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Posted by: Helen Philpot | September 7, 2012

It’s a shame the Republicans didn’t have any living Presidents to showcase at their convention.


Margaret, can you believe it?  A reporter called me to ask what I thought of the conventions.  Why would anybody care about that?  I keep telling Matthew that I can’t figure out why the hell anyone wants to read my garbage.  I’m just a cranky old lady who wants her driver’s license back.  It doesn’t matter what I think.

But as long as you are asking…

I think the Republicans had it hard.  After four years of obstructing government, they had to do something really difficult.  They had to put together a convention in Tampa while God flooded Louisianna.  They had to  convince a bunch of white, christians that camels are skinnier and needles have bigger eyes these days. And then they had to breathe life into a $3,000 business suit.

Listen, if you’re going to hold a convention and interrupt three days of my programs, then you better at least tell me something I didn’t already know.  And you better damn well not take me for a fool.  And speaking of fools, Ann Romney broke my heart.   I am still horrified at the struggles she and Mitt had to go through before they got out of wealthy to become fantastically wealthy.  It was just so emotional to watch her standing there in a pair of $1,300 shoes describing the horrors of their early years eating penne pasta and ahi tuna fish on an ironing board because Mitt  asked his Dad for money to start a new business instead of for the new furniture she wanted.   Well, my heart just broke for her.  It did.  And then to discover that the Romney’s had five boys who, even though they each had their own room and a pony, preferred to play war in the living room. Oh the humanity of it all. Her entire married life dealing with rich Republicans playing war.  Can you imagine?  We feel your pain, Ann.  And those other people –  The Obamas.  Why they were young black folks living it up in America. We all know their kind has it so easy.

And speaking of easy, the guy who had it easiest was that Paul Ryan character.  He had to give a speech in just under three hours knowing that he could say whatever the hell he wanted regardless of whether it’s true or not.    Fact: Under the Ryan Budget, most elderly people would pay more for their health care than they would pay under the current Medicare system.  But let’s not tell them that because they’re old and stupid and we haven’t figured out a way to supress their vote.  Fact:  You did request stimulus funds.  I mean money is money right? What self-respecting Republican says no to money?  Even when a black man is doling it out.   Fact:  I could whoop your ass in a marathon.  Just under three hours?  Were you wearing ankle weights?  (OK – I got a little carried away on that last one.)

Seriously, the one who had it the hardest was, of course, Mitt.  He had to look alive and almost human.  He had to explain how he is Pro-Life whenever he isn’t running for an office that needs him to be Pro-Choice.  He had to explain how he turned things around in Massachusetts by inventing Obamacare before Obama so that five years later he could explain how Obamacare is the root of all evil.   And he had to make a case that Democrats are bad for business despite the fact that he amassed a fortune at Bain while Bill Clinton was President.

And speaking of Clinton, the Democrats had it easy.  They have not one, but TWO former Presidents to call on.  Imagine that, two former Democratic Presidents still living.   Alive after all these years.   All the Republicans have in their deck is a pair of jackasses, Dick Cheney and an empty chair.

No.  The Republicans overcame horrific odds.  First, they had to get all those white guys together under one roof in Tampa without an actual Nascar Race taking place.   And then they had to deal with Mother Nature, I mean God, smiting people with a hurricane.  It was so much easier for Democrats to get a diverse audience from all walks of life to come to Charlotte.  After all the entire state of North Carolina is hermetically sealed and environmentally controlled.  Even that weird little guy on Fox News said that Obama knew months ago what the weather would be like on the night he gave his speech.  When I want an unbiased, fair and balanced weather forecast for the next few months, I tune into Fox News for weather on the hour, every hour or in this case on the month, every month.

By all accounts, the Democrats had it easy.  After Tampa, they knew all the secrets.  They knew for instance that fact checkers are going to actually check the facts.  They also knew that remembering and mentioning our soldiers still fighting a war is a good way to show respect.  They even knew that if the candidate’s wife was going to make the case that you understand the hardships of everyday Americans; you might want to make the case wearing shoes that cost less than most people’s mortgage payment.

Maybe it’s just me Margaret, but the Republicans have a real problem.  Eventually a nun is going to show up and remind them that Jesus actually likes poor people.  And I’ll be damned if the Democrats didn’t know that as well.   I mean, if I was Paul Ryan, I’d be saying a few extra prayers before I tuck my calculator in at night.   Because when a nun on a bus calls you out on your Pro-Life bullshit, that’s big.

The Republicans wasted three days of my life last week and they wasted the last four years trying to negate our votes in 2008 by doing everything they could to try and make Obama fail.   He didn’t and I am voting for hope and change again.  In 2008 more than 69 million Americans voted for Obama which means he received the most votes for a presidential candidate in American history.  And some of them were old, white people like me.  Maybe this time, the Republicans in Congress will know we mean it.  Really.


Oh dear. Did Reagan die?

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  1. May I inquire if you could be cool with paid off blogs?

    All I would want is for you to develop content and articles for me and a website link or
    reference to my website. I’ll pay you.

  2. Hmm it seems like your blog ate my first comment (it was extremely long) so I guess I’ll just
    sum it up what I wrote and say, I’m thoroughly enjoying your blog.

    I as well am an aspiring blog writer but I’m still new to everything.
    Do you have any recommendations for inexperienced blog writers?
    I’d definitely appreciate it.

  3. And the Creator speaks directly through the mouth of Yvonne…?

    MY Creator thinks not.


  4. How sad it is for people who refuse to acknowledge the truth! Wake up, ladies, and seek a renewed focus on the Great truths of God’s Word.Then, perhaps you will realize that our country is on the path of destruction. Do you, honestly. believe this administration is in keeping with the Will of God?
    Do you believe the biased media is reporting truth? Lies cannot live.
    God Bless Both of You, ladies. You have a wonderful opportunity to reach the hearts of people who are uninformed. Think about it. Intimidation is not the answer. Time will tell.

  5. Bravo Ladies

  6. If anyone is interested there is a FREE ONLINE BOOK written by Dr. Robert Altemeyer who has been studying the rightwing sucessful use of propaganda since 1966. John Dean, the author of “Conservatives Without Conscience” used Mr. Altemeyer 40+ years of information when writing his book. The Dr. Is sounding the alarm bells of what the rightwing and evangelicals will do to this country if they have the chance. It is a wonderful read, it is frightening and it is happening now. He explains in easy to understand language the hyprocrocy that flows so easily from the rightwing patriots. You will understand how and why they think the way the do. To any and all who would like to dig deeper into the nazi-like propaganda the right is employing so sucessfully please check it out.

  7. i dont know what all the fussing is here in the comments

    i just stopped in here cause i just read 2 of Helen Philpot’s post. and i just gotta say

    i feel so happy i just wanna give Helen a big ole happy kiss on the cheek

    thank you Helen
    you are delightful!

  8. Anonymous, As usual you try to confuse the issue. My “view” has nothing to do with this; and I never stated a opinion on the subject. Your ignorance of the issue of the Iraq weapons inspection process was revealed by YOU; you didn’t need any help from me or anyone else. Your pompous attempt to look like an expert backfired because you obviously had no idea what you were talking about.

  9. Hi Congenial Gang,

    It is refreshing to see some new “faces” as well as old ones here with well conceived comments. Oops! Not “old faces”, just familiar, previous ones. (Whew! I weaseled outta that one didn’t I?) You know who you are so I won’t “name names”. Although I have always felt as if I were eavesdropping on private conversations when I read blog comments addressed solely from one person to another. I go ahead and read some of them anyway though.

    I would like to refer you to an excellent book I have been plowing my way through recently, all 696 pages not counting the notes, references and index. It is anything but light reading but well worth the time spent actually studying it.

    It is “The Better Angels of our Nature – Why Violence has Declined” by Steven Pinker.

    From the book’s jacket:

    “Steven Pinker is the Harvard College Professor of Psychology at Harvard University. A two-time Pulitzer Prize finalist and the winner of many awards for his research, teaching and books, he has been named one of Time’s 100 Most Influential People in the World Today and Foreign Policy’s 100 Global Thinkers.”

    I think this is a timely quote from page 520 about the drive for dominance:

    “…………[such] people are narcissistic: they think well of themselves not in proportion to their accomplishments but out of a congenital sense of entitlement. When reality intrudes, as it inevitably will, they treat the bad news as a personal affront, and its bearer, who is endangering their fragile reputation, as a malicious slanderer.”

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam. Peace.

    Auntie Jean

  10. Terri in NY Yes Terri, you must be right. Your view is the ONLY possible point of view. My paper HAD to be about him and I HAD to be lying because I did not know his name. Thanks for clearing that up. Nice thing though it shows just how open minded the lot of you are not.

  11. Are you a victim? Do you take personal responsibility? Do you pay tax?

    Well, you no good Obama voters get up off your lazy butts and do something for yourselves!!!

    It seems that Romney feels those who vote for Obama are….”As Romney explains, 47 percent of Americans “believe that they are victims.” He laments: “I’ll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives.””

    “My job is not to worry about those people,” he says.


    It seems there is more to come. Should be interesting!


  12. PBCliberal, I like the way you think.

  13. PBCLiberal–I think you have hit the nail on the head. He’s a wannabe; and he made a huge error in judgment by assuming that since he didn’t know Blix’s name, the rest of us wouldn’t. By the way, I really enjoy your posts.

  14. Gato: I think it is very much like the singer who can’t sing.

    Second only to the talented few whose looks are in total contrast to their talent (Jackie Evancho/Susan Boyle/and the litany of men who sing coloratura soprano parts), the wannabe singer who can’t sing is the staple of the the reality talent competition shows.

    The producers delight in showing a package of them puffing themselves all up, culminated by their walking onstage, opening their mouth, and revealing they have no talent whatsoever. Their desire to “be” a singer so totally trumps their desire to either work at it or honestly asses their own ability that they wind up embarrassing themselves.

    I think there’s a class of people who believe that the appearance of political knowledge is an attractive attribute, but who themselves have no passion for the underlying subject itself, that they also repeatedly put themselves in positions where they should know they will wind up embarassed. That explains why a piece of red meat like Hans Blix weighing in on the actions of Blair/Bush/Howard wasn’t of immediate and compelling interest.

  15. I am constantly amazed by the amount of discussion/interaction this blog stimulates. It is good for me to see how liberals are thinking and what they are thinking. Or, should I say reminded of…. since I used to be one. I am not either one or the other these days. I am leaning more and more toward believing Jesus meant what he said (Love your enemies. Do good to those who persecute you. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, etc.). He called out the hypocrites (the “religious” folks), and he did not engage the government of the day.

  16. Hi, again, Terri – I’m just always wondering why people do that sort of thing? I’m naive enough, or “something” enough, to think that there’s something they are really concerned about, and it usually isn’t quite what they’re writing about… This most likely can frequently include myself.

    I don’t think anyone spends that much time and effort going on about some issue or other, unless they have some real and strongly-felt distress about SOMETHING. I know that I, myself, have often gotten really pissed about something, only to realize, later, that the thing I thought I was angry about wasn’t really “it”, at all. And, usually, if and when I find out what the real thing is, it turns out that THAT is, in fact, important… Even though the “excuse” for getting angry was ridiculous.

    It’s my opinion that many, many people are feeling really helpless and powerless these days, something that none of us like to feel. And, since we know, in our heart of hearts, that the “something wrong” is incredibly large and systemic, and therefore incredibly difficult to deal with, we turn to some smaller piece of irrelevance as the target for our fury – anything from which inspectors did what, when, and where; to demanding to see tax returns; to the irritating Romney smirk; to the endless “question” of the legitimacy of Obama’s birth certificate…

    Often, these things are the only things with which we feel we can grapple. And the disenfranchisement, in every sense, goes on… Heedless of our distress…


  17. I think I should have said “everybody who was paying the slightest bit of attention”. It’s really annoying to deal with people like Anonymous. His effort to just B.S. his way out of his ignorant post was a little too much for me to bear. It would be impossible for someone to study the issue of the UN weapons inspections and not know the name of Hans Blix. What a total phony.

  18. Hi, Terri – I haven’t been following “Non”‘s posts with much attention, but I couldn’t help noticing this morning’s flap over weapons inspections, and who did what, when. Not sure “everybody” knows who Hans Blix is, but – as you say – I would certainly think that anyone who had seriously examined what happened, or did not happen, with weapons inspections in Iraq, would at least find the name familiar!

    The kind of sad thing, in my opinion, is that, when given a name with which he/she was unfamiliar, “Non” did not even bother to look it up on the internet before replying… That would have been a lot easier than writing a long and somewhat convoluted post about referencing a “source”, or the “source of a quote”, and all that other stuff – which had basically nothing to do with the subject at hand. (And, of course, Hans Blix was far from being “just some person” in that whole operation. That’s kind of like saying, “The names Dick Cheney and George W. Bush aren’t really familiar to me, and how can you expect anyone to remember everyone involved?”)

    As always, obsession is a primary cause of blindness… And deafness. And can easily make someone look ridiculous and not worth engaging, exactly as you have pointed out.


  19. Anonymous, you are a joke. Everyone knows who Hans Blix is. Don’t try to pretend he was some peripheral official whose name you can’t quite be bothered to recall. He was central to the UN inspection and he was covered in the media extensively. You have exposed yourself for the fraud you are. Truly pathetic.

  20. If by “my source” you mean the author of the piece I linked, then you’ve just impeached yourself.

    By source I mean the reporting organization. If we are to take the easy way out and go with the author, I did no such thing. Do you memorize the names of every person involved with every aspect of a war effort? Do you even memorize the names of the people involved in our own campaign let alone a foreign organization? The year, in case you were not aware, is 2012. While I did study the events closely, I did not set to memory the names of every person on this planet that was involved, and even if I had I doubt I would remember the name after these many years. The purpose of my paper was not to understand every player, certainly not a man who was little more than an errand boy, not even a decision maker. He was given instructions, he followed those instructions.

    You chose the easy path, that is your prerogative. I can certainly understand why, any port in the storm eh?

    If you don’t know who Hans Blix is, then you don’t know very much about the UN inspections themselves,

    Lets take a look at this nice piece of flawed logic. To not know a name of a person, is to not know a subject. Sound piece of reasoning. I can see why you chose to be a Leftist.

    Now, is this, or is this not, the place for this conversation? Rumor has it that it is not.

    alaskapi~ We have a different recollection of events, and we can leave it at that. :mrgreen:

  21. Anonymous:

    My approval is not the question here. It is whether you spend your time rhapsodizing that you know a lot, or spend your time telling us what you know. There’s not much in your posts beyond self-aggrandizement, and the vague claims that “the left” has distorted the record.

    You did, however, make one specific claim:

    “Your source is one I have never heard of so I have no idea as to its credibility, so I have little to say on that.”

    If by “my source” you mean the author of the piece I linked, then you’ve just impeached yourself. Hans Blix was the chief weapons inspector for the UN at the time the decision was made to recall him and invade Iraq.

    There is no way you could study hundreds or even dozens of hours of recorded news footage from the period and never hear his name. He was central to the question, and his name was in nearly every report dealing with UN inspections during that time.

    If you don’t know who Hans Blix is, then you don’t know very much about the UN inspections themselves, and I’d suggest you take your own advice and “have little to say” on the whole issue.

  22. You are right it is not proof. The information is out there if you are of the mind to look for it. I spent dozens of hours poring over this material, watching the reports, I know what was reported as it happened, I also and well aware of what has been distorted by the Left since then. I am not looking for your approval with my facts or my methodology.

    Your source is one I have never heard of so I have no idea as to its credibility, so I have little to say on that.

    Calling a spade a spade. They hags had 2 years to carry on attacking anyone and everyone on a personal level, destroying this blog in the process, I won’t shed a tear or apologize for their efforts.

    For the record, I am not a huge fan of either Bush, Sr or Jr. I just know what you are claiming is factually inaccurate. But as you said this is not the place so the final word, should you chose to have it, is yours.

  23. Anonymous:

    Telling us that you did a paper is not proof. Telling me that I am wrong is not proof. Claiming that things have been removed from YouTube is not proof. Claiming you have hundreds of hours of recordings of newscasts is not proof. Calling somebody a hag as a defense to a charge that you’re personally attacking people is doubling down.

    If your research was so thorough, perhaps you can explain Hans Blix reviews of Bush, Blair and Howard Lazarus’ histories of the conflict in which he comes to the conclusion that Hussein was cooperative at the time the inspectors were recalled, and that Bush and Blair didn’t care what they found.


  24. Noah- you are silly. I have never attacked you personally and I have no “hags” – some folks I chat with here – most of whom don’t agree with me anymore than they agree with you :-)
    You hear the crickets when I spout about Centrists and New Democrats? I do. They don’t agree but maybe because I don’t tend to call people names nor attack them, they just ignore me rather than lash out (back)

    I stood up for you when you were treated unfairly and I didn’t stand up for you when you dug your own hole here over and over.
    I have resisted calling you names while I have called you out on logical fallacies.
    The list is long and here we go again with all the foo-foo, eh?
    hippie commie liberal weirdo Pi

  25. I did a paper on the Iraq war and followed all the news programs for my work. I have just over a hundred hours of news footage from ABC, CNN and CBS. They kicked out the inspectors, took them back, gave them limited access, they left due to lack of cooperation as the restrictions imposed did not allow them to do their job. They came back in, were given access to only a few sights and were refused access to others.

    Sorry you are just flat wrong on this. The left has gone a long way to bury the information and much of it has been removed from Youtube. Try digging more than 2 pages back and learn the truth for yourself.

    As for alaskapi, her and her hags have gone far far out of their ways for years making personal attacks and assertions about myself and my family. There are hundreds of not thousands of posts of nothing but direct personal attacks so you will have to excuse me if I have no sympathy for her or her kind.

  26. If you haven’t been to Stonekettle.com this week you need to check it out. Jim is on a roll this week with three new posts. We could use a bit of humor!


  27. Obama is considered a foreign policy failure because mobs and extremists dislike him, and the USA. Really? REALLY?

  28. Anonymous:

    I was suggesting that nothing on your laundry list was “starting a war.”

    One of your assertions, however, is in fact false. We removed the weapons inspectors from Iraq when it appeared that Saddam was cooperating and was destroying the few weapons he had.

    The other two, defying a U.N. resolution and firing at planes may in your mind be a *justification* for starting a war, but aren’t actually starting one either.

    We’ve really come full circle here. By bringing these points up you’re demonstrating what Helen was saying in her post. The GOP didn’t have their living presidents at their convention because if you are reminded of their presidencies, you remember what bad presidents they were. At ours, the last president to leave a budget surplus brought down the house.

    If any thread is the wrong thread to re-argue the Gulf and Iraq wars, it is this one.

    At least you’re consistent. If any comment is the wrong comment to personally attack someone, its the one right after alaskapi says of your argumentation style: “when all else fails good ole predictable ad hominem routine.”

    But that is precisely what you did.

  29. “We will never have the media on our side, ever, in this country,” Santorum said, according to BuzzFeed and a video posted by Right Wing Watch, available above. “We will never have the elite, smart people on our side, because they believe they should have the power to tell you what to do.”


    Rick, I really, really need to think about this statement. Would I rather have a smart person telling me what to do or some dumb person telling me what to do? Someone who knows what he is talking about or some one who has no idea what he is talking about. That is one hard decision to make there also to maybe!


  30. Please consider signing this petition: http://www.change.org/petitions/chancellor-bob-jones-university-apologize-for-stating-that-homosexuals-should-be-stoned-to-death

  31. alaskapi I am sorry you are lacking in knowledge of our history, don’t force that ignorance on others.

  32. A great new quote from Rick Santorum: “we’ll never have the smart elite people on our side.”. How true, how true.

  33. I think it’s pointless to try to re-litigate the Iraq War here. I think it’s pretty obvious that it was a huge mistake that had drastic consequences for our economy and national reputation. What’s important now, to me at least, is the fact the Bush administration created a huge mess both domestically and internationally, and for the past four years the GOP has refused to do anything to clean up the mess they created. They need to be voted out of office.

  34. … and reading further… false equivalents, hasty generalizations, and when all else fails good ole predictable ad hominem routines :-)

  35. PBC-
    this one is known for setting up a false dilemma


    continue if you like but it’s kinda like spinning your wheels there…

    UAW- far northern CA- the redwoods and coast, the Trinity Alps inland , and the Modoc country even further East are all well worth the visit. Stunning, stunning country and while a bit heavy on redneck stuff, good and decent people. :-)
    Of course Alaska is worth a visit too! Most of the state is not visitable by road though.

  36. And let us not forget the billions of dollars spent by Clinton in Serbia and the 4 conflicts Obama engaged in.

  37. “And as to your claims that defying a U.N. resolution, kicking out a weapons inspector and shooting at a plane overflying your airspace is somehow starting a war, you’re kidding, right?”

    No I am not. Are you claiming these things did not happen?

  38. Anonymous:

    With respect to “Operation Desert Storm” if you’re trying to argue that Bush41 didn’t start the war, but merely insinuated us along with coalition forces in an ongoing war, I see your point.

    But Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait met with little or no resistance, the royal family fled, and before our initial bombing raids which made history for CNN, we were pursuing economic sanctions against Iraq to try and force them to leave Kuwait.

    So I’d argue there never was much of a war there, until we showed up with our aerial attack and then our ground forces.

    And as to your claims that defying a U.N. resolution, kicking out a weapons inspector and shooting at a plane overflying your airspace is somehow starting a war, you’re kidding, right?

  39. * kick out
    ** shoot at

  40. Our last two Republican presidents have each started wars in the mideast.

    Could you tell me how we made Iraq invade Kuwait?

    Could you tell me how we made Iraq defy U.N. Resolutions 3 times?

    Could you tell me how we made Iraq kick weapon inspectors?

    Could you tell me how we made Iraq shot at our military patrol jets for months in southern Iraq?

  41. yes Cynthia….it’s nice to be curious…….and to travel……..unfortunately responsibilities stopped me from traveling…..but then…..I’ve never been to California…and don’t really care if I make it or not…..now Alaska…that would be fun…..my cousin and wife took their motorcycle to Denali National Forest….great pics…..I went to Hell and back 2 weeks ago….


  42. uaw – you don’t have to be a 1% to travel, just be curious enough to wonder how the rest of the world lives. It can be quite an eye opener. My first trip was done on the cheap; backpacked through Ireland, England and Germany. Paid for it sitting by on my butt and saving up those big welfare checks every month. Do you really think that only Republicans work hard? I certainly respect you for taking care of your family. I did as well.


  43. I’d love to enlighten you, UAW. But could you be a bit more specific about which policies you mean? But to paint things with a broad brush (which seems to be one of your specialties) I’m generally dissatisfied when the president continues Bush’s policies.

    Sometimes the reasons he’s doing so are complex, such as the failure to close Gitmo. The Senate was nearly unanimous in denying him the funds to do so, which also serves to disprove the argument that because his party had control of congress for his first two years (actually about four months, but that’s another story), he should have been able to do anything he wanted.

    And sometimes the reasons are that he’s a moderate Democrat and liberals like me think he should scale back some things like the Patriot act and the continued diminution of our rights. Considering these are the same things that Republicans have used to fear-monger, I hardly think my dissatisfaction with the president will result in embracing a party even more skilled at fear-mongering than he is.

  44. yes Gato…

    “If we have any heroes, they are our ambassadors and our troops.”

    and why were they denied the ability to defend themselves???????

  45. Guy I bowl against was sent to China…….”Never again….Beer sucks”

  46. No Cynthia…I have not been out of the USA other than Canada or Mexico…..I spent my life working and supporting and educating my family…….I’m not one of the 1%ers…..are you???????…..(could have gone to Italy to look at a machine but turned it down)

  47. Hi, PC, and others who have replied to UAW’s adolescent response – I saw some photos of Libyans holding up signs, in English and Arabic, saying how much they respected Christopher Stevens, how much they liked him, how grateful they were that he was there, and how they thought of him as a friend. What courage that must take, on their parts. And what courage Stevens had, and his staff, to go there, be among them, and attempt to show them our best selves.

    Imagine sitting down to write a message in a language you don’t even know, and then going out to hold it up, and show it to the world…

    Those Libyans, and plenty of them are women, have my highest respect. As does Ambassador Stevens, and all those who go courageously and, yes, lovingly, into the bowels of other countries, to show them who we are at our best. If our country is about anything, it is about this. If we have any message, it is this. If we have any heroes, they are our ambassadors and our troops.


  48. so what is it PC…..
    It’s great that Obama is following along with Bush’s policies or It’s terrible that Obama is following along with Bush’s policies……enlighten me…..

  49. Have you ever been to Afghanistan and had people stop you on the street and tell you how glad they are that the Americans are there?

    I have.

  50. Yes, that is the phrase, which is what we’ve been doing for the last three years. The country where we suffered the loss of life was Libya, where we certainly have our enemies, but we have many friends as well. Our friends there recognize that we helped them greatly to overthrow their dictators.

    Over the last 8 years, we’ve done anything but walk softly in the mideast, and the results of those policies are an awful lot of anger toward us. Our last two Republican presidents have each started wars in the mideast.

    And as far as the bit stick goes, let me remind you of the current status of Osama Bin Laden and how he transitioned.

  51. uaw – have you ever been out of the United States – not Canada or Mexico? Have you ever really talked with someone from another country visiting here?


  52. PCLiberal….
    I believe the phrase is “Walk softly and carry a big stick” not “Walk softly and carry a limp dick.”

  53. UAW;

    The unrest will no doubt hurt Obama with voters who believe we should use our might to impose dictators on mideast countries who do our bidding in spite of the will of the people, those who believe these countries should have free and fair elections only if they elect candidates friendly to us, or who launching wars based on lies is good foreign policy.

    Folks who believe this are pretty solid GOP voters anyway,

  54. “One of the proudest things of my three years in office is helping to restore a sense of respect for America around the world,”
    “But this week, protesters in Afghanistan burned Obama in effigy and cable news shows ran footage of many burning U.S. flags in various countries.”


  55. There were two jobs bills, one was Republican. It was not as comprehensive. It was actually written with certain Republican owned corporations in mind, just like some of our tax laws actually have the names of the companies on them that they were devised to protect. If the Republican bill had passed, those corporations would have been given a multi-tiered birthday cake of goodies.

  56. Hi, Bo – “Intemperate, inaccurate, and classless”… That says it all. All the other crap means nothing. Bottom line: Someone has character, or he doesn’t. And we know who has it, and who doesn’t.

    My husband is always upset with what he calls my “ad hominem” remarks… But sometimes the “hominem” needs to be called out for what he is. Thanks to you for doing that. I’m getting tired of being polite.

    Whoever you are… You rock!


  57. ……especially links and artcles from right wings rags.

  58. UAW. No need to post any links or videos for me, I don’t look at them. Make your case yourself in your own words.

  59. After this disastrous week in The MittWit’s campaign, the one thing I am convinced of is that “the republican party of today is not good for the country”. Poor Willard is all tangled up in his magic underwear from yet another self-inflicted blunder over his intemperate, inaccurate and classless remarks following the Libyan Consulate incident.
    For someone who would have us all believe that he is electable and “good for the country” because he is supposedly a successful manager of businesses, etc., he has done little other than fail Management 101 since his nomination. He can’t manage a message. He couldn’t manage a convention. And he hasn’t managed a bounce. He’s running out of swing states, time and credibility. Not a very good track record.

  60. and Mageen….you had a problem with”what’s good for GM is good for the country”….
    well I have a problem with “what is good for the Dem party is good for the country”….

  61. Yes Terri…..the “American Jobs Act”

    “It was a scam – a diversion meant to flesh out the narrative that Republicans blocked the country’s progress, and to portray the president as fighting hard for our workers. A myth now debunked by Bob Woodward’s new book, The Price of Politics, that was born out of the failed debt ceiling negotiations . A myth – Blame the Republicans! — that is central to President Obama’s campaign.”

    Read more at http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2012/09/11/Obamas-Jobs-Act-Not-Just-a-Failure-but-a-Fraud.aspx#lxMrtdhVFFQMKR8Q.99

  62. Coming originally from the state of Missouri and being a red white and blue Mule/Ass this advid reader says your editorial was right on mark! Living now in OHIO a pivotal state for Obama I say STAY OUTA OHIO ROMNEY. If you can’t show me your IRS forms, you CAN’t tell a truth without a twist on the REPWAY AND your company lives in Bain—–not to mention probably being the instigator to the news in Missouri that Bomb threat was made by a terriorist who was in the witness protection program due to fact he exposed TWO other terrorists within our borders!!!!

  63. Hi, Terri and Gato – Finally, someone other than myself who is aware that the jobs council, the economic advisory board and the languishing jobs bill are jigsawed together! Since the Republicans are determined not to move any bill that would even possibly throw some good vibes Obama’s way, things will continue as is.

  64. I wonder how many jobs were created by the 55 House anti-women votes since 2011?


  65. Hi, Terri – Point well stated. And if anyone doesn’t know the difference between the public and private sectors, it’s the Romney – who just keeps telling us (endlessly, tiresomely, boringly…) that he plans to just step right into the Oval Office, become the CEO of the US of A, and tell everyone in the world what to do… And expect everyone to follow suit, because he’s the Boss. He doesn’t seem to be aware that he wouldn’t be able to just “fire” any head of state, anywhere, who doesn’t do what he says.

    THAT’s one key difference between the public and private sectors.


  66. Obama’s not doing his job? Don’t you remember the “American Jobs Act” which would have created more than a million jobs? It’s been languishing over in Congress since last September where the Republicans refuse to vote on it. They are too busy voting 37 times to repeal “Obamacare.” Jeez…..

  67. Jeez Mageen…
    and I’m wondering if Obama has “caught on to all the differences between (the) public and private sector.”

    Remember General Electric CEO Jeffrey Immelt and Obama restructuring his economic advisory board to place an emphasis on job creation…..
    and not having a meeting since Jan 17th………
    IMHO jobs are good for the USA and someone isn’t doing their’s……

  68. actually its….
    “because for years I thought what was good for our country was good for General Motors, and vice versa”. This statement has been misquoted endlessly, in the inverted form of “What’s good for General Motors is good for the country”

  69. I think we are seeing exactly the business experience Mittens brags about so much. Business deals may be carefully researched beforehand but the implementation is often very, very quick. It doesn’t drag on and on as he is now experiencing. Furthermore, business deals are usually not the subject of such media attention as a campaign gets. He is not used to this and has just never caught on to all the differences between public and private sector. Consequently he can’t help but keep the gaffes coming. No, we do not need a business man in the White House. We’ve had them at cabinet level before. One of them many years ago even let us know that what was good for General Motors was good for the country. Huh??? Only if this entire country, every inch of it,was covered with an assembly line.

  70. Cui bono? I prefer Gordon Duff’s perspective on this incident over at Veteran’s Today. Apparently I cannot provide a link to it, as my first comment disappeared into cyber space.

  71. PEACE ~ Δ”

    *Aloha Auntie Jean :)

  72. well waialeale….
    I doubt the Muslim brotherhood wants to forgive and forget……maybe they should read up on the avenging angels and the Knights templar……

  73. Hi Congenial Gang,

    Rhetorical question. How many more millennia do we have to keep this family feud going between the half-brothers, Ishmael and Isaac, the sons of Abraham? I’m an Old Broad, but not so old that I was eye witness to any of the details of their beef. Could be it’s time to forgive and forget and get on with life in this day and age.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam. Peace.

    Auntie Jean

  74. Anonymous, your comment exemplifies the stupid, petty issues everyone is tired of. Barack Obama is the leader of the Democratic Party and he wanted that word in the platform. So now it’s in. It’s called leadership. Case closed. Romney should look into the concept.

  75. I wonder, at the DNC, when the Mayor of LA, decided to ignore the will of the people, to disregard the rules set by the DNC, to put God back on the platform, how you all figure we can trust them when they cannot follow their own rules? The majority clearly spoke out against God. The rules stated a 2/3 vote was required and it was not met. Yet because Obama said it was so, rules be dammed, it was so.

  76. Right on, Patty!

    Yeah, let’s take a look at how the past few years have been going for the one percent… For one thing, the income disparity between CEOs and workers is at a staggering – and, in my opinion – shameful level, as is the gap between the very wealthy and the supposed “middle class”. And the poor. (More people are not on food stamps and government support because they just feel like it; a huge number of them are there because opportunity after opportunity has been taken from them…)

    And the very wealthy want MORE…?!? At some point, isn’t “enough” obscenely more than enough…?

    “How you treat the least among you is how you treat Me”, to paraphrase the Bible. Right, “Christians”?


  77. I wish someone would ask the Koch brothers if they are better off today than they were four years ago. Wichita’s paper has an article today saying that they had their best year ever in 2011, and expect 2012′s numbers to be even better. If that question is the criteria the Repugs are using to show how awful President Obama has run this country, maybe they’re just not asking the right people.

  78. Just read that Romney asked some of this VP candidates to provide ten years of tax returns! I think they call that hypocrisy.

  79. Terri, Gato, what you posted is so true. I saw Michael Medved, supporting Mitt, and saying the post by those in the embassy, should be extrapolated to Obama, and i screamed at the TV ” THEY ARE THE ONES IN DANGER! so now it is only patriotic if you die in your country’s service, not live to fight another day? These comments by his self and his advocates, are so contemptable, if if where their sons/daughters inside, would they be singing the same tune?

  80. Terri – “I don’t think he gave a thought to the people in the embassies; and how frightened they must have been.”

    When I read that, I literally burst into tears. I also saw some photos of the attacks… A living hell. And good and decent Americans died trying to serve their country.

    How can a professed man of faith be so utterly soulless, and void of human compassion? He probably has had some in his life, and he has apparently given that away to this “campaign”… This is becoming more and more apparent as the weeks go by.

    Talk about a Portrait of Dorian Gray…

    Thanks for your powerful post.


  81. Gato,
    I agree. And at the risk of piling on, I think Mitt feels entitled to win, and he hates having to ask citizens for their votes, and he feels talking to those whom he considers to be the little people is beneath him. But yesterday I got the feeling that he is not a good man. His words and actions seemed so craven, so ruthlessly political and self-interested, that I now really doubt his character. I don’t think he gave a thought to the people in the embassies; and how frightened they must have been. Americans died yesterday yet his only concern was how he could gain political advantage. He knows nothing about foreign policy or diplomacy and I see no indication he is interested in learning. He wants only to score political points.

  82. HI, Terri – Yes; Romney seems obsessed with winning, and only with winning. Maybe he’s thinking that if he wins, then he might be able to figure out how to govern. (Maybe he has a “plan”… But I doubt it. He’s given no indication, so far, that he’s very good at planning ahead in any area, other than – maybe – money management.)

    Unfortunately, when you’re obsessed with something, you miss a lot of what’s really going on outside the field of your obsession. You know, like reality… Or very angry people with very different goals… And it is impossible to deal well, if at all, with anything to which you are basically oblivious.

    As for the Embassy issuing a statement indicating some understanding of the mob’s concerns… It’s exactly what they should have done, at that point in time. IT’S AN EMBASSY, FER KRISSAKES! PEOPLE IN AN EMBASSY ARE THERE TO BE DIPLOMATIC. Being a diplomat is not the equivalent of being an apologist. Tragically, their effort failed in this situation… But that does not mean it was a faulty effort. It means that the opposition, like Romney, is obsessed with its own goal, and willing to do anything they can to achieve it.

    To fault an Embassy staff for making an effort to defuse an escalating situation – a situation in which THEIR lives were at risk, not Romney’s – and then blame the President for not rejecting their effort, to me is indicative of someone who understands nothing – NOTHING – about either diplomacy or governing.

    MITT’S UNFIT. Again. Period.


  83. Here is how Mitt decided to handle this crisis in the Middle East (or any crisis). First he would see how Obama handled it and then he would say Obama’s way was wrong. It doesn’t matter to him if Obama’s strategy was correct, or logical, or diplomatic: it must be wrong and he must criticize. He is simply a reactionary empty suit, a souless man who attacks his own president during a difficult time without any thought as to how it will be perceived. He only wants to win and gain an advantage, and he will do anything, not matter how harmful, to do that. I really, really, don’t like the guy.

  84. gato-
    Yes, contemplating the absurd is fun :-)
    And you are correct it is a limited notion of personhood.
    But, now, one which creates many, many, many problems.

    I don’t think most people even here in Alaska , let alone Outside, know how thoroughly bounded the lives of Alaska Natives are by ” corporateness” post ANCSA
    ( Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act 1971) with Regional Corps, Village Corps, CDQs, etc. Corporate culture has created unique difficulties with the human culture.

    I wish Donna who visits here on and off would weigh in on the corporate- personhood dealie.


    Is it just me or is it ironic that the 14th amendment some like to rail against for protections for immigrants, et al, is the basis for corporate person-ness?

  85. HI, Bo – Let’s hope you’re right, and – so far – things look promising.

    The statement someone made this morning in the “news” about there being “differing opinions about the timing of the Embassy statement” is absolute crap. That’s like saying there’s a “difference of opinion” about whether morning comes before, or after, afternoon…

    If I were sitting in an Embassy in a foreign country, with minimal security – or even with tons of security – surrounded by hordes of enraged religious fundamentalists, you can bet your booty the first thing I would do would be to issue what I hoped might be a calming statement – a statement indicating some understanding of their concerns.

    Romney – and his handlers – are apparently incapable of understanding that expressing empathy for someone else’s concerns is not an “apology” for one’s own beliefs or values. Or, more likely, they know the difference full well – and choose, anyway, to take a knee-jerk position they hope will gain him some political points. Disgusting… And incredibly dangerous.

    I agree: Not fit. Period.


  86. Hi, PI – BRILLIANT! Even my husband (Republican/former businessman/consultant) laughed out loud when I read it to him. And, yes, the more we think about the idea, the more absurd we see it is.

    I believe the SCOTUS opinion was something along the lines of considering a corporation a “person” ONLY as far as “free speech” and contractual obligations are concerned… Which should make it equally possible for me to consider myself a “corporation” ONLY when it comes to my filling out my income tax returns or signing a contract…

    What’s fair is fair, right?


  87. The MittWit is defending his “political suicide” today by claiming that the White House’s own actions prove that he was right in the first place! This empty suit is getting all tangled up in his magic underwear. The most pathetic thing of all is that he still doesn’t understand why everyone is either criticizing him and no one (other than the right-wing radio rant-jockeys) is coming to his defense.
    This smirkingly smugtastic and smarmtacular candidate was too intent upon counting political coup rather than to first fulfill his responsibility as a U.S. citizen — that is, to express sympathy for those who lost their lives and support the country. Mr. Romney, you should have listened to President Obama’s acceptance speech . . . you see, it’s about citizenship.
    I, for one, do not and will not vote for a candidate like The MittWit who is not willing or able to fulfill his citizenship obligations. He is unfit to be president. Period. Unqualified. Impetuous. Cynical.
    I sincerely hope that Willard will triple down and quadruple down on his campaign-killing comments. It will drive him so deep in the weeds that his running mate will have to go rogue ala Palin in order to keep the ticket on the radar. And that will virtually assure President Obama’s re-election.

  88. UAW-
    Sometimes it IS too early…
    Before full information is available is too early.
    Add in conflating tweets from a scared staffer in Egypt with Presidential policy and you have, at best, a rather untidy and unsatisfactory response from Mr Romney who wants to represent our values.At worst, you have a cynical play on the old, old game about Dems being too soft to manage to defend the country- going back to at least the Nixon/McGovern election
    Mr Bush managed a considerably better response on 9.11


  89. Take the statement you so delicately carved out of the context and add back in the who, what, when, where and why.

    Consider what it was in response to – a statement made to diffuse a tense situation caused by American asshats (Terry Jones, for example), BEFORE the murders.

    Consider who it was criticizing – the President, for something said by an embassy to diffuse a tense situation caused by American asshats (Terry Jones, for example), BEFORE the murders.

    Consider when it was said – during a time of national crisis, during a time when diplomacy is required, during a time when people were mourning.

    Consider where it was said – from the cushy vantage point of a campaign trail.

    Consider that the “American values” Romney was defending were the sentiments of the slimy movie producer and Terry Jones and people like him.

    Consider that it’s important to keep our ambassadors and workers over there safe by not inflaming a situation.

    Consider that a Presidential contender ought to know better than to attack the President while the crisis is still going on just to score cheap political points. (Huge fail!)

    Yeah, all that, AND the smirk.

  90. What was worse than Romney’s ill timed response to the murder of our ambassador and his staff? That damn smirk! After 8 years of smirkiness I have more than had it with that Republican hallmark! Why havn’t his over priced political staffers warned him about this? Oh, right! They’re the ones who blessed the American public with “etcha sketch”! And “retroactive retirement.” Yeeeesh!

  91. so what’s wrong with….
    “It’s never too early for the United States government to condemn attacks on Americans and to defend our values,”

  92. IF G.W.Bush was the CEO president…

    …then Mittens is the Citizen’s United Candidate!

    PEACE ~ Δ

  93. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/middleeast/la-na-libya-campaign-20120913,0,1662505.story

    Mr Romney is using information out of context on purpose to supposedly make a point about values and sovereignty.
    That is not small and clueless.
    That is cold blooded mercenary horsepunky.

    Haven’t tracked down the anti-Muslim youtube yet but am thinking Mr Romney might come to regret using it to shoot his mouth off with :”a terrible course to — for America to stand in apology for our values.”
    what value(s) is he yapping about?
    Religious intolerance?
    Cultural intolerance?
    We really want to be un-apologetic about those kinds of things? Pffft

  94. Thanks for the link pi. I did not believe it for a minute thatwhat Mitt was spouting was real truth. If there is anything I know, it is that Mitt is an opportunist. He should be ashamed of himself for trying to exploit this tragedy. Yes, I see the contrast between Mitt and the President. It is not to Mitt’s advantage. He sounded small and clueless.

  95. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504564_162-57511823-504564/romneys-libya-gibes-aimed-to-show-contrasts-with-obama/

    read through this Easier. it is strategy not real truth.

  96. gato-
    you forgot:
    1-under law polygamy is banned so no endless mergers and such
    2-articles of incorporation will be deemed a birth certificate and death certificates (dissolution of incorporation) will be issued at normal life expectancy of real breathing humans. assets will go into probate and follow all those laws. should the corporation die intestate, strict rules will be followed for disbursement of assets to closest relatives .whether such process takes years is of no consequence.
    3-corporations may only deduct such items on income taxes as you and I might and mortgage deductions are limited to principal residences- none of those dang summer cottages, factories, or that kind of sneaky stuff.
    4- deadbeat-parent laws may be fully enforced against corporations who do not meet their obligations to employees -esp if it is found the corp gambled away their $ that was for food on the table for the folks who rely on them .
    I can think of a number more.
    Corporations are a legal fiction, one which faultily has equality under law with flesh, blood, and bone humans. Fun to tease about though.

    I agree. Pretty irritated that Gramm, et al have been able to skate on the G-L-B Act .
    Not so astonished at the continued yap about deregulation though. Disagree with it but not astonished. Search Paul Treanor and neoliberalism.
    (Treanor is pretty testy on the subject but a pretty good read )
    The utopian belief that unregulated markets will self correct is under it all. Ignoring the recent meltdown and/or blaming it on poor people seems to be the rationale for continuing the foolishness. :-) UAW-
    Congress is the messiest arm of our 3 armed government, isn’t it? Sure has been for quite awhile now anyway…

  97. I listened to President Obama’s remarks about the protests in Lybia with the resulting violence killing 4 people including the ambassador. I heard nothing about him supporting the mob. Where did Mitt get that President Obama is supporting the protesters? Did somebody hear the President offer such support? It would be so unlike this President. Does somebody have a link to the president’s remarks supporting Mitt’s assertion?

  98. Hi, Sue – Gato here again. And it IS kind of an interesting hypothetical, isn’t it? I can take it a little further… And I’d love to see other ideas from our “congenial gang”.

    Well, first, each corporation would have only one vote, just like the rest of us people. Second, each corporation would be limited in the amount of money it could contribute to a political campaign, just like the rest of us. Third, each corporation would have to register to vote somewhere, and show appropriate ID at the polling station… Just like the rest of us. (And each would get a little sticker, saying, “I voted today”)… Just like the rest of us. Fourth, each corporation would have to show at least one form of photo ID, and a bank card, any time it wanted to draw money out of its own checking or savings account, at its own bank… Just like the rest of us. Fifth, any time a corporation wanted to donate money to any political group, it would have to sign an affidavit assuring that it was doing so with only its own funds, and not anyone else’s, just like the rest of us.

    And that’s just for starters…


  99. I have never heard this said as plain or as well. Class war at its best.

    The folks who are getting the free shit, don’t like the folks who are paying for the free shit,because the folks who are paying for the free shit, can no longer afford to pay for both the free shit and their own shit,


    The folks who are paying for the free shit,want the free shit to stop.and the the folks who are getting the free shit,want even more free shit on top of the free shit they are already getting!

    Now… The people who are forcing the people who Pay for the free shit,have told the people who are RECEIVING the free shit,that the people who are PAYING for the free shit, are being mean, prejudiced, and racist.

    So… the people who are GETTING the free shit, have been convinced they need to hate the people who are paying for the free shit, by the people who are forcing some people to pay for their free shit, and giving them the free shit in the first place.

    We have let the free shit giving go on for so long that there are Now more people getting free shit than paying for the free shit.

    Now understand this. All great democracies have committed financial suicide somewhere between 200 and 250 years after being founded. The reason? The voters figured out they could vote themselves money from the treasury by electing people who promised to give them money from the treasury in exchange for electing them.The United States officially became a Republic in 1776, 231 years ago. The number of people now getting free shit outnumbers the people paying for the free shit. We have one chance to change that in 2012. Failure to change that spells the end of the United States as we know it.


    A Nation of Sheep Breeds a Government of Wolves!

    I’M 100% for PASSING THIS ON!!!

    Let’s Take a Stand!!!

    Obama: Gone!

    Borders: Closed!

    Language: English only

    Culture: Constitution, and the Bill of Rights!

    Drug Free: Mandatory Drug Screening before Welfare!

    NO freebies to: Non-Citizens!

    We the people are coming
    Only 86% will send this on. Should be a 100%. What will you do?

  100. Whoops, I meant to say Libya and Egypt (not Syria). Sorry.

  101. Hi Congenial Gang,

    When it comes to religio-political fanaticism of any stripe across the board, I think Voltaire said it best::

    “Those who can make your believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”

    Aloha. Namaste. Shalom. Saalam. Peace.

    Auntie Jean

  102. Thank you Mitt Romney. Your craven, downright dishonest and stupid response to the events in Syria and Egypt have shown your true colors. You are not up to the job. Go back to Bain.

  103. [...] it’s old news, way back from last week, but the whole post is a riot. Here’s a snippet: AMaybe it’s just me Margaret, but the Republicans have a real problem. Eventually a nun is going t… September 12, 2012 | Posted by: Frank | Posted in: Political Theatre | Bookmark this post [...]

  104. Alaskapi:

    There is absolutely no question that Clinton was wrong in signing the bill that repealed Glass-Stegall. What I find amazing is that the folks who convinced Clinton it was a good idea, including nearly every Republican in Congress at the time, and Phil Gramm who wrote the act are rarely mentioned as having any responsibility for it.

    If this is just a question of fixing blame, then I’ll be happy to tar President Clinton with the whole debacle, if we can just agree that the underlying idea was a bad one, and get the Republicans to stop promoting it all over again.

    The way this seems to work out is the GOP tells us how wonderful deregulation is, when it crashes the economy they blame the Democrats they talked into going along with them, and then start agitating for the same damn policies all over again.

    If it was a bad idea when Clinton did it, then its a bad idea for Romney to do it again. If the GOP will just admit that, we’ll be a whole lot better off.

  105. Do we want Romney answering the 3 am phone call?…..or trust him with his finger on the big red button?



  106. “Congress has remained a collection of two-cent politicians who could serve well enough in simpler days. But the ignorance and provincialism of Congress renders it incapable of meeting the needs of modern government.”

    “People don’t care what the average senator or congressman says. The reason they don’t care is that they know what you hear in Congress is 99 percent tripe, ignorance and demagoguery and not to be relied on.”

    One could rightly assume this quote is recent.

    In fact, it was written

    in early 1942 by Raymond Clapper,

  107. “bull shit” is right !!! Rail against Romney’s self made hard working wealth
    and family values but I bet you voted for Kennedy’s inherited riches from daddy’s rum running wealth and had the family morals of an over sexed billy goat. O by the way he has 50,000 + deaths from Viet Nam on his head.
    Eisenhower said no to the French pleas for help at Bien Bien Phou. And
    let’s forget he got fraudily elected by Mayor Daley’s “vote early, vote often”
    And Chicago: 60+ years of Demo gov. more murders than Afganistan, huge
    unemployment, teacher Demo. union throwing 350,000 out of school, because 6,000 lousy teachers jobs are threatened, compares to Repub. gov
    New York’s jobs growth, schools etc. As for Obama, I like Joe Biden’s call for “arithmetic” since taking office, more blacks, women, mexicans, and youth are now unemployed “how’s that working for you” Is that the “new direction” you voted for.

  108. Gato, That is an excellent point! (See. I’m not unreasonable.) If we were to really treat corporations like people, that could guide a lot of policies directed at corporations. It should include positives, not just negatives. Anybody have any ideas about this. I really like it! What would it look like?

  109. Mr Clinton saw that later


    Is one of the things Congress hasn’t been able to get its collective mind around- the oh-crap-this-didn’t/doesn’t-work-we-better-fix-it dealie.

  110. I agree mostly UAW but I also think the last 4 years have been a total waste as opposed to preceding years.
    I’m also convinced that the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, endorsed and signed by Mr Clinton , was at least partially, if not majorly, at the root of the financial collapse .


    The assumption that later administrations would keep up on the oversight required was faulty and bit every single one of us in the buns.

  111. HI Alaskapi…..

    “You hear me Congress? You have wasted the last 4 years playing games.”

    IMHO they’ve wasted at least 6 years and actually closer to 16 years……
    Clinton and Newt at least tried to work together….

  112. UAW-
    An Alaskan going to a PETA site? Are you kidding me?!! LOL
    Nope- just arguing with the metropolitan majority about Pebble Mine, fishing, and Native rights mostly, along with some forays into how I see Democratic Centrist/New Democrats/ Third Way policies and positions ( the largest voice(s) in the D party currently ) being inadequate to the situations at hand here in the state and across the country.
    Still think they are better than the whole R set of voices though.
    The unhappy marriage of the neocon political stance and neoliberal economic POV in R philosophy is at root of much of the mess we have made in this country the last 20 years, esp the last 12+,
    You hear me Congress? You have wasted the last 4 years playing games.

    Getting told by a lot by folks I’m not supposed to ask/question my own Party’s part in accepting neoliberal economics :-) hasn’t shut me up . Just taking a looonnnggg weekend from all the puffery and indignation stuff about solidarity.
    Make no mistake though. Symbolic only, I will still vote for Mr Obama, the total non-socialist (being a very, very left libertarian , I still laugh until I almost wet my pants over folks calling him a socialist) as my bright line this go around is the Supreme Court and the WHO will appoint new Justices.
    Mr Romney is in no way fit to choose to fill any slots there. No way.

  113. Hi, again, JC – Just had another thought… If, after all, “corporations are people (my friend)”, then all the more reason they should be “regulated”, just like the rest of us, don’t you think?

    WE have to recycle our garbage; WE have to pass a test to get a driver’s license; WE have to tell the IRS where we got all our money, and what we’ve done with it; WE’re not allowed to let our dog poop in our neighbor’s yard, and WE’re certainly prohibited from buying off our local police officer so she won’t give us a ticket.

    Let’s get fair, shall we? If you want to be called a “person”, then you danged well have to act like one!


  114. Hi, JC – I think your post is TERRIFIC! You should do a “whiteboard” presentation with that material…

    According to the late economist, Milton Friedman (so revered by the plutocrats), the only “responsibility” of any business is to MAKE A PROFIT.

    If one agrees with that premise, it follows that expecting businesses to willingly institute any “self-regulation” that stands in the way of their doing so is like that parable about the lion who carries a scorpion across the river, and then is surprised and shocked when the scorpion stings him… To which the scorpion replies, “What did you expect? I’m a scorpion…”

    Fascinatingly enough, Friedman’s entire argument is based on the following statement, which he wrote in is article for the New York Times Magazine, on September 13, 1970: “What does it mean to say that ‘business’ has responsibilities? Only people can have responsibilities. A corporation is an artificial person and in this sense may have artificial responsibilities.”

    We don’t hear the plutocrats quoting him much on that part, do we? And the SCOTUS certainly “overlooked” it when they handed down the accursed “Citizens United” ruling.

    And, as you so rightly point out, the bigger the business, the more is at stake; the less businesses are run by owners, and more by hired executives, the less they care about workers or about the communities in which they are located; and the more profit they make, the more they can spend buying legislators who will eliminate regulations that hamper their profits… And the greater their profits, the more legislators they can buy… And so on, and so on…

    Anyone who thinks a “businessman”, especially one whose primary “business” was to use other people’s money solely to make money for his own company – and would do whatever was needed to make that happen – is a good choice to run a country filled with actual human beings, is, in my opinion, out of his or her mind.


  115. Hi Sue/seghull  (and everyone else too!)
    I’m behind because we were doing home repairs related to a leak.  Then, of course, there is work!

    I have two questions for you, one which includes a little background noise.

    How do you see a Romney/Ryan presidency helping create living-wage jobs?  How do you see yourself benefitting from such a presidency?  Romney by his own admission has never run an ordinary company.  He 
    reminds me of Milken, the junk bond king- 
    more on that when I figure out why.  Ryan has very little experience in the private sector, most of his working life has been in the government at some level (see also, Fortunate Son, CCR).

    Why is regulation of any sort such an anathema to Republicans?  Why are they so trusting?  I know from bitter experience that companies in the petrochemical industry (I grew up in the Houston area) have a long track record of fighting the most basic clean air and water restrictions;  if they save a few cents per unit processed the savings add up rapidly.  They have a long track record of bucking OSHA – safety stuff takes time that could be used to do something else;  cheaper to buy off a guy that gets injured, isnt that why they carry insurance?  The Bhopal Union Carbide disaster did not occur for no reason.  The truth is, corporations make very poor neighbors, and always have.  The difference is, in earlier times much was due to ignorance:  new processes and new inventions created unintended consequences that became apparent over time.  Now the consequences are merely swept aside or concealed as long as possible in order to protect profits.  Those same profits, meanwhile, are distributed within an ever-decreasing pool of persons.  Thus the problem we have today with CEOs making 400+ times the money that base workers are making, for no reason I can see!   Again in earlier times, the CEO was the owner also with an investment of his own at risk: if you take the risk, yes, you deserve the profit.  Now these guys are paid a large salary plus options AND bonuses, while the shareholders put up themoney and take the risks.  Meanwhile, they try to maximize their profits at the expense of their laborers, their immediate neighbors, in some cases consumers, and the environment at large.  They coyly label this “collateral damage” for the sake of analysis.   

    So, we are no longer in ignorance of the consequences of our processes, we know what safety procedures guarantee at least a minimum of protections, and we know what damage (in illness, injury, death, loss of capital and environmental destruction) we risk from ignoring these consequences and precautions, and we need FEWER REGULATIONS?!

    Sorry, my experience is that people do the expedient thing especially if they stand to profit by it.  We need more protections if anything, not fewer.

    Sorry to be so long-winded too, but these things are complicated! And I didn’t even get to religion! :D

  116. Damn Alaska….
    the Dems don’t like you?????????
    WTF……..your not going to PETA sites are you??????

  117. Americans may not, but Italians get it.

    The 9/11 attacks were a global state terror operation permitted by the administration of the USA, which had foreknowledge of the operation yet remained intentionally unresponsive in order to make war against Afghanistan and Iraq. To put it briefly, the 9/11 events were an instance of the strategy of tension enacted by political and economicpowers in the USA to seek advantages for the oil and arms industries.


  118. Too bad the GOP doesn’t have many good guys like some of ours :


    We don’t have enough of em either :-)

    We have some damn fine Ds too
    Hope we can hang onto them with redistricting throwing every single seat in the state except my (great) State Senator’s into the ring and big oil spending a bazillion bucks to scare folks into dropping the good guys.

  119. UAW- :-)
    I’m taking a mini-break from yakking politics. Got on a roll recently which got me “shouted” at and frozen out of conversation on a couple of my favorite blogs for being waaaayyy too frickin left wing… imagine that from all my liberal friends? Hehehehe…
    Right now, all the political back and forth feels more like taking the temperature of the people pictured on the box the thermometer came in, from either and all sides, and not of real live blood, bone, and flesh people.

    Also too- since my vote in the federal election, for President , is merely symbolic ( Alaska has doodly-squat effect on the electoral college- none of the candidates even bother stopping in even ) I’ve been paying what attention I am paying to politics to local stuff.

    We have a major battle brewing in our state Senate elections here, one in which our (current) stoopid governor is working to get rid of multiple Senators, many of them Rs ( some very, very, very good Rs) , who had the audacity to create a bipartisan majority coalition in the Senate with Ds .
    For craps sake- we have something Americans all over the country have been hoping to get back to and the twit wants to bust it up!
    Wants to bust it up so he can have a rubber stamp legislature to ram through business”friendly” crap which will hurt Alaskans while it makes business friends rich(er).
    I may yet stroke out before this one is over, but other than that I am fine. :-)
    you take care-
    some tires are solid, some are not- all need kicking.
    Thanks for having us all in Helen and Margaret- !

  120. Just as probably all of us on this blog, I love this country. It is a shame that we the people become distracted and shout at one another along the barricades. I think the more we tweet or call our reps and voice our displeasure over their lack of cooperation. Been a political unkie since I was a teenager back in the 60′s. The level of animosity has never been so overt. Should we not be focusing on a real issue and not whether Obama wants to take God off the currency nonsense? We have got the post office in a horrible state due to the ridiculous requirement that they prepay their funds, for retirement or healthcare, presently can’t remember which. They otherwise would be in good financial shape. This affects real lives and jobs with decent wages. Instead we got the legislators sayin they won’t raise on dollar on the “job makers”. Do we realize they signed apledge to a wealthy Grover Norquist who really should not that kind of influence, who elected him to be our leader? I do not understand why the repubs don’t see thru this and voice their outrage. The dems got their problems too, but we at least cooperated under Bush, even when he had all the majorities, and the govt kept going on.

  121. I don’t know what you did in the interim, UAW.

  122. yes PC…….

    I posted and 12 minutes later I posted again…….your point being……that I sat there and drooled on myself or what…….did I have to go back and google the ABC article again to post the link after you or donnamf54 assumed it was the same article…….YES….
    you know what they say about assuming…..

  123. Hope you had a better day than our people had in Egypt and Libya…..

    How’s that Nobel Peace Prize working Obama…..

  124. On September 10th at 6:14 PM you linked to Obama’s speech, citing many quotes from it. At 6:26 you commented on his “flubbing his three word speech”

    At 9:51 donnamf54 suggested you actually read the speech.

  125. I’ll agree with the toddler statement Terri….there’s more than one here……and as for snarky …I wish Alaskapi was back…..so there would be a rational, non childish liberal here…..

  126. sorry pcliberal….if your bringing up the 3word flub, I didn’t link anything….if you went to the previous link…sorry….
    and if the released transcript is different than the spoken one???????they usually release a transcript ahead of time….

  127. Gato,
    I agree with everything you say, and you say it so well. I wish we had a rational Republican or conservative here who could present their case without all the childish “he did it, so it’s okay if we do it.” It’s like arguing with a toddler. I find it tiresome and distracting. I try to ignore the comments, but sometimes it’s necessary to read them to follow the thread of the conversation. But I enjoy your well written posts, so keep them coming!

  128. I know you asked Dee, but UAWtradesman, let me see if I can help out with your “all the animosity” question.

    First, let’s put the questions about what Obama and Romney did aside for a moment. None of us can control what they did. Here’s what you did.

    You came in here and made a snarky comment and linked to something that didn’t support your case, and in fact proved you wrong. So you left yourself wide open for the your method of argumentation…”Well, person A may have done this but look what Person B did” …to be turned against you.

    Come to find out, you were talking about something else, about a whole ‘nother speech. So when you corrected yourself, you revealed that not only can’t you read and fact check your own material, but your retention of stuff you’ve read isn’t very good, or you would have linked to the right story in the first place.

  129. Thanks, Sue – That notion struck me as true and powerful, wherever I came across it. And, along with that is the realization that, often, those who are the most disturbed, and feeling powerless – because they sense quite correctly that there are great forces at work they KNOW are affecting them, but are so difficult to pinpoint – are those who cling most desperately to the “easier” argument. And any argument will do. If one argument is “defeated”, they will immediately bring up three or others.

    The distress is well-founded; I try never to forget that.

    But it is so much more comfortable to argue about a birth certificate, or a three-word phrase someone said, or the disclosure of tax returns, or the wearing of a $900 tee shirt, than it is to say, “Oh, my god, why are a bunch of faceless corporations trying to take over my country and my life, and what on earth can I do about that…?”

    I certainly do not exclude myself from those who do that; I am one of them, sometimes. How many times I have gotten into loud arguments with my husband over some petty thing, when I knew, in my soul, that the small thing wasn’t the real issue at all…

    Oh, that very well-known phrase… Divide and conquer…

    Any step to resolve the division is a good one. As somebody once said, “Nobody ever WINS a fight.”


  130. Yea Helen. You are spot on, as usual.

  131. Gato, I think you have discovered a basic truth. As long as the regular folks (that’s us) keep fighting among ourselves, the leadership can do whatever it wants. We are otherwise occupied, and not paying attention.

  132. Hey…new subject…let’s talk about Obama’s budget…..(I believe Ryan’s budget was brought up)

    Obama budget defeated 99-0 in Senate


    how about……

    No budget for 1,231 days, but Obama team lectures Somalia on leadership


    and something that pisses me off…

    Obama To Soldiers Overseas: No Voting For You!


  133. HI, Terri – It all seems like kind of a sorry macrocosm of the US government in the last several years, doesn’t it? Obstinate, angry, petulant, unhappy, no interest in any real cooperation, no concern for the “good of all”… Just, “You say THAT? Well, I’m saying THIS!” It really is like a war between tribal factions, right here in the US of A… With slightly fewer AK-47s.

    Are the politicians reflecting the divisive mood of the country, or are they encouraging and feeding it…? I think they sense its existence, and are doing their best to encourage it.

    As long as the populace can be kept distracted by petty issues and quarreling among themselves, the powers that be have a much easier time accomplishing whatever they feel they need to do, quietly under the radar, to move things in their direction – not ours. And, yes, I’m talking about voter disenfranchisement!

    I’m sure people are convinced that they have “good reason” to be angry, and they do. They are just often angry at the wrong people, for the wrong reasons. And that’s just the way the power mongers like to keep it.


  134. what I can’t figure out is all the animosity about Obama flubs 3 word comment…..after Obama makes a comment about Romney’s “bad math”…..

    Yes Dee…help me with my thought processes…..tell me how good a representative is that says “We have to pass this bill to see what’s in it”….I didn’t ask what you thought about the bill…….but what if we found out that doctors didn’t have to pay income taxes, or child molesters were automatically castrated(well…OK), or all capital gains were tax free…….shouldn’t the lawmakers already know this before they vote on a bill….that’s what I’m pissed about……and the people that blindly follow them…..

  135. Yeah Gat and Terri: I have read Tradesman’s comments and know he likes to play devil’s advocate or to stir up the hive. I believe he wrote a little why he is the way he is. in one of his posts. I think he is a very sad person who needs the attention, and being the liberal mormon that I am, I seek to help this man see the error of his thought process, and to reason with him. He has his agency to be intransigent, but it will profit him nothing in the end.. I don’t feel it is conducive to lie about my fellow man or beat a dead horse, as he seems to be doing. BTW, Tradesman, I plead ignorant of Alaskapi.

  136. Jeez, the stupid repetition of comments from UAW could drive someone mad. He thinks a “tit for tat” argument is productive. If someone here points out something about the Republicans he doesn’t like, he searches for something by the Dems. They don’t have to be equivalent, mind you, or even related; they just have to serve his so-called purpose of calling out both parties. The fact that Democrats (or as he calls them “liberals” have never been for just giving stuff away doesn’t bother him, having heard it on Faux News and Limbaugh, he states that is their purpose, and having set up his straw man, he proceeds to knock it down; thinking he’s being very smart and perceptive in the process. Then he throws in those little insults like “Chicago math.” It’s effing boring and pointless.

  137. and for a little humor….


  138. Jeez Gato….
    I hope you aren’t making “snarky, snide and cynical remarks.”

  139. Well Dee….I had great teachers here……

    “It is amazing that all you saw was a way to make ignorant, snarky, snide and cynical remarks.”

    they talk about not being able to “teach an old dog new tricks” but I still picked up a few from this site……you(plural) can all be good teachers…..
    NO….leave Alaskapi out of that group…..

  140. Hi, Dee – Good luck with UAW! In my experience, posting anything to him that does not conform to his POV is pretty much like putting your best fleece slippers on the floor near an untrained puppy, and thinking it will do anything but love chewing them to bits…

    Always enjoy your thoughtful comments…


  141. Cynthia…look in the mirror when you talk about hate and anger…..
    I said before I kick tires and point out Dems and Repubs acting alike…….make up your mind….if it’s wrong for a Repub to do something its also wrong for a Dem……or is it OK with you if a Dem does it…..
    I’m glad that we agree on some things…….not being able to count being one…..
    I’ve also been accused of misquoting and misrepresenting things…..M&H are also guilty of that and a lot of liberal posters here also…..


    Now if your pissed because I don’t bow down to the GREAT ONE….fine…be pissed…..

  142. Tradesman: Of course I liked them, I wanted you to see, he is about, accountability on everyone’s part, handouts are wrong, we should earn what we get and no charity can adequately cure the needs of the impoverished. It is amazing that all you saw was a way to make ignorant, snarky, snide and cynical remarks.Again, that is your and others with the same attitudes, problem. You are so busy “going beyond the mark” you can’t see that we must work together, instead of tearing down. You (collectively) post dumb posts on sites besmerching someone’s ancestry, Obama’s so-called “rage”,
    and still worrying about the place of his birth. To paraphrase “the American President”- your fifteen minutes are up, and HE’S the president!

  143. uaw –
    That’s the best tire kicking you can come up with? So he blew the three words thing….the meaning was there. Besides those dumbasses in Florida can’t count anyway so they wouldn’t have noticed. (I can not believe what has happened to my state!)

    I am damn sure he would have acted differently on the Bin Ladin information unlike your Bush.

    As for your September 11, 2012 at 11:31 AM comment:
    You are wrong about Liberals being pissed, we agree with him. You need to put some sugar on that big bowl of hate and anger you have for breakfast every morning, eh?.


  144. well DE….
    I posted the words from Obama’s speech that I liked…..did you approve of them also….

    and students, you’ve gotta do the work.(can’t just look at pics)

    not every problem can be remedied with another government program or dictate from Washington.(liberals should be pissed about this one)

    No democracy works without compromise.(tell that to Harry Reid)

    We don’t want handouts for people who refuse to help themselves(liberals should be really, really pissed about this one)

    Thank you, God bless you, and may God bless these United
    States.(and I agree……God bless these United States)

  145. speaking of checking…..


    maybe H&M should try it…..

  146. actually Anon……what liberals do most often….
    “Misquote or misrepresent something, and then hope no one will bother to actually check…… Ho hum… same old, same old.”

  147. Cynthia….sorry for not including the link about 3 word flub but it was ABC News


  148. Jeez donnamf54…I counted 4 words….did you go to school in Chicago also…..

  149. The Bush White House was deaf to 9/11 Warnings


    Making a correction to the worst president ever…….forgive me Millard.
    And Happy Birthday son!


  150. This is what right-wingers often do. Misquote or misrepresent something, and then hope no one will bother to actually check…… Ho hum… same old, same old.

  151. UAW = Unhappy, Adolescent Word-police

  152. uaw – This is from the link you provided:

    “I’ve signed trade agreements that are helping our companies
    sell more goods to millions of new customers, goods that are
    stamped with three proud words: Made in America.”

    What tires are you kicking?

  153. What a waste of time. That is what is wrong with the conversation. You focus on “three words” but you fail to see the importance of the words he spoke in what you copied. Re-read them Tradesman, and realize this is what Barack Obama is about, instead of trying to play word games.

  154. I think for President Obama it is Chicago math. A phrase with two white-space areas parses into three words.

    I think for UAWTradesman it is Fox-style reading comprehension (notice where the link goes.) Even when your own reportage accurately quotes something, you misread it and claim the speaker actually embarrassed himself by saying something else.

  155. UAW -Thanks for providing the link to the President’s speech, but you might want to click that link yourself and re-read what he actually said.
    I also went back and actually listened to his speech just to make sure, and the quote was “three proud words, Made in America.” His math is just fine.

  156. Obama Flubs His ‘Three Proud Words’,,,,,,after bashing Romney for “bad math”….


    must be Chicago math……

  157. going through Obama’s nomination transcript to make sure I got everything right…..

    But teachers must inspire; principals must lead; parents must instill a thirst for learning, and students, you’ve gotta do the work.”

    “And by the way, those of us who carry on his party’s legacy
    should remember that not every problem can be remedied with another
    government program or dictate from Washington.”

    “No party has a monopoly on wisdom. No democracy works without compromise. I want to get this done, and we can get it done. ”

    “We’re not entitled to success. We have to earn it.”

    “We know that churches and charities can often make more of
    a difference than a poverty program alone. We don’t want
    handouts for people who refuse to help themselves, and we
    certainly don’t want bailouts for banks that break the rules.”

    Thank you, God bless you, and may God bless these United

    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/06/transcript-obama-speech-at-dnc/#ixzz266yp9INk

  158. When I die, I get my own planet; it’s so biblical.

  159. Churches are specifically prohibited from interfering in government by their tax-exempt status. Yet, you seem to think it’s okay for a church group to deny citizens their rights based on a religious belief, if said group gets a law passed. I am gobsmacked by the cognitive dissonance inherent in those statements.
    You are correct. It seems we lack common ground to have a discussion.

  160. Sue: As Iris correctly pointed out, stations are licensed. Since there are effectively no more licenses, these stations’ responsibilities to serve their communities are strong.

    It is a rare event when a network affiliate refuses to broadcast a show on the prime-time schedule. These shows cost millions to produce, and are heavily promoted by the networks to gain the largest possible audience.

    So this is hardly a “they just ran out of time” question. The station replaced a show that features a positive portrayal of a gay married couple with a show that features Joey Fatone cooking family recipes that it is already running on a digital sub-carrier of its terrestrial channel (5.2) and is available on most cable systems in Utah. Nobody is missing out on this show because days are 24-hours long.

    This station does not want to present a positive portrayal of a community that makes up at least 5% of the people it is licensed to serve. This is no doubt because their parent company (a church) has spent and encouraged millions of dollars to be spent to convince the judicial system and electorate of California & Hawaii to deny civil rights to the very people positively portrayed in the program they’ve chosen not to run.

    Is all of this legal, yes, absolutely. Does it deserve our condemnation, I think so, but Sue, you seem to think all this is just fine.

  161. Iris: Okay this is the last time I will deal with this. 1) No one is interested in encroaching upon your beliefs, in fact you are becoming affronted with my explaining where we come from. If everone can worship or not, how they please (#9 of Articles of Faith). is that a problem? 2) the GDR is an example that LDS have no wish to push their beliefs on anyone, because it shows we respect a govt right to rule as they wish, and we won’t involve our religion in their govt., ergo, that is our belief in this country., if we uphold the laws written. 3) As citizens, if we choose to get together and voice our concerns about how the country is run, that is our right as well as yours. When a majority vote on a law and it is sucessful, by agreement , we all abide by it, regardless of what the losing group thinks. If we don’t have order, we all fall into chaos, like the French Revolution, or many other dark times in our world’s history.If you choose not to agree the to commandments are basic tenets, so be it.

  162. One of many recent surprises (to me at least) has been the discovery of what an empty shell Paul Ryan is. After all the talk about him being the intellectual powerhouse behind Republican fiscal policy, he seems to have revealed himself as just another double-talking politician, and not a very good one at that. I guess I thought there must have been something behind all the buzz; but alas, once again the conventional wisdom of the media has been proven false. One really has to watch and read carefully to discern who these people really are.

  163. I am happy to agree that Church and State be kept separate.

  164. Excellent questions, hot-shuz.

  165. Hi, Auntie Jean.

    I enjoyed your fantasy. :lol:


    It does bother me that a public servant chooses not to reveal his record providing proof of his respect for the laws of the land that he wishes to lead and uphold. That’s just one thing that bothers me about Rmoney.

    Secretive things are mostly evil, from what I can tell. There is no reason to conceal good. I can’t think of any. Greed and evil normally try to conceal. Things that happen in the dark are often appalling in the light.

    Our government claims national security and hides most of their actions from us. The press is designed to present the ‘peoples’ version of events and to distract us from real issues. How many investigative journalists have lost their jobs for doing their jobs over the past decade? Too many to count. Truth is often unpopular and mostly marginalized.

    Politics, or the American way, or whatever it is we practice and discuss and tout and debate, is a religion unto itself. It manifests great power, wealth, and human participation. Is it the first thing on your mind in the morning and the last thing before bed? Whatever has that place dominates your life. In that way we all practice our own unique religion – that other thing beside us that makes us whole and we carry with us throughout this journey. To think that that does not influence one’s decision making is naive at best.

    Putting faith in whatever entity or institution we do is active worship. I think the founders would want us to separate that from our laws. The doctrinal parts, and we’ve added untold numbers, harm the whole. They are part of an ideology, a religion. We are not free of it. It’s forced upon us. The whole of it we support by our continued participation. The footprint we make on the planet includes our own weight, whether we like it or not. We are killing children on the other side of the globe in the name of security. It’s evil and immoral, no matter how it’s described.

    Some claim we are a Christian nation. I really can’t see that. There may have been moral principles that align with those of Christians that set this thing in motion, but they do not uphold it now. How many would describe our policy as, ‘shrewd as serpents and harmless as doves’? I don’t think that’s our image in Pakistan, for one.

  166. Sorry, I cannot accept your underlying premise that our societies were founded on the ten commandments. The governments of western civilizations are founded for the most part on the governments of ancient Greece. Ancient Greece, as you know, worshipped many gods – certainly not the Abrahamic God of the Old Testament. Our founding fathers were members of the Enlightenment or the Age of Reason of the 18th century. Many, many societies in the world do not recognize the ten commandments. Morality is subjective, which is why we have laws.
    I am not sure why the GDR’s allowing the Mormon Church to build a temple should make me feel better about the secrecy of the temple. What am I missing? Does the GDR have some sort of proven track record of vetting religions? Couldn’t it just be they were paid very, very well?
    I am not disputing your right to believe how you wish. Once, however, those beliefs encroach upon my rights as a citizen to be free of your religious beliefs, then that is where I will push back.
    The goal of government is to serve all of the people, not just those who say our society is based on the 10 commandments.

  167. You’re very welcome, Dee!

    I have often wondered why Romney has so doggedly pursued the Presidency, for so many years – especially when it is so obvious that he finds it excruciatingly uncomfortable to relate to “strangers”, to have to try to get people to like him (or at least tolerate him), to be asked, endlessly, so many details about every facet of his life, by people he doesn’t even know, and so on…

    I don’t have the answer to that question. But Romney seems to be a man who has now found himself pulled in conflicting directions: Having to satisfy the demands of his wealthy donors; having to try to win at least some approval from all sides of a disastrously ideologically fractured GOP; having to remain faithful to the tenets of his Church, which I have no reason to think are not absolutely essential to him; and having to live up to what he feels is his family’s legacy in the political arena – even though he has publicly denied that his father ever “cared” about losing. (BTW, I find it hard to believe that anyone who held strong beliefs about what was right in governing, as I understand George Romney did, would not “care” about losing to someone whose political positions he found abhorrent.)

    And now he’s been saddled with Congressman Ryan, the Wisconsin darling, who is becoming more and more of a loose cannon – full of his own opinions, importance, fabrications, and bravado…

    I truly think that, at this point, Romney hardly knows what to do, and I have compassion for him if that is, indeed, the case. This would explain his many contradictions on virtually every issue – the “center” is being torn asunder. But, compassion or no, I certainly will not vote for someone who cannot demonstrate that he has a core of firm beliefs and values, and who cannot stand steady in any and every situation that comes his way. To put someone like that in a position of leadership, of a fractious, angry, and struggling country, in a tumultuous and dangerous world, would be an absolute disaster.


  168. Iris, I was responding to your comment that the government was brought into the LDS teachings. I did not say I want religion in government. That being said, churches can talk about whatever they want to talk about, and how government affects our lives as believers is not a topic that is out of bounds.

    I do not want a theocracy. If people are governed by a religious government, there is no one outside the government to be its conscience. It is crucial that they be separate.

  169. Seghull: The Constitution, First Amendment clearly states a separation of Church & State. We live in a Republic, not a theocracy.
    The problem, as the Founders of this country knew all too well, is that religion divides because there are many separate paths to God.
    I would think you would not want the government legislating your religion, please show the government the same courtesy.
    I am not very familiar with the Bible, but isn’t there a passage about rendering unto Caesar government stuff and rendering unto God religious stuff?

  170. Gato: Wow, thanks! That is why I am perplexed that he does not be more open about it. I supported Mitt in 2008, before he exited,, then I took a look at Obama, and have supported hin ever since. A lot of my mormon brethern are supporting him because of our common religion, and the good things he has done. His problem now, is that he has listened to too much right wing garbage, without doing the research, I should say my bretthern, and Mitt has morphed himself into what his handlers, think he should be. he will be judged by his desire to obtain the office but no desire to actually govern, like Deval Patrick said at the convention.

  171. Now I have a few questions for Mr. Romney:

    What in his tax returns is so terrible that he would endure constant speculation from pundits rather than release them? What will he do the next time the debt ceiling arrives? Does he think that a patriot hides money in tax-haven countries? Would he veto a bill that included a provision to tax venture capital fees as ordinary income? How will he lower the deficit while cutting taxes and increasing defense spending?

    How much force is necessary to make a rape “legitimate”? Why is an “individual mandate” for health insurance acceptable for Massachusetts residents but not for all Americans? When he changes Medicare to a voucher system, what will he do with an old person who shows up at the emergency room with a condition that is not covered by this purchased insurance?

    When he and/or the Israelis bomb Iran, will he also send American ground forces there? What more scientific evidence will it take for him to recognize global climate change? How can he blame our president for not accomplishing more when the leading Republicans in both houses of Congress stated that their primary goal was to limit him to a single term?

  172. Hi, Dee – I very much appreciate your presenting calm and thoughtful remarks about some of the practices and beliefs of the Mormon Church.

    I think that what troubles so many people is that Governor Romney is consistently unable, or – of more concern – unwilling, to speak as clearly about his faith as you do! I would hope that the majority of people are not looking to “judge”; they are simply looking to “know”.

    And anyone who is running for national office should expect that to be the case, and not assume that he will be permitted to be the exception, just because he doesn’t feel like telling us.

    As Romney is finding out, much to his apparent discomfort, things just don’t work that way. The amount of time and energy he has wasted justifying his secrecy is pitiful… And, frankly, cause for real concern, in my opinion.


  173. Iris, we are to “render under Caesar, what is Caesar’s…” If you did not realize, the laws of our societies first came from the 10 commandments. Most govt have basis for living and governing morally, so in a sense , you are right, there is no separation of church and state Joseph Smith, in 1840′s compiled what we call “The Articles of Faith”, a complilation of our church beliefs. #12 states: ” We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” You want to say we are trying underhandingly trying to take control of the country, you are sadly mistaken. As good citizens , is is not our duty and right to stand up for what we believe, as long as we do so under the constraints of the law? That goes for the 14 million LDS in all the countries of the world. In fact, back in the 80′s the GDR,though still under communist control, let us build a temple because they realized that we encourage our members to respect their various countries laws, and be productive citizens. That’s the way we roll.

  174. Iris, the Bible talks about government. See Romans 13.

  175. Thank you for your thoughts and your humor. From another nun, though the bus hasn’t ridden through the SF Bay Area yet.

  176. I have to say your explanation smacks of the intertwining of church and state. Just the fact that government and this country are brought into your church’s teachings tells me there is no separation of church and state in the Mormon leadership.

  177. **What you do speaks so loudly
    that I cannot hear what you say.**
    Ralph Waldo Emerson

    If you and yours have to use words to convince me that your actions are ok (think CA Prop 8 – ban on gay marriage – millions of dollars – busloads of LDS people), then words are just empty chatter. Not to mention those actions would seem to be a direct violation of the First Amendment separating church & state.

  178. TV stations have to get a license to broadcast over public airways. The key word being “public.” Airways belong to the people. There are standards that those requesting and holding a license must follow.
    Perhaps people could relate to the uneasiness those of us who are not part of the Mormon faith feel by imagining the Catholic Church buying up a broadcasting license and then deciding which programs would be broadcast over an ABC, CBS or NBC affiliate.
    What I am saying is first and foremost, owners of a license to broadcast have a responsibility to the public. In this country, we don’t give that responsibility to religions – not yet anyway.
    As for the Christian Science Monitor – an extremely dry, fact-filled, conservative newspaper which, imo, can stand on its own reporting merits. One already knows the lens through which it views the world, nevertheless, the reporting is excellent.
    Anyone can start a newspaper. There are only a certain number of broadcasting licenses available.

  179. Romney’s reticience in not baring his taxes is stupidity on his part. More than likely, it shows him paying a small amount of taxes and using deductions that would make him seem less likely that he feels our pains. He should have known that he would not get away with that, so why even run? There is no secret plan by LDS leaders to take over the country. We are taught this is a blessed land, and it is by corruption, moral decay, tyranny only, that it can be overrun. It will be by peopl upholding the underpinings of this freedom we all have to keep it together. Hence, Ezra taft benson’s expression of the LDS holding up the constitution. It is by the cooperation of good peole that do this, not necessarily the LDS. Romney is making his own troubles. There is no religious edicts that he hide his taxes. See his dad’s ex. of releasing 12 years of taxes when he ran. The only reason everyone is riding this secrecy bandwagon, is their lack of understanding about temple covenants, which we do not go into, because of the sacredness of them, and that alone.

  180. sue; i saend people to that site because there are a plethora of official statement alomg with everyday mormoms feeling on life as a LDS, like me. I dont have the time or space to be an apologist. But the church owns a lot, but what we do with our money is fantastic, whether in humanitarian sense, or membership sense. When positions are posted in the Deseret News, you see balanced articles. Don’t forget the comment sections, you see a diversity of opinions. All moneys are accounted for, and we have no paid clergy. We believe in being wise stewards. We don’t discuss politics over the pulpit, and the last comment on the current election in church, was one read from the handbook: VOTE. Nobody tells you who to vote for. At BYU, for example, I attended an educational seminar, last month, I was walking by a professors office and her door was open. I glanced and saw pinned to her bulletin board: ” I support Barack Obama, and I’m a mormon” Of course I had to interrupt her and told of my same feelings. No, there are not that many of of, but the point is we can and do stand where we please. Don’t buy the hype that we are some sort of lockstep minions.

  181. I don’t know the legalities of TV station ownership. I think they have to get a license, but they are privately owned, but I don’t really KNOW that.

    All TV stations have to decide which shows they will air and which they won’t. There are only 24 hours in a day, after all. If they are privately owned, we might THINK they should be airing something we want them to air, but they are free to make those choices.

  182. The Christian Science Monitor is a newspaper. It is owned by the Christian Science Church.

    I have never had Christian Scientists come to my door. They have Christian Science reading rooms that are open to everyone. I never heard of them going door to door, though.

  183. Sue:

    Does a church have a right to publish a newspaper? Of course it does. Does it have a right to own a television station? I’m not so sure, at least as long as these are scarce resources that are–at least in principle–owned by the public.

    Does a church have a responsibility to not use its massive wealth to buy up the scarce resources and then make decisions based on its religious beliefs that affect all of the people in the community? I think it does, and I think when religious institutions do that they are not being good citizens. When it is the largest newsmaker in the region, it simply cannot avoid covering itself. I contend that is why it bought the media in the first place.

    I’m actually arguing that point, since you claim you weren’t arguing a position in your previous comments perhaps you’d like to weigh in on my second paragraph.

  184. The Christian Science Monitor is another ‘church’ that forces itself onto your property…just as the Mormon’s do … I won’t touch either…I was raised in a cult-like religion, and I don’t need or want any church forcing their beliefs on me!

  185. Hi Congenial Gang,

    Sad testimonial stories here in M&H’s on the sorry state of Health Care in the U.S. Unfortunately, they are only microcosms of what is going on throughout the country. Very few of us can skip through life without any serious or God forbid, catastrophic illnesses affecting ourselves or our loved ones. For decades the Democrats have been trying to rectify or at least alleviate the problems while the Republicans sit back and twiddle their thumbs or strenuously block any constructive action. So here we are with what should be called the “Un-Well Care” or “Sick Care System”.

    Maybe we could use a little light-hearted levity to ease the tension before we jump back into the fray. Clint Eastwood isn’t the only one who can come up with a fantasy scenario. Here’s mine. Does this remind you of anyone?

    A large boulder served as a door into the cave. He shoved it aside and entered.
    He said, “Hi honey! I’m home!”
    She said, “How did your day go?”
    He said, “Great! The Koch brothers and I brought down a big Wooly Mammoth with our spears. The mastodon is FINALLY extinct. I brought you a huge chunk of Wooly Mammoth meat.”
    She said, “My hero!!!”

    Well, that is SOOOOOO Paleolithic. Maybe we should update it to the Fourteenth or Fifteenth Centuries.

    He comes clanking across the drawbridge of the castle with,
    He: “Hi Honey! I’m home!”
    She: “How did the joust go?
    He”: “Perfect! I knocked Sir Herman, Sir Donald, both of the Sir Ricks and Sir Newt off their high horses with my pike! And oh yeah, I slew a dragon by the side of the freeway on the way home.”
    She: My Knight in Shining Armor!!!”

    Oops! Better update to modern times.
    He: “Hi Honey! I’m home! I got the nomination!”
    She: “That’s nice, dear.”
    He: I think we should have a romantic celebration tonight. I brought home a bottle of sparkling lemonade. What’s for dinner?”
    She: Leftover Wooly Mammoth hash.”
    He: “Again?”
    She: “I froze most of it last time. Remember, we ARE still in the Ice Age.”
    He: “Well, I thought we could have a threesome. I’ll bring my latest stock portfolio.”
    She: “Maybe you could read the kids a bedtime story while I finish the ironing.”
    He: “OK. I’ll read them the NYSE stock quotes of the companies I raided today.”
    She: “That’ll put them to sleep in a hurry.”
    He: “You were right. The kids nodded right off and are out cold.”
    As he is popping the cork he says, “I’ll show you my IRA Summary. You’ll see! It’s bigger than ever!”
    She, yawning, says, “I’m really, really tired tonight.”
    He: “I’ll bring my Swiss and Cayman Island account statements too!”
    She: “Not tonight. I’ve got a migraine comin’ on.. Some other time.”

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam.

    Auntie Jean

  186. I am not arguing anything. I am simply pointing out that they are privately owned companies, they can write whatever the want, and nobody has to buy what they put out. That’s all. Oh, and last I heard, we still had the right to free speech.

  187. Sue:

    For it to be comparable by scale, I think the newspaper would have to be USA today, and you’d have to throw in the NBC Television Network to get the same effect, but yes.

    And there’s The Washington Times and UPI which are owned by the Unification Church.

    You know what? It’s all bad. Do you have any better argument than it must be OK because other people do it too?

  188. So then PBC, would you say that The Christian Science Monitor is a church telling the whole country what to read? Nobody has to buy a newspaper.

  189. The Church of Latter Day Saints (what the “official” Mormons prefer to be called) wields a great deal of influence in ways not traditionally associated with churches. Bonneville International is wholly owned by the church and operates broadcast facilities in Los Angeles, Phoenix, Seattle and Salt Lake City.

    The Salt Lake City NBC affiliate – KSL – which was recently in the news for declining to broadcast The New Normal, is one of the LDS broadcast properties. It also owns the Deseret News, the number two newspaper in the market.

    So here you have a church deciding what everyone in the community will see and read.

  190. I also prefer not to live in a theocracy. As our American founders knew, choosing any one religion as predominant would leave out all the people who believed differently. And there’s even more differences of belief now! It would be horrible!

  191. Carol: There is an alleged white horse prophecy that says the Constitution will be hanging by a thread and a Mormon will be elected president and save the country. i’ve heard the Mormon hierarchy denies this, but since they are so secretive, it’s hard to know what’s true and what isn’t.
    I prefer not to live in a theocracy.

  192. Sorry, meant to say Mormon church…..

  193. Not THE Mormon; the MormonS. Plural.

  194. I hadn’t heard that the Mormon wanted to take over the government, but it really doesn’t surprise me.

  195. Dee:
    I find it odd that you think a website can explain your religion’s secret meetings better than you can.
    I do care about keeping church and state separate. My concerns about your religion stems from their alleged desire to take over our government to fulfill some prophecy. That worries me deeply. When JFK ran, he assured the people of this country his first loyalty was to them and not to his church. I hear no similar assurances from Willard. His entire record as a businessman, as a governor, running the Olympics, his tax returns are all secret and hidden. Is that due to the tenets of his religion? There does seem to be a correlation.

  196. This is one of the best snarky liberal piece I’ve read. Love it. As much as I hated seeing a lot of old white folks at the RNC, I loved seeing some at the DNC. You and your kind are awesome lol :)

  197. Iris, go to mormon.org for more detail. It is not two separate places, in the sense of “church” the way you think of it. Temples are a place of education, and covenants with the Lord when you are more spiritually mature. As stated before, it is for adults, not kids. like college is not for a fifth grader.The fifth grader has some growing to do. I don’t know Mitt’s problem, it is not for me to judge, that is some the Lord will take care of , but his lies sadden me.

  198. Interesting, Dee. But, why would your religion have two groups of worshippers? Why are some worthy of temple and some not? What do you do in temple that makes it on a need to know basis only? Is Willard an example of people who allowed into the sacred temple?

  199. anonymous: as a LDS (mormon) I support Pres Obama. Anyone can come to our worship services, there is no secret there., they are held in a chapel, usually. You are referring to temple worship. After you have been a member for a year, which allows you time to understand the covenants made to the Lord in the temple, you are interviewed by your bishop and stake president or their counselors, to see if you will abide by the standards of a person who can attend the temple. The teaching in there are sacred, not secret. Temple worship is only for adults. The standards are not onerous, the Lord has set the standards and we agree to live by them, or we are are not ready for the temple. A temple is a dedicated bldg, so after the open house period (like the held earlier in Kansas City) anyone from toddlers to adults could attend, only those holding temple recommends can enter. My kids, went thru at least two around the country, and saw everything in there along with all other visitors. If you want to know more, go to mormon.org.

  200. Rah, Rah, team!
    Politics is religion to our culture.
    Let the best speech-maker win. :roll: When did we jump the shark?

    What”s next? Debates? Obama is good at campaigning, but awful at keeping his word. I voted Obama in 2008, but I am going to write-in Dr Paul this time. I really wanted to see the things Obama campaigned on actually become a part of his presidency. I wasn’t expecting the about face. Too bad. I’m really discouraged with the entire process. When is Harry Reid going to introduce the Audit the fed bill to the Senate floor? Supposedly he was gung ho for years, I’ve seen the clips. Last year’s partial audit revealed 16 Trillion of our currency given out at zero interest to special interest bankers. WTF? Who’s got their eye on these guys? We’re being robbed blind. Who’s prosecuting the LIBOR scandal criminals? Big money there.

    What’s a few trillion American between friends? :twisted:

    War is my biggest gripe. Support our troops is given to lip service. If we valued them, we’d bring them home and not abuse them. Nobody’s taking care of our veterans, either. These guys are committing suicide at a rate of one every 80 minutes. The enlisted are doing it one a day. Who is getting us out of war in other lands and why are we guarding opium and running drugs? When can we stop the drone murders and the terrorizing of entire countries and cultures? Who is tasked at slowing the police state? Nobody.

    These are the problems we should be dealing with. We’re all stuck in trivial pursuits while the PTB keep tightening the grip. This government isn’t working. And the CiC doesn’t seem to have a lot of positive impact or direction. I do think Obama better than a Rmoney choice. But that is only because he is such a kiss up that would lead to an acceleration of our collective demise. What a mess!

  201. HI, Terri – Just took a look at that interview… You know what makes me nuts about both Romney AND Ryan? Any time anyone has the chutzpah to ask either one of them a question requiring an actual answer, they absolutely ignore the question, and immediately launch into a patronizing LECTURE, “explaining” how Things Really Are. And, usually smirking, they always make sure to refer to the questioner by name, several times. Always sounds like, “You know, dear, I’m afraid you really don’t understand…” (How many women, upon hearing that phrase, have replied, at the top of their lungs, with, “I DON’T GIVE A GOOD G** D*** WHAT YOU THINK I UNDERSTAND! I WANT A DIVORCE!”)

    That’s how I’m feeling…

    Has anyone ever heard either one of them say anything remotely like, “That’s a very good point, and I can understand why you’re interested in that issue. I’d like to give you my point of view…” I DON’T THINK SO!

    Let me add, now that I’ve had my little tantrum, that there have been so many thoughtful, intelligent, and sometimes heartbreaking, posts here today… I am moved and yes, becoming more and more optimistic, as more and more people are “coming out of the woodwork” and sharing their responses to this ever-accelerating onslaught of blithering arrogance and condescension.

    Thanks to everyone!


  202. Just saw Norah O’Donnell try to get a straight answer out of Ryan. She tried her best but the weasel refused to give an honest answer.

  203. I think if Republicans would eat more a** they would be much happier

  204. VERY well said, Donna M. Crane…now add to that, public employees in some states who are penalized because the State they live in allows all government agencies to NOT pay into Social Security, because each has its own Government Pension. That is my situation…too bad, you say, but consider the fact that you weren’t advised of this until AFTER you had accepted the job, and for the most part, the employer themselves didn’t fully understand this as well. This denies me access to ALL of my husbands SS, should he go before me…(same applies to him, should I die first). Then realize that all of what I paid into SS is what is being penalized.
    I too am retired, and this past year I was in the hospital THREE times…only ONE of those visits was over $30,000, then I had serious surgery in Feb of 2012…and am still getting a bill for $1000. This was at one time, turned over to a collection agency AFTER I had just sent a payment. And don’t think the corporations that OWN the hospitals are one and the same. They demand even MORE, AFTER Medicare AND our health insurance paid their part.
    You try to explain to these people that you have such low income, that you cannot pay their full amount, but will pay what you know you can…that isn’t good enough for them…
    So Mr.s Romney & Ryan, keeo your FILTHY RICH HANDS off MY Medicare, Social Security and the Affordable Care Act! I <3 OBAMACARE! … It is already lowering my prescriptions by a huge amount…

    Its so pitiful watching grown, allegedly adult men, acting so childishly and showing their racism. And Mr. Eastwood…Go 7$%^ yourself!

  205. Go Skylar, go! Awesome post.

  206. Dear Republicans and everyone who hates Obama, Obamacare, government assistance of any kind and think you’re much smarter than government and can go it alone:
    This is to advise you that you no longer need to pay taxes in the USA. In the process, however, you are no longer entitled to use our educational system, and no longer will be defended by our military. You can stop using our roads, bridges, airports, and any means of transportation. We are sure you don’t need our fire or police protection either, since you think those programs are already over-funded, so you will be deleted from their consumer list. Also, we have removed your name from those eligible for our Medicare, Medicaid, disability, social security and every other entitlement available for those in need. The good news is you do not need to worry about anyone trying to get you to pay your fair share of taxes anymore. We realize you can handle your money better. Since Rob-Me got very rich handling his money by himself and not paying his fair share of taxes and can easily afford to do without the above entitlements, we realize that by voting for him, you will be able to do the same as well, by osmosis or whatever. So good luck to you!
    And when you have a crisis or just fall on your face within the first hour of being without these benefits, just let us know and we will be glad to allow you to be taxed once again because Democrats are forgiving and giving people.

  207. Donna,
    I was so interested to read your post and hear about your son’s situation. It is wonderful that the Affordable Care Act is helping him. What a relief it must be for all of you. Best of luck to your son and thanks for sharing his story.

  208. In addition to the wealthy people I know personally who are Rob-Me supporters, I can also name three right off-hand who are very wealthy and have voted democratic for at least the last two decades. One can almost understand why some Republicans would be for Rob-Me, for the tax cuts alone, but can someone explain to me why some of the poorest among us also vote Republican? I know one such person. She is in her 80′s, had worked as a waitress all her life and not paid into social security, so she has been on Medicaid for many, many years. My family used to give her odd jobs to help her out, and yet in her tiny apartment (back in the days when I still lived in that area) were Papa Bush and Baby Bush family photos all over her wall which, I think, means she contributed to these people! Gag me!! I don’t think she is the only poor Republican out there, so I’m just wondering what drives these people to be so ill-informed.

  209. An issue which everyone seems to be studiously ignoring is the whole Mormon thing. l I don’t care what your religion is as long as it is inclusive and not into big secrets. Islam? Misunderstood and used as a weapon. Christianity? Quite often the same? Judaism? Same, as are pretty much most religions. But their beliefs aren’t hidden, their places of worship are open to anyone. As his faith plays an important role in his life and has informed many of his life decisions (while he has conveniently forgotten the part about caring for others beyond your immediate and already rich circle of family and friends), I want to know what his faith will mean to him as president. Is that too much to want to know? I truly do not mean this as a rant against Mormonism, simply an inquiry.

  210. Where are the republican WMDs that cost my brothers and sisters 5,000 lives and 60,00 blinded and maimed? What about that trillion dollar off the bboks war?Now Willard wants to go to war with Iran. Another chicken hawk with zero military experience,Makes me puke!

  211. Couldn’t pass making a comment to Mr. Pete , who talked about how good the R/R Plan for Medicare will be. Romney/Ryan’s own surrogates have admitted that their Plan will, in fact, affect current Medicare recipients also. It will affect them because part of their plan also drastically slashes Medicaid which subsidizes Medicare Part B & D for millions of low income seniors. I am such a one, and currently my Medicare Part B ($110 monthly) is subsidized by Medicaid. It also subsidizes the payment of my Medicare Part D so that I can get my medications at an affordable cost. Seventy-three percent (73%) of people on Medicaid are seniors in nursing homes and/or seriously disabled. Medicaid subsidizes their nursing home care and without it they will be forced out of care and will either have to be taken care of at home by their children or be on the street. Most of their children are still working and many will still have children at home, and many will not have an extra room or the ability to stop everything to do constant and full-time care. My mother had Alzheimers, and although my Dad kept her at home as long as he could, she finally became unmanageable, and had to go into a nursing home. The nursing home took mom’s Social Security ($800) and my dad paid the rest. They had to wait until their savings and assets (exclusive of their home and one car) were almost totally depleted(down to under $8000) before Medicaid would kick in and pick up the cost that was above my mom’s social security income. The cost of the nursing home was $1800 (eventually up to $2300) and Medicaid took over what her Social Security didn’t cover. This was not a fancy nursing home, but 24/7 care for someone seriously physically/mentally disabled is not cheap. Originally we had her in a place for $1500 mo and the difference in the level of care and cleanliness was stark, so we moved her to a cleaner/better place…and my dad, paid the difference until Medicaid kicked in when his funds were depleted.

    Romney/Ryan Plan also raises the Medicare age to 67.

    The independent Congressional Budgeting Office says Romney/Ryan Plan will cause Medicare to be insolvent in 4 years…so what does Pete think his parents will do then. (Contrast that to Pres.Obama’s plan which CBO says will extend the life of Medicare by 8 years) CBO says Romney/Ryan Plan will cost seniors an estimated $6400 more a year.

    The voucher amount they have been talking, hasn’t been specified, but the amounts I have heard mentioned in some of their talks has been $6000-$8000 a year. If you are 67 years old, you will never get insurance coverage for that amount, because you will have a pre-existing condition called “age” and probably a few other conditions as well, and you will have to pay the difference. You can experiment with this now by seeing how much a policy would cost for a 67 year old today. It will be more like $800-$1200 a month($9600-$14400) .

    I retired to go home and care for my dad in 2005, at age 62 and the cost of my insurance at that job was $862 a month of which my boss paid most, and I paid the rest. I was healthy, fit, and had no pre-existing condition…but I was over 60. My boss was 3 years older and after he had a heart attack, they raised his insurance to over $1100 a month and doubled his deductible.

    Contrast that to my 40 year old son’s current situation. Lost his job 2 years ago, and with it, his insurance coverage. He is working now, but has no insurance at this job which pays less than his old one. He has chronic pancreatitis and high blood pressure, and when we tried to get him insurance through a private company (we checked 3) they wanted between $1200 and $1600 a month, and that “excluded” his pre-existing conditions, and had a $10,000 deductible. They would not even offer him insurance at any amount to includes his pre-existing conditions. He is currently on ObamaCares ACA Pre-Existing Condition Insurance Plan here in AZ at $188 a month. When he turns 44 it will go up to $203. He has $25 co-pays and it includes an RX plan so that he can get the medications that keeps him out of the hospital. His Generics are $3; brand names run $9 to $18. Why is it so cheap? Because it is a huge pool of insured & can negotiate drug prices in the same way the VA does. As far as I can see, it works just like my Medicare. He kept his same primary care physician, has seen 2 specialists, had 2 MRI’s and 2 X-ray studies of his pancreas, and blood tests. He has had good care, and we have yet to find a doctor who would not accept it.

    So to Pete, here’s the thing, unless you are dealing with Medicare already you probably don’t really understand what it covers, or what things are covered by the Medicaid subsidy to Medicare. It would behoove you to find out.

  212. 9Sue/seagull: read the post. We pay taxes quarterly, if needed. Our Cpa looks at my monthly statements and forecasts what our taxes should be and we are ready with no nasty surprises come the next year. But since we are employees of our s-corp, we also pay taxes out of our salary, like everyone else. Our Cpa finds those deductions most people cant utilize since we are a small business. The Obama admin has provided incentives that makes operating a business less onerous. We don’t expect customers to take care of us we all foot the bill of living in this country. We are willing to be taxed a little more to make up deficits.

  213. Bo, Gato, and Terri in NY, I watched Candy Crowley on CNN this morning. I concur that journalism malpractice has become rampant. The only time she had any follow up questions was when the side defending Obama was speaking. When the former secretary of commerce Gutierrez made the “ad nauseutum” statement that under President Obama, the deficit went up, there are more people on food stamps and unemployed, businesses are doing worse, she had no come back. Yes, all of our problems started January 2009 when President Obama took office.

    These journalists have no guts. They all have to answer to their bosses, who this time have decided that President Omama should go. Therefore, they are blatant in not questioning how the other side is characterizing the current administration. Just like the republicans have done, they seem to have forgotten that President Bush ever existed. How does one discuss the current size of the deficit without bringing up the two wars? They are mostly sweeping all the positive things President Obama has done under the rug. I for one am happy I did not have to hunt for insurance for my son when he turned 22 like I had to do for my daughter 5 years earlier. That is a good thing, that benefited me personnally. I am better off than I was 4 years ago, at least on that one thing. The Affordable Care Act is a good thing.

    Unfortunately for them, the candidate they are supporting is a hydra. His running mate is worse. They are simply not taking into account all the variables. President Obama brought us from the brink and I, for one, am grateful.

  214. Oh, sorry, Bo – I replied as if Romney had said that, about public discussion, when you very clearly indicated it was Ryan who did so. Guess I still consider them one organism, even though they are already starting to disagree about this and that. I think the GOP candidate has found himself with yet another wild hair, just as McCain did with his “pit bull with lipstick.” No lipstick on Ryan, yet…

    All your points about Ryan’s voting record are right on target.

    Maybe I need that “news media intervention” sooner, rather than later!


  215. Gato,
    You hit the nail on the head. I watched the Sunday shows too. I never saw so much double talk in my life. The two candidates twisted logic until my head was spinning. I was especially amazed by Paul Ryan’s poor performance. He is not ready for prime time. But David Gregory’s performance was the worst. Instead of challenging Romney and asking follow-up questions, he simply smiles and moves on. Journalist malpractice. We basically learned nothing from those interviews which were essentially fact free and served as free commercials for those two clowns.

  216. Hi, again, Bo – And, of course, if Romney “wants things to be discussed in public,” why doesn’t he DISCUSS THEM WHEN HE’S IN PUBLIC?

    Maybe I should add that to my side show barker rant: HE WON’T DISCUSS ANYTHING WHEN HE’S IN PUBLIC, BECAUSE HE WANTS THINGS TO BE DISCUSSED IN PUBLIC! He himself said that he knows everything he says is heard by millions of people… And, instead, he’s going to let Congress “discuss them”, so there won’t be any “back room deals”…?!? Congress…? Where everything that is done, when anything is, is the result of a “back room deal”?

    If I look at the way this craziness seems to be accumulating from these two candidates, I have to start believing that they have been assured by their handlers that, if they are loony enough, and contradictory enough, and lie enough, long enough and consistently enough, WE will eventually begin to think that WE are the crazy ones…

    I fervently hope and pray that your predictions about the ultimate good sense of this nation will prevail in the next weeks. You seem to be a reasonable and thoughtful soul, so I’m hopeful. I may have to have be the subject of a “news media intervention” in order to keep my bearings…!


  217. Ryan also said on a Sunday show that he and Willard don’t want to define the deductions that they’ll eliminate through tax reform because “they want those things to be discussed in public rather than make them subject to backroom deals”. What? How idiotic is that? In addition, if he wants things discussed in public why did he scuttle the Simpson-Bowles recommendations? How on earth did that make the deficit reduction committee’s proposal something “that was discussed in public rather than subject to backroom deals”. Both he and Romney are as phoney as a three-dollar bill and the majority of Americans will come to realize that in the next eight weeks.

  218. I admire your stamina. I just can’t stomach watching David Gregory…much less adding Romney to the mix. I get nauseous just thinking about it.

  219. Hi, Bo – Must admit I was wondering if any of the rest of the M&H fans were checking out the Sunday chats… I did see Romney; I “volunteered” to watch Meet the Press with my husband (which can sometimes like volunteering to have a root canal… Or maybe take part in an “illegitimate rape”… OK; maybe that latter is a little strong).

    Aside from Romney’s unfailing unwillingness to offer anything specific on anything, no matter how many times, in sequence, he is asked to do so (“Just exactly which tax loopholes would you eliminate, Governor?” “Well, what matters is the policy, and I have a plan…”), the other thing that really seemed ABSURD to me is his harping on how President Obama hasn’t provided “leadership”, and that he, Willard Mitt Romney, will LEAD… And simultaneously pointing out that it wouldn’t be up to HIM to fight for the repeal of Roe v. Wade; no, that would be up to the Supreme Court – which he will do his best to load up with faithful conservative justices, of course; that, he WOULD do. And, no, it wouldn’t be up to him to decide what loopholes to be cut; that would be up to the Congress… And so on.

    And HERE’S MY VERY FAVORITE!! Romney is “going to repeal Obamacare on day one,” of course. And what about all those people with pre-existing conditions who are now benefiting from the ACA, and the seniors whose prescription drug costs have gone down, thanks to same? Oh, no; they don’t have to worry, because Romney is going to KEEP those parts…


    And as for Representative Ryan… As has been pointed out, he’s not running against the Senator Obama of almost four years ago; he’s running against President Obama today. Fortunately, the more he opens his mouth, the more apparent it is that he is an egocentric and ambitious political climber, who is thanking his lucky stars that he got picked because he’s from Wisconsin, the Koch Brothers’ midwestern subsidiary. And I mean it. Really.


  220. Well, The MittWit and Lyin’ Ryan left the sheltering arms of FoxSnooze Sunday to appear on real news programs. The MittWit lucked out by drawing that sycophant David Gregory but he still came up short. Lyin’ Ryan got eviscerated by Norah O’Donnell and George Stephanopoulis. Look for them to retreat back into the FoxSnooze echo chamber for the next eight Sundays. These magpies aren’t ready for primetime!

  221. Re taxing the rich: I don’t think the argument is that taxing the wealthy will solve the financial crisis, are even bring in that much revenue. It is the fairness argument–it’s not fair for me, a working middle class citizen to pay 30 per cent in taxes while someone like Mitt Romney pays 13 per cent because his income is generated by his money. We all need to play by the same rules. And I still want to see his tax returns and know why he has a 100 million dollar IRA (and I’m not accusing his of cheating or doing anything illegal.)

  222. “All the Republicans have in their deck is a pair of jackasses, Dick Cheney and an empty chair.”


  223. Hmmm…. it looks like I signed on with two different names on two different computers. I am also seghull.

  224. Easier, I have a wonderful friend who teaches law at the U of Washington. He said they have graduates from law school who were hired, but the firms can’t use them, even thought they still want them, so they are paying them $60,000 to wait a year! Amazing!

  225. Dee,
    Who actually pays your taxes? You? Or is it incorporated into your cost of doing business, and ultimately paid by your clients?

  226. Gato, so agree with your post of 4:27 pm. Looking out solely for the bottom line, yes, that is the reason trickle down has not worked. Actually, it is beginning to burn them too because many companies are getting away from a business model that has worked forever, for the sake of saving a buck. What burns me up more than anything? Calling a company in the business of communicating with the public and having to speak to somebody in some parts of the world I am not able to understand because the company is trying to save a buck. What am I not getting? Shouldn’t such a company understand how vital it is to have satisfied customers? That seemed to have been lost. I went to a Sears outlet about two years ago and stood there for over 30 minutes with no help in sight. I did not return. That store is now closed. Companies have lost that which has worked for them, take care of their workers and provide good customer service, usually equate with success.

    In addition, corporations have become too political. Right now, they are sitting on piles of cash trying to influence this election. They want to dictate the terms of being in existence, they want no regulations whatsoever and so are trying to bring into office the people who might favor their various stances. A lot of companies have been delaying hiring workers until they can delay no more. For example, my newphew got a degree in mechanical engineering two years ago and has been doing odd jobs since. All of a sudden, he is in high demand. Machines are needing replacing you see, because they are at the end of their cycles. What is left of the manufacturing industry should be picking up but we are not seeing that yet because companies want to influence this election and are delaying making capital expenditures.

  227. Seghull, per your earlier post: I am a small businesswoman and we grossed three milllion last year. The thing you are forgetting is that most business people, have a good CPA if they are smart. We do, and having been in business 21 years, I rarely pay additional taxes because of all those lovely credits, deductions, etc.. Your logic is flawed, Iwe don’t worry if we are going to get a rise in taxes before we hire, or make large purchases. We look at our operatining expenses, pay taxes quarterly, when needed, and keep moving. Taxes don’t worry us as we make decisions, if we don’t we find ourselves outpaced by our competitors. The previous tax cuts that the Obama budget, have in fact helped in payroll taxes, both our own and employees, and the capital outlay expenses for new items purchased for our business. Obama/Biden 2012!

  228. I wish people would stop acting like taxing the rich is going to bankrupt/ destroy them. The way I understand the proposed taxation by the Dems, it will barely even affect them! Am I wrong about this?

  229. seghull: At the time the economy tanked, we’d aggressively lowered taxes under the Bush plan, including slashing capital gains taxes and deregulating financial institutions. So it’s not as if your ideas haven’t had a fair trial.

    The business cycles we’ve gone through since Reagan started pitching the very ideas that you are make a pretty clear argument against your theories.

    Reagan’s deregulation resulted in some pretty dramatic boom years and then the S&L crisis when everybody realized there really wasn’t any value behind the worthless paper they’d been selling. Bush41 started to clean up the mess, but wasn’t aggressive enough, and Clinton won the election.

    He got our budget under control, but drank the GOP kool-aid and signed the GOP sponsored repeal of Glass-Stegall. Bush43 continued the deregulation and tax-cuts for the rich.There was a recession, which required a stimulus package which Ryan wholeheartedly endorsed and voted for (stimulus is good business when a republican president proposes it). We then had a pretty nice boom cycle, because it can be extremely profitable when the government allows you to sell worthless things for big money.

    But then everybody again figured out that the paper was worthless the same way they did with the S&L crisis except this time there were far more worthless investments of a wider range of types.

    If cutting capital gains taxes and other taxes on the rich, and deregulation was effective in preventing a recession, it would have been effective for Bush43, McCain would have been elected because his economic adviser Phil Gramm (who wrote the repeal of Glass-Steagall) would be viewed as a god.

    Sorry, seghull, but a lot of us are old enough to remember your ideas being enacted and the economy tanking because of them, not once, but twice.

  230. The plan isn’t only to tax the rich. Saying so contradicts the admin’s platform but recent history when the admin offered up spending cuts but a deal was never reached. I understand it is easier to argue against a figment of your imagination than reality, but it’s ok for me to point it out. Policy can foster demand. See: previous bubbles. The uncertainty canard is ridiculous. If there are more people with buying power, it won’t matter as much that you may be taxed or regulated differently. Uncertainty can’t be done away with, but it can be used offensively in order to take profits (or for political reasons like pushing the galtian superhero small business owner myth or to tank the economy).

  231. A good business climate doesn’t necessarily mean lower taxes, but maybe unchanged taxes and less regulation. Knowing the demand is a function of marketing and market analysis. A wise business person makes an assessment of what is in demand at the time, before setting out to start a new business. It always involves risk, which is why the people with money are currently hanging onto it, rather than investing in business expansion or new ventures. They don’t know what is going to happen. It is uncertain, and they are not willing to risk their money until they know the outcomes.

  232. Seghull. Your example avoids what makes a better business climate than low taxes: demand. Your “plan” reduces broad middle class demand.

    Great post M&H!

  233. Great to hear from Auntie Jean again!!!

  234. If you raise taxes on the rich, there is a limit to how much money the government will make. Even if you tax them 100% it will only be a drop in the bucket as far as the debt is concerned.

    However, if you support business, even if taxes aren’t raised, the government will make more money. Here is how it works.

    Lets say I have a business and it makes $100 a year. I pay 10% in taxes, so I pay $10 a year. Let’s say that the business climate looks good, stable, and predictable, so I invest in my company and manage to raise the amount I make to $150 a year. Now I pay $15 to the government, and because I am a larger company, I had to hire 4 people, and they pay taxes too.

    At the same time, because the business climate looks good, other businesses were started, and they pay taxes, where there wasn’t even a business before, and their employees pay taxes as well.

    If the only plan is to tax the rich, the rich will not expand, not hire new people, not even replace people who resign, and not start new businesses. The amount of money to be collected will stagnate, and eventually decrease, instead of increase as it would in a good business climate.

  235. Hey, PBC – I hadn’t heard about Romney’s “amending” his tax returns to prove he was a Massachusetts resident. Sends a cold chill through my entire body and soul. It’s that bad, huh…?

    I have a long-time friend, member of the generation following mine, who had a scrappy and difficult childhood. He managed to overcome all of that, and, through his own hard-work as an adult, and because of our tax system, he is now, as a young man, more wealthy than he, or any of the rest of us, could have ever imagined. He has always been, far as I’ve seen, incredibly generous and even philanthropic with his wealth – and for that, I’ve long admired him.

    Recently, in the course of a conversation about something or other, he was mentioning some recent things he’d done, and said, “There’s no problem money can’t solve.” I have to say that I was alarmed, and that same cold chill ran through me… I wondered what was becoming of him…

    Are we being bamboozled by the media? I think they’re trying. Can everything be bought? I hope not.


  236. Hi, ‘Non – Here’s one thing that perplexes me about the supposed wonderfulness of the “trickle down” theory:

    I think that it well might have been a plausible one, when more companies were smaller, more of them privately-held, had closer relationships with their workers, and were not absolutely beholden to the rule “Profits for Ourselves and Our Shareholders First.”

    Since that is the mandate of almost any large multi-national corporation these days – and not necessarily by choice, but by the necessity to survive and thrive – it seems to me that the LAST THING they would want to do is let ANYTHING “trickle down” to anyone other than themselves and their shareholders. If they can save money by having to pay less to pay for their impact on the environment, they’re going to do it. If they can save money by laying off US workers and getting that work done in some third world country, they’re going to do it. If they can save money by using cheaper, maybe even toxic, materials in their product, they’re going to do it.

    That’s why, in my opinion, it is foolhardy to think that if you make things easier, and cheaper, for any corporation to do what it does, that corporation is going to pass on the extra savings to its workers. Of course it’s not going to; that extra money is going to go right to the officers of the corporation, and to the shareholders. If any CEO said to its shareholders, “Hey; we’ve just made a whole lot more money by not having to pay to clean up any of our toxic waste, and, since that’s the case, we’re going to use all that new revenue to raise the wages for our workers and hire more of them, right here in America”, every single investor with any “fiscal sense” would immediately pull out and put their funds elsewhere.

    Doesn’t that seem logical to you…? Makes sense to me. Whether or not it’s “moral” is a whole ‘nother issue…

    If there is one single way that “corporations are people, my friend”, it is that they will do everything they can to ensure their own survival. And, in my opinion, that is the ONLY way – and why they, like all the rest of us, most be required to follow some rules for living in a sane society.


  237. Mr. Pete: I don’t know if we’ve been bamboozled by the media. The Romney/Ryan camp aren’t real big on answering questions or giving us specifics. They don’t seem to trust the election process, and want to hold off telling us exactly what they’ll do until after the election. This echoes your idea that people vote for the shiniest objects; to a great extent you’re right.

    So we’re left with trusting them to somehow make this all work and “protect” Medicare, even when this means they will, if elected, suddenly do this 180. Ryan wants a voucher program; he’s spent most of his career pitching that. Romney was the architect of the plan that became the basis for Obamacare because the political system (both Republicans and Blue-Dog Democrats) was too conservative to ever endorse something like single-payer.

    In short, yes, I know what R/R is saying now, that they “won’t change a thing.” But I don’t trust them, and I’ve got good reason. Mitt won’t release his tax returns. He says we should trust his statements about them. The last time he did that, was when he was accused in Massachusetts of filing tax returns that claimed he wasn’t a MA resident. He swore up and down that his tax returns would prove that he was.

    But then he did a 180 and said that he had filed amended returns to change his residency. So I should trust him now about the 2009 returns?

    He will do or say anything to get elected, whether it be to trash his own health care plan in MA, to claim he won’t touch medicare (at least for the people on or soon to be on it), or to take statements by the president and cut sections out of them to make it appear he said the opposite of what he did.

    Yes, we know all about the current R/R medicare statements. The trouble is, we also know a whole lot more.

  238. Hi, Waialeale – I had to be careful to spell that correctly! Very much enjoyed your thoughtful remarks… And hope that I may present some slightly differing – or maybe more “additional” – thoughts on one of them, with an amount of respect equal to what you have displayed!

    You suggest that a Presidential candidate’s “religion, race, or socio-economic background” should play no part in his, or her, candidacy. I am not sure whether they ” should” or “should not”, but it seems quite apparent to me that they always do. I am old enough to remember, somewhat generally, the great “concern” about the fact that John Kennedy was a Catholic. What I DO remember clearly is that he addressed those concerns, spoke to them, and assured (at least enough of) the electorate that he would not govern on the basis of the dictates of the elders of his church.

    And, heaven knows, we still hear ENDLESS ” concern” – and outrage, and hate, and vitriol – about the fact that Obama once attended a church whose minister was a fire-breathing black liberationist; about the “fact” that Obama once met some uber-liberal (whose name escapes me at the moment) when he (Obama) was twelve years old; the endless, and still undead, assertions that he’s “not even a real American”, that he is a “secret Muslim”, that his birth certificate is a fraud, and on and on. THAT “discussion” seems to be fair game. And, like Kennedy, Obama has acknowledged those attacks, and has addressed them.

    Even as that goes on, we are not “permitted” to even ASK Romney much of anything about his money OR his faith. (He will tell us as much as he thinks we “need to know”, and not one thing more.) As you point out, I think the differences in their backgrounds – one having lived a life that many consider to have been somewhat unusual, the other a life equally unusual in the protected world of wealth and faith. Even Romney’s “foreign experience” – what we know of it – was spent living in a community of his brethren, in France – a country which is more similar to our own than it is different, in the context of world societies.

    (I must add that Romney’s, shall we say, frequent “lack of grace” on his recent European trip causes me great concern about how he might manage with leaders of cultures that are vastly different from ours… Let’s say, maybe, China, or India, or anywhere in the Middle East, other than Israel… Good lord; you say the wrong thing and insult the leaders of some countries, and not only might they throw a shoe in your face, they might hit the red button…)

    I am certainly not saying we should value anyone solely on the basis of his/her religion, race, or socio-economic background… But I think, when choosing someone to lead our nation, we should have at least some idea of how THEY feel those things have shaped their beliefs and core values, what those beliefs and values actually ARE, and how they might – or might not – influence their decision-making and the goals they will pursue.

    If we do not what has shaped the person, we can’t know who he or she is… And no blanket “slogan”, whether it’s “Forward” or “Believe in America”, should be accepted by the populace as sufficient.



  239. Mr. Blue–your tortured logic doesn’t work. Re taxes: when you’re in debt, do you decide to NOT take in more money? Our tax rates are the lowest in years; and we are not doing well. We have tried the GOP tax cutting, trickle down theories before–they do not work! We need to keep Medicare as it is, and take in more revenue (that’s right, taxes) if that’s what it takes. Our seniors need the health care they have worked all their lives for. Go back and look more carefully at the Ryan Medicare plan. It stinks.

  240. Hi Congenial Gang,

    Dear Helen and Margaret, thank you for your latest post in your inimitable style. I have followed your blog almost from its inception but haven’t commented in a long time. As some of the Old Timers may know, I am an avowed progressive. I have voted for Obama and intend to so again.

    I would like to respond to Rob in Burnsville, NC, 9/7, 2012 @ 9:39PM. It was a thoughtful comment. I was not aware of some of the opinions on both Romney and Theodore Roosevelt. I will have to look into them more thoroughly from various sources. I think Romney is probably a decent man but has lived a rather insulated life. Therefore, I feel his qualifications by virtue of his background, his education and experience do not qualify him for the highest office in the land. Conversely Obama’s experience, having lived in different parts of the country and the world, give him a broader perspective of people and their expectations of their government. Obama’s education is top drawer as a constitutional scholar and professor. His work as a community organizer gave him hands-on interacting experience as well as his tenure in the Senate. Religion, race or socio-economic background of either man is irrelevant in this day and age.

    I would like to remind everyone that when Obama took the oath of office, he became the President of the United State that includes ALL of the people; Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Independents, whatever. I think he has tried his best to live up to that vow despite having to hold his nose at times throughout the brickbats and roadblocks being thrown in his path.

    I do take some exception to Rob in Burnsville, NC’s appraisal of Theodore Roosevelt. Some of his domestic policies may have been well intentioned. I feel his foreign policies were misguided. Of course he had no way of knowing that his own imperialistic tendencies would eventually be instrumental in the build up of Japanese Imperialism and ultimately Pearl Harbor. (Yes, I do know he was awarded the Nobel Prize for mediating the peace between Japan and Russia.) I would refer you to the book, “Imperial Cruise, A Secret History of Empire and War” by James Bradley. The author is the son of one of the men who raised the American flag on Iwo Jimi. The book is quite well researched and documented.

    So before we either vilify or deify Roosevelt or any other president up to Mount Rushmore a la Cristo Redentor in the harbor of Rio de Janeiro, perhaps we should remember that we are all mortal products of our times with feet sometimes firmly planted in clay. That includes Washington, Jefferson and Lincoln.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam.

    Auntie Jean

  241. Too bad you have been bamboozled by your favorite media, ma’am! The R&R plan for seniors is: don’t touch what’s there; don’t force the next generation to change either, but give them the OPTION of doing medicare on their own instead of gov’t-managed. You did know that, right? Romney/Ryan will not FORCE a change, even for those under 55.
    This matters a lot to me as I have parents same age (and older) than you, and I’m heading into the senior years myself.
    The other thing that’s going to be interesting to watch is how our nation melts down over the next decade or two. Everybody talks about tax rates as if you can raise/lower rates and everyone will just go along like sheep. The issue isn’t rates, it’s revenue. Think of rates as prices, and revenue as income. When’s the last time you saw company earn even more when they raised prices on an already-overpriced product? Do you go out and buy more when prices go up… or when there’s a sale? That’s the common-sense it-really-works logic behind lowering tax rates. Proof that our rates (prices) are too high: gov’t income goes UP overall every time rates are cut. (The huge rebates of course don’t work: that’s like sending money to your customers. They will happily keep the money :) )
    Believe it or not, our gov’t policy is to assume that new regulations and pricing will not impact citizen actions in the least. That’s dumb, to put it simply.
    Me… I no longer care about elections. I believe we’ve got a majority that no longer vote for integrity or what’s good for the nation… they vote for whoever will promise more goodies. I.e., this is a nation that’s toast. It’s just not obvious yet.

  242. Right with you, Blue – With your comments about M&H’s wonderfulness AND about the underlying influences at play in this election, both nationally and locally.

    There is a real desperateness evidenced by the GOP and their funders, and your statement about the impending major demographic change is key, in my opinion. Those who hold immense power now, thanks in great part to the favorable laws passed by legislators they have funded, know damned well that by the time a next general election comes around, they will be in the minority – outnumbered by nonwhites, women who give a s***, the ever-more-long-lived seniors (may M&H and most of us be among them!!!), what’s left of the middle class, and others whose interests are non-aligned with the oligarchy.

    So… It is critical for them to “win” as much as they can this time around, so they will have four years to roll back as much of the “social contract” legislation that has accumulated over the past seventy-five years. They also know, full well, that it will take an enormous amount of time to re-enact everything they have rescinded, once they’ve done it.

    They have been working on voter disenfranchisement for some time now, and have had far too much “success”!. I am delighted to see how much support there is here for getting people registered and able to vote. In addition to working through a local party headquarters, you might – if you haven’t already – check out moveon.org’s new program working toward this end. We’ve got just under two months to make this happen!


  243. Helen, when I grow up I want to be just like you !!!! You might be a cranky old lady but you are blessed with intelligence and insight and the ability to use humor with utmost success to help people see the world of politics.

    Gotta say that poor old Ann with her expensive shoes, talking about eating tuna off an ironing board was ridiculous. She will never eat tuna off of anything but fine china served by staff !!! Their off shore accounts will keep them in high cotton for their lifetime and the lifetime of their children and grandchildren. What arrogance to refuse to disclose their tax returns. We all know you are lying and hiding so what’s the dif………..show us those returns Mitt !!!

    The following paragraph is a quote found on the Bernie Sanders(the Independent Senator from Vermont) website. This weekend on “Moyers & Company,” Bill Moyers talks with Bernie about the pressing issues facing the United States including the wealth and income gap, the disappearance of the middle class, attacks on Social Security, and the influence of big-money interests in American politics. In an extended preview, Bernie describes how “dialing for dollars” distorts our leaders’ perspectives on who they’re actually representing, and how money’s influence is transforming both our politics and society. “You’re looking at a nation with a grotesquely unequal distribution of wealth and income, tremendous economic power on Wall Street, and now added to all of that is big money interests — the billionaires and corporations now buying elections,” Sanders tells Bill. “I fear very much that if we don’t turn this around, we’re heading toward an oligarchic form of society.”

    Despite the fabulous speeches by Bill Clinton and Barack Obama there is still a very dangerous situation, below the radar, concerning Oligarchy. Do not forget that the Koch brothers have been trying to buy control of this country for a very long so that they can be the ones pulling the strings in their desired Oligarchic society. They and their pals were the ones responsible for Citizens United—- calling corporations people and allowing unlimited campaign contributions. Their chosen puppets this time are Romney and Ryan. The Koch Gang see this election as their last chance before the political spectrum changes. They are terrified. They hate ethnics and women and fear that this country will become an inclusive instead of an exclusive society. All of this is going on while R&R scream and yell about jobs and the deficit. R&R don’t care about jobs, they don’t care about the deficit. They care about themselves and are apparently willing to be the puppets of these very dangerous men…..it is all about me, myself and I, a Koch brother. They have to be stopped and the only way to do this is to vote Democratic. Geez Dems, don’t sit out this election like you did for the mid-terms. It matters who is in Congress, it matters who are elected as state judges because they can be appointed to the United States Supreme court and we saw what they did with Citizens United and it matters who wins the Presidency.

    When Romney was defeated after only one term as governor his approval rating was 32% which means, IF YOU DO THE ARITHMETIC, that his disapproval rating was 68%.

  244. this made my day

  245. I LOVE this site!!!!!!!!!

    Thanks Helen and Margaret!!!

    Grace McCauley


  246. Love your spunk! Keep it up Margaret and Helen……give them hell….they deserve it!!!

  247. “Democracy  is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” — Benjamin Franklin

    The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a
    living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.
    I too will be out getting people to register and vote. I will pick them up and take them to voting polls.
    M&H love your writings.
    I felt sorry for Clint he was an embarrassment to himself. How sad

  248. Excellent question Margaret. It’s impossible to keep up anymore.

    Helen, you rock!

  249. I was thrilled to see Sister Campbell speak at the Democratic convention. If nuns ran the church, I’d go back in a heartbeat. All my years as a Catholic allowed me to observe that it was mostly nuns who really made connections with and within the congregation. I am so proud of the Nuns on a Bus! I’d also love to see these nuns debate Romney…”Nuns vs. Romney-Ryan: Throwdown Nun Style!”

  250. I’m volunteering time at my local Obama campaign office this weekend. Wonder if I will see any other M&H fans there.

    OK. I admit it. I did try to watch at least some of the GOP convention but I kept falling asleep. Yes, I am old and that is usually what I do after working like a team of dogs from a very early age, but I couldn’t get a wink in when watching the Dems in Charlotte. And that says it all!

  251. I tried to watch the republicans last week—-but I got a rash. And a migraine.
    Then my hearing went wonky. I figured I was allergic to them so I had to step away. I felt so much better this week not having Thurston and Bad Lovey around.

  252. Ladies, I love you both. You are, as always, absolutely right.

  253. Helen, you do it every time! Here’s my letter to our local paper-

    “A man is known by the company he keeps,” (old proverb).

    Question: So who keeps Mitt company?
    Answer: Millionaires and Billionaires.

    As Mitt said at the Daytona 500, he didn’t know any of the drivers, but “I have some great friends who are NASCAR owners.” That’s the kind of guy he is, just plain folks like you and me.

    And he likes to hang out with billionaires who give him lots of money, like: Sheldon Edelson, personal wealth estimated at 24.9 billion, whose money comes from gambling casinos in China and Las Vegas; and Donald Trump, who inherited a fortune, lost it, went bankrupt and got rich again on gambling casinos; and the Koch brothers, Charles and David, who inherited their money too, but have built it into an even larger fortune in the oil and gas pipeline business with annual revenues of 98 billion; and scores of anonymous, wealthy donors to Mitt’s campaign who have contributed hundreds of millions of dollars in secret.
    Just plain folks, like Mitt.
    So who will Mitt be listening to? Whose calls will he be answering when his phone rings?
    The plutocrats of today; the elite who exert their power over the rest of us ordinary middle class folks. And Mitt will be beholden to them and obligated to serve their interests ahead of ours.
    Mitt says he never ran an ordinary business. Bain was not a retail or manufacturing business. Bain Capital was an investment house that speculated on buying and selling other companies. It was fabulously successful during the boom years of the 1990’s before the markets crashed. Mitt got out before that happened.
    Mitt amassed a personal fortune during those years. His IRA is estimated to be between 20 and 100 million dollars. (This puts it in the top 1/100th of 1 percent of all IRAs. (He still won’t release any more of his tax returns. There must be something so excruciatingly embarrassing and revealing in them that he has to hide from public scrutiny.)
    Page 2

    So he knows investing. But his goal was always to make as much money as possible for his clients even if that meant forcing companies into bankruptcy in order to make a profit. It had nothing to do with job creation as a motive.
    In contrast to Mitt, President Theodore Roosevelt also came from a privileged background of wealth and influence. But Roosevelt clearly stood for the common man and woman. In 1912 he proposed universal health insurance as a way to promote a strong and healthy nation. (No Mitt; no vouchers for T.R.). He fought the plutocrats of his day: John D. Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, J. P. Morgan, and so many others who exploited farmers and workers, fixed prices, and manipulated the markets for their personal wealth. T.R. broke up their monopolies, used government regulations to protect the ordinary worker, and he protected the land from uncontrolled development by establishing the national park system.
    He earned his place on Mt. Rushmore keeping company with Washington, Jefferson and Lincoln.
    And what about Mitt and the friends he keeps company with? Whose interests will Mitt serve first? Yours and mine? Not likely.
    With Mitt and his friends in control we’ll have the Kpch brother’s oil wells towering over Cape Hatteras Light House. The oil companies 4 billion dollar subsidies will grow even fatter. The Great Smokies will be clear cut for pulp mills and condominiums, and there will be casinos on every main street in the land.
    So don’t worry about a monument for Mitt. He’ll be smiling down from his monumental retreat in the Cayman Islands.
    Rob in Burnsville, NC

  254. Hey Stan,

    Great minds and all…. ;)

    I was writing my comment and should have checked before posting. Who knew? I love the M&H crowd!


  255. Sorry I dropped the second ‘L’, Sue (seghull).

    Here’s an in depth article by Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone. I link you to Page 2 of the story for the info you’re looking for.

    Greed and Debt: The True Story of Mitt Romney and Bain Capital

    Hope this helps.

    PEACE ~ Δ

  256. To Seghull
    Here is a GREAT explanation of How Romney and Bain Capitol worked:


  257. Hi Sue (seghul),

    I hope this video can help you to understand Mitt’s business. It started as a private equity firm and morphed into a corporate raider.

    Tony Soprano Explains Bain Capital

    *There’s a link in the video description to the original article for more info.

    PEACE ~ Δ

  258. Thanks for a great post as usual Helen and Margaret. You know like none other how to put a big smile to my face. We sure are in agreeement here. I can’t say I watched the Republican convention. Did not have the stomach to hear all the lies and half truths from the obtructionists. I thank you for biting the bullet for some of us. But the little I heard from the pundits lived up to my expectations. They are a scary bunch. To lie and cheat to win the office of the presidency at all costs devalues the office. It is so shameless. Liberals care. Give me a liberal, even one who has not sat in a church pew for years or never, I will still recognize somebody who cares. The “nun on the bus” insert was amazing. Thanks again!

  259. Sometimes Bain Capital saves businesses, and that saves the jobs of the workers and the communities they live in. And Romney has created jobs at places like Staples, so he is not a total villain. But Bain also has a darker side, and that’s what we’re referring to when we say the backs of the poor. It’s probably more accurate to say the backs of the middle class. Here’s how it works:

    A business is weak but not broke. It has debt obligation in the form of pensions and health care for retired employees. Bain borrows a lot of money (from its investors with deeper pockets than the troubled company) and buys the company and then assigns the new debt obligation to the company they borrowed money to buy.

    It then starts selling pieces of the company off to pay the interest on the newly-created debt (which winds up lining the pockets of the Bain investors wearing other hats.) When that doesn’t work any more because they’ve bled it dry, they bankrupt the company and the workers suddenly discover that they’ve structured the debt in such a way that Bain and their bankers and investors get paid and the workers don’t. Pensioners’ pension funds are discharged in bankruptcy to pay the preferred debt obligations that Bain imposed during the purchase.

    So the workers get fired, the retired workers get the shaft and the vultures at Bain get all or most of what they borrowed to buy it plus all the stuff they plundered from it on its way down.

  260. Nowhere else on Earth will anyone say it better than Helen…this is priceless!

  261. As a long-time atheist, I strongly believe Obama needs to have a big sign on thesdie of his bus, at his rallies, etc., that simply says: “Matthew 18:24″.

  262. Hi All,

    Could someone please explain to this dunderhead Republican how Romney made all this money “on the backs of the poor?” His company created thousands of jobs for people — jobs with reasonable pay that did not require special skills — jobs the poor could just get without needing to go to school or something first.

    I am genuinely asking, because I don’t understand that conclusion. So please spell it out clearly. No name-calling or generalizations, but the process of how he did that, step by step.

    (I did give you permission to call me dunderhead, so that is OK :-))

  263. Helen, I love you!

  264. Babs, I think you are lost. FoxNation, Breitbart and DickMorris.com are just down the hall. Please back up your truck and move on.

  265. I don’t know if you all are ill informed or just plain stupid, or maybe you’all live in an alternate universe. Stupid seems more logical. I mean really stupid!!

  266. The Dems gave a wonderful convention, poor old Reps. was an embarrassement. Lyin Ryan has no core or character and Romney is just a man who makes tons of money on the backs of the poor……No I am not worried about the election anymore, work hard for our beliefs, get out the vote and then congraulate Obama and Biden in November, oh yeah!

  267. I love this…

  268. You can sit. It’s ok lol!

  269. I stand corected . . . er, corrected. lol

  270. Bachmannorrhea.

  271. Unfortunately, a democratic version of Bachmannorhea (so named because primary symptoms include glassy eyes and running off at the mouth) has been found. Artur Davis is “patient zero”. It’s not considered fatal, though. It does cause a short-term party switch but mild cases may be reversible. Time will tell. [I hope Davis doesn't have a mild case, though. The republicans can have him as far as I'm concerned]

  272. Sorry for the typos.

  273. Helen, we had quite a party here in Charlotte this week. You’d have loved it! Seriously, I first noticed something during the Republican convention and have picked it up a couple of times since. . . Mitt Romney sometimes has that same vacant, slightly off-kilter stare that Michele Bachmann often displays. I’m starting to wonder if it’s some kind of virus. First the off-the-wall comments, then the fish-eye.

    Lordamercy, I hope there’s not a Democratic mutation out there somewhere.

  274. Gato,
    That is funny about the weather comment from Krauthammer on Fox news. This from a member of the party who planned their convention for Florida during hurricane season! I think most of us could see which party’s convention hsdvthe most enthusiasm. You can’t make this stuff up!

  275. Another enjoyable piece with delightful humor and great insight.

    The audiences do say everything, don’t they. The people in the hall in Charlotte represent the breadth and depth of the country. When I see them I see myself.

  276. Helen and Margaret, I stumbled across your site 4 years ago during Mr. Obama’s campaign and I have been an avid fan since. I don’t live in the US but I follow the politics (can’t get away from American politics no matter where you are on the planet) and I love how you rip those Republicans to shreds!! Keep up the good work!!…..Keep going strong!!

  277. Dear M&H, and commenters all –

    Just did a little experiment this evening, because I must be a sick puppy.

    My husband watches the Fox “Special Report”… I “let” him, and I hear it all, as well. So, this evening, I put a clock on it. The first FIFTEEN MINUTES of an hour-long “news” program consisted of an “interview” with Romney, during which Romney had the opportunity to basically gave his standard stump speech (for free, let us remember!); followed by some commentary by Bret (“The Haier”) Baier about how awful today’s jobs report is, and how disappointed all the Democrats are (not here); and then some additional “interviews” with Iowa Republicans about what they thought about the conventions.

    Can’t believe Solyndra didn’t come up… Maybe it will, before the end of the program.

    Ah, yes… “Fair and Balanced”…

    And, of course, the WONDERFUL recent comment by the Krauthammer, which you reminded us of, Helen, that the Democrats “knew what the weather would be months ahead of time”, and only changed the venue for the last evening because they were afraid to let the country see so many empty seats… Tell that to the people who were still on the waiting list to get in, since the place was evidently bloody sold out…

    And all The Baier said, in response to that remark, was, “As always, thank you, Charles…” Wouldn’t have been wonderful if he’d said something like, “Are you kidding me, Charles? How could anybody have known what the weather would be on a particular Thursday night, in Charlotte, months ahead of time?”

    Rock on, M&H. For a lot of us, you are an important tether to sanity!


  278. First time here and laughed hysterically.
    Found out about you on Twitter.

  279. Awesome Day….President Obama’s up in the polls (Romney don’t let that bounce hit you on the ass on its way up) and great added bonus, Margaret and Helen’s Blog in my email. Great Day!

  280. Helen, I mostly disagree with all you say, but I read you to keep my vegan blood pressure from bottoming out. Today, though, I had to tell you how much I laughed at the Nascar Race line. Funny is funny, no matter who says it! Loved it!

  281. Absolutely telling it like it is!

  282. You ladies always make me giggle. But you tell the truth and it’s so refreshing when there are so many people who keep trying to lie even after they’ve been caught in their lies – republicans, for the most part.

    Thank you for summing up how I felt about the conventions this year.

  283. Another great post M&H. Keep ‘em comin’.

    And Margaret, this one’s for you:

    Zombie Reagan Raised From Grave To Lead GOP

    PEACE ~ Δ

  284. God Bless both of you fine, outspoken, and smart ladies. Despite all of the smoke and mirrors that are associated with politics, you see clearly what is actually happening.

    Mitt Witt actually wears Magical Underwear that the Mormon Church has blessed.

    I love your comments of If I’m Ryan, I’m Lyin’.

    I think I might just bake a pie. I really mean it.


  285. love your blog! I’m sending this one along to two people who I know will love it as well! Right on the money, gals! Keep it up, with voter suppression we need all the help we can get!!!

  286. I sat here reading this, smiling, as I always do but when I read Margret’s reply I laughed out loud. I love these two old babes! You go GIrls!!!!!

  287. Love your blog. Love your tweets too. Rock on M&H. FIRED UP AND READY TO GO Call, donate, register VOTE!

  288. Wow! you two are geniuses! This is not only amazingly accurate but so darned funny! The Regan comeback was priceless…..you have a new fan ladies!

  289. Ah M & H
    Again a wonderful post. If only more people would read this andrealize what is happening to them personally, I am sure there would not even be a question about who is best to lead.
    Thank you so much for all you do……

  290. That was hilarious, Helen, LOVE it!! I like that you see it like it is and call it bullsh**!

  291. Another excellent blog post, M & H. Thank you. Also, Jimmy Carter was there, too. In spirit and by computer but he was there. And we love that man but currently we’re loving Barack and Bill Clinton most!

  292. “When I want an unbiased, fair and balanced weather forecast for the next few months, I tune into Fox News for weather on the hour, every hour or in this case on the month, every month.”


  293. LOL!!!! *wipes tears of joyous gratitude out of eyes* You all are the best. Thanks for writing the truth.

    Oh and uh, yes, Reagan is dead.

  294. Helen and Margaret, the question is not why anyone would want your opinion, but why they would need anyone else’s. Love your column, ladies!

  295. Had to chuckle at this, “They even knew that if the candidate’s wife was going to make the case that you understand the hardships of everyday Americans; you might want to make the case wearing shoes that cost less than most people’s mortgage payment.”

  296. Helen: You are one of my very favorite bloggers. No wonder that reporter called you up – you got a lot to say and many, many people love the way you say it. That line about the Democrats having two living presidents to call on was mastefrul. Of course, the Republicans do as well. It’s just that W screwed up so bad even Pappy Bush dare not show his face at the convention. Who thought it was a good idea to give the presidency to failed businesman W (oops, I meant Dick Greedypants Cheney), by SCOTUS appointing him in 2000 and Diebold appointing him in 2004? Maybe the no competitive bids for two wars buddies of theirs, Wall Street and the home mortgage industry. Now Regressives have to promote an empty suit who has to have his wife tell us he is human. After all, doesn’t everyone smash their kids’ faces into their food for giggles at the dinner table?

    Margaret: The best 5 words I’ve read all year. You rock.

  297. Interesting that the only person in both conventions to give W a pat on the back was Clinton. The Republicans seem to have magically erased him from their collective memory, leaving Obama as the evil villain in America’s financial crisis. The GOP convention was a snooze fest, but at least they had the good sense to magically erase the Alaskan lunatic from their bff’s as well. The Democratic convention, on the other hand, was inspiring, exciting, exhilarating, compassionate, fun, and informative. They had Ann, Mittens, and Clint “Talks to Chairs” Eastwood. We had the beautiful and brilliant, First Lady, the most inspirational speaker in the world, Bill Clinton, and the awe-inspiring Gabby Giffords. There is simply no contest in this contest.

  298. Hey, Bo – You’re no slouch at cranky and funny, yourself! Way to go…!


  299. High school kids taking government courses had to stay up for the speeches, even though it was way past their bedtime. (The kid has to catch a bus at 6:40 a.m.!)

    I told the kid I wasn’t going to watch the Republican speeches because there would be nothing concrete in what they’re offering. Read my lips, kid, nothing concrete.

  300. I’m with you in sympathy for the gop. Your list of the reasons why is a good start. However, they have many, many more hardships as well.
    Before they could start their convention, they had to exorcise the auditorium of the ghosts of GDumbya Bush, Darth Cheney and that dimwitted former half-term governor from Alaska. And just imagine the effort it took for them to keep up the pretense that their candidates actually have a plan that wouldn’t increase the deficit or hasten the insolvency of Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.
    Yup. I really feel sorry for the gop. If it weren’t for bad luck, they’d have no luck at all.

  301. Of course, the Republicans do have George Bush Sr. and Shrub. I really thought they treated Dubya a little shabbily really, seeing as how he is their creature.

  302. Love you ladies. Thought the democrats did a great job with their convention now it’s time for all of us to get busy and do everything we can to re-elect President Obama! Fired up and ready to go!

  303. Beloved Cranky Old Ladies (oops, Margaret, maybe you’re NOT cranky!) –


    And to all… How’s this for a bumper sticker?

    OBAMA/BIDEN 2012

    I’m going to see if I can get one made up at http://www.cafepress.com.

    Stay cranky, Ladies and Gentlemen! Why shouldn’t we be?


  304. Brilliant, as usual. And funny too.

  305. Love her….she did it again!!!!

    Victoria Morris Sent from my HTC Inspire™ 4G on AT&T

  306. Helen and Margaret, You are two really smart, see through the Bulls**t, ladies and I admire you for that. Since I read, enjoy and agree with your posts, I must be smart, too. However, are we sure the other 98% are? Write louder and encourage your readers to edify their friends.
    Especially remind them that the repeal of the Glass-Segal bill was in large part responsible for our current financial woes and the that the Republicans want to remove MORE government regulations!

  307. You think that suit was only $3000? I’m guessing his underwear cost more than that.

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