(Seven Posts in Seven Days – Day 6)
Now folks of all the things that have scared me this year in politics, one of the worst was learning that Sarah Palin declared the war in Iraq to be a task from God. Just do a little research on the history of religious wars and see how you feel about that. They tend to be long, bloody, and in every case, the biggest loser is God.
So I have spent more than a few hours writing about my less than warm feelings about Ms. Palin. But as of today the worst person in politcs is not Sarah Palin. It is Elizabeth Dole who ran an ad suggesting that her opponent is godless. Nevermind that her opponent, Kay Haggan, is a Sunday school teacher and an elder in her church. Nevermind that calling someone “Godless” leads to jets flying into skyscrapers. Nevermind any of that. Just follow this argument to its logical conclusion. Quick somebody, throw Haggan into a lake and see if she floats!
There is a reason that separation of church and state exists in the founding documents of our great nation. Our founding fathers were all too familiar with living in a world of religious persecution just as much as they understood the ramifications of a government without religion. The solution is a government that allows both freedom for religion and freedom from religion. Smart bunch of guys those founding fathers.
A bit of history (I wasn’t there despite how old I seem to you): On September 17, 1787 the Constitutional Convention came to a close in the Assembly Room of Independence Hall in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Although seventy individuals were chosen to attend the meetings, ultimately only thirty-nine actually signed the Constitution. George Mason of Virginia, Edmund Randolph of Virginia, and Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts refused to sign the final document primarily because they were fearful of an all-powerful government and wanted a bill of rights added to protect the rights of the people. We owe a great deal to these men.
But today, Elizabeth Dole has spit on all of their graves.
It’s not pretty, but it’s almost over. Go vote. Thanks for stopping by. I mean it. Really.
Margaret and Helen 
Thanks for putting an effort to publish this information and for sharing this with us.
Ceddy
http://www.gofastek.com
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By: gofastek.com on June 25, 2014
at 12:35 AM
шокер
электрошокер
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By: tariely on March 15, 2010
at 7:21 AM
That was the other good news of election 2008 – her lazy Southern Belle act is finally being retired.
Still smiling!
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By: TallulahBankhead on November 11, 2008
at 11:55 AM
Thank you for pointing this out about Elizabeth Dole. I hadn’t paid attention to this as I was so tuned in to Obama’s race.
Wow, can’t believe that she did that. That is really low.
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By: dlm on November 9, 2008
at 7:43 AM
Riverotter,
what’s with the hostility? I’m not against you.
Second of all, nice of you to assume I’m a Christian. I’m a Catholic as a matter of fact.
But let’s talk the ugly side of Christianity. What are you refering to, the Crusades? The Inquisition? Or how about the persecution of Catholics in England after King Henry VIII formed the Church of England? What about the Puritan witch hunts? The disenfranchisements of Catholics throughout the nation (which actually lead to the Catholic school system in America)? There are many many more, of course, but, I know a lot too. So what’s your point?
And again, this was a House resolution. It was not a bill to make a law. So, either way it’s not so bad. And besides, we already have Black History Month, Latino History Month, and a couple other “History Months”, so why not a “Religious History Week”?
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By: phoenixofdiscordia on November 5, 2008
at 10:43 PM
You are so right about religion. My parents always taught us to never, ever ask anyone about their religion. They said it was a personal matter and, how does anyone know which theory is the right one?
Freedom from religious whack jobs is just the thing that our founders had in mind.
Look at history, and you can see most of the people came here so they could honor their own religion, without interference from the goverment.
It is very sad that all these so-called “Christians”, the ones who give Christianity a bad name, (mostly Republicans) only care about punishing people who don’t agree with their believes.
Jesus preached about love, tolerance, and sacrifice. He did not try to tell anyone how to vote. He did not condemn homosexuality or abortion. He was for the disadvantaged, the poor, and tried to unite, not divide. (As the reichwing always try to do.)
These far right “Christians” need to study their Bible a whole lot harder. Then maybe, the healing will begin.
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By: mary on November 5, 2008
at 6:22 AM
It was Elizabeth Dole’s Godlessness that cost her the election. I’m so proud of my fellow Americans tonight. I pray for the safety of our President Obama.
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By: Heather on November 4, 2008
at 11:11 PM
I am a minister in NC, and Liddy Dole stepped way over the boundaries. It’s the worst ad I’ve seen since Jesse Helms was around.
And I am perfectly fine with someone being athiest (have some friends who are), but Dole knows that throughout much of our country, most voters believe differently.
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By: Rio on November 4, 2008
at 9:32 AM
I live in a suburb of Charlotte, NC.
Lizzy Dole has to go. And be careful voting in the state elections this year. Do we want all this corruption to continue? NC State politics is HORRIBLY corrupt. It’s ridiculous.
NC State has had enough!
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By: Girty on November 4, 2008
at 6:06 AM
We will find out how well she floats tomorrow.
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By: RiverOtter on November 3, 2008
at 10:43 PM
wait. We should be throwing Elizabeth in the water and see if SHE floats.
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By: Shelley on November 3, 2008
at 10:25 PM
What matters to me is the state of this country! Not someones religious beliefs that I may or maynot agree with. By the way I belive there is NO god. But that is me. You can worship any religion you like and I would FIGHT TO THE DEATH to defend that.
Well if you would like to reflect on the History of Christianity in America you had better be ready for the not so pretty side of Christianity. There are a lot of great examples I could bring up.
Horrific things have been done in American and around the world in the name of Christiananity that would make Muslim’s look like Saints!
Shall I go on? I can rattle off MANY examples of crimes your religion has commited. They are part of y’all’s History too.
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By: RiverOtter on November 3, 2008
at 10:05 PM
To RiverOtter,
So, while there is certainly nothing wrong with being an atheist, I would like to point out that to be an atheist you must disbelieve in any god whatsoever hence a- “not”, theist “one who believes in one or more deities”. Not to be confused with a person who doesn’t believe in the God of Abraham. Not saying you don’t fit thhe description of an atheist, I’m just pointing out to people who may misinterpret your comments.
As far as H. Res. 888, what’s the problem? The fact of the matter is, like it or not, America, as a nation, does in fact have a great degree of religious history. It would be silly to deny it, and what is wrong with having a week to recognize the religious history of America? I would be vexed if it did not equally point out all of the historical religions (especially that many of the Founding were not tecnically Christians, but instead were Deists), and besides, why is it that what the House of Representatives passes that has nothing to do with anything but recognizeing the existence of history matters to me, or you, or anyone who is not in the House?
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By: phoenixofdiscordia on November 3, 2008
at 9:49 PM
In the election of 1800, Thomas Jefferson was called a Godless heretic a number of times. It didn’t work then. About 208 years later in an age where there’s more than one religion in America and the vast majority of the population is fine with that, it’s probably not going to work either.
I remember that in 2006, it didn’t work for Harris in FL when she condemned the entire Democratic party as heretics and called for a quasi-theocracy in government.
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By: gfish on November 3, 2008
at 9:31 PM
Keeping all references to God, Allah, or any name that represents our one and only creator (yes, we all have the same creator else we would have many more severe differences than we actually do) is the only way to respect our Almighty as well as each other, which is what Separation of Church and State is all about. Dole was wrong to mention God in any capacity, as if any of us have the right to judge in His name. In her ignorance, she spoke about Godless Americans, not calling Haggan godless per se. Then, Haggan’s people did what all paid political staff do. They found something to jump on, make a commercial about and assumed people would put value in something seen or heard in the media as Truth. We have a responsibility to research whatever we choose to believe in before presuming it to be fact.
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By: blahgblahg on November 3, 2008
at 8:19 PM
[…] Elizabeth Dole Just Started a Jihad (Seven Posts in Seven Days – Day 6) Now folks of all the things that have scared me this year in politics, one of the […] […]
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By: Top Posts « WordPress.com on November 3, 2008
at 7:03 PM
obama!
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By: heru on November 3, 2008
at 6:48 PM
Keep sending em’ our way Sarah 🙂
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By: RiverOtter on November 3, 2008
at 5:49 PM
great blog! i have sarah palin to thank for me finding your blog. unfortunately, so far….that’s all she’s been good for.
keep up the very cool posts!
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By: goodbear on November 3, 2008
at 5:43 PM
All Atheists and other Religions:
While you are at it you should look up H.RES.888.
Our time is being wasted in Congress. Damn them!
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By: RiverOtter on November 3, 2008
at 5:38 PM
Why do we have to have a Republican Party? Can’t we just get rid of them and bring in a new nicer party?
Oh wait, I almost forgot that’s exactly what we all get to do tomorrow. Get them all out, they all need to go.
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By: Vaughn on November 3, 2008
at 5:37 PM
DARN IT! I sent that last one too soon.
Please check the website out. Especially if you are Atheist or any other religion other then Christain and want to stay that way.
I can see that the Republicans and some democrats are waisting time & money on things that are not as important as the issues we are facing today.
I AM TOTALLY FRUSTRATED AND DISCUSTED!
I will make sure I keep up to date on these issues.
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By: RiverOtter on November 3, 2008
at 5:32 PM
HOLY CRAP! You all need to go to Godless American PAC . There are some things you ALL might be interested in having a look at.
I just came from there for the first time.
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By: RiverOtter on November 3, 2008
at 5:26 PM
For Amanda who needs a history lesson not taught by any ‘party’. Here are some of the notes from the Constitutional Convention so that you may become better informed before your next post:
10. Why Three Delegates Didn’t Sign
Mason and Gerry were members of the Gerry Committee that proposed the Connecticut Compromise. A generally overlooked component of the Compromise was the agreement that money bills would originate in the House and could not be amended in the Senate. This feature was vital in winning over Mason and Gerry, as well as Randolph who introduced the wholly national Virginia Plan. These three delegates were willing to buy into the partly national, partly federal arrangement if the principle of no taxation without popular representation was followed.
On August 6, the Committee of Detail Report was presented and Article IV, Section 5 honored this agreement. On August 8, however, the delegates agreed to drop this provision. On August 13, Dickinson attempted to reassure Randolph et al that as far as money bills are be concerned,” Experience should be our only guide. Reason may mislead us.” The defeat of the money bills provision marks the critical moment for the three dissenters. By early September, all three delegates had become concerned that Constitution had given far too much authority to the Senate and that the executive contained the seeds of monarchy.
By September 10, Randolph was convinced that Congress now possessed sufficient powers to turn the Philadelphia Constitution into a wholly national document. He decided to withhold his signature because he thought the Constitution contained the potentiality to shift rapidly from the republican foundation insisted upon in the Virginia Plan that Randolph introduced.
Randolph listed 12 objections among which were: “on the necessity of 3/4 instead of 2/3 of each house to overrule the negative of the President (&) on the smallness of the number of the representative branch.” The delegates reached out to Randolph during the last week and responded to each of these objections, but to no avail. He was particularly concerned about “the general clause concerning necessary and proper laws,” as a major source of future tyranny.
On September 15, Gerry concurred: “the rights of the citizens were… rendered insecure” by 1. The general power of the Legislature to make what laws they may please to call necessary and proper. 2. To raise armies and money without limit. 3. To establish a tribunal without juries, which will be a Star-Chamber as to Civil Cases. “He could… get over” his eight other objections if these three were overcome.
On September 15, Mason listed sixteen objections among which were the absence of a declaration of rights, the 1808 compromise on the slave trade, and the general power of the Senate in the system, the “shadow of representation” in the House, and the powers of the President. He too criticized the presence of the necessary and proper clause in the Constitution:
Under their own construction of the general clause, at the end of the enumerated powers, the Congress may grant monopolies in trade and commerce, constitute new crimes, inflict unusual and severe punishments, and extend their powers as far as they think proper; so that the State legislatures have no security for the powers not presumed to remain to them, or the people for their rights.
Interestingly, Mason, Gerry, and Randolph were more concerned that the Constitution departed from the traditional principles of republicanism than that the Constitution departed too far from the traditional principles of federalism.
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By: sophiagroup on November 3, 2008
at 4:18 PM
Hey Amanda,
For one thing, there is nothing wrong with being an Atheist. There is nothing wrong with taking and Atheist’s, money. As a matter of fact, Atheists do buisness with Christians everyday of every year. Atheist’s donate to charitable causes. They help their Christian friends and family without bias.
There is good and bad in all religions including Atheism. So If you think the money that Hagen recieved is dirty why don’t you look up the statistics between Christians and Atheists. It’s online.
Statistics show that Atheists are better educated, more lawful, and more likely to stay married.
Atheists just don’t believe in God that’s it. That really isn’t anything to be scared of. They just don’t want to be ruled by any particular religion.
I am a proud Atheist. I have a spotless record both criminal and credit. I donate to christian causes during Christmas. I donate to the Boy Scouts. I care about our country, the economy and environment as do many other Atheists and Christians alike.
I would like Dole to know that her Bigotry will not go unheard. I am running on the back of my vehical in big white letters, “DOLE IS A BIGOT” right under my Darwin fish. It is being seen from Greensboro to Raleigh / Durham and all points inbetween.
Atheist voices NEED to be heard!!!!!
Doles Campaign# 704-633-0014
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By: RiverOtter on November 3, 2008
at 4:07 PM
I live in NC also and I have to say I checked out the Godless Americans site after seeing the ad and promptly signed up to be put on their yahoo groups list to help take action to keep church and state separate, I also voted for Hagan.
However one of the posters here hit the nail on the head regarding the two parties here in NC being completely corrupt and simply because of that in many cases, I researched and voted Libertarian in state races this year as well as in the past.
There have been so many times I’ve been ashamed of NC politics but this latest smear campaign from Dole has really lowered the bar to an all new low I really never imagined I’d see. You know you’d think that at some point in your lifetime you’d get to a place where nothing they’d do would surprise you, I think Dole pushed me over that little ledge and personally I’ll be glad to see the old bat unfurl her leathery wings and fly away. (no offense to bats was intended in my commentary, bats are actually useful and cute which is more than I can say for Dole)
All I can say is that for the undecideds still left out there, weigh the dirty politicking tactics and the attack ads, then consider the source and you’ll quickly clear the clouds of confusion that you may push the button, or fill in the little circle with the assurance that you’ve made the right choice for you.
Thanks Helen and Margaret this forum is my one bright spot of late and I love you for posting!
Tay
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By: sophiagroup on November 3, 2008
at 3:50 PM
LADIES,
MY ONLY DAUGHT IS 17 YEARS OLD AND WAS NERVER LUCKY ENOUGH TO SPEND TIME WITH MY MOTHER WHO PASSED AWAY BEFORE SHE WAS BORN. I SHOWED HER YOU BLOG LAST WEEK. SINCE THEN IT HAS CAUGHT N LIKE WIDFIRE WITH HER FRIENDS. THEY ARE REFERRING TO YOU AS THIER “SARROGAT GRANDMAS”. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SHARING YOUR WELL EARN AND WELL THOUGHT OUT WISDOM.
GOD BLESS BOTH OF YOU
PS…….PLEASE KEEP POSTING
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By: DAN IN BUFFALO on November 3, 2008
at 3:49 PM
Helen – thank you for pointing out something that really is beginning to scare me. The Religious right in this country say that they do everything in the name of their Christian God. Well I am Catholic (and yes Catholic’s are Christian) and my God is not the hateful, judgemental, intolerant being they are making him/her out to be. The definition of a Christian is someone who lives their life Christ-like – meaning that you are a kind, patient, understanding and tolerant human being. I don’t think you need to be affiliated with any particular religion to fit this description. In my experience, those who say they are Christian are anything but.
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By: Kathleen on November 3, 2008
at 3:19 PM
In response to butterflyspoointofview…
I agree it is essentially impossible to run for office without some mention of religious faith. What is ironic and what most are unaware of is that the only time god or religion is mentioned it the Constitution is in article six. Article six prohibits any religious test for federal office. It seems to have been turned on its head.
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By: devoutsider on November 3, 2008
at 3:06 PM
Hi, fantastic blog.
Keep up the good work.
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By: 2lesbosgoinatit on November 3, 2008
at 1:46 PM
Helen,
The funniest comment that I’ve heard from the Republicans—specifically—Palin….was that it was “God’s will” to be done whatever the outcome on Nov 4th!!! I can’t wait to write her an email telling her it was “God’s will” that Barack Obama won the White House. So, that will mean SHE was not on God’s list of first responders. hahahahahaha!!!
Thank God for his will!!! Go Obama/Biden! We take the White House!!!
Your friend,
Karen
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By: Karen P on November 3, 2008
at 12:28 PM
I seriously can’t believe religion plays such a big part of politics over in the US. Quite frankly I find it scary.
~SquiggleHidingOutInTheUK~
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By: Squiggle on November 3, 2008
at 11:53 AM
butterflyspointofview–I’m not saying that I disagree with your point about the US and politics/religion, but I can’t imagine that it is truly better in the UK where the Prime Minister appoints the head of the Anglican church.
Thanks again Helen & Margaret! I always thought that Elizabeth Dole would be a good Republican candidate for President, as she seemed very reasonable on things when I heard her, but the recent tv ads are APPALLING!
And, one more comment, just because it has been on my mind while reading the local letters to the editor–being “socialist” is exactly what Jesus and Paul told us we were supposed to do as Christians!
grace 🙂
http://goodnessgraciouswv.wordpress.com
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By: goodnessgraciouswv on November 3, 2008
at 11:46 AM
One more thing:
“That the founders made erecting a church-state wall their first priority when they added the Bill of Rights to the Constitution reveals the importance they placed on maintaining what Isaac Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore have called a “godless Constitution.” When Benjamin Franklin proposed during the Constitutional Convention that the founders begin each day of their labors with a prayer to God for guidance, his suggestion was defeated.
Given this tradition, it’s not surprising that the original Pledge of Allegiance—meant as an expression of patriotism, not religious faith—also made no mention of God. The pledge was written in 1892 by the socialist Francis Bellamy, a cousin of the famous radical writer Edward Bellamy. He devised it for the popular magazine Youth’s Companion on the occasion of the nation’s first celebration of Columbus Day. Its wording omitted reference not only to God but also, interestingly, to the United States:
“I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.””
http://www.slate.com/id/2067499/
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By: yobimbo on November 3, 2008
at 11:36 AM
More information about James Madison and the Separation of church and State:
http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/qmadison.htm
And, from Memorial and Remonstrance:
“Because the establishment proposed by the Bill is not requisite for the support of the Christian Religion. To say that it is, is a contradiction to the Christian Religion itself, for every page of it disavows a dependence on the powers of this world: it is a contradiction to fact; for it is known that this Religion both existed and flourished, not only without the support of human laws , but in spite of every opposition from them, and not only during the period of miraculous aid, but long after it had been left to its own evidence and the ordinary care of Providence.”
http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/memorial.htm
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By: yobimbo on November 3, 2008
at 11:33 AM
Helen hang in there one more day! I was at the grocery store yesterday and a guy hollered from accross the parking lot, (he must have seen my Obama bumper sticker) “Yeah, we got it, 2 more days.” Must have also been a Packer fan.
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By: Aliceson on November 3, 2008
at 11:22 AM
God doesn’t whip people’s asses Ron.
Sigh…
I wish it was Wednesday already. We are exhausted,
aren’t we?
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By: troutay on November 3, 2008
at 11:19 AM
My God can whip your God’s ass.
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By: Ron on November 3, 2008
at 10:44 AM
Sarah Palin is a loser…
And by Wednesday she will be popping pills with Cindy McCain!!!!
http://andthisismyamerica.com/2008/11/03/has-the-silent-majority-become-the-misinformed-minority-almost-40-years-later/
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By: thelogicalsmoker on November 3, 2008
at 10:37 AM
Helen, are you sure you aren’t a Canadian? I was raised in a little town in Ontario in my pre-school years and as such inculcated not only the obvious but the tacit parts of the culture. A Canadian, such as the little old lady in tennis shoes from Moosejaw, would never get into somebody’s most private stuff such as their religion, sexual practices, etc. Nor would she ever call somebody godless! There is a clear “no-go” zone and they do this so they can not only survive but thrive! Your take on all of these subjects in so many of your blogs – not just about Liddy “do nothing” Dole – is right out of the Canadian playbook! Go, Helen!
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By: Mageen on November 3, 2008
at 10:31 AM
For a fun little exercise, I’d suggest a little reading of political rhetoric from the days of yore. In recent memory we have the pillorying of Romney for his Mormonism, JFK for his Catholicism, and Al Smith for the same. Going back to William Jennings Bryan and even the likes of Henry Clay the admixture of religion and politics has always been a staple of American provincialism. Slavery was not just a civil issue, it was religious as well. Civil Rights were championed in the black community not by civil leaders but religious leaders. Such diverse causes as Prohibition and Women’s Suffrage were all tightly bound to the progressive religious climate of their day.
Separation of church and state does not mean that religion is silent in politics, nor that politicians are exempt from religious speech (First Amendment guarantees that both will continue) but it means that no religion is established as the state religion in this country. It also means that religious speech from politicians has no legally binding force unlike the Ayatollah or Dalai Lama to both a greater and lesser extent.
Dole can say whatever fool thing she wants. Even religious speech. It’s a First Amendment guarantee. Not only that, but you can say anything you want about Dole saying fool things because the same Amendment guarantees freedom of the Press. And if you want to start a rally to either protest or support Dole’s idiotic comments, you can do that too, thanks to the same Amendment. That road has to run both ways. Remember, the First Amendment guarantees the protection of unpopular speech. Popular speech, by definition, needs no such protection. (kudos to Neal Boortz for that observation)
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By: rick on November 3, 2008
at 10:30 AM
Wow you really don’t know much about the constitution or the “seperation of church and state” issue. There is no such verbage in the Bill of Rights written by the founding fathers. The subject comes from a conversation between the Danbury, CT baptists and Thomas Jefferson. Try researching real history, not the liberal’s version of it. Go back and look at the 1st ammendment please. As to the “history” lesson you placed in your post, I can’t believe you can’t see the forest for the trees. Those men didn’t want to sign the documents due to an all powerful government? What in the name of all that is good and holy do you think Obama wants to do with government should he get into office? He sure as the day is long is not going to reduce it’s size, no he plans on increasing it and making everyone look to it for assistance. That sounds like an all powerful government to me. I’m not Dole’s biggest fan (or fan at all for that matter, I voted against her) but to see someone with no or limited knowledge of history and then espousing rhetoric as though it was fact, I can’t let slide.
By the way, I live in NC, and don’t really pay attention to the ads but this one caught my attention. My question is not about whether or not Hagan is a Sunday School teacher or an elder in her church, but that she went to a fundraiser in the home of a leader of the “Godless in Amercia” that was given by that foundation. If she didn’t want to be linked, she shouldn’t have gone to the fundraiser in the first place. Point is she didn’t think she’d get caught. But I am a complete idiot who really isn’t paying attention. I only read the parts of your blog that would prove my point and have now added my own wording to make my own case. My god is better than everyoe elses God because he talks to me pesonally. I know. I am his favorite.
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By: Amanda on November 3, 2008
at 10:21 AM
Helen and Margaret you are the greatest! I am buying a T-shirt AND a mug!!!
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By: JuJu J. on November 3, 2008
at 9:30 AM
@ bobbie 5:50 a.m.
Don’t get too caught up in blaming religion itself. It’s the people who start the wars, and the real aim is usually control, power, wealth, land, etc. The leaders and the overzealous folks couch their actions in religion, but if religion didn’t exist, they’d find some other excuse readily enough. We’d simply see more wars based around race, ethnicity, culture, etc.
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By: Deacon Blue on November 3, 2008
at 9:27 AM
Helen – I love you I really mean it.
Libby is a discriminatory bigot and should be ashamed of herself. She’s feeling the heat as she should!
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By: Amanda on November 3, 2008
at 9:19 AM
Kay Hagen signed a paper saying she would not raise taxes in NC as a state senator. well since she came into office she has voted close to 30 times to raise taxes. So i just want to thank all of you foryour support of her and if you get what you want you will all be complaining 6 years from now when she is up for re-election.
People always want change and are looking for someone to blame when it is really it is your own lives and choices that have gotten you where you are at.
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By: Carla on November 3, 2008
at 9:14 AM
Again – you hit the target.
What scares me is that over the last two decades, and even more so since 9/11/01, there has risen this idea, this nationalism, this belief that if you don’t agree with the side “God” or the country is on then you are anathema, you are evil.
Whatever happened to public discourse? Whatever happened to the ability to disagree and come to compromise solutions? (Something our Congressional leaders could learn once again)
The whole Dixie Chicks thing a few years back really scared me, what is this nation coming to?
Sarah Palin has already said that attacking her opinions is the same as attacking her constitutional rights of free speech. WHAT!!?? I’m sorry, but the way I was raised, the ability to disagree with someone publicly is the foundation of our right of free speech. She has the right to sound like a boob and the media has the right to say so.
Shame on Elizabeth Dole for using that kind of comparison. She has the right to say it, but is it a right she is using in the best interest of her campaign and the people that she represents.
I think not.
Again – Thank you Helen and Margaret, I’ll be glad when this election is over.
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By: Mike M on November 3, 2008
at 9:08 AM
Thanks Margaret and Helen. Living here in North Carolina and reading/listening to Liddy Dole’s crap is almost too heavy a burden to bear. She has now fully replaced Jesse Helms, now deceased senior resident racist. Except Liddy is a ranking member of the Christian Taliban.
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By: Richard Schmidt on November 3, 2008
at 9:05 AM
Thank you so much for your rendering of Elizabeth Dole. In a state where religion matters more than I wish to admit, an ad like this is so foul and so very, very sad that a political person would have to stoop so low ito try to win the election.
Thank you for your candid look at politics at its very worst. And to think Dole has a second ad related to the first! I guess she does not know when to stop. I am hoping for a blue NC this election!
Carol
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By: Carol Schmidt on November 3, 2008
at 9:00 AM
My mother is eighty-five and she uses old Missouri common sense to talk politics. She is voting for Obama. ……
http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/11/02/old-women-talk-politics/
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By: Ohg Rea Tone on November 3, 2008
at 8:19 AM
I live in western kentucky. My husband and I went into town today and I actually saw several Obama signs in yards. Since Ky is generally considered a Republican state I was thrilled to say the least! I can’t wait to vote tomorrow.
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By: Lisa from Kentucky on November 3, 2008
at 8:17 AM
Thanks for such a great post, http://starstylefile.wordpress.com/
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By: webescape on November 3, 2008
at 7:26 AM
What angers me most about this is that “godless” is still accepted as the ultimate insult on both sides of the Political Party isle. Every candidate is eager to make sure voters know just how god-fearing they are.
Personally, I would jump at the chance to vote for a candidate who admitted to being an atheist, who recognizes that we have freedom of religion, but NOT freedom FROM religion, which is even more important. I would love to vote for a candidate who promised NOT to use the Bible to make policy decisions.
Atheists are the only group more marginalized than gays.
*sigh*
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By: Mrs Chaucer's Pirate on November 3, 2008
at 7:17 AM
Strange isn’t it? Disagreements over religion have started more wars and inspired people to more atrocities against one another than almost anything else. What a sorry mess people make of the world God gave us.
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By: Bobbie on November 3, 2008
at 5:50 AM
Don’t you just love Monday’s? Always represents a “new beginning” to me, something to look forward to.
Today, on this Monday, I discover I am a “lover of sheep!” How ironic is that?
Now when someone says have you read the comments section at Margaret & Helen, I will just nod my head and say ………. Naaaaaaaaaaaah.
DS
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By: Don Smith on November 3, 2008
at 4:41 AM
i think it’s about time schools (in the US and Europe) went back to teaching more history. People need to remember why separation of church from politics is a formal, legal issue (as in France) or an informal thing (as in the UK).
I’m a Yorkshirewoman, in England. I am rather fed up that so much of my daily paper is devoted to the American presidential election when I don’t have a vote, but I’m also glad to know so many Americans are taking an interest and playing a part in their political process.
Over here, it’s bad manners to ask someone about their religion, and it’s really, really rude to wave your religion in someone’s face.
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By: Stroppy Rachel on November 3, 2008
at 4:23 AM
Helen: my friend alerted me to your blog last week and I re-read every one of them, more than once. You are the only person I’ve seen who gets everything right 100% of the time! Thank you so much…although you are the ONLY one I’ve seen do this, it is still reassuring that you exist! Plus, you are so clever and witty with your interpretations. You should go work for The Daily Show, you would fit right in.
Have you heard that Sarah Palin took out a business license in the State of Alaska for a consulting company she called “Rouge Cou”–REDNECK, in French. This I think this says a lot about her disgusting self-perception (and shows a lack of maturity, especially since–what would that name have to do with political consulting?), but it is not surprising. I think from her behavior thru the campaign cycle, it is painfully obvious what a bigot she is.
The following is a link to her business license/company name information from the State’s search option:
http://www.commerce.state.ak.us/occ/bussearch/BusDetail.cfm?LicNum=310429
I wish it were easier to spread the word on this topic! Thanks for your committment to common sense and righteousness!
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By: Alaskan Against Palin on November 3, 2008
at 4:16 AM
The new poll tax! Some information from Rachel Maddow.
http://miaculpa.blogspot.com/2008/11/rachel-maddow-show_02.html
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By: JuneauJoe on November 3, 2008
at 3:33 AM
Helen, you are quite right. Mrs. Dole’s use of religion as a means of coming out ahead is appaling.
BlueLikeTheSky, you bring up a good point.
Remember, state level judges are often elected. Remember to elect someone who will use the law to interpret the law, and not something else.
I saw somewhere in these comments a reference to abortion, and why someone can’t understand why someone is pro-life. Well, I’m pro-life. Were I to have my say, abortion would be allowed only where the life of the mother is at stake, and in cases of rape and incest. BUT… big but. My say, in my view, extends only to my own unborn children. That is to say, not at all in cases of rape or incest since I am a male, and therefore would not become pregnant were I the victim of one of those. For this reason, I am completely, and totally FOR leaving abortion completely legal and available.
My views on abortion come from my religion, I am a Roman Catholic. But, certainly, not everyone believes the same way as me, and it’s my duty, as a man of faith, to maintain my OWN personal faith, not force it down other people’s throats through legislation.
Well, I’m sure no one really cares about my views, but, hey this is a nice place to vent, and I’d like to thank all of you who read the posts I make, and especially thanks to Helen, Margaret, and Matthew, for allowing us to say such things, and more importantly, for allowing this blog to exist in the first place. God bless you all.
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By: phoenixofdiscordia on November 3, 2008
at 1:31 AM
Wow!!! I love your blog! I have already voted, against Dole and for Kay Hagan!!! Not all people from NC are stupid, a lot of us can see through this shit!!! And by the way, you can call Sarah Palin a dumb bitch all you want. Your right to freedom of speech is in the Constitution, but don’t expect her to know where to find it!!!
YOU ROCK!!!! Keep on bloggin’!!!
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By: NC Kate on November 3, 2008
at 1:27 AM
Concerned about separation of church and state? Then do everything you can to insure that Barack Obama is the next president so that the Supreme Court does not fall into the hands of theocratic “activist’ judges.
Imagine a court on which the next two or three Justices mirror the views of Thomas, Alito, Roberts, and Scalia.
Don’t forget that Kennedy is now the center.
We can say what we want about the economy and the military and the federal budget. But if the Supreme Court begins to limit our rights, none of that will matter.
Also, vote “down ballot” to insure that any elected judiciary positions are filled by those who use law rather than politics or religion when they rule from the bench.
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By: BlueLikeTheSky on November 3, 2008
at 12:23 AM
As a person who has many friends who are “godless americans” – actual members of the organization I was shocked and disgusted by the ad by Mrs. Dole. I am also getting very tired of feeling as though the majority of politicans feel that anyone who isn’t a Christian isn’t a real or true American.
Its really sad that our country with so many freedoms has so many people showing their true colours and want to run this country. And I don’t think its going to get any better at all.
Thank you for your post! Its nice to know that I am not alone in these feelings.
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By: varza on November 2, 2008
at 11:52 PM
Thrilled to have found your blog! Keep it coming 🙂
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By: Erin on November 2, 2008
at 11:38 PM
Excellent call. Dole’s claim of “godless” is an ancient trick that still works unfortunately. But it’s worth thinking about the number of agnostics or atheists elected to Congress right now. Are there any? Could one get elected? What does that say about our society today?
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By: Aoi on November 2, 2008
at 11:02 PM
Thanks Helen and Margaret,
If you see problems with voting: Get your camera, shoot video and send it to:
http://videothevote.org/
Long lines, names not on polls, intimidation or misinformation – get it on camera so any problems can be documented.
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By: JuneauJoe on November 2, 2008
at 10:57 PM
I love NC. But we do have such a problem with religiosity. I laughed for an hour at the look on the face of a Church of Christ friend when I explained that Allah and God were the same entity, GASP!!!!
Helen, I am so glad i discovered your blog and your wit. I print out your posts to take to my mother who isnt at all computer literate. Bless her heart!!! (NC dialect directed at someone you have told an uncharming truth about) My mother and sister and new citizen brother-in-law and my daughter and I have all voted for Obama and Hagen. All these votes are dedicated to our new Guru Helen. Just Please Helen Do Not Stop Posting After The Election. You have so many friends online now who would miss you so much. BTW thanksgiving is coming up soon and we would love to know how this holiday goes this year.
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By: Jo on November 2, 2008
at 10:27 PM
Mr. Smith. I don’t believe Helen quoted the constitution. She referred to a concept which certainly does exists and was discussed at length by many of our founding fathers who saw it as a corner stone for a new type of government. So take that and go back to sleeping with sheep or whatever you were doing before you came here and tried to wrongfully attack the author of this blog.
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By: Tracy on November 2, 2008
at 10:18 PM
But Helen, think of all the positives of a holy war…
…big boost to the defense industry, which means more jobs (not enough jobs to replace all that we’ve lost to our failing economy, but still…)
…if we win, we can prance around saying “our God is bigger than your God!” (we’ll gloss over the part about us worshipping the same God that spoke to Abraham, just in vastly different ways)
…We’ll help ease stresses on our healthcare, insurance, social security and other areas by reducing the population
and, and…
…OK, I’m scrambling here. Sarah? Sarah, can you help me out here with some more positives?
Oh, you’re on the phone with President Sarkozy of France? Sorry, about that…get back to me later then…
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By: Deacon Blue on November 2, 2008
at 10:09 PM
I just found you today. Thank you for making me laugh. I will be back…again and again…as long as you are writing.
Count me among those who want you to keep writing long after the election.
And by the way, I VOTED.
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By: Wanda on November 2, 2008
at 10:00 PM
Bible thumpers always think their pet projects are “from God.” It’s terribly convenient for them, that God likes what they like and hates what they hate. It’s almost like having their very own “you’re always right” card.
I’m sure God likes that.
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By: churk on November 2, 2008
at 9:33 PM
Thanks D 🙂
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By: RiverOtter on November 2, 2008
at 9:23 PM
Although the phrase “Separation of church and state” do not actually occur in the Constitution, that phrase clearly states in a simpler form what the writers meant. Madison wrote it, and agreed with this concept.
I would also point out that the phrases “Government by consent of the governed”, “No taxation without representation”, and “Checks and balances” do not occur in the Constitution either, but the concepts do.
I disagree with Helen on one point. Godlesness, or labeling people as godless had nothing to do with 9-11; the people who flew airplanes into buildings did so as an act of faith. This doesn’t mean all atheists are good. Atheism only decribes what a person doesn’t belive in, not what they do value. There have been evil atheists just as there have been evil theists. There is, however, a major subset of modern atheists who are rationalists and secular humanists. Many of their values (not all) are identical to the values theists claim to hold dear; they are just derived from reason instead of belief/superstition.
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By: Tim H on November 2, 2008
at 9:16 PM
Don
Its ok, I understood you.
Way to go again Helen! Say hello to Margaret!
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By: troutay on November 2, 2008
at 9:16 PM
RiverOtter-
I LOVE IT!!!!
If I were in NC, I would be on the side of I-85 cheering you on!!!
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By: D on November 2, 2008
at 9:09 PM
Jeeze Louise,
I guess I can rest my case about the defensive thing. You’re right, however, Carolann what makes this blog so good is that Margaret and Helen present it with such good humor and intelligence. It IS all about how refreshing they are, and how they inject humor into horrific events. There is a “comments” section though, and we’re all allowed to do so. Hope I didn’t offend you too much.
Oh, and yes, I remember Rodney King. That was my attempt to try and inject humor into a horrific event (just like Margaret and Helen do). Sorry if it offended you
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By: vicki on November 2, 2008
at 9:02 PM
I’m from Raleigh, NC. It is time for Dole to go! I hope that Hagan wins a major lawsuit against her due to damage from that ad. It is despicable. But I do wish that Hagan had had the guts to say, “So what? We have separation of church and state in this country. Atheists, agnostics and anyone and everyone deserves a right to be heard.” She still needs to say that. She needs to make that ad.
If Dole had used any other minority group (gays, women, Muslims, blacks, etc.) in the ad, I am certain there would have been an outcry from that targeted audience. And so it should also be from atheists and all those who are appalled that she signaled out atheists.
As soon as that ad came out, I immediately started talking to everyone who would listen about being sure to vote for Hagan. I believe that the majority in NC will see through Dole this time. Too bad so many voted early and did not get to see this spectacle. But I am just hoping that Dole put the nail in her own coffin.
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By: Jeanne Rhea on November 2, 2008
at 9:00 PM
Dear Helen and Margaret,
Today’s piece was your best yet! Keep it up!
I just want to say something that has been pretty much put on the back burner in the political scene of late. War. I am not a fan of war. I suppose there are times when there is no other choice, but…..
My big brother was my hero. Not because he fought in World War II in North Africa, Sicily, and after 387 frontline fighting days, was blown up by a land mine on the beachhead at Anzio, Italy. He was 24. That was terrible loss and grief. No, he was my hero because when I was about 6, at my birthday party, he took all my little friends for a ride on his horse, leading the old nag around the yard by the reins.
So there is Iraq. We were sold a bill of goods about what an awful man Sadam Hussein was, (he was!), how he had WMDs and was coming to get us!!! Reminiscent of the Cold War when “The Russians are coming!!! “The Russians are coming!!!” Now it‘s ‘The Terrorists are coming!!! The Terrorists are coming!!!” Next it will be “The Iranians are coming!!! The Iranians are coming!!!” The Fear Factor.
There are some pretty bad people in the world like Ben Ladin. Always have been. (In my book, anybody who sits around plotting how to kill people is certifiably insane.) His influential and wealthy family in Saudia Arabia disowned him. His country expelled him to Sudan where he was up to his usual trouble making. He wound up in Afghanistan where he and his merry men fought against the Russian invasion. The U.S. sent Ben Ladin arms and encouragement. The U.S. and Russia played a great game of “Let’s YOU and HIM fight on YOUR land with YOUR blood.
How do you deal with the bad guys of the world? The Bush Administration’s policy has been sort of like going after a mosquito with a sledgehammer while it’s sitting on a sliding glass door. You swing and miss. What have you got then? A big mess of shattered glass with the mosquito still flying around to bite you when you’re sleeping. That mosquito is probably carrying malaria and yellow fever around. Or for all we know, Bubonic Plague. More Fear Factor.
The results in Iraq are a daily list of casualties, young soldiers as my brother was. Beside that, a gazillion dollars a month go down the drain except for the likes of Halliburton and Blackwater. Does anyone in the Pentagon bother to even keep a tally on the Iraqi civilians killed or maimed? With Cheney and Rumsfeld whispering in each ear, Bush was too dumb to realize that this was pure folly. Further, they managed to make the American people complicit when we supported the whole preposterous proposition.
McCain continues to rattle his saber. He passionately wants to be Commander-in Chief.
By contrast, Obama is extremely cautious about committing military action only as a last resort.
Come Tuesday, lets remember the words of the French philosopher Voltaire:
“Those who can persuade you to believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
Aloha!
Jean
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By: Jean on November 2, 2008
at 8:55 PM
Always a breath of fresh reality. Thanks
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By: john on November 2, 2008
at 8:26 PM
Elizabeth Dole,
I am an Atheist living in North Carolina and I vote.
I have on the back of my vehical in big white letters, “DOLE IS A BIGOT!” right under my Darwin fish.
Let me tell you, It is getting LOTS of attention from folks that travel I 85 / I40 between Greensboro & Raleigh. I can run 200 miles a day and that’s not including the extra-cirricular I WILL be running.
It will be on there until you either LOSE the election or you remove the 2nd ad and apologize to the American people for being a Bigot, Hypocrit, and Ignoramous.
Atheist voices NEED to be heard.
Dole’s campaign #704-633-0014
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By: RiverOtter on November 2, 2008
at 8:14 PM
If McCain and the Republicans picked Sarah Palin for VP (with the blessings of Bush and Cheney), who are they going to pick for: Department Heads, Supreme Court Justices, other judicial appointments, other government positions???
It’s not just SP becoming President that is terrifying, it’s the entire weight of reckless, irresponsible political appointments and catering to the CEO’s and lobbyists and bankers and insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies and Big Oil. It’s about corporate welfare and loss of privacy and about people for clean air being added to terror alert lists. And if you’re not for the Patriot Act and the loss of your citizen rights, then you’re not a real American.
It’s about some people wanting to criminalize women and their doctors for making decisions that are best made by women and their doctors. It’s about regressing back to the darkest of dark ages with intolerance being the rule of law.
Obama/Biden in ’08 for:
**a smarter energy policy and investment in jobs and workers
**national unity
**diplomacy skills and a more peaceful and safe world
**your health and the health of the planet
**a steady hand at the helm
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By: A Nana from Alaska on November 2, 2008
at 7:43 PM
I just discovered this blog and it is now bookmarked both at home and at work. I’ve been enjoying it enormously, and hope to read all the archives eventually.
Helen and Margaret and I can remember when “under God” wasn’t in the Pledge of Allegiance. I believe it was put in there while Eisenhower was president. I don’t feel that it belongs there. This does not mean I’m an atheist or anti-American, I just think government is government, and religion (or the lack thereof) is private.
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By: Judy on November 2, 2008
at 7:13 PM
Way to go, Carolann…my thoughts exactly. Helen…you rock!
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By: Smitty on November 2, 2008
at 7:00 PM
If I remember correctly, this was a blog started by Margaret & Helen for Margaret & Helen to be enjoyed by the rest of us. It is nice that people like Alexandra (a nice woman) and Don (a nice man) can have a discussion about constitutional wording, but wouldn’t it have been nicer to thank Margaret & Helen for their nice thoughts on the travesty called politics in NC? Wouldn’t it have been nice to agree to disagree (or agree) just once and then let it go? So…Margaret & Helen? Thank you so much for how nicely you’ve conducted yourselves through the last years. I come here every day to remind myself that there are really nice people in the world who really mean what they say when they say it. Isn’t that nice? By the way, Vicki (you’re so nice!)? That famous man, who said, ‘can’t we all just get along?’ was Rodney King after he’d had the daylights beaten out of him by some white guys during a riot (he was black). Wasn’t he extra nice?
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By: Carolann on November 2, 2008
at 6:54 PM
Just got home from my 86-year-old mom’s house. She is voting Obama. I am so proud of her.
Mom’s a little apprehensive about electronic voting. She has never touched a computer and would have a rotary dial telephone if they still made them. So we let her *practice* on an iPhone to get the feel of touch screens. She’s ready for Tuesday!
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By: Maven on November 2, 2008
at 6:28 PM
Dear Alexandria810,
I gotta agree here that, re Don Smith and his comment, you’re getting “all Republican on his ass” did no good what-so-ever. He made a statement and not in a confrontation manner, I might add. One has to admire a person who will look up something they want to learn more about. Far be it for us to knit-pick it to death.
The thing I hate most about this election is the attitude of 99% of the Republicans (and some of the Democrats) out there. They are defensive and irrational. What ever you do, please don’t try to confuse them with facts. I have family and friends that I can’t even speak to until after Tuesday.
I truly admire that you apologized. That was an honorable thing to do. Let’s just pray that Tuesday comes quickly, I can hardly keep it in myself.
As a famous man one said, “can’t we all just get along?”.
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By: vicki on November 2, 2008
at 5:28 PM
AMEN!
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By: Anonymous on November 2, 2008
at 5:03 PM
Trying to justify any war whatsoever with a religious purpose is just sick. Religion can’t tell anybody to go and kill. That’s just not how it’s supposed to be.
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By: Bossa on November 2, 2008
at 4:27 PM
Liddy Dole has hit rock bottom. She made not ONE but TWO ads on Kay Hagan’s “Godlessness.” The Republican party and their dirty tricks and mudslinging is wearing thin on Americans – as may soon be seen Tuesday night!
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By: Marie (themom) on November 2, 2008
at 4:25 PM
Don,
I don’t think I called you names – re-reading my message honestly I can’t find where I did. However, regardless, I apologize. (I did call Liddy Dole a bad name and am not sorry for that).
I did question and still do question the intent of your comment. By pointing out that the phrase is not there with NONE of the qualifying information in your second comment MAKES it a half truth and implies to me an intention to misinform others. This is one of the basic arguements of the Religious Right and IT’S A BUNCH OF HOOEY.
No, the exact words aren’t there (and I agreed with that in my first post) – that is true and it is irrelevant. I noted then and I note now that you are splitting hairs. The phrase has been used legally in this country throughout much of it’s history and have been quoted in many cases including, as you note, several cased decided in the supreme court.
Religion is playing a huge role in our politics. That the very core point of this post we are all commenting on. I believe your comment was to argue that separation of church and state is not the law of the land. I don’t agree with you. I believe it is the law as our founders intended it. That doesn’t make us godless, pagans, or atheists. It doesn’t make us catholics, prebysterians, mormons, or muslims. What it does is make it irrelevent to our civil society whether a person belongs the the ‘right’ church or practices the ‘approved’ religion. Theocracy is the last thing I hope for in this country and the risk of it chills my blood.
Perhaps I am mistaken – perhaps your intent was to fuel a dialogue that is not going where you want. If that’s the case, please explain yourself.
I would love to know why you think it matters whether the EXACT words are there or not.
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By: alexandra810 on November 2, 2008
at 3:40 PM
My bowling team will be wearing your T-shirts soon!!! You are great, Helen!!!
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By: Mavis D. on November 2, 2008
at 3:39 PM
One more and I am outta here.
Ann … Glad you enjoyed the video come back anytime.
As for this? Holy smokes, I should have just stayed home and minded my own business. I am not out to convince anyone to see it my way, nor am I here to bring contention and strife to this site.
I just saw a paragraph that read: “There is a reason that separation of church and state exists in the founding documents of our great nation. Our founding fathers were all too familiar with living in a world of religious prosecution just as much as they understood the ramifications of a government without religion. The solution is a government that allows both freedom for religion and freedom from religion. Smart bunch of guys those founding fathers.”
Written by Margaret I assume.
I then pointed out that it wasn’t there, that is all I did. And it isn’t. By the way it was “persecution not prosecution” but who is splitting hairs here.
Possibly one thing that could be improved upon in America is the schools teaching civics to students, that might be a start. Just because someone has an opinion that differs from yours that isn’t a open invitation to go for the jugular or be outright aggressive or offensive.
At least in my generation it was considered at best … rude.
Just because Margaret or Helen, or Don, puts something up, doesn’t mean it is “truth” … It pays to do your homework every now and then, especially when it comes to the Internet.
I don’t usually make long winded comments, and take up a lot of space. Usually I just try to keep it short and to the point.
Forgive me if I upset you or ruined your day in any way shape, form or manner. My intent was to inform and nothing more.
I now return you to your regular programming.
DS
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By: Don Smith on November 2, 2008
at 3:33 PM
I saw Mrs. Dole’s despicable ad, and Mrs. Hagan’s classy ad in response to it on MSNBC. I cannot believe that someone could sink so low as to insinuate that her opponent is “godless”, and to even literally put words in her mouth (“there is no God!”). I am hoping and praying that Mrs. Dole loses by a landslide.
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By: RubyTopaz on November 2, 2008
at 3:29 PM
Thanks for another gr8 read!! You rock!!
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By: Tracy on November 2, 2008
at 3:20 PM
Hey Don , I just found the possibly related posts at the top of this blog.
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By: Ann on November 2, 2008
at 3:10 PM
Amen, Helen. Amen!
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By: pattiblaine on November 2, 2008
at 3:07 PM
I recently moved to NC. I have seen the Dole ad’s first hand, and you say it better and with more impact than I ever could. I have always believed seperation of church and state is a sound principle.
Just send a copy of this blog to my bestest friend Diana. Yesterday she sent me one of your old blogs about Palin. We do this..sorta like Margaret and Helen hehe…
One wonders, do you ever get around to reading all your comments?
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By: lmannix on November 2, 2008
at 3:06 PM
Hey Don, It might have been an interesting factoid to you but it upset me! I went to your blog to see who you might be… I really enjoyed the act from You Tube & I do not think you are a bad guy; but perhaps you might have expanded on your comments so as not to lead some of us who might be more impressionable or less sophisticated or whatever into some turmoil over something very important.
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By: Ann on November 2, 2008
at 3:05 PM
Amen, and amen! I got an email from several people pointing out all the things that were “wrong” about Obama (In their minds) and one of them was, “He supports the separation of church and state.”
Hell, yes! I won’t belabour all the comments about the Constitution and First Amendment, but this is about as fundamental as it gets for me. I don’t want to live in a theocracy, because we will all lose out – every last one of us.
Now that’s a scary as can be.
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By: Rebecca on November 2, 2008
at 3:01 PM
I just had a thought too, does Elizabeth Dole need a history lesson as well as a class on deportment? Many of the founding father’s were diests. AND…wasn’t this country founded on the principles of safety from religious persecution?
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By: smartandfemale on November 2, 2008
at 3:01 PM
Wow! So many comments! I don’t know what I can add to this discourse except keep up the good work. As an 83 year old blogger I say, (in the parlance of today) you rock.
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By: Darlene on November 2, 2008
at 2:40 PM
Alexandria, Here is a definition for you, not mine.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The separation of church and state is a legal and political principle derived from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . .” The phrase “separation of church and state”, which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, where Jefferson spoke of the combined effect of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. It has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court.[1]
So, take it with a grain of salt. It is NOT in there and that is all I was pointing out.
Finally, All I did was make an observation, nothing more. It certainly didn’t warrant childish name calling.
DS
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By: Don Smith on November 2, 2008
at 2:39 PM
Regarding Liddy Dole, I’m just so glad the bitch never became first lady. I never liked her and this ad solidified my opinion.
Good for her opponent for coming back strong. But what a shame that she felt she had to declare her religious credentials to keep in the running.
Can you imagine your boss demanding to know what church you attend?
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By: alexandra810 on November 2, 2008
at 1:57 PM
Ann,
My pleasure. I am so tired of the twisted half truths that permeate our public discussion. It angers me that people are getting away with it rather than be laughed off the stage. Really, all of us deserve better and should demand it daily.
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By: alexandra810 on November 2, 2008
at 1:53 PM
I live in NC and I can tell you that Liddy Dole has gotten nasty. I was so happy to be able to vote against her. I think this “godless” ad of hers was the last nail in her political coffin. May she now spend all her time in Kansas! Sorry, Kansas, she’s all yours.
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By: Amyindurham on November 2, 2008
at 1:48 PM
Thanks Alexandra810. I was troubled
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By: Ann on November 2, 2008
at 1:46 PM
Don Smith,
Really? This is the best you can do?
The clause known commonly as ‘separation of church and state’ is in the Constitution as the First Amendment. It states:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
I’m not certain who, as you state, claims that the ‘exact’ words are in the Constitution but you are correct that the it doesn’t actually use the EXACT words ‘separation of church and state’ ……. but that is a silly parlor trick at best as that is what the First Amendment means.
Your comment is a pathetic attempt at half truths that are easily verifiable as wrong. Splitting hairs does not necessarily win you an argument but it can quickly prove you to be a fool or trying to fool someone else. Why? What is the point of it? How does it help our democracy? How does it further the conversation of what this country should be?
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By: alexandra810 on November 2, 2008
at 1:41 PM
If anyone out there is still undecided, how about this… let’s consider the candidates’ educational backgrounds:
Barack Obama:
Columbia University – B.A. Political Science with a Specialization in International Relations. Harvard – Juris Doctor (J.D.) Magna Cum Laude
Joseph Biden:
University of Delaware – B.A. in History and B.A. in Political Science.
Syracuse University College of Law – Juris Doctor (J.D.)
John McCain:
United States Naval Academy – Class rank: 894 of 899
Sarah Palin:
Hawaii Pacific University – 1 semester
North Idaho College – 2 semesters – general study
University of Idaho – 2 semesters – journalism Matanuska-Susitna College – 1 semester University of Idaho – 3 semesters – B.A. in Journalism (Sports Broadcasting)
Education isn’t everything, but this is about the two highest offices in the land as well as our standing throughout the world.
You make the call.
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By: kat on November 2, 2008
at 1:20 PM
Helen,
I would have to agree with you that those now dead men that decided on the seperation of church and state were some pretty smart guys. Religion seems to cloud people’s minds and create a one-way road to judgemental predisposition. Furthermore, this supposed religious right party has their head stuck so far up their arse that it isn’t even funny anymore.
If I can say so, you are an amazing individual that has the courage to say what you mean while not losing sight of the humanity of our nation.
Thank you for writing, I mean it.
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By: People Can Be Stupid on November 2, 2008
at 1:17 PM
I just read about the prank call from two Canadian radio hosts pretending to be French to Sarah Palin and the embarassing way she went into it. She didn’t get it despite the fact that they give hints like how they can see Belgium from where they’re at! Sarah Palin’s intelligence is an embarassment to Pittbulls and Pigs, with or without lipstick! If the Canadians can see through her pea sized brain, I wonder what the Russians are thinking.
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By: Cherry on November 2, 2008
at 1:10 PM
I hate to come back and do this—But just to let everyone know–the last part of my previous comment/post was in fact a frail attempt at humor.
I dont want the thought police getting an kooky ideas about what I am about.
–And–
We can only hope Duke.
We can only hope
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By: Seeing Eye Chick on November 2, 2008
at 1:06 PM
I think Lizzy Dole’s time has come and gone. Problem is, no one bothered to tell her.
By the way, Helen, will you adopt me?
Duke
http://thedailyduke.com
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By: Duke on November 2, 2008
at 12:58 PM
I commented on this the other day. I was dismayed to see Elizabeth Dole take this route. I was pretty shocked too. She’s usually been a pretty classy lady, and I’ve not always agreed, but always felt she was a valuable addition to the US Senate.
I’m not quite sure what she’s hoping to accomplish with all of this! And have you even noticed that they’re always using the Old Testament to beat people up? God forbid we go anywhere near the New Testament and start talking about Jesus, eh?
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By: smartandfemale on November 2, 2008
at 12:44 PM
You know its not fair to Witches, Pitbulls or Pigs, to compare them to Sarah Palin–Seriously.
But the other is–Helen and Margaret–You are now my personal living Saints.
It drove me crazy when Bob Dole referred to himself in the third person all the time. So it makes me wonder what nuttiness Elizabeth will be up to. Thanks for clearing that up.
Godless Heathen Hunting.
I float–and I can say the Lord’s Prayer Backwards. But I suck at flying planes.
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By: Seeing Eye Chick on November 2, 2008
at 12:12 PM
Just wanted to say: You’re my new favorite bloggers.
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By: Jason on November 2, 2008
at 12:11 PM
You know all this hoopla about “separation of church and state” and the founding fathers, documents?
I ran the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence thru a word checker with the exact phrase that everyone “claims” is there.
Guess what? It isn’t.
Thomas Jefferson in a letter from Paris mentioned it to the founding fathers, when he said “there should be a provision for separation of church and state in the document” (when they asked of him his advice) but as for it actually being there. Nope. Doesn’t work.
In theory it is a good idea, but the reality of it is that it doesn’t really exist, it is not in there, take a look for yourselves.
DS
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By: Don Smith on November 2, 2008
at 12:09 PM
I wish everybody’s grandma was as cool as you are.
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By: Sarah on November 2, 2008
at 12:07 PM
But just as Colin Powell said on MTP, so what if she is? How on earth can we discount a human being because of their belief in an imaginary friend, or not? What a huge mistake Dole has made, and the McCain camp, too.
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By: RP Gypsy on November 2, 2008
at 12:03 PM
Sashia-
Don’t give into that despair…
It is your hand and mine which marks those ballots to put those folks in Congress. Maybe , we need to rap our knuckles and we do need to pay attention once we hire them… but don’t give up!
Voter fraud is a concern – but more on the level of unfairly DIS-enfranchising voters than allowing fictional or repeat voters on board.
Don’t give up!!!!!!!!!!!
UAW Tradesman-
Maybe it’s a bucket of cold water we need to splash on ourselves, you first. We have made a real hash of things in this country and the dumb name calling and so on might get us through the night but it’s not going to get us through all the days ahead!
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By: Alaska Pi on November 2, 2008
at 11:56 AM
Thank Todd over at VivaLasVegass.blogspot.com for increasing your traffic! Great to read this from someone who has lived through so much.
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By: DogGirl on November 2, 2008
at 11:54 AM
A good thing about this election is that the anti-democratic, hate-filled agenda of the religious right is being exposed. We now have a clearly identified demographic, and we’re unraveling the threads leading to the puppet masters. And we’re beginning to question our own tendencies to identify with “Christian” values without examination.
“Let’s throw her in the pond and see if she floats.” To me, the genocide to which that refers made it the most chilling line of your post. I’ll bet women were climbing over each other to accuse women of being witches during that dark period. (Heck, that dark period is now, what with Sarah P’s pal Rev. Muthee’s driving the ‘witch’ out of the Kenyan village.) That’s the saddest thing to me. That women are attacking women. But then, it’s a time-honored and successful divde-and-conquer tactic.
And one further note on separation of church and state– $20 million poured into the Yes on Prop 8 campaign in California by the MORMON church with the goal of, for the first time in our history, stripping away constitutionally granted civil rights.
Helen and Margaret– my (pointy, black) hat is off to you!
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By: wired differently on November 2, 2008
at 11:50 AM
As several other folks have already stated, NC politics get pretty nasty as a rule. Dole’s TV ads are filled with the same divisive crap that Jesse Helms used in his 1992 campaign against Harvey Gantt, an African American—except Helms used race instead of religion. After Dole’s latest ad dropped, I saw an interview with Mr. Gantt in which he stated he was embarrassed and ashamed for Dole.
Ironically, Dole’s nasty ads are precisely what pushed me over to Hagan’s side. I voted yesterday, and I marked the bubble next to Hagan’s name with relish!
I hope the citizens of NC will send a message to Raleigh and kick Mrs. Dole outta here.
Thank you, Helen, for yet another brilliant and insightful post.
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By: Pam in NC on November 2, 2008
at 11:48 AM
To the quacks that still complain about the “stolen election” even MSM agrees it was Gore trying to steal the vote. To some of the older voters “Do you remember when, if the ballot was folded wrong it was thrown out”. And to Mr. Ahneedahandjob maybe we really do need another Crusade.
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By: UAW Tradesman on November 2, 2008
at 11:39 AM
I could have sworn that we had the freedom to practice or to refrain from practicing any religion we want. The Puritans left for the Colonies for a reason. To attack how Christian someone is, or to go after a person because he or she is atheist is just plain ignorant! It is a damn good thing that I’m not running against her in an election. She would have a field day with me. (Let’s just say I was not one of Jerry Fallwell’s fans.)
As for Mrs. Dole, she’s always seemed just a little too fake for me. She reminds me of an airline stewardess who’s really pissed off, but has to grit the teeth and plant the fake smile on her face for the entire flight.
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By: D on November 2, 2008
at 11:26 AM
Bless your heart Helen…..
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By: willpen on November 2, 2008
at 11:25 AM
It troubles me that an atheist or agnostic has little chance of being elected in this country. Religion should have nothing to do with governing. How sad for Dole to end her career on this note. And why isn’t the spread bigger in the polls? Who are these people who still want to vote for someone who would do something so despicable?
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By: Mari on November 2, 2008
at 11:15 AM
so, helen and margaret . . . harold and matthew too . . . i try to get here everyday when i wake up. some days i don’t get here until it’s technically the next day. but, no matter what, just know every morning of every one of your days, there’s a woman in the hills out in what used to be bee caves, thanks her lucky stars that you came along.
i was rereading vonnegut’s ‘a man without a country’ last night and i found myself saying, ‘god, i bet helen loves this.’
i was at the irish festival here yesterday, and another obama supporter said something to me about palin that i’ve heard said before, in other words, but if you don’t mind i’d like to share it here. i don’t blog or web or whatever it is often other than photos and songs or links to other things but maybe this will help even one person. and you never know what that one vote could mean, right? my apologies for taking up your space and please delete if it’s not appropriate.
-s
2 november
i’ve been steering clear of commentary here lately, thought the pictures and the commentaries by the people themselves or associations with the images could speak for themselves. i had a conversation yesterday, however, with a once-upon-a-time perfect stranger and one of the things she said bears repeating. to put the situation in a bit more context, i was at the irish/celtic festival in austin. she was standing next to me with three children waiting to get a gelato. [unspoken rule of common decency: whenever a person is next to you or behind you in line, waiting to buy gelato, with three small children, always allow them to go first]. she had an obama button on and i told her how much i liked it – it was one i hadn’t seen before. one of her daughters pointed at my shirt and the mom looked over and started laughing and said “that’s perfect.” the front of my shirt had a picture of “the scream” by munch with the words ‘sarah palin’ under it. then she sobered up very quickly and said, ‘you know, the really frightening thing is how so many people across this country really think she’s brilliant – in the ‘intelligence’ sense of the word.’ i told her that frightened me, too. then she said, ‘but think about it, contextually. these are people who voted not once but twice for bush and his machine. forget that he probably wasn’t elected the second time but WE’RE the ones who sat back and didn’t do anything about it. anyway, compared to bush, palin IS brilliant. granted it wouldn’t take much but she is – she represents raising the bar to them.’ and she’s right. that’s how so many of them see it. i can only speak for the 3 people i know of who are voting for mcPain – at least who will admit it. and their explanations as to why they’re voting for that ticket to the totally untied states of america bears her out. nothing in their statements gives a logical, intelligent, forward-looking reason. the only one of these 3 who i can understand – don’t agree with but understand – their reason is my friend who will vote “pro life” no matter what. that is also another matter that i’m never going to change her mind on and she’ll never change mine. [pro-choice DOES NOT EQUAL pro-abortion. how does pro-life condone illegal wars? the death penalty? forcing girls raped by their fathers or strangers – resulting in pregnancy and not just one but often two lives held in the balance = pro life?] i hope those of you in california who may be reading this will do everything in your power to talk to those who are FOR obama but against same sex marriages to explain to them how they cannot vote straight ticket. their #1 concern on tuesday will be voting AGAINST same sex marriage. if it’s too much work to sort out how to do that and not vote for mcPain at the same time, you better believe the vote AGAINST same sex marriage is going to take precedence. if you don’t believe me, take the time sometime to look into just how bush got enough votes 4 years ago to even make it plausible for him to steal the election. yesterday i purchased a new copy of vonnegut’s ‘man without a country’ i learned later that studs terkel died yesterday. sometimes the universe chooses to wink at us. certainly the preferred wink to sarah palin’s. but let’s hope that after tuesday, the palin wink will be reserved for our good friends in alaska. another way the universe winked at me yesterday brought a tear to my eye but i’m going to share it because it is proof positive that even the little things – sometimes especially the little things – can make a big difference. especially when the universe orchestrates them and not us. my mom is in a place in houston with skilled nursing care. she is fortunate in that she is in a really good place. i’ve been sending her cards and, for those who know me, i’ve always believed that taking the time to choose cards with beautiful envelopes [or making the envelope] and using a stamp that is also beautiful or represents something worth noting are also worth it. well, i got a card yesterday from another ms. reed. she lives at a different address but near the place where mom is. her letter told me, in the most once-upon-a-time beautiful script but now clearly painful to execute that she has been receiving the cards i’d been sending mom. instead of returning the cards to me, she took the time to see if mom was in one of two of these facilities near her. she was, of course, and this ms. reed has had them taken to mom and she provided me with the corrected address. then she said she’s sorry it took so long for her to let me know but that, ‘now your mother will get her cards directly, and i will miss your beautiful envelopes.’ it was heart-warming and so sad at the same time. so, when i purchased my new vonnegut book i also purchased a few more cards with beautiful envelopes (and there aren’t enough of them in my opinion) and i hope the other ms. reed will enjoy them from time to time. even when the “big” things seem so overwhelming – at the global, national, local, family, our own soul levels – the little things still count. sometimes more than we can ever know.
a few things from ‘man without a country’ of which i was glad to be reminded. random. ‘there is no reason good can’t triumph over evil, if only angels will get organized along the lines of the mafia.’ [me: or along the lines of the obama campaign. with a little other-worldly assistance from people like vonnegut, jeannie, studs, mrs. jones, tim russert and a few others. of course they’ll have to ply people like my dad with heavenly nectar to minimize the opposition but that’s ok.] ‘but i have to say this in defense of humankind: in no matter what era in history, including the garden of eden, everybody just got here. and, except for the garden of eden, there were already all these games going on that could make you act crazy, even if you weren’t crazy to begin with. some of the crazymaking games going on today are love and hate, liberalism and conservatism, automobiles and credit cards, golf, and girls’ basketball.’ ‘socialism [me: i am NOT implying here as the mcPain party is that ObBi is socialist] ‘socialism’ is no more an evil word than ‘christianity.’ socialism no more prescribed joseph stalin and his secret police and shuttered churches than christianity prescribed the spanish inquisition. christianity and socialism alike, in fact, prescribe a society dedicated to the proposition that all men, women, and children are created equal and shall not starve.’ and, to mirror matthew fox, henri nouwen, anne lamott, alice walker in other words other than the ones they used to say the same thing: ‘i don’t know about you, but i practice a disorganized religion. i belong to an unholy disorder. we call ourselves ‘our lady of perpetual astonishment.’ if you haven’t read ‘a man without a country, get thee to a bookstore or library today. you can read it in one sitting – maybe two depending on your schedule. it is worth every minute and then pass it on. peace -sharron
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By: howlgirl on November 2, 2008
at 11:09 AM
I broke up with TV four years ago, and it’s been a good move for me. By listening to public radio only and avoiding TV, I’ve been free of the stench of political advertising.
I’m a big believer in reading a lot. It’s amazing what you can learn when you are sparing yourself the on-air nastiness that passes for political advertising. A public library is a treasure trove–lots to read and listen to, and all for free.
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By: Lulu Maude on November 2, 2008
at 11:09 AM
Thank you! Thank you for posting, for your website, for sharing your thoughts! I am so glad to have been sent a link to your site! Thank you!
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By: poptart on November 2, 2008
at 11:08 AM
Is it just me, or is anyone else aware of the fact that ultimately it doesn’t matter who you vote for.
1st there is so much voter fraud, that anyone who thinks their vote really counts has to be standing in the crowd admiring the emperor’s clothes.
2nd. It is the dispicable congress and senate that are the makers and passers of ALL laws, the president has no REAL power.
The judicial system is turning a deaf ear to all the violations of the constitution by our elected officials. Several generations of children have now been successfully indoctinated into acceptance of the police state while being ” educated” and are willing sheep about to cast their vote for the cartoon character of their choice.
Very few if any have woken up to whats going on. As a matter of fact, much like the passangers on the Titanic, they not only defend what the captain wants to do (sit down and be calm), but they literally thwart, violently, the attempts of others to save themselves.
Is it revolution time?
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By: Sashia on November 2, 2008
at 11:01 AM
Helen-
Bless you, once again .
Thank you for the reminder that what we have come to call seperation of church and state is about freedom OF and FROM religion . This right we cherish comes with responsibilities too…
I am heartened to see N Carolinians, here , hopping right up to the plate and denouncing Ms Dole’s sicko campaign tactic . Trying to appeal to the lowest value of the religious right has debased and almost destroyed the once proud tradition of the Republican Party.
I would remind all of us Democrats that before those folks put up their current “Jesus Loves Me More Than You” tent in the so-called red zone enormous numbers were under OUR big tent here in the blue zone. Maybe they got tired of us constantly jostling em around , reminding them the tent had to be big enough for all of us, not just them. I don’t know… I know we were kinda relieved not to have to deal with them when they left the neighborhood. We even had a kind of glee about what might befall the Republican Party … I think , now, we should have been more loyal to the loyal opposition and sent warnings by the truckload!
This is all a way of saying this is a a human trait- not a Republican trait, necessarily. We must ALL stay vigilant .
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By: Alaska Pi on November 2, 2008
at 10:51 AM
This last two weeks my mind has been going round and round about religion and our government.
Actually a discussion one of my friends had with a friend of hers that proclaims she is a Christian all the time.
This Christian person at first told my friend she could not vote for a woman or a black person because she was a Christian! Talk about a WTH moment for me. I was appalled when my friend told me about this. Thank goodness for smart friends, we have both been working on this woman and have brought her around and she is voting for Obama.
They recently had a discussion about Roe V Wade and the Christian wanted to know why we were pro choice. Finally after a long back and forth my friend put it to her this way.
Why are you so worried about what will happen to me when I die? When I die “If” God is waiting and there is a judgement isn’t it ultimately between myself and God? The same for you, so if you don’t believe in something because of your religion then by all means live the way you chose and let me live my life the way I chose.
Really it all boils down to this for me. If and when I meet my maker I am the one who has to answer. Period.
I actually feel that people need to look a little closer at the church and the person who preaches to them every week and remind themselves that is a person! Not God, just a person spreading the message that THEY have interpreted to suit their understanding and needs.
Yes if we let the religious right or the self proclaimed “Only true children of God” take over, I agree Helen we will be right back to the days of the witch hunt. I know, why don’t we just get our scarlet letters out now and slap them on.
Thanks for letting me vent!
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By: Proud Community OrganizerWA on November 2, 2008
at 10:48 AM
Remember when Elizabeth Dole was head of the Red Cross? She showed her true “colors” then.
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By: Yea Obama on November 2, 2008
at 10:47 AM
I agree with Butterflyspointofview’s comment – leave religion out of it entirely. In my opinion, there must be many fine people (who would make excellent political leaders, but who surely would never be elected as things stand now) who call themselves atheists. To call someone ‘godless’ as if it’s the worst possible thing is like McCain telling that woman, No, he’s not a Msulim, he’s a decent person. Where has tolerance gone?
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By: Deborah Godin on November 2, 2008
at 10:45 AM
It gave me great pleasure to blacken the spot next to that of her competitor!!
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By: kenju on November 2, 2008
at 10:36 AM
We need all votes to count and have a paper ballot to count if an election is disputed. The technology is here.
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/466.html
No more stolen elections like in 2000.
Vote Obama
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By: JuneauJoe on November 2, 2008
at 10:35 AM
Id say along with you, “separation of church and state is the best damn thing about our country!” if I believed it were still true.
However, it is more and more apparent that the people of this country have made religion such an issue that candidates have little choice but to demonstrate they are God fearing Christians in order to get into office.
Oh for the day to come when the really right answer is “So what if she is, is there something wrong with being an atheist”? And that would be end of the discussion on the matter.
The unfortunate reality is that most people believe our country was founded on Christianity and freedom of religion is reserved for those who come here to escape persecution due to being Christian and to practice their Christianity freely.
A change in this attitude would indeed be refreshing.
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By: Valerie on November 2, 2008
at 10:26 AM
Oh, that reminds me, gstockton. The Founding Fathers didn’t want to put a Bill of Rights in the Constitution, not because they didn’t think the people had those rights but because they just knew some idiot would come along and say that those rights in the Bill of Rights are the ONLY rights the American citizens had.
Enter Some Idiot=Robert Bork.
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By: Christina on November 2, 2008
at 10:26 AM
I share the fears about losing the separation of church and state.I seem to recall that John McCain said that the USA is a christian country. I went to a movie called An American Carol(by mistake) It was eye opening. In one scene they portray how ludicrous it would be for a priest to behave like a terrorist.The audience laughed. I guess I was the only one there who knew about events such as the crusades, and the Spanish Inquisition.The experience in that theater was upsetting &shocking…& I lived in the Bible belt during the Clinton Administration.
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By: Ann on November 2, 2008
at 10:24 AM
So often these days, I feel as if the history books are coming to life on the TV before me. It feels like Joe McCarthy’s spirit is possessing my country.
Here’s the thing about those religious folks who cannot understand how someone else could or would be moral without religion: They are dangerous. The reason they can’t understand how someone else can do it is because they can’t imagine why THEY would be moral and kind without the fear of an omniscient being dooming them to eternal torture if they weren’t. The only thing that protects the rest of us is that thin veneer of fear that holds their natural impulses at bay.
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By: Christina on November 2, 2008
at 10:20 AM
Already voted!!!! (and bothered everyone for the rest of the day about it too!) lol
Thanks for writing!
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By: k on November 2, 2008
at 10:20 AM
This whole episode, while certainly predictable, has made my teeth itch from the start. Beyond the fact that Dole evidently hasn’t the slightest qualm about lying, I’m even more upset that no one with any real voice has stepped forward to emulate Colin Powell.
The correct answer is that Hagan isn’t an atheist; but the really right answer is, “So what if she is? Is there something wrong with being an atheist in this country?”
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By: Postman on November 2, 2008
at 10:02 AM
I enjoy reading your blog very much. I hope when I am your age, I am doing something productive with my time and energy like this.
I wish politics was not as intertwined with religion in the US. I’m originally from England, and over there the politicians and people in general hold religious beliefs to themselves. Here it is used as a qualification and a wedge on issues. Sometimes I feel a bit left out, not being a person of faith, but that feeling I think comes because there are so many politicians using religion, as in the case you mention. What about the rest of us? And so, your point about Mason, Randolph and Gerry holding out for the bill of rights is an excellent one.
Thanks again for writing such an interesting blog.
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By: gstockton on November 2, 2008
at 10:00 AM
I can only hope that the residents of the great state of North Carolina will stand up against Elizabeth Dole’s sad attempts to maintain her seat. I feel so sorry for people who are so very desperate to retain what they perceive to be power that they’ll lower themselves to engage in such pitifully sad strategies. Elizabeth Dole, in this particular situation, is one PATHETIC individual. She would be banished from the Land of Belle and I hope that she will certainly be banished from the United States Senate. Our young people surely do not need her as a role model.
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By: Belle (from Life of a...) on November 2, 2008
at 9:58 AM
For any interested agnostics or atheists out there (as well as religious people who want separation of church and state), you might want to check out the Freedom From Religion Foundation. They’re actively working to assure that the government remain secular.
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By: Marcia on November 2, 2008
at 9:53 AM
As a North Carolina resident, I was horrified by that commercial, and emailed Dole’s campaign thus.
If she ever had a chance of getting my vote, she lost me with that one.
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By: Margie on November 2, 2008
at 9:50 AM
Bravo my dear Helen, separation of church and state is the best damn thing about our country! I absolutely want to projectile vomit when I hear the right wing go on about how they have God on their side. If they would just turn their tiny brained heads and look over to the Middle East, they would see what a theocracy can do to a place. We have come way to close to such a thing already here.
Oh and I would float, because I AM a witch.
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By: elviragultch on November 2, 2008
at 9:48 AM
I read Kelly’s comment, and the problem I have with those poor benighted souls is that they limit acceptable religious practice to believers in the Bible. I mean, yes, if you tell people on the religious right you are an atheist, they automatically assume that you could not possible have any ethics at all, which of course is a false assumption. But they don’t confine their ignorant attitudes to atheists. Other major religions are all wrong, and the people who are almost worse than atheists to them are the pagans and wiccans that exist.
My forefathers (some of them) were on the Mayflower, Huguenots seeking to escape from the persecution in Europe. As soon as they arrived in the New World they set up their own little religious oriented governments and started persecuting and converting people who had a different way of worshipping. It wasn’t long before they held the Salem witch trials.
Frankly, I worry about what would happen if people like Sarah Palin got into power. How long would it be before there were people knocking at my door inviting my friends and me to the Auto de Fe being held in the town square?
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By: healingmagichands on November 2, 2008
at 9:44 AM
Oops! I meant “Theocrats”
Sorry!
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By: DaveM on November 2, 2008
at 9:44 AM
Sarah Palin has been prayed over to remove the so the witches would not prevent her from becoming Gov.
She credits this Rev. for her election.
We have every reason to be afraid of the republican party and their unholy alliance with the religious right.
The Obama smears seem to come from them.
When they talk about his setting up a communist state, I laugh.
The religious right has total control over what their believers do. They have no choice.
But we do. Become informed. Don’t stay silent in the face of intolerance or evil .Support candidates
Run for office.
AND VOTE!!!!!!!!
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By: Diane on November 2, 2008
at 9:44 AM
I live in Charlotte, NC and I almost fell out of my chair the first time I saw Dole’s commercial. I knew instantly she just lost the election. Not only that, she helped turn NC a bit more towards Obama. I have some friends who were “undecided” or “not gonna vote” till that came out. The are all now solidly anti-Dole and will vote just to keep her out, and while there, will more than likely vote for Obama just to make their point a bit stronger.
I think its tie we stopped calling them “Republicans” and started calling them “Technocrats”. They are totally against the Republic our country is and want to force their idea of god on the rest of us through force of law.
Keep it up!
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By: DaveM on November 2, 2008
at 9:42 AM
You rock Margaret.
Unfortunately until “we the people” have the guts to stand up and say “enough” this religion in politics crap will continue with the Palins and Doles of the world continuing to raise their ugly heads bringing the worst kind of religion to the forefront. As a daughter of a minister, niece of a minister and sister of a minister, I am appalled that the Republican party in allowing this kind of trash. The Republicans have to pander to this sick bunch of non-inclusive, racist, anti-semetic, hate and fear mongering type of Christian because they have no honor left. They need this vile dog and pony show because they have the worst ticket ever in the history of politics and the only way to get votes is to satisfy their “base”: the racist misfits and religious freaks.
The Republicans also have this little talant called “cheating”, fixing voting machines like they have in Boulder County in Colorado and in south Florida, unlawfully removing names from the voting rolls like our swine Republican Sec of State, caging votes in Ohio and Nevada……..the list goes on. Unless Barack gets an over-whelming majority of votes, the fact that he is ahead will make no difference. There are too many secrets the Republicans don’t want Americans to know about the 8 years of the Bush administration. Mark my words, if Obama wins Bush and Cheney will be on the airplane headed for Dubai once they are no longer the dictators. They should be spending their remaining years in prison !!!!
Palin and Dole are exactly who the Republicans have become: vile, hateful, ignorant freaks and the worst part is that the major news outlets give them credence for the sake of ratings and their jobs. Can you imagine how different the campaign would have become if the news media (with the exception of that hideous FOX NEWS which we blocked from our TVs ) had refused to run the vile ads, asked a follow up question to the idiot Palin or questioned McCain on his voting record over the past 8 years ??
Ending with this thought……….150,000 wardrobe??
You can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear, Mrs idiot Palin.
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By: Joy on November 2, 2008
at 9:41 AM
I’m sure that Elizabeth Dole’s campaign has taken money from people who are atheists or agnostics, but just don’t talk about it. I’m just as sure that many of them will no longer donate.
Lizzy Dole and John McCain need to retire!
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By: Mike Goad on November 2, 2008
at 9:37 AM
I wouldn’t mind being called Godless, since I am. *grin*
What kills me is the reaction people HAVE to the idea of an atheist. “well, if you don’t believe in the bible, then there’s nothing to stop you from killing people!” and the like. People don’t trust us, for no other reason that we don’t believe in what they do. We’re the minority people are LEAST likely to vote into office. Yet… atheists are under-represented in prison (if we’re so bad, shouldn’t there be a higher percentage of us being punished than are in the general population?). I dunno, it just gets tiresome. I’m tired of “liberal” being used as an insult. I’m tired of “atheist” or “godless” being an insult.
Atheist orgs give money to candidates who have shown they can be fair in regard to religion. We’re not out to take away your Bibles or your guns, or to turn America communist. We believe in being kind to our fellow humans. That’s all. Why are people so scared of us?
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By: Kelly on November 2, 2008
at 9:24 AM
This is one of those stories that seems too appalling to be true.
Good thing Dole doesn’t actually ‘live’ in NC, saves them the trouble of drumming her out of town.
Sheesh!
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By: Have the T-shirt on November 2, 2008
at 9:23 AM
NC politics are nasty – I’m also living here seeing these ridiculous commercials every 5 minutes. But I agree, Margaret, starting down the “Godless” path is a slippery slope right back to Salem. NC can be considered kind of a backwoods redneck state (I can say that, I live here), but surely there is more going on here than “God is my friend, not yours!” – keep it up ladies, I’m enjoying the heck out of your blog!
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By: Kris on November 2, 2008
at 9:17 AM
You make an excellent point. I hadn’t thought of the full ramifications of Dole’s nasty ads until you pointed them out. We must keep religion out of government for once and for all.
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By: Mauigirl on November 2, 2008
at 9:12 AM
what do you think about palin being (so obviously) pranked? She was completely clueless until they TOLD her it was a prank, dispite several very obvious hints that they were pranksters. How damn dumb can this woman be??? And THIS is what John mccain considers vice presidential material???
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By: Anonymous on November 2, 2008
at 9:08 AM
North Carolina politics are notoriously nasty and dirty. While I think Elizabeth Dole went way to far with her ad, the point she was trying to make was who Kay Hagan was accepting money from.
Frankly, both the major party candidates in NC SUCK…I think Chris Cole (Libertarian Candidate) has my vote.
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By: Kristin on November 2, 2008
at 9:04 AM
I couldn’t agree more! I’m a democrat living in Raleigh, NC and I see the Elizabeth Dole approved television ads and recieve flyers in the mail that say “Godless Amercians PAC wants to remove ‘under God’ from the pledge of allegiance and now they want Kay Hagan in the U.S. Senate…” it also goes on to say ‘We can’t trust Kay Hagan to defend our North Carolina values.’ …. really?!?! whatever happened to separation of church and state?
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By: randi on November 2, 2008
at 9:00 AM
It makes me sad and angry to see the depths people will go to to hang onto their power and win an election. God has often been used to win elections and every time it ends in disaster. It seems like all a dirty politician has to do is invoke the name of God and smear their opponenet at the same time and guess what? The religious zealots vote for them in droves. In the bible aren’t people like these politicians called Pharisees? “Remember the Pharisees, the self-proclaimed pious ones of biblical times who were famous for opposing the love-and-peace ministry of Jesus Christ?” I googled the word Pharisees and I came up with this wonderful article on a site called Political Truths at http://www.politicaltruths.info. It completely describes the republican party and it’s quest for power at any cost. The christian right have kidnapped our country and sold out to a bunch of politicians who use God as their facade and the zealots fall for it hook line and sinker every time, at a cost to the rest of us thinking people. I believe in God, but I don’t see him the way they do. To me religion should be something you carry quietly inside of you and you should reveal God by being a good person as best you can. Whenever I meet someone who wants to be legitimized in my eyes (usually they are trying to sell me something and gain my trust so they can soften me up for the sell!) they say they are a “christian”. When they say that, I am immediately suspicious of their motives. It is easy to talk the talk, but we all need to watch how these people walk the walk. Sarah Palin says she is a christian, but when I watch her I see a woman whom Jesus wuold be ashamed of. She is a hatemonger and the way she denigrates Senator Obama is disgraceful. Yet he turns the other cheek. When people started to attack her unwwed, underaged pregnant daughter, he said, “don’t go there, family should not be involved in this” ( I paraphrase) He doesn’t attack or incite hate towards Palin, even as she incites crowds to hate him with her slurs of “socialist” and “anti-american” and the list goes on. It’s scary and I pray that that woman does not get her hands on the White House. I think she is more dangerous than John McCain. I think God represents peace, but she thinks God is all about war. She even slipped up yesterday and said “our wars with Iraq and Iran”. I think she revealed what she really wants. She wants an all-out holy war and the end times. If she gets in, I am very afraid she will get her ungodly wish.
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By: Cat on November 2, 2008
at 8:59 AM
I am American and I live in England. It has become crystal clear to me that the US does not seperate church and state. You can not run for office, and get elected, unless you put your beliefs out there. You know the religion of ever candidate.
The UK is very different. You never hear the religious beliefs of the people running for office(with the exception of Muslim. ) It was an eye opener.
I so wish that the US would leave religion out of politics. I wonder how different things would look if people kept their beliefs to themselves and let others belive what they want. I honestly thought that we where built on that, but it seems that we are headed to the dark ages in that respect. Its a dark road when you have to be a specific religion to get ahead. Remind you of any other place on the planet?
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By: butterflyspointofview on November 2, 2008
at 8:57 AM
Elizabeth Dole actually put ou a second ad say Kay Haggan’s faith wasn’t in question, then went on to ask if you would take money from Godless Americans. You are absolutely correct in pointing out the original reason people came to this country, freedom from religious persecution. It is a pity Elizabeth Dole is sinking so low as to attack her opponent in this way. Everyone deserves representation in this country. You don’t have to agree with them, you just have to respect them.
I sent Dole an email saying exactly that, and that she didn’t deserve her current position. I hope Kay Haggan rolls right on over her in a win.
Keep up the good work.
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By: Marie in NH on November 2, 2008
at 8:53 AM
Hi Helen,
I’m in NC and I’m happy to say that it appears Dole’s last-gasp, last-grasp attempt to win the election may be what loses it for her. Folks here are appalled.
Kay Hagan responded with an ad reminding Dole not to bear false witness. As a liberal Presbyterian deacon, I’m so sick of these “selective” Christians who pick and chose which parts of scripture suit their purposes, to the exclusion of others. Jesus preached a message of inclusion. I don’t know how so many folks have managed to overlook that part.
Two more days…
Keep fighting the good fight.
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By: Atleebrak on November 2, 2008
at 8:48 AM
Dear Helen, keep on telling the truth. You are wonderful. To all those Obama supporters out there, get off your behinds and go help your local Obama campaign office to get out the vote this weekend. Like many of you, I hate talking to people I don’t know. If I can do it, SO CAN YOU. It’s only for a couple of days, and it’s extremely important. Our lives and the future of this country depend on it. Call your local Obama campaign office NOW and ask how you can help.
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By: Gloria on November 2, 2008
at 8:47 AM
Thank you for your words. Tolerance and acceptance can not be forced,we can only be the best example we are capable of being. Intolerance of differences however, should not be swept under the carpet- it has no place in our government.
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By: David on November 2, 2008
at 8:46 AM
, or you are, if you , you need to start writing as if these have the past 60 years of American political life. Forget about things like, “I such-and-such”, or “When was elected…”
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By: helpful hints on November 2, 2008
at 8:45 AM
Helen, My father sent me a copy of you post so I found your blog I could not agree with you more and it sickens me to see how ignorant people can be.
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By: Donna on November 2, 2008
at 8:33 AM