would ultimately gut defense and some valuable domestic programs; it wouldn’t reach balance until about 2040.
Compared to Democrats, however, Ryan is a model of intellectual rigor and political courage. Under this budgets thus far, Obama would run huge deficits from now to eternity. The Congressional Budget Office has projected $12.2 trillion of added debt from 2010 to 2011…Obama… has denied unappealing choices…” I believe the Congressional Budget Office calculated that our economy will be unstainable after 2037.
If politicians can demagogue an honest attempt to alter and save our social programs for political advantage, we are already lost.
A fair tax may be like experimental chemotherapy. Will it do more harm than good?
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By: James on April 16, 2011
at 8:24 AM
Interesting about the Russians, No one’s Puppet. Didn’t a Russian buy what was listed as the world’s most expensive house somewhere in the world?
A Wall Street Journal showed over three million new jobs were created during the Bush administration compared to twenty-three million during the Clinton administration. The number of Clinton era jobs was beginning to dwindle as the dot com bubble burst around 2000, but its effects were felt later.
Obama said “if not for my stimulus, it would be much worse.” Bush could say the same about his tax cut.
No one can quantify reasons the jobs were created. “The number of jobs created” is misleading and irrelevant. It is also impossible to conclusively demonstrate. However, the unemployment rate was less than five per cent at times during the Bush years until 2006. Employers were hiring anyone with a pulse. Now, employers face a surfeit of job seekers. Our nearly 9% unemployment rate is lower than it actually is because so many job seekers have given up or have taken part time employment.
An honest comparison of the employment numbers shows that things were better during the Bush administration because of or in spite of him. What happened in 2006? Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid took control of Congress and the new election cycle dominated.
I could say they caused the changes in 2006, but that would be as unfair as saying no jobs were created during the Bush administration.
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By: James on April 16, 2011
at 7:31 AM
Here is some more advice, for anyone, who wants to try it. Google Mozilla Firefox, put it on your computer and use it instead of Internet Explorer to get online. It is faster.
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By: No one's puppet on April 16, 2011
at 7:13 AM
No One’s Puppet, I saved the page from yesterday, to avoid a long load up time, so I don’t know what if anything follows.
Everything you wrote about the drawbacks of a fair tax is true. It is why I wrote I felt hypocritical to consider supporting it. I don’t support it now. My opposition is just less strong. It is also a regressive tax because the poor spend a higher proportion of their incomes on necessities.
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By: James on April 16, 2011
at 6:51 AM
It has been Lori, it is now part of the public record, the Republicans want to bleed grandma dry. It ain’t going to happen, the people have got the Tea Party and their Republican conspirators’ number now, Nationally, as well as in Wisconsin. We need diversity of opinion in this country, as well as in any democracy, the Republican Party needs to regroup and let “the moral majority” howl in the wilderness, where they won’t disturb anyone.
Where are all those jobs, Bush’s tax reduction created? Oh that’s right, there were none! This so called fair tax won’t create jobs, as a matter of fact it will destroy jobs; tax preparers-gone, tourism-gone, and international trade-collapsed. So actually, it is a joke to even discuss a national sales tax. It isn’t going to happen, save the discussion for the kooks.
Incidentally, last Saturday in London, I went on a tour, just a small group of us, we passed new buildings, our tour guide said, the flats were going for a average price of 5 and a 1/2 million pounds and that most of the purchasers were Russian. Thought you might want to know who has all the money.
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By: No one's puppet on April 16, 2011
at 6:48 AM
NOP… fair tax = one more step towards the alienation of the middle class. What is that saying about putting lipstick on a pig? LOL LOL
Indeed it is a good week for democrats! They don’t come often and when they dooooo Imma gonna milk it for all it’s worth!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/16/967467/-Rasmussen-Reports:-Dems-Have-Realistic-Chance-of-Retaking-House
The new face of America! Things to come. 😉
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/04/americas-new-electorate/73317/
Last but not least the GOP has put in motion their plan to gut medicare … Yippie!!!!Their strongest base..(old white people) will be tickled pink with this platform! NOT…. I can’t think of a better way to kick off the 2012 season…! Indeed it’s been a good week.
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By: lori on April 16, 2011
at 6:14 AM
James, I guess I have either the wrong understanding or a different understanding of the fair tax. You only get taxed when you spend money on something. This closes all the loopholes that people use to avoid taxes. It does not raise taxes, its a raise in pay. Since we are not getting a tax of any other kind, everyone instantly gets about a 20% increase in pay right away. If you work 40 hours at $10 an hour you take home $400.00, not the $300-$320 you take home now. That money is yours and stays yours until you go to the store and spend it.
I understand the concern about black market and such, but do you really think that compares to what corporations and the rich are doing now to avoid paying their share? The only thing they can do under this system is not spend their money, because as soon as they do, they get taxed the same as everyone else, thus the term fair tax. If overnight the rich and corporations getting taxed 20+% of their money isn’t a significant improvement over what is going on today then by all means show me. This doesn’t bury the poor, this saves them. The increased revenue from the wealthy paying a “true fair share” would fund all kinds of social programs to help those that need it.
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By: tammyharper on April 16, 2011
at 5:20 AM
I’m standing somewhere between PFessor and No one’s puppet. I don’t think the poor would be reduced to eating dog food, but I agree with NOP that as when we were struggling, the poor could suffer disproportionally.
Raising taxes on earned income during a recession is a bad idea if we want small businesses to prosper and create new jobs.
We should demand that upper end millionaires and billionaires pay more taxes on their assets such as stocks, bonds, capital gains, and other refuges for their estates. The Kennedy family, Kerry family, Warren Buffet, and Bill Gates, for example could pay more taxes on their sheltered wealth than they do. That’s where the real money is.
Even so, if we expropriated all of their wealth, we would still be in a world of hurt. The very and less rich don’t have enough money to make more than a down payment on our debt.
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By: James on April 15, 2011
at 11:32 PM
Typically, James, you’d have to pay full taxes on your fuel; in addition to sales tax on your fertilizer, seed, pesticides, and equipment. Still looking good to you? There would be so much bartering and the potential of a black market would exist to avoid taxes, nope it just won’t work. And once again the burden would be on the poor and middle class.
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By: No one's puppet on April 15, 2011
at 10:45 PM
PFessor and NOP, the British are an odd people. I can say that because my Danish ancestors became British for seven hundred years or so, and I lived there for two years .
Yes, we watch all of the comedies. “Are You Being Served?” is also a staple on Iowa Public Television, though it is almost 40 years old. I like Fawlty Towers too.
When he was young, Marty Feldman had his own television show, I think. One of his most memorable skits was when he gently held a butterfly on the palm of his hand. He peered at it with his big eyes and asked “Little Butterfly, do you want to see God?” SPLAT!!!
Mrs. Bucket is funny. She gets her poor husband in terrible scrapes. Onslo is my favorite character.
Our son gave me a DVD of Benny Hill shows.
The Canadian I like is Red Green.
My wife and I also like British singers. My wife turns up the radio whenever they play an Adel song. I like Duffy and Cold Play too.
Yes, I am familiar with the fair tax and its cousins. I opposed it when we were having hard times on the farm because we needed the deductions to survive. Now, like you, I am becoming more favorably disposed to it. I feel a little hypocritical.
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By: James on April 15, 2011
at 8:59 PM
The so called “fair tax” sounds like a sure way to further impoverish the elderly and the poor. They have no discretionary income now, therefore they would be reduced to eating cat and dog food. What is wrong with expecting, even demanding, that millionaires and billionaires pay their fair share of taxes?
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By: No one's puppet on April 15, 2011
at 7:58 PM
jsri opined:
“OMG I’ve been taken to the woodshed by someone courageous enough to post as Anonymous. Sort of makes my argument.”
No it doesn’t.
We’re ALL anonymous. PFesser is no different from Anonymous or anon or suzi. When someone reads your posts, it doesn’t make any difference whether you call yourself jsri or jism – nobody has the slightest idea (or interest, really) in who that is. Using jsri as a handle is no more courageous than calling yourself “anonymous” or “SuziSpankMe.”
(Which, now that I think about it, might be better anyway, because you are always getting your ass whipped.)
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By: PFesser on April 15, 2011
at 4:23 PM
“Interesting link delurkergurl found: “12 Tax-Dodging Corporations Spent $1 Billion To Influence Washington Over The Last Decade”
Elsie – I think I read somewhere last week that 50% of the public pays 97% of the taxes. That doesn’t seem right, since we all get the benefits.
I’ve been reading about the Fair Tax. Pretty interesting. It is a national sales tax of about 23%, but all other taxes are eliminated. So when you buy something you see exactly how much tax you are paying. The withholding (the way they do it now) allows the govt to get and use your money for a whole year and pay no interest, and also hides from you your real tax bill. In addition it is just one of many taxes. The Fair Tax would collect the same amount of total tax (it is revenue neutral) and eliminate the IRS and the 100,000 people who work there would be displaced to other jobs that actually do something useful. Ditto the hundreds of thousands of accountants who do people’s taxes and the tax lawyers who work to help people dodge taxes. I haven’t done my own taxes since 1979.
The real kicker is that it would completely eliminate tax-dodging. If you buy something you pay a tax; if you are a saver, you don’t. It gets the churches (now paying basically nothing on their investment income); it taxes the illegal drug money (now out of the purview of the IRS.) What’s not to like?
Every year the govt will send a cheque to everybody to pay all the tax up to poverty level, so poor folks will pay no taxes on anything up to the poverty limit, then pay after that.
The more I read, the more I like it. Are you familiar?
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By: PFesser on April 15, 2011
at 4:13 PM
And guys, have you watched Keeping Up Appearances, Coupling, or Father Ted? I like them all.
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By: No one's puppet on April 15, 2011
at 4:10 PM
James –
re: British comedy. Have you ever seen Fawlty Towers? For some reason, John Cleese has a direct line to my funny bone; I have had to leave the room to catch my breath sometimes.
Ditto Marty Feldman. Benny Hill was pretty good, but always very juvenile.
I think a taste for British humour takes a little cultivating; it was always a little puzzling to me until I got the hang of it. Now I can’t get enough.
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By: PFesser on April 15, 2011
at 3:56 PM
Steven Colbert skewers the GOP and Fox news:
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/381282/april-11-2011/pap-smears-at-walgreens
Even Colbert couldn’t get through it without laughing.
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By: PFesser on April 15, 2011
at 3:50 PM
My wife can’t stand dial up because she has faster service at school. I’m used to it, but having faster service at home is akin to our first VCR to me.
Up to 16 inches of snow closed part of I 80 between North Platte and Wyoming. Some places are without power as the snow combined with 50 MPH wind gusts take down tree limbs and power lines.
Now, it is snowing here with huge wet flakes and wind. Boy Scouts chose this weekend to camp in the Scout Ranch. I’m glad I didn’t put my skis away.
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By: James on April 15, 2011
at 2:46 PM
Dial-up is pretty much a relic of a bygone era, I am far too impatient for it.
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By: No one's puppet on April 15, 2011
at 9:09 AM
I sometimes tell my wife the same thing, No one’s puppet, but I don’t yell.
I thought Ace of Base, the Scandinavian band was defunct in the nineties, but thanks to you tube, I learned last night that they are still singing.
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By: James on April 15, 2011
at 6:32 AM
“YOU WERE RIGHT, NOP!!!”
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By: James on April 15, 2011
at 6:28 AM
Please write soon, Helen and Margaret!
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By: Mary on April 15, 2011
at 4:45 AM
From Auntie Jean!
http://blog.cagle.com/2011/04/its-time-to-play-ball/
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By: lori on April 15, 2011
at 4:40 AM
James, okay, say it, I was right. Of course to both of your questions; I took the train, went to Paris and back to London, plus to Rennes from Paris and back, and most important the daffodils were blooming when I got to London and were still blooming when I left. Tell me again James, “you were right, NOP.”
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By: No one's puppet on April 14, 2011
at 9:32 PM
WOW! What a great post! I just noticed that it is quite dated. I hope you are planning more!
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By: marylou on April 14, 2011
at 8:29 PM
No One’s Puppet,
I agree about foreign languages. One of our teachers taught us a little Spanish when I was in fourth grade, but she was just free- lancing. Europeans secretly looked down on Americans and Canadians because so few of us were multi- language speakers. I’d pay higher property taxes for language courses too.
My family came from Wales. While we were visiting the region, I noticed when a bloke entered a shop, the natives spoke in Galic because they didn’t like British.
My wife and I love British comedy too. Have you ever seen “Are You Being Served?” It was so popular in Iowa that surviving cast members traveled here during fund raisers. I miss the British documentaries too. Entertainment television was quirky and funny. One show, Top of the Pops ran for many years, and it may still be playing.
Big Bang Theory is also one of my favorite television shows.
Did you have a chance to ride a British or French train?
I’d have been scared to lose my debit, insurance and medicare cards too. Did you have to have duplicates made? My aunt fell down a flight of stairs and broke her hip. The British system paid for almost everything, though I don’t know of they are as generous with foreigners now.
I forgot the Olympics. The British must be busy and excited.
We know about their earlier cold winter. Are the dafodills in bloom yet?
You don’t realize, you have helped create a monster. Earlier, I wrote that I don’t assume I will survive to the beginning of another season when one ends. As a result, I tackle what interests me with exhuberance.
You suggested several times that since we can afford it we should buy a fast internet connection. We finally did, and that is why youtube has besotted me.
Here is little gift for putting up with my questions. You probably won’t bother to look, but at least you know the thought is well-meaning.
Google Ricky Craven and Kurt Busch Darlington Race 2003 you tube, or something like that. One of the commentators is a retired driver and another a retired crew chief. Their excitement is as entertaining as the last two laps of the race.
Another is Top Ten NASCAR finishes (cousinearl216) with Match Book Twenty’s “How Far We’ve Come as the sound track.
2004 Atlanta Jimmie Johnson’s emotional win.
One week before, ten members of the Hendricks Motor Sports company, family and sponsors died in a plane crash.
As you probably know, the NASCAR organization is highly religious, and members donate a lot of money to charity. The Hendricks Motor Sports company holds weekly Bible study. Hence, the references to God and angels.
Bet you regret suggesting we get fast computer service so many times…
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By: James on April 14, 2011
at 4:02 PM
ouch, jsri’s been spanked
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By: tammyharper on April 14, 2011
at 3:05 PM
and what argument is that? you make no arguments jsri. just wah wah pfesser wah wah james wah wah interlopers wah wah everyobody left cuzza them wah wah i’m outa here. ad nauseum. i’m not trying to make light of senility but please stop with the whining already. we get it. you hate them. we don’t care.
you’re anonymous too dufus. what difference does it make if i string 4 letters together that mean something to me or not? you are so predictable. and so hip with the omg. what’s next o to the m to the g?
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By: Anonymous on April 14, 2011
at 1:42 PM
My limitation? You mean like not being able to have situational ethics like you and your ilk? Not being able to turn off my morality when it suits my needs? Yes I find myself often limited because I have this dammed notion everyone is equal and deserving of the same fair treatment.
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By: tammyharper on April 14, 2011
at 1:20 PM
Anonymous on April 14, 2011 at 10:50 AM
OMG I’ve been taken to the woodshed by someone courageous enough to post as Anonymous. Sort of makes my argument.
TammyHopper
Those are beliefs that get put into practice daily. Sorry you don’t recognize them but I understand your limitations.
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By: jsri on April 14, 2011
at 1:01 PM
James, I took Spanish, but my Spanish is about as good as my tourist French phrases, all two or three of them I memorized for my trip. I wish, foreign languages were taught in primary school, while the children’s brains are developing language skills. And ultra liberal that I am, I’d be willing to pay higher taxes for it. I watched a lot of BBC news and Skye News while in France, turned over to CNN a couple of times, just to find out they were still congratulating themselves for the reporter who traveled 10 days to get a interview with the mother of the rape victim in Libya. Well hip hip hooray CNN, you aren’t part of the story! I watch a lot of British comedy and drama already, James, on PBS and BBC America, so I didn’t watch much entertainment television while I was there. However while I was recouping from a bunch of stairs, I caught a couple of episodes of an American show I’d never seen before, The Big Bang, CBS. I tend to never watch network television, I highly recommended this show it is really clever and funny.
While I was in Paris, I lost my debit, credit, insurance, and Medicare cards. I had cash and my Passport so I wasn’t down and out, but I was concerned, what if I got ill or had and accident. Then it occurred to me, France and England have socialized medicine, what a relief!
London is absolutely a buzz about the wedding and the happy couple. Articles in the newspaper everyday and they are busy cleaning and sprucing things up for the big event. Also getting ready for the 2012 Olympics. And of course repair of the damage a few hooligans did, while the rest of the crowd peacefully protested government cutbacks.
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By: No one's puppet on April 14, 2011
at 12:27 PM
Looking at jsri’s post about what a Liberal is I find myself asking an obvious question. Are those beliefs or just ideals? I ask only because I see none of that practiced on this blog.
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By: tammyharper on April 14, 2011
at 11:06 AM
LOL LOL JSRI, you tickle me.
Thanks for alerting me to the “name calling”. Since I don’t read those silly people’s contributions I missed the latest tirade.
I can only guess which one? it was this time. Gosh, I sure hope I can sleep tonight knowing “they” called me a liberal. 😉
But on to more important things…
Just where are those jobs the GOP/tpers promised?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/14/966875/-100-days-of-GOP-rule-Still-no-jobs-bills
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By: lori on April 14, 2011
at 10:56 AM
jsri, enjoyed your last post. thanks for not posting the same whiny rant again about why everybody (who matters to you) left this place. you (and that delusional jean) also keep forgetting that you’re not going to continue posting here. you’re also not nearly as smart as you think you are. the smart fish don’t take the bait. fool.
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By: Anonymous on April 14, 2011
at 10:50 AM
Elsie, the stereotypical description of liberals also describes true conservatives. Did you know Neocons are lapsed liberals? I think some of them suffer from immigrant syndrome.
Many people who claim the liberal banner are something else.
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By: James on April 14, 2011
at 10:27 AM
No one’s puppet, could you indulge me a bit longer if you are still reading? Did you get a chance to watch French and British television and radio shows? What did you think of them?
My wife has taught French and I took French. Our problem was our accents were so thick they still had a problem understanding us.
Did you like the food?
Did you hear much conversation about the upcoming royal wedding?
Katie Curic is a clueless wonder isn’t she tammyharper? She reached her level of incompetence as an anchor. She would be better as a talk show host.
I agree with much of it Elsie. The “rich’ often escape taxes because their money is in financial and other assets which are sheltered, while the rest of us pay taxes on money we earn each year. The system is unfair.
Thanks, too for the nuclear link, PFessor.
jsri, that is a good effort. I knew you could do it.
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By: James on April 14, 2011
at 9:27 AM
Oh hey, jsri, you hit on another favorite idea of mine. You know how much I appreciate the greatest hits of Jim Wright at stonekettle dot com. Here’s what he wrote on Liberalism and which bears repeating today:
********
….Liberalism is a mental illness, my ass.
In fact, just the opposite is true: attempting to resolve conflict without resorting to violence, promoting tolerance within broad and reasonable limits, seeking equality for all, protecting the world we live in so that we can go on living in it, and taking care of the weak and the less fortunate are the hallmarks of the mature and the rational and the healthy and the sane mind.
And in point of fact, these very things are the founding principles of nearly every mainstream religion, but most especially Christianity – Jesus was the ultimate Liberal. If you claim to be a Christian and you’re a NeoCon then you are a G-d—-ed hypocrite.
These are the founding principles of every major conservative service organization, from the Masons, to the Elk’s Lodge, to the Boy Scouts of America.
And these are the founding principles of the United States itself.
Liberalism is what sanity looks like.
No wonder Neocons don’t understand it.
********
Oh, yeah.
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By: Elsie on April 14, 2011
at 9:15 AM
James
Go back to sleep.
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By: jsri on April 14, 2011
at 9:14 AM
Very good article, Lori. I agree with much of it. Robert J. Samuelson’s column “Excessive government lacks easy fix” makes the point even better with numbers.
However, I agree with PFessor that the road to socialism is the road to Greece, Portugal, and other countries compelled to retrench because socialism ultimately fails.
The writer also assumes too much about future social and political beliefs of our immigrants. They may, as he writes, overwhelm Republicans and conservatives, but as they rise through the economy, they may have as others have done, embrace private enterprise and personal freedom. The Hispanics I know have conservative social values, and most are pro-live. Mark Steyn, a conservative author of “America Alone,” believes that Hispanics will be our national salvation.
The writer neglected to mention that conservatives are multiplying faster than liberals.
I agree about jsri, PFessor. I also believe he thinks this blog belongs to his friends and him.
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By: James on April 14, 2011
at 9:06 AM
http://thinkprogress.org/2011/04/13/tax-dodging-lobbying-congress/
Interesting link delurkergurl found: “12 Tax-Dodging Corporations Spent $1 Billion To Influence Washington Over The Last Decade”
It’s a bet peeve of mine that not only American millionaires but also billionaire-class individuals and corporations screw the rest of us taxpayers by paying no taxes themselves. Then, to make matters even worse, they also get BACK millions (in total, billions) in tax refunds, tax breaks and sweetheart deals in ultra low tax rates.
We are bleeding away through unfair taxation the life blood of the middle class while the obscenely rich are protected by tax laws favorable to them and their attorneys. And this article addresses some of the more egregious offenders.
Interesting read.
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By: Elsie on April 14, 2011
at 8:59 AM
Lori:
Do you realize that we have just suffered the ultimate of all put-downs? Yes, we have been called Liberals. Doesn’t that frost your onions? Since that puts us in the category of dirt bags, I thought I’d better look up the term so I can defend myself.
I tried to boil down the definition list but any or all of the following terms kept coming up: – progressive, broad-minded, unprejudiced, compassionate, charitable, openhanded, munificent, altruistic, giving and generous. I’ve got to admit, that’s an awful lot of baggage to carry around.
Then I thought about the sort of folks who like to throw around such terms as pejoratives. I call them the cons. I suspect that many of the cons work out of their garages, sort of like a teenage rock band, creating a lot of noise that annoys the neighbors but little music. These seem to be the same folks who want kids to starve, aging adults to die off and everyone else in between to work until they pass to the great beyond. They want to turn our schools into evangelican boot camps and jingoistic propaganda mills. But they want the rest of us to pay the bills for doing so.
Libs on the other hand see the human condition for what it really is, – flawed. And they try to act in ways that ameliorate undesirable conditions. They volunteer their time, donate money, recognize injustice and work to correct it. And they do it without resorting to chest thumping displays like silverback apes.
So, after all that, I decided that the term liberal should be worn as a badge of honor. Wear it proudly. It’s so nice to be recognized.
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By: jsri on April 14, 2011
at 8:46 AM
In a recent interview, CBS News anchor Katie Couric blamed her lousy ratings on weak lead-ins from “local news stations”.
That, and widespread ownership of remote controls.
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By: tammyharper on April 14, 2011
at 8:30 AM
“christ. Get a life. It’s just a blog.”
That’s great advice for ALL of us! The very best poster is our own progressive voice, Helen, and we hope she’ll be back shortly. She’s greatly missed.
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By: Elsie on April 14, 2011
at 8:23 AM
James –
I think the reason jsri can’t get any traction is that he, in his own head, divides the posters at M&H into the “worthy” and the “unworthy.”
christ. Get a life. It’s just a blog.
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By: PFesser on April 14, 2011
at 8:00 AM
For a more technical look at Fukushima nuclear accident from the gEEks at the IEEE:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/energy/nuclear/fukushima-accident-upgraded-to-severity-level-7/?utm_source=techalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=041411
Pretty serious. This points the way to better safety backup systems.
Re: “socialism” being a “damn good deal.” We already tried this experiment, remember? Ask those participants in the ultimate twin experiment, East and West Germany, which they prefer. That is, if you can get any of the phone lines in the East to work…
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By: PFesser on April 14, 2011
at 7:22 AM
Good morning friends!
I love this guy..
“The ideology and demographics of our country are gradually shifting in our favor. White people are getting old and not having kids. Legal Hispanics are having legal children. Kids are going to college. People are getting ever-so-slightly more cognizant about “socialism” being a pretty damn good deal and not the Russian bogeyman that FoxNews has made it out to be.
But the process is slow, it is ponderous, it is there but not quite there yet; coming but not yet here. We must unify as a base and lead our party to not just victory, but decisive victory in 2012; lest we repeat the mistakes of 2010 and see our country fall to even more harm.”
YES WE CAN!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/11/965722/-Obama-wasnt-all-we-expected,-and-Imma-let-you-finish,-but
.
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By: lori on April 14, 2011
at 4:08 AM
Very poorly, Elsie. I say, oui; they say, ah American.
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By: No one's puppet on April 13, 2011
at 11:18 PM
Hey, NOP, how do you say, “No one’s puppet” in French?!
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By: Elsie on April 13, 2011
at 10:41 PM
Rachel Maddow had really excellent commentary on our president’s speech tonight. Unfortunately, I had other things that came up and took me away from her show while in progress, so I’ll just catch it online tomorrow. If you’d like to do so, as well, you can find her at http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/
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By: Elsie on April 13, 2011
at 10:39 PM
And I should make it clear, I am taking the word of a French tour guide, that France exports canola oil.
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By: No one's puppet on April 13, 2011
at 10:17 PM
Predominately in London James, on the Saturday before I left, we went to Stonehenge, Bath, and Windsor Castle though. It is while on this excursion we saw some canola. Didn’t visit any farms though.
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By: No one's puppet on April 13, 2011
at 10:15 PM
Thanks No one’s puppet. My wife is French and German. I liked France too. The canola as a crop does interest me. I didn’t realize they exported the oil. Did you get to drive by any farms?
Where in Britain were you? My wife and I lived in Great Bardfield northeast of London for two years. Whenever someone travels in the region it revives memories. I hope you had a good time.
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By: James on April 13, 2011
at 6:11 PM
jsri, I was polite but firm in my beliefs. People like you, many now absent, called me “Troll, jackass, stupid, teabagger, trash, inhumane, dittohead, mindless, worthless…,” “You” compared me to manure, a child abuser, and other unpleasant things. “You” organized “scroll baby scroll” (my term) against me and tried to vote me off the site. “You” even questioned my gender and created false James.
I gave as good as I got, and I loved reminding you of the times I was right. It’s documented on this blog. One would think that others’ records of success compared to your failures would make you do some soul searching.
To be fair, your political commentary is relatively scant. And some of your comments about events on this site show you are barely self aware. Most of your effort tends toward personal attacks, so it is difficult to judge your opinions of specific issues.
Best yet, I have gotten to you haven’t I? I am inside of your head. If I weren’t you would not revisit old battles like the Ancient Mariner. You wouldn’t care, but you do don’t you jsri?
Yes, I am full of myself, and here I am. I have earned it.
Stand and fight once and for all or let bygones be bygones. IF you treat me with respect, I will treat you the same.
And as Tammyharper reminded us, the counter still stands at zero. Compared to tammyharper, I am a fuzzy little puppy.
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By: James on April 13, 2011
at 6:03 PM
James, I liked France quite a lot, contrary to what we hear, they are apparently fond of us as well. While I fractured and butchered their language, they were most helpful and kind, volunteering whenever possible to speak English, for which I was most grateful. Of interest to you, the crop I saw the most, growing in France, was canola, they don’t use it as a cooking oil in France, but export it as well as use it for cattle feed. Saw a few canola fields in England as well.
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By: No one's puppet on April 13, 2011
at 5:11 PM
Craig, I’m glad the news is a little better. Public television followed several cancer patients for a long time, and their emotional ups and downs were apparent. Our friend’s grandmother was diagnosed with terminal cancer almost four years ago, and at 85, they think she may still make 90. Her mood swings go into bitchiness, and she still lives in her home with help from the grand child.
I don’t assume I will live to see the next season when one ends. I’ve been that way since age 24. It makes life vivid and exciting.
Jsri, Jean and I shared a few words. I reminded him this blog documents how often I have been right to counter his negative comments about me. I reminded Jean I have had to correct parts of several of her history lessons.
I’m not flattering myself, but I’ll bet they had a few words about me in the kitchen a week ago. I don’t belong in the kitchen, so I don’t check.
Take care of yourself, PFessor. You’re too young to die.
NOP, how did you like France?
I agree, Lori.
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By: James on April 13, 2011
at 4:28 PM
Completely off the topic. The Republicans we have in office now are almost as bad as the Liberals.
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By: tammyharper on April 13, 2011
at 1:54 PM
Go count your money Ms. Harper, see if you can make it to the end of the month.
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By: No one's puppet on April 13, 2011
at 1:52 PM
No one’s puppet it means you are a intellectual coward. You cherry pick whatever topic backs your liberal agenda and ignore that which blows holes in your belief system, ie burring your head in the sand. Sorry my dear but that is just how it is.
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By: tammyharper on April 13, 2011
at 1:41 PM
Look Ms. Harper, if people refuse to discuss politics with Beck groupies, it is just a sign of high intellect. Nothing personal, but you people just aren’t going to win the lottery, so your decision to protect your fantasy income from a higher tax rate is ridiculous. But when things go bad for you in real life, we’ll be there for you.
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By: No one's puppet on April 13, 2011
at 1:37 PM
More good news for dems!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/12/966152/-Daily-Kos-SEIU-State-of-the-Nation-Poll:-A-good-week-for-Dems
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By: lori on April 13, 2011
at 1:21 PM
case in point lori, your the biggest coward of them all, well next to Cynthia and Delurkergurl anyway.
Let the record show the counter stood at zero a second time. More than enough proof that if your a liberal check your morals at the door as they are not only unnecessary but just get in the way of the greater need of winning at ANY cost.
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By: tammyharper on April 13, 2011
at 12:47 PM
Fan that JSRI!
On a more interesting note. It was good to hear someone in Washington speak about an actual plan to reduce our debt instead of just yammering about what NOT to do, as in, take away THEIR tax cut. WTG Mr. President!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/13/obama-debt-speech-_n_848446.html
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By: lori on April 13, 2011
at 12:39 PM
The more I think about PFsser’s comments the more I think he hit the nail on the head. When the band of thugs has a valid point to make there is no shutting you up about it. As soon as a non liberal makes a point, you are all the sudden to good to comment on it and retreat to your backup board to post. Cowards one and all, too proud/ignorant to concede even the smallest point. Step up or shut up.
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By: tammyharper on April 13, 2011
at 12:21 PM
I find it comical (not to mention a tad bit hypocritical) after the EXTENSIVE history of this board to relentlessly attack in every conceivable way any non liberal on this board in droves that you should make that comment jsri.
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By: tammyharper on April 13, 2011
at 11:58 AM
PFesser on April 12, 2011 at 4:43 PM
You posted the following:
“PFesser and James.. Guess all the “real” social commentary is going on over at the kitchen?”
Couldn’t tell you. I don’t think I have looked in there for over a month, maybe two – though I wouldn’t refer to it as “real” commentary, by any stretch. It’s kind of hard to take the BBB seriously when they run and hide when someone gets the best of them. Not much depth of character in quitters, I don’t think. Sort of a, “if you can’t take the heat, get in the kitchen.” LOL … pussies….
The above is a perfect example of why so many people have stopped commenting on H&M’s site and have gravitated to a friendlier place. About a year ago, you and your collection of graffiti posting thugs took over and in short order managed to drive most of the long-time posters away. I suspect that many of those who disappeared don’t feel they have to justify every innocuous comment they make to the satisfaction of carpetbaggers who have taken over the comment section for no other purpose than to denigrate and insult others. And the irony of being accused of playing kiss ass by those who spend most of their time playing kissy-ass is not lost on those who have “disappeared”. It is an extraordinary example of deflecting well deserved criticism by launching pre-emptive attacks but failing to see themselves reflected in their own comments. .
As far as “social” commentary, if you think that means comments made on a protected site at the expense of others, you are whistling up a wind. There is less said about the interlopers on H&M than one might suspect. I believe most writers see them as trivia to be ignored.
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By: jsri on April 13, 2011
at 10:46 AM
What are we doing to our young girls? For anyone with a young daughter or grand daughter this is a must read/see. IMHO
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/23/sara-ziff-picture-me-model_n_736416.html
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By: lori on April 13, 2011
at 4:31 AM
Should anyone be surprised that a testy boorish type would whine that no one is willing to debate him? I’m gone a couple of weeks and not much, make that nothing, changed.
The strongest sense I had of my own mortality was in The Catacombs of Paris a week ago. Death really is the great equalizer; rich, poor, loved, and the unlovable all await the same fate.
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By: No one's puppet on April 12, 2011
at 10:02 PM
Glad to see all …that nothing has changed.
I appreciate the good humor and difference in opinions.
“Mortal”.. yes we are.
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By: Craig on April 12, 2011
at 9:25 PM
Craig-
glad to see you stop by. Hoping Val’s down days are few and glad to hear there are some gains in pushing back the cancer. Take best of care- both of you.
jsri-
I come from a large family on both sides with marraige expanding the membership almost exponentially. We have our twits, our curmudgeons, our sweet but dotty souls, our in-your-face pills…
If a type of personality exists, we have it. , good, bad, or whatever.
I wear a bag over my head when one cousin is around so no one can see the family resemblance . He’s a twin to your BIL.
Works for me 🙂
and embarresses the daylights out of the cousin…
Helen and Margaret-
Certainly missing you. Hope all is well. Thank you for having us all in.
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By: alaskapi on April 12, 2011
at 8:25 PM
Hey Craig ! I’m delighted to hear Val’s nodes appear to be shrinking! I am sure she does have “down” days. I think I would worry about her if she didn’t. I’m not a doc, don’t even play one on the internet, LOL but I can venture to say, mood swings would be typical with someone in her shoes.
I thought of you last weekend. I went to Dallas and stayed in the medical district near Baylor. As I was watching the traffic wiz by I was recalling your ice storm horror story. What a nightmare that must have been!
It’s good to hear from you. Keep your chin up… namaste
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By: lori on April 12, 2011
at 5:26 PM
“PFesser and James.. Guess all the “real” social commentary is going on over at the kitchen?”
Couldn’t tell you. I don’t think I have looked in there for over a month, maybe two – though I wouldn’t refer to it as “real” commentary, by any stretch. It’s kind of hard to take the BBB seriously when they run and hide when someone gets the best of them. Not much depth of character in quitters, I don’t think. Sort of a, “if you can’t take the heat, get in the kitchen.” LOL … pussies….
Sorry to hear about Val’s being down. I had a big blood clot in my leg from sitting at my desk all day and had to get on blood thinners for 6 months. These things can be life-threatening; I sat on the couch with my leg up for about a week holding my breath; when I got back, my associate asked me how I felt.
“Mortal.”
It has been really hard to get my spirits back up, but compared to what she is facing, it’s trivial. Best to you both.
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By: PFesser on April 12, 2011
at 4:43 PM
JSRI,
I’ve got one of those brother in laws as well. And a sis in law that makes him look tame. Guess we don’t marry the family but it sure does come with baggage sometimes.
Val is a lil better physically as nodes are shrinking..mentally though she has her down days. Middle of second cycle currently.
Hope “all” are well..
PFesser and James.. Guess all the “real” social commentary is going on over at the kitchen?
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By: Craig on April 12, 2011
at 3:35 PM
Shash, the variety is nice isn’t it?
That sounds like a nice summer day.
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By: James on April 12, 2011
at 11:32 AM
James, we certainly do get a wider variety of weather than most other places.
A favorite summer tale has to do with a summer morning in western Illinois, where I was at a race meet. I counted nine separate anvil clouds that I could see from where I stood. Uh-oh, not a good way to start a day to be spent outdoors. Sure enough, we had to take shelter twice due to twisters in the neighborhood but the event ended in sunshine and a gorgeous sunset.
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By: Shash on April 11, 2011
at 7:38 PM
I do, too. I’d love to hear her take on the recent budget crisis.
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By: Paige on April 11, 2011
at 7:33 PM
I not only miss Helen but I think we need her to post. Trying to get to the messages here hoses up my browser because there are so many messages.
But I would just rather hear Helen being Helen and knowing things are going well with her and Margaret. Helen, is all well?
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By: Shash on April 11, 2011
at 7:29 PM
I do, too.
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By: delurkergurl on April 11, 2011
at 4:40 PM
Does anyone know if Helen is okay? I miss her.
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By: Jojofraz on April 11, 2011
at 3:59 PM
jsri, I’m sorry no one else has dealt with your puzzle. I would have done something about it before now, but the tornado took my attention.
I’m pleased that I at least thought of Maurice Blondel. I discovered the opening sentence, “Its not enough to…” is in Marice Blondel’s “A Philosophical Life”
I still think I can defend my bumper sticker message.
I hope you get even with your brother-in law.
I wasn’t being paranoid. I was using good sense based on the past.
“He showed up all wet
on the rainy front step
wearing shrapnal in his skin
and the war he saw
lives inside him still
Its so hard reach out to that wall
The years pass by
and now he has grand daughters.”
Paula Cole
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By: James on April 11, 2011
at 2:02 PM
I forgot to mention, I’m glad Elsie posted the interesting article.
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By: James on April 11, 2011
at 9:38 AM
The Hill (Back from the Brink…) wrote that “the fledgling relationship between Boehner and Reid actually grew stronger over the last couple of months, according to sources close to them.”
Reid told the New York Times “I don’t line Boehner’s legislation, but I like the way he is running the House.”
That, to me is some of the best news of the weekend.
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By: James on April 11, 2011
at 9:19 AM
Thanks PFessor. I appreciate any links you can find and send.
As Slash wrote, those storm clouds often appear across the prairies. They are called shelf clouds, and form as cold air falls from thunderstorms. Like a cold front the outflow forces warm air up to feed the storm. Clouds condense as the moisture rises, and make a beautiful show.
Sometimes, the most threatening appearing clouds are not associated with the most wind. Tornadoes are uncommon in such clouds, though the straight line winds can cause as much damage. However, I would worry about the intersection of two such clouds. Since the wind is blowing in two slightly different directions, rotation can spin up small tornadoes near the intersection.
Some call them “gustnadoes” or land spouts. I’ve seen them.
Sometimes, if a thunderstorm moves east, for example, and wind from the storm is moving south, the storm may leave that part of the cloud behind. The shelf cloud will continue moving south as the wind gradually backs to the east or northeast. That wind shift is very refreshing on a hot, sultry day.
Sometimes the boundry will stall like a cold front and set the stage for new thunderstorms along it.
I’ve been in a single engined plane on the edge of a thunderstorm. My never being the same is reflected in my refusal to ever again ride in a single engined plane.
The Mapleton tornado has made the Drudge Report. Damage was so bad people including rescue workers had to walk in and out of the southwest part of town at first. One woman we know left her seven year son alone with a baby sitter, and he was terrified until they were reunited.
12 or 13 people were injured. The town had fifteen minutes warning, and most of the people in the worst-hit section had basements. A woman lived because she took shelter under a basement pool table. The house collapsed into the basement but the table survived. Another family didn’t have time to get to their basement, and debris from their disintegrating house injured them. However, the wind dropped a pickup truck into their small basement.
Other towns also suffered extensive damage, and hail was a significant factor. Roofs and cars were damaged. Someone at Norfolk, Nebraska photographed hail stones the size of apples. Most reported were jagged with sharp points.
People in our county are still repairing damage from the March 22 or 23 outbreak. They were happy this one missed them.
Lincoln, Ne where we spent most of the day had a record high of 90 degrees. There is a chance our area will have a little snow around Friday.
I’m sure Slash would agree our part of the country has some of the nation’s most interesting and extreme weather.
Its too early to judge, Elsie. That writer may be right, but Betsy’s Page “Why the budget deal was a victory” may be more accurate. Understanding the political dynamics at this stage is as difficult as guessing if it will snow on Friday. As Bob Dylan wrote, be slow to judge because “the wheel’s still in spin.”
Our country is in peril. None of us ought to be searching for winners or losers. We need a plan.
I just remembered when I was a boy, the Saturday Evening Post had an article about an Airman who bailed out of his fighter over a thunderstorm. The thunderstorm bounced him up and down for about two hours, I think. Hail stones bruised him, and his parachute nearly folded several times. I think it happened near your part of the country. I don’t know if it was true, but the story was interesting.
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By: James on April 11, 2011
at 9:08 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-creamer/why-last-weeks-deal-reduc_b_847216.html
I haven’t had my first cup of coffee yet, but I HAVE read that article and found it interesting this morning. I’d like to share it with Helen’s progressive readers today. The title of it is “Why Last Week’s Deal Reduces Republican Leverage in 2012 Budget Battle”.
Headed for coffee….
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By: Elsie on April 11, 2011
at 5:23 AM
Shash –
I’m surely no weather expert, but I certainly *wish* I knew more. It’s the one thing that scares me when I fly. A grizzled old pilot told me once that there is nothing like getting inside a thunderstorm to really make you understand how “big the sky and small the airplane.” He said that you “might” survive the encounter, but you would never be the same.
Still, I love thunderstorms. My kids and I used to sit on the porch and watch them; it was how I got them to not be afraid when they were little. I sure miss those old days. Sigh…
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By: PFesser on April 11, 2011
at 3:51 AM
Hi Helen and Margaret, I hope all is well with the two of you.
Happy Spring everyone. We just got our first major summer storm last night. ‘Bout time.
PFesser, I’m not a professional weather person but everyone in MN thinks we know all about weather. 😉 I have seen clouds like that frequently over the prairie. They are scary but they can also be fun to watch.
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By: Shash on April 10, 2011
at 5:36 PM
Here’s one if them:
http://www.extremeinstability.com/index.htm
Ever see any clouds like these, James?
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By: PFesser on April 10, 2011
at 12:14 PM
James – I found a great article – I think it was in one of the aviation magazines I get – on supercells, with great drawings. I have looked at it three or four times and am just getting to where I can kind of get the hang. Do you want me to send you the link if I can find it again?
There is also a good site on thunderstorms from the aviation perspective, extreme-something or other.com. I can send that to you too when I get home. (Alas, working again this weekend.) Sometimes saving lives is a pain in the ass. (That’s a joke…)
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By: PFesser on April 10, 2011
at 12:04 PM
jsri, I read every word on this site unless I decide to be “gone.” One can learn a lot. Graduate school and later farming taught me not to miss anything.
I like that quiz. I wish we could have more.
My wife and I attended a weather seminar in Lincoln, Nebraska yesterday. In the afternoon, several neighbors called me to ask what was going on since they heard a steady roar. Did they need to take shelter? I was clueless because we saw no clouds, and we were inside all day, but I knew a warm front was surging north, and I thought it would get nasty fast. We were lucky. The storms stayed three or four miles north.
Sometime later today, the national news will report what happened in Mapleton, Iowa and many other towns last night. We know people there so that is my main interest today.
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By: James on April 10, 2011
at 7:29 AM
No really, we’re here to help. My Arse.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/75548.html
As far as the budget goes, I’ll believe any of them really care when they pass a bill that cuts all elected officials pay by 20%. If we have to tighten our belts so should they.
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By: tammyharper on April 9, 2011
at 9:58 AM
A budget is the effect of income and outgo. While pols are trying to minimize the outgo – sometimes to the point of heaping all responsibility on the middle and lower classes – they are doing NOTHING about income, except diminishing it. Taxes are the only guaranteed income the government gets, but the individuals politicians must give tit for tat, i.e. tax breaks to those who financed campaigns. So the rich get rich and the poor get poorer.
Then, on the side, the budget includes a hot button issue, like funding for Planned Parenthood/abortion/funding for NPR, that takes our attention away from the reality of income, or lack of it.
I like PFesser’s idea. 🙂
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By: JMacC on April 9, 2011
at 9:15 AM
James:
Sorry to induce a bout of paranoia, but it was not aimed at you. I must have missed your earlier comment about philosophy, but then I skip most of what you post anyhow. Takes too much time.
FYI, this quiz thing ended up in one of my throw away email boxes. I have several and use them mostly when I order something online and don’t want my personal inbox filled with future advertising and annoying solicitations. When I tried to answer, my response was rejected, but after a little digging I found out it came from my brother-in-law who is one of the most irritating people on the face of the earth. Now I owe him one. Much of what he sends me has no context and is basically useless.
BTW, I found the source of the quote in its entirety. Took about fifteen minutes to locate it.
Now all I have to do is figure out what it means.
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By: jsri on April 9, 2011
at 9:14 AM
When I read Jsri’s comments, I suspected a trap since I had cited Kant a few days ago. It reminded me of November 12 or so when false James appeared and Juneau Joe who had been absent suddenly became verbose with insults. Then, he disappeared again.
I know practically nothing about philosophy. My only knowledge comes from a 1972 grad school night class and some casual reading. Will and Areal (Sp) wrote a good Clift Notes start of general philosophical theory. Maybe someone can find answers in their book.
My relationship to philosophy is like the old joke. Define ignorance and apathy. Don’t know and don’t care.
Since Jsri doesn’t know the answers either, how do we know who is right? Absent direct quotes we might have to vote.
Here are my guesses from memory: Plato
Montesque
Blondel
Blondel
My bumper sticker is “Know your friends and enemies.”
I forgot to cite examples of mass movements’ influence on government. A small group of us convinced Iowa’s DOT to build a new bridge. After three years of hard work, officials told us what we did was unique.
The Tea Party helped cause our current budget impass through last summers’ demonstrations. They so frightened Democrats they refused to pass a spending law last year because they feared what the voters would do. The Tea Party helped change the political dynamic.
I will never tell my representative I will not vote for his/her party again. They don’t need to know. Telling them removes what little bargaining power I have.
I hope someone gives us the right answers to the quiz. Now, my wife and I are about to leave for a severe storm seminar in Lincoln, Nebraska.
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By: James on April 9, 2011
at 6:05 AM
Very bothersome. Common 3rd party…we need you.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/08/news/economy/shutdown_congress_pay/index.htm
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By: tammyharper on April 8, 2011
at 9:45 PM
Off topic – but so is everything else on this site these days.
This philosophy quiz arrived in my inbox recently. Why me, I have no idea. I’m not a philosopher. But I sent it off to a conservative friend so he can show his superior grasp of political wisdom as cons are wont to do. unfortunately, I’m still waiting for a reply so better still, I will leave it to others who are better equipped to determine the sources and interpret the concept. Since we have people on this blog who are infinitely better schooled in philosophy than I am, a week should be plenty of time to ID the writers and boil this down to a bumper sticker.
It is not enough to merely justify the social fact or political organization in general, according to ________. We must also take into account what is unique about each country in relation to other countries, even if that means that each country is inclined to behave as if it were the only true country or, as ________ might have put it, to behave as if it had the unique right to embody the spirit of humanity in a particular moment of history. The inculcation of civic duties within a people tends to make us love and exalt only one country, our own, without making us recognize and love what ________ thinks of as the legitimate and providential diversity of many countries and nations. It seems that we can understand how we can be devoted to our own country, but not how others may be just as devoted to another country quite different in spirit from ours. This is a form of collective egoism, focused on only one country among others, which is no less destructive of the social fabric than individual egoism within any particular country. In inculcating the obligation to devote oneself to one’s own country, which remains for _______ an essential part of everyone’s human good, even unto death, we must also inculcate a more enlightened spirit, a heart willing to recognize the standpoint of other peoples in the measure that these diverse peoples represent an original and legitimate aspect of human culture and of the social ideal to be realized.”
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By: jsri on April 8, 2011
at 5:35 PM
To honor the title of Whirled Peas’ post, I’m playing in my head.
“God makes no mistakes
I’m on the right track
Baby, I was born this way
Right track, I was born this way.”
I’m attending a weather seminar tomorrow. If the government shuts down, I will aske what the meteorologists think about it.
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By: James on April 8, 2011
at 5:09 PM
That study is interesting, but in simple terms it portrays liberals as wimps and conservatives as shallow- thinking brawlers. Scientists ought to study the effects of what parents and close relative believe. They may be as or more important than brain structure.
The attached story about the possible five thousand year old gay man or transexual was also interesting, though the title should have read “Neolithic” not cave man.
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By: James on April 8, 2011
at 5:00 PM
I beat you to it PFessor. I had already called my Senators’ and Representative’s offices. I told them Planned Parenthood and our troops must not be held hostage to political posturing.
Both sides are using ideology to fight over relative pocket change. I told them so politely, and reminded them they are ignoring the real problem of entitlement spending.
Assuming you aren’t rich or don’t have connections, you can’t do much more than you are. Letters to the editor or attending political meetings will not change much unless they are as numerous as Tea Party callers during the health insurance debate. They will help you feel better, though. Only votes will create change. Poll numbers might make them think a little.
Until the election, we need a Tea Party or old fashion civil rights type demonstration, union organizing, or sixties type riots to get their attention. I’ve been in riots and at Tea Party demonstrations. They are demonstrably effective over time.
Otherwise, don’t waste your time being too angry. It isn’t worth it.
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By: James on April 8, 2011
at 4:43 PM
Another Gem from our hostess
“Has it occurred to anyone else that the Republican party has become the party of money, guns and sex? It seems to be the only things they think about. Who is having sex with who? How much are my taxes? Keep your hands off my guns. I really think they would explode if a gay couple used their tax refund to purchase an AKA assault rifle. They wouldn’t know whether to hate the sinner or compliment the sin. All the problems we have in the world and this is what we are wasting our time worrying about. Squeaky wheel folks… squeaky wheel gets the oil.
Imagine what the Religious Right Wing of the Republican party could have done if they had used their supposed Christian morality to squeak about helping the poor. They could have swept the election if someone had said something like: As Christians we think Christ would want us to tend to the suffering of the poor so universal health care is important to us. And money is no object. We will gladly share some of our riches to help the least among us.
My God but what a unified electorate that would have been.”
Hope you and yours all well Helen, come back to us soon. We miss you.
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By: Mikat on April 8, 2011
at 4:15 PM
OK – I have called my rep’s Washington office; so have my wife and secretary.
Lori – you are a politico – what should be done next?
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By: PFesser on April 8, 2011
at 2:01 PM
Were / we’re / whatever…
Damn spell checker should know what I meant.
😉
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By: Whirled Peas Δ on April 8, 2011
at 12:44 PM
File this under…
They we’re born that way!
PEACE ~ Δ
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By: Whirled Peas Δ on April 8, 2011
at 12:38 PM
I would urge everyone with an interest in womens’ health issues to write or call their Congressmen/women immediately. The ReBiblicans are attempting to shut down the entire Federal government rather than keep any funding in for Planned Parenthood – a blatant payback to the Religious Right and those of that ilk.
C’mon sisters! Where the hell ARE you? This is YOUR issue! We are being dragged backward, fingernails digging the dirt, as fast as possible. Do you want to go back to the old days of back-alley abortions? You have a dog in this hunt, get in and get moving, and I mean now!
Sample letter I just fired off to my representative here in VA, who was elected because of his predecessor’s support for Obamacare.
*************
Dear Representative Hurt:
My wife and I are horrified at what is taking place in Washington this very minute. Sir, we voted for you because Representative Periello ignored the will of the Virginia public and voted to pass “Obamacare,” which a large majority of Virginians opposed.
Now I read the news and I see the Republicans’ blatant attempt to hold the budget hostage in order to placate and “pay back” the Religious Right and others of that ilk concerning abortion. Frankly, sir, I am disgusted with my Congress. I should not have to remind you that we are on the brink of financial insolvency; our debt is so far out of control that the issue is seriously in question, and I find my Congressmen wrangling over social issues like abortion, which in my mind was settled by the Supreme Court a long time ago.
Please get yourself focused, along with your colleagues, and deal with the Peoples’ Business. If you don’t like abortion, don’t have one.
In the meantime, do not shut down our government in a blatant attempt to shove the Republican social agenda down the public’s throat. You saw where that got Representative Periello. I will speak to you frankly, sir, and take it as a threat or not: if you and your Republican colleagues do not get on task and divorce yourself from the Religious Right, I – a former Republican, and now Independent – will not only never vote for another Republican in my life, I will begin to actively campaign against them.
Cordially,
&c &c
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By: PFesser on April 8, 2011
at 11:42 AM
…Margaret and Helen—Yoo-Hoo and wherefore art you ??? In Desparate need of news and. and some NEW views as well. Remains a tad worrisome without some new inputs….
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By: Bozzy54 on April 8, 2011
at 10:14 AM
I like it. Maybe the residents of the Fringe’s alternate dimesion will enact the amendment. Certainly not here.
Declaring the military non- essential this time, if true is a disgrace.
Now, I am leaving for a class on preserving historic sites from flood damage. Its not a Lady GaGa concert, but it will do.
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By: James on April 8, 2011
at 8:00 AM
James –
How about this: a constitutional amendment that says,
A balanced budget shall be maintained at all times except in times of DECLARED war by the Congress. During any time of unbalanced budget, the President and all members of both houses of congress shall receive no pay nor any contributions to any pension plans nor any health care plans. Any and all monies of any kind shall go into the general treasury to defray the cost of an unbalanced budget until such time as is shall be balanced.
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By: PFesser on April 8, 2011
at 7:16 AM
We were in a surplus during the Clinton years because Bill is one of the smartest politicians we have. He was not especially ideological, and he adopted the Republican philosophy after they took the Congress. Other factors included our reducing military spending after the Soviet Union fell and the Bush tax increase.
Rumors say Bill and Newt were ready to discuss reforming Social Security before Monica intruded.
I am a volunteer weather observer and storm spotter. Meteorologists were not paid during the last shut down, and they were angry.
Its too bad our government leaders will still be paid. They led us into this mess.
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By: James on April 8, 2011
at 6:35 AM
“Government shutdown: What’s closed, what’s open?”
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2011/04/politics/interactive.govt.shutdown.list/index.html?hpt=T2
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By: Elsie on April 7, 2011
at 8:19 PM
CNN article yesterday on the debt.
This reminds me of how people, just before they go under from credit card debt, start paying credit cards off with other credit cards. It is popularly known as “putting your debts on turbo.”
THE US DEBT IS ON TURBO. I absolutely do not see how we can come through this intact. I envision the kinds of riots that were seen between the world wars in other parts of the world. It is really, really scary. And, like him or not or give him the credit or not, I remember how that, at the end of Clinton’s term, we were in a surplus condition.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/economy/debt_ceiling_deadline/index.htm
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By: PFesser on April 7, 2011
at 6:41 PM
I’m shocked. I we all knew the Wisconsin Supreme Court race would go to a re count, but this is amazing. One source put Prosser about 2,000 votes in the lead, another forty. Then, I read an uncomfirmed report that enough missing votes were found on an official’s private computer that the margin for Prosser is 7,000 votes.
Does anyone know what is actually happening?
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By: James on April 7, 2011
at 5:28 PM
I am a Lady GaGa fan, especially since she has a Nebraska connection.
Here is a quote to add to Glenn Beck’s:
“There’s nothing wrong with who you are
she said, because He made you perfectly.
So hold you head up darlin, you’ll go far
Don’t give in to regret
just love yourself instead
I was born this way
There ain’t no mistakes
I’m on the right track
I was born this way
because God makes no mistakes
I’m on the right track
I was born this way.”
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By: James on April 7, 2011
at 4:59 PM
I like NPR, and we donate money to them, but I think we cannot afford supporting them with our tax dollars. One of their executives said they can survive without the money.
I would also stop paying for creationists’ colleges and bridges to nowhere. As Ill Sen Everette Dirkson said something like, ” a billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you are talking about real money.” I think they would survive with donated money.
I’d cut farm payments and delay Social Security.
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By: James on April 7, 2011
at 3:57 PM
Tammyharper is right about Glenn Beck. Soros and other backed groups have attempted broadcasters boycotts for some time and with a bit of success. Beck’s ratings have fallen but they are still good, but so have other talk show hosts’.
His attention deficit disorder may be kicking in, or he and Fox may have decided to do something less visible. I think the loss of some sponsors and their money had more to do with the split than just ratings.
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By: James on April 7, 2011
at 3:45 PM
anxiously awaiting another insightful post by our great leader. We need your brilliant mind and sassy tongue. Hope all is going well for my favorite writer
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By: fets on April 7, 2011
at 3:43 PM
Those Iowa eagles are taking so much band with my wife said the school computers are slower than normal at times. I once watched a bald eagle snatch another bird’s kill on the wing.
I attended a fundamentalist college. They didn’t allow drinking, smoking or dancing. We all had to take religion courses, and parrot the 6000+ age of the earth. Dinosaurs didn’t ride with Jesus. They never existed. The Devil planted their bones to test the believers. Niagra Falls was the same as during the creation, and uneven heating of the earth did not cause wind. God did.
A friend who later got a good research at Oak Ridge couldn’t tell his parents what he was learning in some of his classes. Sometimes, I gave biology and weather anti- classes, and when given the chance, we drank like fish to rebel.
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By: James on April 7, 2011
at 3:37 PM
Pfessor, I mentioned that the CBO believes our economy is unsustainable after 2037. Our entitlement mentality will crash down. Hard assets are good insurance.
The only prediction I made to Honolulu Sally which did not happen is inflation, and it is on its way. Yesterday, the price of corn was over $7.00 a bushel, the highest in history. If we have a drought this year that price will be the norm. We also have rising oil prices and growing world demand and competition for commodities. We can’t pay our national bills.
That is why I support anyone, Tea Party member, the Black Caucus, or socialist, who will seriously try to cut spending. Previous Republicans and Democrats have failed us.
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By: James on April 7, 2011
at 3:22 PM
Yes, PFesser, your comment about the biology grad student just kinda makes my point: funding private online schools with nearly A HALF BILLION FEDERAL TAX DOLLARS so they can promote creationism should be halted immediately.
The earth is flat, Jesus rode the dinosaurs, whatever….
We have no business supporting the business of creationism.
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By: Elsie on April 7, 2011
at 12:29 PM
PFesser, not a ratings issue at all. He has over 2 million viewers at his 5pm time slot
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By: tammyharper on April 7, 2011
at 12:09 PM
Elsie – you might find this interesting.
I live not that far from the Great Bigot’s “University.” If you ever talk to any of their graduates, you will see why I put University in quotes. Several years ago I met one of their graduates at a YMCA in WV and talked to her about her major. Biology, she said. So, do you guys learn about evolution there? Why, NO, of course not! And then she started in about the half-man, half-ape stuff.
So where are you now? I am at WVU, in graduate school in Biology. How are you doing? I am failing.
Really? You don’t even understand the foundation of biology; you are in a biology graduate program and you are failing? Imagine that…
Secondly, I have a bigoted older brother whom I can tolerate in small doses, but after a while gets to crawling up my nose. Several years ago, after giving me some lecture or other on how the “sexual revolution had failed” he decided to wax eloquent on the Right Reverend Jerry Farwell, as I call him. “You know, Jim, I was listening to Jerry Falwell the other night and he made a lot of sense.”
This is not a subject to get me started on. His wife was standing behind him, and I could see her put her head in her hands. Oh god, it’s on…
“Gene,” I said, “if I had Hitler, Mussolini and Jerry Falwell all tied to chairs in the same room and I had only two bullets, I’d shoot Falwell twice.”
“Goddammit! Can’t talk to you about nothin’! Before he could collect his thoughts further, I brushed past him to get to the door. I could see his wife laughing in her hand. She winked as I walked by…
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By: PFesser on April 7, 2011
at 12:03 PM
Okay, one more crazy thing from Beck:
”There are a lot of universities that are as dangerous with the indoctrination of the children as terrorists are in Iran or North Korea. We have been setting up reeducation camps. We call them universities.” — Sept. 1, 2010
I found that interesting, as I’d just read:
“Liberty University, the evangelical private Christian school founded by dead apartheid-supporting bigot Jerry Falwell, received $445 million in federal financial aid last year. The Corporation for Public Broadcasting, by the way, received $420 million from the federal government.
“That massive sum was thanks to the growth of Liberty’s online program, which enrolled 52,000 students last year. The school is the No. 1 recipient of Pell grant money in the state of Virginia….”
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/04/05/liberty_university_federal_money
Next, I noticed another website that has a great comment about all that federal money going to students of creationism at www dot care2 dot com /causes/education/blog/defund-private-online-evangelical-universities/
“This year in Congress has been all about defunding organizations that people don’t agree with. First, the GOP has pushed for bans on funds for abortions, since allegedly people disagree with their tax dollars paying for them (they don’t actually pay for abortions, but that’s another matter). Next they argued that Planned Parenthood, NPR, PBS, the EPA and countless other organizations should lose funding because not every taxpayer agrees with their mission and after all, we are facing a deficit.
“So now I’d like to put up a group for defunding — private, religious colleges with no academic standards. Because I don’t believe in creationism.” His idea: “Don’t Believe in Creationism? Let’s Defund Private Online Evangelical Universities!”
I gotta go with this dude:
Funding private Christian schools that require the teaching of creationism with $445mil in OUR federal tax money is absolutely wrong. No more tax support for creationism.
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By: Elsie on April 7, 2011
at 11:36 AM
Hi ya, Whirled Peas! Where ya been hiding? It’s always good to see what you brung to the table here.
In that list of crazy things, the first one that grabbed my attention is:
“You know, we all have our inner demons. I, for one – I can’t speak for you, but I’m on the verge of moral collapse at any time. It can happen by the end of the show.”
— Nov. 6, 2006
I’m thinking, “damn straight!”
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By: Elsie on April 7, 2011
at 11:15 AM
Link speaks for itself:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/04/06/in-honor-of-his-pending-departure-the-top-10-craziest-things-glenn-beck-ever-said/
PEACE ~ Δ
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By: Whirled Peas Δ on April 7, 2011
at 10:50 AM
Elsie –
Yeah, it is so cool what is available nowadays that wasn’t back then. Sounds like you had a ball!
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By: PFesser on April 7, 2011
at 10:45 AM
tammyharper –
I think he lost his show because of poor ratings, not content. That’s the capitalist way: if it doesn’t sell, then it has to go.
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By: PFesser on April 7, 2011
at 10:43 AM
PFesser, I’m sure that trampling out into the boonies with the guys and a good set of binoculars to count hawks would be fun, but just going online whenever it is convenient to watch the eagle family in its nest is pretty cool, too.
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By: Elsie on April 7, 2011
at 10:42 AM
Helen, when you get back, I’d love to hear your take on Beck losing his show. It might be one of your best commentaries!
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By: Elsie on April 7, 2011
at 10:32 AM
http://www.charter.net/news/read.php?rip_id=%3CD9MEE1CG1%40news.ap.org%3E&ps=1016&src=facebook
While I am sure the Liberals will predictably cheer and call this a victory, it is a shame when any voice is silenced in a nation of free speech. His ratings were better than almost any host on CNN, but like many on this board there were a few who had no room in their world for anyone not like then. I was as often to disagree as to agree with Glen Beck but what I valued most was his unique outlook and perspective on a variety of subjects. Having that silenced is a loss for everyone, even for those too ignorant to see it. We have moved one step closer to losing free speech.
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By: tammyharper on April 7, 2011
at 9:47 AM
Elsie –
When I was in college, several professors in the Dept of Forestry, and a prominent chemistry professor (George Hall I think was his name) organized a sojourn to count and classify migrating hawks. They had regular flyways and we would all sit there with binoculars and count/classify them. It was great fun. Wow, the good old days…
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By: PFesser on April 7, 2011
at 8:17 AM
When you just can’t stand another minute of politics or wrangling, you might enjoy the website of the Raptor Resource Project.
I’ve only recently found it, and I totally enjoy watching the Decorah, Iowa eagles on their nest. At times, up to maybe 160,000 viewers watch the 24-hour live video streaming of the mom and dad eagles who’ve sat on their three eggs for several weeks now. The first two eggs hatched over the weekend, and the third one opened just yesterday. The forum questions and answers help explain things as they occur, and a number of YouTube vignettes re-cap what transpired while you are away from the computer.
I’ve learned a LOT about eagles that I had no ideas about until recently. It’s really entertaining if you are interested in nature and eagles. You can find the live streaming and links to the forum at
http://www.ustream.tv/decoraheagles
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By: Elsie on April 7, 2011
at 8:04 AM
Hi all –
I generally don’t subscribe to this kind of thinking, but I believe this guy may be spot-on. Anybody knows you can’t just keep spending. At some time you must balance income and outgo. I think China’s disgust with us is completely valid; we no longer deserve to be the planet’s reserve currency, and when that happens, it’s Katie-bar-the-door, IMHO.
I hate to be a doomsday soothsayer, but right now I am looking at a bit of VA farmland and a set of plows for my tractor. It is that serious I believe.
http://modernsurvivalblog.com/the-economy/when-the-dollar-is-no-longer-a-reserve-currency/
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By: PFesser on April 7, 2011
at 7:40 AM
Elsie,
Exactly!!!! A good article and one we are putting in practice here on H&M. Crazy can’t stand to be ignored!!!!!!!
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By: Mikat on April 7, 2011
at 7:38 AM
You are entitled to your opinions as I am mine. I respectfully disagree.
Wisconsin will have a recount. The Daily Caller quoted Wall Street journalist John Fund author of “Stealing Elections:How Voter Fraud Threatens Our Democracy” said Wisconsin is a good candidate for voter fraud in this election. Milwaukee Detective Mike Sandvick found more voters than people in the past election.
It will take months to learn whether or not voter fraud occured. Allegations of voter fraud in Wisconsin have never changed the outcome of an election, according the the Daily Caller.
Prosser will be in office for four more months, though it is unlikely the union case will reach the court by that time.
I love broad band internet.
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By: James on April 7, 2011
at 6:36 AM
@elsie, interesting and sooo true!
Helen is always spot on thank you for reminding me of some of her classics.
@ Judith, LOL LOL you tickle me!
Good news indeed. We have a had couple of good weeks. Yes we can.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/06/scott-walker-loss-democrats-wisconsin-supreme-court_n_845612.html
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By: lori on April 7, 2011
at 3:32 AM
Tick Tock…
The Washington Post Politics reported that Harvard Prof. Gary King’s research of Congress reveals modern members spend about 27% of their time exchanging taunts.
That partly explains why we are on the verge of a government shutdown.
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By: James on April 6, 2011
at 8:23 PM
Elsie, I’ll accept your word that context of the whole article would have given me a different impression.
I appreciate you weren’t insulting or addressing me. You caught me at a bad time. Setting up broad band connection caused me some problems today. That is no excuse for being nasty to you. I’m sorry.
PFessor, I think that paragraph is wrong. It was true that the last time Republicans held Congress, but I think the new crop is less doctrinaire about social issues. Have you noticed their voices on the subject, while audible are muted this year.
Tea Partyers and libertarians are different, but they overlap. Libertarians also belong to the Tea Party movement.
The CBO says it “can’t conceive of any way the economy can continue past 2037.” That trumps everything.
I don’t care if a Congressman is pro- life, pro- choice, or a communist. If he/she is willing and able to bring our spending under control, we need her/him in Congress. The majority will control their other issues.
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By: James on April 6, 2011
at 8:15 PM
judith I find it laughable that when it comes to your own party’s indiscretions your suddenly stricken with silence. When it suits you and this boards thugs you have endless rantings to say when it is an attack on the conservatives. A dem steps out of line, suddenly your all too good to post.
such as Helen, our blog mistress
I wonder if who Helen is news to anyone else other than Elsie.
So here again 2nd chance Libs. James Wrote.
Katherine R. Windels of Cross Plains, Wisconsin was charged with sending email death threats to Republican officer holders.
And in Response I asked how many Libs feel this person should be removed from office? Ticker reset, lets see what we get for a count.
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By: tammyharper on April 6, 2011
at 8:14 PM
Elsie, that was an interesting article. Thanks.
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By: judith on April 6, 2011
at 5:46 PM
elsie –
“Coast to coast, conservatives get elected by promising smaller government and less business regulation but as soon as they get elected, they rush to put big government regulations on the personal freedom and privacy of your body.”
Well spoken. My POV exactly. They are so dishonest I don’t believe they even see it. I think they really do believe their own line of b.s., which is exactly what makes them dangerous.
OTOH I have really cleaved to the Libertarians over the years. Their positions are so far out of the current mainstream that the Left and Right both dismiss them as nuts. But I believe that if you study the Constitution just a little, the times (and the men who wrote it), you will see that the Libertarians reflect their intent very well. (Libertarians are very, very different from TPers IMHO.)
A friend used to quote: “The Dems think they are your nanny and the Repugs think they are your Daddy. I don’t need a Daddy OR a nanny.”
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By: PFesser on April 6, 2011
at 5:35 PM
James, the way it works is that you would need to read the entire link provided, which establishes the background and sets the stage for making the excerpt better understood. It is actually a discussion addressed to Progressives, such as Helen, our blog mistress. More directly, I was talking to Mikat and Judith for whom I believe the information I linked to would be of interest.
Please note, as well, that I’m not insulting you nor was I even addressing you.
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By: Elsie on April 6, 2011
at 5:32 PM
What victory, Judith? Granted the surge strategy won an uneasy peace in Iraq, but most liberals refused to acknowledge it until Obama became president. By no stretch of the imagination is Afghanistan won, though we are making progress. The press and others would have been asking President Bush embarrasing questions by now.
Speaking of embarassing, Elsie’s quotation is so over the top it is parody. How does it work, Elsie? Is someone assigned to do your thinking for you? Does a messenger deliver the goods every week?
“Some fringe head case…” Your self-knowledge is a first step toward your recovery.
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By: James on April 6, 2011
at 4:17 PM
Judith and Mikat, did you see this? It was at
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/23/911237/-Ignore-the-Hard-Right:-Hit-The-Mainstream-Right-Hard
A brief excerpt follows:
(snip)
“Making a logically specious argument to a liberal – especially when it’s dressed up in the shallow accoutrements of intellectual theorizing – is like waving a red cape in front of a bull, and we just cannot help ourselves: We must correct it, dissect its fallacies, and illustrate in detail how it fails to validly reflect reality….it has become “debatable” rather than the plainly false kookery of some fringe headcase.
“… when you say the word “crazy” and point at a Republican who promulgates sheer nonsense, people will generally recognize that it’s true, and it completely delegitimizes everything they say. Crazy. Not sane. Not connected to reality. People begin to see the things they’re saying in the light of that portrayal, and more likely than not it will fit like a glove with some of the positions they’ve taken.”
******
Ladies,
It’s always better to recognize the crazy for what it is — “the plainly false kookery of some fringe headcase”. Us Libruls need to get on with talking to the sane people around us, and dealing in sanity, rather than arguing with the crazies.
Most likely, our hostess, Helen, being the progressive that she is, would also encourage us to make better use of our time and energy.
Moving on….
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By: Elsie on April 6, 2011
at 3:42 PM
Well, if victory is being ignored, enjoy the win.
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By: judith on April 6, 2011
at 3:18 PM
Hi uawtradesman. I hope you are doing well. I miss your comments.
You have made your point well, tammyharper.
They also have a problem with war. Have you noticed headlines and news stories decrying a huge number of casualties in our wars? Where are the anti- war protesters?
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By: James on April 6, 2011
at 1:42 PM
Well the counter stands at zero. We have had more than a thousand hits since I posted and not one democrat took issue with it. I think this is more than enough proof to back up my assertions that democrats will compromise almost any value in order to achieve victory.
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By: tammyharper on April 6, 2011
at 12:28 PM
ROTFLMAO about the UFO…..
so whats the count now….
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By: uawtradesman on April 6, 2011
at 11:19 AM
I’m fine Craig. I hope you and Valery are too. It took us a long time setting up last night and we had to do some updating, but we now have broad band internet. For the first time, I can watch you tube etc on our computer.
On late Saturday, our daughter- in law was two hours from home in California when her SUV caught fire while she was driving. It burned to the ground while she was driving. Our son sent us pictures. It looked like a NASCAR wreck. Thank goodness, she is alive and well.
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By: James on April 6, 2011
at 9:48 AM
This Is Alot Of great Info Thanks Alots Great Web Blog
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By: Submit My Url Cheap on April 6, 2011
at 9:09 AM
As our hostess, the truely amazing Helen says…..
“Abortion has no business being a political game… a sound bite to make the evening news. It is a medical decision between a woman and her doctor. If you have a moral dilemma or a religious issue, then don’t have an abortion. It really is that simple. Trust me. I know.
Abortion is not a dirty word and I am sick and tired of watching holier than thou white men in Congress pretending that they have any concept of what a woman goes through when making such an important decision. For some women it is a time of great sadness – a pregnancy gone wrong, a wanted child not to be. For some women it is a time of great relief – a decision to delay parenthood. It is a deeply, personal decision made for deeply, personal reasons. And, yes, for some women it is a decision they choose not to make – again for deeply personal reasons.”
You ROCK Helen!
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By: Mikat on April 6, 2011
at 8:49 AM
Well, heck, that ‘incorporate my uterus’ website must have crashed. So, for more information on this interesting development, you can go to
http://floridaindependent.com/25880/aclu-florida-incorporate-uterus-maddow-randolp
“In an interesting chain of events last week, “uterus” became a four-letter word on the Florida House floor. A group of pro-uterus insurrectionists have now leaped to the defense of the now-defenseless “uterus” via the Internet….”
There’s also a Facebook page set up by Rep. Randolph’s wife, Susannah, now at
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Uterus/140276642709436
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By: Elsie on April 6, 2011
at 6:38 AM
As I read more about State Rep. Scott Randolph, D-Orlando, from the Immoral Minority’s website, I found that Rep. Randolph’s offhand comment inspired the local ACLU to launch an “Incorporate my Uterus” website:
***
Coast to coast, conservatives get elected by promising smaller government and less business regulation but as soon as they get elected, they rush to put big government regulations on the personal freedom and privacy of your body.
It’s a clear double standard. To them, there are too many regulations on pharmacies and fruit stands but not nearly enough government rules about your uterus.
Since they seem to agree that government has no business in business, it’s time to make your uterus into a business.
Maybe then your uterus can get the same treatment corporations get – fewer rules, fewer government searches and more personal freedoms.
Even though it won’t be a legal corporation, it’s no joke. Incorporate your uterus now to send them a clear message to keep their big government restrictions off your body and give you the same respect they give to every business.
***
http://incorporatemyuterus.com/
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By: Elsie on April 5, 2011
at 9:55 PM
The Miami Herald has reported that last week —
***
“…state Rep. Scott Randolph, D-Orlando, used his time during floor debate to argue that Republicans are against regulations — except when it comes to the little guys, or serves their specific interests.
At one point Randolph suggested that his wife “incorporate her uterus” to stop Republicans from pushing measures that would restrict abortions. Republicans, after all, wouldn’t want to further regulate a Florida business.
Apparently the GOP leadership of the House didn’t like the one-liner.
They told Democrats that Randolph is not to discuss body parts on the House floor.
“The point was that Republicans are always talking about deregulation and big government,” Randolph said Thursday. “And I always say their philosophy is small government for the big guy and big government for the little guy. And so, if my wife’s uterus was incorporated or my friend’s bedroom was incorporated, maybe they (Republicans) would be talking about deregulating.
“It’s not like I used slang,” said Randolph, who actually got the line from his wife. He said Republicans voiced concern about young pages hearing the word uterus.
“I think it’s a sad commentary about what we think about sex education in the state,” he said.
***
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By: Elsie on April 5, 2011
at 9:50 PM
Have M&H given up the Ghost?..or should I say HOST…?
Seems like its been a while.
Hope all the regulars here and in Kitchen are OK…
Regards
Craig
“the reason neither side can reliably count on our votes is that the further out left or right they get, the more they alienate those of us who left their parties for that very reason.” Amen brother.
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By: Craig on April 5, 2011
at 3:48 PM
This is only peripherally related to abortion, unless one argues unwanted babies are better off not born.
Pink’s new song/video, “Perfect” which can likely be found on youtube, is a disturbing story of a child’s nightmare of not fitting in.
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By: James on April 5, 2011
at 11:10 AM
The average American voter is center right, but extremists have absorbed both parties. While the Republican party has modified its social agenda and given recent lip service to national economic restraint, Democrats have ventured so far afield, voters are beginning to notice. Hence, Republicans appear less onerous by comparison.
A Rasmusen telephone poll of likely voters showed more believe congressional Democrats than Republicans are extremist. Though the press keeps quiet, news that the left commits more abusive and violent acts than the right leaks into public knowledge. This also contributes to a relatively negative perception of Democrats.
It is not “too complicated for” either side. Too many are ideological true believers and their way is the only way.
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By: James on April 5, 2011
at 9:13 AM
Who says Repug’s aren’t making jobs……
http://thepoliticalenvironment.blogspot.com/2011/04/how-to-get-hired-by-scott-were-broke.html
http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/gov-chris-christie-takes-care-his-bud
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/05/963552/-Walker-hires-uneducated,-inexperienced,-2-time-drunk-driver,-son-of-lobbyist-for-$80k-job
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By: Mikat on April 5, 2011
at 8:07 AM
Residents of Chicago reported spotting a UFO.
When last seen, it was being chased by local community organizers, hoping to get the aliens registered as Democrats
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By: tammyharper on April 5, 2011
at 7:19 AM
I ran across this on Jewish World Review this morning. I like to go there to get the conservative POV, but sometimes it is downright scary.
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/dave/weinbaum040511.php3
It seems to me that the Left is convinced that the reason it can’t get the Independent vote is because it is not Left enough; the Right thinks that, if it would just be “true to its principles” and move further Right, everything would be OK.
No, IMHO the reason neither side can reliably count on our votes is that the further out left or right they get, the more they alienate those of us who left their parties for that very reason. Just too complicated for them I guess.
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By: PFesser on April 5, 2011
at 5:53 AM
My wife, once again, brings me back to my senses. She sent me this link today:
I had watched Huckabee’s show at my brother’s home a couple of times and he seemed so, well, NORMAL that I was beginning to forget that he, first and foremost, owed his allegiance to an imaginary, invisible wizard – Constitution be damned.
Yeah, make all Americans watch someone’s sermon at gunpoint. Sorry, Preacher – you’re out of here!
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By: Pfesser on April 4, 2011
at 3:58 PM
Seconded, with feeling!
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By: judith on April 4, 2011
at 3:20 PM
I was re-reading some of Helen’s comments, and I thought I’d share this excerpt from her post, “Oh Happy Day”, on November 3, 2010.
******************************
Margaret, happy days are here again. The skies above are blue again. It really is just too good to be true. The Republican gains delivered by the Tea Party are almost more than I could hope for. I only wish that lovely Witch in Delaware could have come along for the party as well.
Now let’s see. Where do I begin? Our taxes will soon be about zero percent so let’s start spending today to get this economy back on track. The government will shrink to a size somewhat equal to the size of our military which means Social Security has to go. Those of us who were smart enough to save for a rainy day will be high and dry… for at least a few months. And I got a good check-up from my doctor recently so I don’t need my Medicare… for at least a few months.
Now about that black man in the Oval Office. It will take a few days to get impeachment hearings underway, but until then I hear they are moving him out of the White House and into that little room at the top of the Washington Monument so he can’t cause any more trouble. Oh and Ms. Pelosi is out too. How dare she take on the Health Insurance Industry. Didn’t she realize people own stock in those companies?
Gays are no more. They all left, presumably to join the French Army. And teen pregnancies are a thing of the past. Teens will no longer have sex. Except the Palins. The Palins will abandon teen pregnancies as easily as a camel will pass through the eye of an early pregnancy test stick. No. The Palins will continue to give birth to abstinence only babies. That we know for sure.
Abortion? Well everyone knows that was just a luxury American women really couldn’t afford anyway. And government will now be small enough to actually fit inside a woman’s uterus…..
******************************
Yes, Helen, your commentary on the American political scene is what we come here for. I’m sure I speak for the bulk of the readers here in telling you how very much we look forward to your next post.
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By: Elsie on April 4, 2011
at 1:53 PM
Thanks for the kind words, PFessor. I had vague thoughts of ever smaller slices too, but you made it clear.
Another possibility is something like Kant’s merging rationalism and empiricism. No discussion of reality or knowledge can occur without knowing the role of the human mind in constructing reality and knowledge. Understanding constructs a single whole of experience.
Thus, eohipus, and mesohipus while different in size and appearance are still a horse. We are mature adults, but our essence from birth to death is unchanged. The passage of time merely lets us express different parts of ourselves. Therefore, the first undivided cell contains a soul which has not yet expressed itself.
Even assuming there is no soul, one can say the blue print for later self -awareness is with the first cell. Maybe as with a computer, the components of self awareness slowly assemble until the light comes on as quickly as when we push the computer on switch. If in later life layers of self awareness peel away, the person remains the same whole entity like a re -varnished table.
On the other hand maybe Heaven has a big turnstile with souls lined up behind it. As soon as another body becomes available, an angel yells “NEXT!”
I’d better stop before you think the effects of my head injury are worse than they were.
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By: James on April 4, 2011
at 9:50 AM
Poolman: “This cannibalism meme can really eat on you after awhile.”
Hell, even if nobody else acknowledges it, nice lick. ..grin..
On another front, re: M&H being a “left-leaning blog.” Undoubtedly true, but M&H’s strongest suit, IMHO, is that they are are real liberals, which is to say they are very tolerant of ALL points of view, unlike a few of their posters. (Don’t worry, that will come with maturity.) That is probably my biggest criticism of many on the Left; they claim to be the party of tolerance, but display very little of it. In my neck of the woods, we call those people bigots, and as a liberal myself in many ways, I don’t want them EVER claiming to speak for me.
If one’s argument is valid, it has little to fear from legitimate criticism; if it is not, one has the enviable opportunity to learn something. You can’t lose! If someone desires to maintain some semblance of credibility, it is important to acknowledge points well-made and criticisms well-founded. I don’t see much of that here, except for a very few posters like James, who freely acknowledges others’ good points.
James: “At what point does a fetus/baby have a soul? Is it there with the first cell, at birth, or somewhere between? What do Muslims and other religions believe and why?”
I see that as a very deep, very significant question, but it seems to lead to a paradox, like Zeno’s Paradox of Achilles and the Tortoise, when you slice the time segments thinner and thinner. (For us math geeks, this paradox is the thought experiment that eventually led to calculus) By that I mean, at which second does the fetus go from soulless to soulful? What about a half-second before that? A hundredth before that?
One answer might be that there is no soul. The brain is all just a big, marvelous analog computer. I came to this conclusion in medical school, watching patients slowly stroke out section after section of brain and become less and less themselves, until they eventually weren’t even conscious. Remember HAL, in 2001, a Space Odyssey? Remember how he changed as they turned off each section in turn? Like that…what do you think?
Tammyharper: You are quite a feisty ball of fire, aren’t you? It’s a real treat to see another who cannot be intimidated. If you want to communicate, pfesser53 at gmail dot com.
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By: PFesser on April 3, 2011
at 7:48 AM
I’m sorry about your health problems, PFessor. Pulmonary emboli got my attention. My cousin in law called his wife a day after my father’s funeral to tell her he was checking out of the hospital. An embolism got him about fifteen minutes later.
Yesterday while waiting for my wife to get new glasses, I rapidly walked through the mall for over an hour. Later, we ate a huge meal with our daughter and son-in law. I hope I broke even.
I needed your joke about your wife’s good memory and also the lightning rods. We have family emergency in California.
Last week, I went to a traveling medical examination show in Nebraska because for two years, snow storms had canceled it near home. The nurse/receptionist asked standard questions as we checked in. She left and another appeared. She asked a man. “Do you have a pace maker?” “No.” “Do you want one?” “Huh??” I liked it.
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By: James on April 3, 2011
at 7:47 AM
James noted:
“Ironically, I forgot to tell Jsri when he accused me of grievance mongering that before my head injury, I had edetic memory. I still remember things without trying, and I don’t need to use my MP3 player.”
My ex was like that, but her memory was even better than yours. She could even remember things that never happened.
I actually did exact a little revenge this year; ’twasn’t much, but I get the joke, even if nobody else knows about it:
We had lightning damage last summer and I installed lightning rods on the house.
http://www.lightningrodsupply.com/index_files/page0003.htm
I bought the glass balls in honor of her. The blue ones.
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By: PFesser on April 2, 2011
at 8:09 PM
Hi all –
I’m off from work a few days – laid up with a deep vein clot from sitting at my desk too long. Looks like 6 months of anticoagulants; I’ll voluntarily surrender my pilot’s license – hope to get it back in 6 – 10 months. Stupid, irresponsible act; I should have been up from my desk and walking at least once/hour. Oh, well. Life goes on. I think I had a few little pulmonary emboli, but good old lungs took it without much complaint – just a few twinges of pain and a little short of breath for a few minutes. I’ll give them a nice treat later – a nice long bike ride in the beautiful Virginia springtime sun. That sort of thing gives you a new appreciation of the gift that is life.
Anyway, a Tea Party friend sent me the following link:
I am told the official line from the Tennessee Historical Society is that it is probably apocryphal, but makes a good tale anyway. Cheers.
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By: PFesser on April 2, 2011
at 8:01 PM
Yes, the counter is still at zero.
Lori submitted a little throw away post everyone but I ignored. I believe it was one of the most important in a while. It deserves to be expanded.
According to Hot Air, a Rasmususen poll shows 57% of the public sides with the Republicans if we have a budget related shutdown. “Those who favor a shutdown seem to believe that forcing it and winning it will strike some sort of meaningful blow to the left’s resolve in defending Social Security and Medicare. Is that right-trimming a tiny bit of discretionary fat will lead to a Waterloo on mandatory spending?”
For Medicare : 84% of Democrats favor increasing or maintaining it.
83% Republicans
80% Tea Partiers
Social Security has similar numbers.
“What’s especially interesting is how deeply misinformed the public is about how much we spend on most federal programs…That’s significant because, theoretically, cutting more in this year’s budget per the House GOP bill might convince America’s misinformed voters that the ‘hard cuts’ had already been made. You can imagine the…Democratic ads: ‘we just cut a whole $61 billion. What more do these Republicans want?'”
We are posturing over pocket change.
Ironically, I forgot to tell Jsri when he accused me of grievance mongering that before my head injury, I had edetic memory. I still remember things without trying, and I don’t need to use my MP3 player. The play list is in my head.
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By: James on April 2, 2011
at 7:20 AM
I love the way Morrill writes. It reminds me a little of our gracious hosts.
I always come away from reading their articles with a smile and a renewed sense YES WE CAN and WE MUST!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/01/962467/-This-week-in-Republican:-uterus-edition
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By: lori on April 2, 2011
at 5:12 AM
im sure in your myopic world everything is really that cut and dry poolman. I stand by what I say and who I say I am. If #1 that isn’t good enough for you..to bad and #2 if what I am and am not is really that important to you, and you would prefer to focus on me rather than some more interesting subject matter, might I suggest you troll elsewhere.
Take note…the counter is still at zero
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By: tammyharper on April 1, 2011
at 8:26 PM
You either stand by your comments or they don’t represent your views.
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By: poolman on April 1, 2011
at 6:22 PM
Hey tammyharpler, cute babies, remind me of Fauxnoise, sadly in need of LOTS of editing. A little like you.
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By: HRH sofia EQ on April 1, 2011
at 6:21 PM
Ms harper, aside from that last video, all your previous posts I just scrolled back up and re-read are judgments against others that you just stated I am in no position to make about you. My judgment of you is based on your comments. So unless you recant your comments, or if your comments don’t reflect your beliefs, I stand by my statement. And it is the only thing I base my statement on.
Bottom line, you either
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By: poolman on April 1, 2011
at 6:20 PM
poolman, your leading with a false assumption. I am not here to post to your set standards. I am here for my own personal entertainment and learning experience at my pace my way.
You know you, and you are very qualified to make that judgement. You however do not know me. You can spout all the bullshyt you want and make whatever deductions you like but I am not on trial nor will I let you put me on trial. I am who I say I am and if that is not enough for you then there is not much I can do for you.
Fact of the matter is I have made recently 2 very valid points based on recent stories about Democrats. The first shows how the left is willing to turn a blind eye when it suits them. The latter how they will stoop to any level to further their cause. If me pointing this out bothers you then again there is not much I can do for you.
I also pointed out the plan by the Republican Governor to grant himself unprecedented emergency powers when he considers a town to be in financial trouble.
fyi. Telling someone that they are not what they say they are is not a sign of respect. Until you change your mind set don’t expect my respect anytime soon.
To appease poolman’s delicate sensibilities here is that aforementioned video about the Governor from Michigan.
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By: tammyharper on April 1, 2011
at 5:53 PM
Ms harper. You are so sure of “how the left works”, and yet you came to this board with the claim of being an independent with a tendency toward conservatism. Why then are your points the same tired and over-used far right wing jabs at liberals and progressives? This obviously is a left-leaning blog and always has been. Take it from someone who is truly an independent voter – you are a right wing “conservative”. Unfortunately that “conservative” moniker is no longer an accurate description of most republican ideology since theocrats and capitalist shills have for the most part hijacked the Grand Ole Party.
Aside from the Bill Cooper video, I haven’t read anything new or enlightening in your posts. They just seem to be a continual whining over how unfair or uncouth you think the “left” is. This isn’t welcoming of real debate, if that is what you honestly want. First, don’t assume everyone here is of the same belief/mindset, just because this is a liberal blog. Second, show respect if you expect any.
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By: poolman on April 1, 2011
at 5:24 PM
how disingenuous Mikat . This was meant clearly as a joke. But it is an absolutly stupendous example of how the left works. They know there is nothing in this story but they run with it because they think that dumb Americans will look at the headline and not dig deep enough to see the deceit. This is why the left can never ben trusted with power. You should be ashamed of yourself Mikat
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By: tammyharper on April 1, 2011
at 4:45 PM
MIkat scary isn’t it???
As delurker says “crazy as a football bat’! LOL LOL
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By: lori on April 1, 2011
at 4:44 PM
You deserve an “I told you so” tammyharper.
Lori, I don’t have time to to check the link now. I will later. Whatever he did, that person is wrong. However, when the left addresses its own violence and abuse I will care.
Re personal attacks from some people. Thank you, Lori, for “fighting fair.”
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By: James on April 1, 2011
at 4:25 PM
yet another rebiblican wanting to force his “beliefs” on all of us . http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/huckabee-says-he-wants-americans-be-indoct
If we would only do what he wants, we would all be so much happier!
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By: Mikat on April 1, 2011
at 4:16 PM
and the count stands exactly at zero, who could have predicted? why me!
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By: tammyharper on April 1, 2011
at 3:29 PM
Another lovely T per darling shows us, one more time, his dark side.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/01/962270/–I’m-so-pissed-about-this,-I’m-spitting-nails!!!!!
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By: lori on April 1, 2011
at 1:18 PM
I’m not sure some of the people on this board have even heard the story of the woman in Wisconsin. That is sad too.
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By: James on April 1, 2011
at 12:54 PM
Jean raised an interesting point when she wrote “perhaps some contributors make assumptions without having knowledge of others’ backgrounds or qualifications.” She seems to say we should give more consideration to someone’s opinion simply because of the degrees behind his/her name. I agree if a lawyer, doctor, farmer, or someone else with specialized knowledge of a specific topic opines.
Otherwise, a person’s background means nothing except to an elitist.
Jean, I “tooted my own horn” because people like you called me a troll, etc and tried to vote me off the site when you didn’t like my opinions or the way I stood up to you all. I wasn’t seeking sympathy. I was telling you why I was more determined than you. Moreover, my conclusions were closer to reality than yours. Of course, I happily remind you of the irony.
Remember, someone who claimed to be the nephew who runs this forum addressed the troll debate last June. He said on a moderated site, several of you, not I, would have been banned or suspended because of your attacks.
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By: James on April 1, 2011
at 11:23 AM
It is what we call the sad truth. It concerns me that Dems are willing to overlook things like this because it is within their own party. I will count the number of Libs on this board who say this person did wrong and should be removed from office. Shouldn’t need many fingers.
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By: tammyharper on April 1, 2011
at 11:01 AM
That was hilarious, and it wasn’t even an April Fools joke.
Katherine R. Windels of Cross Plains, Wisconsin was charged with sending email death threats to Republican officer holders. She should also be charged with stupidity for sending death threats from her home computer. If she had been a Tea Party member the story would have been at the top of the list.
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By: James on April 1, 2011
at 10:31 AM
President Obama accepted an award for government transparency – in a meeting that was closed to both press and public,
….
….really?
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By: tammyharper on March 31, 2011
at 11:17 PM
Eb and flow, Lori. I agree the Tea Partyers could not sustain their earlier flash and enthusiasm. I didn’t even know they were planning a demonstration. Last year, the internet was filled with messages about protests. More than bad weather kept them away.
I have mentioned on this site that discretionary spending is not out of control. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and other entitlements and possibly military spending are our main problem as factcheck said. David Stockman’s over wrought statements for effect sound interesting.
You should worry. I have agreed with you twice in one evening.
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By: James on March 31, 2011
at 8:00 PM
Discretionary spending out of control? Just the facts please. 😉
http://factcheck.org/2011/03/stockmans-fiery-rhetoric/
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By: lori on March 31, 2011
at 5:22 PM
opps looks like the Tpers rally pooped out!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/31/961938/-Fox-blames-weather-for-weak-turnout-at-tea-party-rally
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By: lori on March 31, 2011
at 3:57 PM
delurkergurl, I’m usually a mild mannered fellow, but most people don’t appreciate personal attacks. As I wrote, I will forgive and forget what anyone does if he she/stops. As for men, and their contests, I blame testosterzone. Women fight too though.
The old joke is one boy gives another boy a bloody nose. A girl gives another girl an eating disorder.
Thanks to Jean for bragging about her and her husband’s considerable intellectual accomplishments. She should be proud. History is not her strong suit, but I respect her dogged effort to make sense of the past. I’ve had to correct her historical stories several times but at least she tries.
Thanks also to Jean for admitting she is a bigot and elitist. Those traits were self evident, but confirmation was good.
You’re pretty good tammyharper, even when you are outnumbered.
alaskapi, I like your blog owner’s statement. In that spirit, I have a question which might diffuse fights for a day.
This began as a discussion about abortion and related issues . We know doctors note guide posts marking the evolution of a cell to a viable baby.
At what point does a fetus/baby have a soul? Is it there with the first cell, at birth, or somewhere between? What do Muslims and other religions believe and why?
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By: James on March 31, 2011
at 3:29 PM
When will you run for office?
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By: Theresa on March 31, 2011
at 3:28 PM
Well now that I waded all the way in here, I guess I’ll have to leave a comment. FWIW,
HELEN WE MISS YOU!!!! ANYBODY HOME?
There. Back to your regularly scheduled programming. BTW, you might want to change the channel. This cannibalism meme can really eat on you after awhile.
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By: poolman on March 30, 2011
at 11:53 PM
Fifty years ago, Spencer Tracy said a mouthful, and he did it so well, in this clip from “Inherit the Wind”:
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2011/03/fanaticism_and.html
“Fanaticism and ignorance is forever busy and needs feeding…”
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By: elsie09 on March 30, 2011
at 9:43 PM
Pi,
You have incredible resources at your disposal, and it’s always fun to see where you suggest we look next. I’ve never heard of http://fallacyfiles.org/ but I see that I am going to want to bookmark that site. Thanks a bunch.
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By: elsie09 on March 30, 2011
at 8:32 PM
thanks for that I guess alaskapi ..coming from you..that means almost nothing
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By: tammyharper on March 30, 2011
at 8:31 PM
oh for crap’s sake tammyharper-
you are starting to come across as a walking talking exercise of just about every fallacy humans fall into with each other
http://fallacyfiles.org/
hippie commie menatlly ill very very liberal wierdo Pi
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By: alaskapi on March 30, 2011
at 7:46 PM
This to me is the most accurate portrayal of 2 liberals having as close to a substantive conversation as they are able to do.
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By: tammyharper on March 30, 2011
at 7:36 PM
oh for crap’s sake-
Helen said a long time ago :
“NEW, New Rules:
If you are not for me, you are against me. I’ll get over it. Now kindly return the favor.”
https://margaretandhelen.wordpress.com/2008/10/28/what-was-i-thinking-when-i-called-sarah-palin-a-bitch/
How’s about following the blog owner’s lead here?
I don’t give a damn if people disagree with me or each other. I do care that the baby games of name calling and one-up-manship get in the way of eating pie, drinking tea, and hearing what people think.
It doesn’t really matter whether I agree with anyone here nor whether they agree with me. I rarely change my mind on basics anymore but I do enjoy trying to see things from different angles.
Most days I learn something or other about someplace I’ll never get to , a point of view I haven’t considered ,etc until we hit these horsepunky flinging sprees.
What the hell?
signed,
hippie commie mentally ill VERY VERY liberal Pi
————-
Dear Helen-
thank you for having us all in.
Sorry about losing my temper and my language.
Pi
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By: alaskapi on March 30, 2011
at 6:31 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
I have always thought it was good manners to address my comments to the people here at M&H’s as a whole. Generally, they have been and are a congenial group. Perhaps some contributors make assumptions without having any knowledge of others’ backgrounds or qualifications. Those assumptions reveal more about the attitudes and character of the commenter than the content. Most of us have not been that interested in tooting our own horns to impress others or gain sympathy.
I would like to thank jsri for coming back and defending my honor. It is my turn. I happen to know that jsri is a fine gentleman. FYI he has a PhD and has had a distinguished career as a professor of Molecular Biology and then as an Administrator. As such, I’m sure he has had his fair share of chemistry courses. I also know one of his responsibilities was advising students based on their qualifications. His wife also has a PhD with impressive career credentials.
I have told you very little about ‘boy toy’s’ educational background or professional career. I didn’t think anyone would be interested or that it was anyone’s business. I have mostly told you stories about our adventures. My Background? In my first life, I was a concert pianist. In my second life, I was and am a wife, mother and now a grandmother. I have always considered that my primary purpose in life. However, I have given private lessons and done master classes off and on from time to time. In my third life from 1968-74 I studied and worked at three different California Universities in Research into the Neuroscience of Physio-Psych. I was doing such things as implanting electrodes into the hypothalamus of the brains of living lab rats. It was cutting edge science at the time. In my fourth life since our retirement with the leisure time to devote to my avocations, I have spent the past 10 years or so studying History, especially the Political implications thereof.
What am I going to do in my fifth life? I’m not sure yet. What I am sure of though is that I’m not going to waste it reading inane, poorly written troll drivel on this blog. You see, I am a bigot. I am against incredibly boring and tedious-arrogant-pompous-egotists-racists-sexists-ageists-blue-eyed-white-supremecists-mysogynistic-blowhards with nothing of substance to say. This is why I have abandon M&H’s blog in favor of others who have similar interests and believe it or not outstanding credentials and qualification beyond being nothing but li-bral arts ladies and other such nonentities.
I am also an elitist. One of our closest friends is a PhD from Columbia economist in a very narrow field, working all over the world with the World Bank. When we talk about the National economy, he just smiles and says, “I know nothing about that. It’s not my specialty.” Most professionals in any field of endeavor are not inclined to expound outside their areas of expertise.
We are currently plowing our way through a just published book by another lifelong friend, a PhD head of the Philosophy Department at a prestigious eastern university, mentoring and advising PhD candidates. It is an 800 page tome that he has devoted over 40 years of his life working on. It is a little esoteric for us, mostly because we don’t have very much background in philosophy. I mean, we haven’t had much time to ponder “the “willing will and the willed will” or the “thinking thought and the thought thought”. It works better than Ambien! Occasionally we both nod off mid-sentence. He is actually a really fun guy though.
We are also receiving e mails from very reliable sources around the world regarding the radioactive repercussions from the damaged reactors in Japan. They are quite informative although as nuclear scientists, not one of them has inferred that the solutions can be made on the back of a napkin. One (with humor) advised us, since we live in Hawaii and we can be looking forward to Condoleeza Rice’s mushroom cloud, to eat miso soup with tofu in it to rid our systems of radiation. I think we’ll pass on that one. We have tried it here with Asian friends in the past. To me, I think it tastes like lumpy dishwater. We can just learn to live with the radiation.
Au revoir.
Jean
P. S. I think I’ll be spending more time reading Jim Wright. Insightful, and entertaining and above all interesting. He is a fine writer with keen perceptions. Right up there with Helen’s posts!!!
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By: Jean on March 30, 2011
at 1:57 PM
maybe you need a higher dose elsie09, that or your stroking out on us.
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By: tammyharper on March 30, 2011
at 1:50 PM
froth and spittle, lies, obfuscation, smoke and mirrors….baggers, birthers, theocrats, and the twisted “logic” of “some fool named noah”.
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By: elsie09 on March 30, 2011
at 1:48 PM
lol what twisted logic. I hope that comforts you at night as you and your kind rob your grandchildren’s future
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By: tammyharper on March 30, 2011
at 1:40 PM
Helen doesn’t rant.
Quoting Helen isn’t ranting.
Incoherent froth and spittle? Now, THAT’S ranting.
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By: elsie09 on March 30, 2011
at 1:34 PM
elsie09 when the meds kick in I hope you realize I was referring to your inchoerant rantings, not anyone else.
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By: tammyharper on March 30, 2011
at 1:24 PM
Helen, the progressive owner of this blog, commented about “some fool …named Noah”.
She reacted to “his not so well thought out diatribe” by admonishing him:
“Noah dear. Stick to football. And Mrs. Noah? Slap him for me. He really should spend more time tending to you rather than writing to me.”
Nothing incoherent there; Helen tells it like it is. Her words are quite clear to any sane person.
On the other hand, I like what the guy said the other day about Teabaggers’ Tourettes — it’s also known as “incoherent froth and spittle”.
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By: elsie09 on March 30, 2011
at 1:12 PM
elsie09 take those meds and try again, talk about incoherent rantings.
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By: tammyharper on March 30, 2011
at 12:53 PM
Yeah, Lori, Mikat and Crypto…
I’m called a “bitch”, with the terrible failing of not being able to converse in “civilized discourse”, and then tammyharper/noah spews forth with “insanity, rage and hate”. That seems to be the pot calling the kettle black.
Or, maybe it’s projection.
Or, more likely, it’s just more bullying along with that smoke and mirrors stuff, in a poor attempt to distract the progressives who come here to visit on Helen’s PROGRESSIVE blog.
Ooohhhh……look at that shiny thing over there…….
Distractions, lies, bullying…. We know how they think, these same old-same old blowhards, and us “libruls” refuse to give in to their obfuscations.
Even Helen finally had enough and wrote this post about “some fool …named Noah”, “in his not so well thought out diatribe”, telling him:
“Noah dear. Stick to football. And Mrs. Noah? Slap him for me. He really should spend more time tending to you rather than writing to me.”
It’s just amazingly funny how tammyharper/noah/whatever all sound the same.
And didja notice that when noah got quiet, “tammyharper” started up the same ad hominem attacks?
Whatever.
Sanity=Liberal, i.e., Progressives, like Helen
Insanity=baggers, birthers, GOP, theocrats, corporatists, etc., etc., etc.
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By: elsie09 on March 30, 2011
at 12:48 PM
cryptoclearance. the only value this board has is that it is a history lesson to remind us what you and your kind did to our country decades ago and how far we have come since that time. We need to remember the lessons of the past so as not to repeat them. Thankfully this geriatric gathering of liberals won’t be around long enough to do much lasting damage. You hate people like James and Pfesse because they blow your weak and fallacy ridden arguments out of the water. Before they came you could make any absurd claim and have no one to call you on your ridiculous line of thinking.
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By: tammyharper on March 30, 2011
at 12:40 PM
>>Progressives, like Helen, know all about shallow arguments based on bullying and misinformation. SANE Americans understand that the rants of teabaggers and bullies, theocrats and corporatists, are just distractions, lies, obfuscation, obstruction, and smoke and mirrors. <<
The ranters apparently have no where else to demonstrate the qualities you have listed above. What they do not understand (how can one who watches Fux "news") is their "conservative" agenda will bite them in the ass.
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By: cryptoclearance on March 30, 2011
at 12:33 PM
OMG LIBERALS!!!!
so now women are bitches? You are one sick jerk.
Lori: I think the incognito posters have some real misogynistic issues. Bring it on you fools.
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By: cryptoclearance on March 30, 2011
at 12:23 PM
Mikat: These people you have addressed are just what you have written: ignorant and unable to have or apply critical thinking/research skills. They post here because they actually get some sort of response. They seen to get some sick satisfaction from it. oh yeah, and these people reproduce!
By what has been written by them, they are so stupid that they really don’t realize that their “conservative” rantings will bite them in the ass. Ignorant. hate, fear mongering and racism.
Lets get back to what this PROGRESSIVE and INTELLIGENT M&H blog is all about. Ignore the idiots. It looks like M&H certainly do!
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By: cryptoclearance on March 30, 2011
at 12:16 PM
Mikat thanks for proving my point…insanity, rage and hate, the true liberal attributes.
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By: tammyharper on March 30, 2011
at 12:15 PM
LOL LOL LOL Elsie, yes the nerve of us progressives posting on a progressive’s personal blog! Good grief what are we thinking?
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By: lori on March 30, 2011
at 11:58 AM
Tammy,
can you spell HYPOCRITE
My GOD woman…(Noah) do you ever do anything but regurgitate Faux noise!!! Get your head out of your A$$ and do some research. Or at the very least educate yourself with the FACTS. remember those? Don’t bother answering me. we already know what you will say and how you will say it… Blah, Blah, Blah. I will not stoop to read anyhting you vomit again. OMG, I pity your children!!!!
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By: Mikat on March 30, 2011
at 11:51 AM
“Jesus was the ultimate liberal.
Liberalism is what sanity looks like.
No wonder Neocons don’t understand it.”
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By: elsie09 on March 30, 2011
at 11:40 AM
opps forgot to cite the article too.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/30/961519/-CNN-poll:-Tea-party-unfavorables-at-all-time-high
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By: lori on March 30, 2011
at 11:36 AM
Oh, I forgot….that was NOAH, who is the whatever here…
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By: elsie09 on March 30, 2011
at 11:34 AM
“Another perfect example of why you have to be mentally wrong in the head to be a liberal.” This is a PROGRESSIVE’S blog….So, tell us again…who is “mentally wrong in the head”?
Apparently, Noel/tammyharper/whatever, you choose to ignore a number of things, with the greatest one being that Helen, the owner, blogs about the failings of conservatives.
Progressives, like Helen, know all about shallow arguments based on bullying and misinformation. SANE Americans understand that the rants of teabaggers and bullies, theocrats and corporatists, are just distractions, lies, obfuscation, obstruction, and smoke and mirrors.
Helen, the progressive who owns this blog, has humorously exposed a multiplicity of failings of rightwingers for all of us to see. Unfortunately, there will always be those who choose NOT to see or understand, and then spew their rightwing blather in some failed attempt to replace Helen’s progressive thoughts on Helen’s own progressive blog.
So, continue your epic fail to distract the progressives who come here to enjoy Helen’s work. Your arguments and insults are all just noise to us, since we UNDERSTAND what your purposes are while trespassing here on Helen’s blog to argue your empty points of “merit”.
Long live Helen and her progressive voice.
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By: elsie09 on March 30, 2011
at 11:34 AM
An interesting tper poll:
ttp://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/images/03/29/rel4l.pdf
Do you think CNN will finally stop covering these unpopular loons with breathless adoration? LOL
This poll shows the lowest favorable number and highest unfavorable number since CNN started polling the t pers.
The biggest t pers ratings drop was with the $50K group. It now has a -13 in fav minus unfav for tea party, and also show a -9 with Republicans, 0 for Democrats (in other words, favs equal unfavs.)
It will be interesting to see how this effects Bohners budget decisions. Stay tuned!
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By: lori on March 30, 2011
at 11:28 AM
elsie09, you call names, use stereotypes because you lack the intellectual capacity to argue points of merit. That is what makes you a bitch in my book.
Cynthia, I feel I already know the answer to this, but could you possibly be anymore petty?
Another perfect example of why you have to be mentally wrong in the head to be a liberal. People like elsie and Cynthia cannot accept people like James and PFesse as they are. They cannot engage in civilized discourse with them without having to try and point out what they consider to be faults, then go on endless rants highlighting those faults. It is sad you cannot take the higher ground and try and understand them instead of persecute them. Find out why they think as they do rather than attack them.
Personally I would suggest ignoring these throwbacks to an earlier day when people of color knew their place and a woman’s place was in the home. They do not have the ability to embrace or try to understand change or people that are different to themselves. You are invading their little place of hate, and as long as you do so they will forever despise you for it.
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By: tammyharper on March 30, 2011
at 10:16 AM
In spite of what some would have us to believe, this is NOT some conservative’s rag; it’s Helen’s blog.
You know…HELEN, a strong, progressive writer, who wrote in “Higher Ground” on November 10, 2010:
***
“…You live and you learn. And at my age you learn too much. For instance, I have learned that when Democrats over-reach, we end up providing health insurance coverage for children who have pre-existing conditions. When Republicans over-reach, we go to war.
“When a liberal activist judge over-reaches, a disenfranchised group of Americans have their constitutional rights restored. When a conservative activist judge over-reaches, the country’s elections get handed to corporations on a silver platter.
“Sour grapes? Maybe. I never said I was without prejudice. In fact, I have openly admitted to being a bitch. But the difference between my being a bitch and Sarah Palin being a bitch is huge. When I am a bitch, a few people get a good laugh over an old lady’s blog writing. When Sarah Palin is a bitch, some of God’s most beautiful handiwork gets reduced to a line item on Exxon’s annual report….”
***
If “the mood” truly has changed on this blog, then it’s because of comments that are not true to the owner’s bent for progressive politics. Conservative blowhards attempt to bully their way through what once was a funny, relatively calm, daily read and then high-five each disruption like juvenile delinquents.
I have no doubt that the OWNER of this blog would not hesitate to call a teabagger by that name if she so desired. It’s her rules…although THAT may be difficult for bullies to understand. However, the SANE progressives among us understand we are visiting her progressive blog and need to mind our manners in accordance with what we understand HELEN’S rules to be.
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By: elsie09 on March 30, 2011
at 9:59 AM
M & H,
“There’s no need to fear, Underdog is here!”
During the day we find Underdog, a mild mannered doctor, fixing broken souls. But at night his lab coat transforms into a mighty cape giving him super powers and off he fltts to M&H to slay the BBBs that are infecting their blog. (WTF?, is really a good use of ones time and talent??) Anyway………..
When help is needed, I am not slow,
For it’s hip-hip-hip and AWAY I GO!!!
Not bird, nor plane, nor even frog,
It’s just little old me…….Underdog.
I am a hero who never fails;
I cannot be bothered with such details.
When bullies on this blog appear,
And mock those that they should fear,
And bully all who see or hear,
The cry goes up both far and near for…
Underdog! (Underdog!)
Underdog! (Underdog!)
Speed of lightning,
Roar of thunder,
Fighting all who mock or wonder,
Underdog. (Underdog!)
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 30, 2011
at 9:45 AM
Good grief, I wish you people would step back and get an objective look at yourselves. Why does everything have to become a pissing contest? (As a female, I really never understood the point of those… 😉 ) Why is it always necessary to take the hostility up a notch? “You were an ass first! I wasn’t an ass until you were!” That still makes you an ass, get it? There is nothing remarkable by being able to piss higher, farther, wider, or more artfully. In the end, it’s still piss.
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By: delurkergurl on March 30, 2011
at 8:48 AM
jsri, as PFessor wrote, you truly are out of your depth. You ought to read “The Art of War” or “Rules for Radicals.” This basically unmoderated message board is like a small town or business office. Some people are allies, some are enemies, and some don’t care. Grievance collecting is how one knows the difference.
You have revealed far too much of yourself, your vanity and motivations. I could use them against you, and I learned by keeping score. Before you launch an attack, you need to watch your victim and understand his/her strengths and weaknesses. If you had, you’d know that you can’t touch me. That’s why I wrote “tried” to insult me.
You harp on my incoherent writing style because its all you have. I cheerfully agree. So what else do you have to show me, you big talking man?
I’m sorry your family has had health problems. I` respect you for your achievements and how you recovered from early hardships. But we all have free choice. Personal adversity is no excuse for mean behavior. You should have been strong enough to finish the “fight” you started in December or better yet, kept personal attacks to yourself.
I don’t hold grudges. Treat me well, and I will be nice to you. Pay attention. Several people and I have cordial exchanges when before we were hostile. We even agree on some things. You and I could be the same.
As PFessor wrote, the mood on this site has changed. Adjust.
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By: James on March 30, 2011
at 7:59 AM
JSRI… we will need you during the next election cycle! love you! xo
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By: lori on March 30, 2011
at 3:56 AM
Mikat, a page out of Karl Rove’s play book. Repeat a lie enough times and eventually it becomes the truth.
Or … the infamous… people are more apt to believe a big lie, the more ridiculous the better. (Of course I’m paraphrasing Hitler in Mein Kampf)
Same, same same, tactics….
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By: lori on March 30, 2011
at 3:48 AM
Pfesser:
Your response on March 17, 2011 at 4:51 AM was a patronizing put-down, to Jean, typical of many of your responses to comments on this blog. While your information is sometimes useful, you can’t seem to resist sticking in the knife and twisting it on the way out. It’s an attitude thing and I’m sure the victims find it appalling.
I find it interesting that you pass yourself off as a physician. My wife and I, at our age, are very well acquainted with physicians, too many of them, both good and bad, yet I have never come across one with a superiority complex to match yours. I suspect that everyone on this blog knows how intellectually superior you are but I’d suspect that’s also a cover for having the bedside manner of a cockroach.
You broke into this blog about a year ago and immediately started throwing your weight around accusing people of blowing smoke up one another’s asses yet here you are with your cadre of like minded interlopers playing kiss ass on epic scale.
And while you’re just warming up, I’m cooling down. That gives you an opportunity once more to show what an intellectual powerhouse you are. Too bad I won’t get to see it because I’m out of here for good. Between my wife’s medical needs, my volunteer work and family responsibilities I have no time for this crap anymore.
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By: jsri on March 29, 2011
at 10:12 PM
I am neither right or left. to me both sides have issues and sometimes I feel the fight between the two sides is only a distraction. That said were I to be forced to chose a side I would probably go right because at least you know where they stand. This board is the perfect example of why I could never be on the left side of the isle. I have seen countless example of situational ethics on this boards coming from the left. People like James and PFesser, while I don’t always agree with them are at least consistent in their beliefs and I can at least respect that.
I put 95% of everyone else in the “do whatever it takes” to win category. Morals only seem to come into play when it empowers your argument, or diminishes another s argument, they are nothing more than a tool to use to reach an end goal. I see bigotry, intolerance, hate, hypocrisy, double standards, everything we shouldn’t be.
How we win should be as important as winning itself. I see the left wanting to not only win, but would also in a heartbeat send the right side packing from this country were they given the option. I think they forget that the right are Americans citizens too. This so called compassionate party, is only compassionate for those that are like them, and they have no room in their hearts for anyone else. They way the left talks about the tea party, all citizens of this great country mind you, would lead you to believe that they were speaking about members of Al-Qaeda.
I don’t mind spirited disagreement, but the left and those on this board take it to the point of rage, and in the end serves no one well.
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By: tammyharper on March 29, 2011
at 9:25 PM
James
As usual you are incoherent. That’s probably why I “threw in the towel” – not because you won some trivial argument but most likely because I had no idea what you are talking about. You said that I “tried” to insult you three or four times last December and then gave up. If I said something like that it was because my wife was undergoing some critical medical tests and I was in no mood to spend my time carrying on a feud with likes of you.
BTW if you keep score like you did for forty years then you are a grievance collector. And believe me if I want to “try” to insult you I can actually do it. But I’m damn well not going to substitute for your psychiatrist.
Actually I try to stay away from this site only because it takes so long to open with all the nonsense spread across it. It just isn’t worth coming here anymore. Your only coherent comment was to TammyHopper
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By: jsri on March 29, 2011
at 8:31 PM
jsri opined:
“A couple weeks ago, Auntie Jean asked a pretty straightforward question about the effect of using seawater to cool the reactor core of the breached nuclear power stations in Japan. Instead of an informative answer, she got a basic chemistry lesson and was roundly insulted, a typical mysogynistic response. ”
James wrote to jsri:
“I also think the PFessor was just trying to help. You read too much into it.”
I think so, too. On both counts. No insult meant to Jean at all. I actually enjoy Jean’s history lessons; as someone with more chemistry class hours under his belt than you have in your entire degree, jsri, am I unfit to return the favor to Miss Jean? She is clearly someone genuinely interested in learning and asked if anyone had a clue of what was going on. I did, somewhat, and had the expertise to research the rest. Perhaps a little willingness to learn would do nobody any harm, including yourself. (BTW, I must have missed that “misogynistic” part; could you be a dear and point it out to me? — or is that part of the “anybody who doesn’t agree with me is….racist, sexist, age-ist – take your pick…)?
Sometimes, hotshot, a little self-examination is in order. I will agree that M&H has changed over the past year, but not in the way you think. In my view it has gone from a circle-jerk of about five schoolyard bullies whose greatest satisfaction is to tell each other how smart they all are and gang up on anyone with the temerity to disagree, to a place where well, they are a little bit afraid – afraid to expose their raw bigotry because they know they will be called out – EVERY TIME. A place where those with opinions not straight down the Democrat mainline can be heard without fear.
I’ll let you in on a little secret: In 1984, after I straightened a bullying physician out in no uncertain terms, an old X-ray tech once told me, “You know, Doc, bullies really bring out the predator in you, don’t they?” You’re goddamned right they do; it was a casual perusal of this blog and a general disgust with the BBB’s bullying that made me decide to hang out for a while. Honestly, I’ve had a ball.
Which brings us to today. Several of the BBB, as I like to call it, have been unable to take the heat, so they got out of (in) the kitchen. You, of course, would like to continue the play but unlike Donna (for whom I have a grudging admiration, actually) and some of the others, you are really no challenge – you are out of your depth in a car-puddle.
So don’t tempt me, little boy. I am just getting warmed up.
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By: PFesser on March 29, 2011
at 8:08 PM
elsie09, you can cherry pick all of the conservative hostility you want. I can do the same with leftists. It is a waste of time. Both sides have crazies and hot heads.
I think you used the term “tea bagger” recently. A line in “The President’s Analyst” applies. “Don’t say chinks. It’s bigoted”. So is “tea bagger.”
tammyharper, how much do you want to bet that you are also one of the people jsri wishes someone like Jim Wright would drive away?
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By: James on March 29, 2011
at 4:24 PM
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/fox-news-executive-admits-his-attempt-link-o
yet another Faux noise lier shaken out of the tree. How many times do you have to be lied to before you start doing your own fact checking?
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By: Mikat on March 29, 2011
at 4:12 PM
jsri, I am not whining, I am warning you. I explained it to delurkergurl. Back in the service, I was used as bait to catch some bad guys. They tried to kill me. One night they tortured me. As a result, I have a slight physical disability. Other things happened too.
One of the side effects is when I am besieged such as on a liberal message board. I react as if I was under attack again. I project a combat-like situation into something different from what it origionally was. In my mind, long dead men and I repeat our skirmishes. If you really want the details, I will give them, but it would be a long post.
That is my warning. If you attack my views, or how I write, I don’t mind. When you attack me as a person, I bite . Last December, you tried to insult me. I responded successfully three or four times. You threw in the towel and gave up because you wrote I was better at insults than you. Then, you disappeared for quite a while. It wasn’t the first time.
I keep score, not because I am a grievance collector but to collect your foibles. My keeping score helped me survive forty years ago. If I am lucky you might unwittingly reveal something which lets me glimpse the inside of your head. A few well-placed words can inflict more pain than a fist.
If you are nice to me, I am nice to you.
Since you used “trolls” and “manure” in the same sentence, I will leave you with this. An apparently effete and elitist man such as yourself may dream of a white knight to do what you can’t. You may pray that he rescues you from the likes of me, but don’t bet on Jim Wright. At alaskapi’s suggestion, I read his blog. We are alike in some ways. Based on past history, I think we would get along with each other.
In case you haven’t noticed, like Jim Wright, I refuse to back down, and like him, I am supremely self confident.
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By: James on March 29, 2011
at 3:56 PM
used to be a little bit of a fan of Jim Wright until I read that piece of work. Guess his true colors are out for all to see.
10 days into the Obama war in Libya and we are $550mil in the hole. Wonder what congress thinks, or better yet wonder if they will be asked.
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By: tammyharper on March 29, 2011
at 3:15 PM
alskapi, I read some of Jim Wright’s posts, and you are right. I like his writing with the exception of the last one.
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By: James on March 29, 2011
at 2:29 PM
re: elsie09 on March 29, 2011 at 11:20 AM
Jim Wright is a force to be reckoned with. He refuses to back down.
Too bad he wasn’t a reader of H&M a year ago. He would have cleared the trolls out of here like so much barnyard manure.
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By: jsri on March 29, 2011
at 2:25 PM
James on March 29, 2011 at 10:37 AM
Don’t whine about hard times to me. It doesn’t wash. I grew up during the depression, watched our house get repossessed and came within a day of getting sent off to an orphanage. For several years food was a luxury and forget about non-essentials, they didn’t exist.
And I don’t understand how mud slinging would lead to death threats. Your writing about them is so obscure that I have no idea why anyone would be interested in them.
As far as retaliation is concerned, I’m not a grievance collector like you so I have no record of any attack on you or any counterattack. As for backing down, I have no idea what you are talking about. But again, most of your posts are so rambling and convoluted and apt to be ignored it’s no wonder I might have missed something.
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By: jsri on March 29, 2011
at 1:37 PM
I second that Crypto.. I often wonder exactly who would “listen” to that sick puppy. On second thought I don’t think I would! LOL LOL He is oneeeeeeeeee sick pup.
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By: lori on March 29, 2011
at 1:07 PM
Crypto, there are so many haters and crazies to choose from that maybe Jim had to draw the line somewhere in order to come to a stopping point on his post!
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By: elsie09 on March 29, 2011
at 12:56 PM
>>Every single one of those hates I listed in America were taken directly, directly, from Yahoo, from TEA party chat rooms, from transcriptions of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh and Anne Coulter <<
One apparently had been over looked. The hate, fear mongering idiot Savage. What a sick SOB.
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By: cryptoclearance on March 29, 2011
at 12:01 PM
Some background on Jim Wright’s post about America, from “America Explained”, March 25, in his own words:
***
As always, a rather large number of folks read what I wrote and then decided that I must be a) a very angry man, who b) hates America.
I don’t suppose there is anything I can do to convince these people otherwise, even if I were to bake them a plate of cookies and sing “You Are My Sunshine” accompanied by flying bunnies on kazoo and banjo while giving them a baby oil neck massage as they watched Glenn Beck…
…Ask yourself this, when was the last time you heard Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, or Glenn Beck spend an entire show talking about the things they love about America? When was the last time Sean Hannity, Karl Rove, Ron Paul, Michelle Bachman, or Sharon Angle went an entire hour on the air without describing something about America that they hate? When was the last time you read any article on FoxNews, Yahoo, or a Tea Party forum that didn’t include a comment section full of descriptions of things conservative commenters hate? Be honest. Every single one of those hates I listed in America were taken directly, directly, from Yahoo, from TEA party chat rooms, from transcriptions of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh and Anne Coulter – and I could have made that list a lot longer. A lot longer.
***
“Every single one of those hates I listed in America were taken directly, directly, from Yahoo, from TEA party chat rooms, from transcriptions of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh and Anne Coulter –”
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By: elsie09 on March 29, 2011
at 11:20 AM
alskapi, I trust you, so if you think I should give Jim Wright another chance, I will when I get time. We had more snow last night, and I have work to do before I ski on it again. I don’t have to “think” that screed was bigotry. It was according to a dictionary definition. That article reminded me of the first time I saw porn.
One of my Air Force friends bought a black and white 8mm movie film in Mexico when he was on leave. It was against the rules so ten or twelve of us watched it serepticiously in a darkened room. Some of us were still in our teens, and eager to watch forbidden pleasures.
Our voyaristic impulses soon turned to disgust and one or two left before the ordeal was over. I almost vomited. There was no emotion or connection. The participants might as well have been making grocery lists or following assembly instructions for a child’s toy.
While it’s true Jim Wright provided a pretty complete composite of undesirables, including liberals which means some people who post here are on the list, it was overkill and lacked as much sense of reality as the porn film. His use of a Confederate flag as the vehicle to carry him into the thicket was overwrought and inaccurate. In the beginning, slavery was not the primary issue which caused the Civil War.
His seeming clairvoyance should make him eligable for the Amazing Randy’s $10,000. check.
Wright’s apparent anger made one suspect he didn’t like America either and he needed someone, maybe the Unibomber, to calm him before he hurt himself or others.
I am an equal opportunity scold. One of the women in our group gave a campaign pamphlet to a reporter. It described one of our opponent’s run for state office as a Socialist. That had nothing to do with our legal dispute, and the woman’s attempt to make him look bad because of his political beliefs was as bigoted as Jim Wright’s article.
jsri, in simple terms so you can understand: I survived hard times, some of which I described here. I broke but fixed myself. My reactions are not always normal, and I have been open about it. I am probably the only one here who relives a time when men tried to kill me every time people here sling mud at each other.
I may or may not be as intellegent as you, but I am smart, and I know stuff. When I am wrong, I admit it. You referred to Jean’s question about salt water in the nuclear reactors. Remember, I wrote I was as clueless as she was. I know my limits and don’t stray beyond my fields of expertise unless it is to learn more. I have earned my self confidence in ways you can’t imagine.
I also think the PFessor was just trying to help. You read too much into it.
jsri, I never personally attacked you except to retaliate when you attacked me, and then you backed down. That tells me something about you.
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By: James on March 29, 2011
at 10:37 AM
Elsie, good except – so I went and read the whole piece. Very good! It’s nice to have someone new to read!
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By: delurkergurl on March 29, 2011
at 9:39 AM
Hey, Mikat and roz, glad you enjoyed the excerpts. Cynthia brought the link to Jim Wright’s site to us, and I continue to look there for more entertainment until we hear back from Helen.
Here’s another view from Jim Wright, posted in May 2009, from his commentary:
“Liberalism, Conservatism, and Insanity, Or
That’s The Stupidest Thing I’ve Heard In a Long Time
– even in the bastion of Neocon central, i.e. South Central Palinville, Alaska.”
***
Liberalism is a mental illness, my ass.
In fact, just the opposite is true: attempting to resolve conflict without resorting to violence, promoting tolerance within broad and reasonable limits, seeking equality for all, protecting the world we live in so that we can go on living in it, and taking care of the weak and the less fortunate are the hallmarks of the mature and the rational and the healthy and the sane mind.
And in point of fact, these very things are the founding principles of nearly every mainstream religion, but most especially Christianity – Jesus was the ultimate Liberal. If you claim to be a Christian and you’re a NeoCon then you are a […damned] hypocrite.
These are the founding principles of every major conservative service organization, from the Masons, to the Elk’s Lodge, to the Boy Scouts of America.
And these are the founding principles of the United States itself.
Liberalism is what sanity looks like.
No wonder Neocons don’t understand it.
***
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By: elsie09 on March 29, 2011
at 9:14 AM
Thanks Elsie, great website! Jim Wright has perspective, brains and his writing is excellent as well. I’m a fan!!
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By: roz on March 29, 2011
at 8:59 AM
Elsie,
Thank you for posting the website. Jim is Fantastic! suggested reading for all.
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By: Mikat on March 29, 2011
at 8:51 AM
An old Jewish friend of mine from DFW sent this to me. I apologise for the all-caps; I don’t have a way to convert it back to l.c. I think this has been around a while…
A Nun Grading Papers…..
Can you imagine the Nun sitting at her desk grading the papers, all the while trying to keep a straight face and maintain her composure! (I know I couldn’t!)
PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION TO THE WORDING AND SPELLING. IF YOU KNOW THE BIBLE EVEN A LITTLE, YOU’LL FIND THIS HILARIOUS! IT COMES FROM A CATHOLIC ELEMENTARY SCHOOL TEST.
KIDS WERE ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS. THE FOLLOWING STATEMENTS ABOUT THE BIBLE WERE WRITTEN BY CHILDREN. THEY HAVE NOT BEEN RETOUCHED OR CORRECTED. INCORRECT SPELLING HAS BEEN LEFT IN.
1. IN THE FIRST BOOK OF THE BIBLE, GUINESSIS, GOD GOT TIRED OF CREATING THE WORLD SO HE TOOK THE SABBATH OFF.
2. ADAM AND EVE WERE CREATED FROM AN APPLE TREE. NOAH’S WIFE WAS JOAN OF ARK. NOAH BUILT AN ARK AND THE ANIMALS CAME ON IN PEARS.
3. LOTS WIFE WAS A PILLAR OF SALT DURING THE DAY, BUT A BALL OF FIRE DURING THE NIGHT.
4.THE JEWS WERE A PROUD PEOPLE AND THROUGHOUT HISTORY THEY HAD TROUBLE WITH UNSYMPATHETIC GENITALS.
5. SAMPSON WAS A STRONGMAN WHO LET HIMSELF BE LED ASTRAY BY A JEZEBEL LIKE DELILAH.
6. SAMSON SLAYED THE PHILISTINES WITH THE AXE OF THE APOSTLES.
7. MOSES LED THE JEWS TO THE RED SEA WHERE THEY MADE UNLEAVENED BREAD WHICH IS BREAD WITHOUT ANY INGREDIENTS .
8. THE EGYPTIANS WERE ALL DROWNED IN THE DESSERT. AFTERWARDS, MOSES WENT UP TO MOUNT CYANIDE TO GET THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.
9. THE FIRST COMMANDMENT WAS WHEN EVE TOLD ADAM TO EAT THE APPLE.
10. THE SEVENTH COMMANDMENT IS THOU SHALT NOT ADMIT ADULTERY.
11. MOSES DIED BEFORE HE EVER REACHED CANADA .. THEN JOSHUA LED THE HEBREWS IN THE BATTLE
OF GERITOL.
12. THE GREATEST MIRICLE IN THE BIBLE IS WHEN JOSHUA TOLD HIS SON TO STAND STILL AND HE OBEYED HIM.
13. DAVID WAS A HEBREW KING WHO WAS SKILLED AT PLAYING THE LIAR. HE FOUGHT THE FINKELSTEINS, A RACE OF PEOPLE WHO LIVED IN BIBLICAL TIMES.
14. SOLOMON, ONE OF DAVID’S SONS, HAD 300 WIVES AND 700 PORCUPINES.
15. WHEN MARY HEARD SHE WAS THE MOTHER OF JESUS, SHE SANG THE MAGNA CARTA.
16. WHEN THE THREE WISE GUYS FROM THE EAST SIDE ARRIVED THEY FOUND JESUS IN THE MANAGER.
17. JESUS WAS BORN BECAUSE MARY HAD AN IMMACULATE CONTRAPTION.
18. ST. JOHN,THE BLACKSMITH, DUMPED WATER ON HIS HEAD.
19. JESUS ENUNCIATED THE GOLDEN RULE, WHICH SAYS TO DO UNTO OTHERS BEFORE THEY DO ONE TO YOU. HE ALSO EXPLAINED A MAN DOTH NOT LIVE BY SWEAT ALONE.
20. IT WAS A MIRICLE WHEN JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD AND MANAGED TO GET THE TOMBSTONE OFF THE ENTRANCE.
21. THE PEOPLE WHO FOLLOWED THE LORD WERE CALLED THE 12 DECIBELS.
22. THE EPISTELS WERE THE WIVES OF THE APOSTLES.
23. ONE OF THE OPPOSSUMS WAS ST. MATTHEW, WHO WAS ALSO A TAXIMAN.
24. ST. PAUL CAVORTED TO CHRISTIANITY. HE PREACHED HOLY ACRIMONY WHICH IS ANOTHER NAME FOR MARRAIGE.
25. CHRISTIANS HAVE ONLY ONE SPOUSE. THIS IS CALLED MONOTONY
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By: PFesser on March 29, 2011
at 5:34 AM
I have really enjoyed working my way through Jim Wright’s blog today at http://www.stonekettle.com/. He’s a bit shocked at how wildly viral the post Cynthia linked to has gone.
I thought his blog comment about teabaggers was particularly funny:
***
“Oddly, I haven’t yet received any death threats – and I’ve gotten death threats for posts much less pointed than America. But I have gotten a number of emails that stop just, barely, short of threats. I’ve gotten the usual screeds questioning my manhood, my patriotism, my military background, my morals, my integrity, my agenda, my affiliation with the New World Order, and whether or not my parents were ever married. I’ve gotten an even dozen that are in the format I’ve come to call TEA Party Tourette’s, i.e. incoherent froth and spittle, random capitalization, punctuated with serial ellipsis and exclamation points, full of fierce damnation and God’s wrath – I’m tempted to post those here for ridicule, but it would be like taunting the class spaz. Amusing, yes, but more than a little mean. I’m not saying I won’t, mind you, you know me after all, but that’s another post entirely.”
***
I wondered who IS this man?
I found his background in his list of “ten things to consider before you decide to be a troll here” [on his blog]:
***
… First, in order to understand my response to trolls, you need to understand who I am. Do NOT assume that you know me, unless you’ve hung around Stonekettle Station [his blog] for a good long time. But here are the basics: I’m a retired United States Navy Chief Warrant Officer. Retired is a relative term, I will, for the rest of my life, identify myself as a Chief Warrant Officer – it is an ingrained part of my personality. Navy Warrants are unlike any other rank in any other service. We are selected from a highly competitive group, and we are selected for two things specifically, advanced knowledge combined with experience and a specific personality type. As a group, we tend to be profane, hard boiled, out spoken, and supremely confident in our abilities to get the job, whatever it may be, done. As such we get only the worst jobs, the ones nobody else can do. We are not Officers and Gentlemen – and nobody expects us to be. To help non-Navy folks understand what I mean, allow me to illustrate. When I applied for Warrant I was interviewed by three Navy officers, one Warrant, one Limited Duty Officer, and a senior Naval Academy Graduate – a full Commander. My interview consisted of one question, asked by the Commander: “Let’s say we make you an officer, when you join the wardroom you’ll be surrounded by real Officers, Academy Graduates (at this point he took pains to tap his Academy ring on the table top so I would notice), and that means three things: one, they are better educated than you. Two, they are smarter than you. And three, they are a lot younger than you. How are you going to handle that?” I didn’t have to think about my answer, I said immediately, “I’ll buy younger, but not the rest of your points. I believe each member of the wardroom has something to contribute, and if I need to know how to chain a woman to a urinal, tear up a Vegas hotel, or cheat on my engineering exam those officers will be the first ones I ask – other than that they better stay the [hell] out of my way.” The Commander turned bright red, the LDO remained carefully straight faced, and the Warrant smiled – and the interview was over (no, the Commander wasn’t being an ass, the Warrant put him up to it. And it was really the Warrant’s decision).
And that is how you become a Warrant, and it should tell you something about what kind of person I am. If you find that story only confirmation of your assumption that I’m an asshole, well you may be right, but you’re missing the bigger picture. Do some research into why people like me are necessary to the military, start here. My job was to get the mission done, by hook or crook, come hell or high water. You fight until there’s nothing left but ashes, and then you piss in the ashes. Warrants exist solely for that reason. We lead from the front, by example, and we have a well earned reputation for bluntness, duty, honor, courage, and commitment to our people and the mission. I’ve been around the world, fought in two wars, and earned the respect of fighting men on six continents. So when you troll my site and attempt a personal attack on me or mine, well, that’s what you’re up against.
***
Until Helen gets back with her own pithy comments, there’s plenty more to read at Jim’s Stone Kettle Station and in the Kitchen at chatterclatter dot wordpress dotcom.
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By: elsie09 on March 28, 2011
at 8:41 PM
Yes, ty PI and Cynthia for bringing Jim Wright’s posts to my attention! I linked him on my face book as well. I thought he was THAT good.
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By: lori on March 28, 2011
at 3:06 PM
Cynthia, thanks for the link.
I am from the South. I grew up during desegregation. I have relatives on both sides of my family tree, as well as neighbors and a number of former friends, who represent everything about which Jim Wright rails. He nails the mentality of the birther, the bagger, and especially bigoted, myopic Southern haters of all persuasions.
Lori, you are spot on.
And Alaskapi, thanks for your suggestion to read more of Jim Wright. His words ring true, through-and-through.
I was reminded of this verse in Jeremiah 5:21 — “Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not…”
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By: elsie09 on March 28, 2011
at 1:55 PM
It’s only relevant when Helen has a new post. The rest of the time, ho-hum…
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By: judith on March 28, 2011
at 12:14 PM
Cynthia, Lori, et al
It is interesting to see how one person’s claim of bigotry is another person’s reality. When I read Jim Wright’s original piece on Stonekettle Station, I could easily attach names to the description. One is my brother-in-law and two others are long-time acquaintances who insist upon sending me warmed over cut-and-paste diatribes aimed at President Obama even though I have told them I don’t want to see any more of them in my mailbox. Despite their bumper sticker mentalities, they are remarkably persistent. The latest one yesterday was a recap of the words of the judge at the sentencing of shoe-bomber Richard Reid. The version that landed in my mailbox is at least eight years old and while heartfelt, is typical of the jingoistic flag-waving in everything they send me.
It is also interesting to me to see the response of the one on this blog who sees himself as God’s gift to the universe. I realize that he is infinitely smarter than most of the posters here but he seems to come up somewhat short in the humanity and humility departments.
In my long career in higher education I came across many people who thought that way. It goes with the territory. And while many are experts in their own academic fields, they often fall into a swamp when they stray beyond their area of expertise. When directly questioned, they rely on obfuscation rather than information. A couple weeks ago, Auntie Jean asked a pretty straightforward question about the effect of using seawater to cool the reactor core of the breached nuclear power stations in Japan. Instead of an informative answer, she got a basic chemistry lesson and was roundly insulted, a typical mysogynistic response. It has become pretty obvious that aside from Helen’s comments, females responders here generally are treated as not being worthy.
This site has gone to hell in a handcart in the past year. Prior to that is was Helen’s unique perspective that brought readers here and a community of like minded people gathered regularly to exchange views and comments. But the takeover during the past year has unbalanced the site in a different direction and many of the regular posters have gone elsewhere.
And to return to this site after having been away for a few days is a trip through never-never land. It took hours and hours of skimming and skipping just to get a general sense of what was going on. In the end it wasn’t worth the effort. As far as I’m concerned, this site is no longer relevant.
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By: jsri on March 28, 2011
at 9:06 AM
James-
Believe whatever you want to believe but I still would suggest you read more of his posts.
http://www.stonekettle.com/
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By: alaskapi on March 28, 2011
at 8:37 AM
Cynthia,
Thank you for posting that article, it was Brilliant!
Fanned.
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By: Mikat on March 28, 2011
at 8:10 AM
I haven’t had time to read Jim Wright’s other articles, so maybe he isn’t but that article was bigotry pure and simple. I know, because I was the the object of such prejudice when I returned to the United States. I was a veteran, and my kind was undesirable. Black friends also told me their stories of how it was. Our son and daughter -in law kept their marriage a secret because her Korean family disapproved of mixed marriages.
Wright cannot know the mind of a stranger in a pickup even if he knows others who drive big trucks. He projected his biases on someone he has never met and by extension a class of people.
The people who verbally and nearly physically assaulted us yesterday were Democrats. (The only real assault was a woman’s being pushed against the side of the courthouse.) They numerically outnumbered us and the wife of one had her cell phone ready to call for even more reinforcements until the sheriff and deputy arrived. Another has run for state office as a socialist. At least two belong to labor unions. Am I to believe their violent behavior is what all Democrats, Socialists and members of labor unions are? By extension, are you a thug if you are a liberal Democrat? If I follow Wright’s logic the answer is “yes”. I reject that sort thought.
Bigotry and its cousins are endemic, pernicious, and vile. “conservative/teabonkers” is as bigoted in its intent as the N or other words used to objectify and dehumanize classes of people. Deny it all you want. It is still what it is.
I am not mad at anyone here, and I am not accusing anyone of bigotry, only the two words. However, I am angry at what almost happened yesterday and possible repercussions to follow. This isn’t over in our little county.
I have to be in Nebraska soon, so if I post today, it will mean false James has returned.
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By: James on March 28, 2011
at 8:09 AM
Jim Wright is NOT a bigot.
Would recommend folks read more of his posts before passing that judgment.
And BTW, his take on the mindset of the person in described truck is spot on as regards a lot of folks in the valley. I’ve been wondering since he posted this entry if he saw one of my cousins on the way to work…
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By: alaskapi on March 28, 2011
at 6:08 AM
Cynthia: thank you for posting the link to the blog. I bet is angers the “conservative/teabonkers that are dominating this M&H blog.
Lori – your post on Cynthia’s link beat me to it.
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By: cryptoclearance on March 27, 2011
at 7:19 PM
We just returned from a court ordered-supervised election following our lawsuit victory. Then, it got interesting with an altercation staged out side the court house Angry associates of the losing side wanted their pound of flesh. We decided my wife was less threatening as a woman, than I, so as I took videos she piled in and used her best teacher mode to help quiet what was on its way to assault. The sheriff and deputy arrived. They said if we wanted to press charges, the jail would have new residents within minutes. After all, I had it on memory card and the ringleader had a history of assault. We declined to press charges.
A few minutes ago, I had time to read Cynthia’s link. After my day, I am in no mood to be polite or to mince words. Jim Wright is a bigot, and he doesn’t even know it. I would tell him to his face.
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By: James on March 27, 2011
at 6:00 PM
lori opined:
“You hate your neighbors, you do, you hate them. You hate the n and the sp and the ch and the g and sp and haj. And, man, there’s nothing you hate more than when they call you a racist and a bigot.”
And what is HE but a bigot, when he has generated a massive, multithousand-word rant against someone whom he has never even MET? All on the basis of how the man’s truck appears as it passed him on the highway? WTF? You have to be kidding me. hmmm..Somehow this sounds familiar… What’s the next step? The color of the man’s skin? The thickness of his lips? His accent? (Omigod, it might be SOUTHERN! There’s a sure giveaway to being an undeserving low-life!)
You can’t claim the moral high ground when you are behaving exactly like those you claim to oppose, and there is no better example than that referenced above. In point of fact, he is much worse, because he – and we – don’t know a thing about the fellow he was ranting against, but a little reading of his little missive surely tells you about where prejudice – yes, that’s “pre-judging” – lives.
“I have “listened” to my political opposites for years and years.”
I’m glad you put listened in quotes. That alone speaks volumes. Nothing else needed. Perfect.
“It really is the same same same.. They are always wanting something that “use to be ” back in the day of …. what??????”
Some things were better in the past, some were not. But let’s not get onto schools again.
“They believe there is not enough to go around and damn it, they deserve to be first in line, cause , welllllllll they just do, cause……. they are BETTER than!”
That is not what they tell me. They tell me that they want to be first in line for what they have earned, cause, wellllllllllllll…they EARNED it. All those things that “go around” (handed out by the government) did not fall from the heavens; they came into being because someone actually worked for them. And oddly enough, those who worked would like a say in who receives what THEY worked for. That doesn’t seem that unreasonable to me.
“Personally, I always want what is yet to come for our country. I “believe” in America, the Great Experiment… always have. I DO believe the best is yet to come. ;-)”
Vague, uplifting phrases may make you feel better, but such polyanna gets you nowhere. Nothing makes America immune from going into the trashbin of history just like almost every other country that has ever existed, except for its open system that lets people point out problems without fear, and then set about solving them. I for one believe, in the words of Franklin, we have a “republic, if you can keep it.” And I certainly believe that, more than any other time in history, the issue is in question.
“thanks for reminding me of that today……”
No charge.
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By: PFesser on March 27, 2011
at 3:23 PM
Cynthia, I passed the citizenship test. No Jay Walking for me!
PFessor, yes, cross country skiing is a good workout. Fortunately, it didn’t take me much longer than an hour to learn to stay upright. I extend the season by cross country skiing in marginal conditions such as between harvested corn stalks when snow is gone everywhere else. I can cross country ski on a half inch of snow or ice if it is on grass. Skiing on drifts is also a challenge– sort of like down hill skiing on cross country skis. Those situations took longer to master. If you misjudge your speed on a big drift, you may stall near the top and slide backward on your skis.
Last March, I was skiing on drifts up to waist high surrounded by six to eight inches of water as snow melted rapidly. I crashed through a drift and as I tried to get out of the snow, a ski and shoe came off. I couldn’t find it in the drift, so I removed my other ski and walked a half mile through water and snow to the house. I knew I was safe from frost bite because the temperature was about 45, and the only thing below freezing was the snow.
My feet and calves were numb after my walk, and my feet had turned purple and black. After soaking my feet in mild water for a couple of hours, I walked back with a shovel and retrieved my ski. Maybe some day, you can enjoy such adventures.
My daughter taught me how to down hill ski. One thing that transferred from down hill skiing was my feeling of insecurity if I wasn’t using ski poles. Our daughter told me “you don’t use ski poles until you are good.”
My wife won’t cross country ski for fear she will fall and break something. She has arthritis and her bones are weaker than they once were. Falls are the main problem, and it is hard to get up again. One can hit the ground hard with no tumbling as with down hill skiing. It is like hitting a wall squarely in a NASCAR race. Kenitic energy is not redistributed over time as when a car or skier tumbles and turns.
Sking on a mixture of grass or mud is especially good for the heart, because one has to work harder. I think you would like it.
Our dog loves when I ski. As soon as she sees me carrying skies to the edge of our back yard, she runs in circles and jumps in the air.
Your snow is from the same storm which gave us an inch of snow yesterday. One more is due Monday night and Tuesday.
An e friend’s husband was sledding in the Black Hills. He and his son were racing down hill until they got off course and hit a tree. A tree branch impaled him and nearly came out the other side. He is back at work now, but still pretty sore.
It reminded me of how the children and I rode our tobaggan down hill as we stood on it like a multi- person snow board. The hill was steep, and we went fast. My shoulder was sore for about six months after one of our spills. I miss those days.
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By: James on March 27, 2011
at 8:41 AM
Thank you for posting this Cynthia!!!!!! Fan fan fan…..
This is the part that reminded me the most of some of the more “conservative” contributors on this site.
“You hate your neighbors, you do, you hate them. You hate the n and the sp and the ch and the g and sp and haj. And, man, there’s nothing you hate more than when they call you a racist and a bigot.”
I have “listened” to my political opposites for years and years.
It really is the same same same.. They are always wanting something that “use to be ” back in the day of …. what??????
They believe there is not enough to go around and damn it, they deserve to be first in line, cause , welllllllll they just do, cause……. they are BETTER than!
Personally, I always want what is yet to come for our country. I “believe” in America, the Great Experiment… always have. I DO believe the best is yet to come. 😉
thanks for reminding me of that today……
namaste’
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By: lori on March 27, 2011
at 8:10 AM
James –
I have never done any cross-country skiing, but they tell me it is the very best CV workout going. How long would it take to get proficient enough to enjoy yourself? I have downhill skied for about 30 years, but I wonder how much the skills would transfer. I gotta find something to take the place of running. I have gained 30# in the past four years. Now, dammit, it looks like I have a DVT from sitting at my desk too long at a time without getting up to stretch. I’m working this weekend with my left leg up on a pillow. Grrrr…not looking forward to old age.
When it quits bloody snowing – yes, snowing – here, my son and I are going riding on the local bicycle trail, so at least that’s something.
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By: PFesser on March 27, 2011
at 7:02 AM
This may not be a Sunday morning read but it is worth reading.
America You Keep Using That Word I Don’t Think It Means What You Think It Means
http://www.themudflats.net/2011/03/26/america-you-keep-using-that-word-i-dont-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means/
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 27, 2011
at 6:57 AM
Ronald Brownstien is one of the smartest writers Lori has linked to, and I enjoyed his article immensely. Why? Because when Obama’s applogists compared him to Lincoln, FDR and Kennedy I thought it was bunk. Ike seemed more logical to me. Some called Bill Clinton a second Eisenhour because of his policies. Another writer also compared Obama to Eisenhour. (sp)
To read something like that did wonders for my ego, and even better, it is snowing hard. As snowfall rate overcomes melting, I may be able to ski again this afternoon.
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By: James on March 26, 2011
at 12:12 PM
PFessor, that is a good idea. From what I know of local Tea Parties, they have a strong libertarian bent as you write. They are so independent minded that for awhile last year, Omaha had two Tea Party organizations hostile to each other.
They should talk.
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By: James on March 26, 2011
at 8:59 AM
Here you go my friends! This piece talks directly to the subject we were discussing a few weeks ago. (we have talked about it 100 times, the latest being a NOP topic)
Just who is this man we call President? And where does he fit in on the 2011 political landscape? Interesting to me… I hope you enjoy. 😉
http://www.nationaljournal.com/columns/political-connections/obama-a-lot-like-ike-20110324
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By: lori on March 26, 2011
at 7:56 AM
Now that I’ve read later comments, I also agree that rape plan is outrageous. Reproduction is a private, not government matter. However, to refuse to vote for all Republicans only empowers Democrats and gives us another form of “tyrany.” Otherwise, I like the letter. Economic competition lowers prices and political competition saves us from dictatorship.
As you know, tammyharper, the odds are against a third party, but it has happened. The Republicans formed a third party which supplanted the Whigs, so it can be done if conditions are right.
If Carl Rove was a burgler, that doesn’t make Republicans “common thugs” any more than Sandy Berger’s publicized document theft makes all Democrats criminals. As I wrote, both sides do it.
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By: James on March 26, 2011
at 7:30 AM
James and tammyharper –
It just occurred to me: why would the Tea Party and the Libertarians not join into one party? It seems to me that their agendas are very nearly identical. I wonder if they have talked together about that. Public disaffection with the two parties now in power couldn’t be higher – what is Congress’ approval rating now, 12% or something like that?
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By: PFesser on March 26, 2011
at 7:24 AM
I didn’t reload a saved page from yesterday, so I don’t know what if anything people wrote since then.
Shades of Sharon Angle and the Tea Party: A western Iowa school district decided to play a detailed “war game” to prepare for a possible terrorist attack after several school and mall shootings in Omaha the past few years. They asked for help from Homeland Security, I think.
The condition of help was that the school district would follow the scenario that disaffected white separatists would kill Hispanics. As we know the most likely attack would be by Muslim extremists, not white separatists. Locals, including Hispanics were so angry, the school district dropped its plans. The government agency responded with a note claiming that they were astounded and implied the school district people were not patriotic if they refused the plan.
Meanwhile, the Omaha World Herald discovered the Omaha School district has been hiding true compensation for the Superintendent and other high officials. The Superintendent actually earns over $400,000.00 and in effect had an 8% pay raise when the school board said he had taken no pay raise.
Mayor Suttle narrowly escaped recall because the city faces the same public employee expenses as Wisconsin and other governments. Firings, library, and park cut -backs saved the city from bankruptcy. Now, the EPA demands that Omaha repair a sewer system which shows little sign the work is needed right now.
The mayor spoke against the unfunded mandate and said the government has become too intrusive. They tried to persuade the government to wait until the economy improves, but the federal government was unmoved. Now, he is proposing a tax on toilet paper to pay for the sewer work. Some other cities showed an interest, and Suttle’s proposal made the Drudge Report.
Mayor Suttle is a loyal Democrat, but his rant against unfunded mandates sounds like what I have heard from the Tea Party. Unfunded mandates and overweening government intrusion in private affairs is a Tea Party issue. If they were looking, the Tea Party would pick up recruits near Omaha right now.
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By: James on March 26, 2011
at 7:01 AM
lori –
Forget it. I just got a text copy and it is just like you say.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.3:
This is just too much. I am writing a letter TODAY to Reince Priebus, chair of the RNC.
“Sir, I have voted Republican since I was eighteen – that is, until three years ago – at which time it became clear that the Party had lost its way. It has now become the party of the Lunatic Fringe, the Religious Right, the Anti-Abortioners, and I will have nothing to do with it.
When the Party comes to its senses and starts taking care of the People’s business, which is to say, the governing of all for the benefit of all, and stops catering to a small vocal group that wishes to engineer the social structure of this country to its own narrow-minded agenda, I will consider returning.
Until that time, I will consider “Republican” beside any candidate’s name to immediately disqualify him for office.
Sincerely,
James ……………..MD
…………………….VA
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By: PFesser on March 26, 2011
at 6:56 AM
lori –
Wow. That looks pretty bad. Obviously Rep. Schultz has an axe to grind, but it still looks bad. Do you have a reference to a more non-partisan analysis?
As I have said before, these people up in DC are completely out of control. Man, if you could only roll back time…Way back when, when the Republicans invited the RR to drive, they made a helluva mistake. Before then, they represented my POV perfectly. Now DC reminds me of “Murder on the Orient Express.” There are so many criminals, I wouldn’t know which one to arrest first.
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By: PFesser on March 26, 2011
at 6:40 AM
I know many of you received this fund raising letter (I took the $ bit out) but jic some of you did not, here ya go. Makes me sick… literally….
lori,
Last month, I emailed to alert you to Republicans’ outrageous attempt to redefine rape.
Your support helped fund the DCCC’s Rapid Response team, keeping the spotlight on House Republicans and forcing them to roll back some of the most extreme provisions in their bill. But now another shocking revelation has come to light.
Get this: an official at the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation revealed that the GOP’s anti-choice H.R. 3 bill could allow the IRS to investigate women who terminated pregnancies that were the result of rape or incest. It’s simply unbelievable.
Forcing victims of rape and incest to explain these traumatic events to IRS auditors is dehumanizing and unconscionable. We must have a powerful response.
The fact that House Republicans think women’s reproductive choices are fair game for tax auditors shows just how out-of-touch the GOP really is. Rather than fighting for jobs, or health care or equal rights, House Republicans are reaching deep into the personal lives of all American women.
We cannot stay silent in the face of this legislative attack on women’s health and reproductive freedom by the extreme right-wing fringe of the Republican Party.
Thank you,
Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz
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By: lori on March 25, 2011
at 6:54 PM
I very much like the idea of the “fair tax” I saw a couple of documentaries on it and to me seemed to be a very sound idea. Unfortunately without a solid 3rd party there is no way the Dems or the Republicans would allow this to take place.
The Tea Party is still an infant as far as political movements go. I suspect there will be many more missteps before they find their footing but make no mistake I think that it is a movement that will be around for decades to come. I believe that this or an organization like it will be how we get a 3 party system in place.
Republicans are too myopic in how they think and do things. They tend to hyper focus on issues and sometimes fail to see the casualties that happen along the way. Democrats spend with little regard to the consequences and are far to short sighted to what plights they are creating for our children with the policies they make today. I think the public is starting to get fed up with the entire process and I think the climate is ripe for a solid 3rd party to spring out in the next 10 or so years.
We have to remember lessons of the past. Rome fell partly because their economy became too top heavy. To few controlled most of the wealth. Today some 40 people control 50% of this countries wealth, this just isn’t good for the country or morally right for many reasons. On the other hand I am adamantly against forced redistribution of wealth. Socialism and Communism are proven failed policies that are unsustainable in the long term, and no the couple of microcosms that exist out there are not proof that it works. I don’t know how we correct this problem honestly. Maybe the fair tax would help, it is certainly a promising idea.
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By: tammyharper on March 25, 2011
at 5:21 PM
LOL LOL NOP… It makes me happy too that for ONCE the other party’s fringe (tpers) is giving them trouble. Usually it’t my party with those types of headaches!
Mikat… they are nothing more than common thugs! Did you know the GOP’s darling Rove committed burglary too? That’s how he got his leg up with the party loyals.
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By: lori on March 25, 2011
at 4:45 PM
I agree, tammyharper.
However the Tea Parties need to be more discerning about the candidates they support. As soon as Sharon Angle was nominated, I knew Harry Reid would keep his seat. Tea partiers should ask “is this candidate capable?” and “Can he/she win?” They shouldn’t expect the whole ideological pie, and they should either control themselves or let others curb their more fanciful impulses.
The family of anyone, Tea Party or not, who thinks Charlie Sheen makes more sense than Rep Beohner should seriously consider costodial care. It was kind of funny though.
The Chamber of Commerce certainly should be investigated as should the former SEIU official who was recorded over the weekend explaining how his allies will destroy the economy and take down the government. I mentioned the Wall Street group who attempted a coup against FDR with an attempted use of the American Legion. For seemingly intelligent people those folks are awfully stupid.
Mikat, the Democrats have no more morals than the Republicans. They are politicians and power motivates them.
Cynthia, I haven’t forgotten to take the test. I don’t have much time right now.
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By: James on March 25, 2011
at 3:56 PM
tammyharper –
I know several (I would not say “many”) Tea Partiers, and they are all really good people who just can’t survive any more taxes. Having said that, my experience with those I see on TV is pretty disturbing, and this movement seems to be attracting some pretty loose cannons with personal issues of their own, Sharron Angle case-in-point.
A friend I met on the Internet turned me on to the Fair Tax proposal. Are you familar with that? I am about half-way through the Boortz book and I find it a compelling idea so far. Thoughts?
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By: PFesser on March 25, 2011
at 3:17 PM
I for one think the tea party is the best thing to hit this country in decades. It shows us that there are still political organization and people out there that stand for something, I mean really stand for something, and actually hold on to their ideologies no matter what public opinion might be. If only we had more politicians like this.
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By: tammyharper on March 25, 2011
at 2:49 PM
But, hey as long as they have the “chamber of Commerce” the repugs can’t loose…. right! They simply have no morals left.
http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/richard-clarke-chamber-attack-plans-i
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By: Mikat on March 25, 2011
at 1:26 PM
http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/ralstons-flash/2011/mar/24/angle-veterans-foreign-wars-betrayed-america-endor/
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By: No one's puppet on March 25, 2011
at 12:33 PM
News like this, probably, shouldn’t give me so much pleasure, but….
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/25/judson-phillips-charlie-s_n_840552.html
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By: No one's puppet on March 25, 2011
at 11:24 AM
You know the answer to “Why can’t we get ourselves organized?” People have short memories and take the path of least resistance.
l plan to take the test, Cynthia, but not now. Our four inches of new snow over night are begging to be skied on. That is a big change from Tuesday when a tornado was near by.
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By: James on March 25, 2011
at 7:35 AM
aquart –
Well spoken.
My wife has a degree in Medieval Studies and she has really opened my eyes about how the same scenarios have played out over the centuries, over and over. It was not uncommon for young ladies in historical times to find themselves in the family way and literally throw themselves down the stairs in an attempt to abort.
They found themselves with two broken arms. And pregnant.
It is so frustrating for me. I and my “sisters” – and a lot of other men – worked SO hard to get abortion rights, and now it seems everybody is asleep at the wheel, while the RR and people of that ilk chip away at those rights. You don’t want the bad old days, believe you me. You don’t want them. Why can’t we get ourselves organized?
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By: PFesser on March 25, 2011
at 6:12 AM
Upthread, someone mentioned an ectopic pregnancy. Are there really morons so poorly educated by our gutted schools that they think there’s a choice about terminating that death sentence? My grandmother had one. She was so ill from it that over fifty years later they were still talking about it at her funeral. About her miracle of survival so that she could continue to be a mother to her son and her daughter.
Me, I’m a miracle, too. The baby born after the baby who died because my mother had full-blown eclampsia. They told my dad she must never try again, but they never told her. So two years later, there I was, caesarean birth and nine pounds. Born wanted and loved, the way every child should be.
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By: aquart on March 25, 2011
at 2:56 AM
My mom, who will be 90 in May, lost her favorite cousin over seventy years ago. Bessie died from “a fall down the stairs.” That was the euphemism for death by illegal abortion.
Bessie was loved, but she was lost. The family she could have had later was lost to the world, her affection was lost to my mother and her parents.
That is the world Rick Perry wants. Secret shamed funerals of women who could not bring themselves to do what Rick Perry and his church wants them to do. That’s what’s coming. And if it comes, we deserve it for being so hypocritical, heartless, and stupid.
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By: aquart on March 25, 2011
at 2:46 AM
This blog is starting to lock up my browser. I am going to have to buy a new computer so I can continue following the saga.
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By: John Myste on March 24, 2011
at 8:39 PM
NEWSWEEK gave 1,000 Americans the U.S. Citizenship Test–38 percent failed. The country’s future is imperiled by our ignorance.
http://www.newsweek.com/2011/03/20/how-dumb-are-we.html
Okay boys and girls we are going to have a pop quiz today. Sit straight. Feet on the floor. Pencils ready. Keep your eyes on your own paper!
Ready……Begin …Now.
http://www.newsweek.com/2011/03/20/take-the-quiz-what-we-don-t-know.html
(There are 20 questions.)
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 24, 2011
at 6:45 PM
Priceless…
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By: Craig on March 24, 2011
at 3:37 PM
NOP –
Points all well taken.
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By: PFesser on March 24, 2011
at 2:50 PM
Even the Federal Reserve says we are on the verge of insolvency, but we act as if nothing will happen when that day comes.
We should try “comptetivation” as Sprint Cup drivers did at Daytona. The condition of the track and rules let the drivers draft and push each other. Two cars tied together were faster than single cars. At that stage of the race the commentator said “everyone is your friend.” Another commentator said it was like a high school prom or air traffic control as drivers and their spotters made deals.
Politicians can do the same. Right and left need to overlook their hostility and craving for power to work together until conditions return to normal. Since that won’t happen until an emergency I think we are better off with a split government–Republican Congress and Democratic executive.
The Tea Party is too conservative for me, but thank God for them. They served the same function as labor unions do for Democrats. Without them, Republicans would not have won as many seats as they did.
I disagree with PFessor. Both parties lie. NOP, the Democratic tent isn’t as large as one might think. I remember when Pro life Senator Casey was not allowed to speak at a Democratic convention, and some liberals wanted to be rid of the Blue Dog Democrats last fall.
PFessor, Obama can’t focus and lead any better than he is doing now. His past history shows he has never had to do much more than vote “present.” Obama is still learning on the job.
The diarist of Lori’s link fails to understand the average American tends to be center right.
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By: James on March 24, 2011
at 2:49 PM
Sorry PFesser, the Republican Party isn’t our problem, they should have thought about the consequences before they began catering to the Christian Right, “as you sow, so shall you reap.” In retrospect, some good has come out the recent victories of the Tea Party, even non-political types suddenly realize, who is in office matters. We Democrats haven’t been this fired up since 2008, bring it on 2012! Honestly, we have a state legislator in my state that wants to make it mandatory that everyone check the air pressure in their tires every month. How are they going to enforce that? I only use that example, because while it shows how much these loony busybodies want to be in our business, a low tire doesn’t originate in the bedroom and therefore infer low morals and the you deserve whatever happens to you mentality.
However that said, I have said, for sometime, all Americans and their government would benefit if there was a responsible grownup third party. But President Obama has enough on his plate, he doesn’t have time to organize that party for you. Damn, don’t you think if he’d had the time, he would have fired Chairman Michael Steele for the GOP?
😉
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By: No one's puppet on March 24, 2011
at 1:46 PM
NOP –
I would say I am about 20% Democratic, about 70% Libertarian, about 10% Republican.
Yes, it is fair to say that I am positively ill about how the Republicans have let themselves be taken over and controlled by the hoopies. The Democrats it seems to me are unable to capitalize on the Repubs self-destruction and I am VERY frustrated with them, too, but not how you might think. In the same way that the Japanese forced American carmakers to make better autos, the Dems could force the Republicans to jettison the RR, the tea partiers, the fetus people, but they are so unorganized and spend so much time reacting to the Right that they can’t get the job done. The Republicans are basically dishonest, but the Democrats are incompetent, and that is just as bad.
The Dems need to pull their fingers our of their backsides, quit worrying about what the ReBiblicans think and Do Their Damned Job. If they do the People’s Business they will GET the votes. There are no shortcuts. People are too smart. Just do your job and you will get elected, but nobody can seem to get that. It is only a small group of people – yes, very loud, but a small group – that cares about abortion or who is getting a BJ in the White House.
For the record, I really like Obama’s style. I just wish he would get focused and Lead, dammit! Lead! Do what needs to be done to get us out of Afghanistan, Iraq. Get laws passed to stop the plunder on Wall Street, or make the Republicans publicly responsible. Do the people’s business. That’s all he needs to do.
Rant over. Apologies for the harsh tone.
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By: PFesser on March 24, 2011
at 1:01 PM
PFesser, it is not the liberals who are looking for a third party. The Democratic Party still serves us very well, it is a big tent that includes a lot of ideas. Seems you are the one wadding in the mire, crying for an alternative to the limited vision of the Republican Party.
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By: No one's puppet on March 24, 2011
at 12:37 PM
lori –
That is a really good article, but I got only as far as, “unfortunately for Republicans, our strength is that we’re right,” and had to quit because I was laughing so hard.
That is not the Left’s strength at all. In point of fact, it is the Left’s unassailable perception that it is always “right” that is its greatest weakness. “Why won’t Americans just open their eyes and see we’re right? After all, WE’RE the GOOD guys!” (FWIW, doctors suffer the same disease; that’s why the plaintiffs’ lawyers have eviscerated us.)
No they are not always right. Probably less than half the time, truth be told.
Any lawyer will tell you that the most powerful thing a witness can do is to concede an opposing lawyer’s point, because it makes him look credible and honest. The best thing the Left could do is to admit that it doesn’t have all the answers. As of right now, very few people trust either party. Put me and millions of other independents in that group.
The left had better get its manure together or we are going to end up with a cadre of bible-thumpers running this country, and in the not too distant future. Count on it.
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By: PFesser on March 24, 2011
at 12:20 PM
ignore the shiny objects in the room. remaining focused is key. 😉
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/23/911237/-Ignore-the-Hard-Right:-Hit-The-Mainstream-Right-Hard
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By: lori on March 24, 2011
at 9:05 AM
interesting short video
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By: tammyharper on March 24, 2011
at 8:59 AM
We need a third party. Its frustrating to realize the best argument for Republicans is they are less onerous than Democrats. I heard on the news this morning the Fed also says we are on the verge of insolvency.
“We” are becoming addicted to government largess as more people depend on our tax money. Time makes change more painful and politically harder until eventually our choices are gone.
Ex (?) SEIU official Steve Lerner architect of the Justice for Janitors program and a occasional visitor to the White House spoke to a group of progressives over the weekend. He presented a plan to overthrow our government and economic system.
Lerner cited Wisconsin as an example of how to implement their plan. They would begin by collapsing the banking system with a general mortgage strike. Then they would single out a bank like J. P. Morgan with a week of Wisconsin style protests and action.
It sounds as hairbrained as a Wall Street scheme to overthrow FDR by enlisting the aid of a famous war hero and the American Legion. Both are signs extreme views in uncertain times.
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By: James on March 24, 2011
at 7:22 AM
James –
“The real money is in Social Security, Medicare, Medicade and other entitlement programs. Combine them with public employees’ unsupportable health and insurance deals, and we have a problem . We need President Obama’s leadership because right now, neither party will attack the golden cow because both know the other will demagoge it. So far, no one has attacked the real problem.”
Well spoken. Not a day goes by that I don’t look at my wife and say, “What is wrong with us? What in hell is going on up there in DC? These people are completely out of control.”
The ReBiblicans talk about “jobs” while pandering to the lunatic fringe, not realizing that is why people like me left the Party. They need to STFU, along with the Dems, and take care of the People’s business, to wit: put the finances in order. Stop adventuring overseas. Then the jobs will come. And by the way, stay the hell out of people’s personal lives.
Just my .05
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By: PFesser on March 23, 2011
at 2:15 PM
The Ed Show’s assumptions are falceous. Governments cannot create private jobs. They can only produce favorable or unfavorable conditions for private enterprise.
The unmentioned House Republicans’ budget bill was intended to lower the deficit and indirectly help employment. Continuing the Bush tax cuts was a direct attempt to help maintain the employment rate. Obama agreed to sign it.
Democrats control the Senate and presidency. They have most of the power, and their job record is worse than the Republicans’.
Republicans know the abortion, Planned Parenthood, and NPR defunding won’t go anywhere because the Democrats will kill the bills. They are pandering to their electorate by keeping their promises. During the next campaign they will tell their people they tried and if voters elect a favorable Senate and or president they may be successful. All politicians pander.
We donate to NPR and will continue to do so. However, I agree with Juan Williams that the organization should be defunded, not because it is a horrible organization but because we are short of money. I don’t know enough about Planned Parenthood to know if it would go out of business if the government defunded it or if its services would decline.
I don’t see anything wrong with declaring English our official language, especially after visits to parts of the country where speaking English seems to be uncommon. Can you say Quebec boys and girls?
I also supported the investigation of extremist Muslims in the United States. The number of Muslim terrorisitic acts, including the murder of soldiers is sufficient to require an investigation of possible causes.
Reaffirming the “In God We Trust” motto, defunding Planned Parenthood, and the abortion bill are plain dumb pandering.
As for the rest, Mr. Ed is displays inadequate perspicacity. What can the Republicans do? Repass failed budget bills, lower taxes, mandate job creation?
The real money is in Social Security, Medicare, Medicade and other entitlement programs. Combine them with public employees’ unsupportable health and insurance deals, and we have a problem . We need President Obama’s leadership because right now, neither party will attack the golden cow because both know the other will demagoge it. So far, no one has attacked the real problem.
We will have faster internet service. The new modem came today. We may have satalite cable, but that will wait until we see how much time we waste on youtube, Hulu etc.
Yesterday, our high was 72, and a strong thunderstorm dropped hail on us. A damaging tornado was 25 miles south. of us. The storms didn’t last long because they developed along a cold front and sped northeast at 50 to 60 MPH. It is 41 now and we may have enough snow for me to ski on tomorrow night and Friday morning.
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By: James on March 23, 2011
at 1:02 PM
The Ed Show last night detailed the things that the new Congressional ReBiblican majority in reality thinks is more important than what it *says* is important. Here is where his data came from:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/22/top-6-things-republicans-consider-more-important-than-job-creation/
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By: PFesser on March 23, 2011
at 11:28 AM
Pfessor did for me what he is doing for Craig and Val, by giving educated guesses based on his experience. He did the same for me after my brother- in law nearly died in an accident. He is getting around in a walker, but he wants to drive. He also is refusing to do some of the physical therapy because of the pain. Thus, the surgeon wants to see him in Omaha to be sure everything is all right. My BOI is emotionally unequipped to cope with extended inactivity.
Thanks again PFessor. My telling my sister- in law a doctor I met on line predicted at least the chance of a good outcome meant a lot to her when she was grasping for any good news.
Craig, I wish I knew the right words or information which would make it better, but I don’t. I still have a feeling you to will be together longer than 18 months. The Omaha World Herald reported a survey showing the cancer death rate has fallen this year.
One of my ancestors published a thick book connecting the cousins branches from the initial American settlement. He traced our family line back to Denmark around 750. They later migrated to Normandy during the Viking attacks and went to England with William the Conqueror. When we lived in England we checked his information for veracity. I confirmed his finding our family name in the Doomsday Book and the registry of the ship which took our ancestors to America. Its listed in the Public Records Office. We have met unknown relatives in the US and Canada. All have one thing in common–that book.
My family migrated from Wales, and my mother’s was Scots-Irish and German. Several of my ancestors fought on both sides of the Revolutionary war, and those on the losing side fled to Canada. My mother’s family settled in Pennsylvania and Indians held one woman hostage for awhile. It is possible Jean and I are related.
We still have the steamer trunk another ancestor took on the gold rush. His name was James too. The only gold he found was in a gold ring a grateful prospector gave him after he saved the man’s son’s life. It was passed down to the eldest son. My grandfather dived under a table in an Arizona bar gun battle, and my father rode with the border patrol near Nogalis during his summer breaks from college.
Sarah, one of my distant grandmothers was a classmate of the girl who told Lincoln he would look better with a beard. He showed his new beard at a school assembly. Sarah recalled his voice was higher pitched than she thought it would be. I still have her college autograph book. She was smart and wanted to do something with her life. Her professors were never sure what she would say in class.
One of her friends wrote in the autograph book “Do you remember the times we went down to the river for our “serious interviews?” Do you remember the evening two shadows stepped from the bushes and what transpired later? I won’t bore you with what you already remember. Just think of me and what happened when you enjoy warm summer evenings.”
Has anyone tried group fiction? We used to do it on the Janeane Garafalo site. Someone wrote a paragraph and others followed as they took the story to and fro. It might be entertaining during the “dry spells.”
Elizabeth Taylor died.
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By: James on March 23, 2011
at 7:54 AM
Craig –
I’ll email you with address.
Jean –
“This little history lesson will be my swan song as I bow out gracefully.”
Enjoyed your historical accounts. Stay sharp. Adios.
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By: PFesser on March 23, 2011
at 6:44 AM
Amen Auntie jean.. fannnnnn that. 😉
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By: lori on March 23, 2011
at 4:35 AM
Hi Congenial Gang,
It appears that Margaret and Helen have abandon us to our own devices (vices?). I miss them. There are certainly any number of events going on in our country and around the world but apparently not enough to command the interest and attention of only a few people here anymore. The number of hits to this site have dropped off dramatically. I suppose many people only come by to see if Helen has put up a new post. This little history lesson will be my swan song as I bow out gracefully.
On another blog, many of us have been involved for a long time in formal research into our Genealogies and enjoy comparing notes. It is interesting to find out where we came from and possibly some of the factors that helped shape who we are now – – or maybe not. We do not often name names so as to protect the guilty. For all we know, we have plenty of pirates and horse thieves hanging from our family trees.
On my paternal side, the descendants of ancestors are as thick as fleas. Some were of Scotch-Irish heritage and are still there. Some were from elsewhere. Others immigrated all over, many to the United States. For instance, one had nine children. The FIFTH child had ten children. This is the branch of my family I have followed. I will give this one his Genealogy #5. His SECOND child died at age 21. (Genealogy #52). The THIRD was killed by a cow at age 13. (Genealogy #53.) Many of the same names were used over and over again, so the numbering system is more efficient in keeping track of who’s who.
Somewhere along the line, EIGHTH child, #58 wound up in Pennsylvania and married a person there who was probably of Pennsylvania Dutch and/or German heritage. They had 10 children. Their descendants scattered all over, some to Ohio and others out to the Wild and Wooly West. Here is an example: One of my grandchildren’s Genealogy # is 58,221,332.
Here is where it gets interesting I think. Some of my ancestors were involved in the WHISKEY REBELLION (1794) that set precedents that are still controversial today. This was an insurrection in the Pennsylvania and Virginia counties West of the Allegheny Mountains. It grew out of the federal excise tax on spirits enacted three years earlier to finance the plan of Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton for the assumption of state debts. The western farmers, most of whom were of Scotch-Irish extraction, used the whiskey they distilled from their grain not only as a beverage but also to barter for supplies in the Eastern and New Orleans markets. Further, the law required that it be paid in money, of which they had very little.
Since much of the whiskey produced in the U.S was distilled in their region, they felt that they were being called upon to bear an unjust burden of the debt assumption. Moreover, they asserted it was a scheme designed to fill the pockets of a few speculators in the Eastern Cities. Another of their grievances was that persons prosecuted for violations of the law were tried 350 miles away in the Federal Court at Philadelphia. Western Pennsylvania became astir with violent attacks on enforcement officers and protest meetings – the beginnings of the “Moonshiners!” against the “Revenooers!”
At Hamilton’s behest, President George Washington issued a proclamation ordering the insurgents to disperse, asking the Governors of Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland and Virginia to call out 13,000 Militiamen. They assembled in Carlisle, PA.
As soon as the militia crossed the mountains, all resistance collapsed. Oaths of Allegiance to the Federal Laws were obtained from a large number of citizens. Although a number of insurgents were arrested, their most violent leaders escaped down the Mississippi River. Washington later pardoned some of the men who had been convicted.
The Whiskey Rebellion and Insurrection were important in that they demonstrated for the first time the Power of the Federal Government and the prerogatives of the President. There’s not much specifically spelled out or written in the Constitution about that!
So now, are we nothing more than a collection of little people trying to hang onto our own small patch of turf and hostile to everyone else about it or are we the United States of America. I like to think we are the latter.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 23, 2011
at 2:10 AM
I am usually just a lurker, but- since I am a breast cancer survivor, and I just lost my beloved sister to her fourth battle with this awful disease- I am sending good vibes to you, Craig and your wife Val. As far as my family experience, comparing PET and/or CT scans was the most helpful to us; we could understand if treatment was working, or why the protocol was changed…or why my sister decided to let go. Also- I hope the center has a nutritionist on staff, to help you both find foods that are appealing that will help in the fight.
Best wishes-
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By: COalmostNative on March 22, 2011
at 10:37 PM
tammyharper,
I’m a RePug and have a son in Navy reserves and back our Military.
But do you remember Grenada?
We lost a lot of good people there..
And now we have another tourist island with 4th estate med school..if its still there.
And living in Texas..I also agree about protecting our borders which leads me to believe we would be better off bombing Tijuana, Ciudad Juárez,Acuapulco, Matamoros, Naco,Agua Prieta..and thats just for starters.
Hell they just celebrated the Columbus New Mexico raid by Pancho Villa last week..then arrest several of the American ..”Hispanic” local officials for trafficking arms to the Mexican cartels.
Texas whipped Mexico’s ass once. Just let us have another chance. We still want our New Orleans Grey’s flag back from the Alamo. One or two Cruise missile’s and a little looking the other way and we would have no more problems South of the border.
This is with a lil tongue planted in cheek.
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By: Craig on March 22, 2011
at 9:10 PM
Pfesser ,
I can scan and send latest radiologist report.
Its Greek to me. Its three pages and concerns the markers of the latest PET scan.
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By: Craig on March 22, 2011
at 8:51 PM
President Obama sends troops into Libya to protect civilians,
Isn’t that what the Governor of Arizona wants to do and he is suing Arizona?
Go figure!
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By: tammyharper on March 22, 2011
at 7:08 PM
“So lets take a deep breath and be friends.”
Agreed.
********************
re: scar. The chemo is not perfect, but it is pretty good and may be really knocking the tumor down to the level that it is not picking up enough tracer to be seen. The machine spits out numbers that reflect how much the tumor is taking up tracer and it sounds like those numbers are going down for the spinal areas. That is good news for sure. Insignificant, huh? That is another great word to hear.
The mass you still feel could be scar – read that Dead Tumor. Maybe that is what the radiologist meant and why you can feel it but it is not taking up tracer. If so, that is Really Good News.
I use CT to follow most tumors, but only because we don’t have PET here, which is a combination of CT and nuclear medicine and has the benefit of both. It sounds to me like everything is very much on track.
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By: Pfesser on March 22, 2011
at 6:53 PM
Best wishes to Val for her recovery.
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By: Shash on March 22, 2011
at 4:27 PM
Truce. We’re pulling for you, Craig!
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By: No one's puppet on March 22, 2011
at 12:54 PM
NOP..
PFesser has been in touch now for about three months almost since this situation started in late December. He offered his 5 cents worth off line and I took him up on it.
So Yes I have conversed with Doctor J., a radiologist.
He’s been most helpful. Not trying to hide anything here.
I have bounced a couple things off of him ,compared notes about Val’s treatment and we have talked maybe two to three times by phone. He is what he says he is. He Dr. J, was just another resource.
Everyone here on the porch have been a resource in one way or another from treatments of symptoms to advice on driving conditions to get to Dallas and back.
I appreciate all of you from James to YOU..NOP to LORI, Megann,delurkergurl,Alaskipi and Poolman. and on and on ..
Thanks to all.
Val had her second treatment this am. She’s sleeping the ativan IV off that they give her for nausea. She cut it down from half of last weeks dosage but still is knocking her goofy. I think she’s going stop it from now on ..she has pills at home if need be.
PFesser..,
Peculiar, the radiologist said this am that the reason the tumor was not picked up is that it may be just scar tissue from the biopsy..strange though that its palpable still from a December procedure.
He also said the points of interest on her spine may be getting smaller…and may be insignificant. What he said he saw most of, was evidence of her working out at gym.
So go figure…? I know the C is still there..it just doesn’t go away, cause the nodes are still enlarged.
So lets take a deep breath and be friends.
.
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By: Craig on March 22, 2011
at 12:42 PM
NOP –
1) I am actually a medical doctor.
2) Diagnostic Radiology.
3) Nobody is “inserting” anywhere. Whatever Craig asks, I answer, and I have specifically asked him several times if he is comfortable discussing these questions here – and have reminded him that he has my telephone number if he is NOT comfortable. He has indicated that he is.
4) Your weirdness is your own problem. I am *very* secure and haven’t the slightest concern over the value judgments of others. I come here to debate and to learn; other than defending myself when necessary, the personal stuff just goes overboard like the poo on a battleship.
5) And while we’re at it, let’s get something else straight here: Craig is not Val’s next of kin. He is her husband. “Next of kin” refers to someone who is dead, and I think we are a long, long way from that.
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By: PFesser on March 22, 2011
at 11:48 AM
PFesser, I forget, or never knew, are you an actually medical doctor? Specialty? I find it suspect that you would be discussing Val’s condition, treatment, and test results (which you haven’t seen) with her next of kin. A little general information with a distant relative or friend about a medical condition is one thing, sort of Dr. Oz of the Internet, but Craig is part of Valerie’s medical team, a very important part of that team. It is just plan weird, that you would be inserting yourself into another medical team’s case.
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By: No one's puppet on March 22, 2011
at 11:15 AM
Craig, there is nothing wrong with being the squeaking wheel, if I were in your position, the next of kin of the patient, I would be on the phone calling the Oncologist’s office every hour on the hour until my phone calls were returned. It is to be expected, that you want answers to your questions!
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By: No one's puppet on March 22, 2011
at 10:50 AM
“I have read about drugs which reduce the construction of new blood vessels which feed a tumor. Is the research promising, and does it only apply to the primary tumor?”
The biggest problem in fighting cancer is that you are fighting *yourself*. Bacteria? No problem; it’s a plant, so use a herbicide. But cancer is your own tissue.
How to attack? Look for some difference. Several years ago somebody noticed that in normal circumstances, there are very few new blood vessels being made in the body, but in cancer they are a requirement for the tumor to live, since it is growing new tissue continuously. Any metabolically active tissue needs blood vessels within about 2mm to provide oxygen and nutrients; tumors often partially die of their own accord when their growth outstrips blood supply.
That’s about all I know. The anti-angiogenesis drugs are effective but generally not curative so I’m told. Just one more tool in the oncologist’s armamentarium. sp? My understanding is they work for the primary and the metastases also.
The answer is out there. Just gotta find it. Just *gotta* *find* *it*.
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By: PFesser on March 22, 2011
at 10:31 AM
Thankyou for posting that tammyharper.In the words of Chris Mathews, “tell me something I don’t know.” A long time ago, Poolman and I discussed the war in Iraq. He maintained it was illegal. I thought it was in a twilight zone with interpretations either way. I think this attack occupies the same ground.
The press and left pilloried Bush especially when the war went bad. Some are criticizing Obama, but most are quiet. Time will tell if they prove themselves to be hyprocrites.
PFessor, look at our government, and see the answer to your question about rank amateurs .
Your medical discussions are educational, and I admire Craig and Valery for their courage and determination.
I have read about drugs which reduce the construction of new blood vessels which feed a tumor. Is the research promising, and does it only apply to the primary tumor?
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By: James on March 22, 2011
at 8:46 AM
PFessor, yes, changes in the ocean level have been profound since the peak of the Ice Age. Many villages still rest under water near coasts across the world. A land bridge helped Asians migrate to America and probably did the same for people in Southeast Asia as they leap frogged from island to island.
18,000 years ago, the Sahara Desert was a savanna, and people were learning to use and eat small grains. They made flour and were settling in villages. Those tribes were on to verge of inventing agriculture, but the climate changed, and aridity drove the people away. Had the Sahara stayed relatively moist, agriculture would have changed societies’ thousands of years before it did.
Of course, we face many short term climatic fluctuations such as the Little Ice Age and a two hundred year plains drought. We are overdue for another. For at least five hundred years, the Midwest has had a serious drought roughly every twenty years. The last was in 1988. They are often associated with la ninia conditions which prevail now.
Consider the rising food prices and growing demand. Imagine the psychological and real impact if we have a drought this summer.
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By: James on March 22, 2011
at 7:57 AM
Interesting morning reading: Why it is always a bad idea to put rank amateurs in positions of power.
http://jewishworldreview.com/0311/glick032211.php3
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By: Pfesser on March 22, 2011
at 4:45 AM
Craig –
Sorry – I’ll try to keep it more down to earth. The information base has gotten so super-specialized that sometimes it is hard to stay connected.
That reminds me of when I was taking some EE classes back in the late ‘nineties. We “students” were off for our usual lunch at the local Chinese restaurant, walking along and chatting. Someone remarked about some amazing programming problem solved by one of the professors, and that even though we were all seniors, Dr. P’s information seemed so very far above our own that it was depressing. I had to chuckle a little and told the kid that “the difference between an undergraduate education and a doctorate is almost beyond comprehension.” He just looked at me and said, “How do you know that?” I looked back at him and we all started laughing. He had forgotten for a minute that we weren’t ALL just a few years out of high school.
The medical stuff is the same – you get so far down the road to ultraspecialization that it’s hard to get back. Even though I have done just about every job and avocation, sometimes it’s tough. I feel sorry for the docs who are trying to explain things to their patients when their only world experiences are their own medical specialty and golf. LOL Again, apologies. I’ll try to do better.
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By: PFesser on March 22, 2011
at 3:08 AM
NOP..and PFesser
That was our first order of business for today..but you can’t ever get a doc when you need one. WE definitely have the same concerns and questions. Val has her second
Chemo tomorrow am. Hopefully we can get to the Oncologist next door and or the PA and get more definitive explanations about the tests. Yes PFesser I have the # and I may call you soon.
Thanks and Peace all.
Oh and PFesser you really know how to speak Medical BS. Your way beyond my understanding. I sleep next to a Psychiatrist so by osmosis I have learned a bit
over the past 30 plus years of Psychiatry. That’s why I act for the Med students in their one on one interview tests. I’ve developed quite a reputation for being “real”.
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By: Craig on March 21, 2011
at 9:38 PM
Craig –
OK, it was a PET scan – that makes more sense. PET is an interesting kind of scan that basically reveals metabolic activity by searching for the utilization of glucose. Of course, everything uses glucose, but you are looking for areas of very high utilization, which is typical of the runaway metabolism of cancer. The glucose is tagged with radioactive fluorine, F 18, so it can be picked up by scanning. The fluorine decays by positron emission, which is to say it emits a positive electron (antimatter) which then undergoes annihilation when it meets an ordinary negative electron, giving off two high-energy photons in opposite directions. A very high-tech, pretty sensitive technique.
Interesting physics aside (You can’t spell geek without EE, LOL), I am somewhat puzzled by the lack of uptake by the primary tumor. It is in a superficial location and should be definitely visible. The lack of metabolic activity may mean that the primary tumor is being damaged by the chemo, etc. That’s good, but I would feel a lot better if the other metastases did the same.
I don’t know how comfortable you feel discussing the medical particulars online, but as always my phone lines remain open if you think I can be of help. NOP’s advice is good; it is a health care team, but there should be just one quarterback, and that I believe that should be the oncologist. Just my .05.
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By: Pfesser on March 21, 2011
at 7:00 PM
Presidential candidate Obama (12-07) states: “The president does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.
” Except when I’M president.” ?
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By: tammyharper on March 21, 2011
at 6:50 PM
Craig, I’m not a doctor or scientist, but it would seem if there was an anomaly on Val’s test result, the doctor would order more tests. This is a rough patch for the two of you, I am sure, and it must be real tempting to look to outside sources, anywhere and everywhere for, not only, more encouraging, but also conflicting possibilities. The old dotting the (I)s and crossing the (T)s thing, but perhaps, you should follow up her tests with a discussion with her oncologist, so you know exactly what is happening and what to expect. I hate to think, you are scaring yourself unnecessarily. Pulling for you!
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By: No one's puppet on March 21, 2011
at 11:51 AM
Pfesser,
It was a PET scan which was done.
It lit up the nodes in neck and underarm..and also 4 spots on her spine. There were three (3) there in December.
The tumor in breast, which is now palpable, did not light up…
Thanks for your response.
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By: Craig on March 21, 2011
at 10:37 AM
“Fast forward to ‘modern’ times. I understand the Christian Scientists eschew medical intervention, especially blood transfusion. And more recently, on the basis of ONE English physician’s advice, some Americans are afraid to have their children immunized for measles because he thinks the vaccine causes autism. ”
The radiologist who replaced me in WV many years ago has three autistic children. He and his wife are great people, but they have been sucked into doing chelation on their kids and tried to convince me that my ADD kid needed all these metal levels checked, and then blood chelation therapy. They are convinced that their kids’ autism came from a reaction to immunizations. He’s a doctor, so it’s not just people without medical training who get suckered into this stuff. I feel really bad for them.
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By: Pfesser on March 20, 2011
at 7:35 PM
James –
re: climate change. I just went to VA Beach for a couple days’ vacation with the wife and boys. We went to the aquarium and I ran across something on one of the descriptor boards that amazed me: “During the last ice age (18,000 years ago), the ocean level at this location was 450 feet lower.”
I had always looked at the map of Chesapeake Bay and surmised that it was nothing but a flooded valley, with the ridges on each side still above water, but the above was quite a surprise to me. 18,000 yrs wasn’t that long ago and -450′ is a pretty low ocean. It makes me wonder more than ever if this “climate change” nee global warming is much ado about nothing, as my old roomie Bill Shakespeare used to say…
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By: Pfesser on March 20, 2011
at 7:25 PM
Craig –
Was it a sonogram that lit up or a bone scan?
A bone scan would show the metastases to the spine but not the breast tumor, so that sounds right. The bone scan works on the principle of “bone turnover” and looks for calcium hydroxyapatite being incorporated at a more rapid pace than usual, as in metastatic disease, but would likely not see the breast mass. She will have to follow it with something else. A sonogram would most likely see the breast mass and any nodes. I typically follow this kind of tumor with a CT scan, since it is easy, reliable and will see all those things above in one test. Forgive me for kind of crawfishing, but I am not sure what kind of test she had. Was it a sonogram for sure?
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By: Pfesser on March 20, 2011
at 7:16 PM
Really like “Mad Mikes America.” Thanks!
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By: No one's puppet on March 20, 2011
at 2:10 PM
Holte Ender at Mad Mikes America (news and commentary) pointed me to this blog and I am glad that he did. You crack me up! I live in Dallas and so the post was especially meaningful to me.
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By: John Myste on March 20, 2011
at 11:43 AM
Craig, my wife and I did the same as you did, only we watched the moon on Friday night because last night was cloudy. Do you know if it is safe to eat ice cream to curb heart burn? I had awful heartburn when I took medication for pericarditis. Without counsulting the doctor, I ate a few spoonfuls of ice cream which helped.
I told the doctor, and he said I had done the right thing. He had forgotten to tell me the medicine could cause ulcers. Obviously, I should have asked the doctor first because ice cream might have adversly interacted with the medication I was taking.
Jean makes some good points, but connecting Europe’s Dark Ages with losing control of the SilK Route is a stretch. Some of my ancestors, the Vikings played a larger role as demographics forced younger sons to find their fortunes in foreign lands. Climate change which caused famines and discord also played a role. During that time Ireland was one of the most important bastions of intellectual development in Europe.
Mummified blond and red headed central Europeans rest in parts of western China. The dry air preserved many of their bodies almost perfectly. Several bodies five to seven thousand years old show signs of surgery, including stitches. They also produced other cultural and technological achievements. Some female warriors were buried with their weapons as men were.
Their descendants likely controlled the Silk Route before it was the Silk Road. They also gave rise to the Amazon legends. This is only my conjecture and it is a greater leap than any Jean has made, but I think it is possible Arabs learned something from those early tribes.
Yes, Arabs were intellectual super powers long ago, but they lost their creative mojo before the Ottoman Empire became the “sick man of Europe.” Maybe climate change contributed to their decline.
One reason I dislike the main stream media is how they helped President Obama cover his tracks. Tom Brokaw said on Charlie Rose’s show “We really don’t know much about the man. We don’t even know what he reads.” It was their job to find out and tell us, but they failed. I did some research, and his potential election frightened me. He has done some good things which I support, but his short comings outweigh his achievements.
If Hillary had been a viable alternative, I would have voted for her. I would have given money to her campaign.
I have a bad feeling about this. It seems so simple, but so did the invasion of Iraq. The world needs a “policeman” to save us from anarchy. Who if not us? The UN, China, Russia? I support Obama’s letting other countries take a leading role, because they should, and it will save us money. But I again, I am afraid of surprises which lie ahead.
I am one Republican who does not want Sarah Palin to run. I want Republicans to win the White House, but as it stands now, I think Obama will win a second term. Sarah Palin does more good as a non-candidate with the aura of possibility. If she loses in the next election, she takes Republicans with her.
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By: James on March 20, 2011
at 9:53 AM
Tonight My Valerie and I went out to see the moon as it will be the closest to the earth this evening till sometime in 2028. We held each other and thought about our past 46 years together. We kissed and cried and yet said little as each of us told the other almost at the same time that we knew what each other was thinking.
We want grand children together..more Christmas’s, time to travel and be with our son and his wife and see their growth. We want more time to hold and look at many more moons and continued New Years together.
Val has had a rough three days since ingestion of Xeloda pills along with her chemo drip. It has zapped her strength and she cannot do her workout without repeated stops. She is having quite a bout with heart burn or pain in the upper GI due to the treatment. So finally its coming home that she is ill but will not rest. I think this weekend has been her wake up call that she is sick.
Her Monday sonogram bothers me..in that it came back positive for the nodes and four spots on her spine but failed to light up her tumor in her breast which is clearly palpable. This does not give me clear evidence that the cancer has not spread anywhere else as the Radiologist reported. How can you miss a tumor the size of a small golf ball?
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By: Craig on March 19, 2011
at 9:48 PM
PerFessor,
I agree completely with your assessment.
Even though my son is still in the Reserves and know he will go to Afghanistan..it pains me to continue to see us as the worlds military policeman.
I could easily vote democrat. Or should I America first..the rest of you get in line.
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By: Craig on March 19, 2011
at 9:31 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
It seems we are off and running to war – again. Well, we have all that high-tech weaponry sitting around, bought and paid for. We might as well see how it works. And we have plenty of young men that can be taken out of the gene pool. It appears that some of the hyper-testosterone types want to keep the ancient Semitic family feud between Isaac and Ishmael going indefinitely.
Isn’t it curious that Robert Mugabe has been brutalizing his people in Zimbabwe for about as long as Gaddafi has in Libya. How come the world community hasn’t taken Mugabe out? Oh, yeah. Zimbabwe doesn’t have any oil or anything else anybody wants.
I researched and put some of this up in M&H’s some time ago. Maybe this is a good time for a refresher course. After the Muslims defeated the Christian Europeans and took control of the famous overland “Silk Route” to the Far East trade, Europe fell into the ‘Dark Ages’ for 500 years. It wasn’t until England took command of the high seas to get around to Asia again that Europe began to emerge once again.
Between 628 and 1058 Arabs made enormous strides in all areas of their endeavors. After they invaded and conquered parts of peaceful Hindu India, along with the usual spoils of war, they brought orange trees and spread them throughout southern Europe, especially in Spain for the first time. Cotton was introduced into Europe from India by the Arabs. Muslin cotton and damask linen from Damascus are two from their rich fabric heritage. To grow cotton, canals and extensive irrigation systems were devised to bring the usually arid desert lands into productivity.
A fascinating bit of innovation was another import (stolen?) from India. The Vedic religion of the Hindus invented and then developed “fables” as a means of teaching moral values. The Moslems brought this type of stories back from India and they eventually became incorporated into Western lore.
The Caliph Harun al-Rashid (789-809), a contemporary of Charlemagne, proposed a Suez Canal. His idea simmered for a thousand years until the French, with some financial backing from the English, finally completed building it in 1869. The construction of that canal took ten years.
The windmill was in use in Arab countries long before it first appeared in Europe in the twelfth century. They beat Marco Polo to China by 425 years. The technique for making paper was brought from China, making possible the manufacture of books. Paper had been in use in China since 105. By 794, books were common in Baghdad. They did not appear in Germany until 1228 and in England until 1309.
The technology of tempered steel was brought from India to Persia. The Arabs took it from Persia and made it into the celebrated “Damascus” blades and later into Toledo steel. Other Muslim Arab incursions into China brought back gunpowder, the compass and playing cards, first to the Middle East and eventually, Europe. Another ingenious first was the use of carrier pigeons.
From about 700 on, the Islamic world experienced a virtual Renaissance similar to that of the Italian during the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries in Europe. They made astonishing advances in science and mathematics. ‘Arabic numerals’ and zeros used in astronomy were brought from Hindu India in 662. The Arabic word, “safir”, meaning, “empty” became the English word, “cipher”. In the hands of Latin scholars, “safir” translated into “zephyrum”, in turn shortened into “zero” by the Italians. The Muslims also imported the decimal system from India, which of course, ultimately spread to Europe.
The Arabs are credited with developing algebra. As a matter of fact, algebra was literally OUTLAWED in Europe for over two hundred years. (Right on!) “Algebra” is from the Arabic words, ”al-jabr”, that translates “restitution”, “completion” or “adjustment”. For those interested, they also came up with tables in trigonometry and other higher mathematics. During this time their astronomers automatically assumed from their calculations that the earth was round!
The Arabs very nearly invented the science of chemistry. As was most of Medieval learning in this field, it was tied into alchemy and the occult. Jabir ibn Hayyan (702-765) well known in Europe as Gebir, was the most famous. Because of his work in alchemy he came up with the concept of the scientific experimental method five hundred years before Roger Bacon.
Ali al-Masuda compiled a thirty-volume encyclopedia. As a historian, he compared favorably to Pliny and Herodotus. This native of Baghdad postulated a theory of evolution, mineral to plant to animal to man. Of course, this did not set well with fundamentalist Muslims and he spent the last ten years of his life in Cairo in exile where he died in 956.
Of course, most of those people were not theologians. When people prosper economically through conquest and trade, they have the leisure to pursue the arts, humanities and science. If the vast majority of the public is economically just getting by at the subsistence level, under-educated and provincial, then they are gullible and easy prey to the propaganda put out by those greedy for power and political influence. (This is just fine with the present governor of Wisconsin.) Religiosity and patriotism have always been the most effective tools.
Fast forward to ‘modern’ times. I understand the Christian Scientists eschew medical intervention, especially blood transfusion. And more recently, on the basis of ONE English physician’s advice, some Americans are afraid to have their children immunized for measles because he thinks the vaccine causes autism. Sheesh!
Aloha! 🙂 Shalom. Namaste.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 19, 2011
at 9:15 PM
Craig –
I’m taking a few days at the beach and I just saw that we are in ANOTHER war, this time in Libya.
We do not deserve to lead the world. We cannot mind our own business because we are too damned busy imposing our personal morals on everyone else. Why do we feel the continued need to spend, spend, spend on our military, while people here not only sometimes don’t have enough to eat; they don’t even have somewhere to live? We DESERVE to be owned by the Chinese; our whole country is falling apart and we are adventuring – AGAIN.
That tears it. I don’t care if the ReBiblicans run Sarah Palin; even though I voted for him in 2008, whoever runs against Barack Obama in 2010 has my vote. Feh.
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By: PFesser on March 19, 2011
at 7:23 PM
From watching today’s geo-political developments..
I must say I’m becoming more impressed with Sec. of State Clinton in her demeanor, public speaking and candor while operating within the confines of her post. Perhaps the wrong demo did run for President?
Too bad we had to sit on our hands for three weeks while Muammar Gaddafi rolled across Libya..and now have to ask him pretty please with a bomb attached.
Nobody wanted another front, but our President could have cut this snakes head off early with the blessing of the rest of the Mediterranean governments who amazingly watched idly with their own imported American fighters sitting on their tarmacs. And safely I might add.
It all had to come down to the oil and the facxt that the French,British and other European countries finally had to act or otherwise find a new supplier and at a higher price. The wily Saudi’s did not reach out to help much, except to “say” they would back up any oil shortages.
IMHO
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By: Craig on March 19, 2011
at 3:23 PM
I am one of those Democrats, who want Sarah Palin to run for President.
http://gawker.com/#!5783033/independents-pick-sheen-over-palin-for-president
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By: No one's puppet on March 19, 2011
at 10:15 AM
Here ya go A Jean.. Good article. 😉
Enjoy your weekend all! Mageen if you are around please drop a note in dekurker’s kitchen. I might know of a possible job opportunity for your son. He does have a business degree, yes?
namaste
http://www.newbernsj.com/articles/most-95787-obama-follow.html
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By: lori on March 18, 2011
at 3:43 AM
Interesting little column from a short while ago:
I am an Orthodox rabbi who lives in New Jersey but works in New York City. Approximately half of my waking life is lived under your laws and jurisdiction. Like everyone who lives or works in New York City, I have the right, even the obligation, to confront some of your policies regarding so-called “gun control”.
A short time ago, Arabian speeches at the U.N. urged the Arab World to boycott everything that originates with the Jewish people.
In response, Meyer M. Treinkman, a pharmacist, out of the kindness of his heart, offers to assist them in their boycott as follows:
“Any Arab who has Syphilis must not be cured by Salvarsan discovered by a Jew, Dr. Ehrlich.
He should not even try to find out whether he has Syphilis, because the Wasserman Test is the discovery of a Jew.
If an Arab suspects that he has Gonorrhea, he must not seek diagnosis, because he will be using the method of a Jew named Neissner.
An Arab who has heart disease must not use Digitalis, a discovery by a Jew, Ludwig Traube.
Should he suffer with a toothache, he must not use Cocaine, a discovery of the Jews, Widal and Weil.
If an Arab has Diabetes, he must not use Insulin, the result of research by Minkowsky, a Jew.
If an Arab has a headache, he must shun Pyramidon and Antypyrin, due to the Jews, Spiro and Ellege.
Arabs with convulsions must put up with them because it was a Jew, Oscar Leibreich, who proposed the use of Chloral Hydrate.
Arabs must do likewise with their psychic ailments because Freud, father of psychoanalysis, was a Jew.
Should an Arab child get Diptheria, he must refrain from the “Schick” reaction which was invented by the Jew, Bella Schick.
Arabs should be ready to die in great numbers and must not permit treatment of ear and brain damage, work of Nobel Prize winner, Robert Baram.
They should continue to die or remain crippled by Infantile Paralysis because the discoverer of the anti-polio vaccine is a Jew, Jonas Salk.
Arabs must refuse to use Streptomycin and continue to die of Tuberculosis because a Jew, Zalman Waxman, invented the wonder drug against this killing disease.
Arab doctors must discard all discoveries and improvements by dermatologist Judas Sehn Benedict, or the lung specialist, Frawnkel, and of many other world renowned Jewish scientists and medical experts.
In short, good and loyal Arabs properly and fittingly remain afflicted with Syphilis, Gonorrhea, Heart Disease, Headaches, Typhus, Diabetes, Mential Disorders, Polio, Convulsions and Tuberculosis and be proud to obey the Islamic boycott.”
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By: PFesser on March 17, 2011
at 9:34 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
Again, help!!! Would one of you computer geniuses please put up a link to Gene Lyons’ latest column? It is entitled: “Obama should lead the parade.”
Lyons is dear to my heart, partly because he is such a talented writer, but also because he is a flaming liberal. This column is right up there with Helen for wit and wisdom. The way he takes Gingrich to the woodshed is hilarious!!!
On a more serious note, there is also a short editorial column, (Mar. 14) from
“The Patriot-News” of Harrisburg, PA entitled “On elder care.” As an “Elder”, fortunately I have never been subjected to elder abuse or neglect, but apparently it is more common than any of us in our country like to admit.
Thank you in advance.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 17, 2011
at 9:30 PM
Happy St. Patrick’s to you too Jean! Hope everyone is wearing green today.
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By: No one's puppet on March 17, 2011
at 12:59 PM
Morning Congenial Gang,
Happy St, Paddy’s Day everyone!!! On March 17, everyone is Irish.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 17, 2011
at 12:47 PM
It is just terrible about what is going on at the Nuclear Reactors in Japan. But the problem will not be solved by these Fly-bys dumping sea water from the helicopters. You can see from the videos that the water is just not reaching the reactor. Come on, people…THINK! It is really very simple. Attach a cable to Helen and slowly lower her into the reactor. Once her big fat ass is in place, problem over. Crisis solved. Disaster diverted. Oh…and throw Margaret in there as well…just incase any radiation slips out. God speed Margaret & Helen!
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By: BR549 on March 17, 2011
at 11:35 AM
Dear Helen, Margaret, and/or Matthew, It’s just not fair that we haven’t heard anything from you for all too long. Please at least let us know that you are ok. It’s been almost 2 months. Perhaps you are so disgusted with politics in the USA that you find it painful to remark?
Oh well, back to lurking. But you are in my thoughts.
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By: hillsmom on March 17, 2011
at 9:57 AM
Oh, yeah. Happy St. Pat’s! Bye, I’m off to play the concertina and sing in public. Hopefully, nobody will throw things. Except for brew supplies. Those, I need.
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By: judith on March 17, 2011
at 9:42 AM
“I for one believe there are no simplistic answers to complex questions.”
“Sometimes true, but never say never. Saying, “It’s too complicated; I can’t solve it” doesn’t mean there isn’t someone else out there who can solve “it” just fine.”
Sure. Just not with a simplistic answer. Check the modifier.
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By: judith on March 17, 2011
at 9:40 AM
I agree with alaskapi, Craig. If you and Valery weren’t terrified, something would be wrong with you. You can make your fears work to your advantage. Maybe it is my irrationality, but I still have a feeling you two will be together longer than the predictions.
Complicated problems can be solved. Remember Apollo 13. Many considered it lost, but luck and creativity brought it home. The same can happen for Valery and you as well as for the nuclear disaster in Korea.
But then, what do I know? Everything I understand “I learned in Kindergarten” the service and auto racing.
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By: James on March 17, 2011
at 9:16 AM
Jean on nuclear reactors and saltwater:
“My electronic piano has had to have the ‘mother board’ replaced. ” and “Magnify those silly little examples a gazillion times in the electronics necessary to run and maintain nuclear reactors. Well, you get the picture…… ”
No you don’t. Problems with your electric piano don’t scale to nuclear powerplants. Even undergraduate electrical, nuclear or mechanical engineers have a kind of education unknown to those in the liberal arts; for designers of nuclear reactors, handling salt spray in the air is a problem to be solved on the back of a napkin over a couple of doughnuts.
“I for one believe there are no simplistic answers to complex questions.”
Sometimes true, but never say never. Saying, “It’s too complicated; I can’t solve it” doesn’t mean there isn’t someone else out there who can solve “it” just fine. There ARE answers to complex questions, even if you don’t have them.
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By: PFesser on March 17, 2011
at 4:51 AM
Hi Congenial Gang,
The magnitude of the problems being created by the damaged nuclear reactors in Japan is so far beyond the comprehension of us ordinary folks, it blows my mind. I did have chemistry and other science courses at the undergraduate level in college, but what the experts are facing and have to come up with rapid solutions for – now – is mind boggling to me.
This much I do know. Out here we have some fairly significant difficulties with salt water, salt spray, and high humidity that landlocked people never experience. During our 4-5 years off and on as tourists, we loved to stay in hotels or condos right on the ocean. Early on in one of the condos, I pulled out the bottom drawer of the stove looking for something. It was empty. The entire drawer was completely rusted out. The outside maintenance staff was continually hosing down the salt spray on the windows so we could see out! Of course we had daily maid service to vacuum and sweep out the fine sand on the lanai that even the gentle trade winds blew in. The condo complex was of fairly new construction.
Aside from the fact that beachfront properties are prohibitively expensive, ‘boy toy’ and I are both born and bred mountain people. For our permanent residence we wanted some elevation! Never ending window washing, vacuuming and sweeping out sand wasn’t my idea of how I wanted to spend MY retirement! That backfired too. When we were warned that Hurricane Iniki was on its way in 1991, Big Mouthed Jean said, “Don’t worry. By the time it gets up here, it will blow itself out.” Yeah. Our little island is almost circular, 35 miles in diameter. Iniki was 55 miles in diameter! It hit us dead on and completely enveloped the island.
We also found out the hard way that any metals, cars and even solid brass lamps became pitted and corroded in a short length of time. The effects of high humidity are brutal on electronics. Without proper care, most computers have about one third of the life as those on dry, flat land. My electronic piano has had to have the ‘mother board’ replaced. Later it began to ‘crackle’ whenever I turned it on, indicative of shorting out. I was advised by a piano expert to always leave it on overnight. Just that small amount of heat evaporates the humidity. If the water vapor is from salt spray however, just imagine the salt deposits that are left behind after the evaporation.
Magnify those silly little examples a gazillion times in the electronics necessary to run and maintain nuclear reactors. Well, you get the picture……
The bluster of the oracles’ soothsaying away about things they know absolutely nothing about would be humorous if they didn’t take themselves so seriously and expect other people to do so too. I for one believe there are no simplistic answers to complex questions.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 17, 2011
at 1:03 AM
Craig-
It’s ok to be scared as hell.
The world as you know it just changed.
Sit a spell and catch your breath.
You’ll get your feet back on firmer ground.
Hang right in there and best wishes for you both.
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By: alaskapi on March 16, 2011
at 10:13 PM
I think the difference is a matter of temprement. My glass tends to be half full, and my wife’s half empty. She also wants to fix things and make them better as you do NOP. Nothing is wrong with either attitude. Its just the way people are. You will learn to at least give lip service to Valery’s half full glass, because you are her most important cheerleader.
Your being so open about this is a lesson for us all. In your way, you two are teaching us about how to cope with something like this when it is our turn. As Red Green says “We’re pulling for you.”
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By: James on March 16, 2011
at 9:00 PM
Must say Craig, I like Valerie’s attitude better than yours, it seems she is determined to live her life with grace, that is a beautiful thing. Don’t get me wrong, I would be more like you at this point, I always want to fix things and make it better for those I love, I think you might be the same way. I think we all realize how hard this is for you and hope things get better for both of you.
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By: No one's puppet on March 16, 2011
at 6:13 PM
My wife’s posting ..as my glass continues to be half empty.
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/valerierobinson
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By: Craig on March 16, 2011
at 5:42 PM
Numbers and connections normally don’t mean much to me tammyharper, but I just scanned headlines on the Drudge Report. Maybe you are on to something.
Here are some more numbers:
My father’s birthday March 11
My mother’s birthday June 12
My birthday October 13
My younger brother’s birthday January 14.
Lady GaGa and her Poker Face are aces high around here. Her boyfriend is from southeast Nebraska, and when they hung out in Omaha and Lincoln over the winter, they made a good impression. A local woman who was a junior high classmate also gave a favorable interview in the Omaha World Herald.
According to a local radio station, Gwen Stafani and Madonna are distantly related through a Canadian ancestor. Madonna and Lady GaGa are cousins. I don’t know if that connection or tammyharper’s dates are more frightening.
It will take a while for the Japanese to rebuild from that devistation.
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By: James on March 16, 2011
at 4:46 PM
September 11,New York…January 11,Haiti,…..March11,Japan…….Luke21:10-11 And nation shall rise up against nation and kingdom against kingdom
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By: tammyharper on March 16, 2011
at 1:02 PM
“I took that to mean they refused to give their income level, if we’re looking at the same spot on the poll. They answered the the favorably question but refused to give their income level.”
OK – thanks. Of course that changes the statistical model, but it sounds plausible.
On another front, the friend whose daughter had the leaking brain aneurysm sent me something:
It blew my socks off. Slide the vertical bar on the pictures right and left.
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By: PFesser53 on March 16, 2011
at 11:21 AM
@PFesser on March 15, 2011 at 6:01 AM
I took that to mean they refused to give their income level, if we’re looking at the same spot on the poll. They answered the the favorably question but refused to give their income level.
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By: delurkergurl on March 16, 2011
at 11:13 AM
As I understand it, the greater danger are the pools of spent fuel. Some have lost their cooling systems and there is no way at this time to correct the problem. This spent fuel is very hot and if the water boils off then it could become the “biggest dirty bomb”.
beyondnuclear.org – Was on Thom Hartmann yesterday
nukefree.org – If I remember correctly – has been arguing against nuclear power for 40 years so it may be a bit extreme.
“What happens if Republicans and Democrats play this game whenever the opposite party proposes legislation they don’t like?”
No, they’re too lazy to do that; they just filibuster 70+ times!
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 16, 2011
at 9:52 AM
Rachel Maddow makes clear what part of the problem is for those of us who don’t understand.
http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/03/16/6281333-whats-the-deal-with-spent-nuclear-fuel
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By: HRH sofia EQ on March 16, 2011
at 9:20 AM
A good book to read right now is “On the Beach.” Descriptions of radiation sickness symptoms in the book fit what we hear now. I read the book when I was in junior high and it taught me Australian geography.
KFAB Omaha hosts interviewed a scientist who compared the reactors to a heater on a stove. It has been turned off, but the heat remains for awhile. Thus, he said the heat in the reactors will slowly disperse as water is added.
The scientist who predicted the San Francisco earth quake says something big may happen around March 19.
Thanks PFessor for the “Life is Now” post. “Don’t Worry. Be Happy” All we have is now. We don’t even have this afternoon, and last night is just a memory.
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By: James on March 16, 2011
at 7:53 AM
Thanks for the explanation PFessor. I had heard sea water would destroy the core but that wasn’t the workers’ main concern.
Micheal Savage interviewed a nuclear expert who said the West Coast has little to worry about. The main problem will be several months of “hot” sushi. He said people near radiation should eat lots of tuna and other fish with a high iodine content. This will slow their bodies absorbtion of radioactive iodine isotopes. They should avoid taking the iodine pills some are pushing, because they have side effects and should not be ingested unless the danger is real.
I was shelter chief on an Air Force base. According to war game rules, we were safe in a tight enclosure. The radiation level determined how safe it was to be outside and for how long. It was my job to calculate the safe time if there was one.
No One’s Puppet, if you connect me with that “winning warlock” Charlie Sheen, you will be my heroine. I like 2 and 1/2 Men and some of his film work. He does need another intervention.
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By: James on March 16, 2011
at 7:26 AM
“I have heard on TV that they are pumping sea water into the nuclear reactors to keep them cool. Would the Sodium and Chloride react adversely with any other chemicals being released that would not necessarily occur with fresh water?”
The problem with the reporting is that the reporters generally don’t have a vanishingly small clue of how reactors work or how the containment systems are arranged. The best information I have found is this article from a techie at Tech.
http://tech.mit.edu/V131/N13/yost.html
As for the hydrogen, his surmise is that the cladding around the nuclear fuel rods may have been breached. I remember from high school chemistry that hydrogen is manufactured on a commercial scale by passing superheated steam over hot iron, which I suppose is possible, but doesn’t sound likely. From UCC Website:
“The manufacture of hydrogen on an industrial scale involves the reaction between steam and iron. Spongy iron from the reduction of spathic iron ore (ferrous carbonate) is heated to redness and steam passed over it.
3 Fe + 4 H2O ==> Fe3O4 + 4 H2
The hot ferrosoferric oxide, Fe3O4, is then reduced with water gas:
Fe2O4 + 4 H2 ==> 3 Fe + 4 H2O
Fe2O4 + 4CO ==> 3 Fe + 4 CO2 Water gas is made by passing steam over red hot carbon and it consists of a mixture of carbon monoxide and hydrogen, with a smaller amount of carbon dioxide:
bright-red
heat
C + H2O ==> CO + H2
dull-red
heat
C + 2 H2O ==> CO2 + 2 H2
”
As for dumping seawater into the core, best guess by folks who seem to know (NOT the lamestream media – apologies to Queen Esther), they do not believe this is necessary or being done, but it would basically render the core junk, with no other bad effects.
These plants produce immense amounts of heat to boil water to make steam for power generation; the control rods are automatically dropped if power is lost (deadman’s switch), so the primary reaction shut down immediately, but the secondary heat generation and residual heat goes on for quite a while, requiring cooling. It appears that a Chernobyl-like meltdown is not possible in these reactors. (The newest reactors (not these) have gravity-fed water from tanks for emergency cooling, so loss of pumps is not a problem.)
These reactors’ safety systems vis a vis earthquake worked just fine; they failed when buried in a tsunami, so the take-home lesson for America is that our reactors – a similar design to Japan’s – will be safe until a tsunami comes a couple of hundred miles inland.
For those with a scientific bent, I recommend Tech Review, the MIT magazine. It is now what Scientific American once was…sigh…
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By: PFesser on March 16, 2011
at 6:17 AM
These are some pretty tough times for many of us. I ran across this on Jewish World Review this morning and thought I would share:
LIFE IS NOW
By Rabbi Zelig Pliskin
Many people live in the past, brooding over bad choices they’d made or someone’s negative behavior to them years ago. Others live in the future, worrying about events that may happen — or may not. Here is the way to achieve lives of joy, courage, love and serenity is to live in the moment, to see the wonders of the present, to feel gratitude for what is happening right this minute. Right now we’re writing our life stories, and we can choose how the script will read. Right now we can put behind us self-doubt, anger, frustration.
Right now, we can choose happiness.
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By: PFesser on March 16, 2011
at 5:45 AM
Love that vid NOP thanks for sharing.
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By: lori on March 16, 2011
at 4:13 AM
Hi Congenial Gang,
This is one of the most delightful performances I have seen in a long time. She is a true virtuosa! I just had to share it with you.
http://www.flixxy.com/little-north-korean-girl-playing-guitar.htm
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 16, 2011
at 12:49 AM
M&H. Where are you my little darlin’s. So much going on in our world and you are quiet as church mice. Missing your pithy opinions!!!
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By: Robin on March 15, 2011
at 11:24 PM
If not James, I’ll try to hook you up with Charlie Sheen. “Winning!”
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By: No one's puppet on March 15, 2011
at 9:40 PM
I agree tammyharper.
I just talked to the man himself. I found Tony Schultz’s phone number and called. I told him I disagreed with some things he said but liked the way he said them. He was polite and said he appreciated talking to someone else who knows Populism. He borrowed themes from his college courses and recordings of Martin Luther King’s speeches.
He is too young to remember the late seventies and eighties farm recession, though his father and grand father have told stories. He met John Melencamp. I assume Melencamp was in Wisconsin, but I don’t know for sure. As you know, John Melencamp, Willy Nelson, and others helped organize Farm Aid in 1985.
If you hadn’t posted the link, No One’s Puppet, I would never have met him. He asked my name and address twice for some reason. Maybe I should be looking for men with badges carrying a restraining order. If so, I’ll tell them it was your fault.
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By: James on March 15, 2011
at 7:39 PM
Jean and James, no science wiz here, but I wondered about potential corrosion with the use of seawater. At this point, I told myself, don’t look for even more problems ahead, these poor people have enough on their plates for now.
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By: No one's puppet on March 15, 2011
at 7:10 PM
You know I was just joking NOP. Even so, our beliefs overlap, and I think both of us respect each other.
Thanks for the transcript, Cynthia. Our slow connection is now up to Badger Care. YouTube is all well and good, but nothing beats hearing a stem winder in person. I may try to get in touch with Mr. Schultz. He could have mentioned the Omaha Platform which was one of the first political documents to mention something like Social Security.
I don’t have a Chemistry related advanced degree, so I don’t know any more than Jean. However, one news report said they were using sea water as an act of desperation without regard to consequences.
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By: James on March 15, 2011
at 6:56 PM
Wonder if the Dems know they will have to stay in the state and show up for work to take their state back?
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By: tammyharper on March 15, 2011
at 6:30 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
I’m just curious. Is there anyone here who has advanced degrees and/or training in chemistry related subject? I have heard on TV that they are pumping sea water into the nuclear reactors to keep them cool. Would the Sodium and Chloride react adversely with any other chemicals being released that would not necessarily occur with fresh water?
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 15, 2011
at 5:35 PM
James, just so you know, I am the most liberal Democrat, you’ll like to ever meet.
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By: No one's puppet on March 15, 2011
at 5:02 PM
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/13/956096/-UPDATE-on-the-most-awesome-speech-you-will-hear-about-Wisconsin
UPDATE on the most awesome speech you will hear about Wisconsin
by Roby NJ .
A partial transcription by Roby NJ – transcription picks up at 3:50 in on the full You Tube video.
… and we are gonna take this state back!
And yet there are those who tell us that “This isn’t a farmer’s issue.” And these people have petty resentment that is amplified by right wing radio until they think that a fireman’s pension is the problem.
And then there are groups that represent this evil. The Dairy Business Association was here on Wednesday for Ag Day in the Capitol saying “Hooray for Walker’s budget.” Well I want you to know, that those aren’t farmers. They’re agribusiness corporations with a few factory farmers in front. And I want Wisconsin and the world to know that this is the real Ag Day at the Capitol.
This issue, it’s a farmer’s issue because our rural schools are getting decimated by this budget and they are the centers of our small towns and rural communities. In my hometown of Athens, 14 of 44 teachers got pink slips, will be laid off, because of this budget. It’s bad for our children’s education; it’s bad for the stability of our town; it’s bad for the very future of our school district; and we say NO.
This issue is a farmer’s issue because Scott Walker wants to hack Badger Care. Eleven thousand family farm members depend on Badger Care because of the exclusivity of for-profit health insurance companies and because of the pathetic and volatile price we receive for milk and other commodities that don’t meet the cost of our production. We depend on this and we support Badger Care.
This is a farmer’s issue because we have been battling…corporate power for more than a century. This budget could not be a clearer manifestation of corporate power. And we say NO.
This is a farmer’s issue because public workers are our friends, and our neighbors and our family members, and we stand in solidarity with them.
We’re all in this together. We go up together or we go down together. And the way I see it is we got two choices: I can have my unions busted and stand alone and be pitted against my neighbor in a desperate and unequal economy.
Or WE can come together to say “This is what our families need. This is what our communities need. This is what a just wage is. This is what democracy looks like.”
It’s a farmer’s issue because we understand, that an injury to one is an injury to all. Solidarity!
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 15, 2011
at 4:47 PM
Yes, I forgot to mention police and fire fighters. You and I agree farm subsidies will be cut over time. Have you noticed that on several subjects, we often agree more than we disagree? Maybe I should ask if you are a secret REPUBLICAN!! Ha Ha!
An e- pal from Tennessee told me my views fit the Democratic party in his area. We both agreed we should work to moderate our respective political parties.
Thanks to a doctor’s error, I have two birth certificates. Maybe I should get an id from one and register as a Democrat. Hee Hee!
Thank you, thank you for the video. As you know we have dial up, and I have been waiting for the speech to load for a couple of hours. Tony Schultz reminds me of the farmers who spoke up during the farm depression of the late seventies and eighties.
Another thing I like about it is a cousin lives about three counties northwest of the Schultz home.
As you know, Henry Fonda played Tom Joad in Grapes of Wrath. What you may not know is he was born in Nebraska as was Marlin Brando. The families knew each other.
Assuming everything keeps working, the entire video should be viewable in another three or four hours. Thanks again.
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By: James on March 15, 2011
at 3:31 PM
This is the video, enjoy!
http://tv.gawker.com/#!5781998/watch-a-wisconsin-farmers-inspiring-speech
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By: No one's puppet on March 15, 2011
at 10:49 AM
Major boo boo here, please disregard , so called video!
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By: No one's puppet on March 15, 2011
at 10:39 AM
I agree with you James, but I have a pretty good idea that farm subsidies will go or be greatly reduced, just like everything else. I also think police and firemen are two that I would name to my list. You going Democrat on us James?
Here is a video of a farmer’s speech, that I am dedicating to you James, but of course I hope everyone will watch it…. It is that important!
http://sn137w.snt137.mail.live.com/default.aspx?wa=wsignin1.0
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By: No one's puppet on March 15, 2011
at 10:36 AM
“What happens if Republicans and Democrats play this game whenever the opposite party proposes legislation they don’t like?”
They just filibuster 70+ times!
Letter Wisconsin Teacher Wrote to Scott Walker
http://motherjones.com/contributor/2011/03/letter-scott-walker-wisconsin-teacher
Here’s an open letter from one high school social studies teacher, Eric Brehm of Endeavor, Wisconsin, to Gov. Scott Walker, asking about the impacts of his “budget repair bill
“If I keep going at my current pace, I will work 2,720 hours this school year, 136% to 156% as much as your average hourly worker.”
“By contrast, I make about $38,000 per year.”
“As an educator, I understand how difficult it can be to get young people interested in politics. You have managed to do this in the space of one week.”
http://tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/UBEN-8EDJYS?OpenDocument
“Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.”
http://teacherportal.com/salary/Wisconsin-teacher-salary
Wisconsin Teacher’s Salary Statistics and Benefits
Wisconsin teachers have a starting salary of $25,222
Wisconsin teachers have an average salary of $46,390
The 10 year growth in salary is 21.5%
Budget Fight: What Public Employees Really Cost
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2055204,00.html
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 15, 2011
at 8:06 AM
Yes, NOP. Everybody eats.
I wasn’t telling you what I thought should happen to agricultural subsidies but what I think will happen.
Education
Manufacturing
Technology
Medical
Communications and infrastructure
During the health care bill debate, President Obama said “elections have consequences” and “we won.” The same applies to Wisconsin. Democrats tried to negate the election. They set a bad precedent, and they should be punished so others will think twice before repeating their behavior. After they serve a week or so of penance, the Democrats should be allowed to vote again. Maybe fines should have been imposed instead of taking their right to vote. I don’t know.
What happens if Republicans and Democrats play this game whenever the opposite party proposes legislation they don’t like?
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By: James on March 15, 2011
at 7:02 AM
“Judith I thought of your post when I read this poll. Notice what income level supports Obama the most. ”
Can you help me out with a couple of things? Firstly, the numbers I see have all income levels within statistical dead heat, except for “over $100K” which suddenly jumps to about 2:1. Think about it a minute…how is that possible? Roughly equal and then 2:1…hmmm. Basic calculus says discontinuous functions are not possible, which is to say a smooth curve, then a vertical jump. What’s wrong with this picture?
Secondly, I see they have numbers for “favorable” and “unfavorable” for those listed as “refused to answer.” Help me out here…how does that work? They read their minds? hmmm again…I’m sure the Daily Kos is perfectly fair and unbiased, so I must just be reading the numbers wrong somehow. Can you straighten me out? Thanks.
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By: PFesser on March 15, 2011
at 6:01 AM
lori wrote:
“Then they figured out a way to game the system, and now that the Democrats are back, they aren’t even letting them vote at all. I guess that’s what you call democracy, Wisconsin GOP style.
Or it could be interpreted as the natural consequence of not minding the store: if you are not there, it is likely that someone walks off with your bacon. The opposition is not your friend.
Here in this country, we set rules, write them down as law, and agree to be bound by them. If people run away when the tide is not in their favor, the whole system fails. The proper behavior is you pays your moneys and takes your shot. If you get out-voted, then you can do what the ReBiblicans are doing about Obamacare – try to repeal it.
Having said that, of course two wrongs do not make a right. (However, three do —-Tony Hendra) This “contempt of senate stuff” sounds pretty bogus to me.
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By: PFesser on March 15, 2011
at 5:28 AM
So true:
(by jed lewison)
For weeks on end, all we heard from Republicans was that Democrats had a duty to return to the state and vote on Scott Walker’s union-busting legislation. Then they figured out a way to game the system, and now that the Democrats are back, they aren’t even letting them vote at all. I guess that’s what you call democracy, Wisconsin GOP style.
Fitzgerald: Dem senators won’t be allowed to vote in committees
Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald wrote this afternoon in an email to his caucus that Senate Dems remain in contempt of the Senate and will not be allowed to vote in committees despite returning from their out-of-state boycott of the budget repair bill vote.
“They are free to attend hearings, listen to testimony, debate legislation, introduce amendments, and cast votes to signal their support/opposition, but those votes will not count, and will not be recorded,” wrote Fitzgerald, R-Juneau.
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By: lori on March 15, 2011
at 4:27 AM
Hi Congenial Gang,
Here are some interesting thoughts. These are from a supplemental insert in the March 2011 issue of National Geographic Magazine. We have subscribed to it forever and think it is a fairly reputable publication.
So before we climb up on our high horses and proclaim to the world – again – that we are the collective ego-centric “Leader of the Free World”, “The Greatest Nation that Ever Was”, and are the hottest hot shots that ever graced the planet, maybe we should try to look a little farther than the tip of our own noses. Ponder these numbers. Of course these statistics are not absolutes, only indiciative of trends.
“The earth’s population will reach SEVEN BILLION in 2011. The percentage of people with a decent standard of living is higher than it has ever been. Inequality still abounds: 2% of the population owns 50% of the wealth. But the gap between the worlds’ poorest and richest is now filled by a broad middle-income group that scarcely existed on a global scale 50 years ago. More children live to be adults and fewer adults die of preventable diseases. The birthrate is falling. Yet before the era of explosive population growth ends by 2050, the earth will hold more than NINE BILLION people. The challenge: How to share and sustain the PLANET while lifting even more people into a better life.”
Naturally, these percentages do not add up to 100% since there are so many other Nationalities, Languages and Religions also,
Nationality:
19% are Chinese
17% are Indian
4% are American
Language:
13% speak Mandarin as their first language
5% speak Spanish
4% speak English
Religion:
33% are Christian
21% are Muslim
13% are Hindu
Livelihood:
40% work in Services
38% work in Agriculture
22% work in Industry
Urban vs. Rural:
51% live in Urban Environments
Literacy:
This is surprising, 82%
There are many, many more categories broken down into income level groups from “Low”, “Lower Middle”, “Upper Middle”, and “High”; areas such as technology, access to the inter net, cell phones, etc. If you are interested, you could get your hands on a copy of the magazine. I don’t know if this insert would be anywhere on the inter-net.
Especially in light of the possible nuclear disasters as a result of the Japanese earthquake and tsunami, I feel we are all overdue to re-think priorities. I don’t pretend to have a clue what the ramifications of major nuclear fallouts could be. That technology is way over my head and beyond my comprehension to say nothing of the social and economic factors involved. But instead of following the ancient and time-honored traditions of just taking what we want by force, perhaps we could start sharing the ever-diminishing resources of this planet with each other. The conservative mantra for a long time has been, “A high tide raises all boats.” When the standard of living is elevated WORLDWIDE, we too will benefit.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 15, 2011
at 1:03 AM
James, could you tell me in your own words, why you feel that the agriculture sector is a important component to our national security? Are there other businesses or careers that you also feel are essential to the country’s future?
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By: No one's puppet on March 14, 2011
at 11:27 PM
Hi, No Ones’ Puppet. Thank you. Nice to “see” you again too.
My fearless prediction is farm subsidies, including support of biofuels, will still be with us in the new 2012 farm law. Subsidies will be directed more toward insurance and conservation than production, and they will be cut. However, agricultural leaders will successfully argue that the safety net is important to our national security.
As long as farm prices remain good, much of the production subsidy money will be unspent because a certain price triggers payments. As you know, agriculture is such a polyglot that one sector may prosper while another struggles. Moreover, agricultural fortunes change with the seasons.
I agree with much of what buttons 844 wrote, though our potential crisis concerns public, not private employees. I have a prediction about that too, but you didn’t ask.
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By: James on March 14, 2011
at 4:10 PM
Been awhile…for alot of us in more ways than just one or two ways. Am hoping all is well with M&H…after mentioning problems with spouse and etc, amongst other issues. WOULD INDEED be nice to have an update and even , some wisdomly words and observations/etc.
Those are indeed difficult days for Craig and his family.Know too others have difficulties of similar nature as well here abouts. The supportive effort is sure to be appreciated as it DOES help to sustain in /thru the difficulties.
What an old saw to offer that ‘ain’t it great that a thorn bush DOES proffer up roses’ comes to mind when reading thru the various comments, some contentious, others not so much as the differing opinions roll onward.
There remains far more than JUST two sides to just about all of the various equations and discussions and many remain dug into preferred rut sure THEY/we have THE correct conclusive/etc. Good to always leave a cracked door though.Better still is to allow that there are few absolutes as well and worth noting, on all sides SOME will ALWAYS try for an advantage whether due one or not. Nothing is black or white, just various shadings of grey !! Truly times that try ALL souls !!
In regards to “union” issues….have been a union member–was part of employment and no REAL choice (there was an “option” to decline which did come with a few sticky points that COULD be instigated so was easier to just go along with than fight it. ) Unions have their good points as well as their bad points, just like about all else…not all good but not all bad either and due to unionization we ALL made some great strides(work environment/safty measures/pay scales and pensions and benefits that reach far beyond JUST union members and their work/employment.
Does anyone truly believe they have NOT benefitted in a number of instances due to the negotiated collective bargainings done BY unions across the board ? If so, think need a deeper education and wider knowledge base for sure.
Have there been or ARE there abuses in the union system ? Sure but an actual greater common good has come about due to negotiated collective bargaining as well. How many truly believe they WOULD BE better off without such “safe guards” and merely at the whim of CORPORATIONS elites who would whim whatever to their OWN benefit ? Any truly believe the corporates WOULD BE benevolent and fair and etc,etc,etc without prompting ? Seems , and really do mean SEEMS many do, hence we ‘ve alot of victimhoodnessings going on so sure that unions are the ONLY problem with what is wrong with our worlds….Think we are running out of handbaskets to tote all ….the good, the bad and the outright ugly. What does seem needed is for all to get a grip on actual reality using facts and that remains rather much elusive. It could be worse just as it CAN get worse, even worser. Really comes down to hardrock life for sure with no guarentees for ANYONE so best to TRY to make the best of it and that will involve SINCERE negotiated compromises that will needed to be respected as for the actual GREATER common good for ALL ,not just the few !!!
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By: buttons844 on March 14, 2011
at 3:06 PM
“What nature doesn’t do to us ……..will be done by our fellow man!”
Michigan bill would impose “financial martial law”
Michigan lawmakers are on the verge of approving a bill that would enable the governor to appoint “emergency managers” — officials with unilateral power to make sweeping changes to cities facing financial troubles.
Under the legislation, the Michigan Messenger reports, the governor could declare a “financial emergency” in towns or school districts. He could then appoint a manager to fire local elected officials, break contracts, seize and sell assets, eliminate services – and even eliminate whole cities or school districts without any public input.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20042299-503544.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/14/michigan-set-to-enact-sweeping-financial-martial-law_n_835526.html
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 14, 2011
at 2:57 PM
Judith I thought of your post when I read this poll. Notice what income level supports Obama the most.
http://www.dailykos.com/weeklypolling/2011/3/4
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By: lori on March 14, 2011
at 2:40 PM
Hi James, glad to see you back, while you are reminding us about your prognostications, answer a question for us, what will be the fate of farm subsidies?
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By: No one's puppet on March 14, 2011
at 12:39 PM
Well, another corporatist slips and lets his true feelings out. CNBC anchor Larry Kudlow responded to his co-host’s statement. Co-host – “All in all, the market is taking this in stride.”
“The human toll here looks to be much worse than the economic toll and we can be grateful for that,” Kudlow responded. “And the human toll is a tragedy, we know that.”
Yep, humans are fungible. As long as they’re not embryos. At least his bank account’s ok.
Seen parked in my neighborhood – a beat-to-shit car, pieces falling off, with a NObama sticker displayed prominently in the back window. If I ever see the driver, I’m going to ask him why he’s supporting people whose primary belief about the country is that there’s too much middle class. A middle class who’s got too much of their money. If they get their way, he won’t be able to afford a car at all.
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By: judith on March 14, 2011
at 12:13 PM
Tomorrow, March 15th there will be rallies around the country in support of the workers in WI and all workers/unions. My husband and I will be attending the one near our home. I f you go onto moveon.org or ourfuture.org you will be directed to a rally locator. I belong to a union and my husband does not. We understand that unions are not perfect (what is, including our union of states?) but theyare the only remaining protection that the workers/middle class have against the overwhelming power of the corportations. (see paul krugman) I have no problems with unions giving back in times like the present, but to ignore/deflect the fact the banks/corporations/Koch brothers etc. are the cause of the financial problems experienced by states and individuals is foolish at best. Our economy was strong before the Bush years and the unions were strong during those times as well. (And, there was far greater regulation of the banks/financial sector in those times).
I hope that tomorrow’s rallies will continue to shine light on these facts. Too many people have been ignorant of these developments. Newspapers, TV, most politicians (shout out to Bernie Sanders), being corporate owned, no longer provide the facts and connections that we need to be informed. Most information provided by these quarters have corporate interests at heart. Not the interests of ‘the peole’. The internet, thank god, still provides us with blogs like M&H, Daily Kos, Huff Post, Crooks and Liars, Daily Dish etc. that provide facts about the players that control most of our lives.
Also, the “I’ve got mine” mentality among many of us is all too prevalent. To my ongoing amazement it’s often found in religious right arenas masquerading as ‘big government’ – unless it’s about women’s rights. Then all bets are off.
Yikes, this is a rant and I for that I apologize. Willful ignorance makes me nuts!
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By: roz on March 14, 2011
at 11:19 AM
Hi Craig. I can’t say anything more or better than what’s already been said, but I’m sorry the news wasn’t more encouraging. I am hoping for the best possible outcome and as much happiness as is possible with the time you have left together, whether it’s a year or five or ten or more. 🙂
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By: delurkergurl on March 14, 2011
at 9:48 AM
This is for you PFessor: “I TOLD YOU SO!!!”
The animosity of the other side was so thick we are lucky no one smuggled fire arms into the court room. Reporters were interesting. Though they were only doing their jobs, they tried every trick possible to get us to talk when we were under court order to shut up.
I don’t know if the figures you posted are true or not, but I suspect they are. I ranted about this problem over a year ago. Police and Fire fighter contracts with binding benefits nearly took Omaha into bankruptcy, and the mayor barely survived a recall election.
We discussed it at our regular county-wide political brunch on Saturday. The government workers’ unions hold a unique position because although we pay their salaries, our representatives negotiate. It has been profitable for both sides. Unions demand what they can get away with, which is their job. Government negotiators give them what they can afford, but since it is not their money, they can be over generous. Often pay raises are deferred in the form of benefits, because they are easier to justify and are less painful to the tax payers.
The Wisconsin and other governments withhold union dues which then go to the unions. It is relatively painless for the workers because they never see the money. In return, unions donate money and workers to campaigns of politicians who have helped them. When contracts expire, they negotiate even more generous terms. Republicans, Democrats, and Unions know the system will change if unions are forced to collect dues every month or whenever they must be paid.
That, in my opinion is the main issue, the status quo. Unions and some Democrats are fighting for their economic and political lives, and I believe that explains their desperation and anger. Protesters have issued death threats, manhandled observers and Republican politicians. Democrats and the liberal press have rallied to the cause as they ignore what would have been a leading story if Tea Party protesters had committed those acts.
In the beginning, I believe several of the unions offered to make financial concessions. What they refused to do was to give up something even more important than weakening parts of the collective bargaining process. Collecting dues without government help was non- negotiable. I believe the outgoing chair of the NEA said the union’s power is more important than good schools etc. because teachers owe their salaries and benefits to the union.
The new Iowa House has passed a law requiring government workers to pay at least $100.00 per month to their health care, because Iowa needs the money. The Democratic Senate says it is part of a national campaign to bust unions. The system will change or state and local governments will run out of money.
Those teachers who lied about being sick to be there were stealing money from the state. My wife teaches, and she gets five days of personal leave per year. If she needs more time, she can get time off without pay.
I like that song, Cynthia. If you want more proof we haven’t changed in fifty years, listen to Eve of Destruction by Barry Mcguire.
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By: James on March 14, 2011
at 9:26 AM
Craig, Val is right. Nothing is set in stone.
Remember, my doctor told me to settle my affairs in the winter of 1991. An e- friend had six months to live after doctors told her she had breast cancer. That was six years ago. True, cancer spread to her thyroid after the all clear, but she beat it too.
On the other hand, a neighbor was diagnosed with cancer last summer. He died before Christmas. The point is nobody knows. Educated guesses are based on statistics. Look at the bell curve. It is filled with outliers.
Even if Val has only eighteen months, that is longer than some of us on the forum have. I’m betting on her to beat the odds.
Maybe you could save Lori’s and NOP’s posts to read in your dark days.
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By: James on March 14, 2011
at 8:35 AM
Craig,
I am very sorry to hear the bad news about the cancer. Val sounds like a real fighter, that is good, she can beat this thing. One little word of advice…. Don’t let the cancer take over your world, put it in it’s place and remember to see Val when you look at her, not the cancer. As Poolman said, take each day, one at a time and live it to the fullest.
I will keep you and Val in my thoughts and prayers.
Best wishes
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By: Mikat on March 14, 2011
at 8:15 AM
Kingston Trio!! A Beach. A Fire. A Beer. And Singing Songs.
Young, Naïve, Held the World by the Tail. Oh my.
Perhaps the names, locations and events have changed a bit but have we in 50 years?
Rioting in Africa
They’re rioting in Africa. They’re starving in Spain.
There’s hurricanes in Florida, and Texas needs rain.
The whole world is festering with unhappy souls.
The French hate the Germans, the Germans hate the Poles.
Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch.
And I don’t like anybody very much!
But we can be tranquil and thankful and proud,
For man’s been endowed with a mushroom-shaped cloud.
And we know for certain that some lovely day,
Someone will set the spark off… and we will all be blown away.
They’re rioting in Africa. There’s strife in Iran.
What nature doesn’t do to us… will be done by our fellow man.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 14, 2011
at 7:46 AM
Pfisser,
“disclaimer: I don’t know if a single word of it is true, but if so, very very interesting stuff…”
How much do you want us to believe? If someone believes this “creative math” I have a bridge to sell them and a stunning designer jacket to wear to the closing.
Letter Wisconsin Teacher Wrote to Scott Walker
http://motherjones.com/contributor/2011/03/letter-scott-walker-wisconsin-teacher
“Via one of our Tumblr chums, Positively Persistent Teach, here’s an open letter from one high school social studies teacher, Eric Brehm of Endeavor, Wisconsin, to Gov. Scott Walker, asking about the impacts of his “budget repair bill.” It’s lengthy and worth reading—and passing on—in its entirety. You can also read up on Brehm at his blog, Bang the Bucket. In his own words:”
“If I keep going at my current pace, I will work 2,720 hours this school year, 136% to 156% as much as your average hourly worker.”
“By contrast, I make about $38,000 per year.”
If you wished to trim $30 million off of the budget that works out to about $6.91 per Wisconsin taxpayer. So I must ask: Is it fair that you ask $3000 of me, but you fail to ask $6.91 of everyone?
“As an educator, I understand how difficult it can be to get young people interested in politics. You have managed to do this in the space of one week.”
http://tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/UBEN-8EDJYS?OpenDocument
Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.”
http://teacherportal.com/salary/Wisconsin-teacher-salary
Wisconsin Teacher’s Salary Statistics and Benefits
Wisconsin teachers have a starting salary of $25,222
Wisconsin teachers have an average salary of $46,390
The 10 year growth in salary is 21.5%
http://www.teacher-world.com/statespages/Wisconsin.html
Average Beginning Teacher Salary: $31,753
Average Teacher Salary: $47,602
Average Administrator Salary: $77,740
Elementary School Principals: $82,414
Middle School Principals: $87,866
High School Principals: $92,965
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 14, 2011
at 7:17 AM
I’m sorry your news wasn’t the greatest Craig. But I know Val can give this beast a run for it’s money. If anyone can do it Val can!I’m sure of it. I’ll be looking forward to hearing NED in your next report! xo
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By: lori on March 14, 2011
at 5:08 AM
PFesser
I’ll be calling you soon in a day or two after the next scan..
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By: Craig on March 13, 2011
at 10:08 PM
With all the sad news here of late, I thought I’d forward medical news of note, sent to me by a doctor friend:
All drugs have two names, a trade name and generic name.
For example, the trade name is Tylenol and its generic name is Acetaminophen.. Aleve is also called Naproxen. Amoxil is also calle Amoxicillin and Advil is also called Ibuprofen.
The FDA has been looking for a generic name for Viagra.
After careful consideration by a team of government experts, it recently announced that it has settled on the generic name of Mycoxafloppin.
Also considered were Mycoxafailin, Mydixadrupin, Mydixarizin, Dixafix, and of course, Ibepokin.
Pfizer Corp. Announced today that Viagra will soon be available in liquid form, and will be marketed by Pepsi Cola as a power beverage suitable for use as a mixer.. It will now be possible for a man to literally pour himself a stiff one.
Obviously we can no longer call this a soft drink, and it gives new meaning to the names of ‘cocktails’, ‘highballs’ and just a good old-fashioned ‘stiff drink’.
Pepsi will market the new concoction by the name of: MOUNT & DO.
*****************
Thought for the day: There is more money being spent on breast implants and Viagra today than on Alzheimer’s research.
This means that by 2020, there should be a large elderly population with perky boobs and huge erections and absolutely no recollection of what to do with them.
From Your Source for all Medical News. You’re welcome…
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By: PFesser on March 13, 2011
at 9:50 PM
Jean, I think we are going to be okay, even the blasphemers, as I recall Briton used to hang pickpocketers. Times change, laws evolve.
Craig, glad to hear Val has the spirit, if I recall your words correctly, the doctor said, at the bare minimum Val has eighteen months. That means she could have a lot more than that, if she works under the assumption that she has plenty of time left, I ‘m sure she will.
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By: No one's puppet on March 13, 2011
at 9:44 PM
James –
“It has been a long few months of vituperative law- suits and counter suits reported in at least five news papers. Now, we have won. ”
Congratulations on your legal triumph! Say I Told You So. It gets me excited.
Along that line, did you know Greta Van Susteren and her husband/law partner were the subjects of serious legal disciplinary proceedings in WV because of “ambulance chasing” in 1996? Believe me, in a state full of ambulance chasers, that is a very high standard to meet. They then later slipped under the wire because of a rule that “ambulance chasing” only applied to those regularly practicing law in WV. Get outta here! I’m so glad to be in Mr. Jefferson’s home; the best way to see WV is in the rear view mirror.
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By: PFesser on March 13, 2011
at 9:37 PM
Interesting data sent to me today by a right-winger friend. disclaimer: I don’t know if a single word of it is true, but if so, very very interesting stuff…
2010 Wisconsin Public Worker Wages
No wonder the unions don’t want to give up their power. . . .
ATTACHED: This is the official excel DPI database of Wisconsin teachers wages by school district. Look up your own district !!!
AVERAGE WAGE AND BENEFITS (remember this is for about 9 months of work) includes a computation for retirement benefits, health and life insurance, sick day pay accrual, vacation days, personal holidays.
TEACHERS:
Milwaukee $86,297
Elmbrook $91,065
Germantown $83,818
Hartland Arrwhd $90,285 (highest teacher was $122,952-lowest was $64,942)
Men Falls $81,099
West Bend $82,153
Waukesha $92,902
Sussex $82,956
Mequon $95,297
Kettle Mor $87,676
Muskego $91,341
STAFF:
Arrowhead – Bus Mng – Kopecky – $169,525
Arrowhead – Principal – Wieczorek – $152,519
Grmtwn – Asst Princ – Dave Towers – $123,222
Elmbrk – Burliegh Elemetary – Principal Zahn- $142,315 (for a primary school!!)
Madison – Asst Principal – McGrath – $127,835
UNIVERSITY of WISCONSIN STAFF (2009) (salary alone):
Michael Knetter – Prof of Bus – $327,828
Carolyn Martin – Chancellor Mad- $437,000
Hector Deluca – Prof of Nutritional Science – $254,877 (really??)
(source:Madison.com -as the UW removed salaries from being posted online in 2007- why if they are so low?)
How about some other “public servant job” ??? What do they make?
Madison Garbage men (2009) (salary only):
· Garbageman, Mr. Nelson earned $159,258 in 2009, including $109,892 in overtime and other pay.
· Garbageman, Greg Tatman, who earned $125,598
· 7 Madison garbage men made over $100,000
· 30 Madison garbage men made over $70,000
MILWAUKEE CITY BUS DRIVERS (salary only):
136 Drivers made more than $70,000
54 Drivers made more than $80,000
18 Drivers made more than $90,000
8 Drivers made more than $100,000
Top Driver made $117,000
(Source WTMJ)
(The average private bus driver makes $9-13 an hour (about 20,000 year) with no pension, or healthcare.)
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By: PFesser on March 13, 2011
at 9:27 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
Donna, I am worried. I am really worried! If I remember correctly, our Law is based primarily on British Common Law and Precedents.
I just read about Britain’s Blasphemy Act of 1698. As a lawyer, you must be familiar with it. It stipulated that for denying the Holy Trinity, a person could be prevented from holding public office and receiving some inheritances. Up until 1925, (that’s only four years before I was born!!!), Blasphemy charges were brought against Britons not only for expressing contempt for God and the Scriptures – for which fines, imprisonment and even corporal punishment were enforced – but also for insulting high-ranking government officials. The last prison sentence for Blasphemy was handed down to a “Speaker’s Corner” orator in 1921. These were perfectly legal convictions for Blasphemy. Is that law still on the books?
Today there are some extreme right wing conservatives who are heck bent (not h*ll bent!) on returning to the ‘Good Ole Days’; you know, before slavery was abolished, women’s suffrage, unions and the like, by any means possible, fair or foul.
Many of us here on the porch have committed grave sins of Blasphemy! I am one of them and so afraid. If any of us are busted, Donna, will you bail us outta jail and defend us, all the way up to the Supreme Court if necessary?
Thank you so much.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 13, 2011
at 9:24 PM
Note to Poolman ..Thanks for your input and advice.
I appreciate it.
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By: Craig on March 13, 2011
at 8:30 PM
Note to all.
If you see a piece of a mans ass beside the road it is mine.
My wife saw my statement..and took great umbrage with what she says
is not going to happen. She said “you have me boxed and buried.”
“But I’m not going any time soon.” “what the doctor said was statistics and I can beat the statistics.”
Well that was my ass being handed to me by my wife. Her glass is and always will be half full… if not full.
Now to the happy place. She gets her new sonogram tomorrow..and first Chemo treatment Tuesday. I guess its the start of a whole new life style.
NOP..
The Avastin will be a fall back drug of choice with a another drug called
Invitor. So we will wait six weeks and see where we are and hopefully the current treatment will start putting the nodes in remission and whatever is in her back as well. Thanks for all your thoughts and prayers.
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By: Craig on March 13, 2011
at 8:24 PM
Craig: F*ck. I have no other words that quite capture how awful I’m feeling for you and Val.
Wait. I do have this. (I hope it doesn’t come off sounding glib. I don’t mean it that way. This is something a dear friend said to me when it became apparent that breast cancer was going to kill his beloved wife [also a dear friend])….
“We’re grateful to know how much time we have left. Not many people get that gift.”
My jaw dropped. I had never thought of it that way.
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By: Tine on March 13, 2011
at 4:33 PM
Dear Helen
I really enjoy reading your blog. I hope that you and your family are ok, and that you yourself are still alive as it has been a while since your last (and very brilliant) blog. I hope that I am as smart as you when I get your age (or before). I wish you all the best.
yours sincerely
(ms) Benét
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By: Benét hermind on March 13, 2011
at 2:53 PM
Craig, I’m sorry about the news. As others wrote, nothing is set in stone. I have a present for you. It is all I can do. Google “You’re Not Alone” by Downhere which I assume is on YouTube.
It has been a long few months of vituperative law- suits and counter suits reported in at least five news papers. Now, we have won. The district attorney will supervise terms of the ruling before the end of the month. Early on, I made a list of predictions on this forum, and, I enraged people when I scornfully wrote “I told you so!” as they came true. I’d like to do the same to our litigant opponents, but I will probably meet them with a smile and “hi”, because we won.
Hi, Tammyharper. Keep up the good work.
Christina Hendricks of Mad Men stars in a science fiction video, “The Ghost inside” by Broken Bells which is also on youtube. It tells a nice story which is an allegory of a woman trapped in a bad relationship. I think it could also apply to people and their ideologies.
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By: James on March 13, 2011
at 1:31 PM
A rather amazing bit of statistics on the quake in Japan.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/12/japan.earthquake.tsunami.earth/index.html?hpt=T1
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By: tammyharper on March 12, 2011
at 11:16 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
We saw our Internist Thursday for our routine checkups. He has been our primary care doctor for a long time. He has impeccable credentials. He has such a full roster of patients he hasn’t been taking any new ones in quite some time. We know, because we have recommended some friends to him.
I think this is pretty interesting. Once a year the local newspaper puts out an extensive survey on the goods and services on the island and asks the people to rate them. This runs the gamut from restaurants to fast food joints to car dealerships to professional people of all stripes- doctors, lawyers, CPAs, you name it. The results were recently published.
Our doctor was rated as a doctor, “First Place!” “Best on the Island”! His partner was Second. (We cudda told them that.) There was a nice plaque on the wall in his waiting room to that effect.
Now here is where it really gets interesting. They also had a prominent sign saying they no longer would accept such-and-so insurance carriers and listed them! One was Humana. The sign also listed alternate insurance carriers they recommend.
Over the years, without making a big deal out of it, our doctor has shown his disgust with the way the insurance and pharmaceutical companies have been giving both the patients and the doctors their greedy Mickey-Mouse-run-arounds. Looks like some medical professionals are fed up! When one of our doctor’s caliber and reputation speaks out like this, it may have some positive repercussions – for patients anyway. Since Obamacare has gone into effect and patients can no longer be denied claims for pre-existing conditions, they are free to go to insurance carriers who give better service. Isn’t that Capltalism and the Free Enterprise System at it’s best? So what can the conservatives whine about that.
I think this is a big step in the right direction, don’t you?
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 12, 2011
at 8:44 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
Craig, I’m so sorry to hear of Val’s grim prognosis. That said…….there are so very many variables. Example, we had a dear friend given three years with cancer. He lived for fifteen and died from something else! So I’m a little leery of time lines. Science likes to think it knows everything and has all the answers wrapped up in little bundles on the shelf. There are such things as spontaneous remissions and no one knows why.
None of us knows what even tomorrow brings. I could get hit by a Kauai bus. But they are kinda small and lumber along slowly. I think I’m still nimble enough to hobble out of the way. I hope you will both concentrate on the LIFE you have together and enjoy every moment. You have plenty of livin’ to do!
I send you my best Aloha!
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 12, 2011
at 8:19 PM
Craig –
There is a worldwide race going on: humans vs. cancer, and the cancer cannot win – not in the long term. Medicos now are all linked via the ‘net, and any research anywhere on the planet showing benefit for your wife will be known to all other researchers within days – sometimes hours.
The answer is out there. It will come. Will it come in time? Nobody knows. But hope is not gone until life is gone and from where I sit, I believe there is cause for great hope. (Don’t make me quote Yogi Berra about the fat lady!) -grin- As always, you have my phone #; call any time you feel the need.
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By: PFesser on March 12, 2011
at 7:31 PM
Shame on you Craig, getting a fourteen year old girl all liquored up, all in the name of love! LOL
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By: No one's puppet on March 12, 2011
at 6:03 PM
Craig, just know God prefers to work from impossible circumstances. He is king of the impossible. Never give up. Time for more of the roses, dinners, wine and candlelight. I’ll keep lifting her to the Father. The race isn’t over yet.
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By: poolman on March 12, 2011
at 4:53 PM
Yea..I know…NOP and all..
My pharma rep across street who use to sell cancer drugs came over and gave me the speech about new things and products are happening every day..Guess I just feel like that BP guy…I just wish we had our life back…
I’m suppose to be her rock..and I need to get it together and I guess its just a very raw nerve right now. We have been going to church more..in fact it started back in the fall before any of this cancer stuff transpired. I just prey and I know she is leaning on “HIM” more. She’s a fighter. I knew that when I married her..it took me ten years to snare her..Lots of roses, dinners, wine and candlelight. From age 14-to 24 I went after her. I can’t give up on her now. Thank you all for being my listening post and my heart out to Mageen in Old Virginny as well.
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By: Craig on March 12, 2011
at 4:31 PM
Damn, Craig. That stinks. I am truly sorry.
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By: judith on March 12, 2011
at 4:27 PM
Craig, eighteen months can be at lot or it can be nothing, I suppose, depending on one’s mood and perseverance. The difference between Val and the rest of us is she knows the what and can approximate the when, but a lot of living and building of good memories can happen in the meantime. Remember we are here for you as a diversion whenever you need one, my instincts scream, tell him something encouraging, but I don’t want to get all maudlin or be a phony. I am very sorry the news wasn’t better.
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By: No one's puppet on March 12, 2011
at 1:52 PM
Aw, Craig, I’m so sorry the news is not what we all wanted to hear. Hang in there. Take each day at a time. If that’s too much to fathom, then break the day down into the next fifteen minutes, if you have to, and just get through those few minutes at a time.
Maybe the research will throw something really useful her way that will give Val more time, more hope, more progress, and some goodness. Surround her and yourself with friends and loved ones, and keep moving forward, one step at a time.
My heart aches for Val and you today.
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By: elsie09 on March 12, 2011
at 1:27 PM
Craig-
You both will win if every moment you have together is a celebration of your love and time together.
It sounds stupid and touchy-feely but it is true . Very best wishes to you both.
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By: alaskapi on March 12, 2011
at 1:20 PM
Met with Dr. O from 5pm and walked out at 7pm.
In some ways shortest two hours but exhausted after coming out and heading to hotel.
Not good news from Dr. O
Val has incurable cancer. She will be on some sort of chemo from now on.
She starts Tuesday in Lubbock. Val’s only hope is that the genome study currently being conducted on Val’s DNA tissue will take 4- 5 more months to reveal what exactly her cancer would best react to.
When I asked about time..She looked down and then started about the statistics and Val’s current state of good health and exercise regimen…but Dr. O said she certainly has 18 months, but Dr.O Would not give any guarantees. All people react differently and she will try and get Val on any clinical study around the country that may benefit her. This cancer has Metz to the spine as well as the lymph nodes.
Base line Val has 18 months at least out to who knows, 3 years..6 years? Maybe there will be new developments and regimens in the mean time.
The body can only take so much chemo so I’m told. Dr. O also has Val scheduled for another base line pet scan on Monday to compare past and future results from chemo treatments.
Thus we know she will die from cancer…it’s just when, depending on her fight , strength and how long her body will let her receive chemo.
I’m drained and the mood around the house has certainly been less than jovial.
Val is a fighter and is trying to stay up..but we both look at each other and wonder..hug..and then retreat to our lil corners of the world… And I’m suppose to put my “happy face” on and say we will win this.
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By: Craig on March 12, 2011
at 1:02 PM
PFesser,
Regarding the link in your post from 7:54 am and in honor of Captain Jean-luc Picard, “Make it so!”
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By: poolman on March 12, 2011
at 9:19 AM
HRH Sofia –
Thank you SO much for the I Have Sex video. I guess I am not so far behind the times; I even recognized the music: “Handlebars” My two teenage sons love that song. It has quite a message if you listen to the words.
Damn the ReBiblican right. Damn them. When are they going to get their noses out of other people’s crotches and take care of the country’s business?
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By: PFesser on March 12, 2011
at 8:28 AM
“Poolman a 3 foot tsunami wave could be 100s of feet from top to bottom. This was no wave to be surfing in buddy. I think you might be confuzzling the two.”
No, no, no, no. It doesn’t work like that. The wave’s amplitude is three feet, period, peak to trough. Its wavelength (the distance between peaks (or troughs)) may be several miles; that is why, even though it may travel several hundred miles per hour, boats on the ocean may not be even aware of it as it passes under them, slowly lifting them three feet and letting them back down.
When it gets to shore, that is a different matter. As the water reaches the shallows, the wavelength begins to shorten and the water begins to “pile up,” converting a long shallow wave to a short high one.
It is SOP for boats to sail offshore at first notice of a tsunami. Surfing? No. too close to shore, and they don’t know how high the wave will be for sure at any given shoreline. 100 feet deep? No.
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By: PFesser on March 12, 2011
at 8:06 AM
Hi all –
Check this out: I think it will especially appeal to you, Poolman, Craig, James, Noah, and others with a Libertarian bent.
Click to access The_Honorable_Legislator’s_Creed.pdf
I found this on a Website dedicated to electrical systems for airplanes. I have talked to this guy; he is really something. His name is Bob Nuckolls and has worked as an electrical engineer in the aircraft industry for Boeing and several others. I wired my homebuilt airplane according to some of his designs and it performed flawlessly.
I see he has other things on his mind, too. He’s a very impressive guy.
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By: PFesser on March 12, 2011
at 7:54 AM
Auntie Jean- so glad Hawaii was mostly spared and people were so ready!
Sending best wishes!
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By: alaskapi on March 11, 2011
at 8:26 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
Cynthia, I am in awe of your talent for accurately expressing in symbols what primates are not capable of understanding in the written word. Since humans first scrawled depictions on the walls of their caves, they have been able to convincingly describe their thoughts and feelings. I applaud you for giving the ahem, other side of the POV that some so ardent advocate for here at M&H’s.
No need for apologies. I for one look forward to more of your Keyboard Kreations! You have my unqulified support.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 11, 2011
at 5:20 PM
Tammy, never thought I’d say this, but thanks for the video. Frightening!
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By: No one's puppet on March 11, 2011
at 3:41 PM
Cynthia, offended? Hardly!
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By: No one's puppet on March 11, 2011
at 3:25 PM
Cynthia.
No need to apologize. Unfortunately you will now be seen as using the standard set by the ape.
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By: jsri on March 11, 2011
at 2:54 PM
Gee, Cynthia…
I haven’t been offended by anything YOU said. Besides, sometimes a gal has to do what a gal has to do. For example, I have a really good pair of nippers I could maybe loan ya, but ya just can’t get through online with them like you’d want to, so words have to do.
And, please, keep up the good work.
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By: elsie09 on March 11, 2011
at 2:28 PM
Everyone,
I most respectfully submit my sincere apology to Helen and Margaret and to all I may have offended by my display of rude, crude, disrespectful, and immature behavior and lack of self control.
And also to my mother who raised me to a proper respectful woman and taught me better then to stoop to this level of behavior.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 11, 2011
at 2:15 PM
A lesson in being truly objective no matter what side of the isle your on. A disturbing event in Michigan.
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By: tammyharper on March 11, 2011
at 2:02 PM
an.800lbgorilla,
Cynthia opined on February 20, 2011 @ 5:17 pm
“I will admit I am no match for people like you.”
an800lbgorilla opined on February 22, 2011 @ 4:17am
“I’m glad we clarified that.”
Are you really, really sure of that?
……………………/´¯/)
…………………,/¯../
………………../…./
…………../´¯/’…’/´¯¯`•¸
………../’/…/…./……./¨¯\
………(‘(…´…´…. ¯~/’…’)
……….\……………..’…../
………..\………. _.•´
………….\…………..(
……………\………….\
DO NOT under estimate me!
In case you’re asking – number of asshat ex-husbands.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 11, 2011
at 1:55 PM
Morning Congenial Gang,
Thanks for your concerns about us. We are all grateful out here that the tsunami turned out to be a non-event. We get tsunami warnings all the time since we are out in the middle of the Pacific Rim and can get them from Alaska, to Chili, to Indonesia, to Japan as well as all the islands in between.
We got the Civil Defense ro-bo call as we were hearing the sirens go off regularly last night. We are up high on a cliff so we knew we were safe. Civil Defense out here is a well oiled machine and quite efficient. They opened and announced where evacuation centers are all over all the islands to get people to higher ground. The centers are not shelters – no food or sleeping accommodations. They are only set up for the short term duration of the tsunami.
Of course, the Red Cross was right in there – – – on TV rattling their tin cups for donations. (I don’t hold the Red Cross in very high esteem since our experiences with them during Hurricane Iniki in 1991.)
BTW, aren’t Civil Defense, and those geophysical, earthquake people part of that big, bad g’ment that keeps throwing us taxpayers money away on useless programs?
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 11, 2011
at 1:53 PM
lori, I know plenty along the beach will be affected. But Auntie Jean is on higher ground, as I recall. A lot of the surfers do like to follow the storms. 20 and 30 foot waves are not too uncommon in winter on some of the beaches. But you’re right, it isn’t like a tidal wave. The ocean is a very powerful force that puts us wimpy humans to shame, making us respect mother nature and realizing how little control we have over these forces. I’m happy I’m landlocked at times like this.
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By: poolman on March 11, 2011
at 11:54 AM
Poolman a 3 foot tsunami wave could be 100s of feet from top to bottom. This was no wave to be surfing in buddy. I think you might be confuzzling the two.
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By: lori on March 11, 2011
at 11:44 AM
Poolman, I didn’t watch it, but when I saw it on a blog discussing abortion, I had a Kathy Griffin moment. I can’t be the only one with a warped sense of humor can I?
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By: No one's puppet on March 11, 2011
at 11:33 AM
I heard 3 foot waves in Kaua’i. That isn’t anything to get exciting about. I don’t even think the surfers would get excited over that. My heart goes out to those in Japan, though. These are exciting times, for sure.
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By: poolman on March 11, 2011
at 11:20 AM
Nope NOP didn’t notice.. I have great scroll skills..
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By: lori on March 11, 2011
at 11:19 AM
Gorilla,
Rand Paul is totally right in his rant in that video. I have felt the same frustration over that type of government intervention in our life choices for decades. Thanks for posting it. It also speaks well into the topic of this thread.
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By: poolman on March 11, 2011
at 11:15 AM
NOP, I ignored all of it. Kudos to you for caring.
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By: elsie09 on March 11, 2011
at 11:13 AM
I see the big gorilla posted a video of Rand Paul, anyone besides me note the irony? I just look at him and think….
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By: No one's puppet on March 11, 2011
at 11:12 AM
Auntie Jean- you are in my thoughts. Just now hearing from a sibling on far north coast of CA where waves are expected to hit 8 ft and so much damage was done after AK Good Friday quake in 64…
Please let us hear from you too
🙂
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By: alaskapi on March 11, 2011
at 10:04 AM
Helen and Margaret, in case you missed seeing this add. Makes me really proud of some of our “youts.” Can you imagine, Planned Parenthood cost the government 75 million dollars. Sound like a lot until you hear that oil subsidies cost us taxpayers
2.5 BILLION.
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By: HRH sofia EQ on March 11, 2011
at 9:47 AM
Cynthia, I saw that yesterday and wanted to post it, too. I’m so glad you did.
It’s an awful commentary on the priorities of our nation that we can waste any of our time looking at Charlie Sheen’s bad choices and totally forget or ignore the ultimate sacrifices on our American men and women dying overseas in the miserable war in Afghanistan.
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By: elsie09 on March 11, 2011
at 9:21 AM
Sending out prayers to Auntie Jean and everyone else in Hawaii. Please be safe and let us know that you are!
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By: Tine on March 11, 2011
at 7:20 AM
Hi Auntie Jean, Please be sure to let us all know that you are ok out in HI. Looks like it might be really bad.
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By: hillsmom on March 11, 2011
at 7:13 AM
Thanks for the clarification, Elsie. Good info. And Cynthia, thanks for the link.
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By: delurkergurl on March 11, 2011
at 5:17 AM
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By: an800lbgorilla on March 11, 2011
at 4:55 AM
Please check this out…..Thank You
Viral post pits coverage of Sheen, fallen soldiers
By Wayne Drash, CNN
“It started with a Facebook status update. Upset at the media’s coverage of Charlie Sheen, someone took up for American soldiers dying in Afghanistan.”
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 10, 2011
at 10:13 PM
Oops…
I found the actual NASA website that disputes and/or clarifies some of the inventions attributed to NASA a bit better at http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinfaq.htm
You’ve got plenty to read if you go there or just use Google with the subject of NASA inventions.
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By: elsie09 on March 10, 2011
at 10:11 PM
Elsie:
Thanks for adding specifics to my general assessment. That sort of innovation has slid into the background as our “biggest and best brains” now shuffle papers and make fortunes at the expense of the rest of us.
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By: jsri on March 10, 2011
at 9:26 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
jsri and elsie, brilliant comments, back to back, today! Thanks for sharing positive insights.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 10, 2011
at 9:21 PM
Thanks for sharing that, Elsie. I didn’t know that!
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By: delurkergurl on March 10, 2011
at 6:21 PM
Hey, jsri.
NASA’s development of thousands of space industry products have directly impacted our lives. In fact, in its 50+ years, NASA has filed more than 6300 patents. So, as the GOP slashes funding everywhere it can and “cuts taxes to balance the budget”, it might be good to take a moment and reflect on a few of the inventions or improvements that we have today that evolved from NASA’s efforts:
Here are the top 15 space spin-offs:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/5893387/Apollo-11-moon-landing-top-15-Nasa-inventions.html
1. CAT scanner: this cancer-detecting technology was first used to find imperfections in space components.
2. Computer microchip: modern microchips descend from integrated circuits used in the Apollo Guidance Computer.
3. Cordless tools: power drills and vacuum cleaners use technology designed to drill for moon samples.
4. Ear thermometer: a camera-like lens that detects infrared energy we feel as heat was originally used to monitor the birth of stars.
5. Freeze-dried food: this reduces food weight and increases shelf life without sacrificing nutritional value.
6. Insulation: home insulation uses reflective material that protects spacecraft from radiation.
7. Invisible braces: teeth-straightening is less embarrassing thanks to transparent ceramic brace brackets made from spacecraft materials.
8. Joystick: this computer gaming device was first used on the Apollo Lunar Rover.
9. Memory foam: created for aircraft seats to soften landing, this foam, which returns to its original shape, is found in mattresses and shock absorbing helmets.
10. Satellite television: technology used to fix errors in spacecraft signals helps reduce scrambled pictures and sound in satellite television signals.
11. Scratch resistant lenses: astronaut helmet visor coating makes our spectacles ten times more scratch resistant.
12. Shoe insoles: athletic shoe companies adapted space boot designs to lessen impact by adding spring and ventilation.
13. Smoke detector: Nasa invented the first adjustable smoke detector with sensitivity levels to prevent false alarms.
14. Swimsuit: Nasa used the same principles that reduce drag in space to help create the world’s fastest swimsuit for Speedo, rejected by some professionals for giving an unfair advantage.
15. Water filter: domestic versions borrow a technique Nasa pioneered to kill bacteria in water taken into space.
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By: elsie09 on March 10, 2011
at 4:57 PM
Pfesser
The fundamental building block is still education, your favorite whipping post, the single element you keep pointing out as being inferior. But the real question you don’t seem to address is “How have we gotten into that position?”
Meanwhile, who will design, develop and produce these high value products you have fixated upon? In order to do so, companies must invest in R&D. Without that investment, no company is going anywhere because it is the R&D area that companies will dump first while trying to make their bottom line presentable.
And where will they sell these high value products? I suppose Central Africa might be a great prospect given their excessive wage levels. But beyond that where do we go?
And where is the support for Basic Research? During the fifties and sixties, the feds put a lot of money into basic research. The end result was a flowering of companies willing to put these results to practical use. Just think of what a step backwards it would be if we didn’t have the Internet, GPS, advances in aviation and automotive technology, and modern medicine with all its new devices and procedures. And where is that sort of government support today? Practically non-existent. It is a fraction of what was available during those headier times.
Yet look at China and India today. They have made a deliberate and concerted effort to support higher education and by the sheer size of their populations they will out reproduce and out produce us. And there is little we can do about it. China today is producing engineers in prodigious numbers and India has our computer services in their back pocket.
Certainly more unions may not be the the answer to the education problems. But neither is dumping teachers and forcing 60 kids into a classroom, or firing the whole staff and rehiring only a select few. And the constant drumbeat of teacher denigration does wonders for moral and motivation.
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By: jsri on March 10, 2011
at 4:11 PM
PFesser opined:
“You will not ever be on a roll until you are able to acknowledge both sides of an argument and show respect to those who disagree with you.”
jsri responded:
“Your usual pompous arrogance is showing again.
I will show respect when I get it.”
Check. And mate.
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By: PFesser on March 10, 2011
at 3:38 PM
jsri opined:
You said “There is a much larger picture that I don’t believe you are seeing:”
I see the picture very clearly. The problem is globalization.
Every time an international company ships its technology to third world countries, it gets stolen and we get it back in cheaper versions of the original. As long as global reach companies continue to do this we will be at a disadvantage. This cycle will never end until third world workers are at comparable pay scales to those in top tier countries but I don’t see that happening any time soon.”
I believe the picture you don’t see is that you can’t stop it. No matter what.
IMHO the only way to a high standard of living, long term, is to produce high-value products and sell them for a good price. Our people have fallen so low in their education levels that they do not produce high value goods, and it’s just supply and demand – people get better products at a lower price elsewhere. You cannot stop that by unionizing or anything else. Look at Toyota. In the ‘sixties, we used to laugh at the “toy” cars. Now they are more than sixty times the size of GM. Why? They make a high-value, high-quality product.
There are no shortcuts; unions often protect the dead wood; that is just a way to prosper short-term and fail long term. That is what we see now.
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By: PFesser on March 10, 2011
at 3:15 PM
Pfesser
Your usual pompous arrogance is showing again.
I will show respect when I get it.
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By: jsri on March 10, 2011
at 3:11 PM
Thanks PFesser, Now that I better understand what I am dealing with, I am ashamed of myself for allowing myself to get sucked into their hypocrisy. They wonder why old people and union workers would vote for Republicans. Could it possibly be that they are untimely voting for the lesser of 2 evils? As I stated above I would rather vote for a tea party member because at least I know what they stand for, and will continue to stand for it even in the face of bitter opposition. Democrats like in Wisconsin and on this board only hold true to their beliefs as long as it is to their advantage to do so, then flee their ideals and or their state rather than face up to it and fight.
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By: tammyharper on March 10, 2011
at 3:04 PM
jsri opined:
“I’m impressed. You actually understood one. I guess I;m on a roll.”
You are not on a roll. You will not ever be on a roll until you are able to acknowledge both sides of an argument and show respect to those who disagree with you.
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By: PFesser on March 10, 2011
at 3:00 PM
tam –
You’re some girl! Don’t have much time to help out this week, but it appears you don’t need it…
Keep up the good work.
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By: PFesser on March 10, 2011
at 2:52 PM
No self loathing at all. I find this very educational, and humorous, in a train wreck sort of way.
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By: tammyharper on March 10, 2011
at 2:39 PM
tammyharper on March 10, 2011 at 1:24 PM
I’m impressed. You actually understood one. I guess I;m on a roll.
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By: jsri on March 10, 2011
at 2:30 PM
Whirled Peas, your contributions are greatly missed here. It’s really good to see you again.
You might want to take a look at http://chatterclatter.wordpress.com/ where some really interesting folks hang out. It’s a site that is much faster to load, and the conversation is pleasant and often easier to digest.
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By: elsie09 on March 10, 2011
at 2:19 PM
My guess is that Tammy feels just about the same thing that Noah does. It’s just a guess, though.
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By: elsie09 on March 10, 2011
at 1:57 PM
Can you imagine, how much self loathing Tammy feels that she chooses to hang out here, in the company of liberals?
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By: No one's puppet on March 10, 2011
at 1:46 PM
poolman, your thoughtfulness makes me wonder about things, too.
In fact, one of the things I’ve often wondered lately is how many different names are used by the same troll here?
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By: elsie09 on March 10, 2011
at 1:25 PM
jsri ..wonderful post. Probably your most substantive contribution to date. You go.
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By: tammyharper on March 10, 2011
at 1:24 PM
Dear deluded Tammy;
Whine
Whine
Whine
Time to try some
Wine
Wine
Wine
It might help your reading comprehension.
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By: jsri on March 10, 2011
at 1:20 PM
Mother Denied Abortion, Then Had To Watch Baby Die
Nebraska’s new abortion law forced Danielle Deaver to live through ten excruciating days, waiting to give birth to a baby that she and her doctors knew would die minutes later…
The sponsor of the controversial Nebraska statute, Sen. Mike Flood of Norfolk, told the Des Moines Register that the law worked as it was intended in the Deavers’ case.
“Even in these situations where the baby has a terminal condition or there’s not much chance of surviving outside of the womb, my point has been and remains that is still a life.”
This is what happens when the Pro-Torture party is in power.
PEACE ALL ~ Δ
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By: Whirled Peas Δ on March 10, 2011
at 1:10 PM
I think considering the reaction I have struck a cord of truth here. Being as the truth is impossibly hard to argue against it is often a tenancy to attack the messenger or to distract from the subject entirely with attempts at humor. What a fun little social experiment this has been. Thanks loads.
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By: tammyharper on March 10, 2011
at 12:55 PM
“Demockercy” has replaced “Democracy” in America!
Jean, I’m looking into a 3 acre, 4 bedroom, 2 bath ice floe with a hot tub and an ocean view.
Will the last sane person please paddlock the doors when you leave.
elsie09 – I called my “shrink” for a reality check. He determined I was not delusional. Suggested it might very well be the tightie-wighties or the whitey tighties which may have caused me to appear delusional! He also suggested I spend more time in the real world. I wonder if he knows just who is in the real world?
poolman, I’d wait a day or two!
Helen, we could use some help here!
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 10, 2011
at 12:21 PM
Fun stuff.
I wonder if the 9/11 bombers were upset cos their undies were in a bunch? I wonder why the FBI hasn’t officially solved the case but tammy has it all figured out? I wonder how come commn sense is none too common? I wonder why Noah left the ark? I wonder if it was safe to venture out? Hmmmm…
It’s a day of wonder. 😉
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By: poolman on March 10, 2011
at 11:46 AM
Margaret? Helen? We miss you! Please stop by soon. I know it’s silly but we worry!
Don’t wear open-toed shoes, though, as there is bait all over the floor.
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By: delurkergurl on March 10, 2011
at 11:44 AM
“Cynthia, no one but you seems to be under the delusion that we are doing anything but having a conversation here.”
Cynthia, I didn’t realize that you were delusional in thinking that you WERE having a conversation. I guess maybe you were just blinded by all the tightie-wighties, huh?
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By: elsie09 on March 10, 2011
at 11:20 AM
HRH sofia EQ, something we out here in the real world like to call common sense.
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By: tammyharper on March 10, 2011
at 11:15 AM
Tammy, have you been hanging out with those 9/11 bomber types again? I can’t imaging how else you would know so intimately what they were thinking. Just how do you know so well, what they were thinking????
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By: HRH sofia EQ on March 10, 2011
at 11:01 AM
Very good No one’s puppet. All the brilliant and articulate thought we have come to know you for. Never change kiddo.
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By: tammyharper on March 10, 2011
at 10:47 AM
Tammy is an asshat!
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By: No one's puppet on March 10, 2011
at 10:41 AM
Cynthia—“we” is the group that “tammyharper” represents…the calm, loving, all-encompassing friendly voices that yearn for civility and reasoned debate about the complex issues that are the most important to us all.
You know, along the lines of “Just like the 9-11 bombers, you cannot tolerate anything that isn’t in your belief system, and believe their is no room in this world for those different than yourself.”
Ya know…like that.
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By: elsie09 on March 10, 2011
at 10:11 AM
Cynthia, no one but you seems to be under the delusion that we are doing anything but having a conversation here.
What I think I’ve learned is that the majority here are not very different than the bombers that hit us on 9-11, other than that they were a tad bit more dedicated. They were willing to do whatever it took to see to it their agenda comes to fruition, this group is no different. Your morality and ethics only apply when it suits you. The moment it becomes an inconvenience, you turn a blind eye, allow it to happen and continue on. While I don’t agree with Republicans on a great many topics, tea party included, at least they for the most part stick by their ideals, to the bitter end.
Liberals, as demonstrated better than I could ever have described it myself on these boards, are very much different. You are committed to your beliefs to the point of being ultra radical. So blinded by the end objective that you seemingly refuse to see the rest of the world around you. Just like the 9-11 bombers, you cannot tolerate anything that isn’t in your belief system, and believe their is no room in this world for those different than yourself. The words on this board prove this to the point of being irrefutable.
This is exactly why I think we need a 3 party system. Break up this “good ol boy” club and give people another choice when the two big boys get so wrapped up in taking each other on they forget the people living out in the real world.
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By: tammyharper on March 10, 2011
at 9:51 AM
miss tammyharper,
If you think we are going to solve this country’s problems sitting here on Helen’s porch. If you think Washington is reading and listening to us on this blog. If you think fighting among ourselves is going to change one damn thing then I have a designer jacket for you. I think a nice pastel flower print, lace collar and cuffs with a Mary Janes’ applique would look stunning on you.
whitey tighties – when one’s clothes, in this case underwear, doesn’t fit right it can make one grumpy. Ever had a bra that just doesn’t feel comfortable or a pair of panties that keep riding up giving you a wedgy? Makes one grumpy.
And tammy my dear, I have been insulted and critized by far better people than you!
Lighten up, laugh a little, life is far too short to be so uptight.
PS – who is “we”??????????????
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 10, 2011
at 8:24 AM
Cynthia, we have established your MO is to insult everyone you disagree with when you comment, but what did you mean by:
“And Noah, you should consider a larger size of whitey tighties, just saying.”
And for the record I agree not one of the regulars is the slightest bit bothered that millions of union workers are misrepresented. I strongly suspect as with everything else that it is because it happens to favor their side in this situation.
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By: tammyharper on March 10, 2011
at 7:43 AM
Want to help? https://secure.actblue.com/page/recallrepublican8
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By: No one's puppet on March 10, 2011
at 12:02 AM
Craig, I don’t doubt for a moment, that union people have every intention of bringing the nonunion people along. One hand washes another!
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By: No one's puppet on March 9, 2011
at 10:39 PM
Nailed it Jean!
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By: No one's puppet on March 9, 2011
at 10:38 PM
Craig,
I don’t have all the answers to our problems. What I understand is Worker’s Unions and the GI Bill of Rights after WWII helped build the middle class and the standard of living we enjoy (or enjoyed) today. I think the Unions have been blamed for more of our problems then Unions are responsible for causing.
Give me an alternative. Who, what will protect the rights of the average worker, not Doctors, Lawyers, Wall Street people or CEO. But the average blue collar, white collar worker. The government? The Republicans? The Democrats? The Corporations?
WHO???………..TELL ME! I AM LISTENING.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 9, 2011
at 10:35 PM
Cynthia,
And “we” presume all union workers are democrats?
Could it be that we are all left/right/liberal/conservative are impacted by unions and their control of wages, workers rights or non-rights..control of $ spent by companies to supplement union health care..regardless that the economy is not keeping up with the price hikes..and on and on…gas and oil hikes…At what point does the union say OK we know we cannot have it all, while the rest of the non union people have to suck it up and get along…
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By: Craig on March 9, 2011
at 10:07 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
It looks like Walker and the Wisconsin legislature just decided that if you can’t play fair by the rules, then you just make up new ones to fit your purpose, even if they are ultimately struck down as illegal. By then the damage will have been done. Still, the public at large is vulnerable to misinformation from ubiquitous marketing efforts employed to influence political policy (in partnership with their generous backers.)
I’m back again with some of my infantile presumptions of pretentiousness.
It seems to me that a business, whether large or small, has either a product(s) or a service(s) to sell. For that, it needs customers. Now, if the customer doesn’t want or cannot afford what the business is offering – no sale. The business fails. Where do those customers come from? For openers, they have to have jobs and disposable incomes above the subsistence level to even go shopping! If the business cannot or will not deliver the goods or services, then it is in no position to whine, complain and blame it all on unions. Mais que sais je? What do I know?
This much I do know. India was a pretty backward, almost Third World country, especially after the many years of British Empire domination and exploitation. After she achieved her independence, she became probably the largest democracy in the world, population wise. Under the leadership of Prime Minister Indira Ghandi from 1966-1977, her highest priority was to accelerate literacy and the level of education in her country. So where is India now several generations later? Her expertise, especially in science and technology is commonplace. India is ASCENDING in standing among the nations of the world in economics and standard of living for her people.
Meanwhile, back in the U.S. during the tenure of Ronald Reagan as governor of California, he effectively gutted that state’s education from kindergarten through the entire university system. Where are we now several generations later? We are DESCENDING rapidly in standing among the nations of the world in economics and standard of living for OUR people overall.
I know this from personal experience as my family and I lived in California from 1964-1976. Our children were in the public education system and as a California resident, I took courses at three California Universities for 6 years – the cost: $2.00 per unit.
So what do we do now? Whine and complain about THEM. All those THEM across the globe.
As one of the old people Cynthia wrote about above, I worry. I don’t relish being set afloat on an diminishing ice floe with polar bears and seals for neighbors. Don’t get me wrong. I like polar bears and seals! I think they are adorable critters. But many of us old people are too!
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 9, 2011
at 9:49 PM
Noah,
I am the only one I can control. The only one I want to or need to control.
IMO, Republicans want to control, need to control everyone. The only one they can not control is themselves.
And Noah, you should consider a larger size of whitey tighties, just saying.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 9, 2011
at 9:29 PM
Hey, delurkergurl, I thought all senior citizens would be happy voting Republican just as long as the GOP promises to cut taxes, balance the budget, keep Medicare and Social Security churning out those billions in payments, and protect the nice tax breaks of zero taxation to the top 1% of the most obscenely wealthy Americans.
Did I cover the waterfront there?
Of course, cutting taxes won’t balance the budget. And the really hard decisions that no one wants to face are about Medicare and Social Security.
Additionally, much progress toward financial solvency could be made if everyone paid their fair share of taxes, including the obscenely rich SOBs like the Koch boys, and the myriad ginormous corporations like G.E., which is one among many, for example, that pay NO taxes.
Oh, and if our military expenses weren’t generating trillians in debt to pay for foreign wars …
The classic case of the ignorance of some Americans wanting what they want and the hell with trying to pay for it was apparent to SOME of us when President Obama described a letter he received from a Medicare recipient: “I got a letter the other day from a woman. She said, ‘I don’t want government-run health care. I don’t want socialized medicine. And don’t touch my Medicare.'”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/get-your-goddamn-governme_b_252326.html
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By: elsie09 on March 9, 2011
at 9:06 PM
delurkergurl,
I look at it like this, the Unions are doing an “intervention”. You know, when some one is making a bad decision or an action that is not in their best interest, you intervene. Try to talk sense, explain the ramifications of their actions. But there are times when the men with the white designer jackets that button up the back with the extra long sleeves and brass buckles on the cuffs are needed.
I don’t know what to do about the old people. With global warming there are just not enough ice bergs left.
Speaking of interventions, there are a few politicians in Washington and else where that could use “intervention”. Then again there are those way, waaay past it. Personalize jackets, solids, prints, plaids, and a number with horizontal black and white stripes. Jackets with the logos of the corporations they represent with extra long sleeves.
Michelle looks great in yellow. Of course Sarah is outstanding in red. Boehner – navy blue with crossed golf clubs and a shot glass in the V. Newt – dates his alimony payments are due. Trump – number of companies he has bankrupted. Isa – the horizontal stripe number, perfect. McCain – number of times he flip-flopped. Rudy – number he’s used 9-11.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 9, 2011
at 8:50 PM
I find it interesting, and illuminating, that the all though millions of workers are being misrepresented, the main point being considered is how and why they would decide to cast their vote for a Republican. Very interesting, and telling indeed.
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By: Noah on March 9, 2011
at 8:24 PM
Similar question… why would a senior citizen want to vote Republican? All sorts of people vote against their own interests.
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By: delurkergurl on March 9, 2011
at 6:30 PM
Craig,
Why would a union worker really want to vote Republican?
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 9, 2011
at 6:15 PM
Actually didn’t know IBM started the three-piece suit thing for engineers, I’d always heard EDS was the only one; my son by the way is an Industrial Engineer and works with his brain. But at that time everywhere else engineers and computer programmers wore casual wear to work. My son now works for IBM.
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By: No one's puppet on March 9, 2011
at 4:06 PM
Tammyharper has a point.
“I find it more than a little bothersome that millions of workers pay dues to be represented, and fully almost half are misrepresented. If we cannot trust these people to manage the money properly how can we trust them to represent any of our other interests, including our jobs.”
Kinda reminds me of that small city council outside LA that took their jobs and made it their job to screw the whole town while they made millions off the back of their constituents. Naw..that would never happen in unions. Where is that Jimmy Hoffa memorial anyway?
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By: Craig on March 9, 2011
at 4:06 PM
Lets take this one step further. Imagine casting your vote for a Liberal Democrat only to have him cast all his votes for Republican legislation.
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By: tammyharper on March 9, 2011
at 3:32 PM
NOP,
My first interview at Corporate EDS HQ was hilarious in hindsight.
I got the hair cut so as to not have it over my ears.
Bought the 3 piece dark blue suit with brass buttons.
Had new loafers.
Interview went great.
Coming back down elevator this young man got on with me and started looking me over as if I had toilet paper coming out the back of my pants.
I inquired if there was anything wrong.
He then informed me that I obviously was wearing the new dress code.
That being..loafers..and that the brass buttons were a new addition as well.
Perot had as you know worked for IBM and they were all cookie cutter dark suits with wingtip shoes. It was certainly a cultural experience for the year that I was there. They expected the engineer who I worked with to operate in a 3 piece suit..and we were “working” as in “physical working”…no cubicles in our world.
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By: Craig on March 9, 2011
at 3:31 PM
jsri, guess I find it more than a little bothersome that millions of workers pay dues to be represented, and fully almost half are misrepresented. If we cannot trust these people to manage the money properly how can we trust them to represent any of our other interests, including our jobs.
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By: tammyharper on March 9, 2011
at 3:30 PM
I am so glad I found this site. I needed it as there are times when I feel rather in alone in my views.
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By: Michiele Ogilbee on March 9, 2011
at 3:01 PM
Tammy, let the electorate of Wisconsin decide, who is right and who is wrong; the last election won’t be the “last election.”
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By: No one's puppet on March 9, 2011
at 2:46 PM
tammyharper on March 9, 2011 at 12:24 PM
Re unions you said “Seems to me the union is its own entity doing what it will regardless of what those who pay in desire.”
The rank and file members two options,
1. refuse to pay their dues
2. vote out the union leadership
However there may be consequences to their actions that they might not like. Then what?
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By: jsri on March 9, 2011
at 2:44 PM
tammyharper on March 9, 2011 at 12:24 PM
Re unions you said “
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By: jsri on March 9, 2011
at 2:40 PM
Craig:
Ross Perot certainly showed the Iranians that it was not wise to threaten Americans. Unfortunately these little uncontrolled deeds of derring-do are what people in other countries remember about the USA and hate us for it, – the Iranians especially. Imagine how you would feel if the roles were reversed. Oh never mind. Some of us remember 1979.
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By: jsri on March 9, 2011
at 2:35 PM
Craig, my son’s first job out of college was at EDS, although I think General Motors had bought it by then, it still had some of the same policies as when Perot owned it, the engineers wore three-piece suits. I guess, he resigned in good standing with the company, he worked for them again after a stint with another company.
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By: No one's puppet on March 9, 2011
at 2:35 PM
That was an “Iranian” prison…they got them out of…
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By: Craig on March 9, 2011
at 1:50 PM
NOP
“I was intrigued by Ross Perot, then he dropped out with the story about threats against his family, I was suspicious because of that.”
I worked for a subsidiary of Perot’s EDS in Dallas from Aug79 to July 80. It was a company designed to sell video’s thru the mail as well as produce some our own films.
Innovision was the name. As for Perot’s suspicions about security and his family security I can speak personally to that. I wrote a screenplay based on first hand accounts provided to me that was to be copyrighted and filed away. This way no one could do a story about how Perot got his people out of Iran after the Shah’s demise. Perot had many executives who were ex-military and with the help of Col. Bull Simon pulled off the extraction of of two of his people held captive in an Iraqi prison. Even Perot in disguise, went into the prison to scout the place. Col Simon and his people got the guys out and not without leaving a few Iraqi souls behind.
The company “Innovision”, was ahead of its time because people could soon rent at the local corner store aka Blockbuster. So my stay under Perot’s company was a short lived experience.
The day I was separated from the company I had to go thru a security debrief and hand in my keys at Perot’s HQ. While I’m sitting there in security here come five guys dressed as gardners, except they were all armed with pistols on their back side. They were Ross’s home security detail.
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By: Craig on March 9, 2011
at 1:48 PM
18 days since the Dems fled their state. I wonder how many of us would have our jobs if we failed to show for 18 days? Also found another interesting fact on unions. 49% of union members vote for Democrats and 47% vote for Republicans, yet 93% of union campaign dollars are directed to the democrat party. Not very representative of the people paying their dues. Seems to me the union is its own entity doing what it will regardless of what those who pay in desire.
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By: tammyharper on March 9, 2011
at 12:24 PM
PFesser on March 9, 2011 at 9:07 AM
You said “There is a much larger picture that I don’t believe you are seeing:”
I see the picture very clearly. The problem is globalization.
Every time an international company ships its technology to third world countries, it gets stolen and we get it back in cheaper versions of the original. As long as global reach companies continue to do this we will be at a disadvantage. This cycle will never end until third world workers are at comparable pay scales to those in top tier countries but I don’t see that happening any time soon.
I live in the Northeast where the textile business flourished (after stealing the technology from England) until the 1920’s where the mill owners moved to the non-union south and the New England workers were left out in the cold. But that only lasted to the 1980’s when the textile manufacturers started moving their production facilities to China and other low-wage countries. While Craig pointed out that the new BMW plant will do wonders for the area in South Carolina because it is non-union, how long do you think it will take before the plant gets moved to China?
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By: jsri on March 9, 2011
at 11:33 AM
Craig and Val,
Good luck, The work is about to begin. I send my best wishes for a long and happy future
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By: Mikat on March 9, 2011
at 9:39 AM
Date and time? Has Sarah, actually, authorized cameras, etc?
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By: No one's puppet on March 9, 2011
at 9:37 AM
jsri opined:
“Good luck to you. If unions ever get legislated out of existence you’ll get what you deserve, about 11.75 cents per hour.”
There is a much larger picture that I don’t believe you are seeing: You cannot compete with countries that pay $3/day; people will simply buy their products and you will get, um, about 00.00 cents per hour.
We MUST compete on the world stage, and we cannot pay union scale and do that. Having been a union miner, that is very sad to me, but it does not change the truth. In addition, public employees have traditionally made far less wage and benefit than private employees doing the same job, because the job security is more. Unions have distorted wages, benefits and have destroyed their supervisors’ ability to weed out the non-productive players. I saw that during my stint on the school board, where we were absolutely unable to thin out the dead wood because of protection by the teachers’ union.
It cannot go on this way. We can accept it and try to work out an answer together or we can fight and end up working for the Chinese. On second thought, that might be OK; they don’t put up with that kind of crap.
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By: PFesser on March 9, 2011
at 9:07 AM
This just in:
Sarah Palin to speak at “Liberty” “University” in Lynchburg, VA. For those who don’t know, that is a school The Right Reverend Jerry Farwell put together with tax-free money with hopes of continuing propaganda into adulthood for his parishioners’ kids. A bottom-tier college that assiduously avoids teaching its biology students about evolution, lest they (horrors!) learn some science with their dogma.
KLYH is a short flight for me; unless I am stopped by her security detail, I plan to attend. You can pick me out of the crowd; I’ll have the poster that reads, “Sarah Palin – Proof Abortion is a Good Idea.”
Feh.
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By: PFesser on March 9, 2011
at 8:56 AM
Craig, I’m certain her doctor wants to do a quick exam before she allows that poison to be introduced to Val’s body. I know many cases where the cancer has just gone away. That is always a possibility. God is in the business of healing and restoring us. It’s usually us who hinders His abilities. Safe travels. I pray He goes before you and surrounds you both with ministering angels.
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By: poolman on March 9, 2011
at 8:48 AM
LOL Yep Barry Goldwater would be considered a social liberal democrat. I think he might have been a bit too “libertarian ” to fit nicely in the democratic party though. He certainly didn’t think the government had any business in a woman’s uterus that’s for sure! And the religious right made him spit nails!
We can thank Nixon for our relationship with China. He did have the vision of a global society. He was a little before his time on that one. Other than that I can’t think of a dang thing Nixon did for us. sorry LOL LOL
Oh and Jimmy Carter… I love that man… such a humanitarian…
Ike would most definitely be a democrat by today’s standards. LOL He was left of Clinton !!! Probably right about where Obama falls on the scale, wouldn’t you think?
Everyone knows I have only voted for one repub in my life! I thought lightening was going to strike me dead that day! LOL I even helped her get elected! Imagine that!!!!! To this day, she doesn’t believe I actually pulled the lever for her though! She would hear me tease (?) my husband, that if he ran for office, not to count on My vote. 😉 Turns out I am a better friend than a democrat. Whodddda thunk it?
Yep Craig, you will know soon enough! When I have spoken with cancer survivors they all tell me: THE hardest part of dealing with this beast is before there is a plan in place to fight. So after Thursday, things will get easier for val each day. Soon we will be celebrating her “birthday” together and this nightmare will be behind us. You will see…have safe travels namaste
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By: lori on March 9, 2011
at 5:20 AM
Craig, I know a bit about Avastin, it was originally authorized for another type of cancer, but Oncologists gravitated to using it for breast cancer without FDA approval and for some types of breast cancer it works like gangbusters, with little of no side effects, but for other types or other DNA types, it does little or nothing. Thus the extensive testing Val had, I would suppose. By this time, I wouldn’t be a bit surprised that Val knows more about it than you, I, or your neighbor, the “drug rep,” since she is a doctor and has the Internet. 🙂
You do realize in today’s political climate, Barry Goldwater would be considered a liberal, don’t you. I didn’t vote for Nixon, but in retrospect in several areas, foreign policy for one, I would give him an A. By today’s standards, another liberal Republican, although at the time he was considered politically conservative to moderate. Jimmy Carter, who I did vote for, is a very honorable man, but he couldn’t delegate for a damn. He was even personally in charge of the schedule for the tennis court during his Presidency, there had to be a better use for his time. Even so if he had the ability to work with Congress better, who knows. I was intrigued by Ross Perot, then he dropped out with the story about threats against his family, I was suspicious because of that. And then when he came back into the race, I figured him for no more than a curiosity. But The closest I came to bucking the family Democratic trait was in elementary school when I wore an “I Like Ike” button to school everyday. And to my family’s amusement, I meant it too! I think, my favorite President, based on my reading is Harry Truman.
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By: No one's puppet on March 8, 2011
at 11:28 PM
jsri, Our family gets our income 100% from our family business. We chose not to let another person be in control of our financial future, which you are by default allowing when you are an employee of someone else.
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By: tammyharper on March 8, 2011
at 11:06 PM
No one’s puppet,
I heard from the drug rep across the street that the FDA had been talkin about taking Avastin off the market ..why I don’t Know..something about efficacy and if its worthwhile..I guess we will know in 48 hours.
I remember going to see Kennedy the night before he was assassinated when he landed at Carswell AFB. The family who took me were Republicans and were for Barry Goldwater.
Interesting I was for Kennedy because my family was..I was 13. Wow ..I knew so much. Goldwater was going to blow up the world….4.3.2.1 BOOM
Later in 1983, I met Barry at Bell Helicopter when he came to fly an experimental A/C.
Nice guy..I remember while walking backwards filming him.. he said young fella your about to walk into that tail rotor.
I voted for Nixon..then Carter..what a waste..then Perot..another waste. Then Straight Republican from then on. I know how your going to complete that paragraph.
Peace Yall.
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By: Craig on March 8, 2011
at 10:06 PM
tammyharper on March 8, 2011 at 5:38 PM
You closed out your latest piece by declaring “I greatly prefer to trust in my own abilities to keep my job.”
Good luck to you. If unions ever get legislated out of existence you’ll get what you deserve, about 11.75 cents per hour.
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By: jsri on March 8, 2011
at 9:55 PM
Okay, NOP, I have to disagree with you on this point where you say:
“In so far as choosing a political party, statistically, it stays in the family. If mom and dad were X Y or Z, so are you.”
I don’t think I ever voted for the same person my parents chose. Not even once.
However, that was then, and this is now. So many people now don’t do any research for themselves, so they can be fooled with talking points instead of making their own informed decisions. So maybe your experience today is often more accurate. However, I still wouldn’t vote for the bigots and liars promoted by Fox and the Koch heads.
Why, did you see what Huckabee said about Obama? Steven Colbert did a funny piece yesterday that includes a great number of outrageous lies from Huckabee. The Mau Mau, Obama growing up in Kenya, the British imperialists, blah-blah-blah…just completely lying about where and how Obama was raised. Huckabee is another one of those so-called Christians completely lying through his teeth.
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By: elsie09 on March 8, 2011
at 9:08 PM
Why Lori, I had no idea you were so tolerant! I guess you forgot to tell him, he is a Democrat. Lol
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By: No one's puppet on March 8, 2011
at 8:46 PM
Yekkk NOP, I have a mixed marriage, does that mean one of my kids has a good chance of becoming a ……? Oh I’m not sure I can say the word….. LOL LOL
j/k of course…
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By: lori on March 8, 2011
at 7:46 PM
Craig, it could be a really bad sign that the doctor insists on meeting with you in person, but it could also be a sign of real compassion. No way to really know, right? Just keep praying. The ultimate physician is in charge of everyone’s steps anyway. They gave you several details about the treatment so they must have a plan – that’s a big part of the battle, right? This gives you a great opportunity to WRITE DOWN every question you have. Best wishes for the best possible answers to them all.
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By: delurkergurl on March 8, 2011
at 7:16 PM
Craig- best wishes for Val and you.
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By: alaskapi on March 8, 2011
at 7:14 PM
Hi Craig, I notice Avastin is on the list of drugs, it is one I mentioned to you quite awhile back. Seems that it is controversial for breast cancer in this country in so far as the FDA is concerned, but insurance companies have decided they will pay for it anyway. I have a neighbor on it and she is on the go all the time and swears by it, so that is good enough for me. Just happy the doctors are ready to treat Val.
In so far as choosing a political party, statistically, it stays in the family. If mom and dad were X Y or Z, so are you. Best I’ve heard was from my nephew, he told me his wife told him he was a Republican, so he guessed, he was a Republican. I always say, vote for your own self interest.
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By: No one's puppet on March 8, 2011
at 7:06 PM
LORI,
Thanks for the thoughts..Just higher gas this trip…
Wish I knew why she couldn’t tell us over the phone what she wanted to do..because the drugs are common and we will be getting the treatments in Lubbock.
I just know my wife gave me “this look” and said we are going.
So road trip Thursday am to Friday afternoon.
Later all..
And PFesser..any comments? Suggestions from what you see in the chemo regimen?
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By: Craig on March 8, 2011
at 6:16 PM
jsri,
I understand.
My father with a ninth grade education learned on the railroad his electrical profession..but then had to join the union to work in building the bomber plant in Fort Worth. I’m sure at the time as a single man it was worth it in order to get a job.
My father then bought out his owner and became a sole proprietor. He had a small company..Actually one truck and whatever work he could muster for that day. He could not get any union help because they wanted continued daily work and dad could not promise what he did not have. So he started hiring people as he needed. And he also was not involved in any Union work projects. Dad ended up hiring a young Hispanic Navy trained electrician. Gosh they use to argue..it sounded like Chico and the Man. But Dad for all his union years probably got some cheaper insurance..I cannot qualify that. I do know that his union card got him on his feet but HE made his own company and did not bid on union jobs. But to the day he died he was a democrat. So in essence I can see where there is good and bad as there is in everything. We cannot paint a picture with a broad brush and say all union activity is wrong..or right.
Peace.
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By: Craig on March 8, 2011
at 6:10 PM
Thankfully we don’t base are major decisions based on one lone experience. I have had both union and non union jobs. I far prefer non union places. At the same time I have worked for companies that unions were absolutely necessary, though I suspect their existence caused them to be necessary.
When working for Coca-Cola, a company that is absolutely at war with itself. The management and union sides of the company are totally distrustful of each other and are in a never ending battle. This company is the perfect example of the good and bad and the ugly with unions. I think the battle between workers and management is due to the existence of the union, but in turn because of this battle the union employee absolutely needs the union.
One time we were fighting to get a cooler into a certain store. After months we finally got permission to put in a cooler. The cooler was delivered and both the sales rep and the merchandiser arrived that day to see to it that it was filled and ready to be used. That is until we were informed that it was a cooler service job according to union contract, so we were not allowed to install said cooler until cooler service arrived. All that was needed was to push it out the back to its spot, plug it in and fill it with 20oz bottles. Since cooler service was way behind it took them 2 weeks to get in. They pushed it to the front of the store, plugged it in and left, without putting any 20oz pop inside. They said that was a merchandisers designated job so they didn’t fill it. Needless to say the store was fed up and we lost the cooler.
I can see the necessity where the workers need representation in some companies, I am just not convinced the antiquated model of unions are the only or best way to get it done. I also see a lot of waste that goes on because of the procedures set in place by unions. Between dues, unpaid time spent if you are actually working as one of the reps for the union, and the atmosphere created in shops because of a unions presence, I greatly prefer to trust in my own abilities to keep my job.
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By: tammyharper on March 8, 2011
at 5:38 PM
Well at least you are beginning to form a plan of action Craig! Yay!!!!! I hear Dallas has tornado warnings there today! Not sure if that’s better or worse than an ice storm…. but I’m guessing better.
God’s speed in your travels.
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By: lori on March 8, 2011
at 5:32 PM
Craig on March 7, 2011 at 5:16 PM
I was plodding through your tireless and seemingly endless rant until I found this bauble of wisdom.
“Unions..or no unions? That is the question. To keep up artificially high wages for people, many of which are not held accountable for the capability of doing their job.”
As you might surmise from previous posts I like to deal with actual, living cases, mostly from my own experiences or those of other members of my family. So here goes.
I had two brothers, both now deceased who were WWII Navy veterans. The oldest served first on carriers and then island hopped from airfield to airfield across the pacific while the younger one served on submarines in some of the most torrid action of the war.
When the oldest brother separated from the Navy in 1946 he went to work as a heavy equipment operator. After several years free-lancing, he joined a union because they had more access to jobs than he could scare up on his own. But the dues were hefty and he pissed and moaned about them at first. But the union also offered him something he could never do on his own. They schooled him in how to operate just about every piece of heavy equipment that was available at the time. This gave him an opportunity to bid on jobs where the owners of the equipment were assured that he was not a junkyard cowboy about to dump their million dollar machines into the nearest creek. But the worth of his union membership really came into play when he retired. Up until the day he died of pancreatic cancer about seven years ago, all his medical bills were paid in full and his drug co-pays were pennies per day. And his wife, who is still alive, is similarly covered today. She also has the benefit of a substantial pension that allows her to live in her own home, clothe and feed herself, and drive a decent automobile.
The second brother, discharged in 1947 worked at a series of odd jobs and finally settled down to do finish carpentry. It was a pretty hand to mouth existence, and with four children in the family, savings were scant. And there were no benefits on any of the jobs he had. Then about 15 years ago he had an accident on the job and ended up having a back operation that never put him back into the work force full time. There was no insurance to cover the cost and workman’s comp denied his claim so what little savings he and his wife had accumulated were used to pay medical bills. His wife was a nurse and none of the jobs she held during those times had benefits either. When he died about five years ago, all she had to exist on was her Social Security payments. She had to sell their house during one of the worst housing recessions in our history and put the money into payment for an assisted living arrangement where she now lives, – or barely exists.
So in your profound judgement which one was better served by the system? On second thought I’ll let the other readers be the judge of that.
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By: jsri on March 8, 2011
at 4:25 PM
elsie09, NOP, Lori,
Here’s the news..Hope its good when we get there. We go to Dallas on Thursday..we were notified this Tuesday am.
Here is the e-mail:
Hi Dr. Robinson,
Please note our new address below under my name. Please come to 4th floor a little earlier before 5.00 pm. The front desk will close at 5.00 pm. You can call me directly when you get here and I will go get you.
The chemo that Dr. O’ would like to recommend to you is called Abraxine and Xeloda. She is thinking to add Avastin with it too. I will let her tell you the detail herself.
Thank you
Rungpet (May) Capehart, RN, BSN, OCN
RN Senior-Clinical Research
Texas Oncology, P.A.-Sammons Cancer Center
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By: Craig on March 8, 2011
at 3:16 PM
Whirled Peas, the next time you drop by here, please check out http://chatterclatter.wordpress.com
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By: elsie09 on March 8, 2011
at 2:26 PM
guess i always considered it a point of semantics being a board to post on or a blog. amazing what some people find important.
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By: tammyharper on March 8, 2011
at 1:54 PM
Sewmouse, you made several interesting points. The one that speaks the most to me is:
“These aren’t ‘Boards’. This is the comments section of Helen and Margaret’s PERSONAL blog.”
It’s really strange to me how normal, everyday communications among readers of a blog somehow, mysteriously, become controlled by “boards”.
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By: elsie09 on March 8, 2011
at 12:07 PM
Sewmouse, if you were to be fair…you would see that for days I maintained my composure as I tried to get people to stop attacking me personally. Just another of this boards tactics to drive people off. They attack you day after day after day. When you finally reach a breaking point, and return fire, they suddenly find their morality and cry that they were attacked. The most amazing part is the amnesia that suddenly afflicts all of them as they act like they did nothing to instigate the problem in the first place.
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By: tammyharper on March 8, 2011
at 10:51 AM
“I see JeanΔ ¥ has come out as a member of this boards regulars to drive out people who don’t think as she does. Your post seems to be of the same thought process as No one’s puppet, ie put words in my mouth I never said and make unfounded speculation through hate and insults. If, like the rest of your gang of thugs, find that you can’t have a civilized conversation then how about keeping your bitter and spiteful speeches to yourself?”
DEAR TAMMY: – that up there? That quote from your comment? That is what we all consider to be WHINING. You aren’t expressing an opinion. You aren’t contributing to the discussion – you are WHINING that people won’t treat you like a Princess and kow-tow to your side of the “arguement”.
Yes, the Patriotic 14 Democratic Wisconsin State Senators should be here in Illinois. They should stay here in Illinois until a proper debate on this issue has been accomplished.
The Federal Government Republican Senators did exactly the same thing via secret “holds” and over-use of the “Fillibuster” rule of the Senate. You might could want to read up on that, Tammie Snookiedimples. Both forms of “protest” are means to stop rubber-stamping of an agenda, and equally valid. If you don’t approve of the WI14, then you shouldn’t approve of the (R) Senators holding legislation and federal appointments hostage.
And Tammy, dear? Nobody gives a rats what you think about the situation in the Middle East.
Oh, and one last thing? These aren’t “Boards”. This is the comments section of Helen and Margaret’s PERSONAL blog. You don’t like it? Go find a blogger who floats your boat.
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By: Sewmouse on March 8, 2011
at 9:25 AM
In 1910, at age 13 my father began working as a machinist’s apprentice at a textile mill in Lawrence Mass. He worked 10 hrs a day six days a week for 12.5 cents/hr. His bosses promised to reduce him to 56 hrs/wk when he became a journeyman machinist which could take up to ten years. His pay, along with that of two brothers also working in the mills, went into a family pool that kept he and his brothers, his long widowed mother, and 2 younger sisters alive. Their combined salaries of about $25.00 paid for food, rent, clothing and streetcar fares for the whole family. There was nothing for extras
In 1912, after hearing horror stories about underage girls, some as young as nine getting killed or mangled in the dangerous machinery, the Mass Legislature passed a law putting the maximum hours which stood at 56/week in 1912 down to 54. The mill owners, in turn, reduced the worker’s salaries just enough to offset the reduction in hours. Since most of the women loom tenders were immigrants the owners thought they would get away with the reduction but the women with the backing of the nascent IWW went on strike. It became known as the “Bread and Roses” strike.
At this point things really got ugly and many strikers were arrested, one female was shot and killed by police and many were badly beaten by company hired goons. However, this was one of the earliest movements that showed the effectiveness of the strike as a bargaining tactic. But the workers took their eyes off the ball and within two years all their gains were nullified and they were no better off than they were in 1912.
So, how do I feel about the current wave of union bashing going on right now? In the past I have been in a union and I have also had to deal with unions from the management side. Despite the prickliness of dealing with unions from the management side, I could not envision a world without them. If we lose them I can only imagine the speed at which we will return to the conditions of the early 1900s. All I will be able to say is “Welcome to 1910.”
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By: jsri on March 8, 2011
at 9:01 AM
Craig, tell Val that we are thinking about her and hoping that good news comes to both of you this week.
I don’t have enough hours in the day to expound on what I think about the unions. I’ll leave that to the rest of you.
Hope this day goes well for all of you, especially Val and Craig, who really need some good news.
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By: elsie09 on March 8, 2011
at 9:00 AM
Well said Craig. Too bad the posse is so busy running the bad guys off the porch to take the time to address the points you made.
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By: Peterbilt on March 8, 2011
at 7:43 AM
Awww G Craig, just when I was about to mail your DNC membership card you go and post something like this! LOL LOL Where’s that yaller dog gene that I know is laying dormant in you somewhere!
Sending all positive vibes your way Craig hang in there….. It’s gonna be this week I can just feel it. 😉
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By: lori on March 8, 2011
at 5:25 AM
Yet no one addresses the points Craig makes. For what it’s worth, well said…
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By: an800lbgorilla on March 8, 2011
at 4:43 AM
Craig, I knew it had been a long time, but four weeks, you find out who is responsible, I’ll kick them too. Not right! Like many here, I’ve come to like you a lot and by extension Val, we really do think of you everyday and although I don’t pray, I do something like it, I suppose.
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By: No one's puppet on March 7, 2011
at 11:02 PM
delurkergurl,Poolman and NOP..
Yep..
Guess I’ve got a lot of pent up crap inside.
No news and four weeks post op this Wednesday.
Wearing thin on Val and I.
Basically getting real religious at this point asking God for guidance and solace..as nothing has been done for over two months now. So we’re leaving it in God’s hands to deliver in “his” time the information to the doctors when he believes its ready.
Peace.
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By: Craig on March 7, 2011
at 10:23 PM
OMG, Craig. You’ve gone off the wagon again. That’s one heck of a rant. Now my mom lives near Greenville, I’ll have to ask her if the traffic has increased at the local Walmart or not. That is a fairly depressed spot of the world and all. Course I think Duke Energy has bought up most of the land in them thar parts. I’ll get back to you on that. Hope Val is doing well.
Tammy, I’ve been through most of your rants here, and I think you essentially bring the bulk of the “hate” down on yourself. But hey, I don’t have a problem with you showing your hiney in public if you prefer – free speech and all. It’s somewhat amusing, anyway. Besides, with today’s style of dress, I’ve learned to expect just about anything in public. I mean, if a guy’s in drag for a night on the town and doesn’t have the figure for it, he shouldn’t expect cat calls just because he’s wearing six-inch heels and a skimpy skirt.
Some things never change. Other things are constantly changing. Yeehaw! What a ride. Hold tight!
Helen, this thread is getting reeeeaaaaalll loooonngg. We’re ready for anything you can give us. I mean it. Really.
Love you guys.
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By: poolman on March 7, 2011
at 9:57 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
Cynthia, I very much like your line “Americans should be informed not entertained.” I suppose we could all sit around for hours, watching c-span and taking notes. Unfortunately for me, I am not one of those people incapable of being bored absolutely to death. There does seem to be more interest and preoccupation with mindless ‘entertainment’ such as Charlie Sheen, Fox News, Sarah Palin, et al, that command the time and attention of the general public. After all, water does seek its own level. Helen’s genius is her ability to entertain as well as inform, quite accurately, at the same time.
jsri, glad to see you jump into the fray once again. You are by far, one of our wittiest, to say nothing of the most intelligent, best-educated, life-experienced and eloquent contributors here. (You damn lib’ral you.)
On to a different topic. Any freshman Psychology 101 student soon learns that one of the strongest Defense Mechanisms people commonly use is defined as:
“PROJECTION; whereby the individual unconsciously convinces him/herself that others have the undesirable thoughts and motives which he/she actually has him/herself.” An example of this is when a person accuses another of using pejorative words such as “hate”, “ignorant”, “uncivilized”. That person is PROJECTING his/her own feelings about him/herself onto the other. This Defense Mechanism is most prevalent in individuals who have profound feelings of inadequacy in themselves.
Put another way, whenever a person points a finger, perhaps he/she should look at his/her hand. The index finger is pointed outward toward the accused, but three fingers are pointed at him/herself!!! And the thumb is straight up, invariably making that person stick out like a sore thumb.
Gestures, especially hand or finger gestures, speak much louder than either spoken or written words.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 7, 2011
at 9:49 PM
Wowwww, Craig. That post rivaled one of James’ for epic length for sure! 😀 Any word on the labs yet?
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By: delurkergurl on March 7, 2011
at 9:17 PM
Craig, lol, I told you, you aren’t a Democrat yet, you do sound suspiciously like a Republican, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t agree with you on a couple of points.
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By: No one's puppet on March 7, 2011
at 8:16 PM
First I thought we had gotten past the name calling and beating of chests
and “mine is bigger than yours”..not really. But folks , Hey lets let the lady talk. we wouldn’t blast away at her in a public place. She has her beliefs, I have mine and well most folks that have been here far longer on the porch than I, have ideals I don’t necessarily agree with. But I hear you and do not put you down because of it.
I still value many of the friends I have made here and do not want to go three steps back. But I’m about to expound on my personal views on the middle east, oil and unions.
First I’m glad that the lowers caste have been able to throw off their chains and potentially develop democratic countries that will be of value to all of the people in their respective countries. I just hope there is not a vacuum that will allow anti Israeli interests such as Jihadist terrorist state to develop in these Islamic countries. I now.I know..Islamic people are peaceful people..but the past couple of decades are not prime examples of peacefulness. Just my preconceived notions.
“I honestly am stumped when it comes with what to do about the middle east. There is no room for 17th century thinking in the 21st century. Unfortunately it is so ingrained with their religion and their way of life I don’t think it is fixable. This is one of those situations where I do not think that negation and diplomacy can do anything to make things better.” Tammy Faye
OK..I’m probably going to jump into a big pile of camel dung here ..but I would like to express my opinion and perhaps maybe even try to explain where Ms. Faye is coming from.
First let me acknowledge that Jean, I know you have your pre conceived notions and belief’s about our military industrial complex. Your own husband participated in the pre Eisenhower days of those complexes. That aside.
I have not traveled to the Middle East.
Some will say the entire issue is about oil. The region has been a complicated area since World War One and the territorial borders redrawn from the winners of that war.
Since OIL was discovered there..the Russian,American,Chinese,French, Dutch, German and a and other foreign interests have been courting the various monarchs,dictators and who ever appeared to be in charge. It won’t change any time soon. The world in which we live is completely dependent on oil. So America has no monopoly on the interests in the middle east. Its a global thingy.
To say we invaded Iraq for the oil..I don’t believe it or else we would be pumping light sweet crude into our coffers and not worrying about a shortage.
The Saudi interests have been very protective of that region and its wealth. I’m betting that most of what we are watching is being driven by the Saudi interest.
OPEC has not gone away. Remember 73 ? How about 2008 there was a shortage and oil was not in short supply but and I include the Exxon’s of the world had some pull in generating rate hikes at the pump.
We as Americans are not superior than the rest of the world. But looking at and having been exposed to the third world in a small degree is that the idea of a middle class in those countries is somewhat non existent. There are the rulers and their cronies and followers and then there are the poor who eek out a living with the crumbs they can make from selling crap in a bazaar.
“The other reason unions are “in the cross hairs” of republicans is their continued quest to destroy the middle class.” There is a preponderance of people who do not belong to a union and are still considered middle class. So does that mean if Unions lose some of their rights to stick it to the rest of the voters who duly elected their government, that they should not have a vote..a democratic vote on the issues at hand.
What did the unions do to save General Motors? As I understand it the government just went in and bought it and said do this and do that..and the government will run the company. Sounds a lil like something that would have happened in Russia back in the 50’s. The way I see it, is that the party on the left is afraid that their chain gang of thought police “UNIONS”, will be torn asunder if they start losing some of their power over the rest of us.THE OTHER MIDDLE CLASS.
Have the unions kept jobs in America? Not really. They, by their existence have inflated costs on the manufacturers to the point that to produce a product and make a $ they have had to take those thousands of jobs to China and Mexico. Is the BMW plant in South Carolina a union plant?
Unions..or no unions? That is the question.
To keep up artificially high wages for people, many of which are not held accountable for the capability of doing their job..IE..some teachers and tenure..or as in this case look what no unions have done for free market production and workers in South Carolina…
March 2008:
These days, any American job creation, especially in manufacturing, is going to be seen as good news. But BMW’s announcement cannot be seen as a vote of confidence in the vitality of the U.S. economy, Instead, it seems to be ploy to take advantage of the cheap dollar—and more importantly, cheap labor. Manufacturing workers in South Carolina earn only about one third of what autoworkers are paid in Germany, where BMW is simultaneously cutting employment by more than 7 percent.
Today BMW officials were praising South Carolina’s distribution infrastructure, but what they were really lauding was the anti-union climate in the state, where only 5.4 percent of manufacturing workers (and none at BMW) are represented by union contracts. Cheap labor and weak or non-existent unions: the U.S. South is looking more like the Global South all the time.
October of 2010: As much of the nation grappled with a jobless recovery, a $1 billion expansion at BMW’s assembly plant in South Carolina is expected to create 1,600 new jobs at the facility by the end of the year.
thousand of those employees have already been hired, bringing the total number of workers at the plant near Greenville and Spartanburg to 7,000. The expansion is expected to have a ripple effect throughout the economy in that region of South Carolina, which has already seen a dramatic transition from textile mills to international business over the past two decades.
The money BMW employees spend at local businesses, as well as the company’s extensive network of suppliers in the region, create additional jobs. According to a 2008 study by the Moore School of Business at the University of South Carolina, each BMW job has a multiplier of 4.3.
Thousands of those employees have already been hired, bringing the total number of workers at the plant near Greenville and Spartanburg to 7,000. The expansion is expected to have a ripple effect throughout the economy in that region of South Carolina, which has already seen a dramatic transition from textile mills to international business over the past two decades.
The money BMW employees spend at local businesses, as well as the company’s extensive network of suppliers in the region, create additional jobs. According to a 2008 study by the Moore School of Business at the University of South Carolina, each BMW job has a multiplier of 4.3.
So Labor unions serve as restrictions on free competition. By limiting the potential pool of employees and dictating wage and salary terms, certain economic factors of employers of unionized workers are fixed, such as eligible employees. Closed shops are situations wherein only union members may be employed. This has several negative effects as those jobs are unavailable to non-union workers and the employer will have a smaller pool of candidates to choose from. This could limit the amount of education and experience that job candidates might possess.
While members traditionally enjoy higher wages, that cost must be accounted for somewhere. Whether passed along to the customer as higher prices on goods or services, made up for by hiring fewer workers or limiting the wages of non-union employees, the increased cost of union workers has an effect on a company’s economics. Prohibitive labor cost could also lead companies to seek alternative options to hiring more workers–automation and off-shoring of jobs are possible solutions to increased pay rates.
Unions have the ability to create work slowdowns or stoppages in the case of strikes. Individual, non-union workers do not have these tools at their disposal so they are put in a position of less power in the workplace. This gives union members an unfair advantage as a strike by a single worker would not be very effective. It can also have an adverse affect on the country if the strike affects fields dealing with public health or safety.
Union agreements generally tend to run for three years, the Library of Economics and Liberty points out that union members might miss opportunities present during boom times of which their non-union co-workers could take advantage. An individual worker could negotiate a wage increase during an annual evaluation while union members must wait out the terms of the agreement.
Well that’s my rant..thanks for letting me expound.
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By: Craig on March 7, 2011
at 5:16 PM
So long tammyharper or should I say, Tex?
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By: No one's puppet on March 7, 2011
at 4:44 PM
OMG look at all the comments from me without my avatar. There is some black magic going on here.
Actually my son thinks I’m a genius, but, in all modesty, I must demur.
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By: jsri on March 7, 2011
at 4:21 PM
I don’t know it but my son thinks I’m an asshole.
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By: jsri on March 7, 2011
at 4:13 PM
And lets talk about trolling. No one’s puppet telling lie after lie, baiting me over and over again, and no harm no foul. Of course she is one of the regulars so she is not bound by the same rules as everyone else.
Never shared one harsh word with Cynthia, yet she felt the need to be demeaning and condescending. No problem, a board regular.
lori, a straight up hypocrit, but that is cool, board regular and all.
cryptoclearance, JeanΔ ¥, the boards sniper team always on the ready to interject on behalf of the more regular thug grunts.
I’ve proven my point so I will do what you cannot, go back to posting on people’s ideas and leave the petty personal attacks to you all. Just note you only strengthen my resolve to stay. But by all means keep showing people your true colors. Avoid the truth, personally attack anyone who refuses to fall in line and agree with you. Who knew the democrat base’s MO was bullying. Anyways kids, time to get out of the mud and for the rare intellectual post/response.
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By: tammyharper on March 7, 2011
at 4:12 PM
tammyharper,
“The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent.”
tammyharper, I will not go down the right wing rabbit hole with you. IMO, it is sadly lacking facts, figures, truth or logic. Up is down, black is white, lies are truth, fiction is fact. It is a f*cking insane world.
IMO, I have used humor, it may dark or sarcastic but I never come after you with my “claws” out nor will I.
This game is over for me; it has become a sad, sick game.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 7, 2011
at 4:07 PM
jsri, I understand there are some people, maybe you included, who like down and take their beating. I gave these thugs chance after chance to have a civilized talk. That just isn’t how this boards swat team operates.
Is this English?
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By: jsri on March 7, 2011
at 4:04 PM
Another episode of ‘Pot Calls Kettle Black’… Is it a rerun? Seems like I’ve seen it before, and it wasn’t that good the first time. Isn’t there a sequel? Was it ‘You Attacked Me First’? At least ‘Your So Stupid to Waste Time Here’ had irony going for it, even if the grammar was off.
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By: delurkergurl on March 7, 2011
at 3:56 PM
jsri, I understand there are some people, maybe you included, who like down and take their beating. I gave these thugs chance after chance to have a civilized talk. That just isn’t how this boards swat team operates.
Ding Ding Ding. The proof that backs up whats been said about this board all along.
lori Sooooo if that is the case… why do you hang around us dolts? Thank you lori, almost exactly on que. I had considered leaving but I am getting a little satisfaction proving other posters right about the nature of this board. You do the democrat party a great injustice conducting yourselves this way. The only thing you accomplish is showing a neon sign that you are a group of intolerant, spiteful and ignorant people.
Again kudos to your tactic. I give a little back, and lori is limping all injured and crying foul. a-maz-ing. One well oiled machine.
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By: tammyharper on March 7, 2011
at 3:53 PM
Nunya:
I’ll see YOU tomorrow at Activities time again! Whoopie!
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By: jsri on March 7, 2011
at 3:52 PM
jsri:
Nope. Have you changed your depends today?
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By: jsri on March 7, 2011
at 3:47 PM
Nunya:
You haven’t put the Thunderbird away yet?
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By: jsri on March 7, 2011
at 3:43 PM
Monkey pile! Everybody in the pool-aid!
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By: Nunya on March 7, 2011
at 3:32 PM
I’ve heard that some trolls are paid for their nastiness. “Tammy”, whoever that actually is, must be making some big bucks.
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By: elsie09 on March 7, 2011
at 3:23 PM
Well good then tammy you have it all figured out..
Sooooo if that is the case… why do you hang around us dolts? Wouldn’t it be much more intellectually simulating for you to find another blog to share your vast worldly knowledge with instead of wasting your precious time making up names and personas here? Wouldn’t it be much more challenging for you to spar with others that are of equal intellegence????
Honestly, I could give two figs if you post here or not..Not my blog not my rules. Your opinion matters not to me. Nor does your opinion of me. Seriously, your insults are wasted. The only people’s opinion of me that matters is those of whom I respect. So just save your school yard taunts they ain’t workin.
Everyone here knows your opinions. Lord knows you have shared them enough, most don’t agree with you.
So now you have a choice, find people on another blog who do agree and move on, or shut up and take what comes your way on this blog. But whatever you do STOP whinning! Good heavens woman you are exhausting!
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By: lori on March 7, 2011
at 3:17 PM
I have no intention of leaving. I love it too much.
But you seem to have a fixation on the word hate. I’d guess it is an ingrained feature of your personality.
You certainly make a hypocrite of yourself with your latest posting.
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By: jsri on March 7, 2011
at 3:12 PM
jsri, if you hate it here we have an open door policy in this country, you can leave whenever you like.
lori, seriously. Why do people attack others personally? Well often is the case is as it is with you that they lack the information, honesty, and ability to argue on the subject matter, so they attack the person instead in an attempt to distract from their ignorance. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t fault you and others like you, I am sure you are doing the best you can with the limited ability and resources at your disposal.
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By: tammyharper on March 7, 2011
at 2:47 PM
tammyharper on March 7, 2011 at 12:25 PM
Instead of chest thumping jingoism perhaps it is time to look at some survey figures.
Last week’s TIME mag had the following:
Prosperity Index
1. Norway.
10. USA (down from #1 in 2007)
Higher educ enrollment
1. South Korea
6. USA
R&D Development spending
1. Germany
11. USA
Life Expectancy
1. Japan
27. USA
Yrs secondary ED/worker
1. Slovakia
27. USA
Perception that hard work gets you ahead
1. Cambodia
28. USA
Standard of living Satisfaction
1. Denmark
28. USA
Food & Shelter
1. Denmark
31. USA
Savings Rate
1. Kuwait
84. USA
Job Optimism
1. Norway
86. USA
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By: jsri on March 7, 2011
at 2:17 PM
Nunya:
Time to put the Thunderbird away.
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By: Anonymous on March 7, 2011
at 1:50 PM
Omggggg the whine is a flowin! Whine whine whine…. buttercup, suck it up!
If you can’t stand the heat get out of the f8888888888888 kitchen for heavens sake!
Seriously ……
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By: lori on March 7, 2011
at 1:42 PM
Hahaha. You read my mind. I almost referred to Ms. Peas as Ms. Beck!
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By: Nunya on March 7, 2011
at 1:10 PM
In the interest of being “fair and balanced” it only right that we give Glenn Beck a chance to do a rebuttal. Go Glenn—-
ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbjjTLVrkKA
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By: No one's puppet on March 7, 2011
at 1:03 PM
Pretty funny stuff 🙂
“Keep up the good work defending the porch.” Lol. Remember the Alamo! Raaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Hahaha.
“Tammy, you fail to understand the “war” that has been waged upon the middle class in this country as well as the war on women as a whole.” Hahaha. You don’t say! War? Oh my. Waged upon the middle class? And women as a whole? Oh dear. Hahahaha.
“It will be the law of the land, to invasively probe women prior to abortions.” Lol Oh heavens no! Not so long as the brave badasses here keep defending the porch! Lol.
Hahaha! Hear hear! Keep up the good work people!
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By: Nunya on March 7, 2011
at 12:47 PM
and Cynthia, let me bottom line it for you and your band of thugs since the obvious has seemed to elude you. Argue against my beliefs and ideology, because that is all I am offering up. Attacking me personally only shows how limited and uneducated you are. If you really want to know more about what shoes I have don’t be shy and just ask. Leave the catty bitch off the boards.
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By: tammyharper on March 7, 2011
at 12:32 PM
Dang Tammy, and we thought you’d particularly like Libya yourself.
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By: No one's puppet on March 7, 2011
at 12:30 PM
Cynthia, it is no wonder your party is having so many issues with people like you and your limited way of thinking. I truly feel bad for you that you live your life by assumption and cant be bothered with things like facts and the truth. What a sad and shallow existence.
I have traveled rather extensively. I spent all of January in Scotland. Think we have it bad? I put over $100 worth of diesel in a wee Golf and it didn’t even fill the tank. I know we live in the greatest nation this world has ever seen, and I won’t apologize for that belief. When something goes wrong anywhere in the world, who does everyone look to? Us! We give more money to help other countries than any other nation on the planet. It is not a prerequisite of greatness to be perfect. While we are not perfect we still have the best deal going on anywhere. If you are so ashamed of your country Cynthia, I will happily be the first to show you the door.
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By: tammyharper on March 7, 2011
at 12:25 PM
I was so concerned about margins I left out:
tammyharper aka Miss Patent Leather Mary Janes’
“There is no room for 17th century thinking in the 21st century. Unfortunately it is so ingrained with their religion and their way of life I don’t think it is fixable.”
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 7, 2011
at 12:14 PM
Mikat, you have made some unfounded assumptions like the rest of this broads protectorate. I do not watch Fox News, never have. Maybe where you come from you are not taught to stand up for yourself when a bully confronts you. I just had a different opinion than some of the people here and I was personally attacked for it.
I do not fail to see anything. I am middle class. I am working twice as hard today to make the same income I made 10 years ago. You are welcome to teach your kids anything you want. I will not teach mine to run and hide from their problems. I believe that if you are firm in your convictions, that you stand by them and defend them. They need to get back in there and do their jobs. Where else in this nation do you see others conduction this countries business this way?
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By: tammyharper on March 7, 2011
at 12:14 PM
It’s a Tea Party world…
…We just live in it!
Δ
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By: Whirled Peas Δ on March 7, 2011
at 12:13 PM
I had the same reaction as Jean to your above statements. Another American who believes America is superior all other countries and has yet to travel beyond it’s borders to learn how the rest of the world lives. I thought Jean was kind in her remarks. My daughter who spent much of her 20’s and 30’s traveling the world, backpacking off the beaten path would not. (Only after my first trip did I understand her severe criticism of me.)
In order to better understand you it would be very helpful if you would fill out the following questions. (Please check off or fill in any or all that apply.)
___ I have mental issues (in which case we will
leave you alone)
___ I am easily offended
___ I enjoy and search for reasons to be offended
___ I have a need to be a victim
___ I am perfecting my “Sarah Palin”
role for _____________
___ Sarah Palin IS my role model
___ I AM Sarah Palin
___ I am Bristol perfecting my
“Sarah Palin”
___ I am a bored teenager who was
grounded for ______________
___ I am a lazy/out of work ___ year old living
in my parent’s basement
___ I am troll
___ I am the intellectual side of
“an.00800lb gorilla”
___ I am the alternate ego of __________
___ I am a trouble maker
___ I get paid to be a troll/trouble maker
___ I am paid $____ for each reply
(I am helping!)
___ I need the money to __________
___ Other
Thank you.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 7, 2011
at 11:56 AM
File this under…
Don’t believe HALF of what you read:
WI Democrats to End Union Standoff.
and NONE of what you hear:
Limbaugh (et al) using actors to fake radio call-ins.
PEACE ~ Δ
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By: Whirled Peas Δ on March 7, 2011
at 11:56 AM
Hi all,
Glad you like my links. Keep up the good work defending the porch. 😉
~
And now…from the makers of ‘The Story of Stuff’:
The Story of Citizens United vs the FEC
PEACE ~ Δ
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By: Whirled Peas Δ on March 7, 2011
at 11:03 AM
Tammyharper this is dedicated to you, but everyone else can enjoy it too.
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/03/20113685813934602.html
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By: No one's puppet on March 7, 2011
at 10:57 AM
Lori, Jean, NOP, Alaska, Cynthia,Whirled, HRH, Crypto
I want to thank you. You say, eloquently, what I am too angry and tongue tied to say.
keep up the good work.
Tammy, you fail to understand the “war” that has been waged upon the middle class in this country as well as the war on women as a whole. Turn off fox and do a little more research, reading and listening. You might understand why we stand with the Wisconsin 14 and all those wonderful people braving the weather to stand up for their rights.
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By: Mikat on March 7, 2011
at 9:57 AM
My goodness Auntie Jean, your hate speech seems to be coming back to bite you. And who better to bring that up than tammy who said “If, like the rest of your gang of thugs, find that you can’t have a civilized conversation then how about keeping your bitter and spiteful speeches to yourself?”
Big OOPS!
You have been roundly chastised by a master (or is mistress) of hate.
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By: jsri on March 7, 2011
at 9:34 AM
Thanks, NOP. Powerful words there. Let’s hope that the American people take them to heart. I’m sick and tired of the top 2% richest elites in this country getting away with paying no taxes, while the rest of us struggle to keep our jobs, our homes, our teachers, our firefighters, our police and the rest of our economy from being savaged with funding cuts and financial shenanigans. Somehow, the big banks and financial houses just keep doing those multimillion dollar bonuses to their fat cats. That just adds the final insult to all this.
The “emergency” status in the Texas Legislature right now is to pass legislation that demands that a probe be inserted in the vagina of every pregnant girl and woman seeking a *legal* abortion. It is unimaginable to me that our state is missing something like 67 billion dollars needed to fund services here since the economy tanked, so teachers and police and firefighters must be laid off, and the damn legislature is pushing through draconian legislation to do internal probes on U.S. citizens. It will be the law of the land, to invasively probe women prior to abortions.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/04/texas-abortion-bill-that-_n_831287.html
http://www.ob-ultrasound.net/xvag.html
http://juanitajean.com/2011/03/05/help-somebody-get-government-out-of-my-vagina/
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By: elsie09 on March 7, 2011
at 9:08 AM
I think our little group here will find this quite provocative.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-moore/america-is-not-broke_b_832006.html
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By: No one's puppet on March 7, 2011
at 1:21 AM
JeanΔ ¥ –
Bwaahaha….(that’s me ROFLMAO).
Although I’m not sure Occam’s razor applies to either. Seems if we humans can mess something up through infinite and unnecessary complications, we leap to do so. Simplicity and logic have never been our strong suit.
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By: judith on March 6, 2011
at 10:32 PM
Whirled Peas – loved the cartoon & video! Thanks! Margaret & Helen, we could really use a new post.
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By: bq on March 6, 2011
at 9:46 PM
I should have warned you Jean, about the skunk crossing.
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By: No one's puppet on March 6, 2011
at 5:52 PM
Whirled Peas and Jean make me smile. Thanks for sharing here.
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By: elsie09 on March 6, 2011
at 5:38 PM
Dear Congenial Gang,
I humbly and profusely apologize if I have offended any of the fine people here on the porch with my point of view. I am just a simple soul, an addled old woman whose knowledge and experience do not extend very far beyond the kitchen and laundry room. I should have known better than to apply Occam’s principle to the complex interactions of interpersonal relationships as well as geo-political affairs.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 6, 2011
at 5:16 PM
Gov. Walker Reacts to the missing
14 Wisconsin Democratic State Senators
PEACE ~ Δ
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By: Whirled Peas Δ on March 6, 2011
at 4:43 PM
Some Sunday “funnies”:
The Far Left Side
.
TeaBaggee Protest Logic
PEACE ~ Δ
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By: Whirled Peas Δ on March 6, 2011
at 4:39 PM
I see JeanΔ ¥ has come out as a member of this boards regulars to drive out people who don’t think as she does. Your post seems to be of the same thought process as No one’s puppet, ie put words in my mouth I never said and make unfounded speculation through hate and insults. If, like the rest of your gang of thugs, find that you can’t have a civilized conversation then how about keeping your bitter and spiteful speeches to yourself?
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By: tammyharper on March 6, 2011
at 3:50 PM
Good Morning Congenial Gang,
I would like for Tammy Faye to please enlighten us and elaborate further on her discussion of March 5, 2011 at 5:24 PM regarding the ingrained religion and way of life of the people in the Middle East. She has not mentioned before that she is clairvoyant and thus able to divine such in millions of people half way around the world. For example, I did not know that Islam, Judiasm, Buddahism, Hinduism, Christianity, Atheism and Voodoo are all represented in one degree or another in many of those countries. Nor did I know that the way of life in the interior of those countries was homogeneous with the coastal regions, just as it is in ours.
I am curious to know if her vast travels throughout the entire domains were by magic carpet or was her broom sufficient.
I do know that the Arabs invented Algebra so I consider that a strike against them right there!
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 6, 2011
at 1:43 PM
Jean,
I think we should have listened to Charlie Wilson. Gee, a million or two would have been a real bargain!
“Al-Jazeera has been a leader in changing people’s minds and attitudes, Clinton told lawmakers Wednesday.”
Hillary Clinton’s Al Jazeera Comments Draw Attention Of U.S. Media
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/05/hillary-clintons-al-jazeera-us-media_n_831788.html
Americans should be informed not entertained.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 5, 2011
at 7:20 PM
I honestly am stumped when it comes with what to do about the middle east. There is no room for 17th century thinking in the 21st century. Unfortunately it is so ingrained with their religion and their way of life I don’t think it is fixable. This is one of those situations where I do not think that negation and diplomacy can do anything to make things better.
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By: tammyharper on March 5, 2011
at 5:24 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
Let’s see. Right now the saber-rattling hawks are agitating for a ‘No-Fly’ zone in Libya. I seem to remember, we been there, done that with Iraq after the first Gulf War
Ten some odd years later, unnumbered dead and maimed on both sides, a gazillion dollars gone into the coffers of the Military-Industrial Complex and our own economy in shambles, it’s time to send in a few cruise missiles followed up by lots and lots of fixed bayonets and M-16s. Might as well throw in Egypt, and/or the Sudan too.
Of course when the dust settles, those countries will just have to sort out their own political problems just as Iraq is doing now, but hey, we will have made the ‘World Safe for Democracy’ – again.
It is not often that I cite fiction to make my point. I prefer the studies of non-fiction in the hands of learned people much more versed than I am on the subject. However, this time I will make an exception.
If so many lives had not been lost, so many wounded and maimed for life and if so many billions had not been spent to conduct the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the whole scenario would be comical.
During the height of the Cold War in the fifties, there was a hilarious novel written by Leonard Wibberley entitled, “The Mouse that Roared”. A movie was made from it starring Peter Sellers. It is about “Grand Fenwick” a tiny fictional European Alpine duchy only three by five miles in size. It was on the brink of financial ruin. The government officials, in desperation, remembered the amount of money in the Marshall Plan the U.S. had invested in Germany and Japan to rebuild their economies after the destruction of World War II. So they decided that the best thing a country could do was to declare war on the U.S., be defeated and have the U.S. pour tons of money into it.
So they got a little boat and armed with longbows, sailed to the U.S. to invade, rowing their way up the Potomac. The only problem was; when they got there, a nuclear drill was going on and nobody was in sight to surrender to. Also most of politicians were out and about, too busy campaigning for the next election.
Through a series of flukes, they managed to get their hands on “The Bomb” and win the “War”. Now, who has to pony up foreign aid to whom? You can only imagine the diplomatic machinations that went on after that on both sides. Time was when the ‘losers’ paid the reparations.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 5, 2011
at 4:53 PM
Your a true piece of work No one’s puppet. Call me when your senility meds kick in and you argue a point I actually said instead of fabricating your information.
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By: tammyharper on March 5, 2011
at 2:53 PM
It is called free speech Tammy, get it all out, you’ll feel better, then you can return to whatever dark cabinet Glenn Beck keep his crazy in.
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By: No one's puppet on March 5, 2011
at 12:33 PM
ithout, as yoiu said, taking a look at history. Starting with the history of labor unionizing. MsHarper you would not have the benefits and wages you have and there would still be minors working if it were not for a labor movement.
Just because it was so, or was needed in the past does not necessary make it so today. By using your logic, we should still have slaves to this day.
Maybe state your “opinions” with some knowledge of the subject you are talking about instead of parroting things you “read” without more analysis.
What knowledge do you claim I lack? Furthermore how can you know what knowledge I do and do not possess? What am I parroting? I showed a post I thought was interesting and gave my perspective on it. Could you show me how my view is the same, word for word, as a parrot would be?
Tammy dear, it’s not what you have to say, it’s all the whining that goes with it. HRH sofia EQ,
What part of my opinion is “whining” in your humble opinion? I gave my point of view. How do you perceive whining in the written word?
And so the board swat attack continues, again kudos to your tactics, as more and more members of this elite group surface to defend what is theirs.
End of the day I guess we agree to disagree. Having morals as I do, I cannot with good conscious teach my kids to behave as these senators have done. It is either right to do, or not right to do, and should not depend on if it suits your need at the time. Do you tell your kids its wrong to steal, unless you really need it? They are getting paid to sit in another state, not doing their job they were elected to perform. I know I never elected an official to reside in another state for 2 or more weeks to avoid doing their duties. Those tax dollars are being stolen. Do you teach them that it is right to run away from your problems rather than to face them and deal with them? That is exactly what they have done. You use minor points of semantics to try and justify what they did. I am wrong because I used the word flee. Get out your thesaurus and chose what word fits when a person leaves the state rather than show up and fight for what they believe in as they were elected to do. My dictionary says the word flee fits rather well.
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By: tammyharper on March 5, 2011
at 12:25 PM
Bullshit. If the not-fleeing-the-state-to-avoid-voting-on-a-bill-that-they-don’t-like-representatives have been gone for 2 weeks and now everyone has had the chance to know what’s in the bill – why don’t they come back and vote on it?
Tammy – don’t take the personal attacks personally 🙂 It’s what they do around here. It has nothing to do with you.
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By: Nunya Bidness on March 5, 2011
at 12:23 PM
I think I’ve just been goosed.
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By: elsie09 on March 5, 2011
at 12:15 PM
That’s what it is, really? I was just fantasizing.
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By: No one's puppet on March 5, 2011
at 12:13 PM
Gee, NOP, I’m seeing a symbol to legalize marijuana…
isn’t that the shape of a marijuna leaf? and made to look like the flag?
Obviously, I need to elevate my thinking and look more closely for the patriotic goose!!
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By: elsie09 on March 5, 2011
at 12:08 PM
NOP ya know what it is. thanks!
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By: cryptoclearance on March 5, 2011
at 12:06 PM
should be ISP duh
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By: cryptoclearance on March 5, 2011
at 12:03 PM
Crypto, nice avatar; looks like a patriotic goose compared to Stephen Colbert’s eagle.
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By: No one's puppet on March 5, 2011
at 12:03 PM
my time and patience with sllllooooowwwww is nearly over. might be able to acrually get a higher speed INS. working on it.
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By: cryptoclearance on March 5, 2011
at 11:58 AM
Well, crypto, you’ve been a little busy this morning, Hon.
Carry on….
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By: elsie09 on March 5, 2011
at 11:50 AM
elsie09 – you beat me to it!!! slow connection taking too much time! thanks 🙂
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By: cryptoclearance on March 5, 2011
at 11:42 AM
>>do not understand all of this hostility. I have a difference of opinion, nothing more. I have not gone after any of your personally yet you chose to make it personal and attack me. I guess what was said about this board is true. Step out of line with a different opinion than the regulars and they come out in force to drive you away. Very nice tactic to your attacks. Make off handed comments, one by one, the rest sit silent till it is their turn then they contribute by putting words in my mouth I never said. Showing their support by not denouncing unwarranted assaults on the offenders. A very well oiled and practiced machine. It is a shame we cannot disagree in a civil manor. <<
sorry you are so paranoid. Maybe state your "opinions" with some knowledge of the subject you are talking about instead of parroting things you "read" without more analysis. LEARN THE REAL reason that the state is in a mess. It is unfortunate that peple watch and read about it and just agree. unfortunatel the very ones that buy the BS are the ones that are going to be and are being afftected the most. oh and I loved the "violence" in Madison on Fox noise!!! did you see the palm trees??? people are really stupid, sometimes.
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By: cryptoclearance on March 5, 2011
at 11:40 AM
Crypto, you reminded me of something that delurkergurl just posted on her own blog today at http://chatterclatter.wordpress.com
It needs to be cited here, too:
“Five Things Unions Have Done For All Americans”
http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/05/top-five-things-unions/
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By: elsie09 on March 5, 2011
at 11:40 AM
Tammy dear, it’s not what you have to say, it’s all the whining that goes with it.
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By: HRH sofia EQ on March 5, 2011
at 11:38 AM
>Tammy instead of haranguing us about the righteousness of the Republicans and the rich cats, why don’t you read some history circa 1900-1920s? Is that the America, you want back?<
It is unfortunate that people just keep listening/reading without, as yoiu said, taking a look at history. Starting with the history of labor unionizing. MsHarper you would not have the benefits and wages you have and there would still be minors working if it were not for a labor movement. the 14 reps. did not FLEE, as whatever crap you are getting your sources from. AND WI is NOT in the can deficit wise because of the unions. Do we all have to spell that out too??????
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By: cryptoclearance on March 5, 2011
at 11:28 AM
>No, uh, no format required. Just thought. Just because the media called it fleeing doesn’t mean they fled. They bought time, for specific reasons, which are interesting and available should you decide to look into it.<
this is precisely what I mean. too bad you had to SPELL IT OUT. they just glean what they want to without further analyses…..
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By: cryptoclearance on March 5, 2011
at 11:12 AM
Ack…I meant “snowmachine”…not four wheeler…
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By: elsie09 on March 5, 2011
at 10:53 AM
Hey, Joe. I was awakened by a Corgi this morning. Just once, I’d rather it would have been by an eagle!
My buddy out near Bristol Bay in southwestern AK is low on snow this year; the temps fluctuate to above freezing even now and make for treacherous four-wheeler travel to the next village for supplies.
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By: elsie09 on March 5, 2011
at 10:52 AM
Those winds have been crazy. They have died down so I am heading outside. I have an eagle who woke me up this AM. We have had a crappy winter actually. Climate Change sucks!!!! Alaska is warming and that is not a good thing.
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By: JuneauJoe on March 5, 2011
at 10:47 AM
tammyharper, this one is for you.
The George Carlin perspective re: the economy.
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=159216125164&comments
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By: JuneauJoe on March 5, 2011
at 10:38 AM
Hey, JuneauJoe…those 70 and 90 MPH wind gusts give you fits this week? Good to see you back here.
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By: elsie09 on March 5, 2011
at 10:37 AM
Jon Stewart does a great job of explaining how the wealthiest are GODs but living wage people are demonized by the Republicans and FOX!
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-march-3-2011/crisis-in-the-dairyland—for-richer-and-poorer—teachers-and-wall-street
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By: JuneauJoe on March 5, 2011
at 10:25 AM
Tam, whatever!
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By: No one's puppet on March 5, 2011
at 10:20 AM
The Republicans are out to destroy the middle class! It is quite simple. The Koch brothers, and others, are funding the demise of unions and the middle class!
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/ed-schultz-economic-state-middle-class-tie
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By: JuneauJoe on March 5, 2011
at 10:20 AM
I do not understand all of this hostility. I have a difference of opinion, nothing more. I have not gone after any of your personally yet you chose to make it personal and attack me. I guess what was said about this board is true. Step out of line with a different opinion than the regulars and they come out in force to drive you away. Very nice tactic to your attacks. Make off handed comments, one by one, the rest sit silent till it is their turn then they contribute by putting words in my mouth I never said. Showing their support by not denouncing unwarranted assaults on the offenders. A very well oiled and practiced machine. It is a shame we cannot disagree in a civil manor.
I find you to be amazingly short sited lori. If it is not right for one group then it probably isn’t right for another. This is not how civilized politicians should conduct themselves, I bet the rest of the world is getting a good laugh at our expense. Do you teach your kids when they disagree with their friends to run and hide rather than talk and work it out? I also reject that any party aside from the communists, nazi and the like are out to destroy the citizens of this nation. To suggest that tells me you are very out of touch and so blinded by hate you cannot look objectively at anything but that which falls into your realm of personal beliefs.
To be able to make valid points I think you first have to be able to say I understand my opposition. Many like you do not try to understand, you hate and try to crush them out of existence. We are supposed to be a free nation where different ways of thinking are supposed to be not only allowed but encouraged. You do not have conversations with your opponent, you insult them and attack them. You are not open to compromise, you will only settle for the complete and utter defeat of your foe.
There are a lot friendlier places I can go and spend my time. If your desire is to have me leave then keep making personal attacks. If we cannot remain civil and discuss our points of view I will be more than happy to find another place to be.
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By: tammyharper on March 5, 2011
at 9:52 AM
tammyharper,
I stand corrected!
“should all of our elected officials at every level chose to conduct themselves in this manner” AND “This is how civilized adults conduct our countries business?”
I endeavored to articulate my inadequate retort to the above statements you opined.
But I received a revelation………..WTF am I doing this? She is very capable to understand your remark if she just looked at what is going on in Washington and Wisconsin.
May I respectfully submit, Miss Tammy, leaving your pretty, shiny, little Patent Leather Mary Janes’ at home and wearing your Wellies when you come here?
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 5, 2011
at 9:10 AM
I am sickened by the efforts of the Republican’s to end collective bargaining under the guise of budget reduction.
Of course we know why they are doing it. If the republican party has any chance of success 10-15 years out they MUST destroy the unions. They read the same studies we have been looking at for a couple of years now. They know if they have any chance its now or never….. and so here they go….
Unions are among the top contributors to Democratic campaigns and left-of-center causes. 59 percent of union households voted for Obama as compared to 51 who did not. In a nation as closely divided as ours 8 percentage points means a WIN. Perhaps an even more critical point about the republican’s desire to crush the unions is their geographic location. States like Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Illinois, West Virginia are BIG union states. States the republicans need solidly in their column in years to come. With the demographic projections of 2015-2020 and the republican’s attitudes towards “brown skinned people” it was likely, states with a high Spanish speaking communities that are now solid red, will drop like flies when immigration reform comes around. They need to make up the loss. What better way then to cut off the democratic life line? Union money and man power in critical midwestern states.
The other reason unions are “in the cross hairs” of republicans is their continued quest to destroy the middle class. Kill two birds with one stone so to speak. As if we have not already become a country of have and have not’s! This will be the final nail in the coffin. “Keep em dumb (misinformed) and poor” is their mantra. Fox “News” Rushbo are doing their part now the governors will do the rest.
We are seeing a glimpse of the America “they want back”. That would be the America where women have no rights and blacks were put in their place. An America where a man worked all day in a Steel mill for a dollar a day. Black lung be damned! An America where white men owned all banks and doled their riches out to the masses, or not……………….
Hell yes I’m proud of my fellow democrats in WI and I hope Ohio does the same! We must speak truth to power and if civil disobedience is going to draw attention to the republicans agenda so be it! IWe all have to flood the streets and for the sake of the middle class. Speak up, dig deep, call your state and fed congressman, ring their phones off the hook and TELL them to save the middle class! Fight like hell friends…… nothing worth having is easy. Our future depends on it.
namaste……
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By: lori on March 5, 2011
at 7:28 AM
It looks like Noah is using a new pseudonym.
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By: elsie09 on March 4, 2011
at 11:02 PM
Dear Margaret and Helen,
I miss reading your take on the state of our country. I hope you are okay and just taking a break. I will keep checking back. Thank you so much for who you are and what you do.
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By: Loretta on March 4, 2011
at 10:19 PM
Cynthia, I am sure in your mind you can reference your train of thought and make sense of your question. However with the frame of reference you have provided I don’t know how to respond.
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By: tammyharper on March 4, 2011
at 10:06 PM
tammyharper –
“I am astounded you are all ok with this. Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue should all of our elected officials at every level chose to conduct themselves in this manner. Is this really what we are becoming? This is how civilized adults conduct our countries business? Sorry people, I think this kind of conduct is inexcusable, we are better than this.”
Tammy my dear, where the hell have you been for the last two years? The last couple of weeks?
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 4, 2011
at 9:46 PM
Not that we can have a conversation No one’s puppet, but you show your true colors yet again. I never once mentioned the Republicans or gave any opinions on them or your so called rich cats. Argue honestly or not at all.
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By: tammyharper on March 4, 2011
at 9:27 PM
Tammy instead of haranguing us about the righteousness of the Republicans and the rich cats, why don’t you read some history circa 1900-1920s? Is that the America, you want back?
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By: No one's puppet on March 4, 2011
at 9:09 PM
tammyharper,
My short answer: YES, YES, YES!
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 4, 2011
at 8:51 PM
I am astounded you are all ok with this. Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue should all of our elected officials at every level chose to conduct themselves in this manner. Is this really what we are becoming? This is how civilized adults conduct our countries business? Sorry people, I think this kind of conduct is inexcusable, we are better than this.
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By: tammyharper on March 4, 2011
at 8:45 PM
Pfesser,
“Y’know, that’s how democracy works. If you have the votes, it passes; if you do not, it fails.”
Correct, majority rules. Does it give the majority the right to misuse their marjority power? The “winner takes all” attitude may work well in the school yard but is it in the common interest of a society, democracy or a republic?
“shoved down the throats of the 70% of Americans who did not want it”.
Obamacare – Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act – is bad piece of legislation. America should be able to do better than this. Perhaps if everyone had come to the table with the intent of writing a positive bill and not playing politics we would have had a good plan.
“70% of Americans who did not want it.” So it is said.
Of the 70%:
Some had a legitimate complaint
Some had absolutely no idea what was in it; just misinformed by those with an agenda
Some thought it did not go far enough
Some wanted single payer
Some who did not want change because they have super great insurance……until they needed to use it
None of the above
An insurance company is a middleman, a banker or a payer…nothing more.
“heh, heh – Tea Party folks have these Dems in their metaphorical crosshairs and will deal with them in the *next* election.”
Not all Tea Party people are misinformed, low information voters who will follow anyone who leads even over a cliff. Some are independent thinking, intelligent voters who may join forces with those Americans who are now realizing the consequences of not being informed or not voting. We may find it is not just the Dems who are in the crosshairs. heh, heh, heh!
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 4, 2011
at 8:31 PM
Mellow out hon, have another Seven and Seven!
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By: No one's puppet on March 4, 2011
at 8:30 PM
No, uh, no format required. Just thought. Just because the media called it fleeing doesn’t mean they fled. They bought time, for specific reasons, which are interesting and available should you decide to look into it.
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By: delurkergurl on March 4, 2011
at 8:28 PM
I read the article…I even posted it on here saying that it was interesting, thus again the implication that I read it. Here is a quote.
“The 14 Democratic senators escaped to Illinois two weeks ago to avoid voting on Gov. Scott Walker’s proposal”
And another
“All fourteen of us remain in Illinois, very strong in our convictions,” Sen. Jon Erpenbach said in a statement.”
My understanding is that none of them live in Illinois. If they live in Wisconsin, and they are in Illinois, then they did indeed flee the state. Since I have done my research, again, I will repeat my question. Are you all really ok with these 14 Democratic senators fleeing the state to avoid a vote?
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By: tammyharper on March 4, 2011
at 8:12 PM
I was not aware that I was required to follow a certain format to how I asked my question. Please enlighten me to what you feel is how i am required to ask my question.
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By: tammyharper on March 4, 2011
at 7:41 PM
PLEASE do some research and apply critical thinking before wording your “question” that way. It sure isn’t that simple. You mimght even come up with an informed answer yourself.
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By: cryptoclearance on March 4, 2011
at 7:33 PM
So I just want to make sure I understand this…you are all ok with them fleeing to another state to avoid a vote?
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By: tammyharper on March 4, 2011
at 7:29 PM
Great post, Cynthia. As usual!
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By: delurkergurl on March 4, 2011
at 7:18 PM
It is my understanding the 14 Dems did not “run away” to avoid voting but to buy time for the citizens of Wisconsin to learn what was in the bill. There is no filibuster rule in their state senate. Walker wanted the repair bill railroaded through before anyone had time to check it out. There are a number of important issues in this bill not only “collective bargining”. Issues that Walker failed to mentioned while campaigning. As Wisconsin learns the contents; some are very concerned of the effect it will have on them or their state.
IMO, the 14 Dems took a stand for those who elected them; also for those who did not. Are the Republicans standing up for the citizens who elected them OR for the ones who bought and paid for them?
I think you can see who Walker is working for from his phone call with “David Koch”. It is a good thing it was a phone call.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 4, 2011
at 7:10 PM
The people who elected them are getting what they elected these officials to do – protect them from outrageous abuses of power, among other things. Unlike the Republican tactics like obstructing confirmation of judges they don’t even have an objection to.
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By: delurkergurl on March 4, 2011
at 6:33 PM
Guess I am one of those silly people who expects our public officials to show up to do the work we are paying them for. What an odd concept that would be.
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By: tammyharper on March 4, 2011
at 6:02 PM
Not like Fox News, fair and balanced and all.
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By: No one's puppet on March 4, 2011
at 5:52 PM
Gosh I’m sorry NOP… I lost my head there for a minute. 😉
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By: lori on March 4, 2011
at 5:37 PM
Yeah Lori, NEWON DAILY NEWS, of Jasper County, Iowa, a well known baston liberal thought, what were you thinking?
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By: No one's puppet on March 4, 2011
at 5:31 PM
NO I’m fresh out Tammy but I bet if you googled you could find all the articles you want that would suit your taste!
Give it a go.. 😉
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By: lori on March 4, 2011
at 5:13 PM
That is a pretty slanted article lori. Happen to have any honest, objective news source without all the political bias?
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By: tammyharper on March 4, 2011
at 5:05 PM
Here ya go Auntie jean….
http://www.newtondailynews.com/articles/2011/03/03/r_x_0muxzkr9o2dsmsh50ivw/index.xml
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By: lori on March 4, 2011
at 4:24 PM
“Gosh, I just meant you seem to share a lot of the same opinions? Paranoid much?”
Yeah, right.
If you have anything personal you’d like to discuss, pfesser53 at gmail dot com.
Onward.
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By: PFesser on March 4, 2011
at 3:10 PM
Gosh, I just meant you seem to share a lot of the same opinions? Paranoid much?
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By: No one's puppet on March 4, 2011
at 2:53 PM
“You know PFessor and TammyHarper, it kind of like the two of you have this psychic connection, know what I mean?
No. Don’t be a catty pussy. If you have something to say, spit it out.
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By: PFesser on March 4, 2011
at 2:36 PM
By that I mean, 1) did they leave the state so as to intentionally paralyze the legislative process 2) if so, how long were they gone, and were they successful?
But no matter. We are a nation of laws, not of men, as the old saw goes. We agreed to a set of rules about how the govt was to conduct its business and everything hinges on following those rules. When the ReBiblicans were seeking to de-legitimize the Obama presidency I told all my conservative friends: We agree in this country to abide by the results of elections; whether you like it or not, he IS the president. Period.
This is the same thing IMHO. The way you do business is that you agree to the rules and set them down in writing and you call that the Constitution, be it state or federal. Then you abide by them, whether you to win or lose. If the ReBiblicans do it, is is wrong. Ditto the Dems in Wisconsin. I believe they are clearly in the wrong.
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By: PFesser on March 4, 2011
at 2:33 PM
You know PFessor and TammyHarper, it kind of like the two of you have this psychic connection, know what I mean?
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By: No one's puppet on March 4, 2011
at 2:29 PM
NOP –
Which state was that in?
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By: PFesser on March 4, 2011
at 2:21 PM
PFessor and Tammy, you mean like the time a few years ago when the House of Representatives’ Republicans went out on the steps to give a news conference instead of vote on a bill?
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By: No one's puppet on March 4, 2011
at 2:16 PM
I agree PFesser. It is a sad state of affairs when our elected officials chose to cross state lines rather than do their job. I wonder what the reaction would have been if Republicans fled their states when it came time to vote on Obama’s medical legislation?
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By: tammyharper on March 4, 2011
at 1:28 PM
Awesome, Peas.
That was frickin’ Awesome!
I loves me the disconnect.
Good thing we got it on tape.
😉
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By: poolman on March 4, 2011
at 12:00 PM
From The Daily Show:
Crisis in the Dairyland – For Richer and Poorer
PEACE ~ Δ
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By: Whirled Peas Δ on March 4, 2011
at 11:42 AM
“Senate Republicans Thursday ordered the arrest of their 14 Democratic colleagues, who fled the state two weeks ago to avoid a vote on Gov. Scott Walker’s controversial budget repair bill…..”
“Here’s the statement by these defenders of civil liberties and democracy:
Politics aside, encouraging the forcible detention of duly elected lawmakers because they won’t allow you to dictate with a free hand is an unreasonable abuse of police power,” said WPPA Executive Director Jim Palmer. “Due to the fact that Wisconsin officers lack any jurisdiction across state lines, does Senator Fitzgerald intend to establish a ‘lawmaker border patrol? The thought of using law enforcement officers to exercise force in order to achieve a political objective is insanely wrong and Wisconsin sorely needs reasonable solutions and not potentially dangerous political theatrics.”
http://crooksandliars.com/
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 4, 2011
at 11:12 AM
tammyharper –
Very interesting article. I sometimes marvel at the irony of those who have no compunctions about the Republican’s having sat in Congress and watched Obamacare shoved down the throats of the 70% of Americans who did not want it – because the Republicans did not have the votes to stop it – yet believe it is perfectly fine for the Wisconsin Democrats to run and hide rather than have legislation passed with which they disagree.
Y’know, that’s how democracy works. If you have the votes, it passes; if you do not, it fails. Running away thwarts the very principles upon which the country is founded. I believe the “no factor” – heh, heh – Tea Party folks have these Dems in their metaphorical crosshairs and will deal with them in the *next* election. That is, unless they are arrested and forced to perp-walk back into the Legislature. That should make a good campaign ad…
Speaking of perp-walks: If you can get your hands on Frank Bailey’s book about Sarah Palin, by all means do so. Having spent nearly all of Snowdrift Snooki’s political career as her de facto chief of staff, he details his gradual disillusionment as she falls from a well-motivated, principled mom into the depths of impropriety as a vicious, get-even-at-all-costs Alaskan politician. Probably the best part of the book is how he details his own descent into hell as her number-one henchman, followed by his redemption after he finally resigns in total disillusionment. Not generally available except as bootlegged on the Internet.
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By: PFesser on March 4, 2011
at 8:16 AM
Shash –
I have a nephew who is a systems analyst for a large insurance company in Cleveland. He said his most amazing moment was when he realized they had an entire floor of cubicles devoted to denying claims. He subsequently found out first hand, when he tried to submit a claim for his wife’s illness.
Having practiced thirty years as a medical doctor, I can tell you without equivocation that Obamacare is one giant abortion and should be treated as such, but after that is repealed we need to start over and enact serious health care reform – and I mean *right now*, probably starting with putting a tight collar on crooked insurance companies, followed by crooked lawyers and terminating with crooked doctors. I’m not taking pot-shots from the sidelines; I see it every day of my life.
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By: PFesser on March 4, 2011
at 6:51 AM
Auntie Jean,
Is it this one? It is the most recent that I could find.
http://blog.cagle.com/2011/02/wisconsin-government-in-cash-we-trust-but-unions-we-bust/
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By: poolman on March 3, 2011
at 6:06 PM
PFesser,
In my experience, the poster child is Great Western of MO., but I know several people who swear it is Kaiser.
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By: Shash on March 3, 2011
at 5:14 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
One of my favorite columnists and political commentators has done it again. Help! Once more, jsri, poolman, delurkergurl or any of you computer whizzes, could you please find this out there in cyberspace and post a link to it for me? Gene Lyon’s “Going after public employees? Really?”
This Wisconsin governor obviously doesn’t know his ass from his elbow and what’s worse, even he doesn’t know it. I suppose some progressives feel like we should sit back and let the GOP/t-baggers self-destruct as far as 2012 goes. But they can do an awful lot of damage in the year-and-a half+ interim. Let’s don’t forget the mountain of disasters accumulated in the years of Bush, Inc.
There is so much more at stake than merely winning or losing elections! Little things, such as people’s livelihoods, public education and public safety. Aren’t those some of the primary responsibility of any elected official in a position of power?
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 3, 2011
at 5:11 PM
Interesting article.
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/03/wisconsin-senate-may-order-police-to-bring-back-democrats/?ncid=webmail
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By: tammyharper on March 3, 2011
at 4:14 PM
Craig –
re: westboro.
I quote the estimable Larry Flynt: “If the First Amendment will protect a scumbag like me, it will protect all of you.”
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By: PFesser on March 3, 2011
at 3:35 PM
I don’t know why you can’t post anything about them Craig, but you probably don’t have to, we all know how the Supreme Court ruled, and none of us are too happy about it.
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By: No one's puppet on March 3, 2011
at 1:41 PM
Cant post anything about westboro and my dislike for their tactics and the supreme court ruling.
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By: Craig on March 3, 2011
at 12:34 PM
I know this is off-topic, but I just had to share it with my friends. Sent to me from my cousin, a colonel-and-pilot in the Air Guard:
The Woman Marine Pilot
The teacher gave her fifth grade class an assignment: Get their parents to tell them a story with a moral at the end of it. The next day, the kids came back and, one by one, began to tell their stories.
There were all the regular types of stuff: spilled milk and pennies saved. But then the teacher realized, much to her dismay, that only Janie was left.
“Janie, do you have a story to share?”
‘Yes ma’am. My daddy told me a story about my Mommy. She was a Marine pilot in Desert Storm, and her plane got hit. She had to bail out over enemy territory, and all she had was a flask of whiskey, a pistol, and a survival knife..
She drank the whiskey on the way down so the bottle wouldn’t break, and then her parachute landed her right in the middle of 20 Iraqi troops. She shot 15 of them with the pistol, until she ran out of bullets, killed four more with the knife, till the blade broke, and then she killed the last Iraqi with her bare hands.”
”Good Heavens,’ said the horrified teacher. What did your Daddy tell you was the moral to this horrible story?”
“Don’t mess with Mommy when she’s been drinking.”
I love these touching stories!
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By: PFesser on March 3, 2011
at 9:03 AM
I think I’ve been banished from posting..Could not get on last night and again this am..
Will be surprised to see if I get on.
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By: Craig on March 3, 2011
at 8:24 AM
HRH sofia –
I was kidding you about your friend’s birth control; it just reminded me of that kid from WV.
I will say this: there is *definitely* something wrong with that scenario. In those days we prescribed the very high-dose (and later shown to be dangerous) BCPs – failure rate was vanishingly close to zero if you took them correctly. To have that and two other methods fail is of course not impossible, but close enough that you need to be searching for something other than failure in the method. I’d bet there was most likely some other problem going on behind the scenes.
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By: PFesser on March 3, 2011
at 7:26 AM
NOP
I think it was the Army’s idea of birth control. I’d be damned if I had another child while in the Army; we were in for just two years.
I also think it was the attitude toward child birth. Women were given little information or control over birthing; doctors treated as a disease that only they could cure.
I was there for my daughter’s first child. Midwives at a hospital; she had very personal care in 1999.
I didn’t think too much of the next two births with civilian doctors. My personal preference would be a “Baby Store”. Third child I was not going to the hospital any sooner than necessary. I had labor off and on through the night; around 5 am I decided today was the day and told my husband. He was ready to drive me right then and there but I rolled over and went back to sleep. Around 3pm he was having a hugh panic attack over the whole thing so off I went.
Again little TLC in labor room. Some time after 6:30pm I had one bearing down contraction like I never felt before. I told the nurse I think the baby is coming. She said Now Mrs. Smith you can’t rush these things, you must be patient, it takes time. Now this is my third time at this so I think I have some idea and was at this for more than enough time IMO. Asked the nurse to please look because if it is not the baby coming then I am about to loose my bottem half. From her expression I knew my bottom was safe.
I heard her yell get the doctor NOW. Not another pain came. 90 miles an hour down the hallway we went, slid over to the delivery table, one leg this way, one leg the other way. Looked at the mirror over head, Yippy baby time!
Why wouldn’t they listen to the mother?
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By: Cynthia on March 3, 2011
at 7:15 AM
Mageen –
Blue Cross – I could write a book on Blue Cross/Anthem from both sides of the equation. They, in my experience, are crooks and liars from the word go. Their rates are high and they use every means at their disposal to avoid paying claims – mostly through fatigue. Calls are never returned, the representatives claim there is no record of your previous call, you have to start over. They pre-approved expensive medical equipment for my son and then tried to renege and say it was ‘not approved’ after we had bought it. My wife spent probably 20 hours on the phone with them over three months’ time and they finally sent us a check for a little over half. (I just realized – you are in Virginia, too, aren’t you?) We ended up filing a complaint with the State Attorney General’s office and the Insurance Commissioner. Good luck to you.
If there were ever a poster child for the Public Option, it is Blue Cross/Anthem.
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By: PFesser on March 3, 2011
at 7:15 AM
Mikat –
“When I stood there, raised my hand and took an oath to protect my country, there was no force involved. ”
Present company excepted, then. I have the unfortunate advantage of having known many – and I mean many – during Vietnam who were drafted and did NOT want to be there, and more than several of them who were killed. The point still stands – the govt can and *will* control your body, unto the point of death if it deems it necessary, so the argument, my body – my business, won’t fly. Govt does this through the expedient of force, which is why it is so very important that those of us who believe the choice to should stand within ourselves should work and hang together, (or surely we shall hang separately, as Franklin said).
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By: PFesser on March 3, 2011
at 7:06 AM
Ugh! That’s all I can say Cynthia. I was having my first two babies about the same time and had civilian doctor and hospital. My doctor allowed his patients a fifteen pound weight gain, he could only enforce this with a lecture of course, but on the weeks I gained too much I be reduced to tears. I never did change my eating habits however, even so I never exceeded a fifteen pound wight gain. So I can relate to that part of your experience, but not the rest. I wonder, if things have changed, so far as I can see now, due to our all volunteer force. The military is a lot smaller now than it was during the Korean War (Jean’s experience) and Viet Nam (your time period); is it possible there were doctor shortages stateside at the time? When we lived in Virginia we went to a Tricare Clinic in our town, all of the doctors there were civilians. I had some tests, referrals, and outpatient surgery at Walter Reed and Bethesda Naval Hospital. I preferred Bethesda, mainly because the parking garage is four or five times larger. The doctors there and other personnel were military or volunteer I believe.
For the last year, we’ve been patients at the base clinic at a Air Force base, some of the doctors are military, some civilian, and the clinic also has residents. My particular doctor is a civilian, but the first time we went to the doctor, hubby and I both saw a military doctor, both of us were referred to a eye surgeon, in my case, he referred me to renown cosmetic eye surgeon in the city, because she had two extra years of training than the base eye surgeon and she specialized in the surgery I needed.
I am not at all disputing anything anyone here has reported about their military medical care, but I am suggesting the doctor patient ratio apparently is quite different than it used to be. Naturally that would definitely affect the extent of care. And of course, we probably all recall news reports on how fortunate it was that Rep. Gabrielle Giffords was treated by former military neurosurgeons, who had recently served in Iraq as they were the most qualified to treat her particular type of head wound.
The only time I have ever took a number and waited is for lab work, the pharmacy, and when I go for an annual flu shot. Those in uniform are allowed to jump the line, they also get priority at the commissary, and I’m good with that. Rank has nothing to do with it, though.
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By: No one's puppet on March 2, 2011
at 11:53 PM
1965, Army, Oklahoma, 2nd Lt. wife, 1st child
You lined up for everything, weighing, vitamins, exam.
You were only allowed to gain 18lbs total or they would put you in the hospital until you lost it, so I barely ate for a week once.
If you had questions, of course I did, ask the nurse; she said ask the doctor but not during the exam. Hard to converse in that position and he was out the door before you could get your knees together.
They wasted no TLC during labor. A perverted cleaning lady would give you a rectal during a contraction but would never explain what or why or even say hello. They strapped your hands down on the delivery table. I guess it was shift change and the afterbirth was not fast enough for the doctor so he wrapped the cord around his hand; put his foot on the end of the table and pulled. I had a saddle block but felt a burning sensation. This caused a heavy flow for a time; I was told “not a problem” at my check up. Fortunately we didn’t get into the officers club when all hell broke loose and soaked everything. Front seat of the car was never quite the same or the shoes.
The room was dorm style – enlisted men’s wives on one side; officers wives the other. I thought she was just being nice as I was having a bit of a problem until I realized the enlisted wives were waiting on the officers wives. So the next day I waited on a newly delivered enlisted wife. A Major’s wife asked me to get her something; I told her to get it herself she delivered two days earlier. By the time I left they were helping each other.
You made every feeding. You had to walk down the hallway to get your baby and bring her back to your bed to feed then take her back.
Well baby checks were six weeks, three months, six months and 1 year. So I went to a civilian doctor as well.
The best I can say is she only cost $5.25 and that was for my meals.
However, I can say my dog super super vet care!
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on March 2, 2011
at 10:12 PM
Poolman, my husband wasn’t an officer, he retired as a Master Sargent. He tells me his entire family have always had good medical care. I did say, my cost is zip, but I do pay for Medicare, yeah I’m that old. Of course we all know, some doctors are better than others and some of them suit us better personality wise, but just like you I have the option of requesting another doctor. Should we ever get universal health care in this country, I certainly hope that will remain the case for everyone.
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By: No one's puppet on March 2, 2011
at 8:32 PM
Well, I had posted earlier that according to military doctors I was menopause. This was back in 1964. So, gf went to clinic at one of the Navy bases in VA – she knows she is preggers. Guess what she was told – since she is 45 it must be menopause. We had a good laugh when she told me this. Seems that when it comes to pre-natal care the military has not quite caught up with the times.
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By: Kelly on March 2, 2011
at 5:32 PM
No one’s puppet, I assume your husband was an officer. It really does operate similar to a caste or class system in the military, like Jean claimed. The higher the rank, the better the treatment. I’m glad you got good care.
As a dependent, my care varied. At the age of 14, when I dislocated my elbow, I had 3 of the worst ones trying to reset it. Though it has served me well over the years, I still believe with a skilled physician I may not have the issues that I have with it and could have regained full range of motion. I also think the area that is numb would not be so, and I would not have spent 3 days in the ward.
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By: poolman on March 2, 2011
at 4:09 PM
I can’t say what prenatal care is like in the military, marriage to my military retiree came too late for that, but quite frankly since I’ve been going to a military clinic, I have been more than satisfied. Whenever something looked suspicious, extra tests have been ordered; if a doctor felt someone else, even a civilian specialist, had more experience than they did, I have been referred to that specialist. On only one occasion in six and a half years have I been kept waiting and even then the doctor’s nurse kept me updated on how far behind the doctor was running. My cost for this care, service, and all of my medications=zero. Hell yeah, I like universal health care.
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By: No one's puppet on March 2, 2011
at 2:24 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
jsri and poolman are oh, so right about the military culture. Here’s what I saw from personal experience back in the early ‘50’s. But from what I have heard and read, I understand it hasn’t changed one bit. It is self-perpetuating.
‘boy toy’ was in the AF for 5 years, three of which we were married. Yes, jsri, rank is EVERYTHING! ‘boy toy’ was a big deal 1st Lt., which is almost as far down on the officer rank totem pole as you can get. We were stationed at a huge SAC (Strategic Air Command) base in So Cal that had the reputation of being the ‘Country Club of the AF’. It was common knowledge that you were supposed to be constantly kissing up the chain-of-command, hoping to get promoted. Even the wives got into the act from my brief tenure in the ‘Officer’s Wives Club’. I couldn’t stomach it for long so I went out and got myself a civilian job. We needed the money!
The medical care on the base was absolutely the pits. Dependants, wives and children were unfortunate appendages. When I became pregnant, I visited it – once. No physical exam, just a short Q & A session. There was a big sign on the OB-GYN wall that said in big bold letters, “MAKE WAR! NOT LOVE!”
The waiting room was a long corridor with folding chairs along the wall. The patients never saw the same doctor twice but just waited his/her turn – all day sometimes. Hey, you could always come back the next day, right? But high-ranking male officers with hangnails could get right in immediately. All you had to do was glance at the insignia on the shoulders. There were NO female officers that I knew of.
‘boy toy’s tour of duty was over in seven months and he was getting out. A civilian doctor wouldn’t be too happy to have a patient show up at that late a time in a pregnancy. So we decided to go to a civilian doctor and pay for it. I was working anyhow through my seventh month until it got to be too tight a squeeze for me to fit behind the desk. My arms weren’t long enough to write and do my work on the desk. They discovered, by suspicion of two heartbeats and then an X-ray, we were having twins.
After that, my civilian doctor had me in twice a week, monitoring every step of the way. In delivery, I had two obstetricians, two pediatricians and six nurses attend the normal delivery. They were prepared for every eventuality!!! Actually, twin births are not that common and they wanted the experience. The upshot was that we had two full-term, healthy little rascals who have been ever since. They will be 55 in May. Son #1 who was out here to help us recently is one of them. He is the oldest by 10 minutes. (He glories in rubbing his seniority in on his ‘younger brother’.)
Contrast that with a very dear life-long friend whose husband was also in the military – non-com. By coincidence, a couple of years later she also had twins – girls, cared for by the military. I use the term ‘cared for’ loosely. The babies were premature and developed RDS (Neo-natal Respiratory Distress Syndrome) also known as Hyaline Membrane Disease as a result of underdeveloped lungs. This is a common problem with premies. One of them literally died and they brought her back. But she has suffered from severe Cerebral Palsy her entire life.
I’m sure there are apologists for the military who could argue that there are many, many other factors beside good pre-natal care in contrasting these two stories. True, but I could tell you a laundry list of other horror stories of women and children as well as a few men coming out of the medical facilities at the ‘Country Club of the AF’.
We have only to wonder when we hear and read about the Walter Reed treatment of veterans and in other military medical facilities around the country. Tripler Army Medical Center here in HI is another. It is my opinion that the “C” and “D” medical students have to go practice somewhere when they squeak by (and if) they graduate from med school. The military is a great option for them.
Aloha! Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on March 2, 2011
at 1:16 PM
Craig and Delurker, I think you two exhibited great communication skills, it only took a couple of posts reach an understanding in an online blog that must be a record.
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By: No one's puppet on March 2, 2011
at 11:03 AM
Mageen, I might be able to help you with more affordable “private” insurance companies out there. We have done a little research and have come up with a “reasonable” plan.
And depending on your son’s skill sets and education my husband might be able to direct him as far as employment is concerned.
Delurker has my e-mai,l when her world settles down a little bit, perhaps she can help us with the exchange of e-mail addresses if you wanna chat privately. 😉
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By: lori on March 2, 2011
at 10:27 AM
Thank you for your thoughtful post. I love reading you blog. We all need to try seeing these issues from both sides and you said it well.
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By: Carrie on March 2, 2011
at 10:20 AM
Yes Delurker I thought you were thinking we were riding high on the hog with having semi-good insurance.
And thanks for your thoughts for Val…
But with catastrophic illness there is no such thing as having enough insurance..and another thing there is no “old boy” Doctors rate for other physicians…
No free lunch. Sorry for that misconception Delurker on my part..
Mageen in Old Virginny..when we had no insurance in 2001..I was able to get cheaper insurance just for son thru his college. Don’t know if your son is registered for school or not but it was a tool available for us at the time.
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By: Craig on March 2, 2011
at 9:46 AM
Hoo, boy! Insurance companies! Could write a book! Son who lost his job in the economic downswing has been in our guest room for awhile as he searches for employment. The jobs he is hoping to find will provide benefits such as medical insurance. They ain’t out there! Jobs or benefits. He has been working for us in the meantime doing all the danged miserably hard physical work that a house and a big yard entail. That means we pay for his medical insurance. Blue Cross was horrendously expensive to begin with and did not start picking up costs until a deduction was reached and that deduction hurt!!! Then Blue Cross raised their rates beyond anything we could tolerate. Found another company and went with them but they are just extremely nuts. So far they have paid for diddly despite our on time monthly payments and they specialize in sending letters stating that they will no longer pay for anything because we did not do some particular thing. However, we have done everything they have asked of us. Have had to resort to the insurance division of the state corporation commission. Notified this company that as long as they are getting paid they had better pony up. Anyone out there with any suggestions as to what else we might do? Remember, it all hinges on affordability. Yes, I do trust everyone on the front porch.
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on March 2, 2011
at 7:05 AM
I was talking about insurance companies, Craig. I can’t figure out how I lost you there unless you thought I said you were defending them. I didn’t mean that. I am just frustrated at the rate increases that out-pace inflation by a lot every year while coverage goes down every year. Consumers should be ticked off!
I’m glad the the fluid thing is better for Val. It really does hurt. Hope your answers come soon and that there are great therapies for whatever they find.
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By: delurkergurl on March 1, 2011
at 9:45 PM
delurkergurl,
Defend what companies?
We pay for our insurance. Yes the state pays a part.
But I would say we are not in cat birds seat.
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By: Craig on March 1, 2011
at 9:25 PM
Hey Poolman, this one’s for you
Raji 😉
A unionized public employee, a member of the Tea Party, and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table there is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across and takes 11 cookies looks at the Tea Partier and says,”look out for that union guy, he wants your cookie.”
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By: Anonymous on March 1, 2011
at 7:11 PM
I just hate hearing about the financial hardship people with GOOD insurance endure when something comes up. How anyone can defend these companies is unfathomable to me. Rates keep going up, at double digit levels, while coverage decreases. Some is lawsuits but much is greed.
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By: delurkergurl on March 1, 2011
at 5:36 PM
😉 ” I love me some Yaller dogs” … 😉
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By: lori on March 1, 2011
at 4:14 PM
Love you too Poolman.
My dad was a yellow dog democrat and a Union man.
He never saw a Pug he liked…
The Union did nothing for him except send Mom a check for $150.00 from the membership when he died. Big Whoop.
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By: Craig on March 1, 2011
at 3:01 PM
Craig a democrat? LMAO. I don’t think so. Maybe a moderate republican. I don’t think all republicans are happy with their party. They have been a source of entertainment over the years. I don’t think they know how to react. The hard right gets all the monetary support. They cannabalize the more moderates of the party, as we saw the Palin supporters do the last round of elections. It is time for the purple party I think. Too bad big money doesn’t support the moderate agenda. This is an interesting take on the latest events…
http://itbegsthequestion.com/archives/3618
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By: poolman on March 1, 2011
at 2:13 PM
As much as I like to welcome you to the dark side, just kidding folks,you’re not a Democrat yet Craig. Maybe you are the last specimen of that lost species, a liberal Republican. But by 2012, you very well might be one of us. I had a laugh reading an interview with a new state legislator in a small town newspaper from Montana, he said he went to Helena thinking he was a conservative, but to his surprise, he is a moderate. And they are only into 45 days in the session, who knows, after the final 45 days, maybe he will redefine himself as a liberal. When catastrophic illness hits and folks realize they could face medical bankruptcy it really causes them to rethink their position on the health care reform. Keep up the spirit and keep busy, wishing both of you well.
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By: No one's puppet on March 1, 2011
at 10:32 AM
“Maybe your acquaintance’s methods of birth control kept falling out, too…” No, pfesser, she was well educated, married, living in Colorado on her way to New Guinea in the South Pacific to teach new methods of rice growing along with her husband, two young children, and the baby on her hip.
Failure of birth control is one of those “unplanned” things that life throws us sometimes, and although I’m sure it’s sometimes due to brain failure on the part of the woman, please don’t assume that dim-wittedness is the main cause.
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By: HRH sofia EQ on March 1, 2011
at 10:28 AM
PFesser,
Were those honest to God quotes from Palin’s book?
Diagram that? Ya gotta be kiddin.
On another note.
Health insurance. I thought we had good health insurance thru the state.
But God..I finish paying one bill and another comes in the back door. I get a bill for 6K plus for imaging studies and my portion is $970.00. Pretty good right. Then another comes and its for imaging again and its $1200.
Then all the other bills start coming in and in one months of treatments and procedures I could be driving two VERY nice cars. About $4K for the month of January alone. Have not got the charges for the node surgery yet and then there is the hotel bill and gas and on and on. I don’t see how anyone without insurance does it. I’ve become a believer in Health care reform..still not on the backs of anyone else..but there should be some sort of catastrophic insurance coverage.
OMG..did I just become a democrat?
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By: Craig on March 1, 2011
at 9:45 AM
NOP,
Nothing yet other than the Researcher in Dallas has the biopsy report. She has not or preferred not to tell us anything yet.
Now Dr. O’Shaughnesey is waiting for the three individual labs to issue her a report on their respective trials as to what chemo cocktail they have developed that will best kill Val’s particular cancer. So no treatments of any kind. AS we understand it, you can only have so many chemo treatments in your lifetime then it supposedly is not good for you. Until then we have two separate reservations on Southwest Air for this Friday and then the following to see the Doctor in Dallas with Val. She wants to meet with us in person.
But until she gets those reports we are just waiting. Val is working and going to gym. The area of surgery has finally stopped filling with fluid and so its not as sore. Church, gym and work are keeping her busy from thinking about everything else.
NOP..Thanks for asking.
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By: Craig on March 1, 2011
at 9:31 AM
PFesser,
Shame on you! I am the daughter of a World war II vet, the Sister of a Vietnam Vet, the wife of a retired Army Officer, The daughter-in-law of a retired Army Officer and I AM a vet! There has not been a draft since Vietnam, the military is all volunteer… remember. You could not have kept most men from running to their local recruiters in WWII. My father ran off and enlisted at 15!. When I stood there, raised my hand and took an oath to protect my country, there was no force involved. Also, each and every one of those veterens was paid for his work.
Now, you may have stumbled onto a solution for the problem at hand. If we had a system set up to pay for the day care, healthcare, food and education of each of these children I bet abortion rates would go way down.
One of the main reasons women choose to abort is because they DO think about the child in their womb. How can I take care of this baby? Can I afford it? Can I feed it? can I give it the love, attention, care it needs? Can I keep a roof over it’s head? Can I provide for this baby? Am I emotionally, Physically, mentally, finacially ready to be a mother? These are the things a woman thinks about when making a decision. It has never been like ordering a cup of coffee, what an insult to women who make these decisions!
Frankly, if we humans put the same kind of deep thought into ALL of our decisions, we would be far better off and most likely not in two unwanted wars.
Tammyharper, you sound like an excellent mother… Bravo. If only all women could be as lucky as you. If only all people (men too) were as thoughtful and willing to discuss things with their children. Unfortunately this is the exception not the rule. There are an awful lot of bad parents out there, thus the problem continues down family lines. Education is the answer to most problems, when will we learn that?
I also talked to my children about education, sex and other hot topics, I may have had the sex talk to well…. My son is 32 and married, still no grankids!!!! lol.
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By: Mikat on March 1, 2011
at 9:08 AM
tammyharper, NOP, et al.
Very cool discussion. It is very refreshing to find one’s opponent is just like oneself, just with a different opinion. good stuff.
HRH Sofia –
“I met a woman back in 1972 with 3 children, each conceived using a DIFFERENT form of birth control. They were her children but she was young enough and in a position to take care of them.”
Sounds like a girl I counseled as a med student. She was from Rowlesburg, WV – it doesn’t get any farther into the sticks than there. Fourteen, she had been on oral contraceptives since age twelve, and turned up pregnant. (We had identified her as “at risk” several years before and put her on BCPs.) When I asked her what the hell happened, she said “I don’t think the pills work anyway – they keep falling out.”
Maybe your acquaintance’s methods of birth control kept falling out, too…
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By: PFesser on March 1, 2011
at 5:25 AM
Craig, if you’re passing by, has Val heard anything from Dallas yet? We worry about the both of you, just so you know.
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By: No one's puppet on February 28, 2011
at 11:16 PM
IMO, Scott Walker is a prime example of a man who has yet to prove to himself he is a man.
I wonder if he can convince the people of Wisconsin he is not an a$$h*le pretending to be a man.
If Spring would just come so I can get on with life. This has been the longest, coldest, snowyest winter of my life! I’d be happy with a bit of global warming right about now.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 28, 2011
at 9:10 PM
Tammy,
Thank you, I respect your goals. Your children are very fortunate to have you for a mother.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 28, 2011
at 8:30 PM
Hi Kitchen Crowd,
One more thing. All of us learn, not only from our parents, siblings and extended families, but from the peer groups and authority figures in our lives. And it is not only speaking and answering questions. Our tone of voice, body language and attitudes express as much about us as what we say. It is a process that begins in the cradle.
It is far too late to wait until our children are teenagers, sit them down and give them “The Talk” about the birds and bees, or anything else of consequence for that matter.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on February 28, 2011
at 8:26 PM
Shash, I doubt there is anymore to be said on the present subject that hasn’t already been said. The situation in Wisconsin certainly demonstrates the importance of voting in every election, big wakeup call for a lot of Wisconsin’s citizens.
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By: No one's puppet on February 28, 2011
at 7:56 PM
Hello Helen,
Not to push the conversation off it’s current subject but I wonder: What’s your opinion on what is going on in Wisconsin with their ruler, King Scott?
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By: Shash on February 28, 2011
at 7:50 PM
How do we teach this, when, where? And not just the women, men as well.
First we have to have an acceptable baseline that I think needs to be legislated and backed by law.
From there what I do in my home is we have conversations where I ask them questions and get their opinion, from the age of 4-5 years on. Now in the beginning it is obviously a very basic and simplistic conversation, but i engage their minds by giving them basic information then asking them what they think. As the years go on the conversation evolves. I give them more information and ask them what they think. I plant seeds of ideas that they might not have thought of and give them something to think about. And then we talk some more. By the time they are teenagers they are very well versed on the subject. They have given it considerable thought from many different points of view. This to me seems to be the best way to educate my children and give them all the tools they need to make the right choices.
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By: tammyharper on February 28, 2011
at 6:52 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
Unfortunately, the medieval mentality still prevails in the thinking of a great many authortarian personalities, both male and female. Absolutely we have to fight like hell for justice for everyone. Fortunately for me, I was never in a position where I had to contemplate an abortion, but that doesn’t mean I can’t or won’t even consider what it can be like for those women who are. I have never in my long life had a problem with domestic abuse, but that doesn’t mean I can’t or won’t have strong feelings for women who are subjected to it.
Our system of justice is a slow, lugubrious process and I occasionally lose patience with it. Still, when it takes a judge and 12 people taking the time to deliberate a problem and untimately the Supreme Court to decide what is best for society as a whole in the long run, I think that is a much better way to go than knee jerk reactions based on individual life experiences.
Aloha! Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on February 28, 2011
at 6:19 PM
Hey! I thought everyone knew how things went down before Roe v Wade. Women in life threatening circumstances did have to go before a panel of doctors who would decide for her. There are horror stories of such panels deciding against the woman in which case she and the fetus died, sometimes leaving behind a clutch of children at home. Yup. There were doctors who decided despite evidence to the contrary that the woman pleading before them was just one of those “inconvenient” cases and what the hell another kid was just what she needed! If this sounds like a police or Stalinist state, you got it right. And yes, way back then five kids was considered a standard small family and any woman coming before such a panel had better have that quintet or just forget about it.
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on February 28, 2011
at 6:19 PM
tammyharper,
“I also do not think that abortions should be like ordering a cup of coffee. Somewhere in the middle, where the rights of the unborn child are looked after, and the mother is given enough information and options to make her final determination with her eyes wide open to me seems to be the best we can do.”
Totally agree! I know three young people (early 20’s and one a senior in high school when impregnated his girlfriend) who did not choose abortion.
The question is when should the mother be given information and options. IMO that should be before the day she shows up a clinic. Perhaps I wrongly assume she would have thought about her options before that day. So how do we teach them?
Years ago, my daughter came home from college telling me about a conversation she had with friends about who you would tell if you were going to have an abortion. She said she wouldn’t tell friends but tell her mother and we would do what needed and that would be that.. They were shocked that she would tell her mother.
So she asked what I would do. I said there was more to an abortion then just getting rid of an unwanted pregnancy. That it could come back to haunt her at some time etc. I would make her talk to each side etc. but the choice was hers.
She said Yeah that’s what I thought you would say and wanted to talk about something else.
I thought Whoooa. I am not through here but what do I want to say? (I am not a fast thinker and was not ready for this conversation). I said you would come home and ask me to help you abort my grandchild? She said No it’s not your grandchild! Yes it is, regardless of how this “child” was conceived any child of yours is my grandchild, your father’s grandchild. It is your brother and sister’s niece or nephew; Grandma and Grandpa’s great grandchild. I went through the entire family, both sides (one side quite large thankfully) and gave that child a title, a place in the family, even if I gave the wrong relationship. The expression on her face told me I had gotten my point across. She never thought of it that way. I then went on to again talk about birth control and not putting yourself in the position to think abortion etc.
How do we teach this, when, where? And not just the women, men as well.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 28, 2011
at 5:50 PM
tammy said, “Very little goes on that through responsible actions and planning I do not have control over. I am the master of my own destiny. That being said I have not made choices where needing to have an abortion is necessary.”
Holy Doggies, Tammy, how on earth did you rig that????? Or maybe you just don’t know how lucky you’ve been.
I met a woman back in 1972 with 3 children, each conceived using a DIFFERENT form of birth control. They were her children but she was young enough and in a position to take care of them.
What’s that saying about the “best laid plans of mice and men” or something like that.
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By: HRH sofia EQ on February 28, 2011
at 5:48 PM
Well we’d be agreed about that; most places in this country, it isn’t like ordering a cup of coffee, unless you usually drive hundreds of miles for a cup of coffee. Seems to me there are two options for the mother, go to term or don’t go to term. As for the unborn child there are three options, none the choice of the child. The mother can keep the child she didn’t want, she can place the child in foster care, or she can allow the child to be adopted. The later is probably the most acceptable, but unless the child is healthy and white, it probably won’t happen. And of course, some adoptive parents look better on paper than what they really are in real life. That’s what we are doing now, it isn’t satisfactory, never was, and never will be, but even so, we are doing the very best that we can right now.
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By: No one's puppet on February 28, 2011
at 5:09 PM
There is no answer to any question that solves a problem for every contingency. The best we can do is make a decision based on the good we can do for the majority. I do not feel that making abortions illegal is the choice that serves the greater good. I also do not think that abortions should be like ordering a cup of coffee. Somewhere in the middle, where the rights of the unborn child are looked after, and the mother is given enough information and options to make her final determination with her eyes wide open to me seems to be the best we can do.
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By: tammyharper on February 28, 2011
at 3:41 PM
Tammyharper,
“In any other area of life, we teach our children to take responsibility for the choices they make. Chose to drugs, there is a price for that choice. Chose to live outside the law, there is a price, and a place we will send you for making that choice. Chose to have unprotected sex and you run the risk of becoming pregnant. In the end it is about the choices we make.
I chose not to do things that have consequences that I do not desire. But if I do chose to take that risk, I am going to take responsibility for that choice, and I see nothing wrong with expecting everyone else to do the same.”
Absolutely agree with you. BUT the truth is some people never learn to take responsibility for their actions. Why? I don’t know. Is it that they are just not “wired” to take responsibility?
I have three children all grown. Simply put, one child took No for answer, one child had to be beaten over the head and one child you had to lay out why it was in their best interest to do or not do something.
Not all parents take the time or have the knowledge to teach their children responsibility for their actions. IMO, some parents, typically authoritarians, solve the sex, drugs etc. problems by keeping the child on a very tight rein. They don’t allow the child an opportunity, but then that child goes off to college or on their own and they find themselves on a loose rein and do not know how handle their new found freedom.
We can talk or we can lecture the “evils” of sex, drugs, alcohol etc. and they are just not ready for that conversation. My mother gave me all the information I needed about sex. The problem was I was not the least bit interested in boys and I did not think I would ever want to have sex although most of the girls my age liked boys! I was only interested in horses. However, I did change my mind a few years later.
Some of us here remember how an unwed, pregnant young woman was treated or “solved” her problem. Roe vs. Wade was the lesser of the two evils for some us. If you make abortion illegal it will not stop abortions. So if a woman is found to have had an abortion will she be charged with murder? Without a fetus the man who impregnated her can not be charged. Is the answer?
I am not sure I am making my point here. I am pro-choice, I never had an abortion, I could not give up my baby for adoption; I can only make that choice for myself. I don’t know the answer, I just know what I don’t think is the answer.
What is your solution?
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 28, 2011
at 2:20 PM
I think Margaret & Helen should have hosted the Oscars.
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By: Francis Copeland on February 28, 2011
at 12:58 PM
.
.
If households budgeted like the G.O.P.
PEACE ~ Δ
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By: Whirled Peas Δ on February 28, 2011
at 12:44 PM
Creamed, I am talking with you all on here..even if it is by the written word, but more to the point..what is your point in posting that?
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By: tammyharper on February 28, 2011
at 12:29 PM
tammyharper:
“Until you find the integrity to answer to your previous slander against me, I have nothing further to discuss with you.”
Law . defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc.
Slander = spoken.
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By: Creamed on February 28, 2011
at 12:14 PM
Now we are getting some place. I too abhor abortion for convenience, however if rape, incest, and medical are the only basis for procedure, women will have to testify before a Judge that is indeed the case. Therefore she has no choice in the matter what-so-ever, a Judge, a member of the Judiciary, a government employee will decide. No way, women and girls are going to pull out a coat hanger and…. Roe V Wade handles a difficult and sensitive situation in the only sensible way possible.
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By: No one's puppet on February 28, 2011
at 10:45 AM
Mikat, you confuse me. You are either attributing someone elses post to me or you are arguing dishonestly by putting words in my mount I never said.
Mikat: “who are you to tell a woman that the fetus in her womb is MORE important then the woman carrying it?”
I’ve never made any comment to this. I have said what is right for me and my family, and that I support pro-choice for others. Where did you come up with this statement?
I get the impression most pro-choice people see all pregnant women as victims that need to be protected. Most of you portray pregnancy as a rape and or a tragedy. I just have to disagree with this kind of irrational line of thinking. Just because some are does not mean all, or even most are. For the majority, protected sex is an option. For most not having sex is an option. For most, taking responsibility for ones own actions is an option.
In any other area of life, we teach our children to take responsibility for the choices they make. Chose to drugs, there is a price for that choice. Chose to live outside the law, there is a price, and a place we will send you for making that choice. Chose to have unprotected sex and you run the risk of becoming pregnant. In the end it is about the choices we make. I chose not to do things that have consequences that I do not desire. But if I do chose to take that risk, I am going to take responsibility for that choice, and I see nothing wrong with expecting everyone else to do the same.
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By: tammyharper on February 28, 2011
at 10:40 AM
PFesser, my basic belief in pro-life is this. I am an adult. I am responsible for my choices in life. Very little goes on that through responsible actions and planning I do not have control over. I am the master of my own destiny. That being said I have not made choices where needing to have an abortion is necessary. I understand life happens sometimes, some things are not in our control, but for the most part if we plan ahead we can control most of what life throws us.
I also believe the unborn child has rights that need to be looked out for. Geography to me is a poor argument to say that inside the mother it has no rights, but outside it does.
For the most part I am for human freedom. I support doctor assisted suicide for those terminally ill and in pain. I support the right to chose to abort or not to abort, I would however put limitations on when that can be done, basically due to our ability to detect so early on in a pregnancy. I am for the right to have guns, freedom of speech, basically everything that allows us to make our own way in life as long as we do not inhibit other people’s freedoms.
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By: tammyharper on February 28, 2011
at 10:25 AM
“It is very simple. My body is a SOVEREIGN STATE. ”
No it’s not. Tell that to the dead Vietnam, WWII, WWI, Civil War draftees.
“NO person/Government has a say over my body.”
Yes they do. It is the say that comes with force.
“The decision to keep or terminate a pregnancy is neither easy or done in a light hearted way. ”
Agreed. I’ve been involved with these decisions several times in my own family and others. It ain’t fun, and anybody who says it is IMHO doesn’t know what he is talking about.
“That is why it is CONSTITUTIONALLY protected in the early stages.”
No it’s not. The Constitution is silent on abortion.
“After all once the infant is born, it is still dependant on me and will be until adulthood.”
So, since that is the same as before delivery, can you terminate its life then? Say, to age twenty, if they haven’t moved out? (This is an important question; my 20 year-old may not make it to 21 if he doesn’t straighten up)
“This is a major life altering decision and only the woman and her partner(if he hasn’t run for the hills) can make it.”
Yes and no. vide supra about “force.”
“Who are you to tell a woman that the fetus in her womb is MORE important then the woman carrying it?”
That is not the argument at all. Some believe the fetus accumulates rights as it develops, with full rights at term and very few or none right after conception. I feel that way.
“When the Government steps in and tells me I must carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, then abandons me when I can neither afford a child or provide for one, how does that help either the baby or me? for that matter how does that help this country? Who is going to pay for these children the poor cannot afford?”
Absolutely agreed.
“Once the government can tell me what I can and cannot do with MY body, then it is a short step away from telling my Husband(any MAN) I BELONG to him and HE can do what he wants with my body, thus becoming third class citizens and chattel.”
I don’t see that, and that is not the argument anyway. The question is, IMHO, “does the fetus have rights, and if so, when does it get them and what are they?” Has nothing to do with your being your husband’s sex slave. (Hey, don’t knock it; it might be fun! — that’s a joke)
“No child should be born unwanted, unloved and unprovided for. In a perfect world there would be no need for abortions, but since we are very far from perfection, you must allow women to make private decisions for themselves.”
Agreed.
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By: PFesser on February 28, 2011
at 10:12 AM
I am willing to listen to them PFesser, but how can I, a pro-choice person, possibly comprehend this question, “who speaks for the fetus?” Like I am suppose to know what that means? Not! Therefore wouldn’t it be better if they told us, the-choice people, what that even means? Does one need to hire a clairvoyant? They speak to the dead, so I suppose if one were predisposed to talking to grandma through a medium speaking to the unborn is just a small difference?
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By: No one's puppet on February 28, 2011
at 10:08 AM
NOP –
“Rather than ask us, the pro-choice people, who represents or answers for the fetus, which to me is just incomprehensible, why don’t you tell us how this works?”
I’m not sure what you mean. I feel I understand MY pro-choice position, and certainly almost everyone else here who is pro-choice has clearly expressed *themselves.* Your saying pro-life (I think that is who you meant) position is incomprehensible is exactly the reason we should talk. Certainly pro-lifers feel OUR position is incomprehensible too. What is the harm in listening to what they have to say?
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By: PFesser on February 28, 2011
at 9:56 AM
TammyHarper/Noah,
It is very simple. My body is a SOVEREIGN STATE. NO person/Government has a say over my body. When a woman becomes pregnant, the zygote is completely dependant on her. It is in fact fully dependant on the mother until it’s lungs and other body organs have developed enough to survive on it’s own. The decision to keep or terminate a pregnancy is neither easy or done in a light hearted way. That is why it is CONSTITUTIONALLY protected in the early stages. After all once the infant is born, it is still dependant on me and will be until adulthood. This is a major life altering decision and only the woman and her partner(if he hasn’t run for the hills) can make it. Who are you to tell a woman that the fetus in her womb is MORE important then the woman carrying it? When the Government steps in and tells me I must carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, then abandons me when I can neither afford a child or provide for one, how does that help either the baby or me? for that matter how does that help this country? Who is going to pay for these children the poor cannot afford? It sure as heck won’t be the rich who get stuck with an unwanted pregnancy, they can afford the plane ticket to take care of the problem.
Our Government is hell bent on stopping any and all services that would help the poor. Food, clothing, daycare, education, healthcare, special needs, and all the other requirements for a healthy productive citizen do not come cheap. Once the government can tell me what I can and cannot do with MY body, then it is a short step away from telling my Husband(any MAN) I BELONG to him and HE can do what he wants with my body, thus becoming third class citizens and chattel.
No child should be born unwanted, unloved and unprovided for. In a perfect world there would be no need for abortions, but since we are very far from perfection, you must allow women to make private decisions for themselves.
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By: Mikat on February 28, 2011
at 9:49 AM
Hey, good news here, folks!
http://foknewschannel.com/
Keith Olbermann has resurfaced with his own blog. He’s calling it FOK News, as in, Friends of Keith…”FOK”….
I like Keith, and I love Rachel Maddow. Theirs are among a very few voices that offer progressive, interesting, forward-leaning commentary on the issues of the day. It contrasts well to the FALSE News and rightwing Koch heads spewing forth with their scripted talking points.
I’d like to see a list of all the GOP ideas put forth that were summarily rejected later after Obama threw his support to them when trying to get some forward movement in the Congress.
Anyway, for Helen’s progressive readers, you might want to bookmark that site.
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By: Elsie on February 28, 2011
at 9:29 AM
Yes, I agree with PFesser about the thought process behind a pro-life stance. Rather than ask us, the pro-choice people, who represents or answers for the fetus, which to me is just incomprehensible, why don’t you tell us how this works?
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By: No one's puppet on February 28, 2011
at 9:24 AM
tammyharper –
I for one would like to hear the thought process behind a pro-life stance. I promise not to ambush you; for others, obviously, I cannot speak. If you can steer through the inevitable s**storm, some of us would like to hear what you have to say.
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By: PFesser on February 28, 2011
at 9:06 AM
Oh, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooAH!
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By: No one's puppet on February 28, 2011
at 8:53 AM
the Prof said:
‘Can’t learn anything if you refuse to listen to those who disagree with you, you know…’
NOP replied:
‘Good lord PFessor, what’s to know? Is if it is against your morals to have an abortion, you don’t have one. ”
Ah, if ’twere only that simple, then there wouldn’t be a controversy, would there? Since the State (as in the country itself) is composed entirely of humans and nothing else, and that State could potentially cease to exist in one generation, the State (as in the government) has a legitimate interest in the production of citizens. While I am strongly pro-choice, I do not fail to see that the other side has legitimate concerns, and am willing to talk to them. Dismissing them out of hand is a formula for hardening their resolve and making them completely intractable.
We have seen that happen, I believe very clearly in the verbal mistreatment and denigration of the Tea Party, which was dismissed as “nut cases” and “unimportant.” All that did was piss them off and make them even harder to deal with. The last election showed just how unimportant they were. Make no mistake about it, if we do not deal with the anti-abortion people in a smart way – and by that I mean actually listen to what they have to say – they will at some point cause all abortions to be illegal, in my opinion.
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By: PFesser on February 28, 2011
at 6:36 AM
Craig –
“My final English teacher in High School was probably the best..but was pure English literature..none of that diagramming..by the time I got through diagramming a sentence it looked like a road trip for National Lampoons vacation.”
Remember the Website where you could put in a name and get out a Palin kid’s name? You know, put in James Wilson Johnson and get out Moose Tracker Blizzard, or somesuch? My wife and I are considering putting up a site where one is challenged to diagram a Palin sentence. My son tells me he can do the software. Here are two you can start on:
“It’s a difficult situation, this is that 3am White House phone call and it seems for many of us trying to get that information from our leader in the White House it it seems that that call went right to um the answering machine. And nobody yet has, no body yet has explained to the American public what they know, and surely they know more than the rest of us know who it is who will be taking the place of Mubarak and I’m not real enthused about what it is that that’s being done on a national level and from DC in regards to understanding all the situation there in Egypt.”
Whew!
As an aside, my father-in-law gave his approval to my marrying his daughter when he – a former Lutheran school headmaster – discovered I could diagram a sentence successfully. I still haven’t beaten him a single game of Scrabble, though, and he’s eighty. Maybe someday…
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By: PFesser on February 28, 2011
at 6:21 AM
In all of this discussion, can anyone see a parallel to what the governor of Wisconsin is doing? He is working like a team of dogs to take away a central core right froma group of voters in his state and he apparently will do anything to attain that goal. I am betting he is going to trod the path of mandatory arbitration for all union members. For those of you who have never heard of this it consists of the employer (state) contractually forbidding the employees from ever suing the employer for any reason (including rape which is actually a criminal case but with civil case sometimes thrown in) and instead abitrating. The arbitrators work for and are appointed by the state and there can be an entire panel of them whereas the complainant is liikely to have only one and that one is also paid by the state! Never heard of this? Check out how hard Halliburton via a subsidiary is pulling this on a rape victim that worked at one of their sites in the Middle East. If that isn’t enough to grab the pitchforks and flaming torches, I don’t know what will. It has been a pattern of employers who hire by contract to do this. Its also a common clause in contracts between oil/gas companies and private landowners when the drilling companies want to explore (drill wells). Any damage to private property or to the landowner ends up in mandatory arbitration. Think about this balance of power and its effect in the most private section of one’s existence.
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on February 28, 2011
at 6:10 AM
This will be my final say at least to you No one’s puppet since you are choosing to be so dishonest. Some people have the ability to say, this is what I believe, but I do not have the right to impose my beliefs on others. That is how I feel. Our home is pro-life, but we would never support taking that choice away from others.
Until you find the integrity to answer to your previous slander against me, I have nothing further to discuss with you.
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By: tammyharper on February 27, 2011
at 11:58 PM
Pro-life or pro-choice really doesn’t even begin to explain how any of us feel about abortion, that’s the thing the pro-life people just don’t get about those of us, who designate ourselves as pro-choice. I have no idea what I would do in many women’s circumstances and I refuse to put myself in shoes I’ve never walked in. But when some one tells me, they are pro-choice, but then they begin to equivocate, I call bullshit.
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By: No one's puppet on February 27, 2011
at 10:55 PM
Not to pick nits Craig, but this never had anything to do with No one’s puppet’s beliefs. It had to do with making statements to something I never did or said. I asked for nothing more than further clarification. I don’t see that as being disrespectful, especially in light of her unprovoked response to me.
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By: tammyharper on February 27, 2011
at 2:05 PM
tammyharper,
Yes there are those who have been here longer than us on the porch.
I guess the first rule should be no name calling. Just spout your beliefs and argue without condemnation your thoughts. Some may try and bait you into an argument.
But as PFesser said “after all, tolerance is the *essence* of liberalism, isn’t it? It is also the essence of the *social* view of libertarianism”
NOP is justified in her beliefs as much as you are. But just because YOU have a different opinion don’t try and force the issue…just calmly listen.read and respond with kindness.
Peace.
But don’t no BS from anyone either.
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By: Craig on February 27, 2011
at 12:59 PM
* You are or You’re
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By: tammyharper on February 27, 2011
at 10:48 AM
Your obviously a very angry and bitter person No one’s puppet. As I said before I shared my personal beliefs as scores of others have. I am sorry you cannot find it within yourself to accept opinions that might differ from yours.
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By: tammyharper on February 27, 2011
at 10:46 AM
Tammy, Tammy, if I were young again and pregnant, perhaps regretfully pregnant or perhaps joyfully pregnant, but with medical issues, it would still be none of your damn business. I am not going to look to you for moral insight. My body, my uterus, my bedroom, my medical evaluations, and my family planning are none of your damn business, so fly your kite elsewhere.
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By: No one's puppet on February 27, 2011
at 10:08 AM
I don’t know delurkergurl. I was targeted unprovoked. I asked twice for an explanation why and both requests were ignored. Since I have never spoken directly to No one’s puppet prior to her comments to me I have to assume there is an underlying reason for her choice of words. Unless of course as a previous poster suggested I said something unacceptable to the regulars of this board and I am now subject to harsh responses to get me to leave. I certainly hope that is not true but I am open to hearing opinions.
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By: tammyharper on February 27, 2011
at 9:05 AM
Wow, do you ever have NOP pegged incorrectly! 😀
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By: delurkergurl on February 27, 2011
at 8:47 AM
Thanks for the response No one’s puppet. I think its a little disingenuous to make statements like that to someone then refuse to stand by your own words.
In my humble opinion discussions about the life of another individual is never a waste of time. We should always be reevaluating our morals to ensure we do not stray. No one is saying that change must occur just because we chose to open a dialog on the subject.
My initial thoughts on No one’s puppet’s comments, and others like it, is that it is a fear reaction. Fear of change can often lead to an unwillingness to deal with a topic. That fear leads to doing whatever it takes to shut down any conversation by whatever means is necessary.
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By: tammyharper on February 27, 2011
at 8:17 AM
Maybe they couple double with Heather.. Ya think?
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By: lori on February 27, 2011
at 5:38 AM
When the government concerns itself with your vajayjay, government as overstepped its bounds. Not worried though, we have a Supreme Court, all this nonsense is a waste of time. I think the PFesser will want to take you to lunch, please let us know, who picks up the tab. Wink, wink….
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By: No one's puppet on February 26, 2011
at 11:58 PM
Brilliant as always, Helen!
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By: Kate on February 26, 2011
at 11:52 PM
Thanks and hello PFesser. I truly do not understand the animosity my simple question has brought out. Whirled Peas tried to say that because the Republicans want something that would require regulation that it is automatically contrary to a base conservative idea of smaller government. By that simplistic rationalization the Republicans could propose no new legislation that would require oversight. It is a fallacy in my humble opinion.
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By: tammyharper on February 26, 2011
at 10:35 PM
Ok No one’s puppet. if you are talking about that statement then your reply makes even less sense. You said:
“tammyharper glad you have morals, but your morals apply to you alone, nothing in the law, says everyone must do what you tell them to do tammyharper!”
I said: “I do not understand the connection. How does taking a moral stand on abortion equate to hypocritical thinking of less government?”
I was asking what was the connection. I did not say anything about my personal morality. I asked a question. How does one ask a question while at the same time tell other people what to do? Your sounding very confrontational, I am genuinely confused to what you think you see in my question. If you could explain yourself better I would appreciate it.
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By: tammyharper on February 26, 2011
at 10:28 PM
Oh my gawd Craig, the diagramming, I thought once you knew it, why would you need to do it year after year. I guess there are certain aspects of English I like; literature as you mentioned of course, and word origins absolutely fascinate me.
Good lord PFessor, what’s to know? Is if it is against your morals to have an abortion, you don’t have one. I’ve always been glad I was never tested, morally, legally, or medically. Three pregnancies, three births, all nicely spaced, then done. I lived a charmed life, I’m grateful for it, and if I could make every woman’s life that simple I would.
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By: No one's puppet on February 26, 2011
at 10:21 PM
NOP..All I know about contractions is they hurt and most women don’t care for them.
My final English teacher in High School was probably the best..but was pure English literature..none of that diagramming..by the time I got through diagramming a sentence it looked like a road trip for National Lampoons vacation.
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By: Craig on February 26, 2011
at 9:48 PM
Auntie Jean:
Here is the hentoff article
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=12811
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By: Anonymous on February 26, 2011
at 8:58 PM
Jean –
“Conservatives are SO hung up on the details of anything remotely having to do with sex – same sex marriage, abortion, infidelity”
I’ve noticed that. Maybe they are fascinated by sex because they aren’t getting much of it. My old engineering professor opined that more Democrats got into sexual peccadilloes because “women don’t find Republicans appealing.”
“while ignoring international agreements on basic human rights going back to the Magna Charta”
There is enough criticism on that front to go around for *both* parties, over many, many administrations. I don’t think that is just a conservative/Rebiblican thing.
“And money, money, money of course is their mainstay.”
You say that like it is a *bad* thing…
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By: PFesser on February 26, 2011
at 8:54 PM
Heh, heh…I think I missed wishing you welcome, tammyharper!
There are those here who would chastise you for not having the politically correct opinion, but don’t worry – I and several others will subsequently chastise *them* for not allowing you to express any opinion you wish – after all, tolerance is the *essence* of liberalism, isn’t it? It is also the essence of the *social* view of libertarianism – to which I personally cleave, with the fiscal opinion generally conservative.
Tell us more! I personally am strongly pro-choice, but am interested in the arguments for the other side. Can’t learn anything if you refuse to listen to those who disagree with you, you know…
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By: PFesser on February 26, 2011
at 8:47 PM
Whatever Tammy, this is what I read, “I do not understand the connection. How does taking a moral stand on abortion equate to hypocritical thinking of less government?”
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By: No one's puppet on February 26, 2011
at 8:41 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
Yep, we have to get in there and fight like hell to get the word out. The conservative agenda is to make so much noise as to drown out all the voices of reason.
Good ole Bruddah Peas resurrected Keith Olbermann here. (Whirled Peas on Feb. 26, 2011 at 10:00 AM.) I was afraid Keith was dead and gone for good. Check out the link.
Here is another fine article by Nat Hentoff. He is consistently an idealist regarding the rule of law and justice. Help! Could one of you computer genius put it up for me? It is entitled “A Tortured History Pursues George W. Bush.” Lest we forget.
I’m all for idealism and I understand why President Obama decided not to pursue prosecutions in the previous administration for their gross crimes against humanity. Remember going after the Clinton/Lewinski affair that took so much time and money? The National Inquirer over and over again. Nothing like a juicy sex scandal to distract the public from the skulldudgery Bush, Inc. was up to going on under the radar.
Conservatives are SO hung up on the details of anything remotely having to do with sex – same sex marriage, abortion, infidelity – while ignoring international agreements on basic human rights going back to the Magna Charta. And money, money, money of course is their mainstay.
So GWB can’t leave the country without being arrested. Fine. Let him hole up in Texas, clear scrub brush and contemplate his navel to his heart’s content for all I care.
But it is important for us to have faith and trust that the elected officials representing us have values that reflect basic decency. That doesn’t seem to me to be such a tall order.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on February 26, 2011
at 8:33 PM
No one’s puppet : “tammyharper glad you have morals, but your morals apply to you alone,”
I thought I articulate this point very clearly when I said :” Our home is pro-life, that is our choice”
No one’s puppet: “nothing in the law, says everyone must do what you tell them to do tammyharper!”
I was giving my opinion on what I believe as have many others on here. Could you point out where I was issuing orders for people to do as I say?
I feel I was quite clear on this point as well when I said ” My goal is not to change anyone’s mind.”
Your remarks seem to be very unwarranted and unsubstantiated. I look forward to your response.
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By: tammyharper on February 26, 2011
at 6:25 PM
You have the ability to articulate everything I am unable to express.
Thank you so much.
You are awesome!
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By: Christy on February 26, 2011
at 1:28 PM
If ya haven’t seen it yet…
KO’s new blog: FOK NEWS
*Friends Of Keith
PEACE ALL ~ Δ
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By: Whirled Peas Δ on February 26, 2011
at 10:00 AM
Ooops – Grandmother’s burned their bras. I keep forgetting my age.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 26, 2011
at 9:52 AM
We will make young woman sorry their mothers ever burned their bras!
Nationwide Effort to Restrict Reproduction Rights
“Just to review, the way this game is played is that a legislator will conceive of an absolutely insane anti-woman law, stoke outrage, then make a big show of relenting on the crazy part of the law in order to get what they want — making abortion illegal — enacted. They will then aver that this is the result of “negotiations” in which “all sides” have been “heard out” resulting in a “compromise.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/25/reproductive-rights-restriction-efforts_n_828482.html#s245373&title=Iowa_Bill_Allows
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 26, 2011
at 9:35 AM
Deedie noted:
“If you decide that a fetus has rights or should be given a voice then you cannot suddenly decide that a fetus from rape does not have those same rights. The same goes for a fetus with severe abnormalities or one that will produce a fatal pregnancy for the mother. If you allow an abortion because of rape, incest, or danger to the mother, then you must allow abortion for any reason.”
Excellent reasoning. I had not thought of it that way. Thanks.
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By: PFesser on February 26, 2011
at 8:23 AM
Lori opined:
“They are hell bent on making sure we “remain” a Judeo-Christian nation even though the Constitution says the government should remain free from religion.”
Actually, I am unable to find anywhere that the Constitution says anything like that; I would appreciate any reference you might have. The only references in the Great Document relating to state-sponsored religion I can find are, of course the first amendment:
‘ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.’
…and a somewhat oblique reference via the Presidential oath of office:
‘I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.’
The ‘wall of separation’ is first referenced, I believe, in then-President Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptist association, abt. 1800 or so: (I live just a few miles from Monticello, my *own* personal place of worship.)
‘Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, [the people, in the 1st Amendment,] declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus ***building a wall of separation between church and state.’***
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By: PFesser on February 26, 2011
at 8:13 AM
Here it is A Jean.
http://www.salon.com/news/the_labor_movement/?story=/politics/war_room/2011/02/23/lyons_money_talks
I enjoyed this piece as well. 😉
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By: lori on February 26, 2011
at 6:18 AM
Hi Congenial Gang,
Help! Again, Bruddah poolman and/or Bruddah jsri, could you please track down and put up a link for me to another Gene Lyons column entitled, “In cash we trust, but unions we bust.”
As most of you know, he is a talented and successful Southern gentleman with a knack for presenting his opinion supported by accurate facts and figures. Clearly a thinker with intellect but subtle humor as well.
Thanks.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on February 26, 2011
at 1:31 AM
tammyharper glad you have morals, but your morals apply to you alone, nothing in the law, says everyone must do what you tell them to do tammyharper!
Uh, don’t make me say it, Daryl, lmao.
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By: No one's puppet on February 25, 2011
at 11:59 PM
If I was aborted I wouldn’t be here. Stop ALL abortions. Praise Jesus. Every abortion is a baby crucified. Sin.
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By: Daryl on February 25, 2011
at 11:16 PM
If you decide that a fetus has rights or should be given a voice then you cannot suddenly decide that a fetus from rape does not have those same rights. The same goes for a fetus with severe abnormalities or one that will produce a fatal pregnancy for the mother. If you allow an abortion because of rape, incest, or danger to the mother, then you must allow abortion for any reason. That is why we have a right to choose rather than a right to life. Giving rights to a fetus denies rights to the mother. BTW sonograms are pretty standard practice with abortions. They are for medical reasons not moral reasons. One man’s morality is another man’s folly. Rick Perry is a fool.
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By: Deedie on February 25, 2011
at 11:13 PM
Much love to Scott!!!!
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By: Deb on February 25, 2011
at 11:04 PM
wasn’t able to go through all of the comments however from what i did read…
Noah you are an arrogant jerk “my baby my choice” i hope that came from “your stalker” because no sir its your wife’s choice. Its a good thing she listens to you or just happens to agree with you. She is lucky to have a smooth pregnancy, you have very little say in how it goes, glad you think you control her pregnancy though.
we have a baby girl 6 months old. we are lucky to give her a loving home and she will always be well loved by us and the rest of her family. we are lucky and truly blessed. it was a seriously rough pregnancy and very touch n’ go for both of us. we had things show up that were not normal and at no fault of mine or my husbands just a “it happens even in normal pregnancies” type thing that further testing showed was normal. after that were other complications with my health that were unavoidable (genetics are great, not) so i was on bed rest early, had contractions really early on, and went into preterm labor twice before she was born. They were able to stop it the first time, thankfully. again we are lucky and blessed to both be healthy and happy.
you claimed to be pro choice in one post (unless that too was your stalker) however this is not a pro choice law he’s trying to pass this a very pro life law with no choice in that matter at all
i don’t believe the government has any right to be part of these decisions.
It is the woman who has to carry the baby and suffer being sick and hopefully thats in a best case scenario the man does not have to throw up for random smells, get light headed, dizzy, or worse. My husband did not have to deal with the problems i had during the pregnancy, he was supportive and took care of me but he personally did not know what it felt like. It sounds like you and your wife are having a problem free pregnancy, thats wonderful, but that doesn’t mean that is normal, not that mine was either
i did see one commenter post about setting up laws for men if they are going to set up laws for women – thats a good one 🙂 made me laugh 🙂 we will never see something like that happen but i would just be happy if they kept their laws away from the female body…
okay i addressed the points i saw, way too many times you said it wasn’t your post it was a stalker so i hope i addressed the right ones.
i am gratefully my husband admitted to not knowing what i was going through but still tried to help me
basically i feel the government shouldn’t get a say in my body, not that i do would do some of the things they want to control but still its not their choice its mine. i know this is going way back but i remember when there was a huge deal about piercing certain female body parts, again not something i would do but i didn’t like the idea of the government saying i couldn’t do it.
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By: Tra on February 25, 2011
at 9:04 PM
I do not understand the connection. How does taking a moral stand on abortion equate to hypocritical thinking of less government?
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By: tammyharper on February 25, 2011
at 5:15 PM
Exactly Peas.. ATttta boy Weiner.. Give em hell….
They want the strictest interpretation of the Constitution too except when it comes to amending the Constitution and making marriage ONLY between a man and a woman. They are hell bent on making sure we “remain” a Judeo-Christian nation even though the Constitution says the government should remain free from religion. They want no socialized medicine except when it comes to veterans and medicare. They want family values except…… well you get the picture.
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By: lori on February 25, 2011
at 2:02 PM
Republicans are all for less government regulation, unless it means the right to regulate a woman’s uterus. They don’t want government to get between a patient and their doctor unless it means making sure that poor women don’t have access to a legal procedure.
Congressman Weiner calling out hypocritical Republicans
PEACE ~ Δ
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By: Whirled Peas Δ on February 25, 2011
at 12:47 PM
You know, Mageen, I really do love West Virginia – warts and all. It pains me to see it in its current condition, and one of the unfortunate things of incipient old age is that you have a very long memory, because I remember it when it was not so.
My older brother (79 tomorrow!) always said that those who really run that state have a vested interest in keeping everyone ignorant and poor; he and I never agreed on much, but as I have gotten older I see the wisdom in his words. If you want to see a great movie, get “Matewan” – a John Sales movie starring James Earl Jones. It is a recap of the WV Mine Wars of the ‘twenties, which culminated with what became known as the Matewan Massacre. The character of Sid Hatfield, sheriff of Mingo County (known later as “Bloody Mingo”) is absolutely compelling. If he ain’t a real Hillbilly, he sure studied it up pretty good. After the Massacre, Mother Jones stood on the capitol steps in Charleston and held up a Baldwin-Felts mine guard’s bloody, bullet-riddled overcoat and observed that it was the “first time I have ever seen a Felts man’s coat decorated to suit me.” A time in history that very, very few Americans have any idea about.
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By: PFesser on February 25, 2011
at 7:11 AM
Delurker, thanks for the thought. Things are going well for husband and consequently for the rest of us. PFesser, I vividly remember West Virginia in the early 1960’s and when I got back to my own home hundreds of miles away I thanked God for where I had landed. I saw WV as Misery Central courtesy of coal companies et al. that sucked the life out of it. As for teen pregnancy, I recall 14 year old brides married to 19 year old husbands, both of whom quit school for their own reasons, tried to make it in WV but finally threw in the towel and left to live in a state where the economy was much more diversified and vibrant. They were neighbors of mine and what they had to tell me about WV gave my hair the permanent I didn’t have to pay for.
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on February 25, 2011
at 6:32 AM
Um, Craig, them”Virginians” or virgins are actually umpteen degree black belt and are fully armed with them things that leave a lot of blowback. How come them jihadists cannot envision them that way? Well, the times they are achangin’ what with all the Muslim countries at the top of Africa, at the bottom of the Arabian peninsula and elsewhere offloading their dictators and according to the experts, making Al Quada jihadists irrelevant. Hmmmm. Well, when Osama bin Laden and his buddies cash in their 401K’s and retire, maybe then I’ll believe it.
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on February 25, 2011
at 6:21 AM
I’m a mother Craig, I did correct my children as needed, but I think my daughter took another direction, ugh. You did ask me that question Craig, but I just don’t get it?????????? I am forever forgetting to put a negative contraction on my own words. Think it is time for me to write academically and avoid contractions on here. No such thing as a former mother of course.
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By: No one's puppet on February 24, 2011
at 11:10 PM
Maybe we are too hard on Noah. He is the father of a wanted child, and in happy circumstances.However, he seems to lack the intellect to think outside the box and consider pregnant women less fortunate. The idea that abortion is a form of birth control is preposterous.
If he doesnt believe in abortion, than by all means, dont get one! oops.. I guess HE isnt the one that is pregnant!
He has never faced being raped, or finding himself in a circumstance that the pregnancy is not something he can deal with. What about the pregnant woman that will die? Should the father say yes, let her die as long as the pregnancy is viable?
I hope he has a healthy child, but he has a very narrow point of view. The world is NOT black and white, and his belief is not the only one that is right. Do NOT paint everyone with the same brush.
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By: striped planet on February 24, 2011
at 11:08 PM
NOP..I have to ask if I have not before..Are you a former English teacher?
Or is there such a thing?
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By: Craig on February 24, 2011
at 9:42 PM
Hey Poolman..
How bout them apples…
I live in a hot bed of terrorists.
Man..I spend all day doing taxes at the dining room table in time to find that Lubbock is harboring the next terrorist bomber that wants 72 Virginian’s.
Sorry Mageen in Old Virginny..thats a pun..
My right wing roots just came out.
And they say that racial profiling does not work. Let’s see 20 year old Saudi comes to America. Gets here in 08 ..Wants to study Chemical Engineering..orders HAZ MAT suit from E-BAY. Accumulates 2 out of three chemicals and already has the physical hardware to complete the bomb or bombs. Only the last Transport company flagged the last chemical needed and as rumored here in Lubbock..his mailing address buddy declined the last shipment.
Who would have thought in the middle of flat land cotton fields a Jihad would be declared?
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By: Craig on February 24, 2011
at 9:39 PM
PFesser,
They themselves , the oncologist’s called yesterday and were told the same as we were. “It will be another week to ten days”, according to the Doctor’s/Research assistant in Dallas.
Peace Yayall.
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By: Craig on February 24, 2011
at 9:28 PM
Craig –
I don’t know why it is taking so long. The only lab tests I am familiar with that take that kind of time are cultures for hard-to-grow bugs like TB or other AFBs, and her problem is not infectious. I wouldn’t think they would try to grow the cells in culture, but maybe that is it…hmmm. What does your doc say? You should be able to obtain at least an explanation. The medical system can be pretty irritating sometimes, but you shouldn’t have to put up with this…I would recommend calling your oncologist and ask what the heck’s going on…
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By: PFesser on February 24, 2011
at 9:22 PM
Loved the words/definitions, pfesser. 😆
I’ll have to cut and paste and share.
Hang in there Craig. Val is on my daily prayer list. I’m waiting for a good report. Keep upbeat.
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By: poolman on February 24, 2011
at 9:16 PM
Craig, I might ding you, but not for misspelling, certainly not for misspelling, that would be hypocritical of me. Sorry for Val and your long wait, must be just driving you crazy.
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By: No one's puppet on February 24, 2011
at 7:27 PM
The House Committee in TX approved this bill today. Apparently it is the highest priority in the state because it is the first thing passed to date. What a bunch of morons . . . . .
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By: Brenda on February 24, 2011
at 4:59 PM
Good to hear Lori. Yep they or should I say I’ve learned that many in-roads have been made into all forms of cancer.
They took four nodes and 4 vials of blood and sent to three labs and to the one place in Phoenix that’s doing the Gnome research into triple negative un-differentiated cell cancer. As I have said before I don’t know if Val has won the lottery by having this “rare” cancer or not. Perhaps the research and cure can be that dramatic as well?
Perhaps Pfesser can tell me why it takes more than two weeks for results?
Are they on smoke breaks or does it take that long to put in a petrie dish and grow?
And…NOP will probably “ding” me for misspelling petrie…
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By: Craig on February 24, 2011
at 4:01 PM
Grrrrr Craig that must be so frustrating for you and Val! Sure do hope you get your results SOON! Does it normally take this long for results?
My BFF’s Mom is doing great since her surgery Craig. She was only in the hospital a day and was baking cupcakes 3 days later! She does have to have some follow up treatments though. I think they begin next week. But overall her quality of life post-op has been great. How far they have come in that respect eh?
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By: lori on February 24, 2011
at 3:26 PM
HOwdy PFesser and all…
Still waiting for news from the labs on the biopsy. Its been a month now since Val had any treatments. Two weeks post op yesterday..and They still want to wait for lab results. In mean time the lymph nodes are getting larger in both her underarm and neck. The area where they extracted the four nodes under her arm is painful and has now filled and been drained twice. Plus her mind is starting to wander as she counts the days of nothing happening to fight back at the cancer.
Later…all
Lori..How is your BFF doing since her surgery?
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By: Craig on February 24, 2011
at 3:12 PM
A friend sent this to me last night. Sometimes you just have to share:
Washington Post’s “Mensa Invitational” which once again asked readers to take any word from the dictionary, alter it by adding, subtracting, or changing one letter, and supply a new definition.
Here are the winners:
1. Cashtration (n.): The act of buying a house, which renders the subject financially impotent for an indefinite period of time.
2. Ignoranus: A person who is both stupid and an asshole.
3. Intaxication: Euphoria at getting a tax refund, which lasts until you realize it was your money to start with.
4. Reintarnation: Coming back to life as a hillbilly.
5. Bozone (n.): The substance surrounding stupid people that stops bright ideas from penetrating. The bozone layer, unfortunately, shows little sign of breaking down in the near future.
6. Foreploy: Any misrepresentation about yourself for the purpose of getting laid.
7.Giraffiti: Vandalism spray-painted very, very high
8.Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn’t get it.
9. Inoculatte: To take coffee intravenously when you are running late.
10. Osteopornosis: A degenerate disease. (This one got extra credit.)
11. Karmageddon: It’s like, when everybody is sending off all these really bad vibes, right? And then, like, the Earth explodes and it’s like, a serious bummer.
12. Decafalon (n.): The grueling event of getting through the day consuming only things that are good for you.
13. Glibido: All talk and no action.
14. Dopeler Effect: The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
15. Arachnoleptic Fit (n.): The frantic dance performed just after you’ve accidentally walked through a spider web.
16. Beelzebug (n.): Satan in the form of a mosquito, that gets into your bedroom at three in the morning and cannot be cast out.
17. Caterpallor (n.): The color you turn after finding half a worm in the fruit you’re eating.
The Washington Post has also published the winning submissions to its yearly contest, in which readers are asked to supply alternate meanings for common words. And the winners are:
1. Coffee, n. The person upon whom one coughs.
2. Flabbergasted, adj. Appalled by discovering how much weight one has gained.
3. Abdicate, v. To give up all hope of ever having a flat stomach.
4. Esplanade, v, To attempt an explanation while drunk.
5. Willy-nilly, adj. Impotent.
6. Negligent, adj.Absentmindedly answering the door when wearing only a nightgown.
7. Lymph, v. To walk with a lisp.
8. Gargoyle, n. Olive-flavored mouthwash.
9. Flatulence, n. Emergency vehicle that picks up someone who has been run over by a steamroller.
10. Balderdash, n. A rapidly receding hairline.
11. Testicle n. A humorous question on an exam.
12. Rectitude, n. The formal, dignified bearing adopted by proctologists.
13. Pokemon, n.A Rastafarian proctologist.
14. Oyster, n. A person who sprinkles his conversation with yiddishisms.
15. Frisbeetarianism, n. The belief that, after death, the soul flies up onto the roof and gets stuck there.
16. Circumvent, n. An opening in the front of boxer shorts worn by Jewish men.
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By: PFesser on February 24, 2011
at 1:45 PM
Good article in Mother Jones about income and wealth distribution in America:
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph
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By: PFesser on February 24, 2011
at 12:11 PM
Mageen in Old Virginny,
How is your husband..?
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By: Craig on February 24, 2011
at 10:55 AM
Peas, Lori,
Monty Python lives! “Every sperm is sacred”…cackle, snort, wheeze,…gasp!
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By: hillsmom on February 24, 2011
at 10:16 AM
jean opined:
“Oh, yes. Then there is the “Compassionate Conservative.” In my book that is an oxymoron. It may have been a clever campaign slogan, but there is a VAST, VAST difference between “compassion” and “empathy.”’
It’s no oxymoron. Probably the very best descriptions I have seen are actually in “Atlas.” Although a work of fiction, there are several multi-page, well thought-out, logical, thorough and convincing explanations of how a libertarian (conservative to some degree) society leads inexorably to the greatest good for all and of how pure socialism of necessity leads to slavery. I’m not that much younger than you, Jean, and I’ve watched it happen exactly as predicted. to wit:
Having grown up in West Virginia, I can give you a clear, first hand account of how the do-gooders and social engineers thoroughly destroyed a vibrant culture and turned it into a culture of handouts, teen pregnancy and exploitation. West Virginia is rotting to its core, and it can be traced directly to its uneducated and dole-receiving population – which did not exist before the socialists’ Great Society decided to take WV on as a project.
I call them Roosevelt’s grandchildren, and they are not a pretty sight.
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By: PFesser on February 24, 2011
at 10:00 AM
Scott,
When someone comments in an intelligent, well thought out opinion as yours is it should be acknowledged. I for one appreciate you putting into words what I could not.
IMO – When someone says every life (in my world, all living things on this planet) is sacred or valuable, I think Yes but is it really?
If you look how humans treat one another and the living world around them it is difficult to believe they value any one or any thing. Well, perhaps the value is in how that life can make them money.
I have moments that I feel the day the Creator created Humans, He/She should have gone fishing.
I think it is important to remember we can agree or disagree and put our point across without being rude or disrespectful.
Thank you.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 23, 2011
at 10:46 PM
Helen, you’re the all-time best leadersheep! Off to make a donation to Planned Parenthood in your honor…
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By: carjobo on February 23, 2011
at 10:27 PM
Peas – love it!
Jean, I’ll have to check out that blog. Thanks for sharing it.
Mageen, I hope everything is going OK in your world.
Nice to meet you, Tammy. I don’t agree with some of the things you said but respect your thoughtful post.
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By: delurkergurl on February 23, 2011
at 6:51 PM
I am pro-choice as I feel it does the best at being inclusive to most every situation. Our home is pro-life, that is our choice. Where I feel I have a problem with pro-lifers is that no one seems to be allowed to speak on the behalf of the unborn child.
I understand what the law is. I understand what rulings have been made on this topic. My discussion puts aside all of the things we already know about the facts and is rather a talk on what is moral and fair.
Ultimately the woman should have the final say. However, while I have not read all the posts on here I think I get the general understanding of all the sides being presented. It takes two to make a child. Both contributors should have a say in what the final outcome is on this potential new life. If you are going to exclude the man from all decisions then you also have to exclude him from all responsibilities if he so chooses. I do not think it is fair to cry foul when a man turns into a deadbeat dad if you are not going to allow him a say on the topic of whether to abort or not. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
I have seen a lot of special cases presented as reasons why we should or shouldn’t have the law as it is. Most women do not get pregnant by rape. As such we should not base our decisions on special cases. I can see where we make provisions for extraordinary circumstances, but to base a law on special circumstances seems to me to be unwise.
When I first heard about this proposed new law my first impression was that someone was looking out for the rights of a being who cannot speak for themselves. I have seen both sides of the coin on abortion. Women who thought it was the right choice and those that regret the choice. I prefer to be fully informed when I make a choice, especially when it is as profound as this choice is. The arguments on who is going to pay for it seem totally besides to point to me. Again, we are in my discussion talking about what is right and what is wrong. Morality should not have a price tag attached to it.
I also understand the repercussions of choosing life. I was born into a dysfunctional and abusive family. Both of my parents were teenagers when they had me. Both had alcohol and anger issues and they divorced when I was 11 years old. Despite all of that I am glad my parents chose life. While I do not consider myself the perfect parent I think I do very well by my children and I feel I make a positive contribution to my community. We are not dependent on the state for our livelihood, as a matter of fact we employ 6 people on our tree farm. While I may or may not be the norm, I was given a chance, and a chance is worthy of a discussion on this topic.
My goal is not to change anyone’s mind. I have just enough energy each day to take care of my own home. I do feel all 3 sides of the coin deserve fair representation on the topic of abortion, that being the mother, the father, and the child. Since the child cannot speak I can only conceive of one way to give it representation. We who can speak defining by law what that child is due. I think this law speaks to that. You may agree or disagree, but this notion that the government wants inside my uterus I think is unjustified.
I would rather that there always be two sides to an issue and somewhere in the middle we find common ground where we can agree.
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By: tammyharper on February 23, 2011
at 6:10 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
Good to see you posting again, Bruddah Peas. Your thoughts and insughts are always right on target. Actually, with a few exceptions, that is the essence of this blog. I really don’t have that much experience with a whole slew of blogs. And with limited time (and experise!) to spend on the computer, I like to concentrate on only those of quality and substance.
Speaking of which, I recently ran across a brand new blog that I find intriguing. It is highly sophisticated with a cunning twist. It is certainly not for the literal minded. It shows promise of being an entertaining social commentary without being caustic. However, it will be attractive to only erudite thinkers. No doubt it will sail right over the heads of many casual observers. This is the link: http://mypalpavo.com/2011/01/22/meet-my-pal-pavo/
The chapter sequence can be found in the links under the opening picture.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on February 23, 2011
at 5:25 PM
Sofia, Georgia and some other states are taking their lessons from the Romania of 20 years ago and the present day El Salvador, both of them police states and unwelcome by so much of the rest of the world largely because of their smell. Such tripe, if it does make it out into the world, will undoubtedly end up in the Supreme Court.
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on February 23, 2011
at 4:09 PM
LMAO Peas…
Condoms are just a sneaky way of having a very early term abortion!
Every sperm is scared!
Priceless…
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By: lori on February 23, 2011
at 3:29 PM
.
.
The Republican War on Women!
PEACE ~ Δ
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By: Whirled Peas Δ on February 23, 2011
at 2:36 PM
Those Republicans real love children.
http://jezebel.com/#!5766867/republicans-fight-to-loosen-regulation-of-childrens-products
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By: No one's puppet on February 23, 2011
at 10:48 AM
These Republicans are sure wasting a lot of time on the taxpayers’ dollar, aren’t they?
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By: No one's puppet on February 23, 2011
at 9:08 AM
Not to be outdone, State of Georgia joins the fray.
“Legislation recently introduced to the Georgia legislature by House Republican Bobby Franklin would make abortion the legal equivalent of murder and require miscarriages to be investigated by authorities. ”
“would require miscarriages to be reported by hospitals and other medical institutions, and a fetal death certificate issued.”
They say they’re “protecting innocent life,” I say they’ve invented a new form of torture for women. Just what a grieving woman needs after her miscarriage, her government just twisting the knife in her guts.
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By: HRH sofia EQ on February 23, 2011
at 7:28 AM
People seem to forget that life isn’t as simple as we would like. That phrases like the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are simply that, phrases of what in a perfect world might be accommodated.
In reality you have no right to life. In fact life is one of the more fragile and capriciously held things in this world. Life is fleeting, and in many circumstances it can be extinguished without thought, care, or recourse. life is ephemeral. A person adrift in the ocean has no right to life, and may eventually end as food for other life in the ocean. A person crushed in a crumbled building in Christchurch, NZ has no inherent right to continue living.
We subscribe to certain beliefs because it comforts us, and because those beliefs, when applied uniformly and consistently to a society maximizes not only the survival of the society, but of the individuals that make up that society. Life isn’t sacred, it’s scared and fighting to remain in its current station. There is no guarantee for anyones life. And in some situations, to continue survival a person has to make a decision that they would rather not. Hence we have abortions.
Before abortions, societies practiced infanticide, and some still do. I submit that that practice is much crueler to parents, siblings, relatives, and the new-born, than is an abortion. The circumstances that cause people to engage in these practices are not the normal, run-of-the-mill, day-to-day circumstances that most of us would call our lives. They are extenuating and extreme circumstances in their personal lives. Some people may find a way around these, some may decide that they will be destroyed if they do not abort.
In no measure can the decision be called an impulse or done lightly. It costs the woman dearly, if not immediately, then it will in her future. They pay to cost to continue their life. The decision to allow the government to intrude upon a woman and decide for them that they are not competent to make that decision without having additional emotional stress and anguish placed upon them is an act of extreme SADISM. An act which directly comments upon the moral and ethical values of the people who would support that act of cruelty.
I would not want to be someone who tortures another person and revels in that fact.
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By: Scott on February 22, 2011
at 10:59 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
I put up this comment quite some time ago. Perhaps this is a good time for us ‘Old Timers’ to refresh our memories and give some ‘liberal food for thought’ to newcomers.
I’ve been doing some reading, more like studying, as it is one of the things I like to do. There have been innumerable studies done on this subject across different disciplines – Psychology, Sociology, Anthropology and History. Here, I am paraphrasing, however, occasionally I use some of the same exact words and phrases.
Theses are a few of the characteristics that denote an “Authoritarian Personality”, how and why he/she got that way. This usually goes for all cultures, in all times, not just American or Western Culture. Starting with the family, the FATHER is the ultimate authority. He is big and strong and what he says goes. “Do as I say and keep your mouth shut – – or else!” The opposite of ‘big and strong’ is ‘small and weak’.
The FATHER’S job is to protect and provide for his family, a VERY tall order, which he takes seriously. When he is out and about slaying dragons and hunting for big chunks of red meat to feed the family, he TEMPORARILY transfers his authority to the mother. Fine. The kids misbehave, they are doing ‘wrong’ and must be punished. “Wait till your FATHER gets home!” How often have we heard or said that? One of the ‘wrong’ things is tattling. Yet, when Mom snitches on us to Dad, is she punished? No. The kids are. A strange inconsistency. This is only one of many, many more not-making-sense-such-scenarios.
The kids learn that someday when they grow up to be big and strong and are always RIGHT, they can do as they like and nobody can punish them since, by then, they have all the authority. There can be no ‘OR ELSE!’. In the meantime, they mostly do what they are told and keep their mouths shut – generation after generation. If they do happen to do something ‘wrong’; or of equal importance, fail to do something they were taught they were supposed to do, maybe nobody tattles so there is no punishment. But they know they DESERVE to be punished, because they know they ‘done wrong’. (Guilt.) Still, if they can find an excuse or two or somebody else to blame it on, then they never were ‘wrong’ in the first place!
Of course when they do grow up and find out that not everyone believes the same ‘rights’ and ‘wrongs’ that they were raised to believe, then the usual reaction is either fear, anger or both. These emotions are much easier to ignite than to extinguish.
Where does all this authority come from to begin with? GOD the FATHER. George Washington the FATHER of our country. (Six feet four?) The HOLY FATHER. Lots and lots of FATHERS!!!
There is a flip side though. The “Nurturing Personality.” Yes, there is authority and yes, right and wrong. Instead of blind OBEDIENCE and punishment, we have to ‘fess up’, express GENUINE remorse, make restitution and receive GENUINE forgiveness, not REVENGE/PUNISHMENT. Demonstrations of LOVE and APPROVAL help the process along. This involves EMPATHY, the ability to actually feel and identify with the experiences of others – good, bad or indifferent.
(Example, the husband/boyfriend who gets sick as a dog when his wife/girlfriend goes into childbirth labor. My husband was kicked out of the labor room 50+ years ago when I went into delivery. He didn’t know what else to do, so he went home to wait for the phone call when it was over. He smoked one of the traditional cigars a FATHER is supposed to pass out when his child is born. As a non-smoker, he got violently ill and wound up in tougher shape than I ever was! I was kinda busy.)
Most people are a combination of the “Authoritarian” and the “Nurturing” personalities in different respects.
In the current but usual political climate, there are the Traditional/Conservative/Right/Republicans and the Progressive/Liberal/Left/Democrats. Did you know that the French word for “Left” is “Gauche”? Besides also meaning “clumsy” or “awkward”, it has an equal definition – “sinister”.
Oh, yes. Then there is the “Compassionate Conservative.” In my book that is an oxymoron. It may have been a clever campaign slogan, but there is a VAST, VAST difference between “compassion” and “empathy.”
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on February 22, 2011
at 9:26 PM
PFesser,
Just a friendly FYI:
(There was a conversation of a pill in the 70’s, perhaps it never got past the testing stage. I remember my husband’s opinion of it very well!)
For the first time, a safe, effective and reversible hormonal male contraceptive appears to be within reach. Several formulations are expected to become commercially available within the near future. Men may soon have the options of a daily pill to be taken orally, a patch or gel to be applied to the skin, an injection given every three months or an implant placed under the skin every 12 months, according to Seattle researchers.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3543478/ns/health-sexual_health/
Birth Control for Men? 3 Promising Advances – February 21, 2011
http://www.alternet.org/drugs/149748/birth_control_for_men_3_promising_advances
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 22, 2011
at 8:24 PM
Oh good grief, PFesser, That’s the last time I try a bit of humor or didn’t you read the following:
“Just for the copy and paste police, the above is not my writing but is going through cyberspace under different names with the same message.”
You people are just way too serious. Jon Stewart thought it was funny.
Of course we have a problem with education today. Even if a teacher is good he/she can’t teach because they have become the police/patrol whatever. Who can educate under the circumstances.
Hey Whirled Peas, I’m with you:
“I’m still keeping an eye on this place. Just got tired of the same old flatulence from the wingnut peanut gallery”
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By: Raji on February 22, 2011
at 6:15 PM
And I am married to a man, everyday I thank him for something and I praise him to all my friends and family. I’ve always liked real men.
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By: No one's puppet on February 22, 2011
at 5:47 PM
PFesser it a deal, you can have gorilla; I tap Cynthia as a friend, a mentor, or just a good example of womanhood.
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By: No one's puppet on February 22, 2011
at 5:44 PM
gorilla –
You’re a real hard-ass. You look people straight in the eye and tell them what you think and call ’em out when they try to crawfish.
I like that. Keep up the good work.
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By: PFesser on February 22, 2011
at 12:25 PM
Raj noted:
“students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter”
That’s not their job. And that which *Is* their job, they are not doing.
“and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!”
No they don’t. *That* is the crux of the problem, isn’t it?
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By: PFesser on February 22, 2011
at 12:19 PM
Why come you not post more often? Is because you are old or not have so much to say all the time? I like you post very much.
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By: Jhallabadda Kushnizavik on February 22, 2011
at 10:13 AM
I know Raji. Some folks just gotta hate.
It’s in their DNA, I guess.
Too bad. It seems to be quite contagious, too. It is quite a motivator. Oh well. C’est la vie.
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By: poolman on February 22, 2011
at 10:01 AM
?
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 22, 2011
at 9:40 AM
Gee Poolman, see what I get for trying to inject a bit of humor.
Jon Stewart just did a long & very funny piece about the the same topic.
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By: Raji on February 22, 2011
at 9:10 AM
Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
C-c-c-courage.
I guess it isn’t all it’s cracked up to be, wiz.
Ask the lyin.
Meanwhile, this is an interesting way to record history.
Musical nukes. Gee, I wonder what else is on the winds…
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By: poolman on February 22, 2011
at 9:08 AM
an.00800lbgorilla
I never said I did not need a man. I like men, some I have loved.
What I don’t need is a man who has yet to prove to himself that he is a man.
I am not the one he needs to convince.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 22, 2011
at 8:15 AM
Poolman, you may not “recall saying anything derogatory about Rutherford’s comments.” Who are you “sharing tea and pie” with around here?
Damn straight I’ve made “derogatory comments” about Rutherford on his own site. And I have the courage to stand behind them and debate a point I believe in. I also have the courage to admit when another has a point worthy of consideration. You’ll never find me hiding behind a feigned aversion to debate and playing victim after the one I slung poo at responds (and in this case quiet politely).
Keep on fakin’ it Poolman. . . I’ll see you at Rutherford’s. . . and enjoy that tea and pie.
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By: El Tigre on February 22, 2011
at 7:24 AM
Well, I just knew this would all shift to the federal budget eventually. I got the hint when the Repugs went after anything to do with the female anatomy, particularly the uterus. My goodness! How they manage to ally certain things! Have read as much of the federal budget just disclosed to the public as I could possibly tolerate. Those areas that were meant to raise this country to a humanitarian level by at least trying to alleviate human misery are and very likely will remain the third rail of politics. This year please note that the Pentagon has put their foot down on certain things they do not want in much the same way as in the old saying if nominted I will not run if elected I will not serve. OK? Everyone got that? What the Repugs do not want you to know is that this country has been for some years now trying to pay down the load left by the Reagan Administration. Remember that small government administration? The one that actually created more governement? As for Boehner, he just put himself in the same league with Queen Marie Antoinette of Let Them Eat Cake fame when he did a So Be It concerning the plight of laid off federal workers, be they bureaucrats, janitors, nurses, doctors, police, etc. My next question to Boehner is, which national park have you decided to sell in order to balance the budget? This is not an implausible question or move. I live near one of the largest military reservations in the country and about 20 or so years ago there was an idea to part with some of its land to private developers. This idea never got out of the warming oven, but oh what a fuss it created while in such comfy quarters. Yes, R & D is a super-huge industry in this country, especially for stuff of military application. What is of even more $$$$ is the budget that covers all the secret stuff that would inevitably end up in the area of black ops. Not even the president, this one or previous ones, know all about this area and are kept unawares so they can have plausible deniability. So folks, I leave you with that. I owe, I owe, its off to work I go (while I still have a job).
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on February 22, 2011
at 7:18 AM
And the hi fiving continues…
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 22, 2011
at 6:25 AM
Cynthia, count me among your many fans. 🙂
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By: delurkergurl on February 22, 2011
at 6:14 AM
Miss Colostomy bag, since yowant to talk about R&D, could you point out how many scientific breakthroughs have come from HHS?
Also, since it is HHS who manages Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, don’t you think it would be a little more intellectually honest to point out how those three programs along account for about 65% of the federal budget. You see, defense is only about 3-4% of the federal budget.
Please see my above comment about fact, screed and shit…
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 22, 2011
at 4:25 AM
I’ve been away, so I’ve missed a bit and will try to catch up.
“I will admit I am no match for people like you.” – Cynthia
I’m glad we clarified that.
Now, let us reconcile this with the fact that it was you who said, “IMO. Men resent the fact women have the ability to create a life. One thing men can not do and so the need to control it.” Doesn’t sound much like a women looking to balance the relationship. Couple this with the I don’t need a man BS that is skewed all over this thread and it is not hard to understand why the word hypocrisy keeps coming to mind.
Should there be a pill for men, probably, but there isn’t so until there is, stop blaming me for not taking the pill.
You accuse me of not coming here to exchange ideas, which is false. I think the puppet said what you’re too afraid to say:
Exactly what some of us have accused the vast majority of this thread of. My facts were poignant because they flew in the face of the screed you guys kept going on and on about. This thread turned into a mental vacuum, devoid of reason and fact long, long ago.
So you and the puppet and everyone else can hi five each other over your deft ability to sling shit, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is still shit.
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 22, 2011
at 4:17 AM
Hi Congenial Gang,
There are some who come to this site who are hung up on ‘facts and figures’, insisting on people doing their research but not citing the sources of their own. Well, I have a few ‘facts and figures’ to present, but I don’t think you are gonna like them.
I have worked pretty extensively with the science of statistics, enough to have a healthy skepticism for the reliability and validity of them and thus their usefulness, especially for predictive purposes. They can change, almost on an hourly basis as events unfold. Then there is the ‘Fudge Factor’, that is the propensity to find the hoped-for outcome. More formally it is known as the ‘Confirmation Bias’, “the tendency to look for and perceive evidence consistent with our hypotheses and to deny, dismiss or distort evidence that is not.” The classic example of this is the guy interviewing for a job with a corporate CEO. The contemptuous CEO asked, “How much is 2 plus 2?” The guy slyly replied, “How much do you want it to be?”
As the national budget battle rages on right down to the wire, here are some ‘facts and figures’. Summarized AFTER the ‘fact’ they may have more credibility. They have to do with the amount of money spent by the Federal Government for SCIENTIFIC R&D in 2009. That is the most recent year when accurate figures have been made available. Remember, in 2009 we were still in the aftermath of eight years of the Bush Administration’s policies, and to some degree, still are.
All numbers are in millions of dollars.
Defense: $56,224.
Health and Human Services: $29,263.
As you can see, R & D is about twice as much as Health and Human Services, give or take a mil here and there. So the DOD gets by far the lion’s share – no questions asked.
Each of these is broken down into sub-agencies.
Example, Under Defense: Veterans’ Affairs: $442.
Under HHS, here are a few examples:
National Institutes of Health: 28,533.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: $504.
Food and Drug Administration: 108. (Another one of those pesky bureaucracies that want to bother us with a bunch of regulations.)
These are some of the other agencies such as Homeland Security: $628, Education: $343, Justice: $66, Housing and Urban Development: $38.
I think you get the picture of the nation’s priorities, and how overwhelmingly Defense trumps all other government investments.
There are plenty more sub-agencies and departments, but the ‘facts and figures’ are a little tedious to accurately record here and probably even more boring for you to read.
If anyone wants to challenge my sources, they are available to the public through the Freedom of Information Act. You are welcome to do your own research. You really shouldn’t expect mamma or grandma to do your homework for you.
What’s that again about wanting to cut spending for Planned Parenthood, uh, in the interest of eventually balancing the budget? I forgot, how much was that? But then, the DOD always needs lots and lots of warriors so it’s best for women to continue to produce them as fast as they can.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on February 22, 2011
at 1:31 AM
Tigre, I don’t recall saying anything derogatory about Rutherford’s comments. Certainly not anywhere close to some of those you’ve made toward him on his own site. I think his initial comments were taken as a personal affront toward Claire and that colored everyone’s view of him, right or wrong. Some here even expressed agreement with some of his comments. But don’t let that affect your conclusion.
Keeping it real…
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By: poolman on February 21, 2011
at 9:35 PM
“El Tigre – The same right whenever human life is extinguished — all the right in the world.”
“Another topic of concern. Medicaid is cutting back on pre-natal care for pregnant women.”
The value of a human life is determined by the value of it’s Trust Fund.
Peace
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By: Cynthia on February 21, 2011
at 8:59 PM
Poolman, yeah, I see how you all share “your pie and tea” with those that disagree, like that insufferable bastard Rutherford. That is if by “pie and tea” you mean “contempt and ridicule.”
Way to keep it real Poolman.
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By: El Tigre on February 21, 2011
at 8:58 PM
Just for the copy and paste police, the above is not my writing but is going through cyberspace under different names with the same message.
Another topic of concern. Medicaid is cutting back on pre-natal care for pregnant women. I don’t think I need to elaborate on the consequences.
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By: Raji on February 21, 2011
at 6:34 PM
Love your sense of humor Whirled Peas, it has been sorely missed 🙂
A bit of a change of subject. Are you keeping up with the conflict in Wisconsin which could trickle down through other states?
Are you sick of highly paid teachers?
Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do – babysit!
We can get that for less than minimum wage.
That’s right. Let’s give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan– that equals 6 1/2 hours).
Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day…maybe 30? So that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day.
However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.
LET’S SEE….
That’s $585 X 180= $105,300
per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).
What about those special
education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an
hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year.
Wait a minute — there’s
something wrong here! There sure is!
The average teacher’s salary
(nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days
= $277.77/per day/30
students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!
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By: Raji on February 21, 2011
at 6:25 PM
I for one don’t give a damn the opinion of the animal kingdom from R L.
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By: No one's puppet on February 21, 2011
at 6:17 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
Bruddah Peas, it is always a bright day when I see your avatar and message. Stop by more often!
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on February 21, 2011
at 5:52 PM
Tigger,
Most of us here can share pie and tea and still disagree on politics, religion, education, and culture – among other things. I’m aware that’s quite foreign to you. But then, as far as I can tell, no one forced you to journey or to leave your grafitti here.
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By: poolman on February 21, 2011
at 5:12 PM
Gee Poolman, after reading Puppet’s last comment, where would anybody get the idea that you “porch visitors as one-in-the-same ideologically?”
Enjoy your pie and tea.
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By: El Tigre on February 21, 2011
at 4:06 PM
You’re probably right delurkergurl. These kind don’t feel important unless they can mow down their fellow man on a daily basis. I guess when you grow up playing cowboys and indians or cops and robbers, it’s bound to become ingrained in our psyche. Hope your day is going well.
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By: poolman on February 21, 2011
at 3:54 PM
Could be a copycat cop-out, Poolman, from the hate-fueled “more time than class” contingent. It’s OK, we’ve weathered far worse from far smarter around here.
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By: delurkergurl on February 21, 2011
at 3:41 PM
Thanks for the confidence, Anonymous. However, I checked on your psychology degree and it came up short. Maybe you should just focus on locating your own spine.
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By: poolman on February 21, 2011
at 3:41 PM
Why no, poolman, you’re not a full-blown nutcase at all.
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By: Anonymous on February 21, 2011
at 3:15 PM
That last Anonymous has the flavor of Texan wannabe.
Good to “see” you Whirled. There is much we agree on. Those who think our president actually runs the show are gravely deluded. Of course others see all of us porch visitors as one-in-the-same ideologically. Small and insecure are their minds, really. They read the labels but fail to check the ingredients. Then they bitch like hell when they get heartburn. Sad really. It begs the question…
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By: poolman on February 21, 2011
at 3:10 PM
Still no opinions or thoughts of your own on the matter, eh Sir Links-a-lot?
Lightweight.
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By: Anonymous on February 21, 2011
at 2:47 PM
Ooops…Sorry *elsie09*
Δ
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By: Whirled Peas Δ on February 21, 2011
at 2:14 PM
Hi lori, elise99, Raji, and the rest of teh Gang!
I’m still keeping an eye on this place. Just got tired of the same old flatulence from the wingnut peanut gallery. Speaking of which…anyone seen Noah? 😉
~
PFesser on February 21 – 11:59 AM
“I am still waiting for Viagra/Gingko Biloba – so I can remember what the F… I’m doing.”
Thanks for that. Actually did a 707
*(LOL’ed and flipped over my chair)
~
Read this today and thought of M&H:
Embarrassed Republicans Admit They’ve Been Thinking Of Eisenhower Whole Time They’ve Been Praising Reagan
The GOP’s humiliating blunder was discovered last weekend by RNC chairman Reince Priebus, who realized his party had been extolling “completely the wrong guy” after he watched the History Channel special Eisenhower: An American Portrait.
“When I heard about Eisenhower’s presidential accomplishments—holding down the national debt, keeping inflation in check, and fighting for balanced budgets—it hit me that we’d clearly gotten their names mixed up at some point,” Priebus told reporters. “I couldn’t believe we’d been associating terms like ‘visionary,’ ‘principled,’ and ‘bold’ with President Reagan. That wasn’t him at all—that was Ike.”
“We deeply regret misattributing such a distinguished and patriotic legacy to Mr. Reagan,” Priebus added. “We really screwed up.”
Following his discovery, Priebus directed RNC staffers to inform top Republicans of the error and explain that it was Eisenhower, not Reagan, who carefully managed the nation’s prosperity, warned citizens of the military-industrial complex’s growing influence, and led the country with a mix of firm resolve and humble compassion.
“Wait, you’re telling me Reagan advocated that trickle-down nonsense that was debunked years ago? That was Reagan?” Sen. John Thune (R-SD) said upon hearing of the mistake. “I can’t believe I’ve been calling for a return to Reagan’s America. I feel like an asshole.”
.
.
You know how much ‘I LIKE IKE’ 😉
PEACE ~ Δ
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By: Whirled Peas Δ on February 21, 2011
at 1:47 PM
No. I think we got it. See my comments on February 17th @3:37 and 8:58. Funny how “the debate” continued.
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By: El Tigre on February 21, 2011
at 1:43 PM
What gorilla and others of his ilk just don’t get, is we don’t come here to debate. We keep up on the news, we form our opinions, and we read Helen’s comments as much for the humor as for the facts (although her comments are factual) and it lightens our mood. So if you want to debate go back to R L’s, if we decide, we want to debate you, we know where to find you.
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By: No one's puppet on February 21, 2011
at 12:22 PM
judith –
“Viagra/birth control. Maybe they can call it Vi-Ster.”
I am still waiting for Viagra/Gingko Biloba – so I can remember what the F… I’m doing.
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By: PFesser on February 21, 2011
at 11:59 AM
Jean opined:
“I meant to put this up earlier. Yes, there was research done a few years ago on a birth control pill for men, but it didn’t get far off the drawingboard because:
A.) They weren’t sure men would bother to take it.
B. ) There was an awful lot more interest in erectile disfunction and it would be much easier to persuade men to take a pill for that! No problem taking Viagra.
C.) Funding for basic scientific research is nearly impossible to come by unless there are big bucks to be made from the results.
D.) There is a cultural tradition thingy going back to the Stone Age.”
All wrong. The reason there is no male pill is because it is technically much more difficult to block the production of sperm, which are generated about 1000/second, than to block production of the egg, produced at a rate of one per month.
It is quite easy – and seductive – to let one’s personal gripes about the opposite sex interfere with clear thinking, but realize *that* is exactly what the anti-abortion people want. It’s fun to rail about “getting those men’s hands off our bodies” – I’ve done it myself – but a little research will reveal quite quickly that many of the most effective and popular abortion foes are women. I don’t believe that fomenting a little man-hating among their opponents would be off their radar by any means.
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By: PFesser on February 21, 2011
at 11:50 AM
Gorilla,
This has been said before, but perhaps you just weren’t listening.
Abortion has ALWAYS been a part of womens lives/history. Women in ancient times knew which plants were affective, there where medicine’s that women developed for “slouging off” an unwanted pregnancy. Recipes were handed down from medicine woman to medicine woman. Time passed, the church got involved and suddenly it was evil, wrong, sacrilegious! It did not stop women from taking their unwanted pregnancies into their own hands, it just turned it in to a business for profiteers. The point I am making is that you will never stop abortions, just as you will never stop kids from smoking marijuana or experimenting with alcohol. The wealthy women of America will fly to Canada or Mexico or Europe and have the proceedure done in comfort and safety. The poor American women will be forced to go to back ally clinics where they will be taken advantage of and possibly killed or they will use coat hangers on themselves. There will be many deaths and infections causing infertility. Abortion was made LEGAL and safe to save lives.
Now, I say AGAIN, the POOR women of this country will have no access to safe places to make these decisions. Many of these women have NO insurance, so have no access to the pill, and their men do not want to wear condom’s because it is “like wearing a coat”. You will have a population explosion of the worst kind, these will be unwanted, in many cases unloved children who will need daycares, school lunches, healthcare, education, special education needs, clothing, food, housing, then as they grow into adulthood, JOBS. Where are these going to come from? The current pack of me, me, me conservatives want to defund all of the schools, welfare, food stamps, and healthcare (God knows we cannot give the unwashed masses healthcare!!), there will be no where for these families to turn for help. See the catch 22 here? Uneducated, poor, jobless people tend to have more unwanted children because sex is fun, free and easy and the ONE thing they can enjoy! Too bad if you get pregnant, not MY problem, right?
I can personally attest to the fact that there are PLENTY of men who insist on their partner getting an abortion when she becomes pregnant. Don’t even try to pretend that all men want their children and that all men would be responsible about using condoms. Since you will never stop it, the least you can do is make it safe, legal and available. Having a child should always be a choice. How would YOU solve this problem? Would you be willing to pay extra taxes each month to help these poor families? Even just a few years ago a family could live relatively well from a factory job. They did not have to have an education, but could support their families and keep food on the table. There are no factory jobs any more, Corporations are sending all the work overseas! Where are these people supposed to work? How do they support all the children you would insist they have? Sex education in schools is a good start, but only a start.
Answer these questions, then you may be on to something.
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By: Mikat on February 21, 2011
at 10:34 AM
Q: “What right do we have to argue their choice?”
A:The same right whenever human life is extinguished — all the right in the world.
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By: El Tigre on February 21, 2011
at 10:21 AM
Auntie Jean – what with the trend for all these combination drugs (largely created to extend trademarks), I’d like to propose a new combo.
Viagra/birth control. Maybe they can call it Vi-Ster.
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By: judith on February 21, 2011
at 10:03 AM
Okay, so I lied about lurking!
an.0800lbgorilla
“I don’t have an agenda, except to maybe find a liberal with an ability to argue facts. So far, the search isn’t going so well…” (Gorilla)
Do you want to argue THE facts or argue WITH facts. Your facts on “life style” abortion decisions are hard to argue because……….
IMO, for the Pro-Choice people and commonly found among liberals:
Who you fall in love with, who you marry, how many childen you have or if you choose not to have children, the name you call your god or choose not to, when and how you choose to die are very personal and that individual’s journey through life.
We may agree or disagree with their choice. We may try to advise, inform, support, encourage or discourage. But in the end only they have the right to choose which path they take through life.
What right do we have to argue their choice?
Do you think we should be part of the decision you made when you chose to have a vasectomy?
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 21, 2011
at 9:56 AM
Oh, Helen, what an amazing and powerful reply. Your little set of situations cuts through the noisy politics to the complicated human side of the issue. A heart-felt, compassionate, and civil response – we need more writing like this!
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By: Elissa on February 20, 2011
at 10:06 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
I meant to put this up earlier. Yes, there was research done a few years ago on a birth control pill for men, but it didn’t get far off the drawingboard because:
A.) They weren’t sure men would bother to take it.
B. ) There was an awful lot more interest in erectile disfunction and it would be much easier to persuade men to take a pill for that! No problem taking Viagra.
C.) Funding for basic scientific research is nearly impossible to come by unless there are big bucks to be made from the results.
D.) There is a cultural tradition thingy going back to the Stone Age.
E.) We of the ‘posse’ mentality are and have being trying to change that tradition ever since men reluctantly granted us the power to vote in the United States in 1920 by a Constitutional Amendment. That was long after the Civil War when slaves were granted their freedom by Constitutional Amendment.
F.) Over the years, elements in this country still seem to feel that both of those Amendments were mistakes and they get pretty touchy about them. Personally, I don’t. I believe it is called the long, slow progression of Civilization.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on February 20, 2011
at 9:06 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
Cynthia, Brava! Brava! Brava!
Don’t be a stranger. Come back again soon. Voices like yours need to be heard.
Aloha! Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on February 20, 2011
at 8:02 PM
Cynthia, ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! I need to try making one of those pies since I pick up a bushel a day 🙂
Namaste`
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By: Raji on February 20, 2011
at 7:49 PM
Raji,
Same world!
Peace
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By: Cynthia on February 20, 2011
at 7:28 PM
Cynthia, You have some very good points. On a very humorous note, barn apples in my world may not be the same as your barn apples. I certainly would not put my barn apples in a pie LOL!!!!!!!!!!
Hey, Whirled Peas, good to see you. Thanks for making a pass by and dropping a few words of wisdom 🙂 Hope all is good with you and your world.
Namaste`
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By: Raji on February 20, 2011
at 6:01 PM
an.00000800lbgorilla
I will admit I am no match for people like you. I don’t think you are here to exchange ideas. IMO you are here to argue your facts, your way, so we to come to your conclusion and prove you to be the superior. But what does that achieve? You didn’t come here to listen to others you came to a liberal/Democratic leaning site as a conservative/Republican to pick a fight.
United we stand, divided we fall. There are powers in this country who wish to turn us on each other so we won’t notice we have become a third world country, an oligarhy or the United Corporations of America, what ever. And by the time we find something in common and stop fighting with each other it will be too late, we will have lost all we believe America stand for. But this another day.
You came with your facts and figures on the number of abortions being performed and the reasons why a woman chooses to have a “life style” abortion. I assume you feel it is very selfish, inconsiderate and irresponsible of her to put her needs or wants before that of the fetus. But by your admission she didn’t get pregnant without a man. Yet you say nothing of the man being selfish, inconsiderate and irresponsible for not using a condom or a having vascetomy to prevent him from impregnanting the woman and in putting her in the position of chosing a “life style” abortion. Why condem her but not him? I play you pay! He plays she pays – my point. Understand? As long as the attitude of too many men is that since the woman is the one who gets pregnant it is hers and only her responsibility for birth control – he plays she pays. I offered a possible solution for reducing the number of “life style” abortions.
“Who said a pill for men is taboo? I said, if one existed, men would take it. One doesn’t exist, so your point is?????”
THE POINT IS – WHY IS THERE NO PILL FOR MEN!!!!!!!!!
The male is not that complicated that a reliable, user friendly birth control pill can’t be developed for him. It will not make him less a man, his manhood will remain intact.
The birth control pill for women wasn’t developed because some medical researcher woke up one morning and said if I discover a pill that prevents pregnancy then a woman can become sexually active without fear of pregnancy. This will start a Sexual Revolution. Men won’t have to get married just to have sex they will be able experience many different partners without fear of having to marry the girl if she gets pregnant.
It came about because the medical profession and women asked, begged, pleated, or demanded a solution to unplanned/unwanted pregnancies.
Why aren’t men being more responsible and demanding a pill?
Planned Parenthood may have been founded on hate and racism but is that true today?
It offers not just abortions but medical services to women and men that many would not have access to otherwise. Where is the hate and racism there?
But you may be getting your wish the Republicans (talk about hate and racism) want to de-fund PP and Governor’s doing every thing they can to restrict access to abortions and BC. These politicians, and you if you wish, can put some notches in their belt which they can wear in great pride:
a / for every woman who dies of a self inficted abortion or a the hands of a “butcher”.
a // who commits suicide because she sees no other alternative
a ! for those who just manage to damage themselves in an abortion attempt
a 0 for every newborn who ends up in a toilet or in a dumpster
an X for every child who dies of neglect or abuse at the hands of a frustrated or an overwhelmed caretaker
I fear this may happen but will not be disappointed if I am proven wrong.
Thank You blog for putting up with my rant I will go back to lurking as I have done for the last several years.
Gorilla I gathered a couple of bushels of barn apples earlier. I would be happy to share a piece of barn apple pie with you. With chocolate or maple syrup? Warm or cold?
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 20, 2011
at 5:17 PM
Pfesser,
re: Ford/Hitler
I guess you don’t know your history very well…
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-rroot540.html
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By: poolman on February 20, 2011
at 12:42 PM
Once again, thinking about something said a bit back. Someone wants abortions to be harder to get than a burger.
If you think it is just as easy to get an abortion as it is a burger, think again.
Lines of reasoning to burger. I am hungry, I want a burger. Get burger.
Lines of reasoning to abortion. I am pregnant. (I am going to use a non violent pregnancy happening here.)
Am I really old enough to care for this child? Am I emotionally ready to be a parent? Is my partner? Am I ready to carry a child to term and then give it up for adoption? Can I financially afford to do this? Can I emotionally/mentally afford to do this? How about my partner?
Is abortion an alternative? How do I feel about that? How does my partner feel about that? What are the choices we have to make? How will this affect the relationship? How will it effect how I feel about myself? Who can I talk to about this?
Yep, sure is as easy to get an abortion as it is a burger.
We need to bring back complete and comprehensive sex education in out schools. We need to open up and talk to our children from the day they first ask questions about the differences between boys and girls.
Anecdote about a friend: She is against abortion for herself, yet, she daily helps women safely walk into clinics where abortions are performed because, as she puts it, I am not in their shoes and I do not know what demons they have already wrestled, but it is not my right to make it harder. I prefer to make sure they know they have a shoulder should they need one.
Dona Nobis Pacem.
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By: Kelly on February 20, 2011
at 11:08 AM
Ah Miss Helen, your blog was just about to get interesting again with lively debate. Some of the commentators were beginning to agree to disagree with intelligent comments. Alas, once again the posse came to the rescue and leveled the field to playing in the sandbox.
Well said Donna and Gorilla, but apparently no one heard you.
” And there seems to be a real inability to listen, to acknowledge the inherent inconsistencies and complexities that abortion presents, and to respect people with whom we disagree.” (Donna)
“I don’t have an agenda, except to maybe find a liberal with an ability to argue facts. So far, the search isn’t going so well…” (Gorilla)
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By: Peterbilt on February 20, 2011
at 7:52 AM
Donna –
Feb 19, 0748 hrs
Well spoken.
IMHO, the problem is not currently soluble without force; the zealots of BOTH sides want it “my way or none,” and as long as nobody is willing to compromise, then the law must decide.
So be it. Paraphrasing Brandeis: sometimes it is more important that a thing be *settled* than that it be settled *right.*
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By: PFesser on February 20, 2011
at 7:43 AM
poolman wrote:
“Henry Ford was an avid supporter of Adolph Hitler.
BFD. Don’t use Planned Parenthood. Don’t buy a Ford.”
I am going to assume that is all tongue-in-cheek, since I know *you* know better. Hitler was, of course, a big admirer of Henry Ford I, but I wasn’t aware the amity went the other way – especially since Ford converted his auto plants to manufacture B-24s, eventually ramping up to *one per hour*. That made it kinda tough on the moustacio’ed paper hanger, as I recall – with Henry’s Liberators levelling much of the Thousand-Year-Reich. He also instituted the $5/day workday, – over $100/day in uninflated Greenbacks, elevating the workers standard of living beyond their dreams.
Of course, like all of us, he was a complex man and would be open to criticism on many fronts; I’m sure those versed in that skill can take it from here.
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By: PFesser on February 20, 2011
at 7:30 AM
Yes Jean, take you colostomy and move right along… unless of course you have something constructive to say?
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 20, 2011
at 6:00 AM
And yet none of you nags identified my agenda.
Here’s the eerie little fact- you can’t handle facts. So you blow smoke up each other’s asses and hi five, but at the end of the day, you all know that you’ve not addressed a single point made. All you do is make derogatory comments, engage in character assassination and then try to move the shells around.
I don’t have an agenda, except to maybe find a liberal with an ability to argue facts. So far, the search isn’t going so well…
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 20, 2011
at 5:55 AM
Auntie Jean:
Isn’t it ironic that an 800lbgorilla that purports to have a VERY difficult time supporting ANY organization founded on hate and racism, shows nothing but hate in his diatribes. I suppose that means that his agenda is pure hatred and nothing else.
Cynthia nailed it. His avatar says it all.
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By: jsri on February 19, 2011
at 9:46 PM
Hey, Whirled Peas! It’s a good day when you drop by. Loved the link.
Lori, your Daily Kos link is excellent, as well. Thanks.
And, Claire, if you are out there, best wishes to you. You and your words are not forgotten.
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By: elsie09 on February 19, 2011
at 7:04 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
I’m sure most of us are familiar with the work of Primatologist, Jane Goodall who spent 50 years in Tanzania, Africa observing the behavior of the great apes. Since orangutans are primarily found in Asia, her studies were concentrated on chimpanzees in particular. She found they had developed an astonishing degree of social skills and the use of tools, among other indications of their higher order level of intelligence.
Alas, the gorilla has not progressed as far and has only a limited repertoire; such as barring his teeth, roaring and chest thumping. Still, a few of them have grasped the ability to pound the computer keyboard and make monkeys of themselves all over the inter net. Poor creatures.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on February 19, 2011
at 5:37 PM
* Governor even..
namaste
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By: lori on February 19, 2011
at 4:13 PM
Peas! 😉
I wonder if the good folk in WI are having buyers regret with Govenor Walker?
yikes!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/19/947097/-Conservatives-use-divide-and-conquer-rhetoric-in-Wisconsin-union-protests
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By: lori on February 19, 2011
at 4:09 PM
Cynthia, what the hell are you talking about? “I play, you pay”? Example please…
Who said a pill for men is taboo? I said, if one existed, men would take it. One doesn’t exist, so your point is?????
I have a VERY difficult time with supporting ANY organization that is founded on hate and racism. Period. I suppose you could close your eyes and hold your breath, but I suspect that you’re more the accepting type.
And what agenda do I have? Really, this should be good…
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 19, 2011
at 3:43 PM
Just passin’ by….
Palin Media Boycott: Day 18
PEACE ~ Δ
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By: Whirled Peas Δ on February 19, 2011
at 11:47 AM
So what if Margaret Sanger was “a racist supporter of eugenics.”
Henry Ford was an avid supporter of Adolph Hitler.
BFD. Don’t use Planned Parenthood. Don’t buy a Ford.
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By: poolman on February 19, 2011
at 10:19 AM
an.0000800lbgorilla,
So there is an agenda! You just gotta love the woman-hater condemning the man-haters.
(tearing up first response, starting with clean pad)
I was going to tell you I respected for being responsible and having a vasectomy, why would that anger me? If I were angry I would be more inclined to say Thank God you had one, too bad your father didn’t.
I still would like to know why a birth control pill for men is such a taboo subject.
Question: “If women have the sole right to decide on abortion, then do they not hold the ultimate responsibility in birth control? See, that little mantra of “my body, my choice” has another edge to it…”
Answer: I have a bit of a problem with that myself. But NO….until men take some responsibility for their part of the sex act and stop with the “I play, you pay” I will have to go along with “my body, my choice”. However, I don’t think it is such a black and white subject.
As for Margaret Sanger, this is 2011 we have come a long ways from the 20’s and 30’s.
Talking point back at you. Why does the right love the fetus but hates the child?
As for the finger thingy….is that your age or IQ?
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 19, 2011
at 9:14 AM
Hello Leslie on January 25, 2011 at 11:55 AM,
It is nice that you had a complete family and had your tubes tied. This is a sad bunch of questions (hypothetical) but what actions would you take if after some period of time you lost your children? Your husband? Your income? Your health? These are difficult questions but are what happens to people all the time.
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By: Kenneth Fingeret on February 19, 2011
at 8:52 AM
You say ‘us’ like its inclusive of all, when its not…directed at all that it is…
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 19, 2011
at 8:21 AM
Those on death row made their choices in life- and are paying the consequences of such-, those about to go under the knife in Planned Parenthood haven’t made ANY choices.
Of course, it is becoming increasingly clear that those who blindly support abortion do so for selfish and self-interested reasons. To be frank, who cares what the little guy/gal thinks, this is about me…
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 19, 2011
at 8:19 AM
You may disagree with Gorilla but he makes some very good points. How DO you reconcile opposing the death penalty but supporting abortion? And in the same way, how do you support the death penalty but claim you want a “culture that supports life?” (Exhibit A: George W. Bush who mocked Karla Faye Tucker’s bid for clemency but adamently opposed abortion). I believe that the inconsistencies are largely unavoidable on both sides of the debate. What happens then is that people take entrenched positions and start insulting those who disagree with them.
There ARE terrible situations in which women are forced by medical or social circumstances to need abortion to be available to them. There ARE women who treat abortion as a form of birth control. These are the extremes on both sides of the debate. So how do you reconcile the large middle area from a philosophical viewpoint (and I am being careful not to put it in terms of a religious viewpoint)? And, since many women are low income or otherwise dependent on the government for any sort of healthcare, how do you reconcile the need for the government to respond with the objections of that part of the public that opposes abortion?
There is a great deal of destructive rhetoric on both sides. Whether it is the odious Randall Terry with his inflated characterizations of “murder” or the protester who screams “woman hater.” And there seems to be a real inability to listen, to acknowledge the inherent inconsistencies and complexities that abortion presents, and to respect people with whom we disagree.
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By: Donna on February 19, 2011
at 7:48 AM
How cute. The gorilla avatar is giving us all the gorilla middle finger.
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By: Hekate on February 19, 2011
at 7:01 AM
Or my personal favorite:
This one kind of fits pretty well the man-bashing feminist drivel wondering around here. ‘I don’t need a man’. Yeah, sure.
Explain this to me: most on the left are against the death penalty but support abortion. Or, just from here, are against all wars but support abortion. How do you justify that position? How do you, in a single breath, claim to support the sanctity of life, yet have nothing against the loss of the innocent? You know, its not hard to find quotes- much more recent- of feminists practically demanding every women have an abortion, if anything but to support the cause. Your skew on the issue has verred so far to the left, is so entrenched, that facts have no bearing for you.
I showed that the vast majority of abortions are for lifestyle choices, and in grand liberal fashion, you ignore that and move on to the emotional bit like the fact that you were completely wrong about why women have abortions didn’t matter. You know what, I’m glad she was sad, because frankly, it’d scare the shit out of me that she could end a life and think nothing of it, less we have some more of this:
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 19, 2011
at 6:49 AM
Yes, yes, the founder of Planned Parenthood was a racist supporter of eugenics. So, I wonder how many of the blind PP supporters here realize that they fit the mold and were the target of Sanger’s ideas?
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 19, 2011
at 6:35 AM
I wonder how many of you even know who Margret Sanger is…
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 19, 2011
at 6:31 AM
More thoughts on Jackie Speier, with links
JACKIE SPEIER, MY HERO TONIGHT
California Representative Jackie Speier has already endured more than any person should have to in one lifetime. She survived the ambush at Jonestown when she was a young legislative counsel to Leo Ryan, though she sustained 5 bullet wounds in the ambush that killed her boss. She almost lost her arm and leg from her wounds.
She married a surgeon, had a son, and then had repeated miscarriages and years of failed fertility treatments. While she was finally pregnant again at age 43, her husband was killed in a car accident.
http://speier.house.gov/index.cfm?sectio…itemid=240
And on the 18th of February this week, we learned something more about Jackie Speier’s courage.
During an outrageous assault on Planned Parenthood in the US Congress, by means of which right wing radicals intend to destroy it as they destroyed ACORN, Republican Chris Smith of New Jersey described a dilation and evacuation abortion in graphic detail and said PP is a place where babies are “exterminated.” The vitriolic and incendiary language had been going on for some time, but this was the last straw for Ms. Speier.
“I lost a baby,” Speier began softly, admonishing Republicans for graphically describing the procedure she had endured. “But for you to stand on this floor and to suggest, as you have, that somehow this is a procedure that is either welcomed or done cavalierly or done without any thought is preposterous.”
The article and video clip are here and are well worth viewing in their entirety.
http://www.mercurynews.com/peninsula/ci_…ck_check=1
I seriously doubt that even one Republican gives a good god damn about her pain or the pain of other women. Although there was applause in the House after she finished speaking, at the end of the day the House voted on party lines to cut off all funding to Planned Parenthood, although not one penny of government money has ever gone for abortion. She spoke of her personal tragedy once before, in 1996 as a member of the California Legislature, and afterward in a closed door session a Republican colleague said of her testimony, “Jim Jones didn’t finish the job.”
Jackie Speier says of Leo Ryan:
Leo Ryan is often the forgotten element of the Jonestown story. Not only is he the only member of Congress ever to be assassinated in the line of duty, more important, he was the only congressperson that thousands of Americans, from his district or not, knew they could trust when no one else would listen. He didn’t win all his battles, but to Leo, the fight was as important as the outcome. There is a quote from Winston Churchill that reminds me of Leo Ryan: “Success is never final, failure is never fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts.”
I suspect the same might be said of her. She joins my limited pantheon of heroes.
Hekate
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By: Hekate on February 19, 2011
at 5:26 AM
God bless Jackie Spier. She’s had to endure more in her life than anyone ever should (starting with the ambush at Jonestown; look it up), and today she felt called upon to disclose a gut-wrenchingly personal event having to do with the loss of a baby she wanted– her second miscarriage.
Frankly, I don’t expect NJ Republican Chris Smith and his ilk to give a good god damn about her testimony, her pain, or the pain of any other woman. They are far too busy scoring points with their “base” — a heartless bunch who would rather see a woman die than assure her the full range of a woman’s medical care.
But I am grateful she said it.
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By: Hekate on February 19, 2011
at 1:34 AM
It’s February 18, and Congresswoman Jackie Speier has put all these asshole men in their place with an incredibly moving speech on the House floor. It’s kind of a shame that we have to give up some of our privacy in order to ultimately protect it. But perhaps it’s for the best that Americans who have availed themselves of their Constitutionally protected right to abortion should no longer be so faceless.
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By: Sheila on February 18, 2011
at 8:45 PM
This is for all you men having a pity party over this issue, most women feel terrible about and and your grandstanding, woe is me, is just so much B S. Here is a taste of reality:
http://gawker.com/#!5764286/congresswoman-terrifies-republican-males-with-her-abortion-story
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By: No one's puppet on February 18, 2011
at 8:05 PM
Which is the more extreme form of birth control, vasectomy or abortion? A little perspective here.
If there was a pill for men, I suppose some would take it. I’ve had my children and didn’t want to deal with temporary birth control in perpetuity. Why that angers you, I’ve no idea.
Yes condoms have a purpose, and now they’re for him and her. That being said, let me ask you this question: if women have the sole right to decide on abortion, then do they not hold the ultimate responsibility in birth control? See, that little mantra of “my body, my choice” has another edge to it…
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 18, 2011
at 7:06 PM
an.0800lbgorilla,
That’s all you have to say….that’s why I had a vasectomy! You are making me wonder just what your real agenda is.
A vasectomy is fine for a man who has all the children he wishes or doesn’t want children. But it is a bit extreme for a young man who is not ready to settle down or the responsibility of children.
Condoms have a purpose yes, but they are only good if they work and are used. Too many men feel the use of them ruin the “magic of the moment”.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 18, 2011
at 4:11 PM
OK Cynthia, I guess that’s why I had a vasectomy…
“While the number of women who seek abortions to terminate pregnancies as a result of rape, incest, or serious medical complications may be comparatively small, these women MATTER. They should not be collateral damage in a war against women who should be making better lifestyle choices.” – delurkergurl
Where does this drivel come from? Who said they don’t matter? The fact of the matter is that overwhelmingly, choices to have an abortion are based on lifestyle- not criminal victims or medical reasons. Period. End of sentence. We can talk about these issues as well, but they are separate issues.
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 18, 2011
at 2:54 PM
Agree Cynthia, I’m so tired of whiny men, take responsibility guys. Condoms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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By: No one's puppet on February 18, 2011
at 2:32 PM
an.800lbgorilla,
Thank you for explaining the facts. I always wondered why my three children looked so much like my husband! Now I understand why!.
I am only addressing what you refer to as “lifestyle” abortions. I believe most pro-choice people believe abortion should not be used as a method of birth control.
In the 70’s, a reseaonably sucessful birth control pill was developed for men. However, one side affect was if he drank acholol it caused his eyes to become bloodshot. Research has come a long ways from those days. Now there are solutions for a number of male problems. I am sure they can find a solution to bloodshot eyes as well.
If men took a pill which prevented impregnating a woman who obvioulsy does not wish to be impregnated he would no longer need to be consulted for having “his half of the needed chromosones-to include the sex of the baby” being aborted. Nor would have to provide child support for child he didn’t plan. And he would not have to worry about entrapment by a woman looking for someone to help raise her child.
The man who does not practice birth control is just as responsible for these “lifestyle” abortions as the woman. If men are so serious about stopping abortions why are they not pushing for a male birth control pill.
If you are serious about reducing the number of “lifestyle” abortions why is a pill for men not a practical, logical solution?
What do you think? Anybody?
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 18, 2011
at 2:27 PM
Two thumbs up Delurkergurl. Perhaps some people are ready for a bit of respite from our current conversation. Enjoy a laugh http://voices.washingtonpost.com/anntelnaes/
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By: No one's puppet on February 18, 2011
at 1:15 PM
While the number of women who seek abortions to terminate pregnancies as a result of rape, incest, or serious medical complications may be comparatively small, these women MATTER. They should not be collateral damage in a war against women who should be making better lifestyle choices.
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By: delurkergurl on February 18, 2011
at 12:58 PM
Only for special circumstances is there any Federal help, but no doubt most women find another way to pay for their abortions. If you were a victim, would you want to rehash one of the horrible experiences any human being can have to receive a free abortion? I wouldn’t.
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By: No one's puppet on February 18, 2011
at 12:39 PM
I don’t think it does anywhere. I don’t see where it even gives women any rights. But wherein does it claim the unborn have any rights at all?
If by this you are referring to the preamble’s statement to “provide for the common defense”, then I say yes. However, we have gravely overstepped that responsibility. The common defense is to protect our citizenry from aggressive acts that would harm or enslave us. Our stance rather is an aggressive conqueror bent on global domination, imposing our brand of governance and morality over nations and peoples, with the result of materialistic exploitation of earthly resources for profit of a few.
Many have pointed this out over the years, yet nothing has been done to right this abhorrence to justice. The cost in freedom, lives, and resources to sustain this imperialism is greater than any other pursuit in the history of this republic.
“I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class thug for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.” – Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler
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By: poolman on February 18, 2011
at 11:48 AM
I thought there already was no federal funding for abortions.
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By: dawn on February 18, 2011
at 11:33 AM
Your source sounds like a reliable organization, and I agree with you that is way too high. We need to make sure birth control is more assessable and affordable. And there must be more education for parents, as well as young people, abstinence only works if you are abstinent I do know, the Hyde Amendment prohibits Medicaid from paying for abortions with a few exceptions; rape or incest, as well as when a pregnant woman’s life is endangered by a physical disorder, illness, or injury. I believe I heard on the news a couple of weeks ago, that the American taxpayer picked up the bill last year for One hundred and eighty one (181) abortions. Perhaps someone here follows this issue far closer than I do and verify this information or correct it.
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By: No one's puppet on February 18, 2011
at 10:51 AM
“78% of abortions are life style decisions, Gorilla? How would you know that? How would anyone know?” – No One’s Puppet
Well, some of us can read. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf
To think that this issue hasn’t been studied is pretty naive. Probably almost as naïve as to think that, as of 2008, 1.2 million abortion were the result of rape and incest.
But back to the question at hand- the 78% is from 1987, it has since dropped to 74% as of 2004:
Having a baby would dramatically change my life 74% (2004) 78% (1987)
Of that 74%:
Would interfere with education 38% (2004) 36% (1987)
Would interfere with job/employment/career 38% (2004) 50% (1987)
Have other children or dependents 32% (2004) 22% (1987)
Clearly, rape and incest are not at the top for WHY abortions occur.
As for tax dollars. Yawn.
Can someone please identify where in the Constitution it states Federal Governments REQUIREMENT for abortion? I ask because I can point to where it states National Defense is the responsible of the Fed. Regardless, I can assume a large portion here were echoing the mantra of elections have consequences, which seems to have disappeared- along with Dems in general- following the last election. Standing by for the consequences I see…
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 18, 2011
at 10:28 AM
78% of abortions are life style decisions, Gorilla? How would you know that? How would anyone know?
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By: No one's puppet on February 18, 2011
at 9:55 AM
HRH, great point and article.
Tine what’s going on in your state? LOL Things are about to get very interesting!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/18/946287/-Wisconsin-protestWalker-sayshewontbebullied
We shall seeeeeee
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By: lori on February 18, 2011
at 9:51 AM
Gorilla doesn’t want his tax dollars spent to help poor women in crisis.
I don’t want MY tax dollars spent to fund wars we don’t belong in, such as Iraq and Afghanistan.
As soon as MY taxes don’t go to what I don’t want – I’ll consider having YOUR taxes not go to what you don’t want. Kthksbye
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By: Sewmouse on February 18, 2011
at 9:50 AM
gorilla noted:
“And no, I do not think that I- as a tax payer- should have to pay for anyone elses abortions. Not with how it is managed now.”
No offense meant, but that is not your choice. I don’t want my tax money used to build devices to destroy humans en masse, but my government doesn’t feel that way, and since government is nothing other than raw power, they win.
Others have opined that it is “my body, my choice.” Again I would say, no, it’s not your choice – at least not for that reason. Your State has the right to do as it will with your body anytime it pleases – they may draft you into military service and cause you to suffer maiming or death at their pleasure, depending upon what cowboy occupies the Oval Office at the time.
Government may override the wishes of individuals at any time – within limits (supposedly) set by the Constitution – ostensibly for the greater good of the whole. What is fair or reasonable is an argument for another day. Do they have the right to weigh in on the abortion issue? You betcha.
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By: PFesser on February 18, 2011
at 9:47 AM
Donna, bingo!
What gives with shutting down discussion on a blog? The subject matter was selected by its author. If you don’t want to participate. . . well, fine — don’t. The egocentricity and incivility of the regulars around here is truly astounding. What I see amounts to little more than mental masturbation. To criticize those that dare comment on a “private matter” vountarily made public on a purportedly open discussion board (e.g. Rutherford’s comments) is disturbing.
Simply put, what Gorilla (and Rutherford) said is perfectly cogent. He/they ought to have the freedom to express his/their views without an immediate — shut the F*&ck up — take it elsewhere if that’s what you think. Both obviously value life AND choice.
Anit-male is all these comments amount to. A little intellectual honesty about that won’t kill anyone. In fact it should make you stronger.
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By: El Tigre on February 17, 2011
at 8:58 PM
About 78% of abortions are life style decisions. There’s where your data is…
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 17, 2011
at 7:57 PM
Roz–I think El Tigre was pulling folks’ leg. I’m not a mind-reader, but I imagine he was making the point that some of the comments have been pretty anti-male.
Thanks, Gorilla. I have the same dilemma reconciling the notions of child support with “not your decision.” The issues involved are not ones that lend themselves to sound bites. And the fact that people wrestle with the issues doesn’t mean those people should be attacked for doing so.
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By: Donna on February 17, 2011
at 5:15 PM
I think the problem here is that “one size fits all” is a lie and what remains is the question of whether or not women should have a REAL choice in how their bodies are used. Most abusers aren’t sent to jail, not prosecuted, not punished, most not even know about. But that’s a totally different question. The only way for women to be able to make their own decisions about their bodies (with whatever input they choose to accept from relatives, impregnators and doctors is for abortion to be legal and unencumbered.
Oh right, abortion IS legal, though when that 14 yr old came very close to “finding herself pregnant” it wasn’t a choice she had, even if her mother had believed her and wanted that choice for her. (It was also before birth control was generally available and “nice” people would never even talk about sex or such things) I believe Helen would side with me on this. We have to continue to fight to keep abortion legal. Those who choose to get an abortion must be able to get one without having to go to a back alley.
Now, I believe No One’s Puppet has the right idea. It’s time to move on, nothing will ever be settled here. Those who feel abortion should be illegal are doing everything they can, right up to murder, to change the country’s laws about it. I’m tired of talking about it. These discussions bring back too many painful memories and I would rather talk about what should be done to better educate all these children we already have running around.
A quote from New York Times Op-Ed by Gail Collins
“This month, The Houston Chronicle published an opinion piece by the former first lady titled “We Can’t Afford to Cut Education,” in which Mrs. Bush pointed out that students in Texas currently rank 47th in the nation in literacy, 49th in verbal SAT scores and 46th in math scores. ” This makes me believe that “Governor Good Hair” has been falling down on the job. If the kids in his state are getting a worse education than all but 2 or 3 other states, maybe he should change his focus.
Here’s the rest of the article, I’d love to hear what you have to say about it. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/17/opinion/17gailcollins.html?_r=3&ref=opinion
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By: HRH sofia EQ on February 17, 2011
at 4:05 PM
I think the argument that some women have abortions as lifestyle choices is very suspect. Where is the data? Where is the data on fathers not being given a vote in the an abortion decision. Yes, these are all possibilities/risks but that’s part of life and legislation to address these concerns would result in further government interference in our lives. It’s my guess is that anyone going in for an abortion has several hurdles to cross as part of the process of securing that abortion. That seems like ample opportunity for one to consider one’s actions.
Also, the argument of not wanting to pay taxes for what one doesn’t agree with…where is the logic in that?
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By: Roz on February 17, 2011
at 4:03 PM
“Convenience????” Yeeesshh! I grew up hearing the most monstrous sermons on Mothers Day in church from the pulpit from people who wouldn’t know a baby from a knothole or how to care for either one. Those sermons were so anti-woman that I quit going. As for the church caring greatly for the poor, you can put that between two slices of bread and eat it! The neighborhood I lived in was miserably impoverished. The yoyo in the pulpit on Mothers Day excoriating women for choosing to buy a new TV set rather than have another child was obviously from some other kind of universe. And he went back to a rectory complete with a new TV set with a female housekeeper waiting on him hand and foot. That “convenience” thing is, like Reagan’s welfare queen, a load of *******t!
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on February 17, 2011
at 3:51 PM
Yeah. I for one think abortion is a lifestyle choice and should be easier to get than a cheeseburger (or at least just as easy — in an urban area of course). And however it works, I plan to petition the justices of the Supreme Court to secure these as Constitutional rights since they are apparently unwilling to do sua sponte. Gorilla, if you petition too, one of us will win on the abortion/cheeseburger/lifestyle argument and at least we’d have that part of the debate resolved. Until then, you and your penis are not welcomed here. Your point of view conflicts with the majority.
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By: El Tigre on February 17, 2011
at 3:37 PM
“My question is, How about if the father is the 14yr old girl’s uncle?” – HRH sofia EQ
Yes, yes, the Incest argument. Well, considering that in 2004 less than 0.5% of abortions were for this reason, I can see how it can dominate the pro-choice argument. Or maybe not. Maybe, just maybe, it’s an overly sensitive red-herring.
Of course, if incest is involved, the dynamics would change. In fact, you can throw in rape too. Why, well, because these are CRIMES. Please, some common sense. Obviously, if the victim chooses to have an abortion they should be able, while simultaneously prosecuting the criminal.
Which brings me to this:
Because they are criminals. Pretty simple.
And I’m sorry, lumping fathers and rapists together is pretty sick in the first place.
Donna, I think it is a hard question. Do fathers get a veto if they’re willing to pay for everything and the mother can write off any and all obligations? Should fathers who want an abortion have that right? Should they be made financially obligated to a decision that the mother, and the mother alone can make? If we toss out some of the historical, and in some/most cases antiquated child custody perceptions, then maybe we could get somewhere. I just don’t think one can call on the obligations of men to pay child support and in the same breath say they have no input on abortion. It’s a two way street, and I do think there are fathers out there- more than most here will give credit I think- who would gladly take responsibility of the child.
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 17, 2011
at 3:25 PM
an800lbgorilla, rather than any of us taking up more time on this subject and settling nothing, why don’t you petition the United States Supreme Court?
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By: No one's puppet on February 17, 2011
at 10:53 AM
February 17, 2011
at 5:24 AM
“I believe FATHERs should at least have a RIGHT to have an input to the abortion question. It is his baby too.” OK, let’s discuss possible real situations here, not just idealistic dreams.
My question is, How about if the father is the 14yr old girl’s uncle? If he had succeeded in impregnating her in exchange for taking her to see Elvis in “Love me Tender?” As it turns out, it didn’t get to happen since I was lucky but a step cousin bore one of his children a couple of years earlier. I just found that fact from my now 82 year old aunt. He was 45 at the time.
So IF that 14 yrs old had “found herself pregnant” do you really believe the uncle should have a say in her carrying the pregnancy to term. At that time she was spending as much time as possible away from her dysfunctional family but had returned for a visit. Though I guess it’s really a moot point since first he would have to admit to fathering her child since no one believed the step cousin.
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By: HRH sofia EQ on February 17, 2011
at 10:04 AM
Abortion could never be easier than getting a cheeseburger. That’s ridiculous.
Not all pregnancies are the result of female choices, which keeps getting implied. Obvious examples are the fact that women are raped, birth control can fail, and partners can lie. Not all pregnancies result in healthy, alive mothers and babies, either. It’s a very complex thing that keeps getting over-simplified. How much more suffering should the government be allowed to cram into these very real, painful situations? Just how should the government discern whether an abortion meets acceptable criteria? This will just push people who use abortion as birth control into lying about being victims, and further victimize the women who really are. No matter what barrier you think is acceptable to put up, there will be ways to get around them. That means it will hurt more than help. I’m all about providing access to tremendous support for these women, and access to information about alternatives most would rather have women choose. Available. Easy to get. Not mandated.
How would you open the door to the “father” having a legal RIGHT to a say in the decision without opening the door for rapists and child abusers to end up with MORE say than their victims? I say MORE because their legal right to a say means they can veto what the female decides. Otherwise their say is meaningless, right? What if the tables were turned and it was the male who wanted the female to have an abortion and the female who did not? Does the man still deserve the RIGHT to a say in the decision? And what if the only way to get a legal abortion were to lie about being raped – how many men would be hurt by that?
I’m honestly sorry, because I know this actually hurts some men, but it really does have to be the woman who has the final say.
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By: delurkergurl on February 17, 2011
at 9:35 AM
Good morning all. I was hoping Helen would post something new for us to chew on, but alas, not just yet.
AFA Gorilla’s comment, it’s probably the first time he and I agree on anything. 😯 Funny that.
I also would like to know how we can hold the male equally accountable for the new life, whether the decision is to keep it alive to term and subsequent birth including the responsibility of rearing that new person to adulthood, or to choose abort.
I am also not okay with taxpayer money supporting abortion for the sake of convenience. I don’t believe we have anything in place that does that now.
Sex is a wonderful and glorious thing. But like any “gift” or action by humanity, it has consequences. Our free will and conscience places us above the rest of life on this planet. We each are responsible for our own choices and should (will) be accountable for them. There is no such thing as a free ride.
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By: poolman on February 17, 2011
at 9:17 AM
Good morning, Gorilla. I don’t know that I’ve seen you here before? And I have actually limited visits here because I think that the comments have really deteriorated. I’ve been as guilty in the past of going after people, but I have tried not to do that based simply on a difference of viewpoints.
While I am (as the regulars know) pretty liberal on many issues, Gorilla’s post sums up much of my attitude towards abortion. Can we please NOT attack him for his viewpoint, which I think is pretty intelligently expressed? I’d be interested in knowing what sort of input he believes a father should have because I’ve never been able to answer that question in a practical sense (although I do believe it’s difficult to argue with from a philosophical one). Ditto the circumstances under which he thinks it might be appropriate for taxpayers to fund abortions, for the same reason.
Gorilla–I am one of the early posters here but have been largely absent for a while. Lawyer, observant Jew. Impatient and critical at times unfortunately. Capable of excessive smugness. But interested in you expanding your thoughts if you’re willing.
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By: Donna on February 17, 2011
at 7:09 AM
“Men resent the fact women have the ability to create a life. One thing men can not do and so the need to control it.”
Couldn’t control myself, had to comment.
Last I checked, two women rubbing together only created fire. Let us not forget that it takes two to tango. Men provide half of the needed chromosones-to include the sex of the baby- for life to happen.
This site has some interesting commentary and a handful of insightful thoughts (that’s pretty generous actually). How you eat your own is hillarious. Rutherford has probably hit on something, this site isn’t so much about left or right as it is about his and hers. The fact that none of you will address the reversal of argument says a lot.
Before the hate flows, as I know it will, I will say this: I am pro-life.
I DO NOT think that abortion should be illegal.
However, I DO NOT think it should be easier to get an abortion than it is to get a cheeseburger.
Abortion is a MEDICAL procedure used for MEDICAL purposes- it is NOT a tool for LIFESTYLE choices.
I believe FATHERs should at least have a RIGHT to have an input to the abortion question. It is his baby too.
At the end of the day, abortion takes a life and should be treated with the seriousness of that. I think the callous nature in which some treat the abortion question, as if it is something to be done on your lunch break, is absurd and insulting to the grave nature of the procedure.
And no, I do not think that I- as a tax payer- should have to pay for anyone elses abortions. Not with how it is managed now.
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By: an800lbgorilla on February 17, 2011
at 5:24 AM
Goddamn. You’re my hero.
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By: Riki on February 17, 2011
at 4:31 AM
avotresante, I see Russ fans have crashed the site! Yay for him!
I wish Russ much success on his new adventure.
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By: lori on February 16, 2011
at 12:57 PM
Oh NormaJean, it’s not really your first time is it?
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By: No one's puppet on February 16, 2011
at 12:44 PM
This is my first time posting but I have been reading this page for months. I don’t post because frankly you people scare me. I know it is probably an irrational fear but I see how people are attacked for little more than party affiliation or having a different opinion. It seems most anyone of an opposing point of view is tolerated at best and the second they say one thing out of line then this boards swat team made up of loyal regulars chimes in attacking this person relentlessly until they stop posting altogether.
I would chime in on my opinion on this topic but I don’t want to put myself through the verbal ringer with the regulars. What I would like to see is more discussion about the opinions rather than blasting people apart and making it personal. I wish it were possible for someone to be able to state their opinion without the other side saying they are climbing into their uterus and trying to force their opinion on them. Did you ever stop to consider they want to just talk about it, and not force anything on you? Whatever happened to using conversation for an intellectual exploration of ideas and beliefs.
Please, let us have civilized discourse, and understand that a person disagreeing with you might not be after you personally, and might not be trying to force you into changing your mind but rather wants to discuss their point of view to advance a topic of conversation. I know I grow more as a person when I talk with people who do not think as I do. Having a diverse group of people to communicate with who come from many different cultures and schools of thought is something to be cherished, at least it should be.
One last thing, forgiveness. Remember, not everyone is as eloquent and articulate as you are. They might be emotional about the subject at hand, or just not as good as some at articulating their point of view. Instead of attacking them endlessly until they leave and we lose another contributor, consider suggesting to them a better way to post their thoughts and ideas then give them another chance. To often I see people lose their heads for a moment, then they are ridiculed and attacked over and over by the regulars and have any ideas after dismissed out of hand for the remainder of their time on the boards, branded a trouble maker never to be taken seriously again.
Thank you for reading my thoughts and opinions, I hope some of you will give them some consideration.
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By: normajeanmi on February 16, 2011
at 11:41 AM
Wow, wow, wow. Bravo for a masterful post. I have one thing to say to any religious person who doesn’t believe in choice. Get your religious beliefs out of my uterus. THEY are your beliefs, not mine.
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By: Kate on February 16, 2011
at 9:29 AM
Hi Tex, going by Peterbilt now?
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By: No one's puppet on February 16, 2011
at 8:10 AM
This is off topic, but I’m hoping it may interest some.
http://www.progressivesunited.org/home
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By: avotresante on February 16, 2011
at 7:15 AM
Peterbilt,
My understanding of this is Rutherford feels we present a good argument/debate for Pro-Choice but we loose the argument when we add men are Bastards. We come across as man-haters. He has a point.
He questions if women resent the fact that men can walk away after sex but women are left holding the baby. There is some truth to this fact.
IMO. Men resent the fact women have the ability to create a life. One thing men can not do and so the need to control it.
My personal experience is men argue/debate in black and white (facts and figures) and women in many shades of grey (facts, figures, emotions and personal experience). We have difficulty communicating with each other.
Hopefully this will only down load once.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 16, 2011
at 5:14 AM
Well Miss Helen, the latest Donnybrook by your self appointed posse has caused quite an uproar. Of course I am sure you do not need a posse to defend your blog as you are quite capable of defending any position you express.
As I understand the situation, a person named Claire made an outdated statement ” I found myself pregnant”. As you and I well know, Helen, during that generation all woman used that statement. Why? At that time there were no tests and a woman did not see a doctor until she had missed at least three or four periods which then indicated she may have “found ” herself pregnant.
Another person of a more recent generation named Rutherford took exception to the statement. He could not understand the concept behind “I found myself pregnant”. I think if Claire had stated in today’s terminology, I had unprotected sex with my spouse and took a test which indicated I was pregnant, Mr. R would not have taken exception to that statement as he followed his comments with his beliefs regarding abortion which were not off the beaten path of the M&H posse!
I also understand Helen that this Mr. R used the term “fat grannies” but in my understanding of the comments, that term seemed to refer more to the average age and condition of most of the commentators on your blog not to you and Margaret. In return the Posse retaliated with terms of “asshole, dick and liar”. In my generation “fat grannies” was a much more acceptable phrase than the above terms. My Mother would have washed out my mouth with soap for using such language.
I am an elderly gentleman with an Anthropology degree that enjoys studying the social interactions of homo sapiens throughout the centuries. I have been fascinated with the social interactions of the internet community. This latest Tomfoolery is a perfect example of the way people today interact and I fear this virtual behavior is spilling over to whatever is left of actual communication.
I shake my head over the fact that a person of color Mr. R described himself as black and was called a liar. Your posse goes to great extreme to research people who do not agree with them and then outs them on a public blog. Another person who calls himself Craig actually does have a wife who is a doctor but the posse did not believe him until she was diagnosed with cancer.
Yes, Miss Helen, please continue posting and I will continue using your blog and commentators for my studying of the method of communication used by homo sapiens in the 21st century as technology expands. Although I am afraid future generations will have lost what we of past generations called the “art of communication”.
Respectfully Yours,
Peterbilt
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By: Peterbilt on February 15, 2011
at 6:40 PM
I am an 83 year old father, grand father, great grand father, nad great great grand father. I witnessed the birth fo four of my children, and two of my grand children, and I can tell you, from personal experience, that birthing a child is not easy, simple or painless, my observation of both human and animal birth confirms that this is true. Therefore an unwanted child is going to lack the most essential ingredient of a good, happy childhood, love. This is borne out by the fact that ninety peercent or more births of unwanted births result in child abuse of the most henious kind. Abortions stop ths, or at least hinder the abuse to a great extent.
my name may be used, I welcome criticism as well THEODORE J. TROTT.
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By: THEODORE J. TROTT on February 15, 2011
at 2:36 PM
Noah, just because someone disagrees with you – and especially just because a LOT of people disagree with you does not mean we are “Sheep” – we are simply people who share a similar point of view that is entirely different than yours.
Honey, I was a mother when you were most likely still not even a bad idea in the back seat of your mom’s prom date’s Chevy Vega. I don’t need Helen, nor do I need you – to make my decisions for me.
You said somewhere above that “Not that it is any of YOUR business” to someone commenting on your wife’s pregnancy and how you would behave as a father.
EXACTLY!!!
It’s none of our business what happens/doesn’t happen in your private life – JUST AS IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS what happens inside of anyone else’s uterus – none of YOUR business, none of Gov. GoodHair’s business, None of ANYONE’s business except the person lugging that uterus around the planet.
If you don’t approve of abortion – don’t have one. I’ll support your CHOICE.
If you need an abortion, and have one, I’ll support your CHOICE.
Because in the end, that is what PRO-CHOICE means.
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By: Sewmouse on February 15, 2011
at 2:22 PM
Spot on, Judith!
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By: delurkergurl on February 15, 2011
at 12:46 PM
Generally, men can cry, no problem.
However, in politics – I’ll be ok with those men crying, the day that a woman in political office can cry without having to field comments about her menstrual cycle, hormones and her general unsuitability for public office due to obvious mental instability.
Good for the goose, good for the gander.
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By: judith on February 15, 2011
at 12:34 PM
Craig, men can cry, I don’t think they lose their masculinity when they cry, but George H W has the reputation of crying at the drop of a hat, just Boerner, and I really believe in laughing at Barbara Bush’s joke, “you could be Speaker of the House.” Good one, Barb!
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By: No one's puppet on February 15, 2011
at 11:22 AM
NOP..had not seen that segment.
But is it not OK for men to cry?
Boerner does get a lil carried away especially in public.
My son cried for the first time in his adult life a couple years ago
when he called me to tell me his wife might leave him. I could do noting but hear that “boy” / man cry like I had not heard since he was a child. I wanted to reach out thru the phone but could do nothing but comfort him with words and let him talk.
Later..The boss has given me a list of Honey do’s.
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By: Craig on February 15, 2011
at 11:10 AM
Kelly, that’s quite true, but not good enough for the far-right of Attila the Hun crowd! Have thought about that for some time myself.
Tecum pax!
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on February 15, 2011
at 9:06 AM
That was a good one NOP… No marriage is perfect, and their’s certainly wasn’t, but I salute that they stuck it out. And Barbra’s comment was priceless wasn’t it? LOL LOL
Fanned sagi! Look at the shiny object in the room not at what me and my cronies are doing to you.
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By: lori on February 15, 2011
at 5:51 AM
Helen – you have said all that needs to be said. I only wish that I had checked in earlier – I’ve missed your witty, spot-on wisdom and common sense. REALLY glad to see you back!
I am pro-choice, which means literally that. If one doesn’t want to terminate a pregnancy, one has that choice, and I wish those individuals all the best. I just NEVER want to see those who choose to do so, for whatever reason, or those who assist or treat them, be treated as criminals. I also do not want to see anyone coerced by whatever means into carrying a fetus to term.
I love the salient point made by at least one poster upthread: who would pay for these sonograms? The very people who profess to love unborn babes the most are those who are most against universal health care – or any other service that would enable good quality of life for children who are actually born. A pox on their hypocrisy!
Ironically, Jan 25 is the birthday of my older son. That birthday is not “Jan 25+ nine months.”
And yes, I, like the overwhelming majority of women who become pregnant, chose to have my babies. The comparative few who do choose to terminate their pregnancies, for whatever reason, have the absolute right to do so, IMO. If we are not in their shoes, so to speak, we have no right to make the choice for them.
Let Gov Ricky Good-hair try to do something positive for the people who are already born and who must live in his state. But no, he’d rather create a mountain out of a tiny molehill that only arouses lots of heat and sheds little light, but certainly does manage to distract from the piss-poor job of governing that he has done/is doing.
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By: SagiDreamer on February 15, 2011
at 3:37 AM
I imagine you could use a laugh Craig, so this one is dedicated to you.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/14/barbara-bush-george-bush-crying_n_823186.html
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By: No one's puppet on February 15, 2011
at 12:04 AM
Jean follow this link, this is important information for your health needs, but Medicare Part D can also help protect your assets. http://www.medicare.gov/navigation/medicare-basics/medicare-benefits/part-d.aspx
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By: No one's puppet on February 14, 2011
at 11:04 PM
ALASKAPi can you come over to the “Steam” room @ the Kitchen? need to write to you.
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By: cryptoclearance on February 14, 2011
at 11:00 PM
Said on: not all NUTMEGGERS are idiots or intolerant for sure! but there are some mutations
and not all are worried that your truck is bigger than my truck……..ya know?
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By: cryptoclearance on February 14, 2011
at 10:54 PM
Funny how a better form of care exists but only for the wealthy. Welcome to America or better stated: Welcome to United Republican States of America.
BTW – did “boy toy” have to meet with a death squad first to determin if he should live or die?
Best of luck to you… prayers will be said.
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By: tony on February 14, 2011
at 10:53 PM
Jean, Medicare Part D is the prescription drug part, I believe it is bought through a private insurer and each plan had a different “cafeteria” of drugs it will pay for, you definitely need to look into it. Best of luck with your hubby, as we all know getting older isn’t for sissies.
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By: No one's puppet on February 14, 2011
at 9:58 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
I have hesitated to unload on you the details of ‘boy toy’s’ health issues. However, since it ties in with the on-going Healthcare debate on who pays for what and how much, here goes. The conservative thinkers (and I use the term ‘thinkers’ loosely) seem to be determined to chip away at Medicare, Medicaid, the abortion and any other controversial issue they can dream up while still supporting the profit margins of the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries.
As some of you know, we hit a bump in the road with ‘boy toy’s health issues just before the holidays. This is not heart or cancer related. After NUMEROUS consultations and tests, his neurologist came up with the diagnosis of CIDP (Chronic Inflammatory Demyelinating Polyneuropathy). That’s a mouthful! It is an autoimmune disease in the same family with Rheumatoid Arthritis, Sjogren’s Syndrome and Lupus. He has had RA and SS for years but does not have Lupus. The CIDP has affected his legs, balance and ability to walk but so far not his arms. He has been taking and well tolerating Metholtraxate for RA for a long time. Yikes! That’s Mustard Gas in pill form!!! (BTW, don’t quote me on any of this spelling.) He has also been having an intensive, intensive form of Physical Therapy for several weeks now. You can Google all that alphabet soup if you want to learn more than you ever wanted to know about this stuff.
Initially, the neurologist recommended four hours a day for four days of IVIg Infusions. However, the treatments are VERY expensive. Since this is a chronic condition, it would probably have to be repeated from time to time. It could easily run to 100K and up. The long and short of it is that Medicare only covers it in Part D. Part D???? We don’t have Part D and never heard of it. So of course our supplemental wouldn’t touch it. We don’t have the resources to take on a long-term treatment schedule like that. So the neurologist then recommended an alternative treatment of Prednisone Infusions. You may know that Prednisone is a very effective but powerful drug with some dangerous and heavy-duty side effects. At least Prednisone has been around for a long time and is generic.
So ‘boy toy’ had the Prednisone Infusions for four days last week and is now on a quite hefty daily dose of oral Prednisone. Unfortunately, the damage has already been done to the nerves in his legs. The idea now is to keep it from getting any worse.
Son #1 from CA has been here for a week and will be here for another. I can’t tell you what an enormous help he has been. He is always upbeat and cheerful and keeps us laughing. (He has even weeded our Pitiful Little Patch out back!)
The Infusion Center at the hospital is actually quite posh. An extremely wealthy man here had cancer and donated the entire wing. There are semi-cubicles with leather recliners. The patient sits-lies there with a needle in his arm while a bevy of lovely nurses cater to his every wish! I never knew before that there are all kinds of infusions going on beside those for cancer.
The tough part was a little girl, maybe 10-12, getting infusions and crying much of the time. She even got to the nurses. For grown-ups, well, you play the hand you are dealt.
For kids – that’s not fair.
Aloha! Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on February 14, 2011
at 9:09 PM
Craig, now I’m laughing until I cry. Not with the mistakes I make, and besides, I’m around your age.
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By: No one's puppet on February 14, 2011
at 8:06 PM
NOP..are you the English teacher I failed to impress?
delurkergurl,
Bad news..as if I need any..I thought my four wheel drive was useless.
Well when we pulled into drive to unload bags on Friday and moved 2001 Tahoe 15 min…. later..lots of fluid on ground..
Long story short…Front wheel drive out on truck. Hey 117K on truck.
$1500 on rebuilt front wheel drive train or 54K on new Tahoe.
Truck into repairs as soon as rebuilt gets in town.
Stay warm all.
Craig
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By: Craig on February 14, 2011
at 7:51 PM
And Rutherford, I’ve read your posts. there is no comprehension problem here.
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By: margaretandhelenFan on February 14, 2011
at 5:41 PM
How about a you’re for your, talk about tears.
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By: No one's puppet on February 14, 2011
at 4:01 PM
Craig, come on guy, your too old for poop jokes, as am I. glad you and val traversed the icy roads of Texas safely and hope you don’t have to go through that again.
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By: No one's puppet on February 14, 2011
at 3:46 PM
Hi Craig. I heard from James. He’s OK and is taking a break from the web. He hinted at it in his last post here.
I’m sorry you’re in another holding pattern. I hope it ends in good (actionable) news! Being able to take action will help so much.
I learned to drive on ice, so I know what to do and not do. So far it has gotten me through safely. There is little you can do to avoid the consequences of sharing the road with people who just don’t get it! Best to stay home when possible. In your case, you kind of had to go and I’m glad it turned out OK. I find that the 4wd people are the worst. They can GO, so they do, but can they stop? 4wd is useless when the 4w’s are pointed up in the air. Shiny side up, people!
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By: delurkergurl on February 14, 2011
at 3:26 PM
Lori,
Thanks for your thoughts..
I don’t know if the sand trucks just missed it..but there was literally nothing on 75 North..”North Central” from Live Oak to Northwest HiWay where we exited.
The only thing I saw was the on ramp at Live Oak had some gravel..and it looked as if some chemical agent had been sprayed on the off ramp for NW highway. NO probelem getting there as it was rain at 6am but about 7:30am it started with ice pellets and thus no snow. I can understand and know exactly wher your husband was..I was considering going across to Stemmons but thought what the heck?
Never even saw a sand truck anywhere except on the news.
NOP..AT least the little boy was not crying.
And who is Mr. Rutherford since I’ve been away..he seems to have caused a stir..
and I thought at least..I’ve got someone who can take the heat off me..not that its been there for some time..
And where is James? Anyone heard?
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By: Craig on February 14, 2011
at 3:04 PM
This is so juvenile.
Rutherford isn’t dismissed because of his opinion. He made his grand entrance with a malicious insult to Claire. It’s not the “difference of opinion” but how the opinion is presented that MATTERS. Come off like a jerk, and get treated like one. I can think of several examples in the history of this blog.
How did he handle having dozens of people tell him why he was wrong to do that?
The biggest issue is that his need for attention is so vast that he tolerates being treated like crap on his own blog. Here, he insists on civility and open minds. But there, where he actually GETS to make the rules, he makes a fire hydrant of himself for all the rabid mutts to pee on. He gives them a big comfy platform where they make a fool of him every day, and thinks his limp stance on progressive issues should have everyone lined up on his side.
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By: Anonymous on February 14, 2011
at 2:33 PM
Mr. Anonymous,
Stomp on back to the kitchen where you and the rest of the cliquey grouses can clack your beaks at the mean mens who dare challenge your supreme right to have the first, last, and every word in between.
As for Ms. Bateman, well, she’s about as bright as you are a talented painter, Jean.
Ms. Anonymous
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By: Anonymous on February 14, 2011
at 2:02 PM
I am a cogitator and have a tendency to mull for long periods. Someone brought up Palin and her CHOICE to have her child. This makes her PRO CHOICE. Others have brought up the fact that they are pro life and would not CHOOSE abortion. This makes them PRO CHOICE.
Legal or not, like it or not, abortions are on the table at all times when unexpected pregnancy, pregnancies gone wrong, pregnancies from rape/incest/etc. happen. It may not be the choice some will make, but, the mere fact that they would never choose to have an abortion makes them PRO CHOICE.
Just some of what I have been mulling and cogitating on.
Dona nobis pacem.
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By: Kelly on February 14, 2011
at 12:56 PM
Mr. Rutherford:
Yup. It’s Mr. Anon. Used to come here a lot but now only drop in occasionally. That way I avoid the group of bottom feeders who have taken over H&M’s site.
I know you think you’re God’s gift to the Internet and that readers must be hanging on your every word, but it might interest you to know that your contributions are so dull and pedantic, I put them in the class of “Skim & Pass”. So when you bitch about the fact that 99% of your blog articles align with the politics of most of the readers here, that is pure bloviation.
BTW, it took about thirty seconds to find out the who, when and where about you. You don’t seem to understand that when you spread yourself all over the net, you leave pretty obvious footprints behind. While castigating Lori for “outing” you, you are way off base. You have outed yourself.
BTW is a webinar sort of like a video game, maybe like Guitar Hero?
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By: Anonymous on February 14, 2011
at 12:19 PM
And I’m sure the teacher was speechless, very much in the John Boehner approach to truth, even you know something to be a flagrant lie, allow it to be spread anyway!
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By: No one's puppet on February 14, 2011
at 11:17 AM
Yikes! Craig your trip to Dallas sounds absolutely horrid! I know your nerves must have been frazzled by the end of that day. My husband happened to be in Dallas too. He came home with horror stories about the road conditions as well. It took him 90 minutes to get from a business on Stemmon’s to North park mall area. (Normally a 15? minute drive).
I did have you and Val on my mind when he called home to tell me how bad it was there. I was hoping all was well with you. I continue to keep you on my heart.
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By: lori on February 14, 2011
at 11:16 AM
Since we’re in a joking mood……..
>The kids filed back into class Monday morning. They were very excited.
>Their weekend assignment was to sell something, then give a talk on
>productive salesmanship.
>
>Little Sally led off: “I sold girl scout cookies and I made $30,”
>she said proudly, “My sales approach was to appeal to the customer’s
>civil spirit and I credit that approach for my obvious success.”
>
>”Very good,” said the teacher.
>
>Little Jenny was next:
>
>”I sold magazines,” she said, “I made $45 and I explained to everyone
>that magazines would keep them up on current events.”
>
>”Very good, Jenny,” said the teacher..
>
>Eventually, it was Little Johnny’s turn.
>
>The teacher held her breath …
>
>Little Johnny walked to the front of the classroom and dumped a box
>full of cash on the teacher’s desk. “$2,467,” he said.
>
>”$2,467!” cried the teacher, “What in the world were you selling”
>
>”Toothbrushes,” said Little Johnny.
>
>”Toothbrushes,” echoed the teacher,
>
>”How could you possibly sell enough tooth brushes to make that much money?”
>
>”I found the busiest corner in town,” said Little Johnny, “I set up a
>Dip & Chip stand, I gave everybody who walked by a free sample.”
>
>They all said the same thing, “Hey, this tastes like dog sh*t!” Then I
>would say,”It is dog sh*t. Wanna buy a toothbrush?”
>
>”I used the Democratic Party approach of giving you something shitty,
>but looks good, for free, and then making you pay to get the shitty
>taste out of your mouth.”
>
>The teacher was speechless. . . . . . . .
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By: Craig on February 14, 2011
at 11:04 AM
Another chuckle…I have dial up and an old computer and it is not working well with me today!
A woman in a hot air balloon realized she was lost. She lowered her altitude and s
potted a man in a boat below. She shouted to him, “Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don’t know where I am.”
The man consulted his portable GPS and replied, “You’re in a hot air balloon, approximately 30 feet above ground elevation of 2,346 feet above sea level. You are at 31 degrees, 14.97 minutes north latitude and 100 degrees, 49.09 minutes west longitude.
She rolled her eyes and said, “You must be an Obama Democrat.”
“I am,” replied the man. “How did you know?”
“Well,” answered the balloonist, “everything you told me is technically correct. But I have no idea what to do with your information, and I’m still lost. Frankly, you’ve not been much help to me.”
The man smiled and responded, “You must be a Republican.”
“I am,” replied the balloonist. “How did you know?”
“Well,” said the man, “you don’t know where you are or where you are going. You’ve risen to where you are due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your problem. You’re in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but somehow, now it’s my fault.”
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 14, 2011
at 10:47 AM
Val is doing fine. A lil tired and snippy today. She went into work and has a full week ahead of her. The Baylor surgi center made about a 1 inch incision below her left arm and withdrew four cancerous nodes. Doctor, PA and Researcher’s nurse assistant participated in the harvest. I then had to take her to the Researcher’s clinic for them to draw four vials of blood for the various labs and the clinical trial she will be entered into for the Genome study. Don’t know why I had to take her somewhere else during an ice storm but they came down to street level and walked her in while I waited and kept car warm.
Took her back to hotel in worst driving conditions in my adult life. North Central expressway had only sand on the entrance ramp and ICE for road conditions for my next five mile trek. Watched idiots on road as they passed.. as one did two and a half 360 in front of me some two hundred yards. Made it to hotel got her some antibiotics and hunkered down for next 48 hours till drive home on Friday.
Now we wait for various labs to do their thing and hopefully get accurate diagnosis as to what particular type of cancer cell we are dealing with and thus, exact Chemo cocktail to utilize. Probably another ten days to two weeks before Chemo starts again.
Thanks to all for your prayers and thoughts.
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By: Craig on February 14, 2011
at 10:33 AM
Vinaigrette Girl, perfect, and with that said, end of discussion.
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By: No one's puppet on February 14, 2011
at 10:23 AM
From one of my favourite Christian Feminist websites:
” “Bob, tobacco is a legal product in America,” Mr. Boehner replied. “And the American people have the right to decide for themselves whether they want to partake or not.” Noting that many things are bad for a person’s health, he added, “The American people ought to have the right to make those decisions on their own.”
Now let’s rewrite it a bit.
“Bob, abortion is a legal procedure in America,” Mr. Boehner replied. “And American women have the right to decide for themselves whether they want to partake or not.” Noting that many things are bad for a person’s health, he added, “Women ought to have the right to make those decisions on their own.”
See how that works, if you’re truly against government intrusion into people’s lives?”
I have no rage about men being able to do their biological thing and walk away from the consequences: it is what it is. But men, in general, have no business legislating for what happens in my personal uterus according to their own private beliefs. Nor do women – not that there is anywhere in any place a majority of women legislators – hahahahaha, how we all laughed! – according to their own personal beliefs.
This isn’t about gender wars but about my personal uterus and whose beliefs govern it. There is no argument in law that says John Boehner’s opinion trumps mine about my womb and what takes place within it. Theologically, if I believe in God, then God and I have a direct line which John Boehner is not called upon to mediate or mansplain. God can get right on my case directly without Johnnie helping him out even just a little bit.
I can see why my claiming to have equal moral agency over my own womb might get John Boehner riled up, but that’s his row to hoe.
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By: Vinaigrette Girl on February 14, 2011
at 10:13 AM
Things are getting a bit grumpy around here. It’s Chuckle Time!
During a recent password audit in Alaska, it was found that $arah Palin was using the following password:
“MickeyMinniePlutoHueyLouieDeweyDonaldGoofyJuneau”
When asked why she had such a long password, she said she was told that it had to be at least 8 characters long and include at least one capital.
Happy Valentine’s Day! Tell someone you care about them.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 14, 2011
at 10:01 AM
“…we won’t advance to the place that abortion becomes very rare and primarily for the safety of the woman’s life if we continue to play games about access to birth control, education on reproductive choice, and dump the phony responsibility paradigms.”
Beautifully worded, alaskapi — every cogent thought in your comment. Thank you.
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By: elsie09 on February 14, 2011
at 9:38 AM
Things are getting a bit grumpy around here. It’s Chuckle Time!
During a recent password audit in Alaska, it was found that $arah Palin was using the following password:
“MickeyMinniePlutoHueyLouieDeweyDonaldGoofyJuneau”
When asked why she had such a long password, she said she was told that it had to be at least 8 characters long and include at least one capital.
*****
A woman in a hot air balloon realized she was lost. She lowered her altitude and spotted a man in a boat below. She shouted to him, “Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don’t know where I am.”
The man consulted his portable GPS and replied, “You’re in a hot air balloon, approximately 30 feet above ground elevation of 2,346 feet above sea level. You are at 31 degrees, 14.97 minutes north latitude and 100 degrees, 49.09 minutes west longitude.
She rolled her eyes and said, “You must be an Obama Democrat.”
“I am,” replied the man. “How did you know?”
“Well,” answered the balloonist, “everything you told me is technically correct. But I have no idea what to do with your information, and I’m still lost. Frankly, you’ve not been much help to me.”
The man smiled and responded, “You must be a Republican.”
“I am,” replied the balloonist. “How did you know?”
“Well,” said the man, “you don’t know where you are or where you are going. You’ve risen to where you are due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your problem. You’re in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but somehow, now it’s my fault.”
Happy Valentine’s Day! Tell someone you care about them.
Peace.
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By: Cynthia on February 14, 2011
at 9:24 AM
Mine is a state which passed a law last August requiring teens to consult with their parents before getting an abortion- during the same poorly participated in primary which gave us Joe Miller as the Republican candidate for US Senator.
If it weren’t so sad it would be ironic that this report was released such a short time later.
Click to access 1004.01.avs.pdf
and that the ACE study
http://www.ajpm-online.net/article/S0749-3797(98)00017-8/abstract
has been largely ignored by folks who choose to focus on some pie-in-the-sky iteration of “personal responsibility”
The assumption that teens are or will behave responsibly about birth control/abstinence because someone told them to has always been laughable. Assuming all parents love and cherish their children is foolish.
Extending the assumption to include a presumed level playing field as regards responsible decision making to women (and men) who do not have a background of good role models and safe , secure homes to develop sensible coping skills for sound decisions is just plain stupid.
It is perhaps easier for abortion foes to rail on about recreational sex, irresponsible teens, the sanctity of the sex act, and so on but from where I sit a whole lot of ignoring of human behavior is going on there.
DV and sexual violence, as well as promiscuity, is prevalent here in areas where unemployment is high and hopelessness and despair are the order of the day. None of these so-called coping mechanisms advance anything useful or sensible in the long term but human beings tend, over and over, to rely on the short term release of frustrations each provides just to get through.
We won’t advance to the place of each child being a wanted and provided for child if we pretend that it has nothing to do with us that so many are not.
And we won’t advance to the place that abortion becomes very rare and primarily for the safety of the woman’s life if we continue to play games about access to birth control, education on reproductive choice, and dump the phony responsibility paradigms.
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By: alaskapi on February 14, 2011
at 9:05 AM
Happy Valentine’s Day! Spread the love. 😉
Speaking of love! Gotta love our Nancy!
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/02/pelosi_republicans_dont_care_a.html
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By: lori on February 14, 2011
at 5:05 AM
Damn I wish, I’d proof read before I post comment!
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By: No one's puppet on February 14, 2011
at 12:45 AM
Rutherford, this is just something for you to ponder, before you next refer to yourself as pro choice, because it seems to me, you are to the right of Sarah Palin on this issue. Sarah as we all know choose to have continue her pregnancy to term, after she learned the child would have Down syndrome. She is also on record, for saying, no one other than herself and the doctor even knew she was pregnant and she thought…. That she even had the test tells me, that there could be some circumstance in which her choice could have when the other way. I have a friend, who got pregnant in her forties, she was so certain that she would continue her pregnancy no matter what, that she refused a amniocentesis test. Sarah didn’t refuse the test and she didn’t tell Todd she was pregnant until she decided to carry the pregnancy to term. I don’t expect to see you at any pro choice marches anytime soon, as I don’t think you’ve given this enough though, to truly know where you stand on the issue.
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By: No one's puppet on February 14, 2011
at 12:43 AM
Rutherford, I hate to harp on this, but “that a woman must determine the course of her pregnancy with the advice of her loved ones (including males),” has the potential of being a woman’s undoing. Now if you were to rephrase it to: if a woman has a good relationship with her family and they respect her wishes, it is highly desirable that she consult with them before making her final decision, I could most definitely go along with that. Obviously, you’ve little experience with abusive relationships, women have been beaten for less than getting pregnant in the first place or for even considering an abortion. Some people’s love ones aren’t loving or rational. Roe v Wade is settled law, even these back door attempts to prevent poor women from receiving the same right of determination over their own bodies as wealthier women do not go as far as you do in suggesting, a woman is not allowed to determine when and with whom reproduces. No Rutherford, you are not pro choice. The time for individuals to express how they feel about abortion is before they are intimate, I would suggest, when they are discussing birth control would be a good time.
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By: No one's puppet on February 14, 2011
at 12:01 AM
You don’t get it Rutherford. You were hurtful to a woman who had opened up about a very painful experience. You should have kept your mouth and your ass shut. It was cruel.
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By: tony on February 13, 2011
at 11:56 PM
LOL … Anonymous … or is that Mr. Anonymous or is it Ms. Anonymous? Maybe Lori can help out here by telling us your real name?
Anyone who’s bothered to read my blog knows I’m about as tolerant and patient as they come. Most of my comments on this blog have been respectful but I’m only human and yes, I get pissed now and again and answer disrespect with disrespect.
Let me save the rest of you the trouble of the Google research that Lori and Anon have wasted their time with. I am a webinar producer living in Middlebury, CT. I’m black and disabled for whatever that is worth. I have a wife whom I love very much who is pro-choice and believes in personal responsibility and I have a very smart and lovely seven year old daughter.
I am about as liberal as they come. I believe for the 10 millionth time that a woman must determine the course of her pregnancy with the advice of her loved ones (including males), her doctors and if she is into it, her clergy. But the final decision is hers. Government should have no role in it whatsoever.
What blows me away is that a little bit of criticism throws some of you into such a tizzy that you discount the fact that 99% of my blog articles align with your politics. But I made the mistake of expressing an opinion about abortion being a bigger issue than simply “it’s my body” and now suddenly I’m a conservative slug. It’s absolutely wild!
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By: Rutherford on February 13, 2011
at 11:11 PM
Lori my friend, don’t you dignify any utterances by persons who have totally missed the spirit of this blog. Most posters here know you to be a person of character. Don’t you even lose one second of sleep over it.
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By: Easier on February 13, 2011
at 11:11 PM
I don’t need a thesaurus to tell you in very plain language Auntie, that if you consider Lori one of your most respected contributors then you are one very poor judge of character.
First, calling any blogger who has chosen a pen-name by his real name shows an incredible lack of class.
Second, Lori quoted a comment that I made on my blog and then claimed to have read other damning comments. Now if you think you can pull all that stuff from a Google search without looking at the source material, then I have some swampland to sell you in Florida. Lori claims to have never visited my blog, after quoting it and claiming great knowledge of its contents. This makes her a liar one way or another.
Aloha, Namaste and Shalom to you too.
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By: Rutherford on February 13, 2011
at 10:56 PM
Lori:
Mr Bovell is a little testy tonite. I thought Nutmeggers were were a little more tolerant than that.
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By: Anonymous on February 13, 2011
at 10:44 PM
“phylogenetic scale” — thank you for the chuckle, Auntie Jean. I’ll leave you a piece of Pi for that.
Think I added my comment to the Planned Parenthood debate too late last night, as that thread seems to be done with, but came by this one to toast Helen with coffee and pie regardless.
Cheers.
Hekate
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By: Hekate on February 13, 2011
at 10:38 PM
Hi Kitchen Crowd,
It is not often that I call out any of the uninvited ants who come here to M&H’s picnic, swarm all over and help themselves to the famous potato salad. They are the usual pests we have become accustomed to over time. They like to insult the intelligence of some of the brightest and best-informed women around. Interestingly enough, they seldom have the temerity to take on the GENTLEMEN who come here with their cogent and high levels of mental capacities to say nothing of emotional stability. BTW, most of the women are and have been happily married, some for many, many years, to strong, capable men.
That said, I personally take extreme umbrage toward any of these vermin who dare to call one of our most respected contributors a liar. I sincerely believe that lori is a person of the highest integrity.
I suggest that this particularly crude and pusillanimous small invertebrate crawl back under his rock and perhaps come back after he has ascended a number of notches up the phylogenetic scale approaching human status.
Aloha. Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on February 13, 2011
at 9:27 PM
“Put a cap on it. that might help.”
If you’re referring to condoms … who would disagree?
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By: Rutherford on February 13, 2011
at 8:12 PM
>>The day you can carry the pregnancy for her, that’s the day, it becomes your decision.<<
Nop: most of the comments/opinions have come from men. Some one-ups-manship is about all they can do.
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By: cryptoclearance on February 13, 2011
at 7:29 PM
>>So here’s the deal Bernard. Next time you impregnate a woman who you care about and tell her you would like to talk with her about what she does about her pregnancy, and she tells you to go to hell (as Lori would), then you can come back and tell me how your unconditional love got you through the experience.<<
Put a cap on it. that might help.
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By: cryptoclearance on February 13, 2011
at 7:23 PM
Helen & Margaret,
Do you happen to know how many unwanted children Rick Perry has adopted??
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By: Carol on February 13, 2011
at 5:26 PM
Bernard, the only difference of opinion that bothers me are commenters using dismissive language about ALL men and not owning up to it … and not seeing how it is counter-productive to a legitimate cause. I assure you, I don’t feel the least bit threatened. There are a number of people here who have presented well rounded well considered opinions. There are others (Lori are you listening?) who impress me as mindless radicals. It’s as simple as that.
So here’s the deal Bernard. Next time you impregnate a woman who you care about and tell her you would like to talk with her about what she does about her pregnancy, and she tells you to go to hell (as Lori would), then you can come back and tell me how your unconditional love got you through the experience.
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By: Rutherford on February 13, 2011
at 4:27 PM
Honest to goodness … is there a reading comprehension issue here? For the 1 millionth time I do NOT think government should be able to force women to carry through with a pregnancy.
I am so used to seeing liberals say “A” and conservatives quote them as saying “B” that I thought it was a purely conservative malady. I was wrong.
I’m also so used to seeing conservatives unable to hold two thoughts in their head at the same time that I also thought that was a conservative malady. Again, I’m wrong.
Folks … you can be pro-choice and also remind folks of the importance of personal responsibility. They are not mutually exclusive options.
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By: Rutherford on February 13, 2011
at 4:18 PM
poor Rutherford doesn’t know what being a man and respecting others is all about. A shame to not see the forest cause of the trees.
if he would not feel threatened by a difference of opinion and blame it on sex. such accepted sexist ways of viewing others, especially women. like women are the weaker sex and need to be kept barefoot, or that only men/women think “this or that” way.
getting stuck in others’ preconceived concepts about sexuality, power and control.
Love is unconditional or it’s not love.
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By: Bernard on February 13, 2011
at 4:16 PM
R- Well, if you think goverment should be able to force women to keep an unwanted pregnancy than it’s only right that men should be forced to pay their fair share of the expense. Of course, we know that plenty of women are left to carry the financial burden of a child with no support of the man in sight. And sorry – there is no way a man can or will understand as a woman understands the positive or negative impact a pregnancy has on one’s life or the decision to keep or terminate said pregnancy. I speak from experience you will never, ever, ever have. That’s just the way it goes.
It’s astonishing that the ‘Less Government” people want to allow the government into one of the most private, intimate, personal aspects of one’s life (to be clear, a WOMAN’S life) but Lord have mercy, don’t let the government get in the way of my right to purchase assault weapons.
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By: margaretandhelenFan on February 13, 2011
at 3:42 PM
Alaska, you definitely threaded that needle differently from the way I was threading it. I took “stick to football” to be a dismissive comment telling men that their opinion does not matter and they should just go back to their traditional role and leave the birth questions to women. Surely you agree that “stick to football” was hardly meant to be conciliatory. It also ignores the fact that there are women in government voting against your interest. If the premise of this post is the gov not intervening, then there should be no reference to men at all.
You are right that when anyone tries to define others, it gets dicey. I’m just trying to figure out the source of the anger, which does seem men-oriented. If I am misidentifying what is going on, my bad. I’m also not saying most of the women on this thread have a problem with men … but I do suspect some do.
NOP, thank you for the follow-up comment which helped me a lot more than “ridiculous”. This is a sensitive topic … some here read that I think men should have the right to have an opinion and then interpreted that as men should be able to make the decision. I DON’T believe that. I believe the decision to have an abortion ultimately rests with the pregnant woman. I also believe (as I said more than once) that government should NOT be involved.
The underlying premise of many of the comments in this thread is “men just shut up”. Well that has nothing to do with men making the decision. That has to do with men expressing an opinion. That is where my objection is. It’s suggests an attitude that men can only have malicious motives if they enter into this debate. I don’t find that fair.
I’ll check out the Thanksgiving letters. Thanks for the suggestion. I honestly don’t know what to make of this blog and I honestly have heard conflicting reports about it. The Molly Ivins theory was not mine, as you know if you read the comment.
Said … I have one definite character flaw. I get fixated when I feel like I’m talking to a brick wall. Granted some of you have very politely engaged with me and I really do appreciate it. So it’s not so much the man-hate thing that fixates me … it’s that I see so little variation of opinion here especially from the women. I get stubborn when I’m in an echo chamber. It may come from running a blog where almost everyone disagrees with me. I’m used to seeing different sides discussed.
Finally Lori, Lori, Lori. I hope at least some of the folks here know you are full of crap and are simply kind enough not to point it out. This is no lie … you are the FIRST person in my three years of blogging to attempt to “out” me on the Internet. I hope you’re happy with the distinction. So you know my real name, bully for you. It’s the only thing about me on my blog that I do not reveal. Every other thing I’ve written on my blog is true. I am who I say I am. And you have no idea who I am.
A Google search yields nothing without actually clicking on the link my dear. So the stuff you claim to have seen on my blog can only be seen with a click and I am quite sure you clicked … you certainly had to click a bit to find out my real name. So, not only are you incredibly rude, you are a liar.
The liberal cause is worse for having you, Miss Lori, a part of it. Have a nice day. 🙂
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By: Rutherford on February 13, 2011
at 3:36 PM
Wow even FOX is getting on board!
http://www.pollingreport.com/wh12gen.htm
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By: lori on February 13, 2011
at 3:04 PM
Rutherford:
What is it with your “man-hate” fixation? I don’t get it. At some point did a female verbally castrate you in a debate? You seem to be unable to let it go.
And how do you explain the outpouring of sympathetic comments and encouragement by the “man-haters” here to Craig regarding his wife’s medical condition? Did you miss that or did you deliberately ignore it? Or is that sort of response something you can’t understand?
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By: Anonymous on February 13, 2011
at 2:24 PM
Mr Bovell, I wouldn’t give you and your blog a single hit let alone lurk there. Anything I have learned of you and your utterances is on google for alllll the world to see… Believeeee meeeeeeeeeeee you aren’t worth the click of my finger. Good day sir …
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By: lori on February 13, 2011
at 2:11 PM
Rutherford, I noticed some confusion over on your blog, is Helen a satirist, in the spirit of Molly Ivins or not. Go into M&H’s archives and read Helen’s Thanksgiving letters to her family, if that doesn’t straighten up the confusion….
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By: No one's puppet on February 13, 2011
at 10:56 AM
Rutherford, you are conflicted in your feelings about abortion, so am I, so is everyone here, that is the human condition. But abortion must remain legal, safe, and available for some women. To require the father, a sperm donor, to sign off on a abortion before a woman can have one creates problems that only Court Hearings can settle. If the government can dictate who can have abortion, it can also decide who’s pregnancy can be allowed to go to term. Keep the government out of America’s bedrooms! That is why, I said, you were being ridiculous, you are giving your emotions equal weight to those of a thirteen year victim of incest. The day you can carry the pregnancy for her, that’s the day, it becomes your decision.
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By: No one's puppet on February 13, 2011
at 10:13 AM
R-
Any discussion of reproductive choice is highly charged emotionally and cuts back and forth across deep gender divides.
If it feels comfortable to you to settle back in the ready made explanation that a lot of women here hate men, by all means go for it but don’t elevate that stance to a “free exchange of ideas “.
It’s all well and good for a bunch of basically safe comfortable middle class folks to sit here and shoot the breeze , extending their own experience in life as a generalization of all human experience, but assuming a free exchange of ideas includes being able to define others and the conversation for all… well… Pffft.
The kitchen and football thingys are not comparable by the way…
The kitchen is the place women have traditionally worked to serve their families and menfolk, watching football a recent leisure activity for hardworking men resting at home. A better comparison would be for the ladies to adjourn to a local tea shop and let someone else take care of them while they relax.
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By: alaskapi on February 13, 2011
at 9:35 AM
As I said earlier Lori, I’ll stick to football when you stay in the kitchen. Until then, it’s a free exchange of ideas regardless of gender. 😉
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By: Rutherford on February 13, 2011
at 9:09 AM
NOP what about my points do you not wish to address? “Ridiculous” doesn’t address anything.
Lori, you’re badly in need of a dictionary. Flamers use incendiary language and call names. I’ve done neither here. If you want to address what I said on my own blog, stop lurking there like a coward and address me there. I’ll be more than happy to flame you there.
It’s really a sad state of affairs that no woman on this thread has the courage to call out man-hate when they see it. Some of you have allowed your pro-creation concerns to turn you into very bitter, angry and mean women. It’s sad, really.
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By: Rutherford on February 13, 2011
at 9:06 AM
can we say Flamer NOP? LOL LOL Nothing to see there folks just your typical flamer.. move on by… 😉
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By: lori on February 13, 2011
at 6:23 AM
Your arguments are ridiculous Rutherford.
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By: No one's puppet on February 12, 2011
at 10:26 PM
Come to think of it, if we changed “Sometimes men should just stick to football” to “Sometimes women should just stay in the kitchen” you all would have a brain aneurysm.
As I said before, there’s more than a good dose of man-hate informing this discussion and it’s sad because it is counter-productive.
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By: Rutherford on February 12, 2011
at 10:12 PM
You know what I hear a good number of men say? How do all of you feel about eliminating paternity suits? Since you feel the man has no say in the outcome of a pregnancy, then why should a man have any financial obligations with regard to that outcome? Either you view men as equal partners in the conception of a baby or you don’t. If men are tangential and peripheral to conception, why should they have any obligations? On the one hand you want men to behave responsibly and then in the same breath you insult them by saying their opinion doesn’t matter.
Look I agree that men can’t speak with the same authority as women on this subject because they will never have to bear a child for nine months. But that is a far cry from saying they should just “shut up” or “stick to football”.
P.S. If Congress and the Senate were completely populated by women, would you then want the government poking its nose into your choices?
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By: Rutherford on February 12, 2011
at 10:07 PM
way to go Helen. one smart lady. Noah is one dumb man. lol
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By: Bernard on February 12, 2011
at 8:59 PM
(I have not read all the posts yet so forgive me if this is repetitive)
Something you ‘Right-To-Lifers” fail to realize is that abortions were once illegal and they still happened. They just didn’t happen safely. In fact they were dangerous. Do you honestly think that making them illegal means they will stop? You are wrong. All you will be doing is making safe medical treatment unavailable to woman. That is all. Good job.
The very term “Right-to-Life” suggests those who are Pro-choice are anti-life. Isn’t it ironic that those Liberal Pro-Choice people were most likely the same ones who also apposed sending our young men and women off to fight Bush’s fake war (You said it, Larry Piltz!). What are we up to now – over 5,000 of our soldiers dead? And that doesn’t even take into consideration the dead civilians. Where are your proposed laws to prevent that?
And Chelsea, read Helen’s post again, this time slowly and carefully, and look up the big words you don’t understand. At no point did she suggest all abortions stemmed from rape, incest or abnormalities, but that women with pregnancies due to such things would be forced to listen to the heartbeats. That’s just plain disgusting. But you do suggest that unwanted pregnancies were due to a woman’s carelessness about birth control. Last I checked, it takes two to conceive yet you’re giving the man a pass and putting all the blame on the woman. Please join us in the 21st Century. Let’s put a different law through: Lets make a law that says every father of the unwanted pregnancy has to pay all pre/post-natal medical bills and then raise the child on his own whether or not he has a job, health insurance or even a place of his own to live. I’ll bet these rich, fat white men in Washington would change their tune about the right to choose but quick. (and as for putting up for adoption – have you checked just how overloaded the foster care system is these days? Are you remotely aware of what is going on?)
Why to conservatives feel they know how everyone should live his/her life? Why do they feel they have to force their beliefs down everyone’s throat and that the world has to live by their rules? If you don’t believe in abortion, don’t have one. But what gives you the right to take that choice away from someone else? (The answer: Nothing.) It’s been said before and I’ll say it again, the second men can conceive they can weigh in on this subject. Until then, and not a moment before, they really, REALLY need to shut up. Just SHUT UP.
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By: margaretandhelenFan on February 12, 2011
at 5:04 PM
R- I am an Alaska Native woman.
I have been blessed to never have suffered what my grandmother, mother, aunts and female cousins have at the hands of men who saw and, all too often, still see Native women as little more than creatures to use and abuse.
My grandmother, recently widowed and the mother of 11 children was raped and no one did a thing to bring the braggart to justice. My mother, aunts, and cousins were molested by soldiers and policemen during the WWII period here…
I have a cousin who is the product of a rape… his is not a happy life …
I had a cousin who drank himself to death because he never got over finding out he was adopted though my aunt and uncle loved him beyond measure as their own.
None of it is simple and none of it is tidy.
Some of the seamier sides of it all need to be talked about and I do not think they lower the tone of the argument- they flesh out the complexities though some of it is just nasty to think about.
I DID raise a son. He was raised to believe he should only become a father when he and a partner were ready to take on the responsibility, which translated into being responsible for birth control himself no matter what a partner might take on. He had plenty of friends who left birth control up to their partners or assumed partners would take care of it who found themselves with pregnant partners and huge decisions to be made by each of them.
Mine has been in a solid marraige for many years now and the 2 children they have were planned and desired by both .
If that was the way of all people there would not be the hash we have now, as NOP says- but it is NOT the way things work for far too many people.
And the discomfort and anger women so often express about men making pronouncements about reproductive choice is part of it all.
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By: alaskapi on February 12, 2011
at 4:02 PM
Of necessity it must be the woman choice! Otherwise, the potential of an incestuous father or brother, an abusive husband, even a rapist forcing her carry to term is too great. Every woman, I personally know, who is in a good relationship, values her significant other’s opinion, but when you start giving other persons any legal right to a woman’s body, you have essentially given all of society the right to make decisions affecting her life. Would anyone here really like for their thirteen year old daughter to testify before a judge before she could have an abortion? But that is such a big decision for just one person, perhaps a jury of twelve should make the decision? Maybe juries should decide which males are circumcised or if a man can have vasectomy? What about vasectomy reversals?
Guys, we like men, or at least the good men we choose to have in our lives, but we just don’t understand, why you are so insecure in your relationships, that you would give the power over our (your’s too) over to the State? As mothers and grandmothers, we hope all young women visit Planned Parenthood before they are sexually active.
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By: No one's puppet on February 12, 2011
at 2:59 PM
Alaska, to be clear, I did not say women’s pro-choice stance amounted to man-hate. There are tons of legitimate reasons to champion choice. I said that I feel one under current of the vitriol behind the pro-choice movement is man-hate … or to be more specific, the resentment and anger at the male’s biological prerogative to just walk away from a pregnancy. Further, I UNDERSTAND that anger. If I were a woman it would piss me off too. I have a daughter, but if I had a son I’d make damn sure he understood that he does NOT have the prerogative to walk away from a pregnancy.
My only point is that coming from that place of rage dilutes the pro-choice argument. It does not, in my judgment, help it.
By the way, I am black so I understand what it is to live in a country where equal rights were hard-won. (I’m thankful I am too young to have suffered the indignities of those who preceded me.) I am not suggesting giving up the fight for equal rights. I’m talking about tactics and effective rhetoric.
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By: Rutherford on February 12, 2011
at 2:39 PM
R-
While Lori and you are correct that “Moral issues should be discussed with your partner. spiritual advisor, children. Not with your elected officials.” it’s too bad you underestimate the depth of feeling many women have about abortion as part of reproductive freedom by defining it as “man-hate” .
There are certainly man-haters out there but given that it is in living memory that women came to be able to vote, own property independant of their menfolk, have their own credit, AND have a real say in how many children they have you are treading on a broader territory of old, old wounds.
As for pro life women- my family is full of them… That is their choice.
As for any women who cheered a murder… disgusting, shameful, and depraved… pffft on them.
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By: alaskapi on February 12, 2011
at 2:29 PM
I laughed so hard, my stomach aches! Thank you Lori.
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By: No one's puppet on February 12, 2011
at 1:13 PM
and for our weekend entertainment. hereeeeee’s Sarah!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/09/sarah-palin-media-addict-_n_821019.html
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By: lori on February 12, 2011
at 11:28 AM
from the office of Nancy Pelosi’s office:
House Republicans have begun the most radical restrictions on women’s health in our lifetimes.
Their extreme agenda would punish women and businesses by increasing their taxes if their health insurance covers the full range of reproductive health care. It would cut off funding for women’s health care clinics that offer reproductive health services. They are also refusing to drop their attempt to redefine rape.
We cannot and must not stay silent in the face of this extreme effort to undermine women’s health and reproductive freedom in our country.
In the face of this extreme agenda, we cannot stay silent.
With your urgent support, we will speak out strongly against the Republicans’ effort to deny millions of Americans access to reproductive health care.
…….The time to speak out is NOW. Do not allow all our hard work slip away with their backdoor tactics.
Atta girl MIKAT..
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By: lori on February 12, 2011
at 9:55 AM
Linda I understand this … but …
Doesn’t it bother anyone else on this board the degree to which man-hate fuels this debate? Part of the pro-choice stance seems to be grounded in the fundamental unfairness of human biology. Men get to enjoy sex and walk away. Women get to enjoy sex and then possibly deal with a nine month pregnancy and a good 18 years of child rearing. Doesn’t seem fair does it? The problem is that allowing anger at this inequity to fuel the debate takes credibility away from the pro-choice argument. The argument becomes emotional and vitriolic instead of logical.
Before Lori blew it with the “my body my choice” simplicity, she said something with which I totally agree: “Moral issues should be discussed with your partner. spiritual advisor, children. Not with your elected officials.” THIS nails down the argument. The pro-choice argument begins and ends here. Tossing in the “men are bastards” angle only hurts the argument.
By the way, what do some of you have to say to pro-life women? They do exist you know. There are women who applauded the murder of George Tiller. What do you think informs their perspective?
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By: Rutherford on February 12, 2011
at 9:55 AM
Hekate, thanks for elaborating on the military culture’s influence on the situation. It helped me understand it better.
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By: Rutherford on February 12, 2011
at 9:45 AM
Pfesser nailed it down quite nicely. It is fine to stand on principle, it is ignorant to say it is “simple”. There’s not a damn thing simple about it … otherwise the issue wouldn’t be the topic of debate yesterday, today and well into the future.
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By: Rutherford on February 12, 2011
at 9:43 AM
You go girl! You sure gave it to Noah!
Like a few others who posted above I am old enough to remember what it was like before Roe vs Wade. You don’t want to go back to that, please believe me! Women need to stand up to these men who want children born they don’t want to support! They are not the ones who have to carry a fetus for nine months then care for it the rest of it’s life, women do! Who gets custody 95% of the time, women! Doesn’t matter if they wanted the child or not.
So women, protect the right to govern your own bodies, you never know when you may want or need to make an important decision!
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By: Linda on February 12, 2011
at 8:56 AM
“It really is very simple.. my body my choice, not my governments.”
**************
That doesn’t seem a very “nuanced” argument. Sure you’re not a tea-partier? Libertarian?
Actually, it’s *not* that simple…to wit:
It’s my house; I can burn it down anytime I please.
It’s my car; I can run it into a tree anytime I please.
It’s my property; I can take a D-10 (that’s a Cat dozer) and render it completely useless.
I can cut my own arm off or take out my own appendix if I want, and it’s nobody’s business but mine.
It’s my own house; I can do all the wiring and plumbing myself without a permit – even though I nave no training or experience and think electricity is measured in microfarads per furlong, since it affects nobody but me.
It’s my dog; I can do whatever I want with it. I can take a big knife and gut it and make it walk down the street with its intestines hanging out.
***********
No, you can’t do these things. You can’t cut your own arm off, even though it is yours; you can’t attempt to hang yourself, even though is just you. And once you are preggers, you have entered into a realm where the State has an interest – an interest that grows as you do, and they are NOT going to give that interest up. Sorry, that’s just how it is.
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By: PFesser on February 12, 2011
at 8:51 AM
My nephew just sent me a great link to the Milton Friedman site.
http://miltonfriedman.blogspot.com/
His series, “Free to Choose” was a milestone in explaining economic theory to the masses. In it he shows clearly and unequivocally why allowing complete freedom of exchange between parties leads to the greatest prosperity for all – and by extension, how socialism is doomed to failure. The whole video series is on this blog. For those who really desire to understand the principles of capitalism, this is a must-see. It is a complete course in economics by itself, and of course those who are lazy won’t get very far, but the effort is manifold worth the knowledge gained.
A great explanation as to why the great Socialist Experiment and Nanny State now going on in the U.S. and U.K. will inevitably lead to our being relegated to the category of, “once-great civilizations.” Highly recommended.
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By: PFesser on February 12, 2011
at 8:31 AM
In a perfect world, young people would keep their hormones under control at all times and birth control would never fail. In a perfect world, meaningful sex-ed in public schools would be universal, and politicians would mind their own business.
But in this world, we just do our best.
Fan that Hekate.
When we start framing the “choice” discussion as a moral issue there is no where to go. Moral issues should be discussed with your partner. spiritual advisor, children. Not with your elected officals.
It really is very simple.. my body my choice, not my governments.
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By: lori on February 12, 2011
at 6:34 AM
Rutherford: “Hekate, this is a phenomenon that I find very disturbing. What was he resentful about? He had sex with a woman he (supposedly) loved. She got pregnant and if he had any sense at all, he knew it was best for the child to grow up in a two parent household. Again, he loved the woman so why should marrying her cause resentment?”
It was the mid-1970s. They were so young, scarcely in their 20s when I met them. I think she was still 19. His family was sure she “trapped” him or tricked him into marriage somehow, and disrespected her. Like a lot of couples in my condo complex he was an enlisted man in the military, and “If the Army wanted you to have a wife they would have issued you one.”
OB/GYN care for female dependents was dubious, as far as I could tell — so was pediatric care. In a population of young men, a goodly number with young families, this was virtually criminal, as far as this civilian is concerned. My heart went out to both of them, but mostly to her because she was trying so hard to hold it all together.
And theirs was only one of many stories I knew when I lived in that crowded condo complex.
In a perfect world, young people would keep their hormones under control at all times and birth control would never fail. In a perfect world, meaningful sex-ed in public schools would be universal, and politicians would mind their own business.
But in this world, we just do our best.
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By: Hekate on February 12, 2011
at 3:39 AM
Noah and his ilk can’t seem to be engaged in nuanced conversation, they just generally repeat their talking points without understanding/questioning the basis of their beliefs. They are generally “It’s my way or the highway” type folks.
And yes, to the rest of you, I last read these postings a few days ago, but I am setting out the line to see if Noah bites. I didn’t have time earlier this week to actually respond to him directly. He does seem to be a self googler, so I am curious to see if he bites.
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By: BGT on February 11, 2011
at 9:57 PM
Auntie, like many here, can’t wait for the sequential: Menopause 😉
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By: Anonymous on February 11, 2011
at 9:25 PM
>>Call your representative TODAY! Our daughters’ life just may depend on it.<<
unfortunately, my Congressional Rep is a well known far right Republican. As for my state, the House and assembly reps in my district are also Republican white males.
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By: cryptoclearance on February 11, 2011
at 2:28 PM
Apparently Mubarak has stepped down!
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By: delurkergurl on February 11, 2011
at 11:06 AM
And Lori what ideology is that? There are a lot of Republicans who feel that their Party has left them. Where do they go?
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By: Anonymous on February 11, 2011
at 9:47 AM
Well NOP my party did the right thing and said our tent isn’t big enough for that ideology, even at risk of losing power for a decade or so. And that’s my point. Our tent can be big but there is no room in the tent for certain things. I feel the risk we run, when we welcome everyone in, is diluting the agenda or a short term gain. A strong left voice. As I said without that voice we wouldn’t have moved the country as far as we have.
Hell just think of how far we have come since Clinton. Healthcare was dead in the water when he was in power. If it were up to the blue dogs it still would be!
Bushie wanted to amend the constitution to define marriage. Today, his own daughter is working for equal rights for same sex couples! It wasn’t the blue dogs who has forced those social changes.
just sayin, we must be careful not to dilute the waters too much or our message will be lost.
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By: lori on February 11, 2011
at 5:36 AM
Amen Auntie Jean!
Tell the GOP: Not on our watch. A woman’s right to life-saving medical care doesn’t end if she’s pregnant.
Call your representative TODAY! Our daughters’ life just may depend on it.
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By: lori on February 11, 2011
at 5:12 AM
Hi Congenial Gang,
Last I saw here at M&H’s, the abortion controversary was raging on and on – again and again and again. I suppose as long as there are men and women and more recently in history, progressive thinking vs.conservative views, the abortion issue will raise it’s ugly head over and over again as a political bone on gnaw on.
Here is a condensed version of an advanced course in OB-GYN on the human female’s reproductive system for those of you who cut class that day. Once the mature egg has been expelled from one of the two ovary(ies) during ovulation, it travels down the fallopian tube(s) toward the uterus. Fertilization takes place in the fallopian tube if one little rascal sperm is fast enough to swim up there from the vagina through the uterus into the fallopian tube in time. If not, the egg travels on down to where the uterus has been preparing for the ‘nest’ to incubate the fertilized egg.
The lining of the uterus has been thickening with a tissue rich in the mother’s blood supply the developing embryo will need to flourish. This tissue is called the ‘Endometrium’. The ‘placenta’ from the egg attaches itself to the endometrium. (Remember that term.) If the egg(s) is not fertilized, the endometrium is sloughed off along with the egg and expelled during what is known as the menstrual flow. Then the process starts all over again until the next month.
Now, if all proceeds according to schedule the embryo will progress to the fetal stage and complete its full gestation in approximately nine months. A normal childbirth will be the outcome.
This is only one of many examples of what can go haywire during the whole process. For reasons not fully understood, little patches of ‘endometrium’ turn up elsewhere in the pelvic cavity, including the interior of the fallopian tube. During the menstrual cycle these patches also slough off tissue that has nowhere else to go to be expelled immediately. ‘Endometriosis’ is a fairly common occurrence ranging from mild to severe. The condition can cause a variety of symptoms in an otherwise healthy female (such as ’Menstrual Cramps’). If it blocks the fallopian tubes, it is also a primary contributor to female infertility.
Occasionally, a fertilized egg will mistake one of those patches for endometrial tissue, embed itself there and begin to grow, especially in the fallopian tube. The fallopian tube is just that, a small, narrow tube with very little or no room to expand. With the rapidly growing embryo, probably no more than 6-7 weeks, the tube will explode (rupture) like a blown out tire and can cause severe hemorrhaging, or at best, develop a slow leak. Without that rich blood supply, the embryo quickly dies. This is known as an ‘Ectopic Pregnancy’ requiring urgent surgery to repair the damage. There is no hope whatsoever for the embryo but with a very rapid response, the mother’s life can be spared.
Of course, the fallopian tube is damaged beyond repair and has to be removed. However, like many other anatomical features such as two eyes, two ears, two hands, two feet, etc., there is redundancy. There is still a spare fallopian tube left.
Oddly enough, if a woman has a normal pregnancy, and thus no menstrual periods for nine months, those ‘endometrial patches’ sort of shrivel up and somewhat alleviate symptoms but never fully disappear until after menopause.
I hope this clarifies a few questions regarding human female anatomy and physiology. Perhaps a quiz will not be necessary later.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on February 11, 2011
at 1:52 AM
So Glad a friend shared your blog–I agree with most everything you say. You are all so nice been reading, all your support for those with health issues. I’m kind of one of those not so serious I think. Just started tests and doctor says might be even more tests. I am lucky I think I have insurance, well wish me well and hope they diagnose me soon.
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By: Anonymous on February 10, 2011
at 5:56 PM
Lori, we are exactly on the same page. They changed teams, but not their ideas, “we want our country back,” ring a bell?
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By: No one's puppet on February 10, 2011
at 4:31 PM
Hmm well NOP we disagree.
In the short term you are correct in worrying about the litmus test and these so called Independents (not that there is such a thing). But when you look at the big picture and look where we came and where we want to go we MUST keep pushing hard. Without our strong strong left voice we wouldn’t even be talking about Lilly Ledbetter, DADT,Choice, let alone equal rights…. We MUST hold our party’s feet to the fire. The country is moving left, obviously, as you stated, we must keep up the ight.
Our base is NOT Independents NOP. We must not fool ourselves and fall for the GOP talkiing point the way to win elections in the future is become more republican. The reason the GOP is in trouble is it has move drastically as a PARTY to the right leaving moderate republicans looking for a home… I will let them under my tent if THEY move to me not the other way around. Our agenda consistently polls +10-13 points higher. Going backwards is not the answer to success.
And as far as the southern strategy, we must not be on the same page, because we lost the south for one reason… civil rights….. I’m proud my party wrestled the power away from THAT RIGHT LEANING faction, too, and did the right thing, even if it meant losing some years in power.
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By: lori on February 10, 2011
at 3:58 PM
Tee hee Lori, not sure if you know it or not, but my husband is retired military.
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By: No one's puppet on February 10, 2011
at 3:46 PM
Rutherford, for some time now, I’ve seen some signs of litmus tests among our crowd, even here, and it frightens me, because on our own, without the support of Independents, we can never win another election. And we certainly can’t afford to lose moderate Democrats. In time and I sure hope that time is near, the Republicans are going to feel the repercussions of narrowing their base. Really showing my age, but I remember when the Republicans picked off the “Southern Democrats” and next the previously political apathetic fundamentalists suddenly took over the Republican Party and they still have the politicians and the Party by the you-know-whats. We need to learn from their example and not repeat it, because ultimately the Republican Party is going to implode. Now I got to run over to Daily Kos and hang with my people for awhile.
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By: No one's puppet on February 10, 2011
at 3:35 PM
Pfesser … will do!
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By: Rutherford on February 10, 2011
at 3:15 PM
NOP, this all depends on where you look. I think it’s safe to say on Daily Kos there definitely is a litmus test applied to Democrats.
But I’m with you. A diversity of opinion is a good thing. The only problem, as I said earlier in this thread is that Republican’s “singularity” keeps them on message. Our diverging opinions can cause so much in-fighting that we lose the race.
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By: Rutherford on February 10, 2011
at 3:14 PM
Ohhhhh NOP…. you are just a sucker for guys who where a uniform. You can’t fool me! LOL
and again I am bias I worked for my western PA guy. Harris Miller. That is ancient history though.
RE: litmus test. I agree, parties have to be careful one faction of the party doesn’t wield all the power. (In recent history that has been a GOP problem) However, it is extremely important to have a strong left voice to keep my party centered. Otherwise we will be overcome by the republicans that no longer have a seat at their own table. It’s been a long struggle to pull the country back from the RR and I don’t plan on conceding ANY ground back.
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By: lori on February 10, 2011
at 3:05 PM
Lori, I hope you have had a chance to learn more about Jim Webb, and are perhaps more likely to claim him as “one of us,” all I can say is Thank God, my party doesn’t have a litmus test and we don’t judge individuals on one or two differences of opinion.
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By: No one's puppet on February 10, 2011
at 2:48 PM
Lori,
Donation Made. Hekate, You said it sister!
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By: Mikat on February 10, 2011
at 2:35 PM
Mubarak to speak anytime now. You can watch it live here: http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
or on the Al Jazeera FB page
History is being made folks. My fingers are crossed that the arc will bend towards democracy for the Egyptian people.
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By: Greytdog on February 10, 2011
at 2:18 PM
Well with GOP lighters one never knows NOP! LOL
I am pretty familar with his resume NOP. I worked against him in the primary! (I should say I worked FOR Harris) LOL I’m sure he is a lovely man just politically he is a little to right of center for my taste. A leftie he isn’t .
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By: lori on February 10, 2011
at 2:08 PM
I have mixed feelings about Senator Webb. Sometimes I could strangle him and sometimes I am proud he represents me. He is looking into the long sentences and extremely high prison populations, especially here in VA, and has observed that it is unreasonable. “Either we are the meanest people on the planet or our judicial system is doing something wrong.” I agree with that. His entire life has been one of hard-nosed pugnaciousness, which I appreciate and admire. OTOH I think his military experience and tenure as Secy of Navy has made him too militaristic and too far right.
If you read his book, “Born Fighting,” you will gain some insight into his personality. Paraphrasing – “If you insult a New Yorker, he will sue you. If you insult a mountain man, he’ll kill you.” Yep. I’ve seen it and I can relate to someone else who understands that mindset.
Since he never seems to satisfy either side, I think he is probably doing a good job. I’d like to keep him – especially since the Republican in VA who is almost sure to win the next time if he retires will almost certainly be far, far to the right.
Rutherford, would you mind to email me at: pfesser53 at gmail dot com? Thanks much.
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By: PFesser on February 10, 2011
at 2:02 PM
Lori, he is a Democrat, who else would he caucus with? Check out his Wikipedia Bio, he is a pretty remarkable individual.
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By: No one's puppet on February 10, 2011
at 1:59 PM
I hear you NOP.. and he did caucus with the Dems, which is a good thing. I certainly don’t want to take a cue from our counterpart and shove my party so far to the left we won’t be able to govern. And I know without Virginia it will be difficult to hang on to the Senate next time. BUTTTTT the tide she is a turning and in about 15 years a democrat will be able to be a real democrat again not a GOP light, as Webb is. 😉
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By: lori on February 10, 2011
at 1:22 PM
Never forget Lori, we are the big tent party, look what happened and is happening to the Republicans. I don’t want everyone following a party line, Webb stood up for what he believed and he followed through and delivered for the Commonwealth of Virginia. And damn, if I haven’t come to love you too Lori.
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By: No one's puppet on February 10, 2011
at 1:03 PM
You tend to like those dinos NOP.. That is alright, I love ya anyway. 😉
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By: lori on February 10, 2011
at 12:36 PM
If this Liberal still lived in Virginia, she’d vote for Senator Webb again, if he choose to run. I find it rather refreshing that the Senator introduced the needed legislation he ran on and passed it, and that he now feels that it is time for him to return to private life. Thank you Senator Webb, for being a man of your word and thank you for opening the Senator every morning, so your fellow Senators could go home on break and George W. Bush couldn’t bypass Senate approval on his appointments. Best wishes in your future endeavors, I remain proud of my vote.
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By: No one's puppet on February 10, 2011
at 11:10 AM
Prof: thanks for the advice. He has had a written will for some time now. Same for his preferences for burial. One thing about the latter. This goes for everyone. If you want such and such done for your remains, make darn sure there is 1.) sufficient funding for it, and 2.) whoever gets this job is physically up to it and does not have health issues of their own. If 1 and 2 are not resolved, they are free to do as they damn well like.
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on February 10, 2011
at 10:49 AM
Hekate
That was a beautiful post. Not that the subject was beautiful but the thought and the presentation of real life.
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By: Kelly on February 10, 2011
at 9:32 AM
Please consider standing with Democrats to protect women’s rights. Please sign the following petition. 😉 namaste
For 25 years, hospitals have been required to provide the emergency care necessary to save a patient’s life. Now, under new legislation in the House of Representatives, hospitals could put the lives and health of women at risk.
Radical Republicans first tried to redefine rape. Now the so-called “Protect Life Act” would allow hospitals to deny women emergency care to end life-threatening pregnancies. This is just one example of the Republicans’ extreme agenda.
Add your name to speak out against this extreme legislation. Tell the GOP: Not on our watch. A woman’s right to life-saving medical care doesn’t end if she’s pregnant.
https://dscc.org/action?action_KEY=152
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By: lori on February 10, 2011
at 9:28 AM
Hekate, this is a phenomenon that I find very disturbing. What was he resentful about? He had sex with a woman he (supposedly) loved. She got pregnant and if he had any sense at all, he knew it was best for the child to grow up in a two parent household. Again, he loved the woman so why should marrying her cause resentment?
To my mind, there is ZERO ambiguity concerning abortion in the case of non-consensual sex and mortal danger to the mother. Where I find considerable moral ambiguity is the case of men and women refusing to accept (despite centuries of evidence) the connection between agreeing to have sexual intercourse and its possible consequence. That man knew what every man has known since time began … that sex can lead to pregnancy. He had ZERO right to be “resentful”.
Recreational sex has its risks. So long as we continue to ignore the very wise choice of only screwing people with whom you think you could spend 20 years raising a kid, we will have this terrible abortion debate raging everywhere. (Please don’t accuse me of jumping on the Bristol Palin abstinence only band wagon. I think that’s ridiculous. BUT I do think we as a society need to reconnect sex with RELATIONSHIPS. It would help matters, not hurt.)
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By: Rutherford on February 10, 2011
at 9:19 AM
So right G8dog,
If memory serves me correctly Webb was secretary of the navy under Reagan?or some such thing. He is about as “left leaning” as Bayh is/was. When I read that I had to throw up a little in my mouth! LOL
Yeah, we may lose a Senator from VA but we aren’t losing a progressive leftie that’s fo sure. I think he backed us maybeeeee 50 percent of the time? He gave Reid a hell of a time when talk about the Patriot Act arose a year or so ago… No great loss for the cause there.
Also concerning the new “rape” bill… I know they backed down a bit but as PI said a few days ago, “they” aren’t going to be content to leave it be.. it’s something we allllllll need to watch. They are taking the backdoor approach hoping nobody notices.
Good call……. and congrats on your new bizness… much continued success. ❤
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By: lori on February 10, 2011
at 8:15 AM
Helen, you might want (okay maybe not) to look at the wording in the GOP bill gutting abortion funding. . . they maintain their Forced Birth position. While no longer wanting to redefine rape (this year), they still want to ensure that all women are required to carry a child full term and then to hell with her. Furthermore they now want to place hospitals in the position of having to always choose the life of the fetus over the life of the mother. In other words, American Woman, you’re just a disposable incubator. Your value is equal to the worth of your uterus.
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By: Greytdog on February 10, 2011
at 6:17 AM
PFesser Sen Webb has never been and never will be a “member of the Left”. Webb has never been progressive or even moderately liberal. You do know that he opposed Jan Scruggs and the choice of Maya Lin’s design? Webb wanted the memorial to be a grandiose Dulce et Decorum Est memorial, while Scruggs wanted more of a statement about the humanity. Jack Wheeler actually facilitated between the two hardnose positions. (We lost Jack in early January 2011) But Webb never considered himself a progressive or a “Leftie” – he was Blue Dog through and through – in fact, Webb was GOP until his son went to war. Then he became a Dem only for election purposes. Those of us on the Left are not sad about his departure.
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By: Greytdog on February 10, 2011
at 6:13 AM
Helen, I’m always glad I stop by, though I’m not a regular part of this community.
My feelings about legal abortion solidified just before it became legal, when I was in college. Me and my bum knee were waiting for a blood test at a local clinic to see if it was gout or something else, when a mother and daughter walked by. The girl barely came up to her mother’s shoulder — she looked all of 12 years old — and she was a good 8 months pregnant. I still remember how profoundly shocked I felt that any adult in their right mind would have let this child’s pregnancy come to term, as it was very dangerous for such a young girl.
I think that’s all I allowed myself to think at the time, though I understood full well that she might have not known or might have hidden it until too late for fear of further abuse.
Does anyone imagine that a politician’s daughter of that age would …? Well, except for that bitch Palin, who uses her kids for props in her roadshow melodrama.
Later when I was a married mother myself one of my younger friends told me how she left home because her old man was constantly feeling her up. She never told until she came back for a visit and found out he was squeezing her younger sister’s breasts too. Got date-raped not long after she started living on her own, actually took an airline to a different state so she could get a legal abortion that wasn’t available in her home state, and completely blanked on which state it was afterward. She had to do it, there is no question in my mind, and it hurt.
Said her husband was the first guy who was really nice to her, so she slept with him without coercion, but being young and quite fertile you know what happened next. She told her boyfriend she was going to have this baby regardless, because she was not going to have another abortion.
He married her, which was the right thing to do, but there was a lot of resentment in his family and he was resentful too. I know because I had the apartment below theirs.
So many stories in my life, as many as there are women, and as a woman I have taken them in. I wanted my 2 kids and I had them after uncomplicated pregnancies. I remember my mother’s miscarriages that almost killed her from blood loss. My sis-in-law had pre-eclampsia and bed rest for months with each of her pregnancies. My daughter has one grade school age kid, but has had miscarriages and lost a daughter to SIDS; she’s pregnant again and we are so hoping for the best.
“Choose life” is a simple-minded slogan for simple-minded people — choosing life can break your heart as surely as anything. And a complicated pregnancy can kill the mother.
Damn politicians and right-to-lifers think the decisions are easy. They think women are dumb cows who have to be told how to live. I think they’re afraid of us.
Women are moral agents and our choices are hard, and as adult human beings we are prepared to live with the consequences of our choices.
Love you, Helen — you’re a wise old woman. I’m only 63 — I hope to be fearless like you when I grow up!
Hekate
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By: Hekate on February 10, 2011
at 4:15 AM
Pfesser, thanks for the compliment. The “regulars” at my blog consider it their local watering hole. They also like to play darts and I’m often the dart board. 🙂
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By: Rutherford on February 9, 2011
at 8:56 PM
Just to let you know I am still here. I have not been here for a variety of reasons.My computer was giving me problems with the long long posts and taking a long time to load. I was having some health problems that made me not much interested in doing much.
Craig – Just to let you know several have suggested I tell you about my experience with breast cancer. First I am 81 years old, Have had cancer, stroke ,spent 5 weeks with a leg cast and guess what-I am still here. I had mastectomy 16 years ago followwed by chemo. During the chemo I spent most of the time on the bed, but between sessions I managed to see two or three clients.(Iam a massage therapist)began teaching it and was at work up till I had the stroke.
BEst of luck to you and your wife. It is a hard road but with your love and support, she will come through it.
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By: Grandma Katie on February 9, 2011
at 8:11 PM
Scheibe! Jim Webb is not going to run! The only decent democrat in all of my home state of Virginia, and he is throwing in the towel. Maybe Limbaugh is right – the Left has no staying power. Great talkers, but that’s about it…all hat, no cattle. Jesus what’s wrong with these people…
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By: PFesser on February 9, 2011
at 7:11 PM
Rutherford-
You have a pretty impressive blog there. Several hundred comments on each post, and you don’t have to go months between posts to accumulate them. Nice going.
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By: PFesser on February 9, 2011
at 7:05 PM
Those republicans in Washington are up to it again!!! What’s their problem?!?
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By: Curious Chris on February 9, 2011
at 7:02 PM
Mageen –
“Anonymous, thanks for the info on the medical profession and dabbling in life expectancy. Have been advised by many an R.N. that it is pretty much all just wild guessing. It seems that it is the spouse (female) that is in need of this data inasmuch as she pretty much gets left in the legal lurch by all the undone stuff of the deceased. If the patient gets the message correctly, steps can be taken in time to protect the survivors. Yup. I’ve seen this happen with guys who are total procrastinators and the widows who turn from loving to hating his memory.”
By the way, that was me; I hadn’t checked in for a while an the address line didn’t autofill. Apologies.
Sorry for copying your whole post, but I think you had a couple of really important points.
I don’t know why folks with serious illness don’t plan properly – just scared I guess, and don’t want to think about it, but as you say, it surely screws up those they leave behind.
Life expectancy is not really a wild guess, but it varies so much that doctors have a really tough time dealing with the uncertainty, but having said that, they also need to realize the patient and their families need some guidelines. My brother caught cancer from smoking four years ago and lived nearly two years – about a year longer than expected, but by the end of things he matter-of-factly gave me Granddad’s pocket watch, Dad’s guns and other things. He made all the arrangements he needed to do for his wife, including getting her a soft-riding car. Then he took his bed and died. We had a lot of differences, but principled he was. We never spoke of death; he never showed the slightest fright, but he did what he needed to do. Those mountain people have a real depth of character.
IANAL, but if you feel your husband’s disease is advanced, make sure you have a will. Otherwise he will be “intestate” and the probate system will take care of its own by awarding that which you and your husband have earned to a nest of lawyers.
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By: PFesser on February 9, 2011
at 6:59 PM
Nor was his qualified apology sufficient.
But then, I’ve been told I gave an inadequate apology to Claire so I guess Craig and I are two peas in a pod. 🙂
P.S. Harvey, I’ll have to look up your new scooter just in case I need a replacement down the line. I’m glad you found one you like. Aren’t the damn things liberating? I can now go to the mall without worrying about sitting every ten minutes to catch my breath. It’s a beautiful thing.
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By: Rutherford on February 9, 2011
at 5:34 PM
Hello All, Just wanted to Thank you all who gave me advice on buying my new scooter. “Terry in Texas” I went with the one you recommended. I now have the Espree Titan and it is down right wonderful. Sure was nice of all of you to respond to my original question to Margaret and Helen.
P.S. Craig, my grandson told me what the letters stand for in your response. All I can say is that you are not a very kind person.
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By: Harvey on February 9, 2011
at 5:25 PM
Cryptoclearance, it was intestinal cancer. He is now minus a number of feet of plumbing and it doesn’t bother him a bit. He just goes rockin’ along doing what the doctor told him to do. So many people cannot understand why he isn’t sick all the time from the chemo. No side effects at all yet. Was once on the Kaiser program many years ago but when that job imploded due to reorganization, I lost that plan. I do remember that it covered a whole lot more than others did and at a comfortable price, but I never saw the same doctor twice so I had a feeling of discontinuity. Have been advised to ring up the social worker at the local hospital and find out about support groups for spouses of cancer patients. Have been incredibly busy, however, just when I really don’t need not be. Thanks for the thought!
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on February 9, 2011
at 2:38 PM
Am I the only person who thinks it is telling that Texas is the state with the HIGHEST incidence of excecutions (Death Penalty), the lowest incidence of Governor pardons, and the highest incidence of DNA evidence causing reversals of death-penalty convictions?
And yet Gov. GoodHair wants to make decisions FOR women. Because he “respects life”.
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By: Sewmouse on February 9, 2011
at 2:27 PM
Mageen: I haven’t been able to real all the posts, but I gather that your husband has prostate cancer. Is there some way to privately contact you? I have been through this with my husband. We have Kaiser Permanante and they have an excellent program including support groups for both diagnosed men and their spouses/partners. anyway I would love to be able to privately be in touch. Just don’t know how to do that.
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By: cryptoclearance on February 9, 2011
at 1:38 PM
Excellent post, Helen. My personal frustration is the hypocrisy that seems to be strong within the Republican party and many, but not all, pro-lifers: once the baby is born, mother and child are on their own. They oppose government spending on providing healthcare or ensuring that the mother has access to affordable childcare so she can go to school or work. I would have alot more respect for the Republican party and many pro-lifers if I felt that they embraced the whole child – not just the unborn child.
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By: Sami on February 9, 2011
at 10:39 AM
Anonymous, thanks for the info on the medical profession and dabbling in life expectancy. Have been advised by many an R.N. that it is pretty much all just wild guessing. It seems that it is the spouse (female) that is in need of this data inasmuch as she pretty much gets left in the legal lurch by all the undone stuff of the deceased. If the patient gets the message correctly, steps can be taken in time to protect the survivors. Yup. I’ve seen this happen with guys who are total procrastinators and the widows who turn from loving to hating his memory.
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on February 9, 2011
at 7:13 AM
While I’m here … to Adiena, I have mixed feelings about the O’Reilly interview. On the one hand, he was incredibly disrespectful to the President. On the other hand, Obama acquitted himself so well that he almost seemed to enjoy the give and take. I think Obama came out looking good and O’Reilly came out looking like …. O’Reilly. 🙂
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By: Rutherford on February 8, 2011
at 11:23 PM
Thanks for the warm welcome Pfesser. My blog should be linkable via the name on my comments but here it is again: http://rutherfordl.wordpress.com
I have the odd distinction of writing a liberal blog frequented almost exclusively by conservative commenters. Some folks read my articles and quickly exit (perhaps giving me a shout-out on Twitter) others venture into the comments section at their own risk. It gets pretty rough in them thar hills. 🙂 Be sure to stop by.
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By: Rutherford on February 8, 2011
at 11:20 PM
Was it me, or did Bill O’Reilly look like he was poised to run if Obama got up to smack his ass during the “Interview” on Sunday?
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By: Adiena on February 8, 2011
at 6:25 PM
Rutherford –
I’ve been tied up for several days and must have missed your entre at M&H. Welcome! I’ve just skimmed over most of the past week’s postings, but you certainly seem to handle yourself well. Bravo. It’s always good to see fresh points of view.
Did you say you have your own blog? What is the URL? I would like to give it a look-over.
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By: PFesser on February 8, 2011
at 4:48 PM
Craig –
“One thing though..I have a tough time keeping my wife’s spirits up. The nights are
the worst. Its like the “boogey” man comes out and plays with your mind.”
Yep – the nights are the worst. Everything looks bad then. You are tired, sleep-deprived, and all the worst possibilities play through your mind. I’ve often wondered whether it is daytime or night that more represents reality…
Mageen –
“I also think this estimate is a CYA move on the part of the docs. If the patient lives beyond that estimate, terrific! If a doc were to tell someone that they have many, many more years yet and that patient suddenly dies of the disease, imagine the blowback on the doc. ”
I know a little about that, actually. Docs understand the statistics just fine, and they HATE bringing life expectancy into the conversation, but patients and their families demand it and won’t be satisfied otherwise. We don’t worry about blowback; we worry about giving the patient and his family bad information. Statistics for life expectancy only apply to populations, not single individuals – life expectancies are just calculated averages that don’t really tell you very much, but patients think they do. As we used to say in research, “Under the most tightly controlled conditions of temperature, pressure, light, flow, pH and nutrients, the experiment will do as it damned well pleases.”
Unfortunately, so will cancers and the people they attack. Believe me, giving someone “X months to live” is the last thing any physician wants to do, but most of the time they can’t avoid it. Every patient will respond to treatment in his/her own way, and giving “statistics” just muddies the water and makes the MD’s job even harder.
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By: Anonymous on February 8, 2011
at 4:27 PM
I have a friend who recently had an ectopic pregnancy, where the fetus implants in a fallopian tube rather than the uterus. Her tube ruptured, she was in so much pain she went into shock, she had emergency surgery and they told her that if the baby hadn’t been removed immediately (with her fallopian tube) she would have died.
That baby had no POSSIBILITY of living, it couldn’t, it didn’t implant in a uterus. Yet under this proposed law a doctor could have the right to refuse her treatment because it bothers their CONSCIENCE. It’s… creepy. Of what else is that sort of “doctor” going to decide god should actually be in charge? God broke that leg, he’ll heal it if he plans for you to walk again? How is that a doctor?
Also, if you let the mother die, well, fetuses have a low survival rate in corpses. How is that not obvious?
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By: twistedspinner on February 8, 2011
at 12:05 PM
For all the candle lighters on the front porch, thank you!!!!
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on February 8, 2011
at 7:04 AM
Craig and Mageen,
I will light my candles for your spouses. My thoughts are also with you both. Being a caregiver isn’t easy. I took care of my grandfather for three years before he died. He didn’t have cancer, though. He just had Emphysema, end-stage COPD, and dementia. My only wish is that I knew then what I know now. There would have been more laughter and silly, quirky moments. You two take care of yourselves, as well. You can’t be what your spouses need when you are neglecting your own needs.
Love and peace.
OG
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By: OceanGypsi on February 7, 2011
at 10:03 PM
Craig and Mageen-
It is a CYA thing mixed in with some statistics.
My ma is still here after being told she wouldn’t make 3 years…that was 25 years ago.
There were some really rough patches along the way.
The best she has been able to say about why, cuz the docs can’t, is that she “had things to do”.
She’s done a lot too.Trips to the far East, Europe, places in US she had never gotten to, watch grandkids grow up, welcome great grands, grow gardens extraordinaire…
I’m hoping Val and Mr Mageen have things to do.
Best wishes!
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By: alaskapi on February 7, 2011
at 8:20 PM
Road trip tomorrow to Dallas for day surgery Wednesday.
…and thanks NOP.
Later Friends…..
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By: Craig on February 7, 2011
at 3:21 PM
Mageen in Old Virginny,
Agree about the CYA..comment.
They also could use some bed side manners updates as to what to tell the patient and “how” they say it. I could have decked a woman doc a month ago. Her whole treatment team there and she was the only one talking..I told her two days later unless they were there to help.. “we did not need viewers for a car wreck”.
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By: Craig on February 7, 2011
at 3:19 PM
Mageen, I like your attitude and hope that your husband shares it. So true your husband is a real person not a average or a statistic. I hope he and you share a number of productive years together! Same for you and Val, Craig.
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By: No one's puppet on February 7, 2011
at 2:40 PM
Craig, the life expectancy estimate is just that. I have checked around and found that there is an upward spiral of people who have been told to just chuck it all in and write their will who are still here after rounds of chemo and surgery and are enjoying life a great deal. This life expectancy stuff is also based on actuarial data; i.e., at his age he has surpassed his estimated maximum life span. I also think this estimate is a CYA move on the part of the docs. If the patient lives beyond that estimate, terrific! If a doc were to tell someone that they have many, many more years yet and that patient suddenly dies of the disease, imagine the blowback on the doc. Knew an eldery man not all that long ago who had everything wrong with him and lived into his 90s when according to medical science he should have died years earlier.
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on February 7, 2011
at 2:21 PM
Mageen in Old Virginny,
They actually gave your husband that prognosis?
I’m sorry for that. Prayers and hope that Doc’s can find other treatments in the mean time. Prostate?
Its the waiting for test results that drive ya crazy….since nothing can be done until they know the type of animal they are treating.
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By: Craig on February 7, 2011
at 2:11 PM
Slader,
You can crawl back under your rock now.
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By: Craig on February 7, 2011
at 2:06 PM
Craig, this experience is different for everyone. I know that sounds like a useless old bromide, but shucks, its the truth. My husband took all the bleepin’ round around he got before surgery with way more aplomb than I did inas much as a half century ago I had some nursing experience and could smell non-professionalism a long way off. The surgery did not blow his mind, nor the post-op period or the screw up with the pills that almost did not arrive. The night after the chemo left him kind of restless, but I think that had more to do with the near-party atmosphere of the treatment center. He has had deep and full nights worth of sleep since. This is amazing considering he lost both his brothers to different types of cancer in the past 30 years and so many other male relatives did not survive cancer many, many years ago. Did not know this until he got his own diagnosis! Consider also the amazing calm even in the face of a projected life expectancy of two years or a little more despite everything that can be done for him. He is making every day count.
Good luck to you and your wife.
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on February 7, 2011
at 1:07 PM
What a loser, Craig.
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By: Slader on February 7, 2011
at 1:00 PM
You rock Helen!
Not only do I believe that every women should have a choice, it’s a personal choice and not for every woman. Just like I believe that every human should have a right to die choice… But I digress…. I mean it.. Really….
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By: Sisu on February 7, 2011
at 11:46 AM
I thought Harvey was making fun of M&H.
Thats why I reacted.
I apologize if that was a legitimate request for brand name.
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By: Craig on February 7, 2011
at 9:55 AM
To all of you, a great big Thank you. I’ll see what I can find out about all of these.
You all have been a big help and I appreciate it.
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By: Harvey on February 6, 2011
at 8:34 PM
Harvey, I use a Pride Sonic mobility scooter in lieu of walking long distances. I’m not sure they make the Sonic model anymore but I’d still recommend the Pride brand.
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By: Rutherford on February 6, 2011
at 8:21 PM
Harvey,
My Dad has the Espree Titan by PaceSaver. He has had it for over 3 years and it works great! Highly recommended by his doctor too.
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By: Terry in Texas on February 6, 2011
at 7:58 PM
Thank you Laurie. I will look into that one. I appreciate it.
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By: Harvey on February 6, 2011
at 6:49 PM
Harvey: My father has the Ranger brand. Model Safari LTD. He loves it and it seems to be very well built. Hope that helps!
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By: Laurie R. on February 6, 2011
at 6:44 PM
Wow, Craig. That was a little cold. Don’t you think??
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By: Stacey on February 6, 2011
at 6:22 PM
Craig,
Is STFU a brand? I have the drive medical phoenix three wheel. It is not very good and my insurance company will cover the cost of replacing it. Any information would be appreciated.
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By: Harvey on February 6, 2011
at 6:17 PM
Harvey ,
STFU.
Regards,
Craig
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By: Craig on February 5, 2011
at 10:45 PM
Mageen in Old Virginnny,
You almost described my wife’s first and second experience to a tee.
WE had wanted a private room that are available.. But since it was her first chemo they wanted her out and in the open where they could observe her.
As you so described, it was a community “thing”.
When we went back for the second Chemo, it really was almost cathartic to be
in amongst the rest of the patients.
Hope your and your husband’s road is a smooth one….
One thing though..I have a tough time keeping my wife’s spirits up. The nights are
the worst. Its like the “boogey” man comes out and plays with your mind.
You want a quick result, yet I understand we have a long road ahead.
Peace and love to you….
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By: Craig on February 5, 2011
at 10:42 PM
What brand of scooters are those that you two ladies are using? I need a new one.
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By: Harvey on February 5, 2011
at 5:53 PM
Kelly, many years ago there was a hospital in Michigan that was absolutely fear stricken when a woman was ambulanced in bleeding like a stuck pig from a pregnancy gone wrong. They were just too horrified to help her because the situation involved the uterus. Yes, they would try to transfer her over to another hospital, but such a hospital would have to be taking emergency patients (their emergency room was not full) and the patient would have to somehow survive the transfer. This was too damn dicey for words. That hospital got slammed by accreditation outfits and was almost forced to close its doors. It did undergo a change in management and has worked its way back to some sort of public confidence but those bad old days were not at all forgotten. This is what would happen if Pitts and his ilk get this bill forward. Once again, though, it would have to go through the Senate and if it squeeks its way onward, ten to one it would be vetoed in the White House.
Like I have always said, all them that screams OH I Am So Pro-Life My Teeth Hurt are actually a long, long way from being so. Of source, no female of his family would ever find herself in this kind of a crunch. Oh, my, no! That wouldn’t be humanly possible, and if it were so, would he actually stand back and let her die?
Pitts’bill is totally the pits!!
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By: Mageen in Old Virginnny on February 5, 2011
at 4:45 PM
Here’s a question – what is the difference between the rights (and value) of the woman 5 minutes before sex and 5 minutes after (when she might have conceived)?
According to the Protect Life Act – apparently her rights and value take a hard turn into non-existent.
Yep – back to the 1800’s. Forward to yesterday.
Lysistrata is looking more reasonable all the time.
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By: judith on February 4, 2011
at 10:29 PM
They may have backed down on the forcible rape issue – but now there is a bill that would let the mother die. They call it The Protect Life Act – when it does not protect life at all. http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/new-gop-law-would-allow-hospitals-to-let-women-die-instead-of-having-an-abortion.php?ref=dcblt
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By: Kelly on February 4, 2011
at 8:27 PM
PI….I’m with ya sister.. My eyes are wide open.
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By: lori on February 4, 2011
at 4:52 PM
Mageen, I hope your husband tolerates his treatments OK.
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By: delurkergurl on February 4, 2011
at 3:51 PM
Helen, thank you again!!! I too live in Texas and I am profoundly utterly sick and tired of Governor Good Hair. Obviously he thinks that every single child is conceived by two people who have the means and the love to take care of that child. Of course, once he has prevented you from any CHOICE, he isn’t going to provide any assistance – not medical care, not extended unemployment benefits, not daycare, not even a box of Pampers. And with his plans to gut the budget, that child will have the basic education of a goat herder living in the Andes and absolutely no chance of attending college.
I might just believe the moron if he would take a few foster children into his home….you know the one that my tax $’s are paying for? That expensive huge rental that he and his wife need?
Please keep it up and stay healthy. We need more people like you.
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By: Vicki on February 4, 2011
at 2:54 PM
Mageen, Glad to hear it’s going well with your husband.
Women of Helen’s age (same for many of us here, I’m 15 yrs younger) all remember what it was like BEFORE. Seems like the trouble with many is that they can’t get past the idea that the world is just the same for everyone i.e. exactly like it is for them. They either lack the perspective due to as yet unlived years or they just never got that empathy gene installed.
I’ve been doing a lot of genealogy this winter. Discovered my great grandmother had a an illegitimate child in 1865. Baptism record clearly states it. Not surprised since HER mother died 6 months after she was born and she was taken care of by several female relatives. GG died 6 months after her last child, my grandfather was born. Her illegitimate daughter took care of the younger children. GG’s second daughter had 2 children with no father present on the Census records. One of those listed Ggrandfather’s name on his marriage license as his father. Don’t know if he was also the biological father.
It’s taken more than 100 years to finally change enough laws so that women are beginning to see some choices they can make. I suspect Helen wants to make sure we don’t go back to the dark ages.
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By: HRH sofia EQ on February 4, 2011
at 1:58 PM
First, for all those gathered on the front porch, the first round of chemo turned out to be similar to an office party. Strange thing to say? Well, listen to this. When husband arrived at the chemo center he found himself in a largish pleasant roomwhere other patients were also hooked up undergoing chemo. A very, very diversified group, cancer being such an equal opportunity disease. There was pleasant chatter, even the opportunity to read whatever, and certainly to have lunch. About the only thing they didn’t do was sing kum-by-yah. He was fine after the five hours of treatment, got himself home and cooked dinner (I get in late).
For both of us, it was a good day.
Also good to hear that the rethugs protect the rapist bill got clobbered. It hadn’t a chance in perdition of ever being signed by a President who is the father of two daughters. Ya think the rethugs responsible for this farce learned anything? I am now taking nickle bets, 100 to 1 that they didn’t.
It is unfathomable to me that this crew cannot imagine their own mother, daughter, sister, wife or whoever close to them being attacked. From what they were trying to do (the different tiers of rape) it reminded me of many, many years ago when a cop told me that if I was ever raped I should just lie back and enjoy it. Anybody else out there remember that kind of thinking? Outrageous then and even more so now when it is actually being politicized. Yup, that’s right. It is.
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By: Mageen in Old Virginnny on February 4, 2011
at 1:36 PM
In 2006, the Federal government helped pay for 191 abortions. This issue was discussed at length by our fearless leaders to save $ .002 per taxpayer.
Nicely explained on the Jon Stewart show.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-february-2-2011/rape-victim-abortion-funding
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By: HRH sofia EQ on February 4, 2011
at 12:56 PM
lori-
This bill raised a lot of hackles (rightfully so) because of the atrocious attempt to redefine what kind of rapes could be covered. The estimates of how many rape victims become pregnant run around 5% and the estimates about how many of those get abortions run around 50% -there’s a lot of argument about what the numbers are but top estimates run around 14000/yr.
Click to access ACF1DD5.pdf
This cynical manipulation of a hot button issue with the subsequent semi backing off ( thanks Elsie! ) covers for an even more nasty attempt to use the time honored “starve the beast” – the method of choice for the Regressives, as you so rightly call them.
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By: alaskapi on February 4, 2011
at 12:24 PM
You can say that again PI. Just another example of the hypocritical Regressive’s way of thinking.
We need to beat this one back big time.
It didn’t take long before the new house showed us just what ranks high on their priority list did it? Jobs and economy my butt!
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By: lori on February 4, 2011
at 6:10 AM
This weblog is being featured in Five Star Friday – http://www.schmutzie.com/fivestarfriday/2011/2/3/five-star-fridays-136th-edition-is-brought-to-you-by-rudyard.html
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By: schmutzie on February 4, 2011
at 12:11 AM
I reserve my blog to vent some of my frustrations with this “discussion” and I try to be more polite over here. I realize I post here at the discretion of the blog owner and therefore I try to keep some minimum of decorum. But yes, full disclosure … some of what I’ve read here has royally pissed me off. I just choose not to crap in other people’s houses.
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By: Rutherford on February 4, 2011
at 12:08 AM
LOL … yes Lori I did. I actually do think “Fat Grannies” has a ring to it but it’s not how I typically refer to the blog. I typically call it M&H. And as you well know, having read the comments over at my blog, the nickname originates with Tex, not with me.
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By: Rutherford on February 4, 2011
at 12:03 AM
Noah, I can’t wait for you to have a girl, then talk to us in 16 years. Given the way things are, she will more than likely have pre-marital sex, and have a child as a teenager. She will more than likely not know about safe sex and will think that anal sex will keep her virginity intact and not get her pregnant. So imagine her, scared, depressed and sad that she upset she will be when she turns her back on you and has an abortion, which will more than likely be at a backdoor place. She no longer has Planned Parenthood to rely on where she could get tested or have a safe abortion.
This is the culture that we live in now. You are just making it harder for all the women out there.
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By: dxg on February 3, 2011
at 11:55 PM
As of Thursday, Feb. 3 — Apparently the GOP is backing down on the whole “forcible” rape thing, according to some news from Politico.com:
***
http://www.politico.com/huddle/0211/huddle714.html
BREAKING: ‘FORCIBLE RAPE’ PROVISION TO CHANGE — House Republicans plan to sidestep a potentially contentious fight over the definition of rape by altering the language of a bill banning taxpayer subsidies for abortion, GOP aides tell Huddle. As written, the bill provides an exemption from the abortion ban “if the pregnancy occurred because the pregnant female was the subject of an act of forcible rape,” as well as in the case of incest involving a minor or the endangerment of the mother. The inclusion of the modifier “forcible” set off a firestorm among women’s rights groups. “The phrase forcible rape was abandoned some time ago, and there is some indication that what they would be trying to do is make women jump over an additional hurdle if they want to get an abortion,” Rep. Diana DeGette (D-Colo.) told POLITICO this week. Some worry that the term would exclude some forms of rape, including statutory rape that isn’t accompanied by violence. “The word forcible will be replaced with the original language from the Hyde Amendment,” Jeff Sagnip, spokesman for bill sponsor Chris Smith (R-N.J.), said. One senior GOP aide told Huddle it’s a no-brainer to get rid of the modifier. “Such a removal would be a good idea, since last I checked, rape by definition is non-consensual,” the aide said. Also, it’s easy to see why Republican leaders might want to avoid a floor debate over the definition of rape. The Daily Show with Jon Stewart spent several minutes of air time mocking the distinction between “rape” and “forcible rape” Wednesday night.
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By: elsie09 on February 3, 2011
at 11:26 PM
Mageen- the proposed law affects much much more…
Best wishes for your husband.
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By: alaskapi on February 3, 2011
at 10:11 PM
Mageen you have my thoughts as well for your husband…
Thanks to all on the board for the words of encouragement….
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By: Craig on February 3, 2011
at 10:11 PM
Mageen, I hope the first day of chemo wasn’t too unpleasant. Hoping for the best for your husband.
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By: No one's puppet on February 3, 2011
at 9:56 PM
Some good posts! Hadn’t had a chance to monitor the flow. This was husband’s first chemo day. Consequently my mind and actions were elsewhere. Had a small glimmer of a chance this evening to find out something about the revised defintion of rape the Repugs are coming up with in committee. According to them, the old definition of rape as always a forcible violent act is out the window. Under their rules a woman would have to be about beaten to death by the rapist in order to prove “forcible” rape. Remember when all rape was always forcible? Now there is a tier level for the different kinds. This is all aimed at making it harder for anyone to get federal taxpayer help for an abortion. Would someone look up how many such abortions were done in maybe 2010? And how much they cost when divided by the number of taxpayers in this country? The only thing this new legislation the Repugs are working will do is to protect the rapist. Seriously, does anyone really want that?
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By: Mageen in Old Virginnny on February 3, 2011
at 9:41 PM
[…] reprinting this from Margaret and Helen. There is a followup posting there that you should read as well. – iron knee] I told you, Margaret. It’s only just […]
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By: Political Irony › Rick Perry is a jackass. Period. on February 3, 2011
at 9:15 PM
Craig,
Our prayers, best wishes and good luck thoughts are all aimed at Val. May her surgery and treatment be successful. I am acquainted with a woman in Val’s position who started her chemo last month and, yes, we’ve got our hopes up. I also know another who was declared cancer free ten years ago and is kicking up a storm ever since she got her life back. Triple-negative isn’t easy, but it can be cured.
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By: Shash on February 3, 2011
at 8:19 PM
Mageen I have thought about you often too. Glad to hear your husband is weathering the storm.
Craig, hoping for a successful outcome for your wife.
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By: Easier on February 3, 2011
at 7:17 PM
Lori,
Just received e-mail confirmation about surgery.
Dr.. Knox that you mentioned is Sally Knox M.D. and an
associate in Val’s Dr. LaMont’s practice..so “Karma” is working.
Thanks for ‘befriending” me.
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By: Craig on February 3, 2011
at 6:49 PM
Thanks Lori..
Pittsburg is one of the sites that my wife’s tissue is being sent to. Don’t know if that’s the particular site or not. Interesting..small world.
Day surgery finally scheduled for next Wednesday. Road trip Tuesday.
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By: Craig on February 3, 2011
at 5:12 PM
Craig, LOL BFF = best friend forever in text world. Sorry I’ve been cooped up with teenagers too long. I am beginning to get cabin teeanage fever. LOL LOL
My girl friend’s mother is the woman who had surgery on Monday @ Baylor. Shaughnessey is her breast doctor. She has an excellent reputation in that area. I am sure Val is in great hands.
My sister in law, who has many of the same isssues as Val, doctors @ Magee Woman’s hospital in Pittsburgh. She is also in some sort of “trial” program. I can’t come up with her DR’s name right now, but if you would like I’ll ask her next time I speak with her?
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By: lori on February 3, 2011
at 2:41 PM
Just guessing Craig, bff= best friend forever. So Lori would have been referring to her best friend’s mother.
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By: No one's puppet on February 3, 2011
at 2:38 PM
Thank you Helen. I, like Margaret, want everyone to get along but the surist way to get my blood boiling is to put a man in charge of my body. I am not saying that men should be completely left out of the decision making process (in certain instances) but its MY body dammit. As Gloria Steinem (I think) said, ‘If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.’ Well, they can’t, so shut your piehole!
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By: serenespencer on February 3, 2011
at 2:35 PM
Lori,
Was this your mother in law..sister in law?? at Baylor?
Not wanting to be nosey..It’s just that we were pointed to O’Shaughnessey by our Lubbock doctors because of her research. You can google her “Joyce O’Shaughnessey”
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By: Craig on February 3, 2011
at 1:45 PM
Mikat ,
Thanks for your thoughts.
CR
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By: Craig on February 3, 2011
at 1:42 PM
Lori,
For my education…”bff’s Mom”
can you elaborate bff..?
Dr. Joyce O’Shaughnesey is a Breast Guru at Baylor Medical in Dallas
at the Sammons Cancer Center. She is great and a lil fire brand.
She gave us an undivided hour and half two weeks ago and then a 20 min phone call last night. Just contacted by her nurse 10 min ago to alert us to the surgeons office of Dr. Jeff La Mont to call and schedule day surgery for next week.
Look like you have your hands full with a “rutherford ” complex..and I thought I was trouble. 🙂
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By: Craig on February 3, 2011
at 1:41 PM
And Rutherford that was one of the nicer things you have said about H&M’s site and it’s posters. Maybe for full disclosure you should come clean with the rest of your insults?
Please don’t insult our intelligence by claiming to be one of the “gang”…
No Sir, I DO know exactly what/who you are and an ass-hat doesn’t come close.
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By: lori on February 3, 2011
at 12:55 PM
You didn’t say this Rutherford?
Rutherford | January 27, 2011 at 12:05 pm
…….I have to admit “Fat Grannies” is starting to win me over. It has a lot more flair than “Margaret and Helen”. In fact, I don’t know why they don’t adopt it.
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By: lori on February 3, 2011
at 12:47 PM
Alaska, I agree with you. My concern about whether or not to interfere with growing life has nothing to do with its potential perfection. On the contrary, as a disabled person, I have a particular sensitivity to the potential abuse of abortion to “get rid of” babies who don’t fit the preconceived notions of normality.
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By: Rutherford on February 3, 2011
at 12:16 PM
I could not agree more!
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By: Rutherford on February 3, 2011
at 12:12 PM
LOL Alive and Well, while you might not like to hear it, most of what you wrote in your last comment shows me how much we have in common politically.
Honestly, my personal feelings about abortion have been evolving as I get older. Maybe I am getting more sentimental but while I continue to support choice and non-government interference, the older I get the less black and white abortion becomes for me. It is a moral muddle for me right now. I just don’t think my moral unease about it should be reflected in legislation. That’s all.
Enjoy Spain, the bread there is fantastic!
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By: Rutherford on February 3, 2011
at 12:11 PM
Lori, your use of the term “Fat Granny’s” tells me you think I am another alias of my polar political opposite (and blogging buddy) Tex. Enjoy your paranoia while you can. I assure you, I’m not Tex. Tex is pro-life. I am pro-choice. I am also anti-bullsh*t, which is a lot of what I’m reading here. And from the tone of your reaction to my attempt to apologize to Claire, you my dear are an ass-hat.
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By: Rutherford on February 3, 2011
at 11:49 AM
If we, as a society, truly want to stop abortions, we must stop the causes – we must stop Rape, we must stop teenage stupidity, we must stop the man who threatens to beat his wife if she becomes pregnant, we must stop a church from making the cumulative daily sin of birth control more consequential than the single sin of abortion, we must stop incest, and child molestation and poverty and subjugation of women..
And most of all, we must educate our girls, our daughters, our nieces, our friends. It is your body, and nobody – not your husband, not your boyfriend, not the neighbor, not the priest, not the government has a right to it. And we must educate our boys about responsibility, and sexual pressure, and consent and birth control.
To truly stop abortion we don’t need to make it illegal, we need to make it unnecessary.
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By: Eddie Louise on February 3, 2011
at 11:46 AM
Like it or not, Rutherford, the rhythm method and abortion ARE both forms of birth control. The first is used by hundreds of millions of Catholics worldwide with varying degrees of success. The second is extremely effective but is subject to the constraints of time while also being the method of last resort. Obviously an ounce of prevention is preferable to pound of cure.
In no way am I de-legitimizing fertilized eggs. They are what they are and if we don’t recognize what they are, we’re all in a whole hell of a lot of trouble! One thing they are not is sacred tiny people.
And finally, I don’t feel like the conversation between you and I has fallen anywhere near the level of sniping. I’d call this spirited debate. 🙂 We liberals don’t get our own way because:
1) Conservatives lie wholeheartedly to the masses and their lies are swallowed hook, line and sinker by the uneducated and the religious right wing. (It boggles my mind how the poorest among us have fought universal health care while supporting tax cuts for the wealthiest and tax increases for everyone at the bottom including themselves. In my state that’s exactly what they’ve done. Now they’re toothlessly screaming in bedraggled clothing on the lawn of the Capitol Building because their Earned Income Tax Credits are about to be yanked from under their sorry asses.)
2) The rank and file voters of the liberal block are far too often way too lazy to get off their butts and get out to vote when election day rolls around.
and
3) Leadership in the liberal camp of politicians has been largely milk toast for nearly as long as I can remember. Gone are the days of Franklin D. Roosevelt who had the guts to put some teeth into his policies and drag this nation out of the pits of hell. I daresay even President Eisenhower was easily more liberal than Obama when it comes to the issues of taxation as well as stopping the military industrial complex from bankrupting our nation’s morals and financial coffers. (Our nation’s economy has been utterly victimized and completely gutted by the mind-boggling waste, greed, corruption and consumption of an out-of-control National Military Establishment and over three decades of increasingly obscene tax cuts for those very few who hold — and have subsequently locked up — the vast majority of this nation’s wealth.)
Whew! It’s time to put away my soapbox — at least for a little while. I’m going to bake some cookies, water the plants, and pack my suitcase. A very short trip to Spain is in my immediate future, but just like Arnold, “I’ll be back!”
😀
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By: Alive and Well on February 3, 2011
at 11:34 AM
Margaret & Helen…two old lesbians on wheels…ROck on, b!tches!
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By: Slader on February 3, 2011
at 10:35 AM
The road to hell is paved with good intentions (or no intentions).
What I see is an opportunistic arrogant jerk ceasing this moment to “drop another bomb @ fat granny’s” merely to create some buzz for his own interests.
That is just my opinion mind you.. I have no intentions of hurting anyone’s feelings or insulting them!
Ignore the jerk is my advice. Let him slink off to his den of pseudo intellectual snipping and continue his dialog with people of his own kind.
Gosh I sure hope I’m not shooting from the hip here!
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By: lori on February 3, 2011
at 10:28 AM
For every reasonable response I see here, I see another straight from bizarro world. Who is advocating every woman being forced to have 1 to 15 babies? I’m not calling for a world of Stepford Wives. Mikat says all forms of birth control should be legal and safe. Who said otherwise? The rhythm method is not birth control nor is abortion. As for all the other methods, again, who said women should not use birth control … and that men should not use it?
The pro-choice “movement”, in my opinion, should begin and end with the concept that government regulation of birth is an encroachment on the privacy of the woman and her sovereignty over her own body. That is where I am very comfortable. There is no reason to go from there to arguments that de-legitimize fertilized eggs, cast aspersions against “irresponsible men”, or make excuses for careless sexual behavior. There is a simple bottom line … the government should stay out of this. And we all know that but for the most callous and immature of women, the choice will be an agonizing one, regardless of the circumstances.
Finally, I’m not in the business of making anyone’s life harder or bringing grief to anyone. To Claire, if you are reading this, I responded to you from my gut. I certainly had no intention to hurt your feelings. It’s a complicated issue and we all bring our own emotional baggage to it. I attached meaning to your story that perhaps you didn’t even mean to convey and I shot from the hip, so for that I do apologize.
As Alive and Well said, I bid you peace also. Life is too short and too hard for folks who basically agree politically to be sniping at each other. (By the way, on a side note, that is why we liberals can’t get out of our own way. Conservatives march lock-step toward their goals, while we battle on all the nuances.)
Thank you.
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By: Rutherford on February 3, 2011
at 10:13 AM
Yes Mageen- have noticed that ommission…
Mine came to the conclusion as a teen that he would not consent, by default in deferring to a partner on birth control, to being a parent until he was ready to be one.
Those were tough family conversations .
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By: alaskapi on February 3, 2011
at 10:09 AM
Whatever happened to Grandma Katie? I haven’t seen a post from her in a while.
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By: Melissa on February 3, 2011
at 9:57 AM
“their sons are old enough to express some sort of adult opinion in the matter of reproductive rights and right to privacy, what have they said?”
I thought their opinions were to be excluded.
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By: El Tigre on February 3, 2011
at 9:53 AM
R-
I have cousins who adopted and raised 6 special needs children whose mothers had no qualms about carrying to term nor of giving them up when it was obvious their children were “broken”.
I’m talking FAS, addiction at birth to crack cocaine, genetic disease, learning disabilities…
All of these youngsters grew into well adjusted adults because of the hard work and warm stable loving home their adoptive parents provided.
This is not the norm.
Those kids are much more commonly shifted around in a foster care system, end up in trouble with the law, etc etc ad infinitum.
http://www.ajpm-online.net/article/PIIS0749379798000178/abstract
I’m a lot more interested in what we do with and about the kids who are born who are not wanted in any meaningful sense of the term than mooning over the loss of potentially “perfect” children.
In my state high birth rates and number of children per family is still common , especially in rural areas, for a variety of religious and socioeconomic reasons.
We also have have a youth suicide rate double the national average and after the horrifying number of losses in 2010 we may have gained a berth as the worst ever even for ourselves.
We have incredible dropout rates- 25% in my area and a host of other problems.
I say let’s get out of the conversation between a woman and her doctor and turn our energies towards making better healthier communities on the ground , not in our dreams.
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By: alaskapi on February 3, 2011
at 9:53 AM
Has anyone noticed that something is missing here, especially from the men who contribute to this blog? If they have sons, how are they raising them regarding their attitudes and behavior towards women? This is where the axle may need the grease. If their sons are old enough to express some sort of adult opinion in the matter of reproductive rights and right to privacy, what have they said? What is or will be the impact of the upcoming generations of men regarding these issues?
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on February 3, 2011
at 9:42 AM
Craig,
Best wishes for a total recovery and or remission. My prayers are with you and your wife.
Alive and Well,
BRAVO!!!! You said what I have been trying to say, have said and will keep saying till my voice dies out. We cannot sustain a continued population explotion of human beings on this tiny planet. There are not enough resources and there sure as heck won’t be enough jobs or housing for trillions more people.
Let us take care of the children that are already here, there are millions that are living in poverty, not enough food, health care and limited education options. Millions of older children languish in foster care because they are “not” adoptable any more. How can we as a people insist that women cary every pregnancy to term and then ignore the needs of the children we forced to be born!
If every woman is forced to have 1-15 children, how can she work? how can she afford care for these children so that she can support them. Lets not forget that there will be millions of single women having children. There will be children having children. Do you expect a 12 year old girl to be responsible enough to raise a child? Do you expect her parents to raise her children? this is just the tip of the iceberg!
I won’t even go into the abuse, violence and degredation that will happen to millions of these babies, it is inevitable. You can force people to have babies, but you cannot force them to love them, care for them or raise them responsibly.
All forms of birth control should be legal and safe.
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By: Mikat on February 3, 2011
at 9:37 AM
Rutherford,
Claire is not your daughter and the way you spoke to her was rude, especially considering the story she told. You owe her an apology and the more you rationalize and give retorts to comments without first apologizing to Claire tells me that you are not someone who should be giving advice to anyone.
Behind every choice there is a story that is rarely black and white and rarely easy to explain to anyone especially in this format. We either are OK with a woman right to end a pregnancy or we are not. If we are not, the “we” should not have an abortion. If we are, then we must trust her to make the right decision for her REGARDLESS of how we feel about that decision. What might be “an abortion of convenience for you” could very well be agony for another.
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By: Two Cents on February 3, 2011
at 9:16 AM
Well said A&W I like your style!!!!!
Craig, I donno, When I was speaking with my g f last evening, I asked who her Mom’s DR was and she said Shaughnessey was her breast surgeon and Knox’s was her oncologist. But she may have mispoke or I didn’t hear correctly (which is probably more likely) I thought that was the Dr. you mentioned as Val’s. Marliese had nothing but praise for her team as her Mom has been dealing with this for years now.
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By: lori on February 3, 2011
at 6:08 AM
Making adoption easier is always a good idea, Rutherford, especially for qualified single people, unmarried couples and gay and lesbian couples. The main thing we don’t want to skimp on are reasonable and thorough safeguards designed to protect innocent children from being victimized by unsuitable adoptive parents.
Opening up adoption for the sole purpose of convincing more women to carry their unwanted pregnancies full term, however, is the wrong motivation for making adoption easier. Being pro-choice doesn’t mean giving lip service to a woman’s right to choose and then reserving the right to judge whatever choice she makes. It doesn’t mean saying you support a woman’s right to choose and then doing everything in your power to convince her to continue an unwanted pregnancy to full term and subsequent birth. It means respecting a woman’s right to choose and then butting out of her business altogether. You are free to apply your own set of values to your own reproductive choices, and that’s where it ends.
It’s obvious that you love babies, Rutherford, but you continue to fiercely hold on to the notion that every fertilized egg is precious beyond compare. I can’t help but notice that the world’s population has at least doubled during my time here on this planet. The earth is literally teeming with people, and surely it won’t be long before the overload limit is finally reached. I think we should first learn to treat ourselves and our fellow planeteers as if each and every one of us is the most precious person in the world before we start obsessing about ways to ensure that every pregnancy culminates in live birth. Our priorities in this nation have been seriously skewed by a cacophony of clamoring voices whose motives and priorities are questionable at best. I say let’s focus on feeding, housing, clothing, educating and employing the masses to eliminate poverty, hunger, greed and war. Affordable and easily accessable health care, including birth control, is vital if we are to succeed. I believe private reproductive choices should be left right where they belong: in private.
I bid you peace.
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By: Alive and Well on February 3, 2011
at 2:41 AM
Mary Alice, you embarrass us all. But most of all, you embarrass yourself.
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By: Greytdog on February 3, 2011
at 12:26 AM
A gentleman on twitter described the GOP “rape redefinition” bill perfectly – it’s not Pro Life, it’s Forced Birth. The key word,in case anyone missed it, is FORCED. as opposed to CHOICE.
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By: Greytdog on February 3, 2011
at 12:23 AM
Alive and Well, I can definitely sign up for that. How bout one other thing? How bout we make it a bit easier for childless couples who desperately want a family to adopt babies who so desperately need loving parents? Perhaps if more women were convinced that their babies would find loving homes and not stagnate in state “systems”, they might be more willing to go to term?
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By: Rutherford on February 2, 2011
at 11:11 PM
Thanks Jean for your thoughts..
Lori,
First I didn’t know that she..O’Shaughnessey was involved or did surgery…
Dr. O’Shaughnesey called us at home 8:30 this evening.
Val has Triple cell breast cancer.
She said her nurse coordinator will call tomorrow to schedule
the surgery to “harvest” or remove the lymph nodes from her underarm sometime early next week at Baylor.
My wife will probably qualify for the Gnome study and that will only be another stop gap and hopefully..and who knows buy my wife more time ..enough time to find a cure? As the good Doctor said, you never are cured but your
chances for a “permanent” remission are better.
Peace YaAll… 😉
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By: Craig on February 2, 2011
at 9:56 PM
Mageen… Here’s a big “thumbs up” for your good news today!
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By: elsie09 on February 2, 2011
at 7:59 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
I am always amused whenever another alpha-male-wannabe shows up here at M&H’s porch to partake of free pie and tea, and along with his compeers, insists on chiming in with vociferous proscriptions in order to put this bevy of miscreant broads back in their places where they belong. These equivocateurs invariably indulge themselves in voluminous and extended written oratory from polemics to sophistry, to out and out malicious calumniation.
I am deliberately engaging in multi-syllabic language so there can be no uncertainty on the meaning of any words or phrases I happen to use. It is my hope that could send some scurrying to the dictionary. They possibly, just possibly might learn something.
Probably not.
Since when does a grown, mature woman go running to her daddy for reproductive advice especially when, in all probability, she has known his views on the subject her entire life – all too well. He demonstrated them to her by his attitudes toward and interactions with her mother.
So what’s for dinner? Did’ja bring home enough bacon to feed the entire extended family? I can fry it up! Remember though, undercooked pork can cause trichinosis.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on February 2, 2011
at 7:58 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
Mageen, I’m so very glad your husband’s recovery is going so well! You have been through an extremely rough time, but it is obvious you have both come through it – together and stronger. Keep it up!!!
Craig, you too are weathering a tough storm in your lives but you will continue to hang in there I know. I send my very best wishes for a positive outcome.
Sincerely,
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on February 2, 2011
at 7:48 PM
Rutherford, you seized upon one thing I said and twisted it just enough to make it sound like something quite different.
It is true that I don’t equate a fertilized egg with a whole person as you seem to do. A fertilized egg carries with it only a possibility of becoming a new human being. Over 20% of all pregnancies end in spontaneous miscarriage. Most of these events occur very early within the first trimester, and very often these short term pregnancies and the subsequent miscarriages transpire completely unnoticed by the women who experience them. We know, therefore, that a fertilized egg has a better than 20% chance of becoming absolutely nothing.
The results for the remaining 80% or less are mixed. Ending up with a child who is wanted, loved, cared for, well-adjusted and ultimately successful in life is only one of many possibilities. It takes months of cell division, differentiation and growth in order for a fertilized egg to be transformed into a newborn infant with all the various possibilities it may be afforded in life.
I don’t believe for one hot minute that all of those unnoticed pregnancies which end early in unrecognized miscarriages are the tragic demises of special little beings who are perpetually mourned by angels on high. I don’t see legal medical procedures which terminate pregnancies as being any different. In utero tissue is removed before it has grown and developed into a viable infant. End of story. Let’s focus on caring for our children and giving them the legacy of a healthy planet on which to live.
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By: Alive and Well on February 2, 2011
at 7:42 PM
Mary Alice-
Pffftttt!
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By: alaskapi on February 2, 2011
at 7:25 PM
It’s such a small world Craig. When you were waiting for a call from her and she was in surgery, there is a good chance she was (or had just finished) operating on my bff’s Mom at the time. 😉
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By: lori on February 2, 2011
at 7:24 PM
Craig- very best wishes for your wife and you.
The waiting stuff is very difficult.
Mageen- YAY!
While you are all battling the cold we are having a wierd warming spell with heavy wind and rain… 47deg on Feb 2 in SE Alaska … wierd.
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By: alaskapi on February 2, 2011
at 7:23 PM
🙂 excellent
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By: lori on February 2, 2011
at 7:14 PM
Lori,
Shaugnessy
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By: Craig on February 2, 2011
at 7:12 PM
Craig, continued good thoughts your way….. did you say her Dallas Dr.’s are Shaugnessy and Knox?
Mageeeeennnnnn That is wonderful news. 😉 Soo happy for you. xo
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By: lori on February 2, 2011
at 7:08 PM
Harvesting lymph nodes sounds like the mother of all euphemisms. Do they also harvest wisdom teeth?
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By: delurkergurl on February 2, 2011
at 5:50 PM
What’s funny is Republicans want to dictate what women do with their bodies, but then once that kid is born they don’t want to have anything to do with it. They won’t pay for healthcare, education, etc. They have no problem having that child grow up, join the military and die a senseless death at the age of 18 in Iraq, though.
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By: Sandra on February 2, 2011
at 5:46 PM
Hmmm and now we know why Helen has 4 million hits and 100s of followers and others can only attrack 4 trolls and a nut case or two.
Huggggs Claire xo
Love you JSRI.
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By: lori on February 2, 2011
at 5:35 PM
I hope this does not come across as a duplicate Post.
I appreciate the kind words NOP,Delurker,Elsie and Poolman.
Working on the faith and Trust thing Poolman.
Valerie heard about an hour ago from Specialist’s nurse in Dallas that they will begin to schedule surgeon for next week ..when? Dallas is also still awaiting final biopsy results from Lubbock tissue sample. So it looks like a road trip some time next week for the “harvesting” of Lymph nodes for further biopsy’s at other labs . This just means another two-three weeks of waiting for results from those tests. Oncologists here will not do any more Chemo until they know what exactly they are fighting.
Packers and Steelers teams have their own sanding trucks and police escorts for weather travel according to TV news coming out of DFW area. Nice huh?
More later..and thanks again for “being there”.
Craig
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By: Craig on February 2, 2011
at 5:33 PM
Mary Alice, you are the one who should feel shame. What a dreadful thing to say.
You’d better watch it. Helen will come after you next!
Be kind.
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By: Brenda R. on February 2, 2011
at 5:09 PM
My response to the stupid anti-abortion agenda:
http://devilinmydreams.blogspot.com/2011/02/something-personal-this-way-comes.html
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By: Eddie Louise on February 2, 2011
at 5:07 PM
Mary Alice = Karma?
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By: delurkergurl on February 2, 2011
at 4:27 PM
Craig, as far as I know, we don’t yet control the weather. If you have placed your trust in God to handle this, I think I can attest that He better knows what He is doing than any of us. Right? Now have a peace about you. It is better for your health. My daily prayer for Val is total healing. God can do that, if He so chooses. Now that would build your faith, eh? That IS what miracles are for. In all cases they point to an amazing God.
AFA that “something called a Super Bowl” comment. Funny. I’m certain plenty feel that game is more important than real life. Maybe the Father is trying to help folks get their priorities straight. I’m sure many are cursing the weather. Something, as I have said, they have no control over.
Stay warm. Love your wife and wait on her hand and foot. It’s the least you can do.
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By: poolman on February 2, 2011
at 4:20 PM
Craig, interesting choice of word, bizarre, maybe that means something better than the doctors expected. Hope the weather breaks soon so you can get to Dallas.
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By: No one's puppet on February 2, 2011
at 4:18 PM
Troll alert. “Mary Alice”
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By: elsie09 on February 2, 2011
at 4:04 PM
Craig, isn’t the Dallas weather expected to improve greatly going into the weekend? Fewer freezing temps…warmer days, warmer nights…
Hang in there. Just keep moving forward day-by-day, gathering information, making contacts, following up on recommendations from trusted medical sources.
Maybe it’s really better that Val’s not anywhere around the Super Bowl insanity in the Dallas Metroplex this weekend. I wonder if her flight arrangements could be set for the first part of next week? Preferably, after most of the Super Bowl partiers clear out of Dallas? Would that be soon enough?
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By: elsie09 on February 2, 2011
at 4:04 PM
Craig, karma is a bitch. Just because you have been such an ass on this site, now you have to pay by dealing with cancer. Are you proud now? Shame on you.
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By: Mary Alice on February 2, 2011
at 3:55 PM
delurkergurl ,
Did I ever tell you I like your Avatar.
Yep CANCER sucks… pretty much says it all.
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By: Craig on February 2, 2011
at 3:45 PM
Cancer sucks. 😦 Sorry it’s such a frustrating process, Craig. All that matters is a good outcome, right? I hope the weather cooperates soon.
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By: delurkergurl on February 2, 2011
at 3:41 PM
Hey all…
Visited with Oncologist Monday am.
He tried to call Dallas Baylor Doc yesterday but she was in surgery.
Today rolling black outs in Dallas effecting Dallas electricity and phones and similar temps in Lubbock..low of 2 and high currently 13 with 2-3 inches of ice and snow..same in Dallas.
Now our Oncologist called Val an hour ago and said he thinks her cancer is “bizarre” to use his words. They don’t know what she has, and Oncologist wants her to get to Dallas as soon as the Doc’s there have an opening for a biopsy. No air service going or coming and there is something called a Super Bowl there this weekend.
We’re suppose to hear this afternoon from Dallas..but blackouts there due to ice and cold have halted phone service ..etc.
Not a warm and fuzzy feeling. Val’s nodes have not decreased in size in past two weeks but have not grown either. Doc’s here do not want to do any more Chemo until they know exactly what they are up against. That could mean another two weeks of waiting for biopsy’s to be cultured and results returned….
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By: Craig on February 2, 2011
at 3:35 PM
VERY well said. Bravo!
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By: Rutherford on February 2, 2011
at 2:38 PM
I think we might all agree on one thing; pro life and pro choice are sound bites and they inadequately describe the entire spectrum of emotions this subject invokes in all of us.
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By: No one's puppet on February 2, 2011
at 2:20 PM
That was really amazing! I love your work!
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By: rastafarimovement@gmail.com on February 2, 2011
at 2:18 PM
JSRI, one reason it is an endless time sink is the refusal to listen.
My discouragement of my daughter would depend on the circumstances and who knows, she might tell me right off the bat to mind my own business. 🙂 If she ASKED what I thought, depending on the circumstances, I would tell her that I would prefer she go full term and place the child for adoption. If I told her otherwise, I’d be lying. Would I want her arrested for deciding to abort? No. Would I want her doctor arrested? No. In most cases I prefer adoption over abortion but I don’t think it should be a matter of criminality.
Exactly. That is not the least bit inconsistent. So why would you deny me the same personal opinion? Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. Pro-choice simply means the woman with her doctor, pastor and loved ones, decides which course to take without the government intervening. To say that someone’s personal preference to make abortion the very last resort suddenly makes them against choice is ridiculous.
So how can you say that I can’t be pro-choice simply because if I were a woman I would not have an abortion AND as a caring man, I would honestly counsel the women whom I love in my life (if asked) not to have one?
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By: Rutherford on February 2, 2011
at 2:05 PM
Rutherford on February 2, 2011 at 9:35 AM
I find this topic and endless time sink and your comment “I also don’t believe that Claire’s decision was made without struggle, although some of the way she verbalized it I found objectionable.” is itself objectionable. Who the hell died and left you as the arbiter of pregnancy terminology? I can give you an even older term, “in a family way.” Is that also objectionable?
This might be difficult for you to understand but in some families, pregnancies are not easy subjects for discussion and members often resort to using mild euphemisms to describe them. If you are uncomfortable with the concept I’d be willing to bet that it has a lot to do with the circumstances on the schoolhouse playground when some bully first told you about the mechanics of your conception and you haven’t come to terms with your relationship to your parents about it yet. Sex leads to babies. It s as simple as that.
When you say you are pro-choice I see nothing in your writing that establishes that. If you are as you claim to be, why would you try to discourage your daughter from an abortion? That is inconsistent with your alleged stance on the issue.
I suspect that most people on this blog are basically pro choice yet would opt not to have an abortion but also recognize that there can be extenuating circumstances for others who would follow through and terminate a pregnancy.
I also find it rather incredible that any male would castigate a woman for having an abortion since the male is usually in the power position to avoid it. But our culture, being what it is today, still holds females in the subservient role especially when it comes to sex. The reflection that goes into an abortion decision is so far removed from any male experience possible that males deserve no say in the matter.
I’d suggest that you go back and read the comments posted on this site. There is more than enough real life experience to make the argument in favor of leaving the laws alone.
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By: jsri on February 2, 2011
at 1:43 PM
I have explicitly stated that personal preference in this case should not be governed by our legal system. Did Roe v. Wade and subsequent rulings protecting a woman’s right to make these decisions with her advisors stop people from making personal “judgments”? We all make personal judgments. Pro-choice legislation protects women’s right to control their medical outcomes, as it should. But it does not dictate that each of us abandon critical judgment in our own personal lives.
Alive and Well, it boggles my mind how you cannot understand how equating a fertilized egg with a pre-cancerous tissue might be considered distasteful by a lot of folks, even those who would passionately defend a woman’s right to make a very private decision.
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By: Rutherford on February 2, 2011
at 1:35 PM
A “bit of tissue” is exactly what it is, Rutherford. It’s not a person. A person is born into this world after they have grown and developed into an infant which can survive outside the womb. Everything starts out as a bit of tissue: sperm cells, ova, fetuses with unsurvivable abnormalities, cancer. Perhaps it would seem wrong to you to remove a precancerous growth. It is, after all, human tissue, and it’s not actually a full-fledged threat just yet. It might never even turn out to be a threat. Some healthy cells would inadvertently be destroyed as well during such an excision, and your logic seems to dictate that non-sentient human flesh is something precious to be spared if at all possible. Should we ban tubal ligations and vasectomies as well? Should every non-used ovum and sperm cell be harvested and flash-frozen for future use?
The problem with passing judgement on the reasoning behind another woman’s decision to proceed with an abortion is exactly this: it’s nobody’s business but the woman’s and her doctor’s. Your own situational ethics won’t necessarily apply to someone else’s situation. When we start passing judgement on another woman’s reproductive decisions, we are opening the door to the passage of sweeping laws which will unreasonably restrict those important personal decisions which are unique in each and every case.
Our humanity gives meaning to our existence, but our flesh is simply tissue.
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By: Alive and Well on February 2, 2011
at 12:59 PM
That is SUCH good news, Mageen! Been thinking of you often and am so glad to hear a good report.
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By: delurkergurl on February 2, 2011
at 12:40 PM
Kelly, thanks for the heads up! Sent my personalized letter. Cannot believe that these old white men are actually doing this! Gads! The fantasy life they must have! If it does ever get out into the world, it will undoubtedly end up in court. Again, thanks for the alert. Been very, very involved in husband’s post-op chemo. A note here to all the folks on the front porch at Margaret and Helen’s place who were so supportive before the surgery. Husband did better than anyone expected and went back to work just about immediately. His inspiration? He couldn’t stand daytime television. Now he is coping with an extraordinary amount of pills to take during the chemo months, plus those five hour sit a spell drip sessions. Bless you all for taking the time to be so neighborly!
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on February 2, 2011
at 12:27 PM
Poodle Breeder? What’s wrong, they can’t do it themselves??
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By: Mike on February 2, 2011
at 11:14 AM
Way to go, Helen and Margaret! You are great!
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By: Poodle Breeder on February 2, 2011
at 11:12 AM
HAPPY 4 MILLION HITS!
WoW!!!!
🙂
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By: Kimacko on February 2, 2011
at 11:11 AM
No, Rutherford, no one has the right to tell you not to be disappointed/judgmental- no one does but you yourself. You know, it’s not a bad idea to take oneself out of the center of all that occurs to one…greater possibilities for understanding and acceptance lie that way. Peace.
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By: Roz on February 2, 2011
at 10:02 AM
I think Margaret is frozen under a mound of snow in Maine. Haven’t heard from HER in ages!
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By: Rachelle on February 2, 2011
at 9:58 AM
Keep warm today, Helen!
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By: Snobound on February 2, 2011
at 9:52 AM
Rutherford, I think YOU think you talk a good talk, but in actuality, you’re ALL just talk. You really are NOT pro-choice. Just a newsflash for ya, Dude.
And that’s about all I care to say on this subject. I only hope that Claire realizes that your concept about her conception is strictly the opinion of one arrogant guy.
Claire, here’s some hot raspberry tea… Please sit a spell, here in Helen’s “parlor”. You have friends here.
Really, Hon….
I mean it…
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By: elsie09 on February 2, 2011
at 9:48 AM
feel sorry for your daughter…
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By: Tina F. on February 2, 2011
at 9:48 AM
First, thank you to Kelly and Elsie who gave thought out reasonable responses to my comment. Tobi, I do hope you do NOT get banned as you have every right to call me a dick if that pleases you.
If I am guilty of anything it is that I made a personal response to Claire as opposed to a legal/political response. I don’t think the government has any business dictating to women how they handle their pregnancies. I also don’t believe that Claire’s decision was made without struggle, although some of the way she verbalized it I found objectionable.
I find a tendency among some pro-choice people to use language that minimizes the gravity of the abortion decision. “She removed an unintended bit of tissue” is the way Alive and Well puts it. Every precious person on this planet, everyone you all hold dear to you was once a “bit of tissue”, intended or otherwise. Maybe using this kind of casual jargon is a way of compensating for the perception that men are casual about sex? I don’t know. But I’m sorry, “bit of tissue” does not describe what is going on.
As for KeihiKat’s comment, “an immediate vasectomy for any man who impregnates more than one woman and skips out on them. I would have said castration, but I’m a gentle soul. =)” I agree 100%. Men who walk away from a pregnancy are disgusting.
While Claire is old enough to be my mother, I spoke to her honestly the way I would counsel my own daughter. I would strongly discourage my daughter from getting an abortion while fully acknowledging her right to do so. If she went ahead with it, she would get all the emotional support from me that she needed but I would be disappointed. And none of you have a right to tell me that I should not be.
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By: Rutherford on February 2, 2011
at 9:35 AM
Thank God for Planned Parenthood. No matter what these pro- lifers (aka Old White Men) do, planned parenthood will be there for women and men needing appropriate medical help.
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By: Deb on February 2, 2011
at 8:23 AM
That book – Behind Every Choice There is a Story – is a wonderful book Claire. Also a book called Sacred Choices is a blessing. As a fellow human being, let me apologize for Rutherford’s rudeness and lack of humanity. I am embarrassed for him even without knowing him. Bless and love to you Claire. You indeed made a sacred choice and your story is one of love.
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By: Cindy on February 2, 2011
at 8:17 AM
Rutherford you are a dick. And I am fine if saying that gets me banned.
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By: Tobi on February 2, 2011
at 8:12 AM
Hey,
Can you believe that a congressional committee is holding a hearing to advance an anti-choice bill? The bill is the infamous “Stupak on Steroids” proposal, and it could redefine rape and jeopardize abortion coverage in the private insurance market.
This bill is a clear assault on a woman’s right to choose – and if we don’t speak out now, anti-choicers will think their attacks will go unanswered in the new Congress.
Anti-choice groups are lobbying Congress and some member of Congress even marched with our opponents in Washington, D.C., so you need to contact your representative right away! You can find more information – and take action – here:
http://bit.ly/g1lDxK
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By: Kelly on February 2, 2011
at 8:02 AM
Dear Noah, until and if the the time comes that you find yourself in possession of a uterus, kindly STFU. You can’t possibly know what you’re talking because you can’t walk two steps in those shoes, much less a mile. As far as that disgusting, hypocritical piece of excrement known as Rick Perry, stick that sonogram up your ass Rick and see if you can crawl far enough past your ego to find a still living brain cell. You’ll get a say over MY body the same day I get a say over yours. Too bad it’s much to late to save the gene pool by neutering you. You participated in the murder of Cameron Willingham so don’t pretend like you believe life is sacred when all you really want is to reduce womens control over their own bodies.
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By: Sandi on February 2, 2011
at 7:10 AM
Margaret and Helen! A toast – to your health!
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By: Salut! on February 2, 2011
at 7:03 AM
Congratulations Margaret and Helen! Love to hear more of what you have to say!
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By: Libby on February 2, 2011
at 6:53 AM
Wonderful! I can’t express adequately how much I enjoy reading your blog. My mother used to say, “Don’t try to match wits with an unarmed opponent” but I really appreciate when you put ignorance in its place. Your intelligence and wit are so refreshing. Thank you!
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By: Julia Walters on February 2, 2011
at 6:30 AM
Wonderful post Helen!
Just wanted to share the most horrific story of “religious” interference in the birth process I’ve personally witnessed or heard of. This took place around 20 yrs ago.
My friend, a devout Catholic, was finally pregnant. She & her husband were thrilled beyond measure – they had been trying for a long time with no success. Then sometime during her 7th month, the baby quit moving. They went to her “fanatically” Catholic Dr. immediately. After running many tests, they determined that her baby had died in the womb. Instead of removing it, the Dr. insisted she must carry it until the 9th month came & when she would have delivered. They both protested, but the Dr. brought in her priest and together they convinced her that to remove the dead child would be no different than an abortion and she would burn in Hell for that decision. They said that it was God’s will that she carry it and it was his decision to remove it or not. She allowed them to bully her into carrying it into the 10th month.
It almost destroyed her, it did destroy their family. Needless to say, “God” did not decide to remove it. Her health fell apart, she was an emotional wreck & became incapable of dealing with anything. Her husband ended up leaving her. They removed the baby in the 10th month but the damage had forever been done.
This is a little bit off topic, but just demonstrates how radical religious beliefs and their interference in people’s lives are so destructive. Just another example of “religious” men controlling a helpless woman. But let me bless all the many good men. Thank heavens for you who understand & respect a woman’s right to choose.
I have one more thing to add to list for men.
– an immediate vasectomy for any man who impregnates more than one woman and skips out on them. I would have said castration, but I’m a gentle soul. =)
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By: KiheiKat on February 2, 2011
at 4:33 AM
Claire did what was best for Claire, and an unwanted child was not forced into existence. She made the right choice, fortunate to have had the privacy and freedom to choose. She removed an unintended bit of tissue which had begun to grow inside of her body rather than allow it to develop into a sentient, full-fledged human being. She made the responsible choice based upon her own personal situation.
Every woman should have that choice. It’s unfortunate that so many people in the world rely on fairy tales, mawkishness and mythology to guide their lives instead of looking to science, wisdom and sound judgment. It’s even more unfortunate that these same people tend to be the most unreasonable among us, insisting that the rest of us live under their misguided ideologies and adhere to their own irrational rules and regulations. People like this love to talk of freedom, but the freedom they want is for themselves and no one else.
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By: Alive and Well on February 2, 2011
at 1:32 AM
elsie: you have obviously given your reply to rutherford some thought. But I wonder is going into detail and trying to get this guy to understand anything really worth the effort? Does he deserve any explanation (and personal stuff) at all.
No one gets pregnant by themselves, although it seems easier to have the attitude that the woman was alone in the act of conception and she should not be allowed to make a decision about it. So people like rutherford will blame claire because it is “her” fault for becoming pregnant and making her OWN desision about her own body.
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By: cryptoclearance on February 2, 2011
at 1:11 AM
Hey, Rutherford.
“Why do you think Claire had anxiety about her daughter’s potential reaction to the abortion? Could it be that the daughter might have wondered “damn … I sure am lucky I was born when I was or that might have been me aborted.” It’s a natural thought, don’t you think?”
Damn. I was trying to hit the sack tonight, but looked back to see how Claire is doing with your various pronouncements about her misbegotten choices so long ago, and found these comments. A couple of thoughts, then I am outahere for tonight…
I am adopted. When I was 28 years old, I sought out, found, and met my biological mother, father, siblings, aunts, uncles and grandmother.
I learned that in the year of my birth, my mother found herself pregnant and abandoned by her sea-going, merchant marine husband.
Now, I don’t know, Rutherford, if she tried to get pregnant, or, tried NOT to get pregnant….we never discussed it. I appeared to be an unplanned birth, since she didn’t think she could raise me alone after my father left her. This could be an important detail to you, Rutherford, but as she’s been dead 30 years now, I can’t go back and interrogate her on this for clarification and for your edification. I hate dealing with these pesky questions, so I’ll just continue with what IS known to me.
She proceeded with her pregnancy but placed me up for adoption at birth. Later, my biological parents set aside their differences, had more children together that they raised themselves, and lived as a married couple until death took one of them.
I have NEVER had a problem with the concept that I could have been but was not aborted. If I had been aborted, I’d never know it, would I? I decided YEARS AGO that worrying about what might have been is a useless exercise.
Claire’s adult daughter didn’t have to worry about being aborted because she was NOT aborted. She’s living proof of that. And, if she’d BEEN aborted, it wouldn’t matter a bit, I believe, since she’d never have known the life she’d missed.
So your “natural thought” is something I already resolved in my own mind over the years. There is “what is”, “what was”, “what might have been”, and “what will never be”. I adapted to my personal truths decades ago and never looked back.
What I do have a problem with is your hard-nosed attitude that Claire just did everything wrong because it didn’t meet YOUR standards about birth control, YOUR sense of responsibility, YOUR belief against abortion on demand, etc.
What you claim is YOUR “misplaced feminist notion of abortion-on-demand” is not my belief. So you must be wrong then because only one of us is entitled to the singularly “correct” opinion about this, right? RIGHT?
You probably cannot see just a bit of arrogance on your part that YOU wouldn’t “necessarily have to sign up for the “why” she did what she did.” Fortunately, when it was time for the wrenching decision to be made, she somehow managed to reach it even without YOUR input.
Just as you have opinions I have these:
Until YOU walked in the young Claire’s footsteps all those years ago, faced HER trials, understood where SHE was coming from, and knew her situation, then it REALLY doesn’t matter about your 2011 opinions and sensibilities, which were, and are, not grounded in HER reality.
Overall, you seem to have the potential for being a reasonable person. Consider this: Rather than holding someone else to your present-day standards, a little humility might be a kindness. Surely, she has suffered enough.
It’s just an idea. Of course, it didn’t come from YOU, so your mileage may vary.
BTW, I am not only an adoptee but also adopted MY child, too. Like me, she COULD have been aborted, but she wasn’t. Same situation as far as I am concerned…Worrying about “what might have been” is a colossal waste of time.
Moving on…
Claire, enjoy some coffee and have a bite of pie. We look forward to hearing from you soon.
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By: elsie09 on February 2, 2011
at 12:37 AM
to finish the last comment – If you think women act like they can just abort if they get pregnant not a problem, you need to think again. NO ONE gets an abortion just because it is the easiest form of birth control. This is one more myth we need to debunk.
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By: Kelly Glover on February 2, 2011
at 12:30 AM
Rutherford, what you call “on demand” is what I call “choice” as in “Pro Choice” for every time we stand up and claim, no one has the right to demand women prove they are incest or rape victims before they have a legal medical procedure to terminate a pregnancy. In other cases you may not agree with their choice, I may not agree with their choice, but it is not our body, our life, and neither of us is going to raise the child, therefore the choice is not ours.
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By: No one's puppet on February 2, 2011
at 12:29 AM
Rutherford – the 1960s and 1970s were the sexual revolution not the end of it. Birth control was still hard to come by in most states. There were laws that said only a man could purchase condoms and he had to prove he was married to get them. The pill was still in its infancy. We did not have sponges, spermicides were almost unheard of. So there were a lot of surprise pregnancies. (I know I am one of them – my father did not have a paper to prove he was married in 1964 so he could not buy condoms, my mother thought it was a safe time using the rhythm method, the Navy docs said she was too old to be pregnant and the skipped periods were menopause. She was 43.)
We have come a long way. BUT, because we refuse to allow schools to teach a thorough and comprehensive course in sex education, because we act as though sex is a dirty secret, because we REFUSE TO FREAKING TALK ABOUT SEX too many young men and women believe the myths about how to not get pregnant and pregnancies happen. At that point it is not the right of someone else to tell the people involved what they have to do. They have to look in their hearts and souls and make tough decisions. The decisions that they make are not the business of you, me or any government entity.
It all comes back to if you do not believe in abortions than do not get one if you get pregnant. But, you may not dictate to others how they are to believe.
If you think that women act like
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By: Kelly Glover on February 2, 2011
at 12:26 AM
Rutherford. cold man. cold. do you have a heart… or a brain? There a many, many women who who found themselves with too many children using that method because they were taught as children it was to only acceptable method in god’s eyes.
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By: tony on February 2, 2011
at 12:20 AM
Rutherford. You are pathetic. I don’t care which side of the reb/blue divide you are on. What you did was rude, insinsitive and asshole-ish. If I could climb through this computer screen and slap you, I would. And don’t bother with some excuse of a response to me. I am not interested in your justification of such poor manners and lack of humanity.
Claire. Read a book called “Behind Every Choice There is a Story”. You will find stories of other women in the same situation as you and how they dealt with it. Unlike Rutherford, I completely understand the concept of “found myself pregnant” and honey you have nothing to be ashamed of. As someone else on this board said, choosing not to have the child is a noble as choosing to have it. Post contraception or not. There is no shame in realizing that you are not ready or capable of bringing a life into this world.
Ruterford. You are an ASS. Damn it. We should got rid of Noah and now we have you. Matthew?
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By: Geena on February 1, 2011
at 11:39 PM
Cryptoclearance, if you’re suggesting I let Claire’s significant other off the hook, that was definitely not my intention. Claire didn’t go into her “status”, i.e. married, single mother, etc. so I did not address that side of it. It would be an interesting added detail (although none of our business) what her partner felt about her decision at the time. For the record, I have to question the seriousness of any man who agrees to (or suggests) the rhythm method of contraception. And if Catholicism influenced HIS behavior, well shame on Catholicism.
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By: Rutherford on February 1, 2011
at 11:06 PM
Elsie, you point out the number one reason why I am pro-choice. The same folks who care so much about the birth of the baby seem to lose interest as soon as the baby passes through the vagina. If the GOP supported sex education, contraception and funding of programs that help mothers with infants then they would have some credibility in their opposition to abortion. They don’t.
With that said, everyone has the right to “draw their own line” and I DO have a problem with abortion used as after-the-fact contraception.
JSRI, I don’t think I scolded nor castigated Claire. I told her my honest reaction to the way she expressed what she did. The verbiage she used to describe her decision did not portray a sense of responsibility for her predicament. Pregnancy happened to her? No. She did not use contraception of any kind and that sometimes results in pregnancy. It is a consequence of an action.
40 years ago is not the 1930’s. The late 1960’s and 1970’s are post-sexual revolution. A variety of forms of birth control were available at the time. And I find it odd that one would use one’s Catholic faith to justify not using birth control but then ignore the Catholic faith’s prohibition against abortion.
The most troubling aspect of this thread is that some of you wish to alienate folks who ultimately are on your side simply because they don’t subscribe to the radical (and misplaced feminist) notion of abortion-on-demand. Ultimately, Claire exercised a right over her own medical outcome that I personally would not deny her. But that does not mean that because I defend her legal right to do what she did, that I necessarily have to sign up for the “why” she did what she did.
I’ll close with a question. Why do you think Claire had anxiety about her daughter’s potential reaction to the abortion? Could it be that the daughter might have wondered “damn … I sure am lucky I was born when I was or that might have been me aborted.” It’s a natural thought, don’t you think? I wish Claire no ill will. Even if you all find my opinion castigating and scolding, I hope that Claire recognizes it as an honest reaction to the way she portrayed her situation.
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By: Rutherford on February 1, 2011
at 10:59 PM
Congratulations, Margaret & Helen! Can’t wait for the next million-hit milestone!
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By: delurkergurl on February 1, 2011
at 10:59 PM
delurker wrote:
“People have been gradually leaving here in frustration for a long time.”
Things change on the Internet. People come and go all the time. That’s a Good thing.
“People are free to be jerks, and that seems to be the bigger risk than a little common sense moderation of their own porch.”
There is no porch. It’s just electrons.
At nearly 4,000,000 hits, this blog doesn’t seem to be in danger”
Precisely. And precisely because, IMHO, that it is for the most part NOT ‘common sense’ moderated, whatever that is.
“and talking about something else could be a refreshing, positive difference.”
I couldn’t agree more. Now with that invitation, see below:
Nothing ever changes in Washington – tawdry back-room deals, dishonesty, creative financing and accounting. But if you really want to see what they think about something, just look at what they do – not what they say. To wit: the giant “healthcare” takeover bill that they want to force on everybody – that is, everybody but themselves and their friends.
Last year we were told that the Obama administration had granted 111 waivers to protect a very few from the onerous provisions of the Health Care bill. That number quietly climbed to over 200, then last week it was revealed that the Obamacare escapees had ballooned to 733. More than 500 of these waivers were granted in one month alone – December, but conveniently held under wraps and not announced until after the State of the Union Address.
So who are these deserving 733, for whom the price of paying for Obamacare would be just too high? I’m glad you asked. Well, four are actually states. (Remember the Cornhusker Kickback and the Louisiana Purchase, when Obamacare was being voted on?) One of particular interest is the giant Service Employees International Union (SEIU), headed by one Andy Stern. Of course, the fact that he donated $27 million to Obama’s 2008 campaign efforts has nothing to do with his waiver. Interestingly, he is listed as the most frequent visitor to the White House. Who knew?
This whole abortion was ill-conceived and shoved through Congress with threat, fraud and coercion. Even my union, the AMA, got on board and sold out its doctors and patients when they were threatened with losing those lucrative coding contracts that help decide what doctors are paid for particular procedures. Secretary Kathleen Sibelius (sp?) hid from Congress a report from the Office of Medicare and Medicaid Actuary a report showing that Obamacare would cost $311 million more than projected – hid it, that is, until the Congress had voted to pass the plan.
So what we see is that a)Congress exempts itself and the President from a healthcare plan it mandates for everybody else, and b)they exempt their very best friends, too. I think that tells you what they really think of their own plan.
What a mess. The only thing left is these people being led out of the Capitol in handcuffs with coats over their heads. It may just come to that.
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By: PFesser53 on February 1, 2011
at 10:29 PM
jsri: another thing to consider in the Rutherford persons comment…….”Claire was the one responsible”. So he had to chastise. Last time it was just the woman conceiving, it was called the immaculate conception.
why bother to try to explain to someone like that unless they are VERY VERY dumb. ANd I doubt that is Rutherford’s issue……
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By: cryptoclearance on February 1, 2011
at 10:15 PM
Rutherford
Your castigation of Claire is totally out of line. How dare you take her to task for using “. . . one of the most irresponsible methods of birth control known to man. . .” Just for your edification it is improper to make such an arrogant comment about an event of the past based on your limited current knowledge. You weren’t around 35-40 years ago and obviously don’t have a clue as to what birth control methods were available or what the social mores were at the time and for the few methods that were in place, what it required to take advantage of them.
For practicing Catholics, anything outside the “rhythm method” was grounds for excommunication and many people were still attached enough to their church not to take the risk. Also, contraceptives were very expensive and available only by prescription and things like condoms were kept locked away from the public and had to be requested from the pharmacist.
After my mother “found herself pregnant” with her fifth child in the 1930’s during the Great Depression, she had her tubes tied after that and was excommunicated from the Church. I later followed her out the door but for different reasons.
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By: jsri on February 1, 2011
at 9:40 PM
Claire,
Thank you for sharing your story with us about your dilemma and the terrible choice you had to make all those years ago. I’m grateful that you finally found the sense of peace you deserve after hearing your daughter’s loving words.
Claire, here are my two cents. Unlike the scolding you got from Rutherford, I believe the MORE important issue here is NOT what “pro-life” people are enraged by, but that you carefully considered your specific circumstances and made your own tough choice to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. And if “pro-life” people can’t get their heads around that, for whatever reason, then so be it.
You probably share my concern that many, if not most, anti-abortionists want legally mandated, governmental intervention in the lives of EVERY pregnant American female, no matter her age, health, or circumstances, in order to closely monitor her womb from the moment of conception right on through to the live birth of EVERY fetus. Big Brother is all for “limited government” but still wants to be the final arbiter in every pregnancy; Big Brother knows what ALL pregnant girls and women need and deserve. Just ask Perry and the rest of his arrogant theocrats.
Of course, when the fetus becomes a birthed baby and then turns into a toddler, school kid, adolescent, teenager, and adult, he’s going to need food, clothes, glasses, dental and health care, and educational opportunities.
I’m reminded that the singular goal of Republicans is always to “cut taxes”–ya know, like Perry is working to do right now in Texas. So, while he and his cronies promote the exceedingly false promise that cutting taxes will “grow the economy”, the first GOP and GOTP casualties are, and will always be, anyone needing a hand up through social services, public services, public education, etc.
Ultimately, that “pro-life” stance draws to a speedy conclusion when cutting taxes just doesn’t feed hungry mouths. But, then again, caring for the least among us is not the concern of anti-abortionists, Republicans, and theocrats, is it?
You did what you felt that you had to do all those years ago. Please feel the good wishes I am sending you tonight for your openness in telling your tale. Return to Helen’s parlor and have another piece of pie and continue to contribute to the community of caring people here.
And, please hug your daughter for me.
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By: elsie09 on February 1, 2011
at 9:18 PM
Amazing, I remember when it hit a million, like it was yesterday!
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By: No one's puppet on February 1, 2011
at 6:34 PM
Dear Margaret and Helen,
Once again, I applaud you!!! You hit 4,000,000. Now, on to 5 – 6 – 7 —–
Please keep posting.
Aloha! 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on February 1, 2011
at 5:44 PM
Error in the system of pace and I found pregnant.
Claire, can not see how this comment very angry called pro-life people? With respect, you more than me and probably wiser. I am not referring to teach you but you did not “find yourself pregnant”. Use one of the most irresponsible methods of birth control known to man, took an incredible risk and become pregnant. Your comment sounds like demand for auto insurance that reads “I was driving and the tree of her got in my way.”
I abortion as contraception afterwards to the facts is not something that we should applaud. It has a really wonderful daughter who is sad that he had to live with guilt so long and was kind enough not to the question of how decisions in the first place could be so irresponsible. Few people deserve a lifetime of guilt and so sorry but you trivialize the matter when he says “found yourself pregnant”.
PS: I am pro-choice but I know a declaration laying legitimately heads pro-life burning when I see one
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By: Rutherford on February 1, 2011
at 4:51 PM
Okay, you two. Time to write a BOOK!
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By: Mack on February 1, 2011
at 3:27 PM
What a great day—4 million hits
Love you Helen and Margaret
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By: Daily Reader on February 1, 2011
at 3:25 PM
**Hooray** 4 Million. Thank you Margaret and Helen, we love you. Keep it going.
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By: Mikat on February 1, 2011
at 3:04 PM
Pie and Tea for everyone!
4 Million Hits and counting!
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By: Charles on February 1, 2011
at 3:00 PM
HAPPY 4 MILLION HITS LADIES!!!!!!
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By: Gretchen Allred on February 1, 2011
at 2:59 PM
Congratulations M&H! Best wishes for the next 4 million!
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By: lori on February 1, 2011
at 2:49 PM
And Poolman thanks for your thoughts!
I still think of you ..even though your in the kitchen most of the time.
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By: Craig on February 1, 2011
at 1:49 PM
I was here for the first 3 million…I’ll be here for the 4 million mark!!!
Long live Margaret and Helen!!!
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By: Tina F. on February 1, 2011
at 1:43 PM
Eddie Louise: Yours was one of the first of all these many comments. I admit I have not read them all yet; because my throat is almost sore from cheering you so loudly!!
Let me further state that I am a 66 yr old white woman who had an abortion about 30 yrs ago. I already had 2 children and was feeling completely worn out from raising them to the very best of my ability. The rhythm system failed and I found myself pregnant. That child was most unwanted and I felt would have been very UNloved. So, I chose abortion rather than bring another child into my home that I knew I couldn’t love.
I prayed long and hard before making that decision and even up to right before the deed was done. I’ve lived with guilt ever since, but I knew I would.
However, I recently told my daughter about it and her wise words to me were: “I’m proud that you actually made a decision that was best for YOU, since you always do everything for others”. She helped me beyond belief. See, the two kids that I did raise turned out to be most intelligent, caring, creative, responsible, thinking adults with families of their own now.
And I no longer look back with regret.
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By: claire on February 1, 2011
at 12:44 PM
Here’s to 4 million and to the next 4 million hits!
Go, Margaret & Helen, Go!!!
🙂
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By: Delores on February 1, 2011
at 11:03 AM
Almost 4 Million Strong and counting!!!!!!!!
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By: Franics T. on February 1, 2011
at 10:17 AM
I love it, a dash of humor as only the brits can do 🙂
By: Tobi on February 1, 2011 ” Being a Brit, I can tell you that we find it odd this is a political issue in the colonies…..”
Helen certainly opened Pandora’s Box with this post. All the hullabaloo seems to be about a question someone asked and feels no one answered.
Question: Is the child five minutes before it is born the same as the child five minutes after it is born?
Answer: Of course it is the same child. End of debate.
Donna stated the reasons behind the legal definition. Again end of debate.
The same question could be asked regarding the legal definition of a person being declared dead. If the brain is removed and kept alive through medical intervention is that person dead? Can’t you just imagine all the brains lined up in jars in a special room.
Is there any difference in driving 55 mph versus 58 mph? No, but we have a law.
Have I answered the question? Now if you wanted to debate the law, then say so!
The one thing missing in the comment sections of blogs is the concept of the art of communication and the rules of debate. It always appears to me that some people just have to have the last word.
On to another subject???? Woo Hoo!!!!! Almost 4 million hits.
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By: Raji on February 1, 2011
at 9:54 AM
delurkergurl, you’re right! We’re 4,000,000 strong probably today! Margaret and Helen rock.
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By: dawn on February 1, 2011
at 9:54 AM
Yes, it should cross 4 million today! How about a huge tribute to Helen & Margaret to show our appreciation?
Way to go, Margaret & Helen! Long live your intelligent blog!
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By: delurkergurl on February 1, 2011
at 9:16 AM
Obviously the real Matthew helped because some of the mess has been cleaned up, but I don’t think that post from ‘Matthew’ was really Helen’s Matthew. Seriously, can you imagine Helen being ‘confused’ by ‘stalker business’ and Matthew basically telling her not to worry her pretty little head over it, he can just make it go away??? That’s not our Hell’n. ‘Matthew’s’ post has been deleted so I have a hunch it was just more games.
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By: delurkergurl on February 1, 2011
at 9:15 AM
Almost 4 million hits!
Way to go Helen!
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By: Cedric on February 1, 2011
at 9:06 AM
Matthew, it was nice reading your post. Thank you for cleaning some of the mess. Good to hear your grandfather is doing better. Best regards to your family and Helen’s and Margaret’s also.
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By: sunshine on February 1, 2011
at 8:48 AM
Best I can figure, Matthew came in a cleaned the porch but didn’t ban anyone. We’ll see how clean it stays.
Back to the issue at hand.
Being a Brit, I can tell you that we find it odd this is a political issue in the colonies. Here it is a medical issue left up to medical professionals to decide.
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By: Tobi on February 1, 2011
at 8:08 AM
This has to be one of the best if not the best written blog. You two ladies are awesome! I look forward to your next post!
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By: Susan in Sadona on February 1, 2011
at 8:02 AM
Helen, you are just the best…ever! I love this blog!
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By: Claudia Jean on February 1, 2011
at 7:44 AM
Best Post Yet! Helen is Queen!
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By: Stuart R on February 1, 2011
at 7:20 AM
Matthew, thank you for all you do to maintain your grandmother’s blog, not only for her, but also for us, her readers. We really appreciate it.
Now, I’m back to expectantly awaiting Helen’s next great “take” on the issues of the day…
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By: elsie09 on February 1, 2011
at 7:00 AM
It appears only the posts about a stalker have been removed.. All the “that wasn’t me” crap. All else is still there. Noah is free to debate as are us all. I think Matthew did the right thing. Next…
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By: Stella on February 1, 2011
at 6:59 AM
People have been gradually leaving here in frustration for a long time. People are free to be jerks, and that seems to be the bigger risk than a little common sense moderation of their own porch.
At nearly 4,000,000 hits, this blog doesn’t seem to be in danger, and talking about something else could be a refreshing, positive difference.
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By: delurkergurl on February 1, 2011
at 6:38 AM
Sitting here in the South, everything is fat and happy. Watching TWC, it looks like Oklahoma and northern TX are really getting pounded! Ditto my old friend in NYC. I think he’s a little sorry he moved.
How’s it look from the inside perspective? James, are you still there or are you frozen?
On another topic: “My hope is to reset the board’s dynamic in hopes that the free exchange of ideas can continue without interruption.” I couldn’t agree more. “The free exchange of ideas” dynamic is IMHO what keeps this and all other boards alive.
My experience has been that any time a blog owner censors to maintain idealogical purity, the zealots may be happy, but the blog dies. The wasteland that is NNTP is littered with newsgroups that have two posts a month, many precisely for that reason.
The freedom to express oneself is a messy thing, but the alternative is so much worse. Bravo.
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By: PFesser on February 1, 2011
at 6:06 AM
What just happened here? Last night Noah implied that Matthew has been “stalking” him and has been spouting about attorneys, etc. “Matthew” comes in and deletes what Noah must consider “evidence” and he’s not only OK with it, he says he’ll move on (but didn’t). I see that his post, “Just read your message Matt and I will respect your wishes and move on.” has been deleted, though, along with several other posts. Confusing.
There are still over THREE HUNDRED times the word Noah is used on just this page according to my browser. That’s after deleting a lot! Can the Noah drama please be over now? He’s one guy, and this blog has thousands of fans. It’d be so sad if he succeeds at what appears to have been his goal all along. He’s not going to move on, but can he stop being the center of attention? Please?
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By: delurkergurl on February 1, 2011
at 5:39 AM
Thank you Matthew!
And thank you Helen and Margaret for having us all in!
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By: alaskapi on February 1, 2011
at 1:14 AM
I have read this blog for many months and I love it. I have noticed that Helen seems to take great umbrage when someone used God or the threat of hell to justify their politcal beliefs.
Just thought I would mention that… Noah.
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By: Geena on January 31, 2011
at 11:53 PM
Ah, another 2 posts for us M&H fans. Yippee! I’ve read most of the posts. Not that I’m a fan of Noah’s, but don’t feel like participating in the pile on. I’m pro-child, and pro choice. Gov Goodhair has to get his publicity and stir up controversy when he can. Meanwhile, my husband is still unemployed, and my dad will be having triple bypass with aortic valve replacement and aneurysm repair tomorrow. (better to do it all at once I guess)
Tell the people you love, that you love them, and don’t waste time on the petty stuff. Craig, loved the joke. Best to your wife.
Love this porch, thanks for letting me be a part of it.
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By: dawn on January 31, 2011
at 11:20 PM
And Noah. Read my comment at 9:20PM. Then read your answer at 9:47PM.
Did you notice that you didn’t answer my question?
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By: Teetsie on January 31, 2011
at 11:19 PM
Noah. That is simply not true. I am not questioning if they have been rude or not. I am saying that they ahve indeed given you answers. One suggested to you that the fetus is not developed enought to be considered a child (science). One told you that the rights of the fetus are cancelled out by the rights of the woman (legal). Another suggested to you that women don’t make the decision lightly and the government shoud stay out (emotional). Still another said the 5 min before 5 mins after question depends on what happens during that 10 mins. (factual)
You seem to take issue with how they deliver their answers which is funny considering you posed the question only after calling everyone sheep and then suggesting that there is a special place in helll for Helen.
You – not we – are avoiding the issue. You have your answers. You just don’t agree with them. So move on…
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By: Teetsie on January 31, 2011
at 11:16 PM
Teetsie, to the questions I asked. I’ve been told for a week I am wrong, then they go on about giving their opinion on the issue, ignoring the question entirely.
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By: Noah on January 31, 2011
at 9:47 PM
Danny, if you don’t like what I post do not waste any more of your precious time and just scroll on past..problem solved. That way you don’t have to waste anymore time being nasty to someone and no one else has to read it
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By: Noah on January 31, 2011
at 9:22 PM
Noah your question has been answered seven ways to Sunday. With what or when exactly will you be satisified? I suspect the answer is when everyone agrees with you which is why this board seems to find you in such low esteem.
I agree with other posters. You are a perfect example of what is wrong with the current poltical process. You ingore everything and perfer to stick solely with your narrow talking points. The discussion has been happening all around you and yet you remain in a monologue.
Answers from the reference points of legally, emotionally, morally… they have all been answered. Now answer me this one question:
Being you have spent the better part of a week asking the same question over and over again and have yet to like any of the answers provided, what answer are you looking for?
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By: Teetsie on January 31, 2011
at 9:20 PM
Continue digressing!!!!
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By: Mrs k on January 31, 2011
at 9:11 PM
Noah. Are you always this obssessive-compulsive or just here? Really we don’t care. Please solve your problem in private.
And if you are suggesting that this site is doing it, I find that rather hard to believe. It would be much easier to just block you rather than shadow you.
Get a clue and then get a life.
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By: Danny on January 31, 2011
at 9:09 PM
Craig, it’s good to hear an update from you. I’m sorry if the things I said about you stung. You didn’t used to behave very well and many of us didn’t behave too well in response. I’m glad we’re past it. It’s good to talk like people instead of opponents, huh?
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By: delurkergurl on January 31, 2011
at 6:30 PM
Since I did all of these things in advance it would seem that my secret admirer is rather obvious.
It’s always about YOU, isn’t it.
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By: Guest on January 31, 2011
at 6:19 PM
Craig, I was one of those, who thought a good woman was beyond you, but as you know that has all changed. And yes, women do like granite counter-tops. You and Valerie hang in there, eventually you’ll get your lives back.
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By: No one's puppet on January 31, 2011
at 4:11 PM
Fragrant Liar –
“No need to tell me if I don’t like it, don’t come back. I certainly will because I like this blog. Just making an observation–which is my right–and perhaps asking for more civility, even in the imparting of extreme emotions and opinions. Is that possible?”
Fanned!
It seems to me that extremely opposite opinions, such as we see here all the time, are incomparable opportunities to learn! Why squander that by insulting someone we disagree with (and perhaps driving them to being just lurkers), instead of trying to understand their point of view? What a waste…so much to learn, so easy to piss it all away.
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By: PFesser on January 31, 2011
at 3:46 PM
Poolman –
Interesting article on slashdot predicts that a “gene” for religiosity will grow to dominate society.
http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/01/29/2350217/Model-Says-Religiosity-Gene-Will-Dominate-Society
Thoughts?
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By: PFesser on January 31, 2011
at 3:40 PM
Thanks for the update on Valerie, Craig. I’m still sending her good juju. Also, I snickered at your joke. Maybe I’m a little juvenile too. 😉
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By: Tine on January 31, 2011
at 2:48 PM
Good to “see” you back, Craig. And sharing humor tells me you are in a better place mentally than you were several weeks ago. I do not spend as much time here as I used to. The atmosphere is not the same. I do still appreciate a lot of the comments and have developed friendships with many here. I just choose not to bait and argue with folks that are not willing to respect others or learn things from others. I agree with Fragrant Liar and many who have expressed similar views. We all need to be civil. Love covers a multitude of sins.
God bless and shower you with His love, I pray. I am still asking for total healing for your gal Val.
Peace to ALL who pass through here.
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By: poolman on January 31, 2011
at 2:40 PM
Fragrant Liar,
Your commentary made my point.
I was once rude and antagonistic. But I really wanted discourse.
I believe 90% of the people here are genuine in their respective beliefs.
Some may just want to stir the pot.
I really like reading others views..and while, I’ve been accused of not being able to debate..does not in any way keep me from at least expressing my views.
I would probably be able to sit and have coffee and be in the company of very nice people if we were outside this “electronic coffee house”.
People for the most part here have been civil and have expressed their heartfelt concern for my wife. I appreciate that. People who I though would never give me the time of day have actually returned kindness and civility towards me and my family. Ranting for the sake of ranting..no I do not want to go there again.
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By: Craig on January 31, 2011
at 2:21 PM
Just an observation… I love Margaret and Helen. I am almost always amused and happy when I leave here–such great writing, intellect, arguments, and humor. Today I’m really bothered by the atmosphere here. And it’s not Margaret and Helen that are disturbing me. Their blog, their right to their opinions and how they express them. All the commenters have rights to their opinions and manners of expression too.
What bothers me is this: The sum total of these comments (and I read 75% of them before I shook my head and gave up) feels like a microcosm of the United States’ collective psyche right now. So much anger and rancor spewed and then spewed right back. How hard is it to make our points reasonably? How hard is it to have a rational conversation about emotional things like life and unborn children and personal rights to choose? How hard is it to be civil, one American to the other?
This comment isn’t about WHAT people are saying so much as HOW. So easy to be flip, rude, and cruel when you’re not face to face with someone who’s opinion differs from yours. If we stood right beside the person we disagreed with and tried to substantiate our respective points of view, would this vitriol still exist? Or to this degree? I think not. So many of these comments are like watching road rage and the subsequent tragic accident that occurs as a result.
No need to tell me if I don’t like it, don’t come back. I certainly will because I like this blog. Just making an observation–which is my right–and perhaps asking for more civility, even in the imparting of extreme emotions and opinions. Is that possible?
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By: Fragrant Liar on January 31, 2011
at 1:31 PM
“if a unborn child 5 minutes from birth so very different than one 5 minutes after birth”…
I suppose that would depend on whether if, sometime in the intervening 10 minutes, the mother was likely to die or be severely injured.
I seriously doubt that anyone is in favor of abortion ‘for convenience’. It’s not particularly convenient and I’ve yet to meet a woman who took it lightly.
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By: judith on January 31, 2011
at 12:54 PM
Craig –
My wife once told me that for the most part, once a woman reaches 45 or so, she can take sex or leave it. Certainly been my experience over the many years…anyway, your story reminded me of a little anecdote sent to me by a friend.
The Husband Store
A store that sells new husbands opened in New York City where a woman may go to choose a husband. Among the instructions at the entrance is a description of how the store operates:
You may visit this store ONLY ONCE! There are six floors and the values of the products increase as the shopper ascends the flights. The shopper may choose any item from a particular floor, or may choose to go up to the next floor, but you cannot go back down except to exit the building!
So, a woman goes to the Husband Store to find a husband. On the first floor the sign on the door reads:
Floor 1 – These men Have Jobs She is intrigued, but continues to the second floor, where the sign reads:
Floor 2 – These men Have Jobs and Love Kids. ‘That’s nice,’ she thinks, ‘but I want more.’
So she continues upward. The third floor sign reads:
Floor 3 – These men Have Jobs, Love Kids, and are Extremely Good Looking. ‘Wow,’ she thinks, but feels compelled to keep going.
She goes to the fourth floor and the sign reads: Floor 4 – These men Have Jobs, Love Kids, are Drop-dead Good Looking and Help With Housework. ‘Oh, mercy me!’ she exclaims, ‘I can hardly stand it!’
Still, she goes to the fifth floor and the sign reads:
Floor 5 – These men Have Jobs, Love Kids, are Drop-dead Gorgeous, Help with Housework, and Have a Strong Romantic Streak.
She is so tempted to stay, but she goes to the sixth floor, where the sign reads:
Floor 6 – You are visitor 31,456,012 to this floor. There are no men on this floor. This floor exists solely as proof that women are impossible to please. Thank you for shopping at the Husband Store.
PLEASE NOTE: To avoid gender bias charges, the store’s owner opened a New Wives store just across the street.
The first floor has wives that love sex.
The second floor has wives that love sex and have money and like beer
The third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors have never been visited.
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By: PFesser on January 31, 2011
at 12:48 PM
Perry is a rethug and so like others of his ilk their life care concerns are sperm, egg and shiavo…anywhere in between and they don’t care…..
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By: Deb on January 31, 2011
at 11:57 AM
Grandma, your daughter in law was FORCED to carry a dead baby for another month? That is illegal and lethal to the mother as the foetus breaks down internally and toxicity enters the blood stream. My mother’s doctor was a whole lot smarter and legal than that with a late term foetus that went dead. Otherwise I would not be here.
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on January 31, 2011
at 11:53 AM
Have not posted in a while. Thought I would weigh in.
I believe its a woman’s decision. Abortion though just for the sake of expediency is not something I would like. My son’s “birth Doc” lived next to my In laws house. He also did abortions for women who had medical issues that threatened the woman’s life.
I watched one Sat am long ago as a bunch of protesters showed up on a quite Saturday to march and bullhorn this Doc’s residence. I had to take issue with some of them as they just saw only part of the story. That’s my perspective. My wife had a “Ectopic” pregnancy during our second and final try for another child. The same Doc gave me a choice..and I chose my wife. Back then the chances of it occurring again according to the Doc were very good. Today things have improved and chances for the next birth to be a normal birth are better.
On another note..I have read where I was considered to be juvenile and hostile
in the past. Perhaps because I disagreed with some on this site about political issues and voiced my disdain..I do not think I should be considered hostile. I still see signs of beratement for some who state their beliefs. I realize I’m just a visitor and a guest of the blog site. I will not state or deny that I did not behave in a less than gentlemanly way or call people names. I’m sure one or more can recount some of these past entries.
It’s just that some guests here are held to different standards for what they say and how they say it. 🙂
AS for my wife Valerie..you know, the one who is my “imaginary doctor wife” 🙂
I remember some who could not believe some woman could be so stupid as to marry some one of “my caliber” or some words to that effect.
…She had her blood drawn this am and will meet with Oncologist tomorrow..as we wait further results from Dallas Baylor and their tissue stains.
Now here is one last comment/joke. I began 2010 with upgrading my wife’s kitchen so she have the kitchen of her dreams. I wanted her to have the complete stainless kitchen..with a gas run for a new stove top,new plumbing .and just added the granite counter tops just as my wife began her chemo treatments. Just waiting now for the back splash tiles to be installed this week to get rid of the early ghetto look with wires exposed etc… But the following joke crossed my e-mail this past weekend. I may offend some..OR ALL…but I can relate to this..
Have a good week YouuAll..!
***************************************************************
A man wakes up in the
hospital bandaged from head to foot. The doctor comes in and says, “Ah,
I see you’ve regained consciousness. Now you probably won’t remember,
but you were in a huge pile-up on the freeway. You’re going to be ok,
you’ll walk again, but your penis was severed in the accident and we couldn’t
find it.”
The man groans, but the doctor goes on, “You have $9000 in insurance
compensation coming and we now have the technology to construct a new
penis. They work great but they don’t come cheap. It’s roughly $1,000 an
inch.” The man perks up. “So,” the doctor says, “You
must decide how many inches you want. But I understand that you have been
married for over thirty years and this is something you should probably
discuss with your wife. If you had five inches before and get nine
inches now she might be a bit put out. If you had nine inches before and you
decide to only invest in five inches now, she might be disappointed.
It’s important that she is involved the decision making
process.” The man agrees to talk it over with his wife.
The doctor comes back the next day, “So, have you spoken with your
wife?”
“Yes, I have,” says the man.”
And has she helped you make a decision?”
“Yes” says the man.
“What is your decision?” asks the doctor.
“We’re getting granite counter tops.”
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By: Craig on January 31, 2011
at 11:40 AM
Elsie –
“Matthew, we beseech you to please clean up the blog here. Your grammie’s post is overflowing with excessive amounts of bullshit emanating from a seriously unhinged person. I’m sure that a preponderance of the rest of us would ALL be most appreciative if you could work a little admin magic.”
What constitutes “cleanup” or “unhinged” just might depend upon which side of the argument you are on. “Cleanup” for the sake of quelling any dissenting opinions is what they do in China and Iran – and I believe unworthy of the intellects that play here. I for one like to debate with Noah, because – unless personally attacked – he tends to keep the argument on a non-personal, intellectual basis. Et tu? Et al?
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By: PFesser on January 31, 2011
at 9:20 AM
If only Noah’s mother would’ve had an abortion…
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By: Sarah on January 31, 2011
at 9:13 AM
I understand the law means a great deal to many of you but I am not in dispute with the law. I suppose I see a small inconsistency on how many of you place so much of your argument on it being the law passed by our government then in the same breath say how the government has no place legislating a woman’s body.
I am coming from the perspective of morality and ethics. My point in asking the question if a unborn child 5 minutes from birth so very different than one 5 minutes after birth was to suggest that at some point an unborn child has enough potential of being Human being worthy of being considered as more than just a fetus than can be discarded without a second thought.
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By: Noah on January 31, 2011
at 8:02 AM
This is my first time reading “margaretandhelen” and I think I love you both! Helen makes some excellent points. Here’s one more to add to those of the other posters, especially Danielle: the federal government has never considered a fetus to have the same significance as an already-born child. After all, pregnant women do not get a tax deduction for their “one on the way.” Why not? Because so many unfortunate things can happen between conception and birth, including spontaneous abortion and stillbirth. No, a baby is a baby after it is born.
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By: Anais on January 31, 2011
at 7:10 AM
I agree completely. Before Texas, Oklahoma (my home state) passed the ultrasound law, plus another gem: a doctor is allowed to LIE to a woman about her fetus’s health if he thinks she will choose to have an abortion because of it. I moved to Texas recently, and was relieved I would no longer have to worry when I chose to have a baby whether my doctor was being honest when he/she said my baby was healthy. Thanks to “good ole’ Ricky” it seems I am right back where I started.
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By: Caryn on January 31, 2011
at 2:42 AM
“My faith teaches me that there is a special place reserved for people like you who try and spread the message of hate and intolerance as you do.”
Noah. This is why you will never warrant respect on this board. You suggested that Helen belongs in hell and then you sit back and cry foul when people get angry with you or call you a fool. Glass houses, Noah. Glass houses.
To answer your question: The constitutional right to life, libertly and the pursuit of happiness is quaranteed to every US citizen. The courts ruled that a fetus is not a US citizen and therefore the mother’s rights to the above prevail. As the fetus develops, the courts determined, so do its claim for rights. Eventually they become on equal status with that of the mother’s. A sonogram and a heartbeat do not constitute citizenship. Nor does brain activity as you suggest. Great minds debated this issue and it appropriately made its way to our highest court. Several appeals have lost. That should be the end of it.
Perry is simply grandstanding for the party base and in doing so is causing undue emotional harm to millions of women. He is, in fact, impedeing on their pursuit for life, liberty and happiness.
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By: Danielle on January 31, 2011
at 1:57 AM
It is exactly becuase this issue can only be decided based on morals that it must be decided outside of the political arena. It is a private medical decision between a woman and her doctor. There are laws on the books that protect the life of the unborn child in certain circumstances. Perry is simply playing to his base as he prepares to run for President. He doesn’t care how many women he steps on to get there.
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By: Danielle on January 30, 2011
at 11:25 PM
Fantastic Blog. You have a way with words. Keep it up.
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By: toot on January 30, 2011
at 11:22 PM
Perry is like a cockroach. You can’t kill him. He was even elected the last time with only 37% of the vote. Damn Kinky Friedman is responsible for that one and his joke was a loss for Texas.
Perry and Palin are too idiots who fail to see the ramifications of their selfish pursiut of personal fame and wealth. They are bringing our political system and this country to its knees.
I am one sad Republican. Also, I am one of the many Pro-Choice Republicans. Family Planning used to be a Republican program back when the party had thinkers at the helm.
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By: Gerald on January 30, 2011
at 11:19 PM
And if I did strike a nerve and saved a baby’s life then heaven awaits me as my reward. That, afterall, is what we are put on this earth to do. Good night all.
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By: Noah on January 30, 2011
at 10:58 PM
According to patrons of the gym, All-American Fitness added this new big heavy pull thing Tuesday, over in the corner by the leg press. The thing, which is reportedly pretty much a bunch of tubes and wires and pulleys, has different handles you can attach to it, including a T-bar, two loops on a rope, and some kind of metal swoosh. “I think it’s supposed to work your front muscles,” gym member Liam Kern said. “I did see a guy working his legs with it, though.” No one had worked up the courage to ask the gym staff how to use the pull thing, and one person actually strained her quads when she attempted to push it.
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By: Noah on January 30, 2011
at 10:31 PM
Anonymous, you’ve got it all wrong. I’ve been reading Helen since “the beginning”, when I understood that her grandson, Matthew, set up this blog for her to communicate better with her old friend, Margaret. After that, the whole thing just kinda went viral. She’s like a modern day Molly Ivins, who I still miss, just as I continue to miss Barbara Jordan and Ann Richards. I am strongly progressive, I live in Texas, and I vote against Gov. Goodhair every chance I get.
Occasionally, someone comes along and messes all over Helen’s kitchen, her parlor, and out onto her front porch. Infrequently, Matthew steps in and does a little housecleaning. That was the purpose of my comment to him. I’m sorry if you think somehow I am a troll, or that I support theocrats and other asshats. I do not. Never have; never will.
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By: elsie09 on January 30, 2011
at 9:53 PM
Anonymous I think he meant Noah not Helen
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By: Stella on January 30, 2011
at 9:50 PM
Hey Elsie,
If you don’t like what Helen writes, then go somewhere else…quit trolling here and go out to Rick Perry’s and cheer him on.
I applaud you, Helen, for speaking up – regardless of popularity – you speak for many of us who feel the same way. Wouldn’t it be nice if
Governor Goodhair cared as much about the children who are living now in Texas as he professes to care about fetuses? It’s good political positioning for him to stand up and profess to be pro-choice….that’s the only reason he’s put the ultrasound bullshit on the emergency agenda. Governor Goodhair just wants the right wing repugnicans to support him – so he picks the issue that will bring him the most support.
Hurrah, Helen! Keep on posting – and the trolls can just find another place to go…really, I mean it!
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By: Anonymous on January 30, 2011
at 9:42 PM
Donna. No worries. This Board has survived much worse. Ignore Noah and the problem will survive itself.
Good bye Noah! Good luck with your stalker(s). I can’t say that I won’t miss you cause a small part of me – the LMAO part – would be lying.
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By: Stella on January 30, 2011
at 9:36 PM
MATTHEW?
Hey…..MATTHEW!!!
Your grammie herself said:
“Noah dear. Stick to football. And Mrs. Noah? Slap him for me. He really should spend more time tending to you rather than writing to me. But I digress. I mean it. Really.”
Matthew, we beseech you to please clean up the blog here. Your grammie’s post is overflowing with excessive amounts of bullshit emanating from a seriously unhinged person. I’m sure that a preponderance of the rest of us would ALL be most appreciative if you could work a little admin magic.
Thanks a bunch, Matthew. I mean it.
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By: elsie09 on January 30, 2011
at 9:29 PM
But he is a pretty hilariously stupid troll is he not. I have to admit that I have laughed out loud more than once at his delusions of grandeur! Ha ha ha.
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By: Stella on January 30, 2011
at 9:26 PM
What happen to not feeding the troll??
Let’s give it a shot…shall we?
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By: Rolff on January 30, 2011
at 9:22 PM
hi, Poolman! Yes it’s the “I have two stalkers” routine. One is a red stalker and one is a purple stalker and one lives down the street and one is a friend from church.
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By: Donna on January 30, 2011
at 9:18 PM
My, my, my. This is another fine mess you’ve gotten us into, Stanley. What do you have to say for yourself this time?
Pure comic gold.
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By: poolman on January 30, 2011
at 9:14 PM
Does anyone know the significance of 23 weeks and 6 days? It seems so random but I doubt it is. Curious…
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By: Stella on January 30, 2011
at 9:11 PM
Helen, Margaret, Matthew–If Noah’s normal obnoxiousness were not enough, this latest asininity is. At this point, it is deliberate hijacking of your wonderful blog and I sincerely hope you will block him. Thank you.
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By: Donna on January 30, 2011
at 8:46 PM
Helen rocks! Where have you been all my life?
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By: Rolff on January 30, 2011
at 8:34 PM
Great post Helen!
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By: Tina on January 30, 2011
at 8:33 PM
Is Margaret well??
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By: MLP on January 30, 2011
at 8:03 PM
Helen, you are best writer of humor. Problem with the people who are upset by what you write is because they want to be like you. But they do not have the talent that you have. They only smell of the dirt.
You are of greatness.
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By: Casa Noriega on January 30, 2011
at 8:01 PM
Did you hear something? Nope. Nothing there. Must be the wind.
LOVE YOU HELEN!!!!!
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By: Kathy Thorpe on January 30, 2011
at 7:58 PM
Good idea….this is a Noah Free Zone…from this point on.
Helen and Margaret….long may they live!!!
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By: Hilary on January 30, 2011
at 7:47 PM
Yall, please don’t stoop lower than Noah, k?
James, you made a comment about someone saying they disagreed with most of your opinions but still cared for you. I have said something similar about you. Whether it was my comment you were thinking of or someone else’s, I just want to explain why I’d think that. It’s because you think through your points and explain them. Whether we agree with the logic or not (generally not, LOL!), it’s clear you aren’t here just to stir the pot. You humanize yourself. You help others and stand up for what you believe in. You have your tough days (or weeks…), and that can get really awful, especially when you get angry & arrogant. Explaining why meant a lot to me peraonally. Not everyone likes your long stories and posts, and you can be a little inflammatory, but still there’s a solid self presented. I have enjoyed some of your stories and empathized with your family crises. I feel like my tone is coming off as “gee, we manage to tolerate you” but it’s not what I’m really trying to convey… We don’t have to agree to get along, and common ground can be found.
Craig went through an eternity of insulting everyone every time he came, with only brief moments of decency. The brief decent moments weren’t enough to erase the rudeness. (Reminds me of Noah…) Then his life took an awful turn and he dropped his juvenile/hostile persona and he discovered we’re pretty caring and nice around here. I hope he realizes that we aren’t the ones who changed!
There really only seem to be a few people who think we’re stupid or mean here and I think it says more about them than us.
As for Noah, it’s clear this isn’t the right place for him but he persists and will continue as long as he’s in the spotlight. I think he could have a lot more fun tangling with Tex and the Rutherford crowd, but I guess it’s more fun bashing us girls for whatever reason. (Not that we’re all girls, but we seem to be his primary targets)
Noah, I’m not going to take the time again to dig in and see what your impostor is doing to mimic you, but just make sure that BOTH your gravatar and wordpress accounts have been severed from your old email address. If you have to set up new accounts, do it, using different photos, etc. This person doesn’t need your password to pull it off, and if your password is as rugged as you said then I would guess they don’t have it. Start completely clean.
Sorry this turned into a speech. I’ll hunker down on my own blog and try to quit getting caught up in this juvenile drama for a while!
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By: delurkergurl on January 30, 2011
at 7:37 PM
All. This is all part of Noah’s game. There is no stalker. Only him. It’s a fairly good troll trick if you ask me. I say we no longer engage him. Don’t feed the Noah Troll!!!
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By: De on January 30, 2011
at 7:36 PM
Noah you are a liar.
Many on this board have indeed engaged you in discussion and more than reasonably answered your questions or responded to the touch you put forth. None of that has satisfied you.
You are not interested on discussion. You are interested in disrupting the otherwise wonderful exchange of ideas on this board.
You are as unsuccessful in bringing down this blog as you are at debating an issue. You are nothing.
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By: Theresa on January 30, 2011
at 7:30 PM
Noah. Helen called you a fool. What more do you need?
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By: Taft on January 30, 2011
at 7:21 PM
His “wife” is probably too happy to have him spend time on the computer leaving her at peace. Poor woman…can you imagine??
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By: SRT on January 30, 2011
at 7:08 PM
No ha: You have repeated the same phrases and chapters and verses a million times and we are sick of it. What do you not understand about that, No ha? PHHHTTTT
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By: sunshine on January 30, 2011
at 6:43 PM
Oh, please. This is the person who said today that if anyone could cite an example of him insulting anyone without first being insulted he would leave the post. When his first post in response to the last thread was pointed out to him, he claimed that his statements there (insulting the hosts and calling those who post here sheep) weren’t really insults.
This is also the person who was singled out as a “fool” and told that he should tend to his wife rather than posting here.
Yet, he claims that he’ll leave? No–it is too important to him to hang around here, trying to provoke people and get attention to himself. Certainly, it would be wonderful to avoid his mindless gibbering and preening. But don’t count on it.
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By: Donna on January 30, 2011
at 6:06 PM
and go ahead and cut off your penis like you mentioned earlier. No need to have anymore little Noahs running around.
Just saying.
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By: SRT on January 30, 2011
at 5:57 PM
YES!!!! LEAVE NOAH LEAVE!!!!!
We love Margaret and Helen!!!!!
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By: SRT on January 30, 2011
at 5:56 PM
They do. And so do most of the 3.9 million people following this blog.
You are a nuisance and add nothing of value to this blog. People are here to enjoy the writings of a gifted woman. Not to hear about your constant, neurotic drivel.
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By: Randall on January 30, 2011
at 5:55 PM
As a long time M&H follower…I say we all chip in and buy Noah a one-way ticket to Cairo. No hard feelings. Go…spread your beliefs. The word according to Noah.
Good riddance…
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By: Francis on January 30, 2011
at 5:52 PM
I’ll meet you folks half way, if Margaret or Helen would like me to leave I will do so.
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By: Noah on January 30, 2011
at 5:11 PM
Great post, Helen!
Noah, dear, maybe you should get your own blog. Look for happiness.
Life is just too short to spend it chasing your own tail.
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By: Grace C. on January 30, 2011
at 4:36 PM
Yo, Noah dude, you are messed up! You need to put the pipe down, dude. That shit will kill you. Face it, dude, you are nothing but an ass wipe and no matter what kind of drugs you do you are still going to be an ass wipe.
Whatever, party on.
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By: Luke on January 30, 2011
at 4:24 PM
I knew it was too good to be true.
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By: Sally Anne on January 30, 2011
at 4:21 PM
Prof said: You realize that you can’t do it perfectly so you agree to a solution, realizing that it is all arbitrary. You say: first trimester abort for any reason. Second, some reasons. Third, almost no reason is good enough.
What is wrong with doing it that way?
For the most part I can find nothing wrong with this statement. I would be happy if this were the case for most folks.
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By: Noah on January 30, 2011
at 3:48 PM
Donna: please keep me out of your volleys with this Noah person. Separate issue; DEFINITELY different people/posters. you addressed me, I addressed you. thank you.
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By: cryptoclearance on January 30, 2011
at 2:21 PM
ulterior motive..sorry for not checking spell check
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By: Noah on January 30, 2011
at 2:21 PM
I think another problem I have had is that I made certain assumptions about this board that were unjustified. I have only ever been on one other blog, and I made an assumption that is how the typical blog is run. On that blog, when a topic was raised, they would go back and forth as if an actual conversation was taking place, point counter point, and debate or argue different points of view. On this blog it seems this is more a place where like minded people come to post what they think but do not seek to have a conversation about it. They don’t want their ideas challenged or scrutinized, but rather just to post them and have people that agree with them tell them so. I can’t say I understand what purpose that serves but you are all welcome to conduct yourselves in anyway you see fit. I think I have better identified those that are willing and capable of having a debate and till try in the future cherry pick those that i read and try and respond to and leave the rest of you be.
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By: Noah on January 30, 2011
at 2:20 PM
Well I can’t say enough that I am pro choice and and for abortion when it is necessary. I was hoping to despite the law of the land have a discussion on why people feel an unborn child has no rights in their eyes. Unfortunately most could not separate themselves from the typical abortion topic to have a discussion on it. I have found the average ultra left winger has an anterior motive to most of the questions or answers they say and always assume those they debate with are the same way. I am not looking to change any minds as that really is a futile effort. As i said in an earlier post I want to here a logical explanation that supports said belief because I could not come up with one on my own. If I cannot come up with a plausible explanation then I cannot understand where many of you are coming from.
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By: Noah on January 30, 2011
at 2:11 PM
“I say the fetus absolutely has rights and here is why. I doubt anyone here would argue that a child has rights. If a child was 5 seconds old from having been given birth and someone came in and shot that child dead, I think we would all agree that person would have committed murder. I want those who do not believe a fetus has any rights to tell me what magical process has occurred passing from inside the mother to the outside world to suddenly giving this child basic human rights?”
Noah, if that was really you. Sounds like you, though…I think you have hit on the perfect argument for Roe v. Wade.
Extending your argument: What if the fetus were 38 weeks? 35 weeks? 28 weeks? We can save preemies at 23 weeks sometimes… How about abortion at 23 weeks 2 days? 3 days? 3 days 4 hours?
How do you resolve this? You can’t.
You realize that you can’t do it perfectly so you agree to a solution, realizing that it is all arbitrary. You say: first trimester abort for any reason. Second, some reasons. Third, almost no reason is good enough.
What is wrong with doing it that way?
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By: PFesser53 on January 30, 2011
at 1:57 PM
Now this is what I like! A good, lively discussion among smart people, with a minority of name-calling and sarcasm.
A million years ago I took a 5-hour embryology class (2, 3-hour labs a week! Man was that tough…) from the hardest, meanest and most demanding professor at the University – it was wonderful – and had embryo again as part of an anatomy class later on. Looking at embryos under the microscope really helped me formulate a position on abortion.
Looking at a 1-4 week embryo, you are basically looking at something really tiny. Heart cells are beginning to pulsate, but the heart is a simple tube at that point – it is nothing like a human heart. The neural tissue begins to develop, but there is no brain, no nerves as such, certainly no thought process or perception. (Incidentally, if you can find a video of heart development, it is the coolest thing you ever saw.)
But I digress.
As time goes on, the tissues continue to differentiate and near the end of gestation approach their final forms. Complete brain development doesn’t occur until well after the child is born; if memory serves, the insulation (myelin) isn’t complete for several years, which is why many think kids can rarely remember much before 4-5 years of age.
But first and foremost, to really understand gestation one has to realize that this whole process is just that – a process, a continuum – and that one cannot be dogmatic about when “life” begins. It is a process of using a set of blueprints to add nutrients and construct something that is slowly *becoming* a baby; it doesn’t start out as a perfectly formed little human that just gets bigger over time and sits in the womb for 9 months wondering what’s for dinner. Any concept of meaningful pain perception during abortion, vs simply reacting primitive nervous tissue is almost certainly moot until quite late in the gestation, in the same way eliciting primitive reflexes from Terry Schiavo had nothing to do with whether there was really anybody home.
I believe that if people with opposing views would just come together – with real information, not the rantings of some lay preacher – in their heads, I believe a reasonable compromise could be reached. One thing is for sure – abortion is, if an evil, is a necessary evil and it will not go away. We can make it illegal sure enough, but as they say, been there/done that. It is much worse and you do NOT want to go back there.
Just my .05.
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By: PFesser53 on January 30, 2011
at 1:46 PM
IT’S HOWDY DOODY TIME! BECAUSE I’M SURE TIRED OF THE NOAH SHOW! Noah, you are a fake, a phony, and most of all you the boring.
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By: No one's puppet on January 30, 2011
at 1:35 PM
Noah. Please just go.
Helen what a great blog. Your ability to use prose is beyond compare. I fear your high level approach to such an emotional topic simply hoes over the head intellectually of posters like Alexander and Noah. Don’t give them another thought.
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By: Taft on January 30, 2011
at 1:04 PM
OK. This is not me. I mean that is not me. Someone is targeting me. I am going to get an attorney. You will be sorry. You cannot hack my account and not face legal penalties.
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By: Noah on January 30, 2011
at 12:55 PM
I look back at my comments and I can no longer tell which are mine and which are not. If I called you a sheep it is because you are acting like a sheep. If I call you a shithead, which I did not, It would be because your head is made out of shit. Just because I don’t have female parts doesn’t mean I can’t assimilate the feelings of an abortion. If I were female I would have no issue with the government telling me what I had to do before having an abortion. I will leave this board when someone can tell me why I am wrong.
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By: Noah on January 30, 2011
at 12:51 PM
I think I see the sun shining again here at Margaret & Helen!
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By: Sally Anne on January 30, 2011
at 12:37 PM
Donna, I am finished with you.. from this point forward I will just pass your posts by and not read them. You are bar none the most intellectually dishonest person I have met in a long while. I wrote about my experience to try to being awareness to a problem I think the world as been ignoring for too long and you chose to use detract from that for your personal ends. I find you obvious and a despicable human being.
As for my posts to Margret and Helen I stand by what I say. Their way of thinking needs to stay in the past where it belongs. If we are ever going to get rid of people killing each other because race of differences in ideology then there is no room for it.
delurkergurl, if you are going to be so morally outraged at the word sheep, I will have to label you a hypocrite until you get equally outraged at what I have been called which is considerably worse. I’ve little patients for selective morals.
alaskapi, I will endeavor to try it your way. If a post personally attacks me rather than engage the topic at hand I will do my best to ignore then entire post and any response that it might contain.
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By: Noah on January 30, 2011
at 12:14 PM
Wow!! What a great blog and what great comments!!! Bottom line….Gov’t needs to stay out of our bedrooms, our relationships, and our choices…….loved the guy’s comment that shines light on the fact that ‘these folks’ are happy to make such a fuss over a women’s right to choice to save these not -yet -children but have no problem using precious financial resources to murder innocent men,women,children, and the unborn to further democracy!!!! (rambling sentence used purposefully because of the total disconnect of thought this represents!!!)
Kudos, Helen!! You ladies rock!!
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By: Miko on January 30, 2011
at 11:55 AM
Thank you too alsakpi. Back when false James appeared, you wrote you disagreed with almost everything I wrote but that you cared about me. Why? Rhetorical question. I don’t want an answer. I don’t understand how you or anyone else could “care” about me. It’s not you, its everyone I know- another quirk left over from when I broke.
I am gregarious and I enjoy being with people–up to a point. Thanks to the political meeting and the court case, I have been with a lot of people. I have some fame here, and folks I don’t even know seek me out to visit. That’s well and good, but my favorite state now is alone. I have to be alone now.
I am also an amature weather forecaster and we face a possible blizzard. Two friends and some others need to know what will happen on their business trip to Des Moines. I’m spending my time on that, since they trust me more than the Weather Service.
I think I will be back, but I don’t know. It has nothing to do with the folks who tolerate me or can’t stand me. I just want to be alone for awhile. I’m telling you this in case false James appears again.
I hope my little satire of many message boards amuses you.
“I met a young graduate
when I had no message board to call my own
I told her I was looking for somebody to appreciate
and I just didn’t want to do it alone
So for a while, we conducted experiments
on a big forum by the river road
and we found out that the two things we put together
had a bad tendency to explode.
So when I find myself alone and unworthy
I think about all of the things I’ve learned
from the fine fine women with good intentions
and a bad tendency to get burned
Its all about chemistry
Won’t you show everything you know?
I’ll memorize everything you do to me
so I can repay you when it comes my turn.”
Appologies to Semisonic
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By: James on January 30, 2011
at 11:20 AM
By that logic, someone could call Noah stupid, obnoxious, unstable, irritating, mean, illogical, stubborn and any number of other things and it wouldn’t be technically ‘name’ calling. Calling people sheep (and worse – yes, that post to Helen was worse) IS belittling and rude, and he does it in just about every post he makes. He’s incapable of asserting himself without doing it. However, it’s only wrong when OTHER people do it? What a breathtakingly immature position! He’s no victim.
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By: delurkergurl on January 30, 2011
at 11:16 AM
and let’s try to vote without insulting Noah in the process. Just whether it is an insult and, if so, why. Because I must assume that he truly means that he will leave if he insulted w/o being first insulted. I must also assume that if we explain to him just why his post was an insult, he–of the claimed open mind–will appreciate that it is and will take his leave. If not, we can assume that he really comes here for no reason other than to try to provoke people, to get attention for himself, and that his protestations about his interest in discourse and debate are wholly empty.
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By: Donna on January 30, 2011
at 11:12 AM
First of all Helen, I applaud you for your fantastic writing and sardonic wit. You’re right on the bullseye without ever being mean-spirited about it. I’m so glad that someone recommended I take a look at your blog. It was the fresh air I needed. You deserve a couple dozen roses and more.
As far as the Noah situation, my only addition to the comments would be, …is Noah pregnant? And if not, then why is he talking about his decision to abort or not? Is this some kind of weird extension of the trendy “we’re pregnant” phrase that couples use nowadays? If a man wants to feel like a woman then let him put on a dress or something, and find some other outlet. Otherwise, let women alone and let us do what we need to do. He won’t be feeling her labor pains and I’m pretty positive that he won’t be feeling the hysterectomy or the menopause 30 years from now, either.
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By: Samantha on January 30, 2011
at 11:07 AM
Actually, I don’t consider it slander. Whether you claim that you left the 6 months pregnant wife, after you and she supposedly had tried in vain for years to conceive, so that you could take this heroic trip to Darfur or whether you had taken her with you is really inconsequential. They are equally implausible.
But try again, Noah. Because the times shown by posts may vary depending on where we are in the country, go to your first post on the previous thread. And if you claim that you aren’t insulting people there, then virtually nothing will qualify in your book as an insult.
If you genuinely feel that your first post on the previous thread is not an insult, then I suppose we won’t be rid of you. Too bad–I have yet to see anyone other than James who apparently enjoys your “insights.”
Let’s put it to the group since you gave your word that you would depart this blog forever if shown an unprovoked insult. Votes please for Noah’s first post on the Planned Parenthood post?
As for being critical of others, I very much am. In fact, I disagreed with Cryptoclearance’s comments yesterday. However, there really isn’t anyone who is comparable to you in the sheer number, repetitiveness, or superficiality of their posts.
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By: Donna on January 30, 2011
at 10:52 AM
oh crimenently, Noah!
Pffftttt!
faithfully yours,
hippie commie liberal wierdo sheep-to-ewe,
Pi
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By: alaskapi on January 30, 2011
at 10:41 AM
Sheep is not name calling, it is a characterization of what you people are by your activities, sorry no cigar.
I looked at the time you specified jan 25 at both 9:02pm and 9:02am and I don’t see the comments you specified.
Also Donna I would like to thank for having the character to retract your slander when you were shown to be wrong about me and my wife @ By: Donna on January 26, 2011 at 7:27 PM. Oh wait, sorry, you didn’t did you?
I find it disturbing when its a left wing person that agrees with you, you have no problem with them attacking me, yet when I defend myself, you suddenly are inflicted sudden sense of morality and fair play that conveniently disappears whenever I make any comment at all. The word Hypocrite comes to mind. Fits in very well with the situational ethics I find to be so prevalent here on these boards.
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By: Noah on January 30, 2011
at 10:35 AM
Noah- please just change your email attached to your screen name and see if the impersonations stop.
I’m beginning to regret having any sense of fair play and requesting open rather than shadow confrontation for all.
I’ve been attacked in the past here and on other blogs – personally and idealogically. It’s a drag, I know. However, playing one-upsies and demanding the last word doesn’t help solve the problem, nor does making an idealogical remark and defending it from a shaky rationale based on straw-man or hasty generalization…
I don’t wish you ill but neither do I want to get involved in some kind of circular argument about chickens and eggs and who insulted who first.
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By: alaskapi on January 30, 2011
at 9:58 AM
ding, ding, ding….we have a winner! “Show me 1 example where I attacked someone unprovoked and I will never return to these boards.” Kindly go to January 24 at 10:10. You arrive calling the posters here “sheep.” You claim that Helen is “bigoted and ignorant.”
1/25/01 at 9:02. Put aside what Alive and Well said to you. See your insults to prochoicegrandma and other posters here who said nothing to disparage you–in fact, prochoicegrandma tried to offer facts (precisely what you claim to always yearn for).
Since I have absolutely no doubt that you are a man of your word, I think we all can happily proceed with the knowledge that you will be taking your observations elsewhere.
Free at last, free at last. Thank God almighty, we are free at last.
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By: Donna on January 30, 2011
at 9:54 AM
alaskapi, telling a person that they are wrong is not answering their questions. Every time I have disagreed with someone I explained why I disagree. I can count on one hand the number of times people have explained why they disagree. I gain no understanding of a persons point of view when they personally attack me, tell me I am wrong then disappear into the ether. Also note, every time, 100%, I was personally attacked first. Show me 1 example where I attacked someone unprovoked and I will never return to these boards. You and others conveniently fail to mention that when you attack me. I give what I get, when debated without attacks, I respond in kind, when attacked I sometimes return the favor. Since I know it is more about being right than admitting the truth I doubt this will get any play but I think we all know I am speaking the truth.
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By: Noah on January 30, 2011
at 9:38 AM
I wonder, could you show me where I called someone a name? Since we are all being fair please point that out for me as I know I never did.
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By: Noah on January 30, 2011
at 9:31 AM
delurker AND Noah-
Yes, Noah does provoke. The endless boring iterations of questions he wants answered but refuses to accept any response except the one he wants are enough to make me hurl. The underlying theme that he’s a thoughtful debater paired with the endless use of fallacious reasoning
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/ (see the right sidebar Noah )
is like fingernails on the chalkboard.
While accepting that the provocation from Noah’s corner is great , I think it just as toxic to conversation to use sneaky underhanded ways of getting at him.
It’s often said that poisoners are are cowardly murderers. This kind of horsepunky is the same kind of cowardly behavior.
We can ignore Noah, we can call him out…
We ought not be giving into despicable behavior to deal with him.
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By: alaskapi on January 30, 2011
at 9:08 AM
You are right. Noah gets what he deserves.
Karma sucks…with or without a penis.
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By: Sally Anne on January 30, 2011
at 8:42 AM
Thank you, James.
Alaskapi, you are right. But I was thinking that someone else could create a gravatar with the same photo as Noah and still “look” like Noah and use the name Noah. Noah should still do exactly what you explained, but there are still ways a person could mimic him. It stinks. If someone wanted to know which Noah was posting, it could be verified but most won’t take the time.
I keep hearing Dr. Phil in my head… you choose the behavior, you choose the consequences. I’m not defending whoever is targeting Noah, but Noah wouldn’t have this problem if he weren’t dedicated to belittling, name calling and arguing. He provokes others. Some will react. Since it’s the internet, those reactions might be fairly hostile with the anonymous nature. Pfessor isn’t the only one here who knows how to cloak his IP address, so I don’t know if even Matthew could help track this person down. Matthew may have no interest in helping since Noah’s been causing sufficient disruption here to warrant a shout out from his grandmother. Oops, there’s Dr. Phil again. 🙂
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By: delurkergurl on January 30, 2011
at 8:31 AM
Noah- go to your wordpress blog dashboard. Get in your personal settings and change the email associated with your account. WordPress support has plenty of how to info if you have trouble. Same with your Gravatar image.
Please change your email!!!! That’s all someone needs to co-opt your identity as regards comments-along with your username.
The password which protects your wordpress account does not protect comments as long as you stick with the same email attached to everything. Change it!!!!!!!!!!!!
Be very careful where you post after that.
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By: alaskapi on January 30, 2011
at 7:57 AM
Thank you delurkergurl for helping Noah. It confirms what I’ve already written about you. You are a nice person. I hope I didn’t embarrass you.
No disrespect intended. My wife and I were surrounded by Noah’s at the political meeting yesterday. Our state representative told us about a proposed law banning abortions after twenty weeks. Several people questioned it. Why not ban all abortions? The representative said he was as pro- life as they, but pro -choice is the law of the land.
My wife and I are pro- choice, I said, and while we oppose late term abortions, we were worried that this legislation might be a foot in the door. No, he said, the law was intended to stop one man. He is an Omaha doctor who performs late term abortions. I know him because he and I were stationed at the same Air Force base.
Nebraska has passed legislation which makes it more difficult for him to conduct late abortions and he has said he wants to cross the border into Iowa. The bill sets the limit at 20 weeks, the time when “babies” begin to feel sensation and pain and their brains are developing enough to recognize feelings.
Of course, the law would have the usual safeguards for the health of the mother and the need to remove still born babies etc.
The other thing that struck me was that although my wife and I were in the minority, no one was hostile or attacked us with snide comments. Maybe it is because we were face to face or perhaps it was midwestern civility. Maybe as well as Noahs we were also surrounded by delurkergurls.
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By: James on January 30, 2011
at 7:52 AM
Looking further – they didn’t set up a separate gravatar. It goes to MichiganNoah. I think that means they know your email address and are typing it on the email line, the same as they did when they were getting your quilt square. Have you given your email address to people who read this blog?
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By: delurkergurl on January 30, 2011
at 5:03 AM
Noah, they aren’t actually logging in as you, or clicking on the name would take you to your new blog. You weren’t logged in for your last comment either, or yours would link to your blog, too. Either they know your email address and are typing that on the address line, or they’ve lifted your photo and set up a gravatar to look like yours. I didn’t realize how easy it is to impersonate someone on wordpress – that really stinks.
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By: delurkergurl on January 30, 2011
at 4:50 AM
My daughter-in-law had a sonogram performed when she was eight months pregnant to determine the sex of the baby who was perfectly developed with a strong heartbeat at the time of the test. The next day the baby was dead. The poor girl was forced to carry the dead foetus another month to full term.
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By: Grandma on January 30, 2011
at 12:43 AM
Gawd! That Noah is one sick dude. Mentally, that is. I’ll bet his shrink would like him to find a new shrink before he does something that gets his name in the newspapers.
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By: Anonymous on January 29, 2011
at 10:21 PM
Why stop with your penis?
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By: Sally Anne on January 29, 2011
at 9:59 PM
You act like I actually read anything anyone writes on this board. I could care less what anyone else thinks. If I masturbate did I have sex? If I cut off my own penis, have I had a male abortion? If I play with myself have I managed to uncontrol women?
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By: Noah on January 29, 2011
at 9:50 PM
Noah. Give it a rest. We know what you think/ believe/ feel. Clearly we will not change your mind. Quit trying to change ours. Do you honestly have nothing else to do? How sad for you…
And btw if you would just google you would discover that the courts long ago ruled that at 23 weeks and 6 days an eleclective abortion is no longer legal. After that point there must be a medical reason. Your 5 mins before and 5 minutes after comment isn’t even a valid argument and has nothing to do with Perry’s law or Helen’s post. Jesus you are obstinate… And a lousy debator.
And please pay attention. I have answered your damn question. Move on.
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By: Reeta on January 29, 2011
at 9:37 PM
Jean covered it pretty well in my opinion.
Here are other “facts” to add to Jean’s discussion. The simple explanation I heard was that the Mayan calendar shows the end of a cycle or the world as we know it, not the end of the world.
Abortion and infanticide were committed in prehistoric times.
The female is biologically more valuable. Males are designed for protection and chasing dragons. The most fit father more babies and help make the species stronger.
Like Jean, I believe that especially in a primitive state, because males can never be sure they are the real fathers, they impose controls on females to increase their odds. This happens with other animals. For example, when a new lion takes over a pride, he may kill the cubs of his predecessor. I believe wolves do the same thing. So do tom cats on occasion.
I also believe humans reverted to a patriarchial religion after agriculture and settled villages replaced hunter-gathering. Lilith, Adam’s first wife may have been a vestige of an earlier time.
Males and females also wage a genetic war over the size of the baby. Bigger babies are more likely to survive, but they are harder to give birth to with more complications.
This discussion did some good at a political meeting my wife and I attended this morning. I used some of the material.
Our little group who was sued last October is becoming infamous. Our counter suit, and the other side’s possible contempt of court with libel has made four news papers so far. The largest, is the Omaha World Herald, or so we were told at the meeting. This is taking more and more time.
My cousin’s baby died, and the doctor had it out of her as soon as he found no signs of life.
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By: James on January 29, 2011
at 9:08 PM
Yoram, some people believe that the unboarn child has rights that need to be defended.
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By: Noah on January 29, 2011
at 9:04 PM
Thank you Helen once again.
And just a quick point about abortion: 30% of all abortions are natural. In fact, about 70% of first time pregnancies end in abortion. Yet, nobody seems to care that “God” or any kind of higher power, is “killing babies”.
The other point that I always wonder about is: If you are pro-life, well that’s wonderfull. Live your life as a pro-lifer. But why on earth do you care what a 16 year old girl in Detroit is doing? and, how ready are you to pay more taxes to support the baby, weather it’s adopted or not? oh right, you just want a woman to have a baby- after that, she’s on her own.
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By: Yoram on January 29, 2011
at 8:55 PM
Helen, you done good once again!! Loved it!
btw..Helen is my name too. 😉
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By: Ardiva on January 29, 2011
at 5:53 PM
NMJ, good post! By the way, any doctor who would do that would and should have his license revoked – and prosecuted – as the fetus (some use the term conceptus) is decaying from stillbirth. My mother had a number of miscarriages and then finally managed to carry nearly 8 months which resulted in a stillbirth. The doctor could tell the heartbeat had ceased. No way would he have left her in a sitution where she was forced go forward several weeks with poison running riot in her body. And still there are others who take the opposite tack despite the fact that such action/inaction would kill the living patient!! And I’m not just including men in this faction but their like-minded women!!! And, yes, I’ve said it before. If men were on the receiving end of such extraordinary draconian control there would be revolution.
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on January 29, 2011
at 4:12 PM
Mahalo auntie for a great post. Some may not agree and wish to challenge you, but I for one, enjoy just reading what you have to ‘say’. The fact is that the egg is much bigger than the sperm. for a reason. in this case can we say “bigger is better” 😉 much aloha.
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By: cryptoclearance on January 29, 2011
at 1:44 PM
Hi Congenial Gang,
For the benefit of some of the more enlightened group here, perhaps a short refresher course in Theology, Philosophy and Biology might be useful. For many millennia, better thinkers than any of us out here in cyberspace have been pondering the meaning of life, the origins of life, the afterlife and immortality. It will no doubt continue for many, many millennia to come, that is, unless we subscribe to the Mayan calendar that predicts the end of the world soon. In which case, none of it will matter much to any of us anyway.
Let’s see, from followers of Moses, Isaiah, Buddha, Confucius, Mohammed, to Jesus, The Good Shepherd, each has his/her own interpretation. Of course, the followers of none of the above believe in parables, i.e. analogies. It seems to me that the Creator gave us the gifts of legs so we could learn to walk and hands so we could work to take care of ourselves and our loved ones. He also gave us the magnificent gift of brains to think and perhaps expects us to use them to discover the wonders of his Creations.
I have learned from basic Biology 101 that the female egg and the male sperm are living cells. If fertilization does not take place, those living cells are sloughed off and die. Only one sperm out of the million or so in each ejaculation can penetrate an egg. The rest of the sperm go off and die. A dead egg and a dead sperm can’t do anything. The fertilized egg(s) travel down the fallopian tube of the female and implants itself in the uterus to begin the process of producing a human being. Therefore, the premise that human life begins at conception is an arrogant male fantasy since both cells are living to begin with.
There are a few historically recorded exceptions. Mythology, especially Greek and Roman, is replete with examples of mortal women having been impregnated by the Gods, thus producing virgin births.
In primitive societies, it took a very long time for the male to tumble onto the idea that he participated in any way in reproduction. When he did, he went from being the loving, protective, provider for his family to the authoritarian grandeur of knowing his sperm got there first. Or did it? A mother always knows her child is hers. The father, well it could be a little iffy. Hence, the male ego’s most vocal pusillanimous subjugation and punitive domination of the female.
Embryology has traced the progress of a new human being almost hourly from the embryonic stage to fetal to the full term of nine months’ gestation. In the female elephant, it is twenty-two months. The tse-tse fly, I forgot. Except in some unfortunate circumstances, the embryo/fetus/child is not viable outside the uterus until it is fully developed. Medical science has yet to devise a method of human incubation from fertilization to complete gestation, although it has perfected fertilization and implantation of an egg(s) in the female with very little effort on the part of the male.
Here is just one example of an analogy, (not a parable) on the origin of life. An ear of corn has any number of kernels, each with the potential to become a mature corn plant. Without sunlight, water and soil, it is not possible however. So each time you cook, butter and salt an ear of corn and consume it for your pleasure and the nourishment of your body, you are committing cannibalism on the origin of that corn plant’s life.
For shame.
This little treatise is only my opinion, that of an Old, Old Broad, and a progressive liberal at that. However, it appears to me that the primary function of some males is to impregnate fair maiden(s), afterwards grab their lances/swords (or any number of more modern Phallic Symbols), hop on their trusty steeds and go out and slay a few dragons. And then ride off into the sunset.
Anyone is welcome to challenge my opinion with ‘facts’.
Aloha! 🙂 🙂 🙂 Namaste. Shalom.
Auntie Jean
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By: JeanΔ ¥ on January 29, 2011
at 1:32 PM
Got it! duh. I agreed with your legal analysis, but yes, everything you wrote DOES relate to females. Thus there is always a control factor when one gender is at the receiving end of the laws with regard to the original topic here.
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By: cryptoclearance on January 29, 2011
at 1:25 PM
There is a single Donna. In beginning the post to respond to your statement, I mistakenly put my own name at the beginning of the post instead of yours. I hardly disagree with myself.
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By: Donna on January 29, 2011
at 1:11 PM
two donnas. why would one Donna use my name? Which Donna disagrees with the other Donna? How is that realted to my post ? Boy I am confused! I only found one Donna avatar.
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By: cryptoclearance on January 29, 2011
at 1:07 PM
Helen, I’m going to be 58 this spring. When I grow up, I want to be JUST LIKE YOU!!! You are amazing, brilliant, wonderful and I shared you with all my facebook friends.
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By: lolliedotcom on January 29, 2011
at 1:07 PM
In fact, I disagree so strongly that I used my own name rather than Crypto’s. But I believe my point was clear.
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By: Donna on January 29, 2011
at 12:55 PM
Donna–while I appreciate your compliment, I don’t agree with your conclusion. Certainly, that is not what I was saying. Nor is it what I believe.
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By: Donna on January 29, 2011
at 12:54 PM
cryptoclearance, could never be about the child itself…cause the universe revolves around the topic of controlling females.
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By: Noah on January 29, 2011
at 12:36 PM
Donna, thank you for your very well well written and thought out post.
In the end – it is still about the control of females.
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By: cryptoclearance on January 29, 2011
at 12:24 PM
I had a girl student who would not take off her coat. She was 15. It was the start of the new school year. The counselor and I finally, weeks later, got her to take her coat off and she started talking about her summer.
Her father had a bar, connected to the house. After drinking this particular summer, men started going to her room. She had nightly visits from unknown individuals. She got pregnant. He mother would not believe her when she told her about it.
She had an abortion and put into foster care. Some men went to jail, including her father. She had no Sonogram – Thank God!
Thank You Helen for taking on this topic and Noah. Abortion should be an option, without the sonogram.
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By: JuneauJoe on January 29, 2011
at 10:38 AM
Donna- yes, it is all a balancing act in our public dealings in the law.
It is well to remember a couple things, one of which you state carefully along with your personal stance.
Taking stock of one’s own stance should include the understanding that many, many women may or may not share your own situation as regards security and support.
Understanding this is difficult because we really want to believe that all people come to the table with the same opportunities for making sensible choices.
http://www.ajpm-online.net/article/PIIS0749379798000178/abstract
They do not.
Another thing, aside from the history of abortion itself, is the relative newness of the idea reproductive choice in and of itself and to some extent what basic advances in medicine have handed us in the last hundred years.
When my grandmothers were having their babies , starting just a hundred years ago, maternal mortality in childbirth was a relatively common occurance, mortality in children from infection and disease was high and general life expectancy was much lower overall. One grandmother was one of 5 of 12 children who survived to adulthood in her immediate family.
One had 6 children over 20 years with many miscarraiges. The other had 11 children over 22 years with no miscarraiges. Both had children ( both of my parents ) who had disease/medical emergencies which killed untold numbers of children in their own generation but whom survived because of basic advances in medicine.
Both had all but their last child at home, one had her first in January in a tent banked in with snow to stave off -30 deg temps outside.
Both lived to see the pill and other birth control devices come on the scene. Both had some religious reservations ( Catholic and Russian Orthodox ) but felt it was just as important an advance for women and children as the immunizations for tetanus and polio which would save other families the fear and heartbreak they had gone through themselves.
We all know, if we are paying attention, that medical services including birth control are not readily available to all nor have we as a society dealt at all sensibly with issues of sexual politics at either the personal or public level.
I think this time we are in is still a transition period.
I do think abortion must stay safe and legal while understanding it opens a series of very difficult public issues. I think it has to stay a decision between a woman and her doctor.
I do think Mr Perry is muddying a very serious issue with a kind of attitude which is a throwback to paternalistic ignorance of women in general. We don’t need his horsepunky in this already tough mix. I think he should sit down and shut up.
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By: alaskapi on January 29, 2011
at 10:13 AM
I had placed this*
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By: Noah on January 29, 2011
at 9:45 AM
By the way, for those of you who have asked for months why I stay, the above is a perfect example of why. I would have continued to live on had I not been on this board not knowing that people think as many of you about a child late in the pregnancy. It is something that I have held as a truth for so long I had not considered someone might feel so completely different. It had placed this in the fundamental truth category as so obviously true it didn’t need to be discussed.
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By: Noah on January 29, 2011
at 9:43 AM
I ask my questions with complete innocence and no agenda. I have accepted as an intellectual truth that life inside the mother is no different than outside, it’s just a difference in geography. Now I understand the debate on when is the child aware of anything and can be truly called “alive” but I truly never new there were people that considered that even in the 9th month of pregnancy that felt that wasn’t a being worthy of every right and consideration of that of a child that has already been born.
I cannot conceive any logical argument that can support the idea that a child is so completely different when it is inside the mother vs outside. My understanding is that at 6th months everything that the child is to be is in place and functioning. If brought outside the mother at this time it can survive, yet if it were to remain inside the mother many of you believe it has no rights. Is it really an issue of geography? Or would the mother be free to end the life of a child born in its 6th month anytime until its 9th month? I am trying to wrap my mind around the idea what this marvelous metamorphoses is that many of you think occurs when this child passes from inside to outside the mother where its rights are suddenly realized.
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By: Noah on January 29, 2011
at 9:36 AM
Good post, Donna.
I think Noah has been treated unfairly, and some on the other side have been too. No one here has the power to compel another to change beliefs or actions. No one here with a contrary view is a threat to another. The abortion question is as inconsistant and complex as life.
For example, we are taught that killing another person is a mortal sin. And yet, killing in some cases is acceptable, even commendable.
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By: James on January 29, 2011
at 8:53 AM
I think that we can and should recognize that there are inconsistencies in the way the law and society respond to the issue of “rights” in the context of a pregnant woman.
1. States are permitted to prosecute/restrain women for endangering the health/lives of unborn children (I use the term deliberately) by cocaine use, excessive drinking, etc. The laws relating to child abuse/neglect are extended to apply under certain circumstances to protect a child who has not yet been born–sometimes expressly in a statute, sometimes in practice without formal amendment. In those states, women who are pregnant and shown to drink or take drugs can be civilly committed to prevent them from doing so.
2. Employers are not permitted to adopt policies that could prevent pregnant women from working around hazardous materials because that is considered discrimination against women. This was the famous Johnson Controls case that went to the U.S. Supreme Court.
Can you reconcile the two? It is child abuse/neglect to drink or take drugs while you are pregnant and the state can step in to protect a child that is not yet born. However, exposing a child to–for example–lead used in manufacturing batteries at a work place can’t be prevented by an employer.
I, for one, cannot reconcile from a philosophical standpoint the notion that (a) I abuse an actual child if I drink or take cocaine while I am pregnant, yet (b) I do not kill an actual child if I have an abortion. However, society draws those distinctions and there are a whole range of social, moral, and pragmatic judgments that come into play when lawmakers and courts draw those lines. There is a balancing that goes on among the interests of a child that is not yet born, the interests of society, and the interests of the pregnant woman. And that balancing means that it is unavoidable that there will be inconsistencies–the same people who advocate for the government to protect a fetus from being harmed by cocaine would doubtless vehemently object to the government trying to make sure that pregnant women eat healthfully and don’t smoke.
I have the right to decide–as I have–that I could not justify terminating a pregnancy. [However, I truly cannot say what I would do were I faced with one of the “end of the spectrum” horrible situations involving a threat to my life or a child with such terrible medical problems that to proceed to give birth would be more cruel than to not do so. I haven’t been faced with that decision and, until one is, I don’t know that you can actually say what your response would be.]
However, I also understand that it is a terribly complicated issue and not one that lends itself to easy answers. My religion plays a big role in my personal choice not to terminate a pregnancy, but my religion isn’t shared by everyone. The fact that I have a stable and financially secure life doubtless influences my personal choice, but many women do not have lives that are either stable or financially secure. I am physically healthy and (I think) well adjusted, many women are neither. I have a loving and supportive spouse, many women do not.
I think we do ourselves and others a disservice when we do not acknowledge how complicated the issue is or when we attack others for not sharing our viewpoints. I can’t think of a more difficult issue with which to wrestle.
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By: Donna on January 29, 2011
at 8:21 AM
Wow Noah. You really are clueless. TravEl answers that question and many others. You just don’t want to listen. She did do very well and very respectfully. You are now coming off as the real fool.
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By: Trace on January 29, 2011
at 7:57 AM
I am still curious, for those that feel an unborn child has no rights, do you also feel that a child 5 minutes from being born is vastly different than a child 5 minutes after being born?
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By: Noah on January 29, 2011
at 7:49 AM
TravEl you have gone from being purposeful ignorant to total falsehoods misrepresenting what I’ve said to serve your own ends. You seem very well versed on your thoughts but show a complete inability to discuss any point of view but your own. You dismiss any beliefs that do not fall in line with yours as wrong then like a proud little peacock go on to talk about how great you and your beliefs are. Again I get better conversation out of a wall. Lets agree to disagree and move on. As always the last word is yours.
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By: Noah on January 29, 2011
at 7:47 AM
Anyone ever notice that the pro-lifers never suggest limiting the reproductive rights of men?
Imagine how Rick Perry would like the government regulating what he can and can’t do with his crotch.
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By: Pro-Choice Guy on January 29, 2011
at 7:43 AM
I already explained the thought processes which made me pro choice. This is another question which doesn’t change what I believe. Mark Rosen at the University of California at San Francisco wrote that pain receptors develop before the brain can react. Then, he said the fetus may feel pain at the second trimester, but the brain is probably not developed enough to feel it at an emotional level.
He also said the fetus should be anesthatised if it needs “procedures” to prevent stress. Does that mean parts of the body “feel” and react though the brain is only dimly aware of what is going on?
Can that state apply to the born? I remember the oncoming wreck on a bridge. I thought in effect the same line Charlie Sheen has used on Two and a Half Men. “I have a bad feeling about this.” “Should I try this or should I try that?”
The next thing I remember was “Why am I parked here?” Everything was fuzzy, and I wondered “What’s in my mouth?” I reached up and discovered teeth and parts of teeth. Pain can be delayed a bit after injury, but this was different. I had been asleep for awhile, and yet, I didn’t feel much at first. My heart was racing and beating irregularly, and in my twilight state, I couldn’t understand why. I don’t remember much after that.
Was my body feeling pain the same way a fetus might without engaging the brain? My cousin was a quadraplegic for about 36 years after an auto accident. She could only move one finger, but her arms and legs moved spasmatically. Do people with head and spine injuries feel and react at some level without the brain’s getting the message?
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By: James on January 29, 2011
at 7:40 AM
Thank heavens there are still people in the US that can think for themselves. I enjoy reading your blog and check it nearly every day to see what your latest thoughts are.
Please keep writing. There are a number of people out there that would benefit from reading yours blog.
Thank you.
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By: Geoff on January 29, 2011
at 2:07 AM
TravEl I have been reading this all evening. You are an amazing – I assume – attorney. Brilliant case.
You will find – although I suspect you already know – that Noah and “Tex Akexander” like to argue for the sake of argument. They never really do make much of a point so most of us just ignore them. Makes them even crankier by the way.
I have no doubt that Noah will now comment about my comment and maybe even knight me into the Order of the Sheep.
You will find I will simply ignore him. I strongly suggest you do the same. Afterall, it’s not very nice to pick on the disabled and I assure you that he is.
Again. Brilliant. My hat is off to you. Don’t go into politics. Look what they dis to a Harvard man who tried to help them. Sad really because we really could use thinkers right now. Regan built the coffin and Palin nailed it shut.
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By: Trace on January 29, 2011
at 1:49 AM
And yes. I am keenly aware of my typos. God I love this phone. Really I do. 🙂
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By: TravEl on January 29, 2011
at 1:40 AM
Oh Noah , you poor thing. Everything you need to know you learned in kindergarten.
It doesn’t matter how badly you want to be right. Wanting to be right doesn’t make your argument any stronger.
You have told us how you “feel” and that is all you have done. You then proceeded to criticize everyone who expressed their ” feelings” because according to you, you wanted them to state the facts and make their case. The whole sheep thing is pretty lame.
So I come along and give you exactly what you asked for. I give you facts. Bit because you “feel” you are right even the facts won’t be enough.
As it is with most people like you, you critize in others exactly what you don’t seem to see in yourself.
Welcome to the sheep club. You’ll find based in your admission policy that there are many sheep in here who don’t agree with you.
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By: TravEl on January 29, 2011
at 1:37 AM
Well said ben..articulate, right to the point, well thought out, substantive, everything we have come to expect from the sheep club, welcome,
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By: Noah on January 29, 2011
at 1:23 AM
Nope. Alive and well and still commenting without actually thinking.
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By: Ben on January 29, 2011
at 1:22 AM
Ding ding the witch is dead…
Let’s hope he stays that way.
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By: Ben on January 29, 2011
at 1:20 AM
TravEl, you’ve discussed nothing, you informed me i was wrong, that was the total depth of your argument, telling me i was wrong, then informed me why you were right. That in my opinion is a one sided conversation I could have with the wall.
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By: Noah on January 29, 2011
at 1:18 AM
No one’s puppet, thus the sheep club you belong too where new ideas…even different ways of thinking are discouraged and attacked by your kind. Be limited, do as your told, your government has everything under control. Best of luck with that.
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By: Noah on January 29, 2011
at 1:16 AM
Noah, you are really the reason I dislike the Reoublican party right now. No great thinkers. Just boys with toys who don’t want to play nice in the sandbox.
Justice must be blind but it takes a true thinker to understand why. The Democrats are losing the poltical debate now because you can’t debate irrational thought. As long as the R’s play to the ignorant, our government will remain broken and useless.
And I say this as someone who used to vote consistently with the Reoublican Party. Too bad Regan destroyed the party by making the R stand for religion. Funny how he actually did what most feared Kennedy would do but didn’t. Regan put church before State and we are still dealing with the fallout. He was very clever though. He wrapped an American Flag around it first just like Perry is wrapping a Texas flag around it now.
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By: TravEl on January 29, 2011
at 1:16 AM
Finally someone got through to you. You live in La La Land by yourself, the rest of live in the real world, namely the United States of America and we abide by the laws of this country. Game over!
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By: No one's puppet on January 29, 2011
at 1:07 AM
Oh, you are good! Thank goodness for your fine mind and your writing–rich and expressive and cogent. Again, thank you, thank you, thank you.
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By: Caitlin Victoria Featherstone on January 29, 2011
at 1:04 AM
yes i understand. you cant get past the letter of the law. the law puts blinders on that does not allow you to see any other point of view…understood and playing by those rules you win automatically..congrats.
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By: Noah on January 29, 2011
at 12:45 AM
BTW you can and should apply that same logic to gay marriage. These two issues are so divisive because we have allowed religion to get in bed with politics. That is a very, very bad thing for Democracy. The founding fathers knew it. It brings out entire pitical system to it’s knees. Imagine how less divided we would be if these two issues were removed from politics.
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By: TravEl on January 29, 2011
at 12:30 AM
Damn IPhone. I just can’t live without you.
Noah, I gave you the legal reason which is enough. You can make a moral case to challenge that but unfortunately Hrlen made a moral case as well. Who is to say your morals ( or Perry’s morals) are more moral than Helen’s. That my friend is exactly why we have a separation of church and state. Some religions think abortion is a sin. Other religions do not. All morals equal, the law of the land wins.
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By: TravEl on January 29, 2011
at 12:26 AM
Noah. Besides proving my pint about you dodging the larger issue you also failed to make a case at all. It’s the law. That is the answer to your question. Challenge the law if you want but putting up roadblocks for a woman to exercise her constitutional rights – a roadblock aimed only at women mind you – is nit challenging the law it’s picking on the law abiding citizen. It is no different than the South putting up roadblocks for civil rights to blacks. The law that a woman has the right to an abortion has not been successfully overturned even after years of appeals. Perry is being an obstructionist. A woman has the right. Perry has no right to decide one Women’sreasom for exercising that right has more merit over another woman’s reason. It’s akin to not liking the 70 mile an hour speed limit on the interstates in Texas so Perry decides to put in speedbumps.
I have the right to an abortion if I so choose. I DON’T have to justify my reason for exercising that right and you don’t have the right to do things to coerce me into not exercising that right. Again, no different than making it difficult for someone to get to a voting booth because you don’t think you will like how they vote.
Noah, simply put, no matter how hard you try to explain it, no matter how many times you comment your argument is not valid. I am giving you the non- emotional and non- religious based reasons and Helen did an excellent job of giving you the emotional, moral and reality-based reasons. You have the answer, you just don’t like it. You are no different than Perry.
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By: TravEl on January 29, 2011
at 12:19 AM
I have done my research….again and I hate to point out the obvious but this is the arena of ideas and discussion. Not just on how things are but how we would like them to be. To hold true to the conclusions you claim we would have to say that the child inside the womb 5 minutes before birth is vastly different than the one 5 minutes after birth and I do not believe this to be the case.
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By: Noah on January 28, 2011
at 11:43 PM
Thank you, Helen; you go, girl!
I remember when abortions were illegal; I had a friend almost die from one. She couldn’t get a legal abortion from a real doctor. If abortion becomes illegal again, people don’t realize it won’t stop abortions…it will just drive them underground as in the past, and more women and girls will die.
And those of you who are enraged at the thought of a doctor giving a woman a late-term abortion: Did you know that there are actually some doctors who will tell a woman, “It doesn’t matter that your baby died. It’s your duty to carry your dead baby the full nine months.” How’s that for torture? Any religion that would condone that attitude should be erased from the earth.
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By: NMJ on January 28, 2011
at 11:41 PM
zooey and all,,,,,,, looks like poor Noah is really cranked up now! true colors! LOL probably be up all night thinking how to be even more ignorant!
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By: cryptoclearance on January 28, 2011
at 11:33 PM
Damn this IPhone. Why do I love it do much!
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By: TravEl on January 28, 2011
at 10:40 PM
Noah. I read your comments. You usually puck on line out of the post or comment you reference and then isolate it and use your response to dodge the original thought.
If you did your research, you would know that our highest court has determined that the fetus infant does not have these rights you thunk need to be protected. If we follow your argument to it’s logical inclusion anyone in the world who was concieved in the US is automatically a US citizen. Therefore anyone born approximately 9 months after their mother visited the United States regardless of her residency status could claim US citizenship. The line must be drawn somewhere and the courts have defined that line. That is the way our legal system works.
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By: TravEl on January 28, 2011
at 10:37 PM
Tex, cowboy, Jackson, whoever you are this time. I have never known this board to bann anyone but if in fact you have been banned several times maybe you should respect the wishes of our host and leave. I am sure she has her reasons for wanting you gone and clearly based on the myriad of opinions posted it is not simy because you disagree with her.
Realize you are not wanted and move on. To stay is pretty pathetic don’t you think?
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By: TravEl on January 28, 2011
at 10:29 PM
Sorry for the typos. I hate and love my iPhone.
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By: TravEl on January 28, 2011
at 10:25 PM
TravEl sorry you haven’t kept up on all my posts. Otherwise you would have realized I don’t believe that it is an issue of ignorance on the part of the mother. I believe it is more an issue of no one taking up the defense of a child you cannot speak for itself. Someone has to be the advocate for the child to try and defend its rights.
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By: Noah on January 28, 2011
at 10:25 PM
Noah, they don’t call it “the miracle of childbirth” for nothing.
I find it ridiculous that some of you think that a woman choosing to have an abortion is so stupid that she doesn’t realize she has other options. Keeping a baby or giving it up for adoption are not secrets. This law of Perry’s is suggesting exactly that. The law suggests women are too stupid to make the decision for themselves.
Some women consider all the facts and choose abortion. Perry makes no secret about his desire to have abortions banned entirely. Get fooling yourself.
And for the record, there is no such thing as “an abortion” for convenience. Not wanting to bring a life I to this world is as noble a decision ad choosing to become a parent. Both better our society and you “Christians” out there should know that many great religious minds – like St. Thomas Aquinas – have asserted that notion. Look up a book called Sacred Choices. When and if you do check out the bio on the author.
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By: TravEl on January 28, 2011
at 10:22 PM
lol cryptoclearance , that little comment drove you right over the edge..i can see you a month from now going insane over it. amazing how nutty the far left can be.
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By: Noah on January 28, 2011
at 10:13 PM
crypto, we need to take back the word “liberal,” and I am determined to do so!
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By: Zooey on January 28, 2011
at 10:01 PM
zooey- we are both Equids!
ohhhh and “typical” liberals. LOL . LOL a dirty word. he is a clueless egomaniac with nothing better to do but post more bullshit on a “liberal” blog! what a joke!
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By: cryptoclearance on January 28, 2011
at 9:40 PM
No worries, cryptoclearance. Noah doesn’t even rate on the Zookeeper scale of relevance. Certainly the good liberal men at the Zoo don’t think this way. It’s quite refreshing, actually.
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By: Zooey on January 28, 2011
at 9:22 PM
zooey: don’t take it seriously…..from a “guy” who stated that he would “give” his poor wife 60% of the decsision GIVE. Like he owns her. talk about disturbed. Do most males think this way? Why should we be disturbed or even surprised? Egomaniacs taking over the great blog of M&H.
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By: cryptoclearance on January 28, 2011
at 9:18 PM
Another one knocked right out of the park, Helen. Thank you. Life experience is a big plus in this area.
The disturbing thing to me regarding Noah, is that his wife seems completely left out of the equation. HE saw the sonogram, HE would never choose abortion, HE takes care of his children.
Commendable, of course, but he seems to be making all the choices in that family. That smacks of tyranny, not a partnership.
Keep up the good work, Helen & Margaret. We need your wisdom.
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By: Zooey on January 28, 2011
at 9:03 PM
Noah, who said I was a liberal? This is my first comment here after reading for awhile. You just made a huge assumption about me. I’m actually moderate. I am pro-GLBT, pro-choice, yet I advocate personal responsibility and I think global warming/climate change/term du jour is complete BS. So there.
Evidently Helen’s making you a subject of her post still isn’t enough for you. That’s how trolls roll, baby: they always want more more more attention.
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By: Kieron on January 28, 2011
at 8:52 PM
fiona64, my post about whether or not a fetus feels pain had nothing to do with abortion, so the possible ability to feel pain around twenty weeks as it relates to abortion was irrelavant. I was discussing it on its own merits.
What I’d really like to know is what happened to my brain the afternoon it swelled enough to affect my eyes and made my left side fairly numb? It was after an auto accident which knocked me out for awhile. I seem to be fine, so I’m not willing to waste the time for any invasive scans.
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By: James on January 28, 2011
at 8:23 PM
Sorry about the lack of citations fiona64.
No, I don’t believe “Silent Scream” is true. However, I have seen a young woman who claimed to have been aborted and survived. A doctor in Philadelphia was charged with killing surviving late term aborted babies with scissors, etc.
I cited no studies because I had none to cite. I was writing from memory. We subscribe to Discover Magazine so I googled it and found an article posted on line on December 1,2005. Mark Rosen of the University of California at San Francisco wrote that a fetus starts forming pain receptors eight weeks into development, but the thalamus doesn’t develop enough for information to reach the cortex for twenty more weeks. Rosen believes though pain receptors exist and the fetus appears to suffer pain when researchers “poke” it the brain can’t consciously “feel” it.
I saw something like that on television and the fetus appeared to cringe.
Rosen, however believes the wiring to send the pain message to the brain is not completed sufficiently to let the brain actually receive the message on an emotional level. ” It is possible that brain during the second trimester allows it to sense pain. But Rosen and his collegues believe a fetus’s brain doesn’t function coherently enough to be conscious.”
So, he seems to be saying the fetus has equipment to sense pain, but its brain isn’t developed enough to feel it on a conscious level. He also said it is wise to anesthitize the fetus if procedures create undue stress but not for an abortion. I suppose that is to avoid risk to the mother.
M. Fitzgerald reported in “Neurobiology of Fetal and Neonatal Pain” (1994) that the fetus responds to stimuli as early as 7.5 weeks. The legs and rest of the body become sensitive at 13 weeks.
I’m not arguing with you, because I think you wrote that you are a doctor. My interpretation of these and other articles is that we are both right. At one level a fetus feels stimulus, but the message isn’t able to reach the brain, and if it does, the brain isn’t developed enough to react to the pain at an emotional level. What do you think?
I hope this amuses you. We attended a Doc Severison concert before our son was born. Every time Doc hit the high notes, my wife said our son began kicking like crazy.
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By: James on January 28, 2011
at 7:59 PM
Kieron= the typical liberal response…your place in club sheep is safe
raatrani the my baby my choice was my stalker..not I.
As for the special case. My reference to that was is that we don’t legislate and make laws based on special cases but rather as to what is the norm. Fortunately we live in a day and age where Michelle’s case is not the norm. Lets continue to make laws for what is the norm and discuss special provisions for just that, special circumstances. To many use the uncommon event as an example to make sweeping changes to public policy and i am opposed to that.
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By: Noah on January 28, 2011
at 6:50 PM
Noah is still here peckering away at the keyboard? Man, your wife is going to feel neglected and may well ask the paper-boy or the Fed-Ex delivery man to attend the birth in your place, at this rate. Jeez, man, get a life.
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By: Kieron on January 28, 2011
at 6:38 PM
Cybil, I agree with you. I scrolled through so many comments. There’s a good article in Mother Jones about the anti-abortion Republicans in the House are trying to pass. It’s not nice: http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/republican-plan-redefine-rape-abortion
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By: laingirl on January 28, 2011
at 6:29 PM
It’s too bad Jackson’s mother didn’t have an abortion. This blog needs to be moderated to remove lengthy rants that purport to be based on facts when they aren’t. What a waste of everyone’s time.
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By: Cybil on January 28, 2011
at 5:51 PM
Ohhhh, Noah…
“My baby. My choice. Period.”
My irony meter just broke.
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By: raatrani on January 28, 2011
at 5:23 PM
I’ve only read up on comments made thru yesterday, so please forgive if I repeat something someone else already said, but here’s my thought:
For one, if the Real Noah is indeed posting now, it seems to me that the only real “sin” he committed was speaking before he thought for a moment about the sensitivity of his opinion. Yeah, said something which (unintentionally, I hope) came out sounding like he was a pompous douchebag. He got nailed for it, and rightly so.
But from the recent comments he’s made, continuing to speak to him as if he’s slime is unfair – he honestly, if carelessly, offered his opinion, and he has the integrity to admit that there are special cases for which he’d consider amending that opinion.
Having said that in your defense, Noah, and having said it for the sake of fairness, there is one important point which I think needs to be made, and which you need to seriously consider.
You’re willing to admit that in cases like Michelle’s, abortion was the right choice – and good for you for being self-aware enough to explicitly say so. However, you also said that we shouldn’t broad-brush the issue based on “one-off” cases like that.
What you don’t seem to comprehend is that her situation is by no means unique – there are thousands upon thousands of stories just like hers and her wife’s, where loved, wanted children were doomed from the start, and the only healthy decision the affected parties could make, for themselves, was to abort.
So if her story is one in which you’d reconsider your stance, doesn’t it stand to reason that you would shift for those other heartbreaking stories too? And shouldn’t we all, for the sake of those stories, err on the side of compassion and privacy in grief?
Shouldn’t we uphold the sovereignty of each individual to make their own decisions about what is best for them – especially when that decision does nothing to harm you, except maybe make you sad for the loss comprehended in that choice? For that reason alone, I would hope that maybe you’d consider to take a pro-Choice stance publicly, while privately remaining pro-life.
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By: raatrani on January 28, 2011
at 5:00 PM
Pfesser wrote: As are young women with round heels. That doesn’t mean we should uphold either in their folly.
Fascinating. According to the Guttmacher Institute, the majority of abortions are performed on married women with one or more children (61%, in fact). So much for the “young women with round heels” meme …
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
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By: fiona64 on January 28, 2011
at 4:21 PM
James wrote: According to medical studies fetuses may feel some pain as early as 13 weeks and certainly by 20 weeks
Couple of problems with your statement here, James. You didn’t cite your studies, but that’s okay. At 13 weeks’ gestation, the myelin sheath (which is necessary for pain to be felt) is not in place — in fact, it doesn’t even begin developing until 14 weeks. At 20 weeks, abortion on demand is a moot point; it doesn’t happen absent medical necessity.
Which brings me to the second problem with your statement.
Anesthesia is *systemic.* That means that when the pregnant woman is anesthetized … so is the fetus.
“The Silent Scream” is a fake, James. Just so you know.
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By: fiona64 on January 28, 2011
at 4:14 PM
Yes, Noah. Its just a guess, but liberals probably feel the same at the Rutherford blog.
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By: James on January 28, 2011
at 3:59 PM
You’re welcome OceanGypsi.
From the image they have presented , I like both Noah and Delurkergurl. It must be my head injury.
Rutherford, I’m glad you weren’t aborted also.
You say you operate your own struggling business. Congratulations! The struggle is the fun.
Mikat, I’ve forgotten. Were you the one who was going to try my mother’s sugar cookie recipe a earlier this winter? I remember someone said she might try them, but I’ve forgotten who.
Brick walls can come down.
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By: James on January 28, 2011
at 3:54 PM
Mikat said: The nasty, name calling, shouting from Tex and his merry band of liberty haters is not a debate.
You mean like the liberals do on this board to people like me?
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By: Noah on January 28, 2011
at 3:26 PM
Katrina in Ohio I am actually Pro Choice. I am Pro Life for myself and my family. I do not feel the government has a place in this argument. My goal is to try and engage others in backing up their choice with substantive commentary that shows why they believe what they believe. Unfortunately with a few exceptions most only say what they believe but have no idea why they believe it.
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By: Noah on January 28, 2011
at 3:24 PM
Hi Ocean! Very nice to see you back on M&H. Glad to hear your nephew is back. Time and counseling will heal most of it. We are in for a long, long battle to get all vets proper healthcare after they return.
Come see us in the kitchen.
Rutherford,
I have been to your blog. It could be very good, but you let the repugs take over. I can tell you with out a doubt the reason no liberal sticks around is that there is NO debate. A debate is a chosen subject dicussed by opposing sides based on FACTS. The nasty, name calling, shouting from Tex and his merry band of liberty haters is not a debate. Liberals are smart enough to know a brick wall is solid. A shouting match does not a debate make. When the mouth is open the ears are shut!
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By: Mikat on January 28, 2011
at 2:43 PM
delurkergirl, good to see you, too!! Thank you. You are very sweet.
Thank you, too, James.
HAPPY FRIDAY, everyone!! It’s BEAUTIFUL here!!!
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By: OceanGypsi on January 28, 2011
at 1:42 PM
Yes, Rutherford, blog dynamics can be interesting.
On another, a group of liberals and I became friends. We have met each other in person. One man, a writer who had a contract with his former boss had me write national weather guesses for a farmers almanac. The non -paying job lasted for three years. One from the Philippines, sent me a movie from there.
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By: James on January 28, 2011
at 1:32 PM
Noah, you have every right to be pro-life. That’s great. But just because YOU are doesn’t mean everyone HAS to be. The sad fact is…if abortion were illegal you’d have a drastic rise in tragedies. You’d have more dumpster babies and deaths via child abuse. You see it all the time now. Can you imagine how many more you’d see if the woman had no choice? I’d love to live in a society where every human life was treasured. But we don’t. We have murderers, abusers, crack heads, etc. And frankly, I’d much rather see a fetus aborted than to see a breathing infants life snuffed out in a bowl of toilet water at the local BP or suffocated in a trash bag in the dumpster behind a restaurant or bar.
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By: Katrina in Ohio on January 28, 2011
at 1:27 PM
Fair enough, Alive and Well. I think blogging dynamics is kinda funny. Here I find a progressive blog where many agree and where dissenters, depending on their tone, get ripped to shreds.
I’ve been running a progressive blog for more than three years that is almost exclusively commented on by “the opposition”. The rare liberal who visits there, puts up a fight for a bit but soon disappears. In fact if you were to ignore my articles and just read the comments (skipping mine of course) you’d think you’d arrived at a conservative blog. So maybe this environment of “enthusiastic” liberals is a bit foreign to me. I’m used to pretty much going it alone with the flamers being GOPhers. Here, the flame throwing goes both ways.
As I said, blogging dynamics can be quite interesting. 🙂
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By: Rutherford on January 28, 2011
at 1:16 PM
Rutherford: “I sense from some of your comments that unless someone agrees with you, you have no use for them. Am I too harsh in this assessment?”
Indeed you are absolutely incorrect in your assumptions.
I believe debate is a wonderful thing. Neutrally moderated debate forums where rules and regulations apply are the best places and the best manner in which to conduct a fair and balanced educational debate on the internet. Arriving at a blog and starting out by making comments categorically condemning the author of the blog to burn in hell and declaring that all of the blog’s followers are evil sheep isn’t conducive to fair, balanced and informative debate. This is not a debate forum. This is a progressive liberal blog. Come here to learn some of what left-leaning America is thinking, feeling and talking about today. This is our playground. This is our nightclub. This is where we come to shout WOO-HOO, vent a little, raise a little hell and have our voices heard. I don’t go to Catholic blogs and rip the author a new hole for their beliefs or for Catholicism’s sexual victimization of innocent children. This blog here is where I go to cry foul.
I am always open to new information, new ideas and the opinions of others. Having come from an ethnically and religiously diverse background, I have already heard most, if not all, of the tired old arguments the extreme religious right have been making for a seeming eternity. I’ve been on this planet for more than a few decades now, and during my time here I’ve gotten myself a first rate education which subsequently led to an ongoing and highly successful career. Life has been an excellent teacher, and I have continued my formal education throughout the years as well.
I perk up my ears whenever I hear something new, and if and when I feel there is a legitimate opportunity to exchange ideas and challenge others in an intelligent, civil dialogue, I’m willing to do it. No one with views radically opposing my own who has shown up at this blog so far has convinced me that they are truly interested in any knowledge I may have to share with them. People who come here generally do so with their opinions already formed. They’ve already had access to the same information I have had access to, and they have already heard others express the same opinions which I hold. People arrive here prepared to stand with progressive liberalism and social democracy, or they come ready to hurl insults and stir up a fight. Those falling into the latter group have already rejected everything I believe in and stand for. They come to battle, not debate. I have nothing new to offer people like that except my pity and/or disdain. I highly doubt anything I could offer in a formal debate on the topic of abortion, aside from my own personal experiences, would be anything new, extraordinary or above and beyond the latest published and readily available scientific data. I see no point, therefore, in participating in a formal debate on this topic when I have nothing new to add.
Many people have commented here with opinions which do not match my own. Their views on certain aspects of the issue of abortion differ from my own to varying degrees. Most of these people have stated their opinons in fairly non-inflammatory ways, and they have gone on to explain their rationale behind the beliefs and ideas which they have expressed. I have not taken issue with any of these people. I find their comments thoughtful and informative. I retain what I read for further thought and processing. Their ideas, if presented well, could very well have some level of influence one way or another on my own system of belief.
t is only a certain few commenters here whose tenacious rudeness and trolling ways have sparked my ire. I am not afraid to express my disgust with such people because they aren’t the kind who want to learn from an exchange of ideas with me or with anyone else. They come here to condemn, to shout over top of everyone else, to stir up trouble, and to bait others into sinking to new and demeaning levels of pseudo-debate.
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By: Alive and Well on January 28, 2011
at 12:51 PM
If making abortion illegal eliminated all reasons for abortion I would be the first to make it illegal. But it won’t.
I grew up in South Florida before abortion was legal. A knitting needle or wire coat hanger was a desperate teenager’s solution if she didn’t know where else to go. The older women found a day trip to Cuba’s back alleys a solution until Castro ended it. My mother was a nurse and one who would help a woman who had complications from abortion find a doctor who would treat them without reporting it. So I do know some of the horrors that took place and we CAN NOT go back to those good ole days. Women didn’t opt for abortions just because it became legal.
I believe the pill and other contraceptives came about because women yelled HELP ME very loudly. I have yet to hear any man here or elsewhere yell HELP ME be a responsible lover and prevent me from impregnating my partner and causing an unwanted pregnancy. But they yelled HELP ME when they couldn’t get IT up and keep IT up. And now there are pills to SUPER-SIZE IT according to the emails I get. (I don’t think it really works but no telling what a desperate man will do.)
I believe it was in the 70’s they came up with a birth control pill for men. However one side affect was if he drank alcohol his eyes became very bloodshot. A big turnoff in the bar scene I guess; no one should mock him for shooting blanks. That seemed to end the idea for a birth control pill for men. No further research to find a solution to that problem.
I listened to a man give his view of abortion, birth control, sex education etc. Abstinence was the answer for his daughters and women. Well if you do any family history you will find if abstinence worked most of us would not be here. He then went on about religion. I began to feel it wasn’t really about abortion being wrong but that WHITE CHRISTIAN babies were being aborted. And a concern that those BROWN NON-CHRISTIAN people were reproducing faster and one day outnumber him.
If abortion were to become illegal again there will still be women seeking to end a pregnancy. If they are discovered will they be charged with a misdemeanor or murder? Will it be life in prison or the death penalty? Will the suicide rate spike among women? Be careful where you are going with this! It could be your daughter, sister, mother or wife. Or you.
And of course without a fetus to determine who else is responsible it will only be the woman who pays the price.
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By: Cynthia on January 28, 2011
at 12:12 PM
anyways enough distractions from the extreme left wing…when ya cant competently back your beliefs ya muddy the waters with trivial bits of you hurt my delicate feelings drivel.
End of the day I feel we need to have someone speak for the unborn child since it cant speak for itself. People champion the causes of animals and endangered species yet so many feel a child inside the women isn’t due any at all. I pride myself on being able to at least see where another point of view is coming from even if I cant agree with it, but in this case it makes no sense at all. We pass laws to see cattle is humanly slaughtered but on here a child is believed to need no representation. I just do not get it.
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By: Noah on January 28, 2011
at 10:57 AM
Alive and Well, I’m a bit curious … what do you believe to be a good by-product or end-product of debate? Surely you know that in 99% of debates, no matter how civil, minds are seldom changed. I would suggest the point of debate is really just to get views aired and to understand each other better, without necessarily agreeing.
I sense from some of your comments that unless someone agrees with you, you have no use for them. Am I too harsh in this assessment?
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By: Rutherford on January 28, 2011
at 10:48 AM
That is probably the greatest factor keeping me here in the SW, vgman. I like snow, as long as I don’t have to deal with it. 😉 I would prefer a month of 120 degree heat and sunshine over any temps 32 and below for the same stretch. Brrrrrrr.
I do enjoy the crackle of the fire, the hot chocolate and homemade soup. I like the look of the land covered in a glistening white frost blanket, pristine and clear. How it makes even the ugliest of neighborhoods appear beautiful and fresh; the first walk through the silent landscape as my muffled steps reestablish the remembered path; the clear taste of the pure atmosphere filling my lungs and envigorating my spirit; breathing in newness of life, energizing my soul…
But the drudgery and sludge, the slipping, the biting wind, all remain fixed – frozen if you will – in my memory. That overshadows any desire to flee north. Besides, I am trying to follow where the Spirit leads. At this juncture I am to stay put. I do know however, not to say never. I don’t know what the new day will bring.
Thank you, delurkergurl. You confirm to me what I have been given from others. You are a true friend and kindred spirit.
May all who come through here today be blessed, no matter on what side of the tracks you find yourself. If you see the light, be certain it isn’t the oncoming train. 😀
Peace. Shalom. Salaam.
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By: poolman on January 28, 2011
at 10:48 AM
delurkergurl you never showed me respect not once. you belittle and name call and personally attack me then cry foul when I return in kind..you get what you give kid.
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By: Noah on January 28, 2011
at 10:46 AM
Oh boy! Quotes! I love quotes!
On personal responsiblity: “The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. Herbert Spencer English philosopher (1820 – 1903)”
“Young men with bad manners are a dime a dozen. ”
As are young women with round heels. That doesn’t mean we should uphold either in their folly.
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By: PFesser on January 28, 2011
at 10:43 AM
I wanted to comment on something J O’C said earlier in this thread. I fully understand why you feel choice is important. I also think you make a very good point that pro-choice simply means just that … choice … it is not pro-death or pro-abortion.
Here is my only problem. The doctors who told you your son would basically amount to nothing were WRONG. Think about what your life would be like without your son because you acted on the gloom and doom of your doctors.
To my mind this is why abortion should be the very last resort alternative. In the case of so called “defective babies” doctors can be wrong. Every child deserves a shot at life. If your own life, J O’C had been in danger then that’s a very different scenario.
So I guess what I am getting at is that in this instance, I think you would agree that you made the right choice, and that based only on the pessimistic prognosis of your doctors, abortion would have been the wrong choice.
P.S. Just for full disclosure, I am physically disabled myself and could easily have been aborted back in 1961. Fortunately, I wasn’t … I went on to graduate from Harvard University, and spend a good 25 years with a great career in corporate America. (LOL currently a struggling owner of my own business.)
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By: Rutherford on January 28, 2011
at 10:42 AM
” Life, with all its tragedies and joys, has a way of eventually teaching even the most foolhardy and stubborn miscreant to stop and reevaluate everything he ever thought he knew to be true.”
I think Craig would agree with this.
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By: delurkergurl on January 28, 2011
at 10:25 AM
Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote, “Controversy equalizes fools and wise men – and the fools know it.”
Jackson and Noah may think they are great debaters, but in reality they are merely arguers. This is why I refuse to engage them or anyone like them in so-called debate. They stand tall, proud and judgemental with their chests puffed out, ready to shout down anyone who doesn’t buy into their holier-than-thou version of so-called morality. They’re like roosters in a cockfight, and they’re in it for blood and victory at any cost. Their ideas are lodged in their neural pathways like deep, tragically hideous cigarette burns scarring the top of a fine Hepplewhite table. They can’t be reasoned with any more than anyone could stop Sarah Palin from arguing with a signpost. These are the kind of people who, if their noses were on upside down, would drown in the rain — because surely it must be God’s will.
Young men with bad manners are a dime a dozen. All I can do is laugh with pity whenever I encounter such an ego-and-testosterone-driven young whippersnapper who’s been told by his preacher that he’s got the world and his woman by the tail. A guy like this can sometimes be mellowed by time and the school of hard knocks. Life, with all its tragedies and joys, has a way of eventually teaching even the most foolhardy and stubborn miscreant to stop and reevaluate everything he ever thought he knew to be true. A quicker way might be swift castration followed by a couple of years’ worth of estrogen injections, but it’s not very nice to steal the balls from a boy who’s out swinging his bat on a Sunday afternoon. Changing the game by telling a guy he’ll soon get to play with his own titties is a little too rude, and in the end it really is best just to let the vagaries of life knock some sorely needed humility and sense into an otherwise over-inflated ego.
Perhaps Marcus Tullius Cicero said it best when he wrote, “Wise men are instructed by reason; men of less understanding, by experience; the most ignorant, by necessity; the beasts, by nature.”
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By: Alive and Well on January 28, 2011
at 10:18 AM
Noah just proved my point, don’t you think? 😀
Have a nice weekend everyone. 🙂
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By: delurkergurl on January 28, 2011
at 10:05 AM
btw respect gets respect. James and Prof completely disagree with me, yet we are able to argue back and forth and remain civil. you and yours spend all your time calling me names then act shocked when i stand up for myself and give as good as i get.
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By: Noah on January 28, 2011
at 10:01 AM
delurkergurl i thought we agreed to disagree and stay out of each-others way? you have never once addressed any point I have ever made and for many of the same reasons as Alive and Well. Just no point as long as your afraid of being proven wrong, even though only positive things can come from the experience
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By: Noah on January 28, 2011
at 9:59 AM
Wonderful post, Helen. I hope Margaret is not too distraught because I know you can handle comments that come in from the crazies. You are a clear thinking and intelligent woman. Don’t stop posting because of idiots. It is their choice to read and their choice to comment and we certainly don’t want to take away their “right “to do so. Irrational ignorance runs rampant because none of these people can think for themselves.
Don’t worry about feeding the child? What the hell is wrong with Perry?
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: these people love the fetus and hate the child. Once the child is born they are suddenly ok with taking away their healthcare, taking away their education and taking away their parent’s jobs. Suddenly, they no longer care about the human they insisted be born. How godlike and Christian is that?? Too many are hiding behind the term Christian.
Maybe we need a supreme court ruling on when, where and how a man can use his little tool !!!
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By: Colorado Blue on January 28, 2011
at 9:45 AM
OceanGypsy, it is so nice to see you back here. I enjoyed your posts. I wish nothing but the best for you and your family. 🙂
Alive and Well, you have a new fan. I enjoyed your post and had to chuckle at the cheese reference. 😀
Poolman, you know I’m praying for wonderful doors to be opened for you! When things are easy and going great, you’re less likely to hear God’s whispers and explore new possibilities. This tough patch is a launching pad for something great. I can feel it. Shut out some of the noise and you’ll hear what you need to hear! 🙂
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By: delurkergurl on January 28, 2011
at 9:41 AM
There can be no debate without respect. Noah, you don’t respect people and they don’t respect you. You’re completely wasting your time and ours. Ever hear the one about trying to teach a pig to dance? Give it up!
Respect isn’t about ideological agreement. Go find some people you respect and debate them. I hadn’t thought of this before, but you would fit in pretty well over at Rutherford’s blog. Their idea of what a debate is aligns much better, too.
http://rutherfordl.wordpress.com/
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By: delurkergurl on January 28, 2011
at 9:24 AM
OceanGypsi, your nephew and his friends are lucky to have you on their side.
Good, bad or nation saving, wars turn out the same for the warriors. It is our duty to help repair the physical and emotional damage to people who fight for us.
Combat is traumatic as are a lot of other experiences like tornadoes, auto wrecks, and even abortions. They all rest on a continuum.
The survivors become close because they are the only ones who truly understand. Some thrive in adversity, some don’t. All are changed one way or the other.
Message boards, especially unmoderated sites produce a form of verbal combat. Some are better at it than others.
Poolman, if things become too bad, you might want to consider researching conditions up here. Omaha is gaining national attention as one of the best places to run or start a small business. The unemployment rate in this area is around 4 to 6%. Of course there is the snow…
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By: James on January 28, 2011
at 9:21 AM
You are an amazing writer.
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By: Gail on January 28, 2011
at 9:08 AM
your welcome
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By: vgman on January 28, 2011
at 8:55 AM
then take it to be fact..your not capable
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By: vgman on January 28, 2011
at 8:54 AM
Anyways your not
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By: vgman on January 28, 2011
at 8:51 AM
p.s. i have presented no facts, only my opinion, so this my facts are wrong and yours are right BS is just another excuse not to deal with being unable to support your beliefs in debate.
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By: Noah on January 28, 2011
at 8:45 AM
Bottom line is I have an ideology that you have an inability to argue against. In my opinion I think it shows yours is full of holes and rather than step up and face it you hide. There is nothing you can say that I couldn’t engage you in conversation about so I know your reasons for not responding are BS pure and simple. Anyways your not able to participate and that puts our conversation at an end. Last word is yours.
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By: Noah on January 28, 2011
at 8:43 AM
Hooray for Helen!
YES, YES, YES, “Alive and Well”…that is exactly why most of us are here!
Well Said!!!!
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By: Sally Anne on January 28, 2011
at 7:22 AM
Noah,
Here is something true to ponder on. I know folks like you don’t believe what others have to say, so read this and then rethink Rick Perry and his wanting to be up all of our vagina’s. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/opinion/27kristof.html?WT.mc_id=OP-SM-E-FB-SM-LIN-TOJ-012711-NYT-NA&WT.mc_ev=click&_r=2&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1296213762-sZ1z1kGx8rPCzufvMD4b+g
hope I did that right.
Margaret, you are my hero for being able to put into words what I wished I could. But, I’m a bit slow at putting my thoughts together now after 4 brain surgeries, I’m still working on that one though. I am just blessed to still be here. God Bless you and Helen. I have a nice piece of apple pie and some fresh coffee, come join me.
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By: Penny on January 28, 2011
at 5:27 AM
There’s nothing to debate. I come to this political blog to hear the great Helen Philpot speak her mind. It’s refreshing and fun. Her wit, sarcasm and stinging commentary comprise a larger-than-life clarion ringing out in truth over the vitriolic clamor of the present-day throng of loudmouthed right wing nut jobs on soapboxes. Then I chime in, like many of Helen’s readers and supporters, to cheer her on, affirm my beliefs and declare my support for her point of view. I know my facts. I see the truth. I have lived a long life. I have plenty of experience. I’m good. I’m happy. I’m alive. I’m well. I’m well-adjusted. It’s Jackson, Noah and other like-minded individuals who have a problem with this blog and with people like me. They are the crust on my cheese. I trim them away to get to the good stuff in life. I’ll still be here 30 years from now, cackling like an old happy witch as I watch the world continue to turn my way. Social Democracy is the answer, like it or not, and someday social justice, human rights, social rights, civil rights and civil liberties will prevail across this great land we call the USA.
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By: Alive and Well on January 28, 2011
at 1:33 AM
That avatar was my grandson. You make me feel young! 😉 He is actually going to be 8 in two weeks. They sure grow up fast!
One thing about combat. It makes lifetime and solid friendships, I have noticed. Glad your nephew has the support of these friends. Yes, I was aware of the rising suicide rate. I’m ready to bring them all home. This is not what mankind was made for. This cannot be our legacy.
Business is slow, slow, slow. I don’t think it is going to get back to “normal” anytime soon. At least not with what I do. I appreciate the prayers. Since you were here last, delurkergurl set up a nice comfy kitchen to keep us late-nighters and midnight snackers from loitering on the porch after Helen and Margaret go to bed. Come by and pay us a visit. Coffee’s always hot and the cookies are to die for. 😀
http://chatterclatter.wordpress.com/
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By: poolman on January 27, 2011
at 11:50 PM
Thank you, Poolman. It’s good to be back. I remember that adorable pic you had on your gravatar of your son with delicious cheeks and a melting smile.
I couldn’t agree with you more. We have no business over there. Karzai is corrupt. All that we are doing is killing more of our men and women. Did you see the statistic on the news the other night of more soldier suicides in 2010 than combat casualties? I can’t think about it much. It saddens me too badly. I never took your antiwar links personally. One good thing that did come out of their deployment was that I sent one nephew over. I had five return. I love each of them as if they were my own flesh and blood. And, they all call me “Nee”. My nephew’s pet name for me. 😀
The British do not have a combat engineer MOS. So, my nephew’s company was assigned to the them. All we saw on American media outlets were the Marines who were in Marjah. I had to go to bbc and aljazera.net to find out what was going on with the British NATO forces. My nephew much preferred the their ROE.
You said in a previous post that you have been busy lately. I hope that your business is flourishing!! When I lived in Honolulu, I worked with a gentleman on a DOD contract who cleaned pools to support himself through college. He developed and patented some type of leak detection widget and is wildly successful.
Thank you for your prayers. I’m always available to be placed on someone’s prayer list. 😉 I can sure use all that I can get. I will do the same for you and your family.
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By: OceanGypsi on January 27, 2011
at 11:35 PM
OceanGypsi,
Good to see you back. I am sorry for what your nephew had to go through and how much it has changed him. I remember when he was first deploying and your concerns. I also remember how proud you were of him. I had him on my prayerlist then, but forgot about him as time passed. I will put him back there and add you too. I know my antiwar links used to get you down. I never meant them to. But these ongoing wars are not good for us or anyone serving in them. They sure are not good for anything living. Unfortunately many are profitting from them, so I don’t see a clear end in sight.
May there be peace in your home, I pray. His peace that passes all understanding.
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By: poolman on January 27, 2011
at 11:06 PM
Thank you, Jackson’s Ghost. I appreciate your comments. Albeit, I found them a little patronizing in tone. I did not say “I’m personally against abortion, but…I can’t …” I did say that in some cases that I personally have witnessed, it seems like it would have been more humane for the child if they had been aborted. The governor’s proposal is to require a sonogram and audio of the heartbeat. Why? In my more recent post, I said that I believe it is a manipulation tactic to evoke his preferred response. The Crusades are brought to my mind. They worked out really well for us… When did Jesus manipulate or force Himself upon us?
Yes, according the Bible, murder is a sin. So is overeating. Does God look upon any one sin as more hell-binding than another? No. Sin is sin.
I appreciate your reference to the OT. And, I respect your stance on the issue. Your approach is not my approach. You seem to stand firm using scripture as your methodology. I stand firm using kindness and non-judgment as my methodology. Only God can say if either approach is right or wrong. But if just one person is reached through either or both methodologies, isn’t all of Heaven rejoicing?
Thank you, James. Our soldiers need all of our support upon their return. There are countless invisible scars.
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By: OceanGypsi on January 27, 2011
at 10:42 PM
James, get a life, dude.
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By: Jason on January 27, 2011
at 9:43 PM
I figured you would disagree, Noah. Most people probably don’t accept the reasoning I do to reach a conclusion many agree with.
My way of thinking is colored by my past. Strangling a man in the service was a life changing experience because this was a real human being who had a family, friends and favorite movies. Under different circumstances, he might have been a friend. Yet, I had to dispose of him because he had tried to kill me. I regard what I did as an attempt at murder and I believe an abortion is murder too.
A baby to me is a concept. It is a living proto -human being, but we don’t really know the fetus. Even when the baby is kicking like mad and reacting to our voices, it is an abstraction, less real than someone already out in the world. We ascribe traits we want the baby to have when we are really clueless. The mother is a real person with experiences, hopes and disappointments. If its a choice of the baby or her, she has to be the chosen one.
I coldly weigh things according to a cost-benefit ratio. I would never impose my views on anyone else. This one makes me a little uncomfortable. I am only sharing them here. I’m glad you disagree, Noah.
Ocean Gypsi, I am so glad you returned and told me. I had thought of your nephew off and on every few months, especially when news casters told us of violence in Afghanistan.
I’m sorry he is having emotional problems. For what is worth, our niece suffered PTSD after her first tour to Afghanistan, and her marriage nearly broke up. She had counseling, and she is fine after her second tour.
I couldn’t sleep without a knife under my pillow, and I was so angry I must have smashed over twenty transistor radios my first summer back. I kept it secret because the neighbors were whispering about my cousin and some friends who were home. They were comparing notes about how much they had changed. I put on a happy face. What were quiet murmers to others were loud noises to me. I hated them and they made my heart race.
My brother was home on leave before his second tour in Vietnam, and I had been home only two days. He showed off to his girlfriend by challenging me to a kneeling contest. My brother was a good eight inches taller than I and tough old Vietnam Army guy would drop me in the dust.
It didn’t work that way. My bony little fingers dug into his and suddenly, he was no longer my brother. I wanted to kill him as I slammed him to the floor.
Even now, when it gets heated on this message board, I revert to fighting long dead enemies in my head. It makes me a little nastier than I might be. My mother said the service had ruined me, and I should have fled to Canada.
I have also had a couple of concussions, as a civilian. One made my brain swell briefly.
Your nephew went through worse than I, but I think he can become as happy a person as someone like me. It takes a lot of time and work. You’re right. He will never be the same, but he can be even better than he was. I think he will need you a lot, and you sound like a good person to lean on.
My poor wife has to put up with my quirks. She helped save me without the benefit of medication or counseling. She helps me when I feel mourose as I help her. And what does she get in return? I drag her on storm chases, and enjoy the drama of narrow escapes. Life is good.
Could you let us or me know how your nephew is doing from time to time? If you need any help or good thoughts, let me know. I hope my trip down memory lane gives you hope that it can turn out all right.
I think you might be on to something with the sewing machine. If you two are good at making pillows, is there a chance you could sell some or give them away as Christmas gifts? I’m impressed that you did so much without a lesson.
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By: James on January 27, 2011
at 9:36 PM
Ocean Gypsi,
No debate here as you sound like a nice enough gal – albeit I find scripturally confused. This isn’t meant to confront but to correct something you said.
Your friend vgman is correct in that it is the children and I have told people if you want a decent public school system, the throwing money at the problem will do nothing. Get a better quality parent and your schools will be fine. If I could wave a magic wand, all children would have a loving mother and father. Unfortunately, that particular situation becomes more rare each day and our society will eventually crumble because of it.
About this…
I too was raised a Baptist but married to a Catholic. The differences are minimal as Jesus one and the same, and I have come to appreciate the beauty of both mass and a service; each have their strengths. But you as a professed Christian have a responsibility to speak truth no matter what denomination. You can’t just answer I’m personally against abortion, but…I can’t …
That’s cliche and completely secular.
In fact, if you were to read Ezekiel 33, you would be the watchman, or should be. You can speak to Billy Graham, your father, the ghost of Mother Theresa or Pope Benedict – all would answer the same to you if you asked. If you lend your support to sin, then according to the word of God, you have blood on your hands. Please read that yourself and meditate what I am telling you. You need to think long and hard about your message you provided this morning, because your message is not scriptural, but worldly.
I grant that we as Christian’s render into Caesar. That much is clear. But this is a Republican – not a theocracy and not an empire, and we the people are the government. It is your duty as both Christian and citizen to recognize sin and call it what it is. Your loving manner is a nice quality. But without truth, it is meaningless in the eyes of God.
You sound like a nice lady. I wish you happiness and good luck in your endeavors, whatever they may be. But you need to give consideration to your stances. Abortion is not an issue you can straddle the fence. Yours is a comfortable position to hold, but not an appropriate Christian position to hold.
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By: Jackson's Ghost on January 27, 2011
at 9:33 PM
@9:05
Ocean Gypsy, thank you for your post.
It was a blessed calm in this sea of noise.
It’s the children, people. And until we take responsibility for truly raising our young ones in a loving way, the world will not be right.
It’s the children, people.
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By: vgman on January 27, 2011
at 8:49 PM
Lori, I forgot to address your question of my daughter. She is doing so well. I am really tired of this recession. It seems as though our Christmas’ are becoming more and more lean. I bought her a sewing machine in hopes that we could learn to sew together and supplement our wardrobes with custom-made, one of a kind pieces. SHE LOVES IT!! But instead of simple skirts or what have you, we have pillows all over the house. Big ones, little ones, oddly shaped ones, strange looking ones. We haven’t had a lesson yet. But, I sure am enjoying this “body pillow” that she made with pink teddy bears! Thanks for asking!
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By: OceanGypsi on January 27, 2011
at 8:06 PM
That stupid you were referring to must be you, because I haven’t read anything of value you’ve posted here yet. You don’t debate – you rant. You haven’t listed a fact yet to support your cause with the exception you’ve got the right to terminate a pregnancy – the law here being an ass.
The only way you can defend your argument is to prove to anyone and everyone here what you might carry in your womb is not a baby. Otherwise, all you’ve done is flaunt a perversion called “reproductive rights.”
You can beat your chest and pull your hair in a fit of rage, but you can’t even be honest with yourself, much less your audience.
In your echo chamber, you’re very brave and much the mouth Alive. In an open forum, you would be destroyed in a debate. Think I’m wrong, take a walk on the wild side at Rutherford’s link, and I’ll prove that to you and any other murdering twit here hiding behind the walls of your censoring and cowardly blog moderator, just how bright you really are.
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By: Jackson's Ghost on January 27, 2011
at 7:47 PM
Helen, yesterday my wife told me she had heard of your blog on the Soap Forum. She had checked you out and happily shared with me her heartfelt belief that I would love you and your thoughts. Two peas in a pod. Well, she was ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! I have fallen in love with you and your intelligently stated and logically reasoned thoughts. I love the gusto and clarity with which you present them. You are a jewel! Continue to express yourself with the forthrightness and intensity that comes from speaking the truth!
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By: Jim Murray on January 27, 2011
at 7:36 PM
Thank you, Noah. I find it best to try and approach things in life with a realistic, holistic point of view. But, I see the governor’s proposal as a tactic to manipulate the parents to be into his preferred outcome. Pregnancy, especially the first trimester, brings such a radical flux of hormones that emotions are imbalanced. I remember bursting into tears when I went to McDonald’s drive-thru and their frozen coke machine was broken, knowing that Burger King was just across the street and had the same frothy treat.
Yes, James. It is me! It was my nephew who was in Afghanistan. He made it home safely. But, he was in several explosion during Operation Moshtarak in the Helmand Province and suffered a concussion and TBI. Today, he is a mess. Severe PTSD. He is on a cocktail of meds to deal with the TBI, nightmares, mood swings, and nervousness. But, I am SO thankful he is home. Not all in his company made it. He doesn’t want to sleep because his best friend, who died in an explosion, visits him in his dreams. He doesn’t visit him as he was before their deployment. He visits him as he was when they pulled the buffalo off of him. War is so ugly. And although they come home, they are forever changed. When he gets out of the Army, he wants to come live with me. I can’t wait! I will keep my yellow ribbon on my door until I see him with his bags!
Hey, Lori!!!! How’ve you been? Does Chloe still post here? I know that she lives in Tulsa. I am now a volunteer diver at the aquarium and have thought of trying to look her up when I am there.
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By: OceanGypsi on January 27, 2011
at 7:26 PM
end results are the same despite your claim Alive and Well, you came to a political blog to discuss nothing…what sense does that make? I guess insults are all you are capable of after all…i misjudge you.
James I respectfully disagree. A dog has no potential to be anything more than a dog, a child does. While it is still a line drawing issue at some point we have to decide when we will recognize that potential and give it rights. We already have rights for children who are born. I claim that a baby is as much alive 5 minutes before birth as it is 5 minutes after birth.
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By: Noah on January 27, 2011
at 7:24 PM
*** I meant to say Jackson, not James.
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By: Alive and Well on January 27, 2011
at 6:36 PM
Noah, I’m not cow-towed by anything written here by you, by James or by any other obnoxious idiot who comes trolling along. My skin is at least as thick as yours and then some. Bait me all you want, but it will get you absolutely nowhere. I learned a hell of a long time ago that one can’t win an argument with a stupid person because a stupid person never realizes when they have lost the argument. Facts are facts, and the facts support Helen’s side of this issue.
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By: Alive and Well on January 27, 2011
at 6:33 PM
In Iowa and Nebraska people who have killed pregnant women in car accidents or otherwise have been charged with killing two people. The Omaha World Herald commented on contradictions in the law a few years ago. It gave the fetus “rights” in one case, but not in the other. There may be a time line, maybe 20 weeks.
I don’t think we should codify a fetus’ rights into law, any more than our dogs should have rights, but it has a moral right to live. The mother’s needs come first, and ending the fetus should be an act of self defense when no other good choices remain. We shouldn’t have codified “rights” which could be misused. One hopes the mother decides to do the right thing if she has good options, even if she doesn’t it is still her choice to live with.
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By: James on January 27, 2011
at 5:51 PM
misworded that…I doubt anyone here would argue that a child doesn’t have rights..meaning we would agree children have rights that should be protected and defended
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By: Noah on January 27, 2011
at 5:40 PM
No one’s puppet , you read between the lines then take it to be fact..your not capable of determining my intentions, keep that in mind when you tell me what I am thinking.
I say the fetus absolutely has rights and here is why. I doubt anyone here would argue that a child has rights. If a child was 5 seconds old from having been given birth and someone came in and shot that child dead, I think we would all agree that person would have committed murder. I want those who do not believe a fetus has any rights to tell me what magical process has occurred passing from inside the mother to the outside world to suddenly giving this child basic human rights?
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By: Noah on January 27, 2011
at 5:38 PM
Noah, the fetus has no rights, it doesn’t have the legal status of a person, you’re just bound and determined to make a personal decision into a Court Case.
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By: No one's puppet on January 27, 2011
at 4:36 PM
The right to live, Poolman. The mother’s rights override the fetus’ but alternatives to death should be explored.
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By: James on January 27, 2011
at 4:32 PM
Yes, Noah, in an ideal world, someone should be defending the rights of the unborn child. Like any medical procedure, the doctor should discuss the benefits and risks. The mother should know the fetus’s characteristics, maybe with a sonogram.
The mother should be offered the choice of adoption and it would be good if staunch pro- life organizations provided money and other help to a woman choosing adoption. It wouldn’t hurt to help pay the mother’s expenses while she carried the baby through and after the birth.
It is the mother’s decision to make without coercion. She deserves all the information she needs to decide.
Rutherford, I skimmed your blog after Poolman posted the link, and I like it. I was even surprised to see my name there. I hope you post again.
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By: James on January 27, 2011
at 4:27 PM
What rights are those?
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By: poolman on January 27, 2011
at 4:26 PM
in my opinion sexism and racism are one and the same. it takes two to tango and both sides should have a voice. I think you are all a little too wound up about Perry being a man for your own political ends. If it were a woman proposing the same legislation I think you would be just as opposed to it.
Again I ask, does anyone feel that someone should be defending the rights of the unborn child?
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By: Noah on January 27, 2011
at 3:29 PM
Since Poolman has taken the liberty of linking to my blog, I wanted to state for the record a paraphrase of my response to Tex over at my blog.
I find what I perceive to be anger at the “pro-life” community to be the wrong tact to take. Let’s be honest. We are all pro-life. If we are not, then we are sadists. For me the only question on the table is when does the government’s interest in protecting a growing human life morph into oppression of women? That is why I could NEVER support making abortion illegal.
With that said, we should not proudly hold our head in the air and make abortion some honor badge of feminism which is what I think I see going on here. No matter how you cut it, abortion involves snuffing out a growing life, that without intervention, would be a live human baby. This decision should never be taken lightly. Jokes about Lotto winnings going toward funding abortions are in bad taste to say the least. Women, particularly naive women, should be given every encouragement to carry a baby to term in non-life-threatening circumstances, and then raise the child or place it for adoption. If that means that they are shown sonograms of their growing fetus to ensure they understand the gravity of their decision, I don’t think that is such a bad idea.
Again, let me make myself clear. I don’t like the idea of a bunch of people with penises who have never carried a baby to term and never will, legislating a woman’s medical choices. But in our zeal to protect women’s rights we should not lose sight of the serious decision we make when we opt for abortion. Women who make this choice casually or simply to earn their feminist bona fides, deserve the disdain of our society.
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By: Rutherford on January 27, 2011
at 3:16 PM
I agree Jill and No one’s puppet.
Skyler, life begins at conception. The first collection of cells is only a potential human, but it is separate from the mother. As it grows, the fetus is essentially a parasite.
Fish, frogs, and other animals have been frozen and revived, so it doesn’t necessarily follow that a frozen embroyo equates to freezing a part of the mother. It is more primitive than a fully developed human.
According to medical studies fetuses may feel some pain as early as 13 weeks and certainly by 20 weeks. That is based on their neural development and by their reactions to interuterine treatment. They also react to light.
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By: James on January 27, 2011
at 3:08 PM
Please, Please, Please, ladies, give us your your insight to Sarah Palin’s WTF take on President Obama’s State of the Union and his Winning The Future.
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By: Ray on January 27, 2011
at 3:02 PM
Alive and Well, there is nothing to be gained by tucking tail but your welcome to take the cowards way out. These are just words. If your cow-towed because of some words on a political blog them you need to grow a thicker skin.
Skyler..end is a bit religious but I found the first 80% interesting.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/video.php?v=488452018044&oid=125911190008&comments
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By: Noah on January 27, 2011
at 2:37 PM
Whether one is pro choice or not, I just would like to clarify one thing. In my humble opinion, life could not possibly begin at conception because if it did, we would not be able to FREEZE EMBRYOS for decades and decades! I mean, none of us on this board could be frozen and then come back to life once “thawed,” could we? An embryo is an embryo until it becomes a fetus which I think is 7 or 8 weeks after conception. I suppose life begins then although I am not sure how this transition takes place.
If someone can explain to me how an embryo can possibly be alive and feel pain, I would be happy to listen.
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By: Skyler on January 27, 2011
at 1:50 PM
Noah, you poor, innocent, sweet-tongued, rational, generous, loving, kind, open-minded and ultimately-offended little boy, I’m not going to debate you. It’s not because I can’t. It’s because I won’t. You are offensive. We don’t just disagree on the issues. It’s more than a difference of opinions. Many of your “facts” and “statistics” are dead wrong. Fiction does not equal fact. Your ideology, your conversational skills, and your interpersonal skill all appear to be pathologically flawed. Your manners are atrocious. It’s a shame, because you’re probably one of my neighbors. MSU is within a stone’s throw of me. I’d sit down and have a decent conversation with you if I thought it would do any good, but I think it’s better if I maintain my privacy and keep donating to Planned Parenthood.
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By: Alive and Well on January 27, 2011
at 1:45 PM
As far the rights of a father, we all know that in a good marriage issues are discussed and mutual decisions are made, but under the law, the right to retain a pregnancy or terminate it should be the sole prerogative of the woman. Not all fathers are loving husbands. And pro-choice in my opinion is just as much about protecting the right of a woman to carry a child to term as it is to terminate a pregnancy.
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By: No one's puppet on January 27, 2011
at 1:16 PM
Helen,
You are amazing. I am thankful for you every time you share your thoughts.
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By: Sharon on January 27, 2011
at 12:58 PM
Noah, you might want to take a gander at the 14th Amendment. Rights are afforded to those who are *born.* Why should a zygote’s “rights” trump those of the born woman in whose uterus it resides?
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By: fiona64 on January 27, 2011
at 12:46 PM
The self-righteous Chelsea wrote: But, I’m not ok with saline abortions,
Which have not been performed in the US since the late 1970s due to the danger to the woman.
Just so you know.
Chelsea, my challenge to you is this: go to http://www.imnotsorry.net. You will find that there are hundreds of thousands of stories there about women who do not regret their abortions. Most don’t, in fact. Yet, thousands and thousands of women regret surrendering infants for adoption … and in Dear Abby’s infamous (and admittedly non-scientific) survey, 70 percent of parents returned a postcard to her that said if they had it to do over again, they would *not* have kids.
How many unwanted children have you taken in, Chelsea?
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By: fiona64 on January 27, 2011
at 12:44 PM
So Noah is to mind his own uterus, which he doesn’t have? A man who helps make a baby can have no say in this matter? A man can’t love and desire his own offspring? Women are awfully selfish about this issue. Leave Noah alone, for God’s sake. He doesn’t want to take anyone’s freedoms away. He made that clear in his comment. I personally don’t think any medical procedures should be mandated by government and forced on men or women, but slamming Noah for feeling emotion for his baby is a little absurd. And no, I don’t think his single comment is going to be responsible for oppressive legislation.
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By: Jill on January 27, 2011
at 12:43 PM
Well, if you’re a Sparty fan, then you are A-OK. But if you are a Michigan fan, you guys will be back in time. Go Bucks!
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By: Jell-OH Schott on January 27, 2011
at 12:43 PM
heh you should read the caption…Im a MSU fan. The caption reads: We have changed our mascot to the opossum, We play dead at home and get killed on the road.
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By: Noah on January 27, 2011
at 12:15 PM
Noah’s a Michigan fan. Nuff said. GO BUCKS!!!!
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By: Jell-OH Schott on January 27, 2011
at 11:55 AM
In an effort of fairness, I want to provide the link to a blog that Tex (aka, Keyboard Cowboy, Jackson, Jack, and some other various “handles” he has used to comment here) frequents and comments on. He has been critical of Helen’s writings and some of the comments he has cut and pasted there from here.
http://rutherfordl.wordpress.com/
The writings of the blog owner are often good and insightful. The commentary often becomes a battle of “liberals” vs. “conservatives” and some is fairly ugly. Consider yourself forewarned.
I have not caught up to all the comments here and really will likely pass for now. Life is suddenly busy for me beyond the blogosphere…
May all that pass here be blessed and may the Spirit of peace inhabit your world today, I pray.
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By: poolman on January 27, 2011
at 11:37 AM
Exactly one person should get to decide what happens inside a uterus: the person in whom the uterus can be found. Everyone else needs to shut up and butt out. I’m looking at you, authoritarians and pearl-clutchers. Mind your own uteruses. No one else’s is any of your damn business.
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By: Bill Cameron on January 27, 2011
at 11:28 AM
Helen, you are amazing. I will never understand why these christians can’t just keep out of other people’s business. It is nobody’s business but the individual(s) involved whether or not they bring a life into the world. Period.
Please keep writing. You are an inspiration to us all. My goal is to be like you, intelligent, outspoken, true to my beliefs all my life.
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By: Vicki on January 27, 2011
at 11:28 AM
Daryl..what didn’t I reply too.
Debra Schubert..does the unborn child have any rights and should anyone be looking out for the rights of that unborn child?
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By: Noah on January 27, 2011
at 11:20 AM
If you don’t believe in abortion, don’t have one. Plain and simple. Keep your laws off my body!
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By: Debra Schubert on January 27, 2011
at 11:03 AM
So I see Noah hasnt replied ..
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By: Daryl on January 27, 2011
at 10:24 AM
The Perry Plan is just a hint of the total mindset against women — all women, pro-birthers are even included. Its a world wide thing. Take a look at El Salvador. It is just about a complete copycat of Romania some years ago under the dictator and his wife. Remember what happened there? A revolution. The dictator and his wife were shot by firing squad.
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on January 27, 2011
at 10:06 AM
Oceannnnnnnnnn long time no see… 😉 We have missed you. Hows the little one?
BTW your post was spot on as always.. xo
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By: lori on January 27, 2011
at 9:24 AM
I like your post OceanGypsi. Are you the person who’s son was serving in Afghanistan? If so, you watched the “Remember me” video I suggested. That was a long time ago, and I probably forgot who it was, but your handle seemed familiar.
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By: James on January 27, 2011
at 9:18 AM
OceanGypsi one of the best articulate posts I have seen in a long while.
I don’t feel that this is really an issue about trusting us to make our own choice though it certainly does coheres us into making one choice. I think this is what it has always been a line drawing issue. When does the child’s rights trump that of the mother? I feel this is an attempt to give the child more rights than what it currently has. The unborn child cannot speak for itself so it is up to us to decide what rights we will and will not give it. To that end we argue back and forth where that line will be drawn.
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By: Noah on January 27, 2011
at 9:14 AM
I agree with Noah, but I like “Perry Principle.” To me, it describes a mind set, not the hyprocracy of specific politicians.
Social Security will be in the red this year according to a news report I just heard, and it will be insolvent by about 2035 if something isn’t done. Congress will surely fix it, but what happens if we run out of handout money?
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By: James on January 27, 2011
at 9:13 AM
Being a Baptist pastor’s daughter who converted to Catholocism, I understand what the Bible says and the different nuances between Catholicism and Protestantism. But having lived life long enough to see for myself, I cannot understand why the masses aren’t “trusted” to make their own decision.. ? At the end of the day, one’s responsibility is to be true to THEIR God and themself, and that’s IT! I say THEIR God as I have close friends who are Bhuddist, Jewish, Islamic, Wiccan, Athiest, and Agnostic, to name just a few, who believe differently than I. Most live their lives more morally and peaceably than a lot of the right and left wingers that I know.
I just cannot understand why are we not allowed to make our own decision, to deal with our own conscience in the quiet of the night, and to decide what we ourselves are able to handle?
I do not know the statistics of normal pregnancies and abnormal ones that have been previously posted. But if this governor’s way is granted, how intensive and difficult will it be to abort an abnormal one? Besides all of that, how many people on this board have worked with children (or adults) who were neglected and abused? I have worked with children. Some of the tragedies that some of these SMALL children have sustained are truly heart-wrenching. Emaciated children who were sexually abused beginning at age three. Children who were locked in closets, burned with cigarettes, beaten for asking for water. Broken bones. Maimed. Humiliated… As difficult as it was for me to reconcile within myself, I sometimes wondered if they would have been better off if they had been aborted. They clearly weren’t wanted. No familial or government agency was there to rescue them from their hell. Now, they have to live with demons that have scarred them for the rest of their lives. Wondering why they weren’t good enough, why they weren’t loveable, wondering what was so wrong with them. That is less cruel than abortion? I just don’t see it.
So instead of spewing venom, instead of feverishly typing insults, why not subscribe to your moral authority and pray for those who do not believe like you? Pray for women to make the right decision for all involved in their situation? Pray for those who lived hellish childhoods who may or may not create the same hell for their children.
Honestly, the last time that I checked, Jesus’ message was still LOVE.. And He gave me the CHOICE to love Him or not.
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By: OceanGypsi on January 27, 2011
at 9:05 AM
It’s not just Perry, delurkergurl. Politicians across the country are doing the same thing because they believe if they don’t take the money, someone else will. Our governor should have used the handouts to help Iowa adjust to the bad economy, but he spent it on new programs, and it is one reason he lost the last election to a Republican.
I saw the same thing when I ran hospital supply in the Air Force. My superiors told me to keep my orders up because if we asked or less money our financial allocation would drop.
I like “Perry Principle.” It is too good to stay here. I hope you don’t mind if I use it at a political meeting my wife and I plan to attend on Saturday.
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By: James on January 27, 2011
at 9:04 AM
See this is where we get derailed as a country. We seem to have an issue separating the people who make the legislation with the legislation. We lose if we concentrate on the people rather than what they are legislating. It is the legislation that will profoundly effect is all, not weather or not you feel Perry is a man of integrity, it only serves to muddy the waters. Unless of course your goal really never was about the issue but rather to demonize your political rival and this issue gave you a forum to do that.
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By: Noah on January 27, 2011
at 8:55 AM
The Perry Principle – balance the budget with federal handouts while railing against federal handouts. Somewhat like biting the hand that feeds you, don’t you think? Just another obvious example of Perry’s integrity.
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By: delurkergurl on January 27, 2011
at 8:40 AM
It isn’t just abortion that will be affected if a woman’s right to choose is eroded. It wasn’t so long ago that in-vitro fertilization was demonized for the very same reasons as abortion. Somehow that has slipped under the radar for now, but hundreds of thousands of children have been brought into the world because of this procedure, and that will go back on the table should the country swing any further to the extreme right.
This argument goes both way. The choice to become a parent is and should be difficult. Children deserve to be born into loving homes.
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By: Tina on January 27, 2011
at 8:38 AM
Sorry, I meant Noah.
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By: James on January 27, 2011
at 8:13 AM
See that is the difference between you and I Alive and Well, I have no personal issue with you. I never once called you ignorant. You just like everyone else has a complete inability, I am assuming by choice, to argue points of merit. Like so many on here you call me names, attacking me personally, telling me how you completely disagree with me. Well if that is the case tell me what you disagree with. Read my post at Noah on January 26, 2011 at 2:09 PM and 2:56 PM and tell me specifically what I said there that makes me this horrible person you all claim I am. Then we stand a chance of having an intelligent conversation. Telling me I am wrong without pointing out why accomplishes nothing.
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By: Noah on January 27, 2011
at 8:05 AM
Most blogs want to increase traffic, and you are doing that, Craig. I agree PFessor.
I believe the “it wasn’t me” stuff because it also happened to me.
God bless you Mary Jane.
Donna has probably forgotten that she offered a little advice when I and others were defendants in a law suit last October. It’s still going on, but now we have two lawyers, a counter- suit and as of Tuesday, an injunction. We actually talked to reporters after court and said we couldn’t talk. That, is real life. This is a temporary escape.
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By: James on January 27, 2011
at 8:04 AM
Noah-
I’m jealous. How do you rate an Internet stalker and mine has disappeared?
Remember when the stalking thing was going full-tilt? You, me, James, Craig…… Only. See a pattern there?
Glad it’s just electrons. When you get too invested and it’s too important, you get targeted. That’s why the Brits could never do anything with Gandhi – he had nothing they could take away and therefore nothing to threaten him with.
Gotta go. Shoulder arthrograms today. Off to watch the protons dance!
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By: PFesser on January 27, 2011
at 6:19 AM
C clearanceYou
“GIVE her a say??????? Aren you freaking nuts? YOU HAVE NO SAY you pompous control freak jerk.”
OK – fair enough. Then I suppose, in order to be fair, you won’t require any financial support from the father, either.
And since I didn’t get the fun of impregnating her, I – as a taxpayer – don’t want to pay for the child’s support.
You go, girl. It’s all YOUR project. Now that’s an idea I could get behind. Shifting the wages of irresponsibility back onto the shoulders of those who WERE irresponsible just might solve the problem, mightn’t it?
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By: PFesser on January 27, 2011
at 6:08 AM
Jeepers! Maybe I’m not so ignorant after all, eh Noah?
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By: Alive and Well on January 27, 2011
at 5:57 AM
Margaret, YOU should replace Keith Olberman! I mean it. Really.
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By: winnie on January 27, 2011
at 3:50 AM
Ok done this should hopefully solve my stalker problem..new image..and passwords all around.
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By: Noah on January 27, 2011
at 12:42 AM
ok going to figure out this profile thing and see if i cant make myself unique in some way to avoid this guy posting as me.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 11:47 PM
Well there you have it, Noah picked up a fever while in Africa. Noah, take a couple of aspirins and see the doctor in the morning. You are delusional dear.
Debbie that evolutionary theory you were thinking of is called The Sexy Son Theory, by succumbing to the charms of a sexy man, you will have the opportunity to have sexy sons likely to impregnate more women than the average guy, and therefore, you increase the number of your natural grandchildren, etc all carrying your DNA. It is a part of The Selfish Gene Theory.
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By: No one's puppet on January 26, 2011
at 10:58 PM
Mary Jane and Jesus. What a combination! You go, girl!
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By: Alive and Well on January 26, 2011
at 10:35 PM
I’m not buying all this business about “it wasn’t me” who said this or that. Get a profile. Verify your posts with a gravatar profile. Otherwise, I can’t help but believe this is all just another distraction being used by the dumb and dumber to force their chaos onto an otherwise orderly crowd.
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By: Alive and Well on January 26, 2011
at 10:33 PM
When I had my abortion it devasted me. IT was a girl. I am sure. She still visits me in my dreams. She’s not very pretty though. Looks more like her father that shithead but has my figure. Poor dear. Anyway, it devasted me. I went a little nuts. I was all set to be something / someone important and impressive. And then I fell apart. But I found Jesus. Lost most of my friends. Met my husband. Had three children. They all look like my brother for heaven’s sake. All turned out ok. If I had heard the heartbeat I wouldn’t have done it. But then I wouldn’t have my family today. Funny how that all works out. God bless you all. I will pray for you. Thank you. You are all warriors in his army. Thank you.
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By: Mary Jane on January 26, 2011
at 10:29 PM
If it wasn’t so damn funny it would be sad really.
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By: Jimmy Z on January 26, 2011
at 10:25 PM
OMG. I am LMAO. These comments are a scream. too funny.
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By: Carrie on January 26, 2011
at 10:21 PM
I think #13 really was you.
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By: bingo on January 26, 2011
at 10:09 PM
But then again HoneyJorumples who are you to judge anyone anywhere. I bet you are just another sheep coming to look for Helen’s vagina so you can crawl inside and be lulled to sleep by her ignorant rants.
Welcome Kumar to the sheep club. Admit one.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 10:01 PM
don’t look now, Noah, but the wee people are after you!
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By: Kumar on January 26, 2011
at 9:57 PM
See what you did? You woke him up.
He isn’t taking his meds correctly and really needs to sleep. Otherwise, he thinks people are after him. He thinks bloggers actually give a rat’s ass about him and his so called life. He is pathetic and needs to be put down like the dog he is.
Baaaaa
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By: Harold on January 26, 2011
at 9:52 PM
HoneyJorumples that was not me posting. Somehow people are able to assume the name of another poster to appear as them. James and a few others and myself have been plagued by this individual on other threads. I don’t personally know anyway to combat this but I do not typically make outlandish comments like that or personally attack any individual.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 9:48 PM
Please, let him sleep…
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By: Harold on January 26, 2011
at 9:43 PM
p.s. I have to assume that his belief that women are not as good at putting other life ahead of their own, that includes his wife. I’m amazed he can sleep at night, having no choice to to allow such a selfish, horrible creature carry his child. This must be the reason he claims he would carry the child for her if he could. He doesn’t even trust his own wife to carry his child. So does that mean you’re going to stay home with the child and raise it, too, Noah?
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By: HoneyJorumples on January 26, 2011
at 9:41 PM
I don’t know how seriously to take this Noah business, but one thing that was said I must respond to…
” I do think, however, that if men carried the child there would be less abortions. We are more likely to put another life before our own.”
This says a lot about the poster, whoever he/she is. This poster makes vast, sweeping generalizations, and thinks very little of women at large. And this statement is just bone-headed, considering it totally ignores the 3 to 10 women ever single day in America who are murdered by a husband or lover. Is killing your wife putting her life ahead of your own? How many rapes occur every day in this country? Is raping a woman a way of putting her life before your own, too? And one more thing this poster is not taking into consideration…I frequent a message board where people go to discuss relationship issues, problems, exchange advise, etc. In the past 2 years, there have been FOUR different women who have gotten pregnant by their significant other, and was told by their lover that he was not ready to be a father and to get an abortion or he would leave her. All of these women wanted the baby they carried, but were in love and did not want to lose their man. We tried to champion for the choice they really wanted to make, but the first three opted to end their pregnancies to make their men happy, and one of those men left later anyway. Thank goodness we were able to talk the fourth woman into making the choice she wanted to make and kept her baby, even though her lover was furious with her. I’d just LOVE to hear what our pious, sainted Noah would have to say about these men, who refused to put the women they claimed to love and even their own offspring before their own convenience.
I also think this is the main reason why abortion is still legal. A lot of men like this want it to be. If every man passionately wanted it to be illegal again, it would be.
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By: HoneyJorumples on January 26, 2011
at 9:36 PM
@Deanne: The Noah character already stated that he would LET his pregnant wife have 60% of any pregnancy decision. So, he LETS her keep 2/3 of the pregnancy. How lucky can that poor woman be?
Typical male domination over women fantasy.. hence his never ending bullshit on M&H’s blog!
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By: cryptoclearance on January 26, 2011
at 7:50 PM
Great comment Donna. I refer to an earlier comment where someone made the point that this issue will divide us and should not be in politics.
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By: Terry on January 26, 2011
at 7:48 PM
But IF my wife had wanted to go to Dafar and IF she indeed did get sick, I would still want her to have all the options f songorams and heartbeats before she decided to end a life. THat is my opinion only.
Welcome to the sheep club Deanne. I’m sure you’ll be happy there.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 7:45 PM
BIGGER question Donna. What happens when Mr. Noah wants to keep the baby and Mrs. Noah does not. I suppose Mr. Noah happily forces her to wathc the sonogram and hear the heartbeat and if she still refuses??? Well, now that is a tough one.
Great comment Donna.
I thought you left for the night Noah. Or is this your “stalker”. Me thinks there is no stalker. Only you. Get some help.
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By: Deanne on January 26, 2011
at 7:43 PM
sorry cant resist reading and havent read your entire post but I want to correct you. Check my post and you find that I said…my wife and I decided that I would go. She did not go with me. Please try and be more accurate.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 7:36 PM
Abortion is not for everyone, neither is parenthood.
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By: alicia on January 26, 2011
at 7:27 PM
Jack is Tex Taylor aka Keyboard Cowboy. Banned here under two different names. Back to try again.
But I come back to the same point that I made yesterday. Noah claimed in a post on New Year’s Day that he and his wife were returning from Darfur. Now, assuming he does now have a 7 months pregnant wife, she was 6 months pregnant when she travelled to one of the most dangerous, least sanitary, most disease-ridden places on earth.
Very cursory reading will list the health risks of travelling to Darfur, including the parasites and various diseases that the traveller risks. It is surprising that any charitable group would permit a late-second trimester pregnant woman to go or that any physician would clear it.
But let’s accept for purposes of this discussion that against medical advice and the advice of the U.S. government, Mr. and Mrs. Noah were so determined to go on this particular mission of mercy at this particular time, regardless of the pregnancy and the risks to both mother and baby, that they went.
Now, let’s assume that one of the rampant diseases to which the Noahs voluntarily exposed the pregnant Mrs. Noah and their hoped-for baby did infect Mrs. Noah. Her health will be severely compromised by continuing the pregnancy. Or the child will have horrible birth defects and a short and tortured life, before dying.
Noah claims to be pro-choice. What does he choose? And if he and Mrs. Noah choose to proceed with the pregnancy (as is their right), can they appreciate that another couple might decide that they cannot risk the woman’s health or proceed to delivery with a severely impaired child? Even though this is a late term abortion and even though they very much wanted this baby.
This would be a third trimester abortion. It would be one necessitated by the parents’ choice to expose the pregnant woman to the health hazards of Darfur. Would anyone view this as a happy situation or one to take lightly? No–it would be a tragedy and a horrible loss. But can we appreciate that there may be people, at every stage of a pregnancy, for reasons ranging from the mother’s life to an inability to financially care for a child, who WILL choose to end the pregnancy and that there needs to be a safe and medically sound way for them to do so.
I happen to have a very hard time with the issue of abortion and, speaking for myself, can not see myself every having one. But I can see how other people wouldn’t agree with me and how they could have good and sound reasons for making a choice that I, personally, could not make.
I also think that much of what has been said in response to these two posts is just ventilating. It is difficult to imagine that anyone who believes that abortion is murder under any circumstances will have his/her mind changed, much less by citation to finances or the practical difficulties that some women face. Say to someone holding such a view that there should be an exception for rape or incest, and they may well respond that the woman/girl should still choose to have the baby. It’s a sincerely held, frequently religiously based core belief.
It is equally difficult to believe that anyone who believes that a woman has the right to choose abortion will be persuaded otherwise, and certainly not by people who opine that they hope abortion rights supporters will burn in hell. Or by being called a sheep or a murderer or any other insult.
Can we accept that this is an issue on which there simply won’t be agreement?
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By: Donna on January 26, 2011
at 7:27 PM
I loved this entry, Helen!
Jackson…you wrote nothing but a bunch of jibber jabber. You don’t know any more science than the people you are criticizing. It doesn’t matter whether you call a 150 cell blastocyst an embryo or a baby. That fact remains that it is a primitive entity with human dna in an early developmental stage.
Abortion is a private women’s health issue. The state has no business trying to appropriate a woman’s womb for the purposes of allowing another to develop in it. It is a violation of her civil rights. She gets to make a choice that constitutes her physical and psychological well being. She has the right to evict anyone or anything from her person.
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By: Victoria on January 26, 2011
at 7:25 PM
I suppose your governor is going to guaratee that all those babies have health care starting at birth, good grammar and high schools and an easily affordable post secondary education?
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By: ani on January 26, 2011
at 7:11 PM
Okay….Helen is brilliant. This Noah freak is just bat sh!t crazy.
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By: MRL on January 26, 2011
at 7:11 PM
Jesus Noah. You don’t even make sense. And I am not even talking about your supposed “stalker” comments. Even your retorts to other posters are silly and honestly they really don’t make sense. Do you have any idea how silly you sound?
And don’t bother, I can put myself into the sheep club. Whatever.
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By: Deanne on January 26, 2011
at 6:59 PM
This post was utterly AMAZING. I was really proud of you Helen! Thank you so much!
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By: Monster Librarian on January 26, 2011
at 6:57 PM
Give it a rest man. You are crazy. Get yourself and ark and get on out of here.
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By: PeeDee on January 26, 2011
at 6:56 PM
Good night all. Me and my vagina are off to bed.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 6:54 PM
Still not me. But I actually agree on that point. We would be a better society if men carried the child.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 6:53 PM
I am done posting for the evening. Anything else after this is the stalker.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 6:53 PM
Again not my post. Not my style. I do think, however, that if men carried the child there would be less abortions. We are more likely to put another life before our own.
Grace Sheppard welcome to the sheep club.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 6:52 PM
Not me again
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 6:52 PM
Helen is laughing at all of you. Poor Margaret will probably have to drink herself to sleep tonight. Again.
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By: Mark on January 26, 2011
at 6:35 PM
When I was in my teens, abortion was illegal. At that time, I babysat for a family of a mom, a dad and 2 little boys – Jimmy and Mitchell. Mitchell [the younger] was a strong little boy who had a pretty good sense of himself. Jimmy was more vulnerable.
Then, Mom got pregnant. Early in her term, uterine cancer was detected. Abortion was illegal, remember? And no treatment of the cancer could be undertaken while that uterus had an inhabitant. So, Billy was born. Billy was a sickly child. He spent a lot of time in the hospital. And there was a crash course to save his mother’s life.
The outcome? Mom died. Billy died. Jimmy started rocking and banging his head singing to himself, “Nobody loves Jimmy.” Mitchell seemed to be weathering the whole ordeal fairly well when I left to go off to college.
Well, I guess one out of four is a pretty good percentage as far as ol’ Ricky is concerned.
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By: two crows on January 26, 2011
at 6:29 PM
I meant Prize.
🙂
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By: Grace Sheppard on January 26, 2011
at 6:28 PM
I think Helen should receive a Pulitzer Price for this piece of writing.
The best thing I have ever read! Ever!
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By: Grace Sheppard on January 26, 2011
at 6:28 PM
Goodness. I hope Noah’s daughter doesn’t inherit his schizophrenic tendencies.
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By: Madison on January 26, 2011
at 6:25 PM
sorry my r key is acting up …your and your.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 6:17 PM
typical of you ilk crypt..pick it apart and put it back together you way in an attempt to make a point rather than come up with an original thought of your own.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 6:17 PM
[…] Sometimes men should just stick to football… but I digress Margaret, I read the comment you sent me and felt compelled to respond. I know you don’t like it when I do, but […] […]
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By: Top Posts — WordPress.com on January 26, 2011
at 6:15 PM
oh! ya gonna “let” me? maybe 60%? get a life and find another “debate”. Maybe you’ll LET some of the ewes actually baaaaahh.
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By: cryptoclearance on January 26, 2011
at 6:13 PM
crypt..your just trolling and trying to pick a fight..at least try not to be so obvious.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 6:06 PM
“Noah? After 7 years of trying?? Did you finally keep your mouth shut for a change and concentrate on what you were doing???”
who gives a hoot about this jerk. Maybe she let him spit at her.
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By: cryptoclearance on January 26, 2011
at 6:00 PM
“Because the woman is the one who has to carry the majority of the burden I give her a 60%-40% say in the final decision. But to suggest just because I am a man I do not deserve a say is ludicrous.”
You GIVE her a say??????? Aren you freaking nuts? YOU HAVE NO SAY you pompous control freak jerk.
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By: cryptoclearance on January 26, 2011
at 5:57 PM
JonC I agree with you up until the end. Black or White, Man or Woman, it doesn’t matter, we are all equal. It would be equally wrong regardless of who was committing the offense.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 5:57 PM
James, you have an excellent point and one that I probably should have explained before hitting “Post Comment”. 😉
I agree, the husband does have some say in it. My point is that, ultimately, it’s the pregnant woman’s choice, and no one should keep her from that, religion or semantics or no.
I should probably also clarify–my issue is not that pro-life people are fundamentally wrong, far from it, because their faith dictates that. They can believe in what they want, and I have no say in changing that. My issue is when that belief is forced upon the pregnant woman. Especially if it’s a man doing the forcing.
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By: JonC on January 26, 2011
at 5:47 PM
That didn’t “sound” like you, Noah. In case false James reappears too, anything from me tonight will be from someone else.
Its interesting to see “Nebraska Native’s” post. We are neighbors.
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By: James on January 26, 2011
at 5:43 PM
I don’t call names…i do make assertions but not names and I would not openly call Helen a fool…not my style.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 5:35 PM
Just scrolled up…the post “eees. It’s like banging my head against a brick wall. You are all such stupid sheep. I hate Helen. I hate you. It’s that simple. None of you have anything good to say and Helen is a fool.
My baby. My choice. Period.”
was not my post..it was my internet stalker.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 5:33 PM
Point taken PFesser
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 5:32 PM
“Jeees. It’s like banging my head against a brick wall. You are all such stupid sheep. I hate Helen. I hate you. It’s that simple. None of you have anything good to say and Helen is a fool.
My baby. My choice. Period.”
Noah –
You gotta lighten up, man. It’s not real – it’s just electrons, remember?
I am often struck by the notion that this whole blog is a giant experiment, run by a graduate student in psychology who is doing research for a Master’s – and that we are all just little lab rats responding to an occasional button push. It fits, too, if you think about it. “Helen” only posts when the conversation flags and then pushes one of the little hot-buttons and everybody goes round and round and round and round. Rinse and repeat.
Just kick back, dude, and enjoy yourself, like I do. Just think of it like professional wrestling: “Prearranged Entertainment for the Viewing Audience’s Pleasure,” as the ad disclaimers say…LOL
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By: PFesser on January 26, 2011
at 5:29 PM
Dave, I’ve got a good life, probably better than yours.
Here is a pearl of wisdom to carry you through the rest of the day. If you don’t like it, don’t read it.
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By: James on January 26, 2011
at 5:28 PM
Wow! For the first time in my life I actually realize what an Ass Hat is…so glad to meet you, Noah!
Time to put the crack pipe down, Noah. You have a baby on the way.
Poor kid.
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By: Rachel R. on January 26, 2011
at 5:26 PM
Making a donation to Planned Parenthood in both Noah and Gov. Goodhair names. Thank you thank you Helen!
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By: Nebraska Native on January 26, 2011
at 5:24 PM
I would like to welcome ReeRee and Dave to club sheep.
Pete, I disagree I feel she has a lot to answer for.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 5:19 PM
Walk toward the light, Noah.
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By: Tom on January 26, 2011
at 5:18 PM
Jeees. It’s like banging my head against a brick wall. You are all such stupid sheep. I hate Helen. I hate you. It’s that simple. None of you have anything good to say and Helen is a fool.
My baby. My choice. Period.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 5:16 PM
I REALLY feel sorry for Noah’s “family”. It is very difficult to deal with a person with OPD. Difficult because there is no cure. Only pain. And to think that he is bringing an innocent child into a world that includes this “father” with Obnoxious Personality Disorder. Sad. Very sad.
Noah, you are a sick man. It is not your fault. It is a disease.
Be strong. And God help your soon to be new born. Maybe she will have the answer to rid you of this awful, awful condition that is…you.
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By: Candace on January 26, 2011
at 5:16 PM
Noah – she owns you dude. Give up. You look foolish.
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By: ReeRee on January 26, 2011
at 5:12 PM
James, do you enjoy boring all of us. Wouldn’t it make more sense for you to create your own blog and see if anyone follows. Get a life of your own man.
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By: Dave on January 26, 2011
at 5:11 PM
Noah, it’s as if you didn’t even read the post. Helen covers all bases: rape, abnornal fetus, health of mother, poor AND women who are not ready to bring a child into the world for whatever reason period. I think she makes the point pretty well that none of those are more important or less important. Whatever the reason for choosing abortion, it is for the woman and her God to decide. NOT Dick Perry and the religious right who have ruined the Republican Party and our government.
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By: Pete on January 26, 2011
at 5:10 PM
Firstly, I think it is a waste of time to debate when “life” begins, because the real issue is not whether something is alive – it is what sort of entity is entitled to protection under the law. This is a KEY point. Some say viruses are “alive;” certainly bacteria are alive, but neither has any rights. “Oh,” you may say – “what I mean is ‘human’ life.” To that I say, one’s fingers are alive – and human – but they are not entitled to legal protection. “Life” is not the point at all and struggling over its definition leads us astray IMHO.
Here is what makes sense to me: Consider the process of building a house. You start out with a set of blueprints and over time you gradually add material; at the end you have a house, but at no time can you say that “This second it’s a house and one second ago it was not;” it is a many-month’s *process* – a continuum if you will.
I view pregnancy the same. Egg and sperm are little more than DNA – a blueprint, if you will – each carrying half of the information. At fertilization, one second later you have a single cell with *all* the drawings to make a human being – but that’s all it is – a drawing. It will then take nine months of gradually adding material according to that blueprint and certainly the result will be a human, and entitled to protection under the law, but right after fertilization, is that a person? No. Is it entitled to protection under the law? I believe the answer is no, but at some point it *will* be.
How do we decide when that point is? Here’s how: simply agree to a workable time frame, realizing from the very beginning that it is all arbitrary. Interestingly, we have already done that. It is a US Supreme Court decision, commonly referred to as Roe v. Wade.
I originally thought Roe v. Wade was a big joke, but as the years have passed, I have changed my mind; I now believe it was a fine compromise. Oversimplifying: The first trimester you can abort for any reason. The second trimester, some reasons. The third trimester, almost no reason. Solomonic, really. The only problem is that it will not please the zealots who want all or none – usually none. They can’t deal with the idea of pregnancy as a continuum any more than they can deal with the idea of compromise, or allowing someone else to make his/her own decision, because in their rigid mindset everything is black or white.
And that, my friends, is why I believe that if we intend to keep abortion safe, legal – and rare – we must meet these people head on, because they will not back down and they will not compromise. And if we do not mobilize – count on it, ladies – everything that your mothers, sisters (and I might add, fathers and brothers) fought and bled for will go down the pipes and you will once again have spittle-dripping zealots with their hands up your vaginas. Sound appetizing? I was there when it was the law of the land, and sisters it ain’t pretty.
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By: PFesser on January 26, 2011
at 5:07 PM
noah
baaaahhhh bleet baaaaaahhh
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By: jane on January 26, 2011
at 5:07 PM
That’s great Noah, personally I don’t care what or where you post. Not my blog not my rules. Your opinion is of no interest to me and I certainly know how to use my scroll button.
I just “wanted to understand” why someone who is clearly a world traveler, who has a full time job and soon to become dad would want to hang out with us hate mongering sheep and then whine about how he is being treated.
It makes little sense to me.. Buttttt whatever.. 😉
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By: lori on January 26, 2011
at 5:06 PM
JonC, I look at a little differently. As the father, I had a right to offer my opinions and I did. As the mother who would have to carry the baby, my wife had the final say.
One of my second cousins sowed too many wild oats in his youth. He broke up with a girl friend and they never saw each other again.
Two years ago, a young man who looked like my second cousin knocked on my cousins’ door and said “I might be related to you.” My second cousin’s ex- girl friend never told him she was pregnant and never told her child who the father was. He learned from his grandmother when he was twenty and spent four years tracking the family down.
Now, he and his wife are part of our family, and he looks like his father’s double.
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By: James on January 26, 2011
at 5:01 PM
Your welcome to your opinion lori and we can agree to disagree and move on.
I would like to welcome jane to club sheep.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 5:00 PM
chelsea i meant crack pipe, but i bet i looked correctly spelled to you.
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By: jane on January 26, 2011
at 4:59 PM
US out of my uterus!!!
Helen you rock.
Noah I hope your child always agrees with you.
Chelsea, put the drack pipe down.
Jackson to you I quote ….. “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
— Mahatma Gandhi
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By: jane on January 26, 2011
at 4:58 PM
Just wonderful, Helen. I think you should send this to Planned Parenthood. They could use the text in advertising.
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By: Darlene on January 26, 2011
at 4:55 PM
And Noah I’m sorry, but you say you want to know “how we feel”.
Really? You mean to tell me you can’t read M&H’s post and understand their point of view? I think they state it pretty articulately. You mean you can’t read the 100’s of comments and “understand” how we sheep feel?
I’m sorry Noah, but I call BS on that. You know damn well how we feel. You just don’t LIKE how we feel and want to “set us straight”.
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By: lori on January 26, 2011
at 4:55 PM
This is one of THE BEST writings I’ve ever seen on the subject of choice. And, hopefully, it’ll remain a choice…. One I had to make back in 1996. On behalf of those woman who have had to walk in those shoes, I thank you deeply.
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By: Rider3 on January 26, 2011
at 4:48 PM
Well I can understand you want to debate Noah. But again, I ask why would you want to debate hate mongering sheep? Surely there is a blog more suitable to your taste that aren’t as depraved as us?
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By: lori on January 26, 2011
at 4:46 PM
Thanks for the kind comments James, I will enjoy this experience both at home and on this board.
lori
I am on this board because I find little stimulation having debated with people who agree with me. I don’t lean much from people who share my perspective. True understanding and wisdom comes from seeing things from anther’s point of view. I may still disagree with them but being able to understand why they believe what they believe helps me to solidify my own personal morals and ethics. I honestly want to know why you feel as you do and what motivated you to feel that way. That is why I encourage you and others to tell me not just what you believe but why that is so. Understanding that helps me understand you better and allows me to take those things you hold dear into consideration when I make choices for me and mine. I am a strong believer in Gert’s Rules. Basically they are the 10 commandments minus religion. In brief they basically state that I can do what ever it is that makes me happy as long as my beliefs do not rob another of pleasure or happiness and that I do not impose my beliefs upon another. I can tell you what I think and believe but I have no right to force that upon you. Not always easy but like perfection it is something to strive for.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 4:29 PM
Noah, your situation reminds me of what happened on the Kathy Griffin board during its peak. She occasionally surprised posters with private phone calls and made them feel special. You’re in the cross hairs, but you are strong enough to take it.
I am happy for the soon to be new addition to your family. Our two children came when we were married eleven and thirteen years respectively. One of my favorite times was when I had sole care of the children in winter when my wife taught school and farm work was slow.
I know our children are mine because I trust my wife and because they look like me. I sent them into a strange world of lint bugs who built cabins and roads in their hair and of Cousin Royster who my wife squashed when he ventured out onto our daughter’s nose. We had a a community of characters like Mr. Hand, Mr Stomach, Cousin Bird, and the most dangerous of all, Slime Mold. Each one was like paper, scissors, rock with a a type of immunity from aspects of the others. We had odd Hee Man and Shera stories and Carebear the Dentist which I told the children when I drove them to pre- school.
Years later, when our daughter suffered from hand and mouth disease while in college, she wanted my wife to tell her an Egbert story to comfort her.
Child and parenthood never end. Sometimes our daughter calls me on her way home from work and says “I’m bored. Entertain me.” Last fall, she called and said “Thank you for feeding me and giving me a home all of those years.”
That’s what you and the others beginning parenthood have to look forward to. Enjoy it, because it goes fast.
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By: James on January 26, 2011
at 4:15 PM
I just have one question for Noah and his ilk.
If you find M&H’s blog sooooooooooo distasteful and everyone who posts here simple sheep, why do you participating?
There are thousands of blogs out there. One or two might meet your intellectual standards. There is nothing forcing you to continuely read and post @ M&H’s is there?
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By: lori on January 26, 2011
at 4:06 PM
Special note if Jack is the Texas jack I did not agree with his previous posts just the sheep one. I understand I sometimes come off as combative but I hope never intentionally cruel. I have no “personal” issues with anyone on here and politics should never be personal.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 3:55 PM
Well said Jack. I wasn’t aware people were getting banned for having a different opinion. My once thought lowest possible opinion has somehow managed to drop another notch. Can’t imagine I will be allowed much longer as well. If I should be banned I will not bother to try to return so if I suddenly stop posting that will be why. Nothing short of what will end my participation on these boards.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 3:52 PM
Jack, Jackson, Jackson Texas, Jackson on, whoever you are, you’re really the saddest kind of troll there is. I actually feel a little bit sorry for you, with all that trolling for attention. If your life was a little more fulfilling, you might not waste your time ripping at others. You want to choose life, great, choose to live your own and quit trying to force your twisted beliefs on others.
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By: Michelle on January 26, 2011
at 3:52 PM
As a guy, I have one thing to say: I have no say whatsoever.
Even if it might be my child being carried, who’s carrying it? Not me, not you, not Helen, not Noah, not Rick, not anyone else, but the pregnant woman. I may or may not agree with the decision, but you know what? I HAVE NO SAY WHATSOEVER.
And I’ve made my peace with that.
And I only wish that others would too.
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By: JonC on January 26, 2011
at 3:51 PM
Noah, if we don’t legislate by the worst possible scenario, then we risk families like mine suffering needlessly to appease the religious beliefs of others. Our case is quite a bit more common than you seem to think. Its less the exception and more the norm, especially now when more women are having children later in life. When we met the doctor that performed the D&E, she was an incredibly compassionate person who understood that this was probably the most difficult choice we’d ever have to make in our lives. She also made it clear we certainly weren’t her only patients in this position. I can’t imagine how much worse it would have been without someone like her available.
Besides, if you believe truly that God makes all life sacred from conception, and that abortion is an ultimate wrong, then you must also believe that God is evil. 40% of all pregnancies result in miscarriage in the first trimester, most before the woman even knows she’s pregnant. Often a woman miscarries and the fetus simply won’t detach from the uterus. Then a D&C, which is usually the common form of abortion, becomes a necessity. When you see statistics on abortion, what you are seeing is the total sum of all D&Cs and D&Es, which include a surprising number of stories like ours.
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By: Michelle on January 26, 2011
at 3:48 PM
“Supurb” education, hey? Public education – ala Roe V. Wade. Comedy gold.
I will tell you that the Bible is indeed “superb”, but the resident talent on this particular site “ain’t.” All those doctors and lawyers, CPAs and whatever other professional geniuses that gather here, might want to sue to their previous instructors for gross negligence.
You gaggle of bleating sheep posing as educated sophisticates do give me a good laugh – much needed humor. Most of you live in a bubble, your real religion progressive politics, and most of you couldn’t think yourselves out of a wet paper bag. But women, even really despicable ones, are both more humorous and more vicious than most men. You’re so easy to pick on; such low hanging fruit.
It’s a shame they feel the need to censor me Noah. If it wasn’t such a pain in the ass to post, I’d join up with you and take all of them on. And their faces (and their asses) would be fire engine red by the time I was through with them.
This is shooting fish in a barrel.
Good luck Noah convincing the depraved of just how confused they really are about much of anything.
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By: Jack on January 26, 2011
at 3:38 PM
Debbie maybe you found that to be an option for you. That is not something we would ever consider but it is an idea I had never considered. Hope that works out for you.
Susan, like most of your fellow sheep I find you to be callous and cruel.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 3:29 PM
Noah? After 7 years of trying?? Did you finally keep your mouth shut for a change and concentrate on what you were doing???
That poor baby…what a great burden she will have to endure having a wad of a father like you. Poor, poor child…
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By: Susan on January 26, 2011
at 3:20 PM
Helen again you are wonderful. You manage to say much nicer what many of us think and want to say. I too wish we could get you on a daily basis.
Reading these posts I see the difference in peoples feelings have a lot to do with there religious beliefs and I think also they way they were raised and educated. It is a shame that in this country we do not offer a supurb education that is based in truth to all. Too often the heavy bible belt offers textbooks with falsehoods in them and we know that many religions do not tell there flocks the full truth.
I have one semi funny comment to make. When this “fetus”, “child” “zygot” or “alien” is growing in me and is at the stage where it has gills and a tail is it allright if I abort it at that point since it sure dont look human to me!!!!! Would it breath air or water????
By the way Noah your sureness that the child is yours and you would “know” makes me laugh. There have been many studies done on how a fertile married women married to a good provider will get pregnate by a man who would provide better genes to the child and never tell her husband. The feeling is that in many cases the women is not even doing it on purpose. Maybe its just nature trying to continue the species with the best genepool. hahaha…some of you guys need to jump out of the pool. Another ledersheep!!!!
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By: Debbie on January 26, 2011
at 3:18 PM
Let me restate that a little better. We should not legislate based on situations that are not typical of what most people encounter, ie the norm
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 3:18 PM
Michelle, I would never wish your situation upon anyone. What you went through occupies my thoughts daily and keeps me up at night. We haven’t had a girl born in our family, out to first cousins, for 27 years, so we were hoping for a girl. But really I would be happy with anything as long as they baby came out healthy. In your situation I probably would have made the choice to abort.
My point in what I am saying is that yours is a special circumstance and that we should not legislate law based on situations like yours.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 3:16 PM
Noah…really, nobody cares…you are missing the whole point.
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By: Tina on January 26, 2011
at 3:16 PM
Jill wrote
“I do hope Noah “who seems to totally understand pregnancy because his wife is 7 months pregnant” will be up all night (every night) for feedings, changing diapers, colic for the next 2 years or more. I hope Noah will be up all the nights past that for ear infections, croup and can’t breathe without steam and every school assignment. Sorry, Noah but no more football and hanging with your buds now. You have decided life is so precious that you have signed on to handling every detail of your child’s development now. I see that as only fair since you can’t really get pregnant but seem to think you understand women and what they go through.
I know your type Noah. They enjoy screwing around and don’t want to be tied down, but once it happens, they feel differently about abortion, somehow it isn’t right anymore.”
Not that it is any of your business and as if you could possibly know any of this drivel that your spouting. My wife is due at the end of April. That happens to coincide with the end of the winter semester. I have already taken a year of absence and in August my wife will return to her new career in accounting while I remain at home for the next 8 months and we will use that in-between time to evaluate what we will do from there. I don’t follow much sports other than to watch the Lions lose, which builds character. My wife is the center of my existence as I am sure my daughter will be. I wouldn’t dream of missing anything, including those 2am feedings. I understand being the kind of person you are how this concept might seem alien to you but to me it is nothing extraordinary or special, it is what a father is supposed to do.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 3:11 PM
Noah, I hope you’ll never have to make a decision like ours. We had to choose not between life and death, but between death and suffering before death. There was no question that our baby would not live outside the womb. Should we then have made the non-abortive choice to deliver to term a baby we knew would never draw a breath of her own? Our baby had a heartbeat in utero, but was not even brain-dead, she was never brain-alive. Where does that fit into your neat little no situational ethics world?
Please know, I had always been of the opinion before this that while I was pro-choice for others, I had always believed that if given any choice, I could not have an abortion for myself. We were always willing to take any baby we could that would survive, they could have told us she’d be a vegetable and we’d have kept her. But that wasn’t a choice either. Would you encourage your wife to carry your baby to term, knowing that there was 0 chance that the baby would live? I couldn’t ask my wife to suffer needlessly for up to three more months like that, and run even more chance of her risking her own life. I love her too much to lose her that way, and this way we can try again to expand our family.
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By: Michelle on January 26, 2011
at 3:09 PM
Jackson hole, you are a complete idiot.
Noah, a close second.
See the humor in Margaret & Helen’s writing. THAT is what is so amazing here. If you AGREE with what they say then great. If you don’t that is fine too. Just realize that you are fortunate enough to see the work of someone with an incredible gift. That gift is her ability to WRITE.
It really is very simple…sort of like Jackson hole.
🙂
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By: Tina on January 26, 2011
at 3:02 PM
James I do feel kind of honored, a bit in the cross-hares but nice to see they are at least reading what is posted.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 3:01 PM
By the way for the record my above post was my first..seems my online stalker has returned posting in my name. I just not took the time to real all the above posts as I did not see this one till it was well underway. That said.
A poster wrote…But noah lets say you lost your job, with health benefits and your unemployment ran out. Your wife got pregnant with a 5th child because she did not have the money for birth control or it was an accident. Your about to lose your house because you can’t pay the mortgage.
Then ask yourself what you and your wife would do. What makes it right for rick perry and the government to interfere in you and your wife’s choices? Is it religious persecution? Because really, your’s, mine and rick perry’s religious dictates may not be the same.
Why does he believe that abortion is wrong, but the death penalty is right?
I do not have situational ethics and nor should anyone in my opinion. What I believe is right or wrong stays that way. If we were to be blessed with another child its life should not hang in the balance because if would make my life more difficult, or if life threw me a curve ball or I was currently having financial difficulty. I believe what I believe in and I don’t change that belief simply to make my life easier. Shouldn’t you too?
And since this is a new post I will restate what I wrote in the previous post so it is clear for everyone involved. I am pro choice because I do not believe the decision belongs in the hands of the federal government. I believe that life starts at the same place as life ends. A person is considered legally dead when there is no brain activity and I believe the first time we can measure brain activity in a fetus is in the 3rd month. 3 months is enough time to allow the mother to make a choice and I feel after that time the child’s rights in most cases trump that of the mothers. Where the mothers life is at risk would be valid reason to warrant special consideration.
For myself it is not an path I would considered under almost any circumstances. I believe in sex education. I believe in groups that work with women with either choice they might make. I believe in doing anything that lifts the veil of ignorance and allow someone to make an informed decision. I know people who deeply regret getting abortions. To them I would like for them to have had all their options presented to them including an ultrasound. I want someone to stand up and speak for the child who cannot speak for itself. I feel that many of you give the unborn child no rights and do not want anyone to be their voice, with this i adamantly disagree.
I disagree with many of you who feel the man had nothing to do with the pregnancy and has no say whatsoever in the conversation to abort or not to abort. It takes two to tango kids. Because the woman is the one who has to carry the majority of the burden I give her a 60%-40% say in the final decision. But to suggest just because I am a man I do not deserve a say is ludicrous.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 2:56 PM
Noah, frankly, why would you bother to argue with a political satirist? All of us here are adults, we’ve had years to determine we are pro choice, Helen’s opinion on this subject has absolutely no influence on us, we made up our minds years ago. As to the rights of the embryo or fetus, I don’t know of any way they can communicate complex thoughts. For the same reason, children don’t really have rights either, I think there is even a conservative group campaigning to make sure children have no rights what so ever, you can look that up for yourself.
I am thrilled you and your wife are expecting a much desired child and I sincerely wish your wife and infant a healthy delivery. No one here is telling your wife what to do with her body, nor would we tell any woman what to do with her womb, it is her business. We know when to butt out of other people’s personal business, that is all that pro choice is, the protection of the individual directly concerned to make decisions concerning their own life.
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By: No one's puppet on January 26, 2011
at 2:50 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Oh my sides hurt, I cannot believe the words coming out of your mouth TEX.
“Your goal is not to bring people together to work out our differences but rather to destroy your opponents utterly and wipe them from the face of the earth. Tell me what is gained by all the hate and name calling? Tell me what is gained by not entertaining the ideologies from a diverse group of people and coming up with a solution that everyone can live with? I eagerly await your response”
As Alive and well says, you come in here (as usual) blazing away calling names and insulting people. Then you ask why Helen can’t “listen” to opinions from a diverse group!!!
Tex… This IS a diverse group, we are expressing our opinions. Get a clue. This particular subject is never going to be solved as long as the religous right and men keep trying to make it illegal again. You say you respect women, maybe you should start listening to them. Now, I for one am back to ignoring you. Scroll, baby scroll!
Alive and well, You go Girl!!!!
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By: Mikat on January 26, 2011
at 2:46 PM
Wow….”Jackson Texas” and “Noah”…could there be any two larger jackasses in this world or what?? I think the “Mr. Michelle” comment pretty much lets us know what kind of small minded person we are dealing with here. Sad.
Jackson… there is a whole big world out there FULL of wonderful and exciting things. Why don’t you go out there….keep your mouth shut….and learn something.
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By: Sharon on January 26, 2011
at 2:31 PM
Rick Perry and the rest of the right wing ilk are all for forcing women to bear children that they then aren’t prepared to help. Women and girls end pregnancies because they have been raped, have been the victims of incest, are too young to be responsible mothers or who went to schools that believe in “abstinence only) (how far did that get you, Bristol?), have too many children already with partners who won’t use birth control, are going to bear children with horrendous birth defects, the list goes on and on.
Rich Perry and the rest of the right wing ilk think their duty stop at the delivery room door. They are against any government program that might, just might, support that new life they hold so holy. Foods stamps? Head start? Universal health care? Effective sex education in the schools? Nah, forget it, that’s all socialism. And while they’re at it in Texas, where they claim life is so holy, line up for the next state sanctioned murder, I mean execution.
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By: K2inSF on January 26, 2011
at 2:30 PM
Oh, and a warm thank you to delurkergurl, who clearly does get that life isn’t black and white.
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By: Michelle on January 26, 2011
at 2:27 PM
Wow, “Mr. Michelle”. Thanks Jackson, for your obvious homophobia on top of your disdain for others with stories that don’t fit into your neat box. You should be ashamed of yourself. You clearly won’t be doing so anytime soon, but I hope some day you find out what the real cost of life is before it is too late for you. Currently you’re the worst sort of bottom feeder.
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By: Michelle on January 26, 2011
at 2:24 PM
My comments above apply to Noah as well.
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By: Alive and Well on January 26, 2011
at 2:20 PM
Jackson says, “Frankly, I don’t damn what you think of me. ”
Frankly, Jackson, we don’t give a damn nor a flying boink what you have to say. Your comments aren’t made in the spirit of thoughtful and friendly debate on the issues presented in this blog. You arrived here on your high horse of hatred and imperialistic judgement, and you have reaped that which you have sown. Many of us here are learned people. We are doctors, lawyers, and CPAs as well as mothers, daughters, fathers, sons, brothers and sisters. We are housewives and marketing executives, entrepeneurs, farmers and CEOs. Our collective life experiences represent a level of wisdom far beyond the drivel, bile and wisecracks you have given us so far. Pardon us if we fail to see the merit of your comments.
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By: Alive and Well on January 26, 2011
at 2:19 PM
Interesting post to say the least. First bit of substance I’ve seen from the ultra left to date, despite all the sarcasm.
First off my baby so far is very healthy thank you for asking. The baby is a girl and after 12 years of marriage and 7 years of trying this is our first.
As I stated in one of my posts my beliefs are for the typical pregnant woman. Helen, you are either very intelligent and calculated or not so smart and short sighted. To base your entire argument on such a small percentage of the population that are abused, raped or what have you is ridiculous. Most women who get pregnant did not get raped. Most women do not face death by giving birth. We make our laws typically to deal with what is normal. not what happens to 1 in 10000. That does not mean that 1 in 10000 doesn’t warrant consideration mind you.
Helen, the unborn child has to have some rights and have someone champion their cause and their best interest if we are to consider ourselves a moral people. You may be able to easily dismiss that life because you cannot see or hear it. I do not have to see it to say that it has value, sometimes potential is enough to warrant consideration. By all means explain to all of us why you feel these unborn children deserve no rights and should be put to death without thought or consideration.
As to the sheep, I fully stand by what I believe on this topic. They are indeed sheep. They believe what you tell them to believe. They are unable to articulate why on any level why they agree with you other than that you said it so it must be so. When I challenge any of them to justify why they believe what they believe, they do what both you and Margaret do, they slander and attack the offender personally rather than say anything of substance. You and your sheep have no tolerance for anyone’s opinion other than your own. You sit on your high horse and pass judgment on others rather than engage in civilized discourse. If you conducted your marriages like you do with people you politically disagree with, I have no doubt you have been married a number of times, or not at all. You are unable to argue without hate and you cannot compromise or find anything of merit or value with anyone who doesn’t think as you do.
In my opinion your bigoted and hateful. You offer nothing constructive to the political arena and you encourage hate mongering. Your goal is not to bring people together to work out our differences but rather to destroy your opponents utterly and wipe them from the face of the earth. Tell me what is gained by all the hate and name calling? Tell me what is gained by not entertaining the ideologies from a diverse group of people and coming up with a solution that everyone can live with? I eagerly await your response.
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By: Noah on January 26, 2011
at 2:09 PM
The Republicans and Tea Party are always against BIG Government intruding in our lives.
That is unless it is for something they want…like Stopping Abortions or not allowing Gays to marry.
Oh yea and they are SOOOO concerned about the deficit… but let’s give the rich a tax break….because as a friend of mine said….they need it because a million dollars isn’t what it use to be!!!
What bunch of hypocrites.
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By: Dave Texas on January 26, 2011
at 1:54 PM
Jackson, your ignorance and lack of empathy is astounding.
You’ll forgive me if I find the charges about “my lack of empathy” from those proponents who slaughter unborn children under the guise of “choice” a tad disingenuous.
Frankly, I don’t damn what you think of me. I find the propaganda here the most vile, the lies outrageous and unsupportable, your choice of venue sick, and the crowd you run with here sheer evil. And I’m not letting some of these gutless wonders hide behind their censorship without facing the truth. The lies about abortion have gone on for too long and unchallenged. Most of you in this room don’t have a clue to the science or the real statistics and choose to live in the dark with the rest of the roaches.
But if you have indeed been party to a tragic loss of the unborn, then I am sorry for your loss – and that is sincere. My comments are not directed at you or to you. I could offer words of support in your loss, but they would fall on deaf ears if this is your caliber of folk. You would be incapable of understanding what I was trying to tell you.
However Mr. Michelle, that does not excuse using abortion as birth control, most of which preys on the poor and the ignorant, and that is exactly what most abortion is. It demeans our country, and it cheapens life. And the results are out there in all their glory for the world to see. Abortion was sold on a lie of assuring “all children will be wanted.” And we’ve seen the end results of public schools as war zones, teenage suicide rampant, gangs of thugs roaming the streets, and children born out of wedlock skyrocket in every creed and color. You want to go after these despicable sperm donors who make babies, then don’t bother to support them? I’m your best ally ladies and you have my complete support. Many of them would hang by the gonads if I had my way with them, and at the very least they’d be financially culpable for their remaining days.
But my support stops there and I will not condone one that didn’t ask to be brought into this world to die for your cause of convenience.
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By: Jackson Texas on January 26, 2011
at 1:53 PM
Dear Lord, please keep government out of my vagina.
AMEN.
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By: palinshutup on January 26, 2011
at 1:44 PM
The governor’s interest in that child ends once it’s born, doesn’t it, Helen? What does he say about health care for the child, about parental leave, about early childhood education funding, about nutrition? And what if that child (gasp!) turns out to be homosexual? How does the guv feel about it then?
I’m with you. Until we women have the right to decide when men should be neutered, they shouldn’t be allowed to make decisions about our vaginas.
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By: merrilymarylee on January 26, 2011
at 1:36 PM
I guess I shouldn’t have called out Michelle specifically – I’m sorry for all of you who suffered such heartbreak.
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By: delurkergurl on January 26, 2011
at 1:33 PM
Michelle, I’m sorry for your horrific loss.
Please ignore ‘Jackson Texas’ (and any of his many alter-egos). It’s the only thing that seems to work.
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By: delurkergurl on January 26, 2011
at 1:31 PM
BTW, my wife is a frequent reader of this blog, and the one who pointed this post to me. I hope you understand that she’s the most important thing in the world to me, and your insults to our small tragedy put me in a fighting mood. You have no idea whatsoever what we’ve been through, and no idea how much your “propaganda” comment rips at a wound that still isn’t healed.
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By: Michelle on January 26, 2011
at 1:25 PM
Jackson, your ignorance and lack of empathy is astounding. As for your rude comments about propaganda, go bleep yourself. I’m sure you’ve managed it at least twice today. Here, will this suffice as proof to you?
http://mommyormama.blogspot.com/
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By: Michelle on January 26, 2011
at 1:20 PM
Well Dr. Vinaigrette, one thing is for certain. Whatever you have your “Doctorate” (cough cough) in, let us pray it is not in the hard sciences. You still don’t have it right. (mtDNA) Maybe before you pretend to be something you are not, you should give thought to who may be sitting on the other end of the keyboard. Think about next time you come explaining basic biology to me.
I do think you’re a fraud, as do I most of this propaganda here about all of these supposed late-term deformations and sad, sad stories I’m reading. I think it far more likely what we have here are a bunch of assistants to abortion providers to justify the death, all under the euphemism “choice.”
If the results weren’t so tragic, I could actually laugh at loud about “choice”, being there is no choice for the aborted. These stories remind me of those “back alley abortions” where thousands of women died each year from hangers – until the Dr. who coined the phrase admitted he made it up.
How would that be? I think what is at stake here, besides about 1,000,000 babies a year, disproportionately minority I might add, is your ability to ignore the obvious – you take extreme cases and normalize it – sheer propaganda.
Your open contempt for women makes you unfit, in my opinion, to be the judge of what I decide about my personal private uterus, and that is true for any woman: you can’t justify your intervention in what is the most private space, and the most private relationship, a person can have.
My open contempt “for women” is 23 years of marriage, never divorced, and two grown daughters who are the apple of my eye. Throw in Dear Old Mom, and those are my four favorite people on earth. What was it about contempt for women again?
What I do have contempt for are liars, especially in issues of life and death. And this blog is chock full of the most rank.
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By: Jackson Texas on January 26, 2011
at 1:10 PM
Margaret,
A friend of mine was murdered because he fought for women’s rights to decide when and whether to have children. His motto was “Trust Women”
What he meant by that was that the decision to abort a pregnancy is never easy and never cavalier. Women agonize over this. When they finally do reach a decision – we should trust them – trust that they have done the best they can.
As for heartbeats and sonograms – I have been helping women to have abortions or healthy children most of my adult life. I am a nurse practitioner and have seen the sorrow and the joy on both sides of this issue.
No woman seeking an abortion has ever come to me requesting that some “tissue” be removed from her uterus. She knows if she leaves it be it will eventually become a baby. It is insulting to all women and their partners to suggest that if they just think.’oh, yeah, this is going to be my child’ that they will not want to abort. This idiot governor must be a real kick for all the women in his life. Let’s hope the child born is a son and not a daughter.
I find is very interesting that after 38 yrs of legal abortion in our country that the anti-choice people still do not see the validity of the other side of the coin. The pro-choice folk go out of their way to accomodate the other side and defend their right to disagree. Have never heard of a pro-choice person killing an anti-choice person, have you?
A wise person once told me that the depth of your conviction has nothing to do with its veracity. I believe that. And keep hoping that all these radicals on the right will come to accept that my differing with them is not tantamount to heresy.
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By: Gail on January 26, 2011
at 11:20 AM
I caught a puck at a hockey game once.
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By: Stuart on January 26, 2011
at 10:55 AM
My wonderful wife and I have been trying to have a baby for nearly two years. Early on we had a “chemical pregnancy” which we really only knew about because we were testing incessantly. That ended in a very early miscarriage.
Last year, we were expecting a baby girl in early November. All the genetic tests and ultrasounds up through 21 weeks were perfect. Kicking, moving up a storm, beautiful heartbeat that we bought a monitor for just so we could listen to at home. No one ever questioned our desire to have this child we obviously wanted so badly. At 22 weeks, we returned for a follow-up ultrasound, which revealed that at some point the brain had been severely damaged to a point that existence outside the womb was not going to happen.
We were presented with two choices–carry the baby the remaining 3 months and a week to term to deliver her only so she could immediately die, or quickly choose to have an abortion (D&E). We are incredibly lucky, we have really great health insurance, so we were able to do testing that is cost-prohibitive for most, including a fetal MRI. It was conclusive that while we could feel this fetus kicking, moving, and she had a strong heartbeat, that she would never survive either way. We made the heart-wrenching decision (as if there really was a choice in the matter) to terminate the pregnancy at 23 weeks. Thankfully we had done an IUI in a doctor’s office, so we knew the exact gestation, as the fetus was very large in ultrasound and would have otherwise been listed as closer to 25 weeks, eliminating any legal ability to terminate in our state. We still want very much to be parents, and are still actively trying, despite our crushing disappointment.
So yes, now I’ve been on the other side of this argument personally. Those who think that having a child is a quick and easy decision are either blind or simply too stupid to know better. There are a myriad of reasons for abortion that don’t involve rape or the health of the mother. So please, Rick Perry, understand that we heard the heartbeat of our fetus over and over, reveled in the joy it brought us, then still had to face the ugly reality of abortion. Noah, same goes for you. You’re lucky, you don’t have to face a horrible decision like this. I bet it sure made your arrogant and self-serving comments easier for you to spew, not really understanding the entire picture.
And as always, thank you Helen for a thought-provoking and incredibly spot-on blog post.
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By: Michelle on January 26, 2011
at 10:35 AM
When I was 20 weeks along in a very wanted pregnancy, we found out during a routine ultrasound that the baby had a large arachnoid cyst on his brain and as a result, it was believed that he was missing the left side of his brain as well as his corpus callosum (a band of nerves in the center of the brain that allows the right and left hemispheres to communicate). As you can imagine, we were devastated.
We met with specialist after specialist who told us that if the baby survived the pregnancy, he would most likely never be able to hold his own head up, roll over, smile, recognize us, etc. He would never walk or talk. He would probably need a breathing tube as well as a feeding tube. The list just went on and on and we were told repeatedly that our best option was to terminate. Well, after lots of tears and conversations that lasted late into the night, we decided to continue the pregnancy.
Please read that sentence again and really take in what I am saying:
WE decided to continue the pregnancy. We CHOSE not to terminate.
People seem to forget that the Pro-Choice means exactly that: the right to choose to be a parent. Parenting a special needs child was a decision made by us – not the government, not the church and certainly not some random guy on the internet who has no idea what he’s talking about.
My son is doing very well, I love him beyond description and I’m glad that he’s here. He’s confounds his doctors will all that he is able to do. That being said, I am extremely grateful that my husband and I were given the right to decide for ourselves whether or not we could handle this – and I think we are better parents because of it. I can’t imagine how angry and resentful I would have felt it if someone had forced us into this.
I know what I wrote isn’t going to change anyone’s mind and I really don’t care. I will continue to support and fight for the right to choose, all the while knowing how lucky I am that I had the opportunity to exercise that right.
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By: J O'C on January 26, 2011
at 9:57 AM
Great job Helen!
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By: RGT on January 26, 2011
at 9:28 AM
Brava, Brava!
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By: Dragonpuff on January 26, 2011
at 9:21 AM
Oh, and this is from the mother of 2 wonderful children. Both pregnancies I was taking high dose BCP – they do not work for me. And yes, we do have open and frank discussions about sex and sexuality.
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By: Kelly Glover on January 26, 2011
at 9:19 AM
Something no one here seemed to post. I have had insurance through my husband and through jobs I have had. The majority of times that the insurance has been through one company (CIGNA) I could not get any form of birth control covered nor could I have a doctor’s visit where birth control was dispensed covered. BUT, it would cover pre natal care. I ask these questions – how many work for companies that use CIGNA because it is the least expensive out there? How many realize that these policies are generally the ones that are offered to those on the bottom of the pay scale who cannot afford to pay out of pocket for birth control? But these policies will pay for viagra, cialis, etc.
If we want to lower the rate of abortion we need to:
1 Offer complete and full sex education in schools – cover it all, how pregnancy happens, how to prevent it, how to prevent STDs. Do not just skim it quick and say do not have sex.
2 Make sure that birth control is fully discussed in sex education classes – all forms, debunk the myths of first time you cannot get pregnant, etc., teach how often each form can fail.
3 Teach the consequences – psychological, physical, societal – of having sex before you really are ready.
4 Teach children to respect themselves and others – no means no, you have control of your body, it is not another’s decision to make for you.
5 Teach that discussions about sex are not “dirty” and need to happen.
Do you see a theme? We need to teach. Not just kids but adults, too. There is no way to get the rate to zero – rape happens (it shouldn’t but it does), accidents happen, incest happens (see comment on rape), horrid birth defects happen. But, with education we can reduce the rate.
No one has the right to make the decision for another on whether or not to terminate a pregnancy. It is a personal choice. It should not be mandated or law that this choice cannot be made. If you are anti abortion than do not have one, but, do not tell another that she must make the same choices you would make. You may one day find the shoe on the other foot about a different choice. Once laws are made that chip away at personal rights it becomes easier to take away more and more rights.
Thanks for letting me ramble and vent. Hope that some of this made sense.
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By: Kelly Glover on January 26, 2011
at 9:16 AM
Jackson is “Tex”. Hey, Tex, still spreading that special kind of hate around. God, you are *BORING*. You just can’t help yourself, can you.
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By: Mikat on January 26, 2011
at 9:15 AM
I AGREE WITH YOU 100% ..
CAN YOU ADDRESS THE ISSUE OF THE ALABAMA GOVERNOR AND HIS SPEECH ON HOW HE WILL TREAT THE PEOPLE IF THEY DON’T BELIEVE AS HE DOES?
What happened to the separation of church and state? Did I miss something HELP
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By: VIE on January 26, 2011
at 9:06 AM
Helen, you are an absolute scream! I LOVE you and your incredible talent to write and to be funny at the same time. You are a treasure!
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By: Loretta in LA on January 26, 2011
at 8:48 AM
Jackson….95% of all abortions are performed because people forgot to use birth control? Seriously? I’d really like a link to the site where you got that mis-information. With the number of young women who get cancer (breast, skin, ovary, uterine, lung and thyroid cancers to name a few) on the rise, you really still believe that 95% of all abortions are because the woman doesn’t want the fetus? Your ignorance astounds me. There has been a significant rise in breast cancer with women who are pregnant, especially. You can’t get adequate treatment for cancer when you are expecting. Chemo and Radiation are likely to cause severe physical issues in the fetus….if it doesn’t outright kill them. So I’ll ask again…when does the life of the fetus become more important than the life of the woman carrying it?
And Noah….You are right. The baby is most likely yours. Although why a woman in her right mind would actually let you near her is beyond me. BUT you wouldn’t know for sure. You can’t sense these things. Men across the country are raising children that aren’t theirs and they have no idea. Unless, of course, you have ESP, as well and can communicate with the fetus.
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By: Katrina in Ohio on January 26, 2011
at 8:32 AM
Honestly, what is it with guys and details? It is so obvious that Perry’s idea is totally police state in nature. It involves so much force! Do their eyes glaze over and the mind just snap shut when they encounter in writing just how all of Perry’s Plan will be done? Can they ever envision something of the same happening to them such as making “snipping” illegal? I also still cannot understand why so many men of all income levels are totally besotted with only 2% of a woman’s body and its functionality. Their obsession results in looking like perversion!
And, hey, how many medicos are going to cooperate? This is an enormous invasion of the privacy between doctor and patient. Taking bets now on how soon Perry’s Plan ends up in court.
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By: Mageen in Old Virginny on January 26, 2011
at 8:27 AM
Kitty, thanks for the history lesson. Thanks to you, I’m more sure the family actually reads what we post.
Fiona, I agree with the PFessor. My wife and I felt trapped, and we thought an abortion was the only way we could live what we had planned. We weren’t even living in the United States. We talked about it for a week, and the scenery you described is familiar. Then, we learned it was a false alarm.
We lost a baby, and when the children passed milestones like proms, graduations, and weddings we quietly marked what might have been for our little son who never got the chance to live. Given our personalities, we would have felt similarily for an aborted baby in addition to massive guilt, but we would have done it anyway.
It was like my military experiences. I had to plan the murder of my enemies to save myself. It was contrary to everything my parents had taught me, but I wanted to live. I regard an abortion in similar fashion. when the physical, emotional, or other aspects of the mother’s survival is in question. Sometimes a life must end so another can survive.
I was taught that from the beginning, the first cells are separate from the mother’s. They are not her cells. The unborn baby is essentially a parasite. That the baby trends toward female in the first weeks is because the basic mammilian condition is female. Things like hormones must be added to create a male.
At least one doctor said pain killers should be administered when performing later abortions so the baby doesn’t suffer. Please, Jackson, PFessor, or anyone else with more knowledge about this than I. Is what I read right or wrong?
I agree with PFessor about Craig and others. Having a contrary opinion doesn’t make him evil. After the Tucson shooting, Obama and our Congressional leaders have made civility a major issue. Surely we can practice it too. We have done pretty well since the first of the year.
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By: James on January 26, 2011
at 8:13 AM
mDNA, my apologies there – that was a slip of the fingertips.
You wrote loosely about “living” so I simply applied that word to other aspects of what different specialists refer to as living.
Jackson, that’s Dr. Vinaigrette Girl to you, and if you can’t argue your points without name-calling, you’re not doing a good job. but this isn’t a pissing contest, and I congratulate you on your vocabulary.
The issue in law is “Who has the say over terminating a pregnancy”, and frankly, your failure to deal with the Carder case shows your inability to grasp the clear issue at hand: who decides, the woman or the courts?
Your open contempt for women makes you unfit, in my opinion, to be the judge of what I decide about my personal private uterus, and that is true for any woman: you can’t justify your intervention in what is the most private space, and the most private relationship, a person can have.
Or, I have an idea: can the state insist you give up a kidney to donate to someone who is a good match, to save their life? Why not? Would that violate your ownership of your body and your right to decide what happens to it? you’re just a kidney-carrier to someone who needs what you have, you know. No big deal. Life is precious.
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By: Vinaigrette Girl on January 26, 2011
at 8:05 AM
Any good pie recipes, anyone?
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By: Hilda on January 26, 2011
at 7:52 AM
Chelsea, you do realize that you can’t just walk into a clinic and get a late term (or saline, as you called it) abortion just any old time you feel like it, right? My niece was pregnant with her second child and the doctor gave her a sonogram early on to determine her due date. He then decided that he would hold off until her 7th month to do another one. It was a terrible mistake on his part, because when he finally did one, he discovered that her baby didn’t have the top part of it’s skull and the brain wasn’t developing. Anencephaly. Her baby might have lived 48 hours at the most. Most likely it wouldn’t survive the birthing process ….if it made it that far. She made a heartbreaking decision to terminate. She knew she couldn’t go through the birth and hold that baby when it was just going to die…possibly in her arms. No way do I want someone up in her business telling her she shouldn’t oughtn’t, can’t, take matters into her own hands. She had to jump through hoops to even have the process done at that late of a date. But she had a medical reason and eventually was permitted to have the procedure.
Another lady I know had cancer. She found out she was pregnant with child #4 and refused to abort, even though she couldn’t get treatment while she was pregnant. She died when that baby was 4 months old. Left her husband to raise 4 kids without a mother. That was her decision, but I wouldn’t risk my life to bring another child into this world, especially when I had three other kids that were depending on me being there to raise them. So when does the life of a fetus become more important than a person who is already alive and breathing?
And another thing I just don’t understand…republicans are pro-death penalty, anti-abortion and they thump their Bibles which have contradicting messages. Thou shalt not kill they neighbor and and eye for an eye is just one example. Never did quite understand that one. If they were truly pro-life, then they wouldn’t be pro-death penalty. And I don’t want to hear the argument that the people in jail are bad people and deserve to die. Because at one time, those people were nothing but a fetus and many were abused as children and lived in dismal circumstances. Raised by women who should never have had a child. Raised by mothers who couldn’t afford health care, education and some that had no intention of providing it in the first place. What if…just what if….their mothers had chosen abortion?
I also grew up in a home where I wasn’t wanted. My mom is an alcoholic and she’s bi-polar. She told me when I was 14 that the reason she didn’t abort me was so she could get more welfare money. Let me tell you…at that point, I wish she had done the deed. My childhood was hell.
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By: Katrina in Ohio on January 26, 2011
at 7:36 AM
[…] Margaret, I read the comment you sent me and felt compelled to respond. I know you don’t like it when I do, but honey you know how I feel about this particular subject. Dear Readers, In case you are new to my web page blog, I'll give you a little background. I told my friend Margaret that I thought Sarah Palin was a bitch… is a bitch. Anyway, my grandson really hadn't fully explained to me that other people could see this page besides Margar … Read More […]
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By: Sometimes men should just stick to football… but I digress (via Margaret and Helen) « Taking Stock on January 26, 2011
at 7:31 AM
Great post, Helen!
Nelda 6:51, laughing my ass off!!
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By: Leigh M. on January 26, 2011
at 7:30 AM
🙂
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By: Cynthia Valdez on January 26, 2011
at 7:28 AM
I love you, Margaret!
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By: Phyllis on January 26, 2011
at 7:27 AM
Helen, you are a very funny lady. Smart…but funny as hell.
🙂
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By: Mika on January 26, 2011
at 7:21 AM
V. Girl,
I love it when ‘pseudo’ college cadets start this type of argument, because your ignorance is so easy to expose. Time and length don’t permit me to humiliate your ignorance, so I’ll keep this brief. Because this blog and its owners are the most unedifying, most immoral blog I’ve ever read. Like I said, this one is straight out of Nazi Germany and Margaret Sanger’s Court of opinion.
Your biology wouldn’t pass 8th grade and is basic in nature. That might impress the women here, but I’m laughing at it. First year biology students learn what you’ve posted. And if somebody taught you Developmental Anatomy, they should immediately be fired. Where do I start?
some of the daughter cells of a fertilised egg become – all going well – a placenta, not a person.
The placenta is part of the developmental process to provide nourishment during gestation, but you obviously are talking out your rear end. Have you never heard of totipotent cells? Do you have any idea what any of the following mean? Germ layer derivatives, trophoblast, hypoblast, epiblast, syncytiotrophoblast, primitive yolk sac, exocoelomic cavity, and the like? I can already tell you the answer. Hell no. I don’t know who you think you’re fooling, but I can tell from reading your screed, biology isn’t your bag. You’re mouthing platitudes you’ve picked up somewhere in the attempt to appear “schooled.”
Now, a virus is “alive”. mRNA, with its daughter-daughter only inheritance, is “alive”.
Good grief. Where do you get your material? MSNBC? NARAL? First the obvious – by definition a virus is not considered “living”. Your analogy sucks. Viruses don’t gestate; they replicate.
the developing fetus would be adversely affected. The “choose life” choice killed both Angela AND the fetus.
Like I said – the ultimate red herring. Tragic, no doubt. But why don’t you ever mention this?
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70I71G20110119
V. Girl, you take the most extreme and heart breaking case and normalize it. I don’t think anybody here is arguing mother vs. child. What do you propose to do in the future when consideration of 45,000,000 babies have been scalded with saline, ripped, dismembered or had their skulls crushed for the sake of convenience? You’re so incredibly dishonest in your arguments under the guise of “choice” and the poor mother, that you’re beyond deceived and have lost site of the fact it is not the mother losing her life in the most cruel ways. You’re clinically insane in your defense.
So for you sake and everyone else here who doesn’t have an advanced degree so I can poke a couple of holes in everyone one of you Planned Parenthood fans can understand.
Fetus. That’s a word you guys like to throw around to smooth the rough edges of what really transpires during an abortion. And what is the etymology of fetus? Do you know V. Girl? I’ll save you the trouble of Googling it.
Fetus – suckling mammal. As in “already born”. Even your semantic games are lies.
So don’t beat around the bush. There’s not an OBGYN not working at an abortion mill around that doesn’t call it baby to the patient. We don’t talk about fetuses when we listen to the heart beat at 10-12 weeks. We ask the mother, “Would you like to hear your baby’s heart beat?”
You can’t justify the insidiousness of the act. Just call yourself abortion on demand proponents and be done with it. But stop with the basic biology lessons, because in your attempt to look intelligent, you look the rube. That’s comic gold – the only comedy here.
P.S. – what in the world are you talking about messenger RNA for V. Girl? LOL! What you just said is not only irrelevant, it made absolutely no sensel. mRNA is part of the translation process of proteins sweetie; that’s basic cell biology. I think you meant mitochondrial DNA which is exclusive inherited from the the mother and is completely irrelevant to the issues we speak. And it is you that might want to brush up a tad on basic biology. You’re light years from speaking about Embryology.
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By: Jackson on January 26, 2011
at 7:17 AM
Thank you, Helen.
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By: jimzmum on January 26, 2011
at 6:58 AM
Frankly I’m surprised Noah was given the opportunity to even get a woman pregnant. Poor dear. Probably snuck up on her.
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By: Nelda on January 26, 2011
at 6:51 AM
p.s. – Jackson, did you know that until a gestational age of circa 14 weeks a fetus is by default female, and that differentiation does not take place at conception? So when you’re talking about how fetal DNA is so different from the carrier’s, when in most cases 50% of the DNA and *all* the mRNA is, you might want to revise your understanding a tadge, if facts are, as you allege, of any importance to you.
My apologies to the family of Angela CARDER. Typo in my comment above.
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By: Vinaigrette Girl on January 26, 2011
at 6:42 AM
Get help, Jackson, and good luck with all that, ok? Bye bye!
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By: Alive and Well on January 26, 2011
at 6:15 AM
Jackson, some of the daughter cells of a fertilised egg become – all going well – a placenta, not a person. Now, a virus is “alive”. mRNA, with its daughter-daughter only inheritance, is “alive”. But neither survives without some kind of gestational carrier, and if you honestly believe that an implanted embryo isn’t part of a woman’s body and without her body it can survive independently, then you misunderstand the basic biology of mammalian reproduction.
Let me refer you to Thornton and Paltrow (1991) Health Span, vol. 8, no. 5, referring to Angela cCder’s case in 1987. “Pro-life” advocates forced her physicians, through a court order, to give her a Caesarian section *against her will*, even though, owing to her previous history of cancer and radical surgery, both she and her husband had opted for a termination of her pregnancy when it was shown that without treatment she would die, and with treatment, the developing fetus would be adversely affected. The “choose life” choice killed both Angela AND the fetus.
In your book, the court decision would be ‘the right one’: I’m sure Angela’s husband and the rest of her family, not to mention Angela herself, would be so very happy to have your moral approval instead of her life.
You have, however, offered no data of any kind to support anything you’ve said about ‘murder’, ‘lies’, and all your other comments. More importantly, you haven’t offered any good moral or theological reason for saying your opinion or beliefs should, in law, be more important than the moral agency and belief system of the gestational carrier.
Judge not, lest ye also be judged, Jackson. Also, I suppose you’ve had your tubes tied so you won’t be in the position of causing an unexpected and unwanted pregnancy; and you’re fostering or adopting unwanted children in your own home, because you care so very much about ‘choosing life’.
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By: Vinaigrette Girl on January 26, 2011
at 6:13 AM
Helen, thank you so much for this post. It’s clear that even decades won’t be enough to stop this argument. I’ve often thought that we hear statistics about how many abortions there have been since 1973. But we don’t really have real numbers to make a comparison to all those that were done before, illegally. And we don’t know how many women died or were left sterile. It wasn’t something that women could discuss if they did manage to survive.
For those who have decided that whatever they believe is what the rest of us should believe, I have chosen to ignore them and not name them. They have no importance to me. I do not value or respect their opinion. They are not God and have no right or authority to speak for him.
The decision that a woman makes about whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term is her business with the advice of her doctor. And no one else’s. There are all sorts of reasons a woman might choose to terminate a pregnancy and they are all very personal and should remain so.
And the government and religous zealots need to stay out of it. And I DO really mean it.
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By: Pat on January 26, 2011
at 6:05 AM
How primitive you are. “
As primitive as scalding babies in the womb sport? You want to talk about primitive? Everyone of my comments is completely accurate, and clowns like you and your friend Alive and Well (what a misnomer) are clueless dolts who propagate lies – like the euphemism “reproductive rights”. What a crock of shit – why don’t you just call butchering and spare the cliche?
You can sit here in your immoral echo chamber all you want and have your lovefest with infanticide, but it doesn’t change the fact you too are accessory to murder.
I wouldn’t doubt you’ve got your bloody feet walking into the mill right now, probably your livelihood is you parrot the NARAL message of “it’s only a product of conception.”
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By: Jackson on January 26, 2011
at 1:24 AM
Jackson as long as eternity is without people like you , it’ll be fine by me. How primitive you are. “do what I say or burn in hell”. What a sad little creature you are. Your comments are without merit. You really need to get laid and chill out. Be sure to use protection.
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By: TravEl on January 26, 2011
at 1:04 AM
@Jackson
You are completely out of line and totally wrong in everything you believe and write. You are a clueless twit. Go to sleep. Shut up. Go away. Come back when you actually know something. Right now your facts are all wrong. You know nothing. You spout foolishness. Get lost. Get your facts straight before you come back around again. You are 100% wrong.
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By: Alive and Well on January 26, 2011
at 12:53 AM
Why don’t you tell us when life begins then? And when you’re done, explain to all of us what uniquely qualifies you to determine when life does start. Because I work with doctors every day, and I’ve never met a one yet that didn’t call a zygote alive.
On top of that, if it’s not living, why the need to abort it then? Why don’t you just wish it away?
Man, you people as wicked as anything I’ve read. Pfesser, you appear to be straight out of the bowels of hell.
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By: Jackson on January 26, 2011
at 12:51 AM
Noah, you never write anything intelligent, so how do you expect to detect intelligent comments from someone else? I do indeed hope your coming child will be smarter than you. My best advice to you would be to give your child as much love as you possibly can. Make him or her feel like a worthwhile individual. Encourage free thinking and creativity. Avoid filling your child’s brain with your own current sour brand of dogma and truncated style of thinking. Don’t fill his or her head with religion or other fantasies. Don’t attempt to mold your child in your own image. Allow your child to see the world with his or her own eyes. Don’t restrict your child’s learning process. Keep an open mind and an open heart. Remember to love unconditionally. Parenting is a process of guidance and nurturing. Home dictatorships inevitably fail. Question yourself daily. Seek advice as needed from a variety of qualified professionals. Do these things and your child will likely turn out to be an outstanding person who goes very far in his or her life. Remember that preconceived notions should always be questioned and absolutes always avoided. I really don’t expect you to heed my advice, but on the off chance that you do, your child will thank you for it.
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By: Alive and Well on January 26, 2011
at 12:49 AM
Let’s get something straight ladies. Two points.
First, it appears most of you too stupid to get the most basic fact straight. What is being aborted is not YOUR BODY. Don’t tell me it is.
It’s a unique DNA which isn’t even your sex half the time. You can hide behind your lies all you want, but those of you proponents of abortion on demand are accessories to murder. Period.
Second, 95% of abortions are simply done for convenience. So this red herring you play about rape, incest, mother’s life in danger is mostly bunk.
And virtually all of you are liars, you most all Helen. If that’s you in the picture, I figure you’re about one step from meeting your maker. And I don’t think you’re going to like to hear the verdict. And eternity is very long time…
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By: Jackson on January 26, 2011
at 12:46 AM
Bravo, Helen!
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By: nilky666 on January 26, 2011
at 12:41 AM
How about this Noah. When you are carrying a fetus in your womb, then you can come back and talk about being pregnant. It is a good thing you are indeed responsible for your offspring- so many men are not and they should be. However, you will never ever be in the position many women have found themselves in and there is no way anyone who has not walked in those shoes can understand. No matter what people say, unless they are in those shoes they cannot understand why a woman might make a decision to obtain an abortion. I have never had an abortion, by choice. I have known those who have and would not think of condemning anyone for the choices they make. Others need to stay out of women’s private medical decisions, especially the government. No one is ever forced to have an abortion in this country and no one should ever be forced to carry a pregnancy to term if that is not their choice. It is no one elses business.
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By: MTinMO on January 26, 2011
at 12:13 AM
I love you.
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By: Sarah on January 25, 2011
at 11:25 PM
Fiona –
I think you set the tone perfectly. For many, abortion is a heart-wrenching decision, but I believe it should be *their* decision. When we were in medical school we participated in abortions, and I was surprised by the wide gamut of emotion experienced by the women. It certainly made me far more empathetic toward them and far more intolerant of those who want to stand on the sidelines and spout sanctimony.
As for Noah, he is entitled to his opinion and to express it – without being piled on – as are we all. I personally don’t agree with his position, but that does not lessen my respect for him, or give me – or anyone else – the right to attack him personally. He has walked the walk – not just talked about it on some blog. There are those who claim to doubt that he has actually done humanitarian work in Darfur and to them I would say that we don’t really know anything about anybody here – anybody – including you – and if you want folks to accept that you are who you say you are, then you need to extend the same courtesy to everyone else. I have corresponded with Noah privately and feel pretty comfortable taking him at face value.
To those who want to spout “life begins at conception,” I would suggest taking a little time to study some basic embryology. It ain’t as simple as you think, and you might gain a whole new respect for those who disagree with you. There *are* two sides to this argument, and all shouting does is harden your opponent’s resolve.
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By: PFesser on January 25, 2011
at 10:38 PM
Ha Ha. Very funny. All of you think you are so clever. Well you should know something. The baby is mine. If not I would know.
When my wife gets pregnant she stays pregnant. I take care of my children.
You are all just so clever. I will just sit here and read your comments and wait for someone to actually post something clever. What I think is what I think. You don’t have to agree. If I think abortion is not for me then that is fine. You must do what you must do. Too bad it involves ending the life of a living being.
Heddey. How is that for staying low and being quiet. Ha. I will wait for someone to actually write something intelligent.
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By: Noah on January 25, 2011
at 10:35 PM
Hey, Helen,
I don’t know what kinds of forms those seeking abortion have to fill in, but I’m confidant there are many. How about where they need to fill in the name of the responsible party, should the pregnant woman choose not to abort, write in RICK PERRY? After all, it was his choice; just saying . . . .
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By: Ruth Zepeda on January 25, 2011
at 10:30 PM
Helen and Margaret –
I appreciate your no-nonsense ways of doing business – especially you, Helen – and I wanted to share something that happened to me today.
In real life I work at a small community hospital, but I am currently about half-way through a 2-month fellowship at a major southern university hospital, studying musculoskeletal MRI. During this period I am living at a hotel, with shuttle service to the hospital each morning, and every day I converse with the driver. This morning I had a most interesting conversation.
Her name is S.H., and she wears many hats: shuttle driver, desk clerk, general go-fer, etc. One of those duties is also as an assistant to housekeeping when needed. While most of the residents here are long-term followup outpatients at the University, this week most of the hotel was booked by a teachers’ conference.
In the last month I have gotten to know S.H. pretty well. This morning she told me: “The teachers’ lectures must be pretty boring. When we were cleaning up after 5 o’clock, there were folded notes everywhere – they had been passing notes back and forth like second graders. Some were pretty racy, I tell you, but one just floored me. One of the ladies had passed around a note with her cell phone number on it and said she was switching her phone to vibrate and putting it between her legs – and she wanted as many people as possible to call her.”
Jesus H. Christ. So that’s how they spend public money on “teacher’s development conferences.” Now tell me again why we are thirtieth in math…????
Helen, if you do occasionally read the comments, I would like to see you weigh in sometime on the U.S. education system. I was on a local school board for two years and it was the most disheartening experience of my life. I am going to talk to S.H. tomorrow; my wife suggested that if we could get that note to CNN or Fox it would be like a bomb.
Thoughts?
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By: PFesser on January 25, 2011
at 10:13 PM
Helen, you RULE !
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By: SarahT on January 25, 2011
at 10:10 PM
Yay Helen. You tell it.
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By: Shash on January 25, 2011
at 9:32 PM
“Noah,” God Bless you and have some pie.
“Heddey,” God Bless you and have some pie.
Our Constitution requires the separation of church and state. Politicians and Lawyers have worked very hard to keep the two separate. They have gone so far as to try to stop children from saying the Pledge of Allegiance because it has two words, “Under God,” in it. They have even tried to take “In God We Trust” of off our money.
If politicians can not do this or if politicians feel the need to their faith into this argument, then they needs to get out of politics and go back to the religious institution of their choice.
We need to agree to the idea that we can disagree and still be civil to each other.
Please, have some pie.
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By: Ray on January 25, 2011
at 9:28 PM
Dear Helen,
I love you! Spot on, point for point. The day the government can legislate a penis is the day I will consider what they have to say about my uterus.
-QQ
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By: QandleQueen on January 25, 2011
at 9:22 PM
Crap. He’s back but stupidly commentng on the previous post.
Save yourself Noah. Just stay low and keep quiet.
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By: heddey on January 25, 2011
at 9:14 PM
Lelsie. No games. Take your toys and play by yourself if you must. Let me live my life by my morals not yours. That is fundamental to this argument. If Rick Perry and his followers were Catholic and did not believe in birth control… what then? Would you still argue that he has the right to legislate his moral beliefs? I bet not but I would be curious to get a straight answer out of you rather than RTL rhetoric.
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By: heddey on January 25, 2011
at 9:01 PM
well, let us bear something else in mind. This is the Noah who supposedly was just in Darfur, in the worst possible conditions. Either he went without his pregnant wife, he is so irresponsible that he exposes his pregnant wife to some of the most unsanitary conditions on earth, or the whole thing was a lie. I personally vote for Door Number 3.
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By: Donna on January 25, 2011
at 8:31 PM
Well, Noah usually shows up around this time. I hope he reads this before posting:
Noah dear, I beg you. Don’t make a fool of yourself. Tell Miss Helen thank you for the feedback and just move on. You have no idea how silly you look trying unsuccessfully to outsmart everyone here.
Just take your medicine and say goodnight. Tomorrow is a new day (and maybe a new post …pleeeeze).
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By: violet on January 25, 2011
at 8:15 PM
Leslie, what are your thoughts about universal healthcare, and welfare, and free education for all (college included if you so choose) and after school care, and jobs that pay enough for everybody’s needs to be taken care of, any other social programs to take care of every baby born in this country? I would certainly love it. Even then, all the people carrying babies out there come under many different circumstances. Even if all the aforementioned needs are covered, sometimes, abortion is a necessity. What would you choose for these people?
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By: Easier on January 25, 2011
at 8:12 PM
Thanks. I had the agony of waiting for the results of an amniocentesis almost 20 years ago. The powers that be thought I would likely have a Down Syndrome baby. I wrestled with the thought of abortion after witnessing what a needy child can do to tear existing families apart. When do the needs of one outweigh the members (including a small child) of an existing family???
Fortunately, everything was fine and I never had to make that final decision. Our daughter is a strong, smart woman who is making her own choices.
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By: Mary on January 25, 2011
at 7:56 PM
Ohhhh good call Lisa M!
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By: lori on January 25, 2011
at 7:34 PM
edit above: * “in honor of”
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By: Lisa M. on January 25, 2011
at 7:23 PM
Excellent stuff. Put my husband and I down for another donation to planned parenthood. I wonder if you can post donations “in honor if” there? If so, mine will be in honor of good ol’ Noah. Nice. 😉
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By: Lisa M. on January 25, 2011
at 7:22 PM
Nailed it … Nailed him!!!!
Best post yet.
Thank you girls!
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By: lori on January 25, 2011
at 7:16 PM
Bravo, Helen.
All you lame commenters who believe life starts with conception, do you cry every time a zygote doesn’t implant? NO, because you wouldn’t even notice. And is it death when a miscarriage happens? Is the mother now guilty of some unintentional manslaughter? Like what almost happened here in Utah.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/utah-women-may-face-murder-charges-after-miscarriages-1913019.html
And to all you who think that Helen didn’t think about the abortions of convenience. What is that anyway? Like who are you to judge what is “convenient” and to think you knew what went on in that persons decision making process. Even if it was it’s none of your business.
And to act like you’re worried about society? How about we fix societies view about women, and THEIR bodies, not too worried about that are you?
Keep it legal keep it safe. And how about sex education and availability to contraception and plan b to teens! I’m not sure on birth control, but if you are under 17 you can’t get Plan B without a prescription.
Stupid conservatives need to learn they can’t have their cake (no abortions, no teenage pregnancies) and eat it too (abstinence only education, less availability to birth control) like WTF? how does any logical person think that those two things go together anyway?
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By: Natasha on January 25, 2011
at 7:16 PM
Oh and Pete. That’s just so Christian of you. I’m sure your messiah is proud of you. Jesus Christ – not so much.
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By: Greytdog on January 25, 2011
at 7:14 PM
Damn! I love these ladies! Miss Margaret & Miss Helen, you are the best – Helen for kicking our butts and Margaret for reminding us that we can disagree while remaining civil.
THank you both for brightening up our world.
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By: Greytdog on January 25, 2011
at 7:13 PM
>>a woman’s right to make private medical decisions. <>Until men can and will carry that fetus for the best part of a year then look after it and support it for 20 years, they should stick their opinions where the sun don’t shine.<<
or stick something else there. Then they will never create a pregnancy and try to control the "host".
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By: cryptoclearance on January 25, 2011
at 6:50 PM
Bottom line, we trust women with the most important job in the world, raising a child. If we trust her with that responsibility, where does anyone get off thinking, she can’t be trusted to make other decisions concerning her body and her life. It’s her choice and no one else’s business.
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By: No one's puppet on January 25, 2011
at 6:38 PM
Helen, I love you! Keep writing to Margaret, and keep letting us listen, please. We need all the sanity we can get.
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By: Bluefrog on January 25, 2011
at 6:09 PM
(would say Kitty that some NEED those mad made divisions to make their days SEEM as if worthwhile…) As to what you posted at 4:24, well stated and well articulated and THANKS.
Pete…perhaps suffering the notion that perhaps YOU could have been aborted and hence hold resentment/fear or some such ..think a good many “men” in particular perhaps have that thought ,perhaps it has been so expressed to them by the very ones that indeed bear them…not sure, but a possibility that indeed seems possible. Find that am with others who figure that UNTIL (if ever and is rather a NOT for the human species) a MALE does THE full birthing thingy’s, as well UNTIL MEN/males at large actually accept and take THEIR portion of responsibilities for BIRTHINGS as well as once birth occurs they DO hold up and fulfill their proper portions of responsibility unequivocally…they have NO right to determine a females CHOICE in the matter.
How strange is it that such as VIAGRA is “covered” and but a co-pay but birth CONTROL medicinals NOT and even more bizarre, TEACHING of BIRTH and consequentials that come from such , well the one sized “answer’ of JUST abstinance does NOT fit MOST ALL that find themselves in the birthing situations.
Strange too, the loudest voices come from those who care so little in afterbirth care needs and neccessities and , well, etc,etc,etc and BLeeeeechk !!
ALL ENTITLED TO THEIR CHOICES regarding this issue but have NO right to impose their choice on another…by ANY means or ways. Make YOUR decision but do NOT decide what anothers SHOULD be..you do NOT have that right.
And Pete, might want to reconsider your judgement that has you hoping that OTHERS burn in hell cuz thinking heard somewhere, that one such as perhaps YOUR GOD figures HE has the authority to make JUDGEMENTS and threw out a cautionary “Judge lest Ye BE (so) JUDGED…just might want to consider that, but remains YOUR CHOICE.
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By: Bozly84 on January 25, 2011
at 5:29 PM
My termination was the worst day of my life – without exception. It took me months to get past the grief, and it was 6 months before I could bear to go and get the ultrasound pictures they’d taken for my medical file (necessary to determine procedure). I live in Scotland, and on the day I walked into the hospital I have never been so glad I didn’t live in the US. I’m generally glad of that anyway, but that day, if anyone had tried to tell me I didn’t know what I was losing, didn’t know what I was giving up, it would have killed me. Literally killed me – I suffer from a major mental health disorder – the drugs I take for it were what damaged the fetus before I knew I was pregnant. I was 17 weeks along that day. I nearly died anyway, from the guilt and the grief and the loss.
Abortion is very rarely the easy choice that people seem to think we make – it’s usually a decision made out of grim necessity and we are well aware of what’s at stake. We don’t skip into the clinic and then go for coffee with our friends. A very tiny minority may not find it traumatic, but for most people it at least is a difficult decision to make, and for many it takes some time to get over. And still, I (now) understand that I did the right thing. You can grieve for your loss and feel guilt while not regretting the decision.
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By: Fiona on January 25, 2011
at 5:16 PM
Thank you Margaret and Helen for being the wise women that you are. Your maturity and experience help you see through all the smoke and mirrors our government use to hide their true intentions.
Once again our government is trying to legislate medical procedures for moral reasons without funding said legislation. We would be much better off if our leaders and legislators would address our country’s need for a Nation Health Care Program.
Rather than address the need for a National Health Care Program, our elected officials are busy arguing how best to get people to purchase Health Insurance. This purchase does not help people afford health care; what it does do is put more money into the pockets of Big Insurance Companies, their Share Holders, and their Executives.
The United States is the only country in the developed world, with the exception of South Africa, that does not provide health care for all of its citizens. Instead, we have a confusing hodgepodge of private insurance coverage based primarily on employment, along with public insurance coverage for the elderly (Medicare), the military, veterans, and for the poor and disabled (Medicaid, which varies greatly in its implementation across states).
Click to access U.S.%20HCweb.pdf
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By: Ray on January 25, 2011
at 5:14 PM
Hate the sin. Hate the sinner. I hope you all burn in hell.
Peace. ii!ii
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By: Pete on January 25, 2011
at 4:34 PM
Abort Noah.
Now watch how quickly Noah takes my one stupid post and applies it to all of you. He generalizes the same way Perry and his creepy followers generalize.
They will eventually bring this country to its knees with their special blend of religious intolerance even if they don’t attach it to a specific religion. Red flag words/phrases: Morals. Do the right thing. Values.
All are subjective and all are impossible to legislate perfectly which is why our government was designed intentionally to make it hard to write new laws. To bad we blew that concept.
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By: Pat on January 25, 2011
at 4:33 PM
It appears this blog started sometime in July of 2007. Long before anyone outside of Alaska knew about Sarah Palin. Helen has taken on a commentor three times now. In addition to the one in October of 2008 I remember she took on someone who questione dthe war record of a congressman from Georgia. Would have to go back and read to get more specifics. I do remember very early Helen would actually leave comments as well but I got the impression that her family discouraged it. I might be remembering some of this wrong.
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By: Kitty on January 25, 2011
at 4:28 PM
Life is never black and white. You are so right my dear Helen.
America has so many issues to deal with. Just think how much we could get done if we would remove church from state and stop wasting time on abortion and gay marriage. Honestly, these two issues more so than any other divide us and keep us from moving forward. Red State vs. Blue State. Take these two issues out of the political arena and suddenly we are a Purple United States. No one wants a poor education system. No one wants to be held hostage by terrorists. No one wants prisons to be over populated. No one wants our elderly and our poor to be left in the cold. No one wants higher taxes. No one wants high unemployment. Honest debate can be had aroudn these issues. But abortion and gay rights are too personal. They cannot be solved by government. They can only be excaserbated.
Let’s all work to remove the divisive issues from politics. A church shouldn’t ahve to marry you but a state shouldn’t be allowed to deny you. A woman shouldn’t have to explain why she want to keep her baby or terminate her pregnancy. Leave it to her and her doctor. Don’t believe in abortion. Don’t have one. Don’t believe in gay marriage. Don’t marry a gay person.
United we stand. Divided we fall.
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By: Kitty on January 25, 2011
at 4:24 PM
Baaah, or is that BAAAH for leadersheep?
Until men can and will carry that fetus for the best part of a year then look after it and support it for 20 years, they should stick their opinions where the sun don’t shine.
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By: dlm on January 25, 2011
at 4:22 PM
Mikat, you disturbed me when you wrote you wish you had been aborted when you were a child. All I know about you is what you write here, and you sound like a nice person. I’m glad you are alive. You are probably using what you went through for good.
I like what I know about Noah, even if I disagree with him sometimes.
Rhonda, October, 2008 was before my time. When did this blog start?
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By: James on January 25, 2011
at 4:20 PM
I just have to say that this particular post is brilliant. You beautifully and artfully painted the picture on so many issues. The separation of church and state. The hypocrisy that currently exists within the Republican Tea Party. The generaliztion of a woman’s right to make private medical decisions. Bravo. This piece is deserving of a Pulitzer Prize. My hat is off to you. I only wish Noah, Leslie, and Chelsea would also let it go and offer their Asshats off to you as well.
Peace.
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By: Tabitah on January 25, 2011
at 4:15 PM
Chelsea did you know that the Right To Life Leaders consider Plan B to be an over the counter abortion? That’s right honey. They believe life begins as the sex is occuring so birth control and Plan B are all sins against nature. Open the door a crack and the wackos come right on in. Be careful…
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By: Hil on January 25, 2011
at 4:11 PM
Outstanding, Helen!
You are amazing!
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By: RLD on January 25, 2011
at 3:44 PM
Noah is a Ass Wipe.
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By: Tiger on January 25, 2011
at 3:43 PM
Well, Noah, I guess you won’t be sitting down for a week. Enjoy your new a-hole compliments of Helen the great! 🙂
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By: Connie R. on January 25, 2011
at 3:42 PM
I think Noah should get back on an arc, take his simplistic & one dimensional understanding of biology & fatherhood to on uninhabited island
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By: Lisa on January 25, 2011
at 3:40 PM
Actually, this is the second time Helen has address a particular comment….back on Oct. 30, 2008 post….she addressed Cecilia who was “undecided” about the election. Brilliant post then…even better now. I pride myself in the fact that I have been a Margaret & Helen fan from day one!
Long may they rein!!!!
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By: Rhonda on January 25, 2011
at 3:40 PM
BAM! Go Helen Go. Sadly, we’ll have to hear from Noah later today. He doesn’t get it. He never will. He will simply think you found him important… which is all he really wants.
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By: Gene on January 25, 2011
at 3:21 PM
If you think you are changing any minds, Leslie, you dellude yourself… which is apparent in your posts as something you do well and often. You have an opinion. It differs from mine. Who made you God? Rick Perry has that title already.
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By: CC on January 25, 2011
at 3:20 PM
Leslie, it’s like you didn’t even read the post.
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By: Gabriel on January 25, 2011
at 3:17 PM
Don’t forget, that with a budget hole of $25 BILLION dollars, Ricky and his Republican Texas Legislature will see to it that, once that child is born it will face a loss of children’s health insurance, a loss of public school educational opportunities, a loss of job training programs, and a loss of public services currently available at our low tax rate. When (and if) it reaches adulthood it will face a loss of higher educational opportunities and a loss of transportation options. Most likely, though, it will still have the same high level of prison opportunities available should it smoke some weed or marry within its gender. Because Ricky and the Lege know what best for Texas. Don’t mess with them.
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By: Bob on January 25, 2011
at 3:15 PM
Pro-choice isn’t pro-abortion.
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By: delurkergurl on January 25, 2011
at 3:14 PM
Thank you, Helen. You always tell it like it is.
Conservatives must think the jobs we so badly need are hidden inside a woman’s uterus.
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By: QueenEllery on January 25, 2011
at 3:06 PM
catnmus, you are missing the one and only societal question: who has the right to end whose life, under what conditions and when? Playing it’s a fetus/not a baby games with semantics may protect pro-abortionists from confronting realities but the fact of the matter is: “fetuses” are live, unborn humans in various states of development. Human life is a continuity from the moment of conception to the moment of death. For the NOW or anybody else to draw an imaginary line somewhere on that continuity and say, before this imaginary line I can kill my unborn offspring, after this line I can’t is a game. Pure and simple. Apparently the majority of people who read this blog are willing to play it. Some of us aren’t. Sorry if that offends your sensibilities.
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By: Leslie on January 25, 2011
at 3:02 PM
As the old saying goes, the anti-abortion crowd “Love the fetus, hate the child.”
By the way, the new anti-abortion bill the Republican house is pushing doesn’t just outlaw governmental money being used for abortions as that is already covered by law. The real propose of the bill is to provide that insurance costs, even those completely paid with private funds (such as those paid by a company and/or its employees, or by individuals), will not be tax deductible. This is their way to make sure employers do not include abortion as a covered medical expense under their insurance plans.
Great post, Laingirl !!
(and YES, this is a repetitive repeat, but needs to get dfuly noted for it IS making it thru the GOPPED UP House presently and needs to be thwarted posthaste for a goodly MAJORITY DO NOT AGREE with this latest attempt !!)
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By: Bozly84 on January 25, 2011
at 3:00 PM
Heh. I just had a thought regarding forcing women to see the sonogram and hear the heartbeat . . . what if I woman is deaf and/or blind, and thus unable to comply with the requirements of an unnecessarily intrusive law? Does that automatically negate her right to an abortion?
I’m very much pro-choice and have borne two children, one of whom we were told (in the second trimester) might well have a neural tube defect (spina bifida). We chose not to abort, but it was reassuring to have the option available.
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By: anon on January 25, 2011
at 2:59 PM
I’m proud to say I have two; beautiful, healthy, wanted boys. I can’t imagine my life without them. However, I have worked with children who were unwanted, abused and abandoned. Through no fault of their own, these children were born to parents who were uable (due to illness, mental health problems, poverty, immaturity etc.) or un-willing to look after them. Every life is valuable. Every life is beautiful. But…when the pain far overshadows the beauty; when the fear, abuse and misery overpower the joy and love…what then, Noah? Would you force a woman to bear a child, who is both her daughter and her sister, to her own father who raped her? Would you really place that baby into the arms of her father/grandfather when you know he will only do the same to her? I have met real children who have been born into this. This is not a life any of us would wish to live. It is not one any of us would wish for any other humanbeing. Anyone who says otherwise is a monster.
So please, Noah, cherish the child that your wife is about to bring into the world, but don’t pretend that you understand the reasons why women choose abortion over childbirth. It is not a decision that most take lightly. It is a very painful and very personal one that is none of your business. It is certainly not the Governor’s. The pair if you need to learn to mind your own bloody business.
I mean it. Really!
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By: Heidilouwho on January 25, 2011
at 2:51 PM
Leslie, you had your tubes tied? How nice for you. How did you pay for that, hmm? Maybe by using insurance? And I assume it also means that you had, nearby, a hospital that was not run by Catholics, so that the procedure was even available to you? Oh, and you had this done after you were done having the children that you wanted. Again, how nice for you. I’m sure if you would have gotten pregnant at 12 as the result of rape, that baby would be part of your family right now. PS, who do you think will have to pay for that sonogram?
Did you use birth control to prevent pregnancy? How nice for you that 29 years ago, they were still teaching comprehensive sex education in schools, so that you were aware of the options for protecting yourself. Too bad that teenagers today are being taught to just cross their legs firmly until they are prised open with a wedding ring.
I do understand what you’re saying, about responsibility and the future looking back on this time and being sad at the loss. But the reality is, not every pregnant woman has the resources that you do. Not everyone has control over whether they get impregnated. You need to learn a little compassion before you can truly call yourself an “ultra-liberal”.
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By: catnmus on January 25, 2011
at 2:50 PM
@Kimbery Ah, back to the “When exactly does life begin? argument.” Oh, the endless rounds I have argued this one with my biologist boyfriend… I do have to admit, on that one I disagree with the argument that it doesn’t begin till the third trimester (28 weeks is the information I have), when the baby can survive outside the womb on it’s own, if the lungs are developed enough. I do admit, I believe it when it’s conceived. When the first little cell gets made! Something about a zygote? Man its been awhile since I took reproductive biology, maybe I need to freshen up for this feed. But, I’m not ok with saline abortions, at the 2nd trimester. Fetus or not, if people can survive from those (which they can), I’m just not for it. But tthis subject is another argument really, and not the subject of this feed. So I digress. It doesn’t really apply.
And I guess I need to clarify, I in no manner believe that it should become law to make every woman get a sonagram to “hear the baby’s hearbeat.” Infact, Shawn, I completely agree with you. There are just too many specific cases. You can’t generalize to everyone. I understand that. But I have to admit, I am on my righteous little soap box, and I believe that everyone should be held accountable for their actions, myself included.
Oh, and @Kimbery I’ve been on Birth Control for quite some time, and it’s never failed. There are also methods for accidents such as Plan B. And to the women who use every method necessary, I commend them.
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By: Chelsea on January 25, 2011
at 2:41 PM
To Governor Perry. Welcome to 1932 where abortions for the poor were illegal but D&C’s were available to women of means. Given your stand Governor Perry, I look forward to the return to the days when I was in the first grade and on the way to school had to walk past a large Victorian house that looked like something out of the movie Psycho which in reality was the local abortion mill. As six year olds we had no idea what an abortion was but all my first grade buddies and I knew the house was pure evil so we always walked by quickly on the opposite side of the street.
Meanwhile, thank you Helen for your response to Noah. Now he should know what the rats in the biology lab feel like after they’ve been dissected.
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By: jsri on January 25, 2011
at 2:41 PM
BRAVO, *clapping* helen, you are the best. Never stop.
I have said this before, but I will say it one more time for the Noah’s and Leslie’s out there.
I was an unwanted baby. I was an unwanted child. I was abused, mistreated and neglected in the worst way. I was also used as “free” labor during my entire childhood. If I had had a say in my birth, I would have most definately said “ABORT ME” No child should have to live like that. Would you miss me Noah? Would you have ever known of my existance? NO.
And by the way, Abortion has been around as long as women have been getting pregnant. The reason it was FINALLY made legal is because to many women were dying horrible, gruesome, painful deaths. Don’t want an abortion don’t have one, but keep it legal and keep it safe!!!!
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By: Mikat on January 25, 2011
at 2:16 PM
Having had an abortion, due to medical issues (had infection and fever of 106) and eventually lost any chance of having children, due to the same issue, I was glad I had my two young sons, but this was a personal and painful decision. I would not take the right of any woman’s to make the decision themselves, without the interference of state laws, away from them. Go for it Helen!
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By: Joyce Beaman on January 25, 2011
at 2:13 PM
Bravo! Go Helen!
God bless you and Margaret.
Good to see you so on fire and passionate.
I enjoyed this one much. Really. I mean it. 😀
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By: poolman on January 25, 2011
at 2:09 PM
Having once been in a situation where I considered abortion -although back then they were illegal and how I would have gotten one then, I really don’t know -but anyway, I didn’t. I had the child, kept her and she is a beautiful woman today. But the thinking about that alone -even though I didn’t or couldn’t follow through, along with some information my Mom passed on to me before she died that totally shocked me -I may not be in favor of abortion for myself, but I do firmly believe that I -nor anyone else, male or female -should be in charge of such a decision except for the mother herself. No other individual should have a decision in that process and certainly not the government!
Keep writing! Keep voicing your opinions! I have you on my Reader and definitely do look forward to your interpretations of so many things!
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By: Jeni Hill Ertmer on January 25, 2011
at 2:09 PM
Some of these folks who are “Pro-life” should do a little historical research into exactly why abortions became illegal in the US. It was not due to any regard for human life beginning at conception. Most pregnancies back in the day were allowed to be terminated before “quickening”. Some religions had a cut off date; 90 days for males and 120 days for females (how they’d know which was which is beyond me). Making abortion illegal had more to do with religions wanting to one up each other on members and their donations (protestants vs. catholics) and the AMA wanting to get rid of midwives who were slurping up their cash. It all boiled down to MONEY, just like it always does.
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By: Gindy52 on January 25, 2011
at 2:01 PM
A quick ps for Chelsea: One thing I noticed in your post is that you have capitalized a lot of your comments. This signifies yelling. Clearly you have never had a child or you would know that the more you yell, the less likely you are to be heard. Kids will just tune you out. Have a couple of them. Teach them to swear as much as you do and to be as angry as you clearly are. Then remember who is responsible for the way they turned out. And thank your lucky stars that you were able to not only bring them healthy and whole into the world, but also that you had the means to clothe, shelter, feed and educate them. If you ARE able to do all of those things, then you really are among the fortunate. Think for a moment about all those who are not.
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By: Shawn on January 25, 2011
at 1:58 PM
It’s amazing how many of the most anti-abortion crusaders are men. How dare those uppity women not want to make babies, right? And some of the absolute worst are men who never fathered children of their own. Double whammy: Uppity women plus shooting blanks sends some guys round the bend.
If these people really respected life they wouldn’t wash their hands of those lives once they cleared the birth canal. Ever see an anti-abortionist fighting tooth and nail for universal health care? Ever see them waving signs with graphic pictures of dead soldiers outside military recruitment offices? That’ll be the day.
I”m long past childbearing age myself and would not have had an abortion when I was younger unless there was absolutely, positively, no other choice. But it is none of my freakin’ business what other women choose to do, and it’s even more so none of any politician’s freakin’ business unless he (and it’s mostly men) can guarantee to adopt the baby himself and provide for it all the way through college, no questions asked. Just think what a huge and happy multicolored family old Ricky and Agent Orange Boehner would have. Just think how happy their wives would be, taking care of hundreds of “saved” babies. Just think how often those guys would get a chance to get lucky after that.
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By: infmom on January 25, 2011
at 1:46 PM
I do hope Noah “who seems to totally understand pregnancy because his wife is 7 months pregnant” will be up all night (every night) for feedings, changing diapers, colic for the next 2 years or more. I hope Noah will be up all the nights past that for ear infections, croup and can’t breathe without steam and every school assignment. Sorry, Noah but no more football and hanging with your buds now. You have decided life is so precious that you have signed on to handling every detail of your child’s development now. I see that as only fair since you can’t really get pregnant but seem to think you understand women and what they go through.
I know your type Noah. They enjoy screwing around and don’t want to be tied down, but once it happens, they feel differently about abortion, somehow it isn’t right anymore.
Here is the clincher, the only thing you need to know or anyone else. That viewpoint is yours and yours alone and not to be thrust upon anyone else other than you and the “sheeple” women that are willing to make little copies of you.
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By: Jill on January 25, 2011
at 1:45 PM
I think we’ve found our replacement for Keith Olbermann. I vote for Helen!
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By: Gail on January 25, 2011
at 1:38 PM
Chelsea and Leslie, you make the assumption that the vast majority of abortions are because of a couple’s irresponsibility. Maybe you’re right. You say they majority of these are probably not the result of rape and incest. I hope you’re right on that, too.
But, every woman’s story is different and it’s not your place to sit in judgment of any of us. My abortion came about NOT because of an unwanted pregnancy, but because of an unwanted medical condition that killed that fetus’ chances of growing to term and endangered my life. Should I have had to listen to this doomed being’s heartbeat, knowing that s/he had zero chance of continuing on to birth?
You are choosing life – well, good for you. But you are not wanting others to have any other choice than the one you made, which – whether you like this or not – means you see your choice is superior to any one else’s. You are making assumptions and standing in judgment of them without knowing anything about them. You are imposing your standards on everyone else – which is exactly what Rick Perry and every other officious, arrogant conservative lawmaker who wants to take a woman’s choice away is doing, too. You think one size fits all, which is so far from the truth as to be laughable. Just as you shouldn’t be in anyone sles’s bedroom judging who they’re sleeping with, you also shouldn’t be in anyone else’s body telling them what they get to do with it. You made your choices on your own; now let others do the same.
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By: Kate in Michigan on January 25, 2011
at 1:35 PM
Yet another fantastic post! Many readers will never agree with you, Helen, as is evidenced in some of the comments already posted before mine. I say let them disagree. Hell, let them eat cake, too, if they want to eat it! My point is that there will always be naysayers like Noah and his cakey friends. That won’t stop the freight train of truth and freedom from moving forward at full speed, and it won’t stop Noah’s wife from pushing when her big day comes rolling around. We never know what the future may hold. Noah doesn’t know either. His child might turn out to be a drag queen someday! Wouldn’t that be a hoot and a holler?! One thing is for certain: the truth will be the same in the future as it is today.
Great post, Helen! Please give Margaret my love and admiration, and don’t forget I love you too! Peace and love to all of you, but most of all to Noah’s wife (whom I suspect really needs it the most).
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By: Alive and Well on January 25, 2011
at 1:35 PM
Helen for president!
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By: haphazardmusings on January 25, 2011
at 1:32 PM
The question that I haven’t seen raised here is who is supposed to pay for the sonograms if there is no national health care?
Chelsea, I respect your opinion, but I think you’re dwelling on one aspect of the problem instead of looking at the bigger picture. If you put a bunch of rules and regulations in place to determine who has the right to terminate and who doesn’t, then you just muddy up the issue that much more. If a girl/woman is raped and can’t bear the thought of even trying to love a child created out of hatred and pain, does she have to go to court and have the asshole convicted of the rape before she can rightfully take charge of her own body and begin to heal? With the court system the way it is, the woman would have had to not only give birth to the child, but raise it to high school age by the time she got her day in court.
I agree that there needs to be some sense of accountability and responsibility. This is needed in ALL aspects of life and society today…and I’m not talking about accountability to any god. We are accountable to the next generation for the mess we leave in our wake. That includes overpopulating our planet beyond the availability of such basics as clean air and water. We are also accountable for the children that we are presently raising. If your children or grandchildren are superficial, self-absorbed, mass-consuming mallrats who would never even think of volunteering at a soup kitchen or donating a small percentage of their shoe allowance to charity – that’s YOUR fault. Take responsibility for your own.
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By: Shawn on January 25, 2011
at 1:26 PM
Also, I want to say that one of my grandfathers was infamous for a personality that was at best mixed. His sense of humor was sometimes vicious.
He was sometimes kind.
I know that he was with one of my relatives during part of her labor (early) and was simply and practically comforting to her, in a way that few people were, and she will not forget this.
I know that he helped a relative find a doctor who would not butcher her, and this relative will also not forget this.
My family is very big.
I was 10 when this grandfather died.
I live in a very Roman Catholic state, which used to have the highest rate of adolescent pregnancy in the country. We also had a very high rate of terminations by teenagers…
Many of the nuns and priests I know support women’s rights to make our own decisions and to receive healthcare. One of these sisters made a point to deliver coffee to people escorting patients into clinics.
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By: Nomi on January 25, 2011
at 1:02 PM
Right on as always, dear heart. And Leslie, yeah, we get it, you don’t like abortions. That’s YOUR choice. I will defend the right of other women to make their own choices as vigorously as I would defend you against a mandate of forced abortion. As for the Republicans, well, it’s still true that as far as they’re concerned, “The right to life ends at birth.” They’re not pro-life, they’re anti-female-independence. Screw ’em.
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By: Steve H on January 25, 2011
at 12:57 PM
You said it, Helen! That was FANTASTIC!
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By: Christopher on January 25, 2011
at 12:55 PM
Some good points Disparaged and Chelsea, though I don’t agree with all of them. The father has a voice too, just as women had a voice in our national affairs when only men were subject to the draft.
Once the baby is born, men can be as responsible as women in raising the children. I was primary care giver during the winter when our farm work was slow. I took them to doctors and to pre -school and cooked their meals. In spring, they rode in the tractor with me and wore their own little ear protectors.
My wife taught both when they were teenagers. She said I got the better deal.
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By: James on January 25, 2011
at 12:53 PM
Helen, to grace us with posts back to back! Thanks! I am with you all the way.
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By: Easier on January 25, 2011
at 12:52 PM
Having know women who have had abortions due to malformed/ incompatible with life diseases, it makes me angry what perry is trying to do.
I have sat in a hospital and watch my premature son dying, held him as he died.
I know the pain of a pregnancy gone bad. I lost a wanted child, yet I believe that a women should not be forced or coerced into maintaining a pregnancy because of somebody else religious beliefs.
I don’t like abortion, so I will not have one. What any other women does is up to her.
But noah lets say you lost your job, with health benefits and your unemployment ran out. Your wife got pregnant with a 5th child because she did not have the money for birth control or it was an accident. Your about to lose your house because you can’t pay the mortgage.
Then ask yourself what you and your wife would do. What makes it right for rick perry and the government to interfere in you and your wife’s choices? Is it religious persecution? Because really, your’s, mine and rick perry’s religious dictates may not be the same.
Why does he believe that abortion is wrong, but the death penalty is right?
And what does rick perry offer women who are coerced into keeping a pregnancy do to these tactics?
Nothing. He and his friends do not care about children. The schools are about to take a major hit. They don’t think that all children deserve health care.
They don’t think that the unemployed deserve unemployment insurance, even in this economy. Money for families that go to feed,clothe and take care of children in many many cases.
They don’t even want birth control covered by health insurances.
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By: mgardener on January 25, 2011
at 12:51 PM
Oh Chelsea, how kind of you to consider the emotional and medical implications in being a gestational carrier for a child to be put up for adoption.. will you be paying for it? The state? How about for the psychological issues it can cause?
Also, birth control fails. I’ll let you sit and consider that.
Children are not a punishment and shouldn’t be kept because someone was irresponsible. No unwanted child should be born, ever. Conveniently, we only terminate fetuses and embryos so no harm no foul!
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By: Kimberly on January 25, 2011
at 12:44 PM
Wow, impressive. You really “thrummed” my heart strings. Touching, really.
Just for a ‘grin an’ a giggle’, some background- that you didn’t ask for and I’m sure care less about. I read this blog as often as it’s posted and love it. Cheers me up on these dark days when I want to punch all Republicans smack in their noses.
Having said this, do you really think Americans are this stupid, Helen? Really? Do you REALLY think most terminated pregnancies stem from rape and dangerous abnormalities? Please, dear lord. Give me a break, if you will. I beg of you. I mean would this be an issue if they did? If all terminated pregnancies stemmed from those issues you listed above, no one would give a f*cking flying sh*t if they were terminated. No one’s going to judge someone for aborting a fetus that reminds them everyday of being raped. Who gives a sh*t? Now this is just my own little ol’ opinion, but maybe, the group of people this law is trying to send a message to is women (and men) who are IRRESPONSIBLE. And let me define irresponsible, Helen, because you seem to have not brought up that particular reason that babies are born. AND THOUSANDS are born for that VERY REASON everyday. Young (and older, for that matter) women are IRRESPONSIBLE and DO NOT TAKE METHODS TO PREVENT PREGNANCY. Then, THEY WANT TO TAKE IT OUT ON THE CHILD (because, in my opinion, it’s not the child’s fault it was born?) BECAUSE THEY DON’T WANT TO CARRY THE BABY FOR NINE MONTHS AND GIVE IT UP FOR ADOPTION TO THE THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN FAMILIES WHO MIGHT WANT TO ADOPT IT. Or, god forbid, care for it on their own. I think that’s the issue that’s probably trying to be addressed. I could be wrong though. I’m not positive, here. I don’t know, what do you think? And while, no, I do not agree that this law should be passed, I DO, actually DO understand the point that is trying to be portrayed across. And, I believe, that point is that HUMAN LIFE SHOULDN’T BE THROWN AWAY. TO MAYBE SHOW SOME COMMON COURTESY TO A POTENTIAL LIFE. I’m sure there are millions out there who are quite happy their parents didn’t decide to terminate them, and have them. You and I may even know some. :o) And I commend someone for standing up for that fact. No, of course, it’s ridiculous to make every woman take a sonogram, but you know, would it be such a crime to make someone who may be having a perfectly healthy baby who’s just scared sh*t-less to have it, would it be the end of the world to tell that woman, that she could be killing a wonderful baby? To make her truly understand that fact? And you know, just for the record, I haven’t made it to church for a while. So Jesus hasn’t been a whisperin’ in my ear. And I am a younger female, quite fertile, so I’m not one of those preachin’ the adoption sermon cause I can’t have one either.
Really, Helen, I’m disappointed in your opinion on this matter. Will definitely have to agree to disagree on this one.
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By: Chelsea on January 25, 2011
at 12:40 PM
OMG Helen, truer words were never spoken. To think that ‘men’ believe they know what is best for women, or even their wives, is just too much to contend with even in today’s world; or rather especially in today’s world where a woman is ‘expected’ to work since staying home to raise the kids and home-schooling so they can learn religion as well as the other subjects which public school does not offer, cooking meals, doing laundry, mowing lawn in spring and summer, shoveling snow in winter, running all the errands, and being fresh, spry and happy when hubby comes home so she can still perform her ‘wifely duties’ and act like they are the most fulfilling part of being his wife is simply not enough. No we are not smart enough to know what’s good for us and good ole Ricky as well as your husband is gonna tell us ‘exactly’ what that entails. They [or at least Ricky] must believe that we are not going to like what he tells us, so he has decided that he will FORCE us to listen by creating the law that makes it MANDATORY for us to listen – we will be FORCED to have the ultrasound and listen to the heartbeat and then we will be ALLOWED to make ‘our’ decision [regardless the circumstances of pregnancy] and pretty soon the ULTIMATE DECISION will be made for us by not only our husbands, but good ole Ricky himself. Now if that don’t beat all! I for one am ready to move to any other country because as long as we have men like Noah, ole Ricky and so many of today’s politicians, we may as well have a lobotomy since that’s how much these men believe in our ‘ability’ to make ‘our own decisions’ that involve our own bodies!
As soon as any man can get pregnant and carry a child, then I will allow him to make a decision regarding that issue for me. However, until then, I would appreciate it if he just kept his OPINIONS to himself because he has ‘NO CLUE’ what is entailed despite any information he thinks he has garnered from his wife, other women or for that matter, even if he’s spoken directly to his god.
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By: Disparaged on January 25, 2011
at 12:39 PM
Noah, you should feel honored. I think this is the first new post devoted to one of us visitors. It gives me hope a few of the rest of us may be noticed.
I respect pro- lifers and pro- choicers.
My wife and I are pro- choice. We once considered an abortion. We also lost a baby. My wife and our son nearly died of toxemia . Our daughter nearly strangled in a breach birth. I was in the delivery room and both times and held two miracles.
Congratulations Jennifer and the others who are expecting. I agree, the only thing that belongs in your uterus is the baby.
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By: James on January 25, 2011
at 12:37 PM
I’m 7 months pregnant. I’ve also had three abortions. You know what didn’t stop me from having them? Seeing a heartbeat. What it did is make me question why anyone felt it was necessary? “yes I see a reflexive twitching of cells that will eventually pump blood..your point?” was my response. I didn’t suddenly feel overwhelmed by maternal affection and guilt.
I will never understand why it is that men seem so invested in the concept of termination. It’s a woman’s body and even possibly a woman’s life on the line, who gives a good goddamn what a group of rich, middle aged guys think about it?
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By: Kimberly on January 25, 2011
at 12:33 PM
It’s a societal issue. Hundreds or thousands of years from now, when we are being studied as an ancient society, note will be taken that we chose as a society to deal with the problem of unwanted fetuses by ceremoniously (doc, operating room, bright lights, invoices..) killing them. If you folks don’t get it that that’s a huge issue with huge impact, I’m sorry for you. Young adults now have never lived in a time when it wasn’t easy to end a pregnancy. If you don’t think that affects them, again, I’m sorry for you. And notice the way in which it does NOT affect them. There are no fewer unwanted pregnancies.
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By: Leslie on January 25, 2011
at 12:33 PM
Larry Piltz –
Fanned!
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By: PFesser on January 25, 2011
at 12:31 PM
That’s why I love you Helen. Congratulations to you and your wife Noah, now paint the nursery and give your wife a back rub.
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By: No one's puppet on January 25, 2011
at 12:28 PM
Love it!
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By: Beth A. on January 25, 2011
at 12:24 PM
You are my new favorite person on the planet. I’ve been following your blog for several months now, and I am always excited to read it. Keep up the good work.
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By: Mike on January 25, 2011
at 12:24 PM
Don’t forget all the wanted babies that have no “Right To Life” because Republicans like profits for insurance companies more than they like health care for Women and Humans !!
Best Wishes to you wonderful Women !!
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By: David Briegel on January 25, 2011
at 12:23 PM
Oh Child…Take a break, Helen. You done did good, girlfriend! You need some pie and a BIG GULP full of tea. I hope sister Margaret is there to fan you down some.
You are a gifted voice, Sister Friend!
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By: Marlene on January 25, 2011
at 12:21 PM
Spot-on! And incidentally, I happen to be pregnant, and it’s only made me MORE adamant about the government getting out of my uterus.
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By: Jennifer on January 25, 2011
at 12:09 PM
I am going to try to translate this into Spanish or perhaps someone else has done that already. I once drove a woman with a hemorrhage to a hospital in Nicaragua. Months later, I began to understand what had been happening.
Thank you, Helen, for finding words for these matters.
You and Margaret are loved in Rhode Island, a state which is often considered as a fraction of yours, as in X number of RI’s would fit in Texas.
LOVE.
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By: Nomi on January 25, 2011
at 12:09 PM
This is the best post I’ve ever read on this blog — bravo Helen. Keep telling it like it is.
It always amazes me when we hear from someone who clearly thinks his magical sperm created a baby all on its own, and that the woman is just there to grow it — like planting a tulip bulb in a flower pot. It’s a personal decision for him. What the heck does he think it is for a pregnant woman?! Oh, right — it’s a state decision. A woman has no agency, no opinions, no feelings, no individual autonomy worth recognizing because she’s female.
I admire you for having the stomach to argue with self-righteous sexists like this guy because I think anti-choicers are too far gone to let even a tiny amount of common sense seep into their little brains.
To other commenters, please do not trot out the crap about how we’re all people of good will. People of good will talk openly about and promote greater access to birth control (including for poor people). People of good will think that sex education in schools should be comprehensive and include accurate information about birth control. People of good will don’t judge others because they know they haven’t walked a mile in their shoes. People of goodwill do not shoot doctors. People of goodwill do not lie to pregnant women and tell them that abortion causes cancer. People of goodwill do not torture human beings making a difficult decision by reading them a script peppered with lies to shame them for the “sin” of having unprotected sex.
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By: DC Fem on January 25, 2011
at 12:09 PM
Thought provoking. Really.
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By: reddog on January 25, 2011
at 12:08 PM
BRAVOMISSIMO and THENSOME !!
(and uh, Leslie, good for you to be walking YOUR walk but perhaps a tad more consideration for OTHERS who are walking theirs for a variety of reasonable reasonings that are NOT fluffed off as merely WANTING/DESIRING/ to END a fetus’ survival …You diatribe came off as rather condescending as an admonishment to another(Helen) that perhaps they did NOT fully comprehend all the ramificationaries and full score consequences that come when one makes/decides and presupposes they had NOT taken the various factors into THEIR factoring. It as well came off as endorsement of the infliction of the government mandate that so intrudes into their personal decision making….That is rightfully YOUR choice to make, OTHERS have their rights as well which deserve equal respect whether one agrees or not.
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By: Bozly84 on January 25, 2011
at 12:06 PM
Thanks for this thoughtful letter and posting. I’ll add one thing. If a woman is pregnant, she has no need whatsoever of a visual aid to understand what is going on, unlike some men who couldn’t fathom a pregnancy unless they were seeing it live on Sonogram TV. I’m glad for Noah’s new awareness, but, Noah, if you’re listening (and if your mind isn’t closed like a rock), women are born with much more awareness of such things than you could accumulate as endless lifetimes as a male.
And besides The Right Prurient Reverend Governor Perry and his ideologic bedfellows do not have the best interests of the woman in mind. The Right Prurient Perry and his prying cohort only want to control women, keep them barefoot and pregnant.
“Choose Life”?! Please. Don’t make me laugh. These hypocrites are warmongers who don’t mind the unnecessary slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent children, women, and men, including fetuses. They’ll simply think it’s the cost of doing America’s Business.
Let men, including myself, if we really want to help the world, clean up our own self-righteous ignorant acts, one of the worst of which is being so afraid of women’s independence that we irrationally (and impossibly) try to control them, especially their sex lives. If these self-appointed patriarchal demented deacons of “life” were sincere, they’d be busy the next several thousand years at least getting their own selves right with God.
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By: Larry Piltz on January 25, 2011
at 12:05 PM
Helen, I think I am going to be you when I grow up. I got to explain to somebody not too long ago why expecting somebody to try to keep an ectopic pregnancy was a truly stupid idea.
I am not a medical professional, but I have known five women who had ectopic pregnancies, and am quite clear about how possible they are to continue.
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By: Judy Schultheis on January 25, 2011
at 12:05 PM
Helen dear, you skated right over a really important implicit point: Good ole Ricky really, really cares about getting Noah’s baby here, but after that? Noah’s baby is on its own. Thoughtful Rick might well say don’t worry about where the money will come from to feed it, but what he really means is HE’s not going to worry about where the money will come from to feed it. Or to get it healthcare. Or to educate it. Not government’s proper role, don’t you know.
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By: Elaine on January 25, 2011
at 12:02 PM
Noah, I work with your wife. The kid’s not yours.
Happy Tuesday!
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By: Lisa on January 25, 2011
at 12:02 PM
What I don’t understand is why the pro-life folks can’t just let everyone make his/her own choice. You don’t want to abort? Fine, don’t then. You think it’s murder? Well don’t do it. Many others don’t feel that way. Let them make their own decisions.
As with Helen, I am not a spring chicken either, and while I don’t remember (very well, anyway) the time before television, I well remember how it was in the bad old days before abortion was legal and safe. Believe me, you don’t want to return there. Ever. But if you ladies don’t get off your complacent arses and stand up and be heard, that is exactly where we are heading. And I say ladies because it is you – and you alone – who have the power to decide if abortion becomes illegal once again.
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By: PFesser on January 25, 2011
at 12:01 PM
Of course Rick Perry wants to stop all abortions. But he can’t, so he and many other of his ilk try to make the process as financially and emotionally difficult as possible. A “de-facto” ban on abortion if you will, and a first step towards their untilmate goal – to see Roe vs Wade dead. Wake up Noah… try being a leadersheep – and see the blizzard danger that is Rick Perry’s agenda.
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By: Tom on January 25, 2011
at 12:00 PM
It has always dismayed me (dismayed, NOT surprised), how quick men are to make laws that govern women’s bodies. It doesn’t seem to matter how far we come, in the back of the masculine mind we are seemingly still just chattel.
I propose that we get female lawmakers to put forward Male Genital Control legislation every time a law is proposed against women.
Forced sonograms for woman seeking abortion = forced fidelity tests for men seeking viagra.
Restrictions on birth control = penalties for not using a condom.
Reduction of services for pregnant teens = reduction of sports activities for teen fathers.
See how long that lasts!
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By: Eddie Louise on January 25, 2011
at 11:59 AM
You are great woman. You have superior voice and should be heard. Do not stop this blog. You need to be heard.
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By: Guido Lepoldo on January 25, 2011
at 11:58 AM
Wow, a new post again today! Woohoo!
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By: delurkergurl on January 25, 2011
at 11:55 AM
Wow, again today! Woohoo!
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By: delurkergurl on January 25, 2011
at 11:55 AM
You don’t seem to allow that some of us ultra-liberal, non-Catholic, non-Fundamentalist, yellow-dog Democrat women have a problem with abortion as a solution to the problem of unwanted pregnancy. The way I see it, the only way we can stomach it as a society is to distance ourselve from it, no heartbeats, no ultrasound, no presentation of alternatives — . Back in the day, when I skipped some periods and knew I wasn’t pregnant, my ob-gyn said, “Well, you may need a D & C. And anyway, if you WERE pregnant, we could just do another kind of D & C.” And I said, “You mean I could have an abortion and we wouldn’t even have to say the word “abortion,” let alone, say, “kill.” And that decided me and at 29 I had a tubal ligation, because my family was complete. So I walk my talk, Helen, and I say that I could get around the idea of putting the burden on the doc: no abortions without the doc being able to show that all the relevant tests and data had been presented to the pregnant person. I’ll say it again, the only way our society can handle continuing of killing unwanted fetuses is to distance ourselves as far as possible from the reality. Noah, I know what you mean. Wait until you meet that baby, if you think you’re bonded now!
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By: Leslie on January 25, 2011
at 11:55 AM
You nailed it right on the head!
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By: Sue H on January 25, 2011
at 11:52 AM
Wow! Both barrels! 🙂
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By: TRL on January 25, 2011
at 11:52 AM
Sending to EVERYONE I know! Helen, you rock!
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By: Samantha Levine on January 25, 2011
at 11:50 AM
You go, girl. Really!
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By: Aeroentropy on January 25, 2011
at 11:50 AM
Get this lady on CNN!
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By: Harriet Bradshaw on January 25, 2011
at 11:49 AM
Awesome commentary, as always. And Noah – if you really believe that it isn’t Rick Perry’s intention to stop all abortions, perhaps you need to have that wool removed from over your eyes.
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By: Gale Wrigley on January 25, 2011
at 11:47 AM
Best post EVER, Helen!
I REALLY feel sorry for Noah’s child…not easy having such a shit head for a father.
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By: Jackson on January 25, 2011
at 11:47 AM
WE LOVE HELEN! 🙂
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By: Fracine R. on January 25, 2011
at 11:46 AM
BRAVA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOU ARE AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TAKE THAT NOAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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By: Don on January 25, 2011
at 11:44 AM