Posted by: Helen Philpot | December 16, 2011

Jesus is the reason for the season…

Margaret, I was going to send you a Happy Holiday wish, but then I watched that debate out of Iowa.  It just took the Merry out of my Christmas.   The Republican Party has more hate and ignorance in its Primary than the entire line-up of Real Housewives of Pick Any City on Bravo.  Let me just go down the line-up for you…

Michele Bachman is crazy.  Just ask the voices in her head.  But you’ve got to give her credit for trying.  No money.  No staff.   No clue.  And yet she’s still out there plugging away.  Bless her heart.

And then there’s that guy from Oz… I mean Texas.    No brains.  No heart.  No Friends of Dorothy.    Rick Perry hates gays.  Just ask him.  He likes Tim Tebow a little too much for my comfort, but I’m pretty sure that’s just a Sunday morning quarterback kind of thing.  You’ve got to give him credit too, however.  He’s trying.    There’s something wrong in this country when gays can serve openly in the military but Perry can’t seem to get above ten percent in the polls with all those God-fearing, good Republicans out there in Iowa.

Which brings us to that pizza guy.  When everyone went soft on Perry, it looked like Herman Cain would rise like pizza dough to the occasion – something that tends to get him in trouble..   Now that Herman has what we used to call the wandering eye – and not the kind that can be corrected with glasses. He’s got the kind that eventually catches up to you when you run for political office.  (But speaking of glasses, I really liked the pair Barbara was wearing on her 10 Most Fascinating People of 2011. Of course when Donald Trump glowed on, I thought maybe it was a rerun from 1984. But that’s another story for another time.)  Herman Cain was on the show and that’s who I want to talk about. Before he sang Barbara a little song, ole’ Herman told her he couldn’t prove it, but he was pretty sure he was attacked by the media because he was a black Republican. Well, he’s half right. Republicans don’t really like blacks. In fact that political party is about as diverse and tolerant as an audience at a Celtic Women’s concert.  But again that’s another story.   As a Black Republican, Cain’s pizza was never getting out of the box.  But the media didn’t report on that.  What they did report on was the other problem with Cain – the one that had nothing to do with the color of his skin.   It had to do with how his pepperoni kept landing in places it didn’t belong. Honestly though, with as much time as the Republican party tries to get involved with a woman’s uterus, you have to wonder why a little touchy-feely is so offensive to them.  But about that black thing.   I can’t figure it out either.

So Cain got ousted and in walked Newton, the whitest and meanest politician north, south, east and west of the Pecos.  I hear he shoots his ex-wives when they get out of line or go into the hospital for cancer treatment.  But again, another story for another time.  Newton Leroy Gingrich grew up Lutheran became a Southern Baptist, and eventually converted to Catholicism.  Now that’s a whole lot of religion packed into one person.   No wonder the Republicans like him so much.  But Newt is exactly what those Tea Party Republicans say they don’t want – a fat cat politician.  The only people who made more money screwing the government than Newt were Goldman and his son-in-law Sachs – two Jews.  Go figure.   Newt doesn’t want to be President.  He wants to sell books and give speeches.   Honestly. Can we just move on? Republicans can’t elect Newt because they can’t raise taxes enough to afford his salary.

And so you have Willard Mitt Romney.  Both of them.  The Republicans really, really, really want to vote for the Romney who is tough on immigration, against abortion and can’t stand Obamacare.   Unfortunately they have an issue voting for the Romney who is soft on immigration, votes pro-choice and believes in universal healthcare.   And we can’t forget about that Mormon thing.   Is he a Christian or isn’t he?  Maybe one is and one isn’t.  Maybe he could borrow one of Newt’s religions.

But thank goodness there’s always Jon Huntsman.  He’s still in it, right?  Someone should research that.  Is he still in it?   Oh, but wait.  Huntsman is a Mormon too.  Darn those religious prerequisites.  Thank goodness Newt still has one religion to spare.

So really that just leaves us with Rick Santorum and Ron Paul.   One is fascinated with a dog having sex with a man and the other looks like a dog had sex with a man.  You know.  I really don’t have a problem with that.

Shame on me.   That was cruel.   A woman with an ass as fat as mine, shouldn’t be making fun of the way people look.  Mr. Paul, I’m sorry.  I went for a laugh and that was wrong of me.  In truth, you’re the guy who scares me the least.  Probably because you have no chance of winning and you’re the candidate most likely to run as a third-party candidate if you don’t win the GOP nomination.  That could be detrimental to the likely Republican nominee if you pull too much support from Republican voters who can’t decide between Willard Mitt Romney or Willard Mormon Romney.

I guess it’s  Merry Christmas after all, Margaret.   And a Happy New Year.   Thanks for stopping by.

And welcome home to our returning troops.   We’re proud of you.   I mean it really.

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Responses

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  3. “Anonymous” quoted here:

    “Understood, I will take that as a no…your surrender is accepted.”

    Can you read? I said I had to step away for a bit, which turned out to be a couple of weeks. We have lives, and those do not always include addressing every petty comment made on an obscure blog. I hate to generalize, but I have found that this is the typical reaction of the Conservative mindset, although not all of those who call themselves conservative (read that, Anonymous and comprehend it, if you can). Only they and their concerns are of any value, and the world must revolve around the Conservative agenda; all else is secondary.
    Yours is the reaction of a child, really more reminiscent of a small dog barking away at the arrival of the postman, then celebrating his triumph when the postman goes on about his work. Yours was not the reply of a serious adult.

    “BTW you thinking the child should have known that at the age of 7 is pretty dam(laugh it up Cynthia) weak.”

    Can you read? I didn’t say they should have “known” at age seven, I said they were being taught critical thinking. Try to concentrate.

    “Another truth. Liberals are really afraid to say yes or no to a direct question. I guess that whole being accountable frightens them more than I realized.”

    Again with the childish reactions. Some questions are more complex than “yes or no”. Adults understand this.

    Here is the problem with someone like you. You really have no fresh insights, nothing new to bring to the discussion, no truly useful dialogue to contribute. You have only what Rush, Hannity, Savage and Miller have told you and you regurgitate that without checking to see if it’s true or valid. Anytime your concepts are criticized or debunked you react with insults, then when your target responds in kind you withdraw to the corner yelping about “Liberals are so mean with their personal attacks” mantra.

    Grow up, think for yourself and perhaps then you will have something to contribute.
    Now, I predict your only response will be to compose another “Liberals are mean, and they run away!” bit of childishness. I may or may not check back to see if I’m right; again, life calls. You might try to get one.

  4. THANK YOU GW BUSH!!! We are no longer a Super Power because you started TWO WARS (Iraq was started with lies) WHICH DRAINED OUR ECONOMY and along with Tax Cuts and de-regulation = created a financial crisis along the longs of the GREAT DEPRESSION! Thankfully, President Obama kept us out of the Great Depression range.

    http://www.alternet.org/story/153643/thanks_to_our_military_debacles_in_iraq_and_afghanistan%2C_america%27s_%27superpower%27_status_has_officially_ended?akid=8084.294211.9XncTn&rd=1&t=8

    Thanks to Our Military Debacles in Iraq and Afghanistan, America’s ‘Superpower’ Status Has Officially Ended
    The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have not only drained American treasure, but exposed the relative helplessness of the “sole superpower.”

  5. This is why we own guns in our homes. Liberal family = dead mom and dead baby. Well done dispatcher, well done mom.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/04/mom-kills-intruder_n_1183336.html?ncid=webmail1

  6. delurkergurl, Could you show any evidence that conclusively shows that the increased pay for CEO’s came from taking away pay from thousands of others? Any documentation at all or us this a wild guess on your part. Bank accounts that show transactions, a paper trail of any kind? Anything?

  7. Anonymous is on the record for siding with the jihadists.

    http://www.pointoflaw.com/archives/2012/01/berkeley-anti-israel-protest-litigation.php

    (Naturally Mr. Beck twisted the story to suit his purpose)

  8. How can it be that the median income has declined so much? CEO pay jumped 26% last year. For every CEO that jumped so much in pay, THOUSANDS of other must have declined to offset them. It seems income is trickling UP. Who’d have thought that possible?

  9. This is hard to believe even coming from the left. Can anyone else not see where this can lead to? A clear assault being given free speech protection. This in my opinion sets a terrible precedent.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ca-judge-deems-ramming-jewish-woman-with-shopping-cart-free-speech/

  10. America’s longest economic recession since WWII, ended in June of 2009. The recession’s end means that our economy has allegedly been in recovery mode since July of 2009, more than two and a half years.

    If we are in recovery, why have American’s incomes dropped more during the recovery than they did in the recession? The facts are clear.

    Personal incomes fell during the recession by 3.2%.

    During the recovery (since July 2009), personal incomes have fallen an additional 6.7%.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/personal-incomes-fall-more-during-recovery-than-during-the-recession/

  11. JJ- the problem with Boddy’s thesis is that those stinkers didn’t just sneak into top business posts. There were shifts in the attitudes of the general populace which set the stage for some of those rotten folks to get where they did,
    The elevation of the competitive-entrepreneur-spirit into something
    well beyond a personality type , something to be universally emulated ,in the 80s contributed. The Protestant work ethic we all love to spout about became enmeshed with economic neoliberal fantasies, the resurgence of trickle-down ideas, with a strange dash of “ownership” society sprinkled on top.
    We truly started holding those folks up as the be-all, end-all of the American dream.
    At least until they bit us all in the collective butt.
    If we don’t get honest about ALL of us presiding over our own messes we won’t solve any of this stuff. I agree that there have been years and years of feeling like no one is listening as these creeps got where they did and Phil Gramm et al handing them the ability to do what they did/do but in the end we-the-people let it happen.
    James @7:29- sounds good but not true.
    Centrist philosophy of Obama has it’s failings but not in psychopathy.
    PFesser-
    This post and some links in it to a wide ranging set of discussions about Paul I think you’ll find interesting. Paul does not float my boat at all but the conversations springing up around his stances are interesting- to say the least.

    http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2012/01/no-stoller-and-sullivan-there-is-no.html

  12. Donald has no intention of running. He is getting free publicity for his apprentice show. You will take note that all his appearances he mentions the show and how he will make a decision based on something going on with the show.

  13. Change company to government and that sounds like our favorite community organizer, President Obama.

  14. Is this fellow talking about the Republican Presidential Candidates?

    http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/758428/why_%27corporate_psychopaths%27_may_really_be_to_blame_for_the_recession/#paragraph5

    Boddy argues in a recent issue of the Journal of Business Ethics, such people are “extraordinarily cold, much more calculating and ruthless towards others than most people are and therefore a menace to the companies they work for and to society.”

    How do people with such obvious personality flaws make it to the top of seemingly successful corporations? Boddy says psychopaths take advantage of the “relative chaotic nature of the modern corporation,” including “rapid change, constant renewal” and high turnover of “key personnel.” Such circumstances allow them to ascend through a combination of “charm” and “charisma,” which makes “their behaviour invisible” and “makes them appear normal and even to be ideal leaders.”

    According to Bloomberg News, Boddy says their personalities also helped them destroy the economy: Until the end of the 20th Century, everything was going smoothly — companies were “stable and slow to change” — until these guys elbowed their way in.

  15. The Donald says he is ready to run independent. This might be fun.

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0112/71000.html

  16. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=teabagee

  17. I just figure JJ is the teabaggee

  18. Farsigh..party of hate and personal attacks…holding up well thanks for your efforts to help prove me right.

  19. Hmmm… Posting is problematical. Maybe this will work. http://bobcesca.com/blog-archives/2012/01/governor-scott-walkers-failure-is-nearly-complete.html

  20. Maybe a richly deserved happy ending will be in order!

  21. What both amuses and confuses me is why this one particular troll who is so incredibly gifted at manipulating the conversation is allowed to set the tone of this forum. Additionally, his compulsive need to get attention from those he holds in such complete contempt is incredibly tiresome and speaks volumes to the type of person he is. I think the most descriptive and accurate label for his behavior in this forum is: pathetic and desperate attention whore. I’ve now earned my place in his tired and empty platitudes. Wait, wait, wait… I’ve got it now; he’s a platitudinarian – someone who indulges in empty remarks made as if they are important. If you feel a need to feed this troll, just call him Plati for short or Padaw after the above label. No matter what you do, you won’t make it suck to be him anymore than it already does.

    Remember, once the troll goes into broken record mode, feeding him becomes wearisome and wastes time better spent on more worthy pursuits!!! I think I will now follow my own advice.

  22. yes..and even more when you factor in the price of used condoms in China.

  23. The daily Newt!!

    http://juanitajean.com/2012/01/03/and-by-the-way/

    BTW: The cost of Iraq is going to be 3 Trillion when you factor in the disabilities and medical expenses which are afflicting our young heroes.
    (At some point, we actually need to factor in the cost of wars and the injuries which they create.)

  24. Jo-Gina, we can’t pay our bills kiddo. How compassionate will you be feeling when you have to tell all the poor and old people that there is nothing left to give them? Better to pay what we can afford rather than spending ourselves into insolvency. What story will you tell your kids when they are born and have the first 10 years of their salary going to pay for your social programs today?Check out my video on Dec 31st. That is the future Obama is promising you.

  25. FACTS ARE FACTS!!! Just as you ask. Sometimes the truth hurts.

    Fact: Germany auto workers make more money and the company makes more profit because they have a strong union. The US could learn something if we took the time to check it out. Quality products are made with quality workers who are paid a livable wage. (They could even afford to buy the product they are making – imagine that.)

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/28/1049409/-German-auto-manufacturers-high-profits-and-high-pay-show-why-US-labor-laws-need-to-be-stronger

    Who you wanting as Republican Presidential Candidate? Seems like you are pushing Ron Paul since Newt folded.

  26. Really Jo-Gina? Now you are just sounding desperate and pathetic. More and more like a Jerry Springer episode with each new post.

  27. Interesting: Red States have higher divorce rates than Blue States!!
    It must be those Republican family values at work or DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO.

    http://conservative-truths.com/2012/01/02/there-is-a-higher-rate-of-divorce-in-conservative-states-than-in-liberal-states/

  28. While not quite as good as my previous RP video, still a good one.

  29. Exciting News: It looks like D for make a third party run for the Presidency.

    http://juanitajean.com/2012/01/03/because-if-theres-one-thing-we-lack-in-texas-its-crazy-people/

    Trump said that he’s “aware and flattered” by his “supporters” filing this paperwork in Texas. Y’all, the odds of Donald Trump having any supporters in Texas is about the same as the Astros winning the pennant. On the other hand, the odds of some Democrats thinking this is funny are pretty damn good.

    Trump says that he’s still considering a third-party run “if the Republicans nominate a candidate who cannot defeat Obama.”

    Go on ahead and mark me in the column of Democrats who think this is funny. I didn’t file the paperwork, but I’ll sure sign the petition and notarize it for free.

    I think this is shaping into my favorite political season ever.

    Thank You Juanita Jean for the wonderful breaking news!

  30. GW Bush: A movie – Interesting stuff!!

    http://www.documentarywire.com/bush-family-fortunes

    Which of the Republican Presidential Candidates do you support? Iowa votes today!!!! The Biggest Loser also starts today!! Can’t wait.

    .

  31. The number of donations of $100-million or more last year was also impressive.

    “Ten people committed that much, an increase from 2010, when only six philanthropists gave $100-million or more, and from 2009 when seven donors announced gifts of that size,” reports Philanthropy. “What’s more, gifts of $1-million or more totaled $5.4-billion in 2011, compared with $3.6-billion a year ago.”

    YA guess those 1%’ers are only in it for themselves right Jo-Gina?

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/those-%E2%80%981-percenters%E2%80%99-do-it-again-donations-to-charities-rose-in-2011/

  32. The one on the phone was I.

  33. “Hey no worries, Liberal 101 states when defeat is assured dodge question and continue to insult.”

    Sprinkles on the iced hypocrisy cake!

  34. At this minute, I am on the phone with a recorded message which promises a chance to ask Mitt Romney a question. So far, I am hearing several former Olympians who claim they and Mitt are friends.

  35. Hey no worries, Liberal 101 states when defeat is assured dodge question and continue to insult.

  36. Pot, meet kettle.

  37. “So your contention that any true information becomes false depending upon where it is posted? Love that logic.”

    Icing on the hypocrisy cake!

  38. Didn’t people pay attention in history class?

    The Tea Party was a protest against a TAX imposed on tea to benefit the East India Company. The local merchants felt their businesses were being constrained. So, yes those folks opposed big business and big government.

    The British were trying to be reasonable. They believed that since the colonies benefited from the outcome of the French and Indian War they should help pay the cost. They thought the colonists were being ungrateful.

    Some of my ancestors were royalists. They are now Canadians.

  39. Pfesser, not really sure how that fits into my point on Liberal attack methods

  40. Anon 5:29. So your contention that any true information becomes false depending upon where it is posted? Love that logic.

  41. anon @ 3:51

    I just prefer to keep googling “santorum;” every hit makes sure that Dan Savage’s neologism stays at the top of the charts.

    Homophobic Pat Robertson-trained sonofabitch.

  42. “I’ve little appreciation for misinformation. I don’t mind and actually enjoy differences of opinion. However giving out purposeful misinformation is a destructive and harmful act that I’ve little tolerance for”

    followed by

    “ww.theblaze.com”

    Epic hypocrisy. E-P-I-C!

  43. I would question you about your lying propaganda Jo-Gina, but as you do not comprehend what you are posting, conveniently, you shall get a pass.

  44. What Republicans and the wealthy do to screw over the middle class, poor and elderly.

  45. So here is a prime example of what Liberals will do in order to attempt to discredit their opposition. This is just f^cked up.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/alan-colmes-called-out-for-cheap-shot-comments-about-how-santorum-dealt-with-death-of-baby/

  46. Corporate Control? IS that like Mission Control at NASA?

  47. FACTS; The Original Tea Party. It was an effort to STOP CORPORATE CONTROL BY THE EAST INDIA COMPANY! Need to be historically accurate these days.

    OWS is upset at Corporate Control as well – Interesting!

  48. Just to clarify, I don’t believe modern Israel is a sign Jesus is coming soon, but I know evangelical Christians who do.

  49. Google The Dandy Warhols-Sleep 2000-Thirteen tales from urban bohemia uploaded by rayoflightcanada. It gives a good pictural history of the Middle East beginning with the 1917 Balafor Declaration to Obama’s first Middle East conference.

    As far as I know, Poolman is right. However, today’s Israel is the one of prophesy, the one the Bible said would exist before the end of the world and the coming of Jesus. I have a brief memory of my mother saying founding of the new nation of Israel was the beginning of the end of the world. Therefore the Zionist movement has nothing to do with the Biblical Israel, though many people might confuse the two.

    There are no allies only common interests. In that respect, Israel is our ally.

    I also know about the USS Liberty. Israel sank it because it conflicted with their interests. Both sides white- washed it, again, because common interests seemed more important.

  50. hey JJ…
    I don’t have a problem with “And let me tell you, the idea of any of these people getting nuclear weapons scares the shit out of me.”
    If it helps make things better in North Korea then its fine with me….Maybe Aneedahandjob should be worried also…..

  51. Only the facts. You can choose to believe or deny them. With google and the FOIA, many former classified documents can be found.

    Try USS Liberty for starters, which will reveal some formerly covered over truths.

  52. Anything to back up these assertions?

  53. Happy New Year, All!

    There is a lot of misinformation and disinformation about Israel the nation, Israel the people, Israel the person, and Israel the spirit in biblical context. The Zionist movement however, advocating for a homeland for Jews, is less than 200 years old. It is a secular movement and not based on the Judaic faith. It is also a racially separatist movement by design.

    Israel is its own ally, operating in its own interest. It is not a democracy nor has it been “our most reliable ally in the region”. That is what we hear over and over, but it doesn’t play out in fact.

    They have used us to establish themselves and still profit the most from us.

  54. I’ve little appreciation for misinformation. I don’t mind and actually enjoy differences of opinion. However giving out purposeful misinformation is a destructive and harmful act that I’ve little tolerance for.

  55. Greytdog, there are other reasons including what anon wrote to support Israel. Evangelical Christians, of whom I am not, believe Israel fulfills Biblical prophesy, so they are charged with supporting the nation.

    Israel is our most reliable ally in the region. That is another reason people support Israel.

    Many others would like to see Israel disappear for various reasons. Singer Katy Perry, a Christian tweeted that she was praying for Israel, and she retreated after her message set off a set of angry tweets with a tone similar to yours.

    Juneau Joe is “frisking.” That’s what makes many of his posts fun.

  56. Jo-Gina, me thinks you have finally lost it. Nice work of fiction by the way. But not really. I do want to thank you for destroying your own credibility. You are doing more for helping the conservative cause than anyone else on this blog by showing how cooky Liberals are. Thanks again and keep up the good work.

  57. PYONGYANG (The Borowitz Report) – The following is a letter from Kim Jong-un, Supreme Leader of North Korea, to the people of Iowa.

    Dear Voters of Iowa:

    In December I became Supreme Leader of North Korea. Pretty amazing development for a twentysomething who at the time was still living at home and spending all day playing Angry Birds. But there I was, receiving the cheers of millions of North Koreans, who usually don’t get that excited unless they’ve caught sight of a pork sandwich. (LOL)

    Here is why I am writing to you today: on Tuesday, you will go to your caucuses and choose from among a field of Republican presidential candidates. And let me tell you, the idea of any of these people getting nuclear weapons scares the shit out of me.

    This is just one of many differences between your country and mine. In North Korea, we lock up the criminally insane. In America, you let them debate on TV. Right now you have people running for President I would not trust to take care of my plants.

    So who do I recommend you vote for on Tuesday? In a word, me.

    If you think about it, I am the most Republican candidate of all. In North Korea, we have no taxes. We have achieved that through a conservative policy of no jobs. Also, we have no wasteful “big government” programs providing food, shelter, or safe drinking water. And am I pro-life? Well, try this on for size: I believe that life begins at conception and ends at starvation.

    Now, I know what you’re thinking: I’m too young to be President, since I’m under 35. Well, who would you rather have running your country, someone who’s under 35, or someone whose IQ is under 35? (LOL)

    I think when you look at all the facts, voters of Iowa, you’ll realize that Kim Jong-un is the Republican who most deserves your vote. And if you’re still not convinced, remember this: at least I’m not Mitt Romney.

    Peace out yo,

    Your Supreme Leader

    Get the Borowitz Report delivered to your inbox

  58. Stephen Colbert defends Bill O’Reilly.
    Conservatives need a lot of defending like this.

    http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/stephen-colbert-defends-pappa-bear-oreilly

  59. I understand your confusion Greytdog. You see it is possible to support an ally without telling them how to run their nation. You seem to be very passionate about Israel and condemning Republicans for supporting them. You wouldn’t be one of those people advocating the elimination of Israel off the face of the earth would you? Then there is the whole apples and oranges thing. IF memory serves it takes about 6 hours to fly across the US. 6 minutes to fly across Israel.

  60. Every time I see/hear a Republican bewail socialism on one hand while “upholding” Israel with the other, I almost spew my matzoh ball soup across the room. Israel IS a SOCIALIST country you jackasses. Ever hear of the kibbutzim movement? Yeah, it built Israel. Not those west bank settlements where American Jews go to reproduce American suburbia with a fringe of Orthodoxy, or those radical in-your-face EvangelicalsForIsrael camps – but the real kibbutzes where community, hard work, & yes, defense, were practiced. You know, if you’re going to claim you love & support Israel, then you better effin’ know what you’re talking about – I mean it. really.

  61. NOP, yes, we mostly agree. Paper routes do carry an element of risk. Johnny Gosh of Des Moines disappeared close to 30 years ago. Though there were leads, he was never found.

    No, children can’t be taking jobs away from adults.

    Our economy is in pretty good shape, but we also know people on the edge. Our food bank helps some. Our rural community is an interconnected web of cousins and aquaintances. Many of us grew up together.We also know who are in a bad way through their own mismanagement. One was a hot blond in high school, and had I not feared she was an unknown cousin, I might have asked her out. My wife teases me about it, because our friend isn’t especially bright.

    However, she is a good friend, generous and nice. She is a widow, and though she doesn’t have much, she invited us to stay with her when the flood closed escape roads to Omaha. She bakes cookies for us every Christmas.

  62. Happy New Year Margaret and Helen! And Happy New Year to all porch dwellers!

  63. In general I think it is a good idea for kids (teens) to have jobs as well. My brothers were paperboys, but I no longer think that was such a good idea. A couple of years ago, a teenage girl with a per route was kidnapped from her route, then raped and murdered, so if it when my child, I’d have to take them (boy or girl) out in the car to deliver the news. I was a waitress, I was safe and I met a lot of adults I otherwise would never have met. I think many of them had some lasting influence on me. Do I think kids can dust and clean blackboards, of course, it is, of course, absolutely unseemly to take jobs away from adults and give the job to a child. We need more grownup jobs, providers need wages and the self esteem a job brings before children are recruited for the task.
    I think we aren’t really too far apart of this. In my area the unemployment is so high, there is real competition for even the most menial jobs. I do understand that it is different in your area, but I have to admit, even here, I can avoid first hand knowledge of the problem (unemployment). Most of our friends are either established and solid, or they like ourselves are retired. People don’t like to air the problems so much in real life, so it is mostly from television news or here on the Internet that I know people with some real hard luck stories. Hubby and I easily write a check to help out where we can locally, but in all honesty, we are kind of selfish with our time.

  64. NOP, our children started summer hand weeding of soy beans when they were five. They did their home work by flashlight in the field during harvest when they were in high school.

    Our school janitor had eight children, and they helped him after school. Some of us did too.I grew up thinking kids helping clean after school was the norm. No one used chemicals. They swept floors, cleaned chalk boards and emptied trash cans. All of them are now successful.

    Newt’s was a throwaway line I shouldn’t have used. I don’t think hiring legends of children to janitorial staffs is a good idea. Encouraging them to do odd jobs for spending money and pride is a good idea. That sort of cultural feature is one reason coastal employees like to hire young people from the heartland.

  65. Hell. Here we go…

    And we were doing so good, too…

  66. Happy New Year! to Margaret and Helen and your loyal fans. Thank you for allowing us to visit your porch even when we abuse your hospitality.

    Anonymous, your response to my previous one line comment is a surprise. It is the first time to my knowledge that you have shown even a faint glimmer of your capability to have an abstract thought since you are so absorbed in your solipsism. For once, you were able to put two and two together and come up with four instead of your usual two plus two equals Fox fifty-five. It appears after all this time that you have a modicum of native intelligence. If nurtured, it is just possible that you could begin to become an independent thinking and sentient member of the human family. So far the only feeling you have demonstrated is anger and an obsessive drive to rebut and retaliate everything anyone says. Your problems are obvious to anyone who bothers to do more than scan by your comments.

    Think about eliminating the h*** word from your vocabulary and you would be on your way. As far as I can see, you are the only poster here who has ever used that word with any frequency. Please take the suggestion under advisement and work on it. In another five or six years of your free, self-initiated daily and sometimes hourly group therapy sessions here hanging out with liberals, you could make a little bit of progress.

  67. James, I thought you were a closet Liberal, “I believe poor or unemployed people should be working at least part time as WPA folks did during the Depression. Some worked in national parks. Others recorded oral and pictorial l histories. Let them do some sort of job, and maybe some work , like temp jobs would eventually become permanent.” Until you added, “Newt suggested children on free lunch programs could help school janitors.” Janitorial jobs are for parents, not children; Children should be doing their homework during their spare time. We definitely need to be preparing our children for better jobs, already there jobs that cannot be filled, because people aren’t qualified for those jobs. And janitorial work includes the use of industrial strength chemicals.

  68. delurkergurl, I missed your post the last time. How much does your father need? My wife and I could help with some money.

  69. Greed and self interest are the natural order. Most of what we have was created by people who wanted to earn a good living or to become rich. Our society can not thrive in any other way. Consider the Soviet collectivist farms. Families produced at least as much from their private garden plots as the farms did.

    We also cannot leave the people who through bad luck or other reasons fall behind. Farona Harrup wrote that we have brought many of our problems onto ourselves. In the fifties and sixties families lived with in their means, they saved money for a rainy day, and burning a mortgage was an important event. We need to change the culture.

    I believe poor or unemployed people should be working at least part time as WPA folks did during the Depression. Some worked in national parks. Others recorded oral and pictorial l histories. Let them do some sort of job, and maybe some work , like temp jobs would eventually become permanent. Newt suggested children on free lunch programs could help school janitors.

    Private or government entities could offer job interview classes at times and as some places do now let people choose clothes appropriate for an interview.They could also help people take job training or college courses. Part of the training, which most of us could use teaching people how to conduct their lives and manage their money.

    That’s how I would do it. It might cost more money initially, but most people would be collecting government checks for a shorter time than they do now. They would retain some of their pride and satisfaction contributing to society instead of being freeloaders.

  70. Cynthia –

    I appreciate having trouble expressing oneself; I wrestle with it all the time, which is why I often tell stories of my experiences where I have learned something; I think folks connect better with that.

    In that spirit, indulge me a moment.

    In the human body, all the systems are not only very complex and interdependent, they are very “robust” – meaning they handle disturbances remarkably well. It is well to be extremely humble as a physician when you feel that you should interfere; it should be a question of “have-to,” and undertaken with great respect because you are disturbing a finely honed – not only ONE system – but a system of systems. It is a hard attitude to attain, because the human brain is attuned to “fixing things” and very poor at seeing the unintended consequences of doing so.

    One of the things we studied in engineering was automated control systems; the same principles apply whether you are talking about airplane autopilots, the thyroid gland or economics, and one of the most important principles is how any system responds to a disturbance. If it overreacts, that can be worse than not reacting at all; for example an overreactive autopilot might respond to a gust of wind by rolling the airplane upside down before straightening it out. Likewise, even though an economy without any controls is in the long run very efficient, you have boom-bust cycles that are just devastating as the speculators and bankers keep trying to get just one more dollar. Not a problem for them, but can cause mass starvation for many others. Hope I’m not putting you to sleep here…LOL

    This kind of thing happened over and over until the Great Depression, when the world put on certain dampers that tamed the boom/bust cycles quite a bit. Glass-Steagal was one of these. Unfortunately the Wall-Street whiz kids got Congress to slowly gut these regulations, and we are back to where we were. The OWS folks for the most part don’t know their asses from home base, but they are right in principle, IMHO.

    I am geek to the core; I read econ textbooks for fun. That does not make me an expert by any means, but over time, as far as economic policy goes, I have come to the Chicago (Milton Friedman) POV. I believe that a well-regulated (as above) market will result in the best prosperity for the most people over the long run. Yes there will be up/down cycles and ripples, but the more the government interferes beyond – and this is important – PASSING REGULATIONS THAT MAKE SURE EVERY PLAYS FAIR AND THE PLAYING FIELD IS LEVEL – almost always make things worse. I think Obama’s boy Bernanke’s money-printing will turn out to be a disaster. It encourages Americans to spend and not save, since inflation will eat up everything you save for tomorrow. If you look at the Federal Reserve’s record, this PRIVATE BANK has never, ever done anything right except when Paul Volcker raised interest rates and held them there to kill inflation. That is a strong statement, but I believe it is true. They are always behind the curve – push when they should pull, pull when they should push.

    I believe Paul Volcker and Ronald Reagan had it just about right. They and Bill Clinton were reasonably disciplined and set a policy of low taxes, reduced regulation, low inflation that fueled the longest peacetime expansion in US history. The undisciplined congress, Bush-the-Lesser’s spending, and Barack Obama’s spending are going to lead us to a very bad place.

    I am supporting Ron Paul; he is the only one that understands that Congress and the President must submit themselves to the Constitution, instead of attacking it at every turn. He has the kind of “good-doctor” humility I spoke of above. I believe that for not only poor folks and out of work folks, black folks, natives in the Villages in Alaska, returning to government by our Constitution is the only way we can save this wonderful Republic.

    Sorry for the length. I do go on a bit.

  71. My step father has been without insulin since Wednesday because he can’t afford it. They paid for it through the donut hole, but once through it the copay is higher and they ran out of money. They have cut corners everywhere they can and didn’t exchange gifts for Christmas. His diabetes is far too bad to be going without his medication. They asked the doctor for some to get him through but apparently they can’t carry the type of insulin he’s on, though they do provide him with several other medications he would otherwise be unable to afford.

    I wonder how many people are in his shoes and how many of them die as a result. We should do better than this in the best country in the world. If I’d known, I would have found a way to pay the copay for them. I assume his coverage re-sets today. I guess I’d better call and make sure.

  72. Pfesser – you have brought up a number of very good points as did JJ. If you have known a man or woman who has been laid off and having difficulty finding another job you can see them begin to lose their sense of pride, dignity and self worth. And the longer they are out of work the bigger the toll on them. IMO there will always be a number of losers/deadbeats in a society who have no problem living off the dole. But there are many valuable people who just need temporary help. So what do we do?

    I am having problem put this to words…would it not be the place of community leaders, ministers, teachers etc in your “southern coalfields” to take some responsibility to educate/encourage or discourage people from destructive behavior. Make it known what is considered acceptable and what is not.

    I have thought that instead of out right welfare we should subsidize the difference between what one can earn and what it cost for them to live at a reasonable level.

    Should we be a caring compassionate civilized society or one where everyone fends for themselves and if they can’t make it then too bad for them?

    How would you handle it?

    Peace.

  73. “Take any conservative position on a social or economic issue and boil away all the rhetoric and what you are left with is “I got mine, screw you.
    (snip)
    Can I get an amen?”

    No, but you can certainly get a “straw men” – because that’s what all your “examples”are – a complete mischaracterization of every conservative issue you list, followed by a denunciation of things YOU made up.

    I am about as un-conservative as anybody you will ever find, but sometimes they have a point. Let me give you an example from my personal experience: I grew up in West Virginia, in the “southern coalfields.” When I was a little boy, nobody had much, but there was a sense of pride and the dignity of hard work. Yes there were a few folks who were hard against it, but they were rare and their circumstances often accompanied by an addiction to strong drink. I didn’t know anybody who would count himself as poor; all our families had about the same: nobody went hungry and I remember it as a very happy time.

    Then the sob sisters with the leaky waterworks came in from New York; they told us we were poor and depressed. They put folks on the dole; they got the young girls set up with payments for their illegitimate babies and bought them milk and diapers. By the time they were done with us, Night Comes To The Cumberlands was a pretty good description of our situation. It is nothing to find a twenty year-old woman with five children, no husband, no job – and all on welfare. We created these people with our policies.

    These New Yorkers (I don’t know why, but all the VISTA workers seemed to be from NY) were well-meaning, but they effectively destroyed us. The worst thing you can do to a man or woman is to make him or her idle; many of the liberal policies of the ‘sixties, ‘seventies and beyond do just that.

    There are good people who are well motivated on both sides of the liberal/conservative divide, and there are two sides to every political POV. Not every liberal POV is gospel, and not every conservative is a bastard, and saying so just ruins your credibility, IMHO. There is plenty to criticise on both sides, believe-you-me; I’ve lived long enough to see it all.

  74. The more I thought about it, the more obvious it became. A conservative society is a borderline sociopathic society.

    Dictionary.com defines a sociopath as: a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

    Conservapedia says a sociopath is “someone with a personality disorder characterized by an antisocial behavior and an absence of moral responsibility or social conscience.” (I would have cited Wikipedia but we all know they’re a liberal front for George Soros, I think I heard that on Glenn Beck)

    The key words here are “moral responsibility” and “social conscience”. Conservative politics lack these essential characteristics. In their place we find greed, hate, lies, an inability to empathize and an overblown sense of entitlement and self importance. In other words: all the indicators of a seriously disturbed person. Except it’s a political philosophy and it has millions of disciples.

  75. Take any conservative position on a social or economic issue and boil away all the rhetoric and what you are left with is “I got mine, screw you.”

    I thought about that for a while. I suppose its simplicity struck me as being a little too easy, a little too sound bitey. So I sat down and made a list:

    No gay marriage – Homosexuality makes me uncomfortable (due to misguided religious influence or poor upbringing or both) so gay people should be punished because of my beliefs. Stoopid homos…
    No welfare, food stamps or Medicaid – I’m not poor enough to qualify for these programs so my tax dollars shouldn’t pay for it. Stoopid poor people and by poor I really mean black…
    No health care reform – Why should I help pay for other people who are sick when I’m not? Stoopid sick people…
    No environmental protection – Environmental laws makes things more expensive for me and that’s bad. I also don’t understand the concept of long term impact; I want cheap gas and gadgets now! Stoopid…ah, you get the idea…
    Don’t raise my taxes – EVER. The government can find its own money to pay for stuff.
    Medicare – Young conservatives: Why should I help pay for old people and the disabled? Older conservatives: Keep your government hands off my Medicare!
    Social Security – Young conservatives: Sacrifices need to be made, people should take care of themselves, not depend on handouts from people like me. Older conservatives: Sacrifices need to be made BUT DON’T YOU TOUCH MY SOCIAL SECURITY!
    No abortion – The government should tell women what to do with their bodies because I don’t like abortion.
    No prayer in school? – GOVERNMENT OVERREACH!! I like The Jesus™ so everyone should have to listen to my prayers. No Muslim prayers, though. That’s indoctrination.
    Can I get an amen?

  76. Now that I feel better, it is time to bring in the new year as my wife and I have done from the beginning. I’m gone!

  77. Thanks for the Tori Amos suggestion. I like her singing too.

    Those singers are all new to me also. I found them during my family history research. Scandinavian folk singers are better than some of what we hear in the US.

    You might like Sofia Karlsson Jeg Vanter.

  78. Interesting 2 min video on the fed.

  79. They now have enough signatures to have a vote to recall Gov Walker. Here is some background information – let the recall vote take place.

    http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/cls-top-50-videos-2011-9-chris-hayes-and-na

  80. Prior to my therapy, I was in band in school. I have a great appreciation for classical, jazz, and big band music. It was probably as close to having a genuine emotional experience as I ever had.

    The therapy worked better than I had anticipated. At about the 2 year mark the flood gates had opened up. I found myself ill prepared for the intensity that some emotional experiences bring. So i am very guarded by what I read and watch. For much of the past years it has been a full on or off experience that has subsided to a small extent to more moderate levels of intensity. Having had a child, I can no longer tolerate any news on children being abused, abducted or killed. Knowing what I know now I would still do things the same way, though maybe sooner. I’ve feelings of guild for those that have passed that I should have showed more concern and been there more for. But the profoundness of having a child with my wife I wouldn’t trade in for anything.

    I liked the song you offered up. Not someone I am familiar with. Listening to other selections by her on youtube as I write this. I am find of softer female voices like this. Tori Amos is among my favorites. If you haven’t heard check out Mr. Zebra. Just a minute long song.

  81. Noah, could you check Liekkas-Sophia Jannok and let the emotion settle in? Do you feel any differently after hearing the song?

  82. NOP, I was sick yesterday, so my only celebrating was with 14 hours of sleep. My wife and I will celebrate today.

    Anon, we all have a story, and we are all wired differently. At one time, I thought we were as we were because of how we were raised and how life treated us. But then, why did my father, grand mother, and aunt tell me “You remind me of Great Uncle Charlie. You even look like him.”? As I grow older, I wonder about that. What are/were your ancestors like?

    I have my own identity situation. Through my life I “knew” my family was all Welsh and Scottish. Now, after a little digging, I learn my Scandinavian ancestors were violent killers who invaded Europe. Others practiced cultural and physical genocide against my other cousins, the Sami.

    I also learned Rene Zelweigher and Joni Mitchel are daughters of Samis. Mormons recruited Scandinavians and are responsible for many of their deciding to come to the US and Canada. Americans sent Samis and reindeer to the North to teach Inuit people to herd reindeer.

    The world is filled with much more than politics. Learning new things is better than any drug or alcohol high.

  83. in my 30’s my wife confided me in that I was not the most romantic, emotionally supportive person she had ever met. So I decided to go see a therapist to try and discover why this was, and try to become a better husband to my wife. 2 1/2 years later after much testing, it was determined I had Aspergers Syndrome.

    Simply put, I see the world a bit differently than most, I am wired differently. Much of the social interactions that go on between people is a mystery to me. I spent my school years studying people, watching how they interacted with others and used their responses to approximate my own more appropriate response in a similar situation. I eventually got very good at it, but never were the feelings I showed genuinely my own.

    I spent most of my 20’s very absorbed in self and gave little consideration to others. At age 28 I went into college and discovered philosophy. It was the first time I had ever been asked to challenge the things I believed. To take the things I held most dear to be true, and to see if they held to scrutiny. I was hooked. I founded my colleges first philosophy club and served as its President for 2 years, and attended meetings for 4 years after I graduated.

    I am very much a pragmatist. When a subject grabs my interest, I chase after it. I love to read. I read on average 2 books a month and spend a great deal of time researching various things online. At present I have 21 web pages open on a variety of topics. I am debating with you all here, I am on another blog with a Sudanese gentleman from London and his professor having an argument about photo I.D.s being the tool of the Republican Party to suppress the poor and minorities from voting. On yet another blog I am discussing cosmetology with a gentleman from Australia working on his masters thesis about time and gravity.

    My wife thinks my thoughts are very scattered, but in my mind I have everything organized exactly as it should be. I have a very black and white approach and little room or appreciation for grey areas. I think most things in life have a fundamental truth once you get past all the emotional baggage attached to it.

    Apologies for being so verbose on a topic that probably matters little or not at all to anyone else. I could think of no other way to convey why I am the way I am doing it any other way. For the reasons mentioned above, I have little notion or desire to be any other way. I see a lot of the banter that goes back and forth to just be clutter that gets in the way of getting to the heart and truth of the matter, and there are only so many hours in the day. There is always another news article, always another book waiting to be read. I understand not observing the niceties is off putting for a lot of people, but it is just the way I am.

  84. Happy New Year! Kind of quiet here, I hope that means you’re all in church and not in bed hungover. If you are, shame on you for inflicting yourself with the honky tonk flu last night. Here is to a interesting and healthy year 2012 for all of us and our families.

  85. The Biggest Losers of 2011 awards are out!!

    http://www.kellybeehtx.com/2011/12/kellybees-biggest-losers-for-2011.html

    1. Ghadafi 2. Bin Laden 3.. Sarah Palin 7. GOP Presidential Candidates

    Welcome to 2012!!

  86. anon –

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but any ill “consideration of the man” is only because of the “man’s” prior words, since that is the only way any of us know each other.

    If you want to change your way of doing business, it seems to me more honest to say, “look, I am not happy with the way I have behaved in the past and I am trying to do better.” I did that almost exactly a year ago, and did not come back as “anon.” Anybody can evolve and grow, but the sad fact is that your past really DOES follow you. That’s the price you pay for an ill-considered word in a heated moment. I know.

    Just my .05.

  87. p.s. You make good points. Why don’t you take a handle so we can tell one anon from another?

    Tried that once. Because of how I am, it always ended up being about me, and rarely ever about my thoughts. Who I am, and the people who make this blog what it is, can probably never coexist without degenerating into what we had before. Keeping them guessing some of the time at least presents the possibility that the words are given more consideration than the man.

  88. Pfessor, I am sicker than a dog and my wife and I postponed our New Years Eve plans until tomorrow. I am about to go to bed. However, I believe you are wrong about Sarah Palin. She is as much of an air head as Al Capone, Stalin and Jessica Simpson. She may be a grasping ambitious harpy playing national politics with the rules she learned in Wasilla, but she is not stupid, in my opinion.

    When she first appeared on the national scene, Democrats rightly regarded her as a threat, and they sent hoards of lawyers and reseachers to find something to discredit her. The attacks came, not because she was stupid. They came to neutralize the danger she represnted. Republicans would have done the same.

    Democrats started the rancor along with Rush. To Bork has become a verb. Clinton used the “politics of personal destruction.” Actually, no one alive started it. His critics compared Lincoln to a monkey, for example.

    I’m thinking of Craig and Mageen too. Juneau Joe posted a good link to happiness.

    Happy New Year everyone!

    Thanks again Pfessor and delurkergurl for offering to donate some money to our food bank as we recovered from our flood.

  89. Happy new year, Margaret and Helen! I hope you’re blessed with a year of good health and happiness! Thank you so much for creating this space where I’ve been blessed to find great friends I cherish very much.

  90. Happy New Year Margaret and Helen and all who stop by here!
    Sending extra special wishes for Craig and Mageen and their spouses.

    PFesser- I made my once-every-20-years-trip-into-the-big-city 2 years ago to visit with friends and be on Shannyn Moore’s radio show (she is one of my favorite voices-of Alaska ) so when you head this way we’ll have to figure out the 500+miles away dealie . Big state here :-)

  91. Anon @ 6:11

    I too feel a great unease about our country. The Ron Paul (banned) commercial really sums it up. I would put that commercial right up there with the Apple “1984” commercial as one of the best of all time.

    I just finished a book that analyzed the fall of great nations. It was a book on archaeology, of all things (Once a geek, always a geek). It laid out the steps that all nations go through that eventually decline and fail. It is really troubling, because I see a perfect analogy with what is happening in the U.S. now. The legislatures (and especially Congress) continue to pass laws but never take any off the books, the net effect of which is to put the country in an ever-thickening pool of molasses, making it harder and harder to carry on the business of the Nation as we try to comply with all the new regulations on top of all the old ones. The public school system is a perfect example – I was on a county school board for several years and the system is completely paralyzed.

    There are people who know what needs to be done, but I don’t know if it will happen. The Govt really, really wants that “switch on the Internet” so they can turn the whole ‘net off “in a national emergency” (yeah, right) because they know that is how people will get together to tear their little playhouse down. I don’t know who will out, but it’s a footrace for sure – and the stakes couldn’t be higher.

    p.s. You make good points. Why don’t you take a handle so we can tell one anon from another?

  92. I just want to say that the conversation around here has taken a turn for the better, IMHO. Simon – I don’t get by here too often so I missed your entry into our midst, but damn fine job! You really hold your own in a pretty tough crowd. Alaskapi – really good to see you get fired up! I’m going to try to get to Anchorage this year or next and maybe I can buy you lunch or something.

    I think I know which anons are Noah and Tex, and damned if it doesn’t seem that we are ALL giving and taking and having real conversations for once. NOP, James, and everybody else – good “knowing” you – however much you can know someone online. Mageen and Craig – I hope the coming year is better than the last one. Everybody is pulling for you.

    Lots of brain power working here these days. Now THIS is what I came for!

    (Of course, it could be my six toddies leading my thoughts astray…it IS New Year’s Eve, isn’t it?)

  93. Again…and again…this conversation was not about if SP was a good politician or not. It was about the LWM crossing the line and doing things that should not be done. Their may have been articles on the Bush twins, but none went to the level that they did with SP. None kept after the twins like they did long after SP was out of politics and no longer relevant. Apples and Oranges PFesser.

    Politics for some, religion and abortion for others, make people lose their objectivity and ability to have rational dialog. This blog has been a shining example of that on may occasions. The office of the President has become the latest reality show. It is a mix of day time soap opera and American Idol. I firmly believe we have become so dumbed down and divided that we no longer care for ourselves or our country rather we only care if our sides win, consequences be damned.

    Rome was one of the mightiest nations . No one ever believed it would fall and lasted for hundreds of years. Until one day it started to decline, and eventually one day fell. Make no mistake about it, we are in decline. Our leaders have seen this and have for years been quietly curtailing our freedoms one at a time. An Army division deployed inside our borders tasked with protecting the borders and responding to civil unrest. Legislation passed that allows US citizens to be detained indefinitely if they are considered to be disruptive. In my state, the Governor now has the power to take over any city that , by his determination alone, is in financial crisis, and appoint a person or corporation to take over that city for an indeterminate period of time, to be determined by the Governor, regardless of the will of the people elected their officials.

    Our foes smell blood in the water. It is when one is weak and wounded that we are in the most danger of being attacked. Financially we have never been more vulnerable. As a country we have never been more divided. We are watching rival countries come together. Russia, China and Iran have never been closer. 3rd world nuclear proliferation is about to become a reality. Unstable nations that actively promote terrorist activities with radical religious beliefs will now have weapons of mass destruction at their disposal. To me it seems we have the perfect storm for a once great nation to experience its final chapter.

  94. The legacy of Iraq. Where are the Neo-Conservatives who started that war?
    I am appreciative that today because of President Obama, we are out of this war which lies got us in.

    http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/chris-hayes-iraq-war-architects-where-are-t

  95. re: Sarah Palin family attacks.

    I guess where you stand depends on where you sit. I have seen pretty much all the “news stories” you mention. I think they are out of line, but unfortunately – at least to my eye – reflect the debauched state that the American press – if you can call it that – has come to, more that Palin-hating. They hate everybody.

    About fifteen years ago I spent 1600 hours in my basement building a homebuilt airplane and most of that time I was listening to talk radio. To my eye, it was Rush Limbaugh who really got this “politics of personal destruction” going – and I listened to him at least half of the time.

    All this nonsense with the Clinton impeachment did nothing but harden the Left’s resolve that when the opportunity arose they were going to be absolutely vicious, and they have, but IMHO they didn’t start it. (Not that two wrongs make a right)

    The press was all over the Bush twins’ drinking and Newt’s philandering, John Edwards’ philandering, ad infinitum ad nauseum. They go after everybody. (Of course, in fairness, it is Palin who made a big deal out of this “family” thing and outed her daughter’s pregnancy – not the press. It is SHE who dragged that poor Down’s Syndrome baby prop all over hell’s half acre as a political statement, so it is SHE who opened up her family.)

    I think they particularly hate Palin because she is a f’ing airhead and the ReBiblicans actually thought they were going to get her elected to something. I think it is the ReBiblican’s insulting America’s intelligence that got them fired up about Palin more than anything. That poor girl couldn’t pour piss out of a boot with instructions written on the heel. (HT to Lyndon Johnson) If you want to get a real idea of who SP is, ask some of the people who actually LIVE in Alaska; the bloggers up there rip her a new one every chance they get – which is pretty often.

    Doesn’t matter anyway. Just like Jesse Gryphen said, she and Todd are separated and have been a long time; she has moved out of “fish-pickin” territory and taken the millions given to her by her credulous hangers-on, and has moved to Arizona. You’ve pretty much seen the last of Klondike Kardashian.

  96. Candidate Check: Which Republican are you fools now backing? Last time I asked it was Newt. You folks still Newt fans? It sounds like Newt is pandering to the Palinbots – she could be VP. Which Clown are you pulling for in Iowa folks?

    A history lesson by Michelle Bachmann

    http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/cls-top-videos-2011-16-jimmy-kimmel-unveils

  97. Babies found being terminated as late as 8.75 months into the pregnancy and you want to talk population Jo-Gina? Really? WTF is wrong with you man?

  98. http://wickershamsconscience.wordpress.com/

    Overpopulation. Among the crises facing the planet is human overpopulation. During 2011, we rolled the odometer over to an estimated 7 billion. To a deplorable extent, especially in the Western world, the rate of population growth is a function of religious teachings. The Catholic church’s and the Latter Day Saints’ crazed obsession with large families would be two examples. When religious dogma have counter-survival effects, it’s past time to change them. WC calls on those latter day saints and infallible pontiffs to have a revelation: that further growth of human populations is terrible, and must be controlled, that more than two chldren is a sin by whatever definitions they use.

    Anon: Be Responsible: TELL US HOW YOU ARE GOING TO PAY FOR THE:= BIRTH OF ALL THE CHILDREN, -THE HEALTH CARE OF ALL THE CHILDREN and THE FOOD FOR ALL THE CHILDREN for those who have parents without healthcare, food or a job!!!

    No Ones Puppet: The Biggist Loser and the Iowa Caucus – That is so fitting.

  99. Still think unborn children should have no rights?

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/two-abortion-docs-charged-with-murder-after-35-late-term-babies-found-in-freezer/

  100. One of the best political commercials I have seen in a long time.

  101. It has occurred to me Iowa’s Republican caucus is January 3, the same night as the premiere of the Biggest Loser. Coincidence? I think not!

  102. A quick review:

  103. Democrats leave in droves for Ron Paul.

  104. Interesting link Juneau Joe. If I was any happier, I’d be dead, because those twelve describe me. Don’t take it so seriously.

    2011 wasn’t bad; it was an adventure.

    tik tok, dude.

  105. I want to wish all a better 2012 than 2011.
    What a weird year. A Congress that did nothing but try to destroy the economy. If President Obama tried to do something, the Republicans stopped it cold – gridlock for an entire year. A year of putting corporate policies and tax breaks over the needs of the middle class. A year of cutting out the safety net under the middle class and poor who needed it because of the disaster of an economy. It was a year of REPUBLICANS INSISTING THAT THE WEALTHY AND CORPORATIONS DO NOT HAVE TO PAY MORE TAXES TO HELP MOVE OUR ECONOMY FORWARD. A year of keeping the disaster which we know as the BUSH TAX CUTS and the REPUBLICANS WANT TO CONTINUE THEM for infinity and beyond – STUPIDITY. Corporate Welfare and Billionaire Welfare got stronger, while helping the little people went by the wayside. Even this liberal blog was essentially taken over the right wing element. C

    May 2012 be a better year overall.

    I have some very positive people around me – Thankfully. I found this study which has a list of 12 behaviors and actions which positive people do on a regular basis.

    http://www.marcandangel.com/2011/08/30/12-things-happy-people-do-differently/

    Noah: You would benefit greatly from the link above. I feel very sorry for you and your negative mental state.

    Bye 2011 – Welcome 2012.

  106. Peter Defazio talking about cuts of programs to drop outs. Quite good.

    http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/cls-top-videos-2011-21-pete-defazio-s

  107. You do know this legislation was passed under the watchful eye of your Messiah? OR was he out golfing when this legislation, which I brought up almost 2 months ago, passed?

  108. Hey Jo-Gina, I wonder, in your reality are Democrats in control or is George Bush and the Republicans in power?

  109. Republicans and their love of perpetual war. Now they to take out Iran.
    The war machine must pay a lot. Have you noticed that our rights are being stripped from us as war fever increases.

    http://www.brasschecktv.com/videos/war-is-a-racket/the-sledgehammer-of-reality.html

  110. Republicans and their love of gambling and wars.

    Quite well done!! Well worth watching, It explains a lot about the current Republican Party and their need to destroy the economy.

    http://crooksandliars.com/tina-dupuy/cl-david-pakman-show

  111. 16% of GDP is spent on Health Care in the US. It is the highest percentage in the world – yet, the middle class must fight tooth and nail to have their treatments covered. THE CEO OF HEALTH CARE COMPANIES ARE MAKING RECORD SALARIES and bonuses. 60% of bankruptcies are caused by medical bills AND THAT IS FOR PEOPLE WITH HEALTH INSURANCE. I would rather have a single payer program, which would be cheaper and more inclusive, without denying coverage to people with pre-existing conditions.

    I have a friend with cancer who had to lawyer up to get her $30,000 bill paid.
    She won and they paid the lawyer too. She is alive today because of those treatments.

    YOU INSIST THAT ALL BABIES BE BORN, INCLUDING RAPE, INCEST, etc.
    You say you are accountable: HOW DO YOU FEEL WE SHOULD PAY FOR THOSE BABIES? IF WE GET INTO TWO WARS – accountable – SHOULD THEY BE PAID FOR OR PUT ON A CREDIT CARD?

    Of course you will not answer. YOU ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING ACCOUNTABLE!!!

  112. And just in case you bought Jo-Gina’s lie that the economy is doing fine under Obamanomics, this just in.

    http://www.newser.com/story/136491/struggling-us-cities-turn-off-the-lights.html

  113. Ahh Jo-Gina, so you are not willing to practice what you preach. Big and brave of you to admit your hypocrisy.

    As for your anti government rant, dam straight. Name me one other entity that is more irresponsible and wasteful with their money than our government. I know for a fact WE the people can do much for the economy than the government ever could. FACT!

  114. Despite what antigovernment conservatives say, non-
    defense discretionary spending on areas like foreign aid, education and food safety was not a driving factor in creating the deficits. In fact, such spending, accounting for only 15 percent of the budget, has been basically flat as a share of the economy for decades. Cutting it simply will not fill the deficit hole.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/opinion/sunday/24sun4.html?_r=4&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

    When the wealthiest pay pre-Bush taxes (which amounts to millions per person) I will pay willing to pay pre-Bush taxes as well, not before.

  115. As a business owner, Noah, you are fully aware that there is only so far you can lower revenue before you pile up big losses. Can your business sustain massive unbudgeted expenses, in comparable scale to an unfunded war?

  116. Just so you are aware. All those wishing to pay for taxes, do not need to wait for an act of congress. There are already laws on the books letting people donate additional dollars that go straight to our debt. It makes one wonder the sincerity of all these rich Liberals who claim they want to pay more taxes, yet never do.

  117. “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.”

  118. With President Obama and Republican leaders calling for cutting the budget by trillions over the next 10 years, it is worth asking how we got here — from healthy surpluses at the end of the Clinton era, and the promise of future surpluses, to nine straight years of deficits, including the $1.3 trillion shortfall in 2010. The answer is largely the Bush-era tax cuts, war spending in Iraq and Afghanistan, and recessions.

    My Taxes Increasing: I would accept a tax increase along with the 1% actually. If we can get back to a sound economy, I will chip in some of my tax dollars. I ask that we don’t start new wars though Health Care, Social Security and Medicare funding would be a good use of my increase in taxes.

  119. Everything you ever need to know about a Liberal can be summarized and extrapolated from this one sentence from Jo-Gina.

    “tax cuts have had a huge damaging effect”

  120. LMAO Jo-Gina….$700 Billion in Bush tax cuts..like it is the governments money, and not the people who earned it. I LOVE IT. Did you know that when you get a tax break…you are stealing YOUR money from the government?

  121. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/opinion/sunday/24sun4.html?_r=4&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

    Two Bush wars which were unpaid for! Trillion and a half.
    (You find the WMD’s yet in Iraq? Or were we lied too?)
    700 Billion Per year of BUSH TAX CUTS !! About a Trillion
    Prescription Drug benefit = BUSH’S BENEFIT = Trillion

    every year starting in 2002, the budget fell into deficit. In January 2009, just before President Obama took office, the budget office projected a $1.2 trillion deficit for 2009 and deficits in subsequent years, based on continuing Mr. Bush’s policies and the effects of recession. Mr. Obama’s policies in 2009 and 2010, including the stimulus package, added to the deficits in those years but are largely temporary.

    The second graph shows that under Mr. Bush, tax cuts and war spending were the biggest policy drivers of the swing from projected surpluses to deficits from 2002 to 2009. Budget estimates that didn’t foresee the recessions in 2001 and in 2008 and 2009 also contributed to deficits. Mr. Obama’s policies, taken out to 2017, add to deficits, but not by nearly as much.

    A few lessons can be drawn from the numbers. First, the Bush tax cuts have had a huge damaging effect. If all of them expired as scheduled at the end of 2012, future deficits would be cut by about half, to sustainable levels.

    A few facts help here!!!

  122. *our debt is now over $15.168 Trillion

  123. “When President Obama took office two years ago, the national debt stood at $10.626 trillion. It now stands at $14.071 trillion — a staggering increase of $3.445 trillion in just 735 days (about $5 billion a day).

    To put that into perspective, when President George W. Bush took office, our national debt was $5.768 trillion. By the time Bush left office, it had nearly doubled, to $10.626 trillion. So Bush’s record on deficit spending was not good at all: During his presidency, the national debt rose by an average of $607 billion a year. How does that compare to Obama? During Obama’s presidency to date, the national debt has risen by an average of $1.723 trillion a year — or by a jaw-dropping $1.116 trillion more, per year, than it rose even under Bush.

    How much in deficit spending did Bush spend on average per day during his presidency? It’s pretty easy to figure out: $607 billion/365 days = $1.66 billion per day. That’s a lot of spending, Georgie. Shame on you!

    But compared to Obama’s $5 BILLION of deficit spending per day? Obama spent well over three times more per day every single day than did Bush.

    If you want to argue that Bush looks bad, fine. Bush looks bad. But Obama looks positively vile.”

    Obviously this is only 2 years into the Obama Presidency. Our debt is not over $15.168 Trillion so these numbers above are kind.

  124. Prove it, Noah.

  125. Obama has spent more in 3 years than Bush did in 8.

  126. http://wickershamsconscience.wordpress.com/2011/12/30/2011-in-review-chart-of-the-year/

    There’s a deficit. It’s a very serious problem. But let’s not blame the wrong guy.

    You say it is unfair because it compares Bush’s eight years against Obama’s four years? Okay, double Obama’s spending. Oops, it’s still just over half of Bush’s. Bush deficit – 5.07 Trillion, Obama deficit – 1.44 Trillion

  127. actually that was meant as a joke…in the context of the flying money post

  128. “Not meant to be a factual statement.” – Jon Kyl’s April press release responding to questions about his claim on the Senate floor that 90 percent of Planned Parenthood’s activities are abortion
    “I put an asterisk on my support… One position that I’m concerned about shifting the cost burden to senior citizens. Seniors are saying, look, I’m not in a positon to be able to handle that. I also share that real fear, that’s why I put that asterisk out there.” — Michele Bachmann on her vote for the Ryan Medicare Budget.
    “So let me say on the record, any ad which quotes what I said on Sunday is a falsehood.” – Newt Gingrich flip-flopping on Ryan Budget
    “Corporations are people, my friend.” Mitt Romney at the Iowa State Fair
    “Oops.” – Rick Perry not able to remember the third cabinet department he would eliminate at a GOP debate
    “And when they ask me who is the president of Ubeki-beki-beki-beki-stan-stan I’m going to say, you know, I don’t know. Do you know?” – Herman Cain
    “Every barrel of oil that comes out of those sands in Canada is a barrel of oil we don’t have to buy from a foreign source.” – Rick Perry

    http://crooksandliars.com/

  129. Thank you for proving my point, Noah. You’re behaving like a jerk.

  130. Back off, Anonymous. Don’t make me release the flying monkeys!

  131. Ahhh I see, someone pulled the house off?

  132. Back off, Anonymous. Don’t make me release the flying monkeys.

  133. Oh and FYI Jo-Jo, my child has had a paper rout for 7 months with 1 missed day of work due to flu. Other than his first week he has never missed a delivery or delivered late. Not bad for an 12 yr old. Now if he can do this at 12, I am betting the idiots you claim to represent can do the same.

  134. heh Jo-Jo..all them angry caps…so why is it you feel people in America are so dumb they cannot do without the Liberal party? Kinda missed your answer on that one.

  135. Anon: * YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF FIRST COUSINS MARRYING – got it.
    *YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF ALL ZYGOTES BEING BROUGHT TO LIFE and you would let the mother die – GOT IT!
    *YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF THE GOVERNMENT PAYING FOR ALL HEALTH CARE OF CHILDREN (you insist are brought to life) with your and my tax dollars. – GOT IT!

    Very Republican of you!!

    Which brought me to something of an epiphany. And a New Year’s resolution.

    From now until November, when someone races to pass so that they can claim a place in front of me at a red light, or runs their stuffed shopping cart over my foot so they can beat me to the express line, or shares their cell phone conversation with everyone in the shop, the post office, even the theater, I will no longer reach into the sack of familiar profanities and pejoratives. Nor will I attempt the ever-futile, icy “Excuse me?”

    No, this year I will answer every rude, self-involved, craniorectal act with the same, simple adjective.

    “Wow, how Republican.” “Way Republican, dude.” “That is SO Republican.”

    This appellation is effective in two ways. It tags the behavior with a group of Americans who have spent untold effort identifying with the privileged and telling everyone else to kiss off. Not merely as in, “Hey, you should pay more taxes so I don’t have to,” but even, “Hey, shouldn’t your ten-year-old kid be cleaning toilets at the school?”

  136. Two random comments because I feel like it: Charles Darwin and his wife Emma Wedgewood were first cousins. His mother and grandfather were both Wedgewoods. He worried about it.

    Caucasians, from the Arabs on down are responsible for most of the world’s economic and technological progress. We are the source of most of the World’s great religions. We have also killed and persecuted more people than any other race. Proud, proud, proud.

  137. I guess Jo-Jo got to busy with his campaign to get the black people and poor sterilization program going to be polite enough to respond back. Go get em Jo-Jo

  138. Lucky Lady
    December 30, 2011

    I am on Rick Perry’s mailing list. I put myself on it because watching guys who are too big for their britches is entertaining.

    I think things ain’t going too well at the Perry household, and it ain’t like that’s virgin territory.

    I got a letter from Anita Perry this morning. You know the drill – click the little one to get the big one.
    ANON: YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF THE GOVERNMENT PAYING FOR HEALTH CARE OF THE CHILDREN WHEN THE PARENTS DON’T HAVE INSURANCE THEN!! Thank You! Caps are simply to make your point known to all.

    ANON: WHY DO YOU APPROVE OF FIRST COUSINS MARRYING BUY YOU DO NOT APPROVE OF GAYS MARRYING? Please educate me.

    I like this comment: I will use it until the November electtions.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/29/1049850/-That-is-SO-Republican?via=siderec

    Okay, let me start by translating here. You know where she says, “hearing from so many Americans who just want their country back?” That means “white people.”

    But look at Anita. She’s got one of those “I’m gonna hose you down and set you in a draft” looks on her face. Damn, I know that his whole campaign in Iowa – which, as you recall, was ordained by God because Anita said so – has been about as cheerful as a coroner’s inquest, but Holy Smokes! that woman looks like she’s about to drop a pound of fire ants in his pants.

    If you see Rick Perry the day after the Iowa primary, it’s only because he can run faster than she can.

    Comments (3)

    One Damn Dandy Idea
    December 30, 2011

    Tom from Plano sent us a New Year’s Resolution that we all should adopt.

    It goes something like this.

    From now until November, when someone races to pass so that they can claim a place in front of me at a red light, or runs their stuffed shopping cart over my foot so they can beat me to the express line, or shares their cell phone conversation with everyone in the shop, the post office, even the theater, I will no longer reach into the sack of familiar profanities and pejoratives. Nor will I attempt the ever-futile, icy “Excuse me?”

    No, this year I will answer every rude, self-involved, craniorectal act with the same, simple adjective.

    “Wow, how Republican.” “Way Republican, dude.” “That is SO Republican.”

    This appellation is effective in two ways. It tags the behavior with a group of Americans who have spent untold effort identifying with the privileged and telling everyone else to kiss off. Not merely as in, “Hey, you should pay more taxes so I don’t have to,” but even, “Hey, shouldn’t your ten-year-old kid be cleaning toilets at the school?”
    I saw this at JuanitaJeans blog.

  139. Puppet, again with the personal attacks. You know you are pissing off alaskapi y helping me prove I am right about Liberals being the party of hate and personal attacks?

  140. Ridiculous! With an imagination like your’s, I don’t understand why you can’t find a job, mom must be tired of footing your bills.

  141. Jo-Jo…could you explain to me why you think the American public is the most irresponsible people in the world? I really want to know why you think this?

  142. Jo Jo..look at all them caps..are you angry?

  143. http://juanitajean.com/2011/12/28/lookie-at-texas/Anon:

    Anon: I find it interesting that YOU ARE FOR FIRST COUSINS MARRYING BUT YOU DENY GAYS TO MARRY!! You, and Republicans, sure like BIG GOVERNMENT IF YOU ARE PEEKING INTO THE BEDROOMS OF GAYS OR PREGNANT WOMEN.

    SO, ACCORDING TO YOU: Tax Dollars will be used to pay for the birth of children when parents DO NOT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE, AND GOVERNMENT WILL PAY FOR CANCER TREATMENTS AND MEDICAL CARE FOR ACCIDENTS of children when parents DO NOT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE.

  144. ANON: Your non-response tells me that you want the GOVERNMENT TO PAY FOR THE BIRTH OF THE CHILDREN and to pay when they get sick (cancer or hit by a car.) Thank You for YOUR ANSWER!!!

    Anon: YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF FIRST COUSINS MARRYING AND YOU ARE WILLING FOR YOUR TAX DOLLARS TO PAY FOR THEIR SPECIAL EDUCATION!!! Thank You for your Answer!!

    I have raised 3 children and it is quite expensive. You are willing to spend your and my tax dollars to help raise children YOU INSIST MUST BE BORN!

  145. Ethics and morality trump your petty concerns Jo-Jo. We live in the richest nation on the planet. This is not Ethiopia. If you were to look at Jo-Jo’s question it would make one wonder how the human race ever survived without Liberals holding their stupid, incompetent hands.

  146. Anonymous: Accountable – QUESTION: Who pays for all the children born when parents do not have health insurance? Who pays for the child born and who gets cancer or hit by a car? Are you willing to pay for the public education for all of these childen?

    DO YOU SUPPORT FIRST COUSINS MARRYING? Are you willing to pay extra for special education services for the children? (Accountable)

  147. You underestimate the drug user. They take the person who is paying the cash, and they buy their food items at the store, at something like 40 cents on the dollar. Even criminals have to eat.

  148. “Welfare dollars traded for cash to buy drugs. Thought everyone knew about this.” I don’t think this is even possible anymore, I see people using a card, like a debt card, at the grocery store; they never get cash change, therefore….

  149. Hey Jo-Jo..when you are not busy campaigning to get the sterilization reinstated in NC, how about you put quotes around the things that are not your words, so we can tell when you are vomiting someone else’s thoughts and not your own..thanks in advance.

  150. Another epiphany, maybe it is because I do say things that make me accountable that pisses the people off here so much. They are so used to waffling around, skirting issues, avoiding direct answers whenever possible, too busy being politically correct, that they just don’t know how to deal with someone who isn’t ashamed to say what he believes for all to see. I learned another fundamental truth, today was a good day.

  151. FACTS HAVE A LIBERAL BIAS? What a load of crap. It is now unAmerican for people and Girl Scouts to check the truth of factual information?

    http://juanitajean.com/2011/12/30/the-librul-monster-holds-the-girl-scouts-in-its-fist/

    Right-wing bloggers and Fox News have managed to squeeze in one more liberal conspiracy theory before the end of 2011.

    The controversy is over a section in the Girl Scouts’ media guide that advises readers to use sites like snopes.com and MediaMatters to fact-check what they read on the Internet. Because, as Steve Doocy put it on Fox & Friends on Thursday, because MediaMatters is “clearly a lefty blog,” telling members to turn to them means the Girl Scouts must secretly be in the tank for the left.

    Yes, it is true. Facts have a liberal bias.

    FOX has lost 9% of viewership and this garbage is why.

  152. Another truth. Liberals are really afraid to say yes or no to a direct question. I guess that whole being accountable frightens them more than I realized.

  153. sigh..again with the accept.

  154. Understood, I will take that as a no…your surrender is accepted.

    BTW you thinking the child should have known that at the age of 7 is pretty dam(laugh it up Cynthia) weak.

  155. I have to step away for a bit, life calls. I will be back to continue this, should anyone think it necessary. Until then, a good day to all.

  156. “No the point was the kids never knew they needed to look #1. #2..and I thought would be obvious…subtract 8 years from the child’s age and tell me how you expect them to understand that there is Liberal propaganda being covertly taught to them?”

    Is being aware that not everything put over the internet is true, and that checking with different sources before making up one’s own mind “Liberal propaganda”? I thought it was learning critical thinking.

    “By the way…you didn’t answer…do you except those terms to alleviate your concerns of my hypocrisy? If so the above is your first question.”

    Are you stamping your foot? I don’t have any concerns about your hypocrisy; it is obvious, but it doesn’t “concern” me. You’re not the first I’ve encountered overcome with I.O.I.Y.A.R. syndrome.
    I did answer one of the questions you posed concerning Tea Party Commandments, and asked what else you wanted to know.

  157. No the point was the kids never knew they needed to look #1. #2..and I thought would be obvious…subtract 8 years from the child’s age and tell me how you expect them to understand that there is Liberal propaganda being covertly taught to them?

    By the way…you didn’t answer…do you except those terms to alleviate your concerns of my hypocrisy? If so the above is your first question.

  158. “LMAO, ya that was the entire point of the article Simon..that quote. Glad you caught it.”

    The point of the article was that it took eight years for these kids to come up with a liberal conspiracy story? Good point.

  159. In jail for a little smoke? Do you mean marijuana? Where can one buy marijuana using food stamps?

    Welfare dollars traded for cash to buy drugs. Thought everyone knew about this.

  160. “Simon…maybe if you stopped reading between the lines so much, the obvious would not continue to elude you so. It was a going forward message. You claimed, well whined, that I was being hypocritical for not answering some if your precious questions. I know many of mine were passed by as well, so I am making a pact with you, if you are up for it, to answer every question you ask without exception if you do the same.”

    “Precious questions”. The bitterness and anger you exhibit is telling. What a child you are. I told you at least one “Tea Party Truth” I disagreed with and asked what else do you want to know.

    “So your contention is that ACORN did no voter registration fraud?”

    No, it is that, just like with OWS’ purpose is not violent crime, ACORN’s purpose for existing is not to promote voter fraud.
    Bad apples create problems for all. Newt Gingrich, for example, makes all Republicans look bad; that does not mean the Republican Party’s charter is as ethically and morally challenged as Newt.
    The link I provided demonstrates that the voter fraud claims are not as extensive as the Right Wing media which provides all of your information claims. Also voter fraud itself is miniscule in percentage to the number of votes cast.

  161. LMAO, ya that was the entire point of the article Simon..that quote. Glad you caught it.

  162. Abortion and the RIGHTS OF THE CHILD: Two first cousins get married and have deformed children. Then the children of first cousins could get married the next generation Anonymous and his group say this is right as long as they are male and female.

    http://juanitajean.com/2011/12/28/lookie-at-texas/

    Republicans should get out of the bedroom. Abortion should be a decision between a woman, her doctor and her family.
    (If REPUBLICANS INSIST ON NO ABORTIONS and keep ALL CHILDREN, even from first cousins, then they should GIVE FREE HEALTH CARE AND MAKE SURE THE KIDS HAVE FOOD AND HOUSING.)
    .

  163. Cynthia, no one but you said you cannot have an opinion, there you go making up things again, just your way I guess. I think your outrage stems from my commentary finally showing you what a loathsome, selfish creature you are. So overwhelmed by guilt and shame you lash out at me to alleviate your inner demons. Unfortunately with your skill sets you are left with only pointing out spelling and grammar errors, but hey work with what you got right?

  164. “Speaking of devious

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/15-year-old-behind-blaze-story-on-girl-scouts-speaks-out-clear-liberal-ideology/

    “For eight years we were in Girl Scouts and we didn’t realize that Girl Scouts was promoting such a liberal ideology,” she added.

  165. Simon…maybe if you stopped reading between the lines so much, the obvious would not continue to elude you so. It was a going forward message. You claimed, well whined, that I was being hypocritical for not answering some if your precious questions. I know many of mine were passed by as well, so I am making a pact with you, if you are up for it, to answer every question you ask without exception if you do the same.

    So your contention is that ACORN did no voter registration fraud?

  166. NOP, its a clown show. Our answering machine is loaded with heart felt recorded messages from Republican notables. At least that part of it will end.

  167. “good one Simon……
    so then you agree………
    bullshit=bullshit”

    Without question.

    “Simon….I started posting on this site almost 3 years ago(maybe longer)….I used to talk about “kicking the tires around here”…….The main thing that pissed me off was the people complaing about how terrible the parties are and how bad they behave(usually libs complaining about cons)…….”

    I believe the Right Wing Apologist Known as Anonymous (one of them anyway) has evened the scales.

    “How can it be OK for a Dem to do the same exact thing a Rep gets trashed for??????? Bad is bad and bullshit is bullshit……”

    It’s not okay. Did I say it was? You might reverse the question and ask Anonymous’ view on that. I will alert you, it seems to be the Right can do now wrong.

    “I’ve said before I think there’s to many people in jail for a little smoke but that doesn’t mean that it’s OK to use foodstamp money to buy it and if I have to get drug screened to keep working than welfare receipients should also…..”

    In jail for a little smoke? Do you mean marijuana? Where can one buy marijuana using food stamps?
    As for drug screening, no one, including you, should be drug screened without probably cause. Wanting a job or needing welfare are not probable causes. I believe such demands are proscribed by the Fourth Amendment, but I have had debates with others who claim the courts have ruled in favor of the searches. This doesn’t make the rulings correct any more than Plessy v. Ferguson was ruled correctly. That abomination stood until the Brown v. Board of Education.

    “People have to show ID for lots of reasons……..driving, buying cigarettes, buying alcohol, cashing a check, using a credit card(mine has CID on the back), going into Canada, coming back from Canada, flying, voting in MI,………why not voting all over (OH… that’s right……illegals can’t vote then)………. but then
    http://papersplease.org/gilmore/id.html

    Illegals can’t vote anyway (Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, 1996). It’s those who are US citizens who, for various reasons, don’t have photo IDs who need to be protected from arbitrary obstructions to their voting rights. That you would include “illegals” in such a group is odd and makes me wonder what else is behind such a suggestion.

  168. You are soooooo right Noah. How dare me to have an opinion you don’t approve of. I should have asked you first if it would be alright to speak. Does the word “some” have any meaning in your vocabulary? Get over yourself, the idea you are great and all knowing exist only in your mind. You are getting a bit boring these days. I think you need to work on your people skills. Just my opinion. The End.

    PS – If you are going to use the word “dam” please put the N on it as in Damn. It makes me laugh every time you use dam for damn.

    And to everyone here a very, very Happy New Year! May it be all you want it to be.

    Peace.

  169. Speaking of devious

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/15-year-old-behind-blaze-story-on-girl-scouts-speaks-out-clear-liberal-ideology/

  170. “I will answer any question you pose without exception if you will agree to the same rules. Without…exception. I feel I have done this to date as noted by the thousands of words between you and I alone.”

    At least you didn’t respond with another tantrum…so far.
    I don’t know what questions you want answered. It it’s your List of Tea Party Wonderfulness I’ve already stated I agreed with some, not with others. One example, I don’t agree that the deficit is a bad thing vis a vis getting the economy moving. In times of hot economic activity the budget can then be addressed more vigorously. History has shown this is possible.
    What else do you want to know? I have already told you I don’t agree with some of the items listed. So what?

    “Sorry you missed the point, and the context of the conversation and the point of the videos. I contend that Liberals do not seek to ideologically dominate and win, they attack the person to destroy that person, their family, their friends, and their careers. We wonder why we do not have good people running, and it is because of attacks like the ones I showed. PFesser could not remember any attacks on the Palins, show I linked a few of many showing just a tip of the iceberg of Liberal tactics in politics.”

    The Left in American politics have provided not only suggestions on how to improve the lives of everyone in the US, not just the top economic tier, some of them proven past successes. To suggest the Right doesn’t try to destroy people is naive and silly. The attack on ACORN is only one example.

    “Really?

    http://rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/06/acorn-pleads-guilty-voter-registration-fraud-nevada/
    Okay then, let’s just have an exchange of links.

  171. James, it sounds like the Republican quest for a standard bearer continues after Iowa, since none will have a majority. Good deal, more debates, more humorous moments for all of us.

  172. How craptastic is this.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/philly-councilwoman-will-retire-for-one-day-collect-a-478k-pension-and-return-on-monday/

  173. Cynthia, not everyone is as devious as you. Not everyone has an ulterior motive. I think it is again a pathetic and obvious attempt like the Puppet to distract from a very real issue that you are ill equipped to deal with. It is about the rights of a child that cannot speak for itself. Maybe if you were not filled with so much hate and worry of self, this concept would not continue to elude you.

  174. This is my last 2 cents on abortion. I wonder if some of these men who are so anti-abortion have something else driving it. They once got a girl pregnant and/or wanted to get her pregnant and she chose to abort the pregnancy. He is still so angry that she had the nerve to destroyed his DNA that he will punish every woman so it can never happen again or to any other man. The End.

    Peace.

  175. http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/gingrich-floats-choosing-sarah-palin-vice-president-energy-secretary

    I’ll forget about her when people stop saying stupid things like this about her UAW.
    I’m ready, been ready since she quit.
    Waiting.

  176. next subject please (SP been kicked enough…just cover her with dirt and forget about her)

  177. Common ground is good.I don’t think Anon is a jerk, but I wince once in a while, and not just about him.

    When I was banned for a few months from the Janeane Garafalo site, a group of liberals including 911 Truthers asked a reporter friend to create a site just for me. Twelve of us used it as they tried successfully to get me reinstated. They teased me unmercifully about my banishment, but when our daughter got married, two sent wedding gifts. We shared personal experiences and helped each other. Three of them and my wife met face to face.

    It was a stormy site, but they were good people, and I miss them.

  178. curious anon- if you are noah anon-
    No. Not what is going on.
    See, sometimes no or yes suffices.
    However, in this setup, it’s the setup which has to be looked at first.
    Waving away an argument that you have created another straw man instead of posing a real question about possibly viable candidates not stepping up
    is not acceptable -especially if you really think you are asking a valid question. Reducing the frame of the question further and further to only accept a yes /no answer , losing the total framework of the original question is just silly.

  179. Sarah Palin is attacked personally because she makes herself out to be exactly what she is not. When people note the obvious disconnect, it’s ‘unfair’.

    Regarding attacks on her children, it’s important to note that there is a difference between the media, tabloids, and entertainment magazines.

  180. Logical fallacies – I wonder how many of these Noah uses?

    http://www.philosophicalsociety.com/Logical%20Fallacies.htm

  181. Also, you need to take a logic class, Noah.

    If A is a subset of B, that doesn’t make B equal to A.

    If a jerk is a liberal that doesn’t make liberals jerks.

    If a rapist is an OWS protester, that doesn’t make OWS protesters rapists.

    If a person believes women should have the right to choose an abortion, it doesn’t mean that person would choose to have an abortion.

    If gay people want to get married, it doesn’t make married people gay.

    If an unemployed person is a lazy deadbeat, that doesn’t mean all deadbeats are unemployed, or that all unemployed people are lazy deadbeats.

  182. I am also tired of Sarah Palin, but in the past, I mentioned unfair personal attacks against her and her family. Attacking her policies is one thing. Attacking her as a person or her family is another. I agree with Anon on this.

    The Drudge link reports that Romney is leading in some Iowa and national polls, but unlike other times when a candidate led, the others are still attacking each other.

    More OWS protesters were arrested in Iowa, about five, I think, were detained outside of the Democratic party headquarters.

    Two Maryland doctors were arrested for murder in Maryland for performing late-term abortions and nearly killing a woman.

    A friend of ours felt pretty good but after they left their son and daughter in -laws’ home they noticed he had turned yellow. They waited a day before he went to the doctor yesterday and he was still jaundiced. Today, he has ten hours of surgery in Omaha.

    It is like the old song “Enjoy Yourself…”

  183. Let’s clear this up right now. Noah, people do not attack you because they are liberals. They attack you because you are a jerk. You act like a complete jerk, and people react because you beg for it. If you went to a conservative site and acted like a jerk, you’d be attacked there, too.

    In this one case, it is ALL ABOUT YOU. Just the way you like it!

  184. Curious, I guess a yes or no is to confining.

  185. you are a self-professed liberal ( or a liberal because I call you one whether you are or not)
    hundreds of liberals have attacked me personally
    therefore it is your way to attack me too

    nice and tidy, eh?

    I only attack those who have attacked me
    liberals have attacked me
    you are a liberal
    i will attack you

    even tidier?

    I’m only speaking the truth
    darn liberals don’t want to hear the truth
    they won’t even apologize for questioning the truth
    they won’t say golly gee thanks for setting me staright
    they are barren of integrity and honesty

    tied up with a bow?

    When a right side Libertarian like PFesser, a left side libertarian like me , an old fashioned moderate conservative like James, and a moderate liberal like NOP can all drop some of the red flag and trigger language with each other and get someplace in a conversation by accepting there is general fault all around and try to find common ground it seems to me that something important and useful is happening.
    Dropping the language of extremes as well as dispensing with the game of I’ll -only -deign -to -fully -participate -if -you- meet -my -demands -for -‘fessing -up -to -being -a -total -human -failure crap has had a small measure of success here- even if it’s merely shooting the cyber bull without fireworks.

    I answered your “bottom line” about 6 times- explicitly. I don’t see the narrow yes/no default answer you are pushing for as truly answering the question.

    And, sorry to disappoint I don’t hate SP. I’m just very tired of so much conversation about her being about everything EXCEPT what she did or didn’t do in office- that’s where her public measure should be taken.

    Belittling my concerns about her policies and appointments which have aided in the consolidation and contraction of the fishing industry here into fewer and fewer hands as some kind of personal hatred?
    Get real.
    “The total value of Alaska’s commercial fisheries is $1.5 billion to the fishermen; with a wholesale value of $3.6 billion. Economists have estimated the seafood industry to contribute $5.8 billion and 78,500 jobs to the Alaskan economy.”

    http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=fishingCommercial.main

    Her policies have “helped” scores of commercial fishermen to have to give up their own boats and go to work for the factory fishers and processors. Progress ourselves right backwards if we don’t halt it!

    If more people looked more carefully at the disconnect between what their politicos say and what they do we might get somewhere is a common theme- I suggest we also need to dump the disconnects out here on Main Street too.

  186. I have hundreds of examples on this blog alone of Liberal personal attacks. Hundreds. It is your way, even if you do not have the integrity to admit it. I also have to wonder if in your home you would allow a child to use the excuse that the other kids did it..so its ok. Would not fly in my house. Just sayin.

    I understand your hatred of SP, you have made that perfectly clear. I don’t live in your state, so I don’t know what she did or didn’t do, not that it was EVER my point to have a discussion on that topic. So lets just bottom line it, are you ok with how SP and her family were treated?

  187. anon- LOL!
    You’ve never proven doodly-squat about the made-up magical monolith you call “Liberals” mostly because it doesn’t exist – just like there is no magical monolithical “Conservative”.
    The Straw Man is a Straw Man no matter who sets it up and takes a swipe at it.
    But in light of your notion that SP is a good example of why we don’t get better candidates because liberals just tear em apart over unfair things (oh, conservative groups never do that- they are not prone to any human failings, ever, no sirree bob) I’m saying SP was NEVER a better candidate so that boat don’t float from the get go.Straw Man.
    Also, I’m saying you are not paying attention if you think only liberals attacked her kids or that a whole lot of those who became rabidly anti-Palin ( do you have a clue about the wackdoodle trig-truther thingy? ) are even more than passingly involved in truly political (the business of the people) concerns, let alone actually being liberals.

    You are ignoring a whole lot of things to prop up the notion that good (translates for you as some kind of magical conservative ) candidates never present themselves because the bad people (magical dog liberals) will tear them apart. Do you know SP, your example of a good candidate unfairly done wrong, forced the retirement / not run again of a powerful conservative state legislator by starting a nasty whispering campaign in that legislator’s district? That SP openly mocked and laughed about that legislator’s health problems with cancer on a radio program when SP was a sitting governor? This was SP’s response to that R legislator fighting her on legislation . Way up there in ethical, moral behavior , our Sarah is. Woo-ee.
    I have said over and over , in my real life and in the cyber world, that making fun of SP’s kids advances her agenda of playing that cult of personality, no substance of note there, into a paycheck. You make me laugh with trying to press for an answer to “Does that justify the attacks that were made on her family, children and grand children? Does that justify it long after she was out of office? “. I have never attempted to justify ANY attack on her that wasn’t tied directly to her actual performance as our governor or lying-sack-of-spuds political-action-commentary since she quit on us so I’m the wrong person to ask. When you include the dirty tricks gang of Rove, Breibart, et al, we can talk about the stoopid wasteful unjustifiable aspects of politics in general, across the board.
    Let’s pretend a couple more things are true here too.
    While SP may not be relevant on the national scene anymore , we’ll be dealing with the fallout of her truncated stint in our Governor’s office for some time to come, the tenure of those she appointed to appointments to federal boards like the NPFMC, the 20 year plans for mineral land assays and suchlike which her hand picked comissioners put in place- there is a long list. Each of these things has real consequences for everyday people here and the future of this state. Mz snark-about-crony-capitalism Palin made multiple appointments to important positions which have further solidified the stranglehold of crony capitalists in mineral extraction and fisheries industries.
    Palin’s failures as governor to deal with her office’s constitutionally mandated oversight /governing of the unorganized borough (most of Alaska has no mid-level local government – only state and village, no borough or county) will continue to harm rural communities though the current governor has stepped up and taken care of 2 pressing needs. Can’t stand the guy but at least he’s trying to do that part of his job.
    I’m thinking we don’t see better candidates across the board because , across the board, we don’t really ask for them. We don’t support them .
    As for my house, it’s nice and tidy inside, walk outside is shoveled too.
    Nobody else in here either, except my dog and politics bore him.

  188. alaskapi , the whole Liberal thing may piss you off. Too bad. Clean your house up if you don’t like it. I have proven time and time and time again everything I have claimed about Liberals to be true. No one time, with one persons, but multiple times with many many different people. Sorry if the truth came with a little sting on it.

    As for SP. Let us pretend for a moment everything you said is true. Does that justify the attacks that were made on her family, children and grand children? Does that justify it long after she was out of office? Do you feel those videos I linked were in order and that this is how we run our politics in this country?

  189. We will agree to disagree on that point Puppet. You are Liberal so it is no surprise that in your mind it is always about you. You keep on taking care of you, I will just care for one more person to make up for your slack.

  190. It is a non-debatable subject, it is not your womb or your life and it is not mine either, but it seems only one of us realizes we need to keep our nose out of other people’s business. Enough of your nonsense, the world is full of real problems, this isn’t one them. And if you think your position makes you more moral than those of us who say it is up the woman involved, you couldn’t be more wrong. Clean up your own act.

  191. I am not changing topics and you know it.
    The cult of personality surrounding her is a disgrace on all sides. You want to keep up the game that ALL liberals ALWAYS do rotten things to anyone running against liberal candidates and ignore what I am saying as a liberal?
    Go for it.
    SP’s largest original NON-fan base here was Republican, still is.
    Some who supported her ,like at least 2 R-ex-govs and our Congressional delegation of the time, got tired of her failures faster than any D or liberal here ( there is a distinct difference often times here between Ds and liberals)
    A Republican controlled Senate refused to accept her nominee for AG, the 1st and only time in 50 years of statehood that any governor didn’t get an ok for a cabinet position from the State Senate.
    One of the most conservative Rs in the Legislature rammed through special legislation regarding humanitarian aid in times of disaster in direct battle against her failure to deal with an important problem here.
    You want to keep this about liberals v conservatives go for it- but it has nothing to with the reality of her tenure as our gov.
    Liberals didn’t do this to her. People of all stripes did and she used it to advance her myths and lies.
    She may not be relevant now but using her as an example of someone unfairly taken advantage of or accused simply because she’s conservative is horsepunky. Asserting it was a liberal plot is horsepunky- the derision and BS about her got out of hand but it was a collective barf across a wide swath of people- unlike the planned, focussed attacks of the Roves, Breitbarts, et al.
    There are some Ds who use similar tactics and they make me sick too.
    As often as I want to pinch UAW’s face off, I have always respected his “tire kicking”. I’m the one who asked him if that was what he was up to quite some time ago.
    Him I respect even when I totally disagree. He usually doesn’t get past asking if it’s-wrong-for-Rs-isn’t-wrong-forDs-too-? but implicit in that is an understanding that rs flop too.
    You don’t seem to be able to get there and yet accuse me , who says, Ds/liberals flop too of ignoring liberal failures?
    Pffft.

  192. Cynthia, I am not sure if those concerns are valid or not. I will have to give that some additional consideration. What I am sure if is that it is besides the point. It is either the right thing to do, or it is not. It is a strong enough topic that it should stand on its own merits . If your concerns are valid, then in giving the fetus consideration should be clearly defined and limited to the right to life. However some part of me thinks this isn’t connected, but as I said I will have to give it more thought.

  193. reliant = relevant

  194. I personally think SP hasn’t been reliant for ages, but rather serves as a shining example of what Liberals will do to any candidate who runs against them, even long after they are irrelevant.

    If you feel the need to get it of your chest sure, we can change topics.

  195. Yes I understand your position. But once you give the fetus rights who is to say it will only pertain to abortion? If the fetus has rights when it comes to abortion why would it not have rights when it comes to other situations? Like the mother who does drugs, or drinks, or goes skiing. I just don’t think it will stop with abortion.

    Peace.

  196. oh horsepunky , anon.
    There were plenty of attacks on her kids. I never said there were not. So get that straight.
    And yes- she capitalized on every snarky stoopid POS remark and raised the ante each time.
    The MSM stoopidly or calculatedly made lots of air and radio and print and cyber hoo-rah about it all in the guise of “reporting”.
    What a waste of time and energy.
    Still is.
    You want to talk about her as my governor with me? you want to discuss the multiple fails she had here? The ones all the snark on both sides obscured?

  197. Puppet, that is weak even for you. I understand you have little appreciation for debate and the search for the truth. This statement just reflects your inflexible, closed minded nature.

  198. Someone here has womb envy obviously or they wouldn’t be so fixated on control.

  199. Again this was on the topic of why don’t we have a better quality of people running for public office. As my posts clearly show what Liberals do to their opposition, it is clear why most will not subject themselves, friends, family or careers to this kind of mistreatment.

  200. wait wait wait,,,first it was…there was no attacks on the Palins…now its…do you know she does it to herself, that she encourages it?

    If your child said, Mom, I beat that kid up because he was asking for it, would that “excuse” work for you? I also was not making any evaluations as to her abilities as Governor, that is another topic. I am glad you didn’t care about her kids. Most everyone else on the Liberal side did unfortunately.

  201. Hannity helped destroy the careers of everyone in ACORN through the lies and misrepresentation.

    Really?

    http://rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/06/acorn-pleads-guilty-voter-registration-fraud-nevada/

  202. anon- egads!
    do you have any idea how much SP encouraged that nasty stuff about her family?overtly and not?
    We tried and tried here to keep the conversation on the crap she was pulling as a governor and any time anyone said boo about her family she flapped on about THAT.
    It started to be a game in the MSM (which is NOT liberal) to escalate and report and flap on about all that crap and TOTALLY ignore what that idiot was doing as a governor.
    A whole lot of the anti-palin people are as loony , if not more so, than her ardent besotted fans.
    She was a crappy governor- she started out ok and went downhill in no time- after the federal VP run she was useless, distracted, and disengaged as our governor. She got away with keeping people’s eyes on the crap about her kids to keep eyes off the legitimate concerns about her crappy job performance .
    I will never, ever get over the personal vindictive game she played in filling my state Senate seat which left my district with no rep for a whole session. It took the state Rs in the Senate joining with the Ds to push her to do her damn constitutionally mandated job and fill our open seat.
    Don’t give a damn about her kids and anyone, whatever stripe, who wastes time on that did no one any favors as regards a meaningful measure of SP’s success/failure as a gov- which is what matters.
    Ignore those idiots just like I ignore the birther idiots- we have real stuff to pay attention to.

  203. Cynthia, this absurd argument tells me that you are very insecure of you stance on abortion.

    The problem is that laws are black and white, and this issue is not. This means someone, somewhere, has to draw a line. As I stated before, to have a law that benefits one party and excludes another is almost always bad law. I think a solution is one where both sides of this issue are covered.

    One side you have the mother. The mother can speak for herself and can make whatever choice her conscious dictates. The unborn child cannot, so we have to do it for him/her.

    To be clear, my position for my home differs from my belief for the nation. For my home, abortion is almost never an option. For the nation, it has to be an option. So where would I draw the line if it were up to me. As we can detect pregnancy in the first week now, and news of a saliva test this week used for cancer detection was discovered to work for pregnancy as well we can detect it even sooner.

    We determine that a person is officially dead when brain death occurs. My line would be drawn then in about the 3rd month when we can detect neurons firing in the fetus. At this point I feel it is a reasonable point to conclude that the fetus be given consideration. While I would stop just short of saying the fetus’s rights override the mothers at this juncture, I think we are dam close.

  204. Okay we have determined abortion is murder. The fetus has the rights of a “born” human.
    A married mother who planned her pregnancy, her third, who is in great physical condition and is a expert skiier. She is skiing in her third month as she did during her other pregnancies, not being reckless, just out easy skiing for an afternoon. She hits a patch of ice or someone cuts in front of her and she takes a fall. Later she miscarries the fetus. What do we do now? Will it be said she was reckless and caused the death of the fetus? Who determines this? How about the father will he have some responsibility for allowing his wife to ski? Do we charge her/them with murder, involutary manslaughter? What happens to the other children if she/they are in prison? Where do we draw the line? How do we draw the line? (And of course it is also possible she would have miscarried sitting on the couch.) It is not black or white is it?

    Peace.

  205. NOP, changes are afoot this year. Previously, it was winner take all. This year, is proportional. If Romney, for example, wins 30% of the votes, 30% of the delegates chosen to attend the Republican convention will declare for him and so on. In the past, delegates were not bound to the candidate they represented.

    There’s more, but we are on our way to Omaha. If you want more details, I will tell you later.

  206. Yes, our caucus is almost here NOP. MIchelle Backmann is sinking faster than she was. I feel sorry for her though I wouldn’t vote for her.

    Now, you have probably heard the next hope to stop Romney is Rick Santorum. Iowa Democrats have been more successful than Republicans at predicting the eventual nominee because more Democrats usually attend the caucuses. Moreover, a large number of Republicans who attend are evangelical Christians.

    One can switch parties and register as a Republican on Caucus night. This can lead to sabotage from outsiders. For example, only 5!% of voters who support Ron Paul say they are Republicans. The rest are Democrats or Independents. However, on caucus night, they all become Republicans for a day.

    Republicans have a secret ballot. Democrats stand up and defend their choices.
    In rural areas like ours, the delegates all know each other and engage in a lot of small talk and catching up. People are still talking about our flood, and I suspect it will be discussed some more.

    OWS wants to disrupt the caucuses but we don’t need to worry in our small county.

  207. Simon….I started posting on this site almost 3 years ago(maybe longer)….I used to talk about “kicking the tires around here”…….The main thing that pissed me off was the people complaing about how terrible the parties are and how bad they behave(usually libs complaining about cons)…….
    How can it be OK for a Dem to do the same exact thing a Rep gets trashed for??????? Bad is bad and bullshit is bullshit……
    I’ve said before I think there’s to many people in jail for a little smoke but that doesn’t mean that it’s OK to use foodstamp money to buy it and if I have to get drug screened to keep working than welfare receipients should also…..
    People have to show ID for lots of reasons……..driving, buying cigarettes, buying alcohol, cashing a check, using a credit card(mine has CID on the back), going into Canada, coming back from Canada, flying, voting in MI,………why not voting all over (OH… that’s right……illegals can’t vote then)………. but then

    http://papersplease.org/gilmore/id.html

  208. The 2011 Republican Attack on Women. Here are ten of the worst bills against women rights to control their bodies.

    http://www.alternet.org/story/153580/the_gop’s_10_most_extreme_attacks_on_woman?akid=8066.294211.eNqkB3&rd=1&t=12

    2011 marked a banner year in the Republican war on woman’s health. Close to 1,000 anti-abortion bills sped through state legislatures as the GOP-led House led a “comprehensive and radical assault” on a federal level.

    REPUBLICANS WANT SMALLER GOVERNMENT unless it is peeks into Women’s or Gays sex lives. I think it is interesting that these people are also OK with cousins marrying.

  209. James, could you remind us how the Iowa caucus works. Is it winner take all?

  210. lets get back to OWS…..
    Occupy Plans to Occupy the Rose Parade
    “America is entitled to one day without politics, whether it’s the Tea Party, the Democrats, the Republicans or the Occupy people,” Alexander said. “The Rose Parade is our parade and we deeply resent any effort to politicize it.”“The real demonstration is going to be at the polls in November and at every other election in between,” Alexander said. “That’s where this battle will be fought — not in petty street theater.”

    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/townhallcomstaff/2011/12/29/occupy_plans_to_occupy_the_rose_parade

  211. good one Simon……
    so then you agree………
    bullshit=bullshit

  212. And Tex, not trying to be you, I am not that well spoken. But you know what they say about assumptions. I just don’t have the patients to address then all so I let them go on assuming.

  213. Let’s get to the pressing issues of the day, 2012 is upon us, James caucus in just a matter of days.

  214. o the various videos provided, is it your contention that attacks on non-wingnut candidates do not exist?

    Sorry you missed the point, and the context of the conversation and the point of the videos. I contend that Liberals do not seek to ideologically dominate and win, they attack the person to destroy that person, their family, their friends, and their careers. We wonder why we do not have good people running, and it is because of attacks like the ones I showed. PFesser could not remember any attacks on the Palins, show I linked a few of many showing just a tip of the iceberg of Liberal tactics in politics.

  215. I will answer any question you pose without exception if you will agree to the same rules. Without…exception. I feel I have done this to date as noted by the thousands of words between you and I alone.

  216. “blah blah blah blah blah……
    the conservatives are terrible and the liberals are terrific…..
    the nasty Fox, Rush, Hannity, Savage…..
    all hail MSNBC,CurrentTV, Maddow, Matthews, Obermann…..

    bullshit……”

    Let us replace some words with others and reverse the final sentence.

    “blah blah blah blah blah……
    the liberals are terrible and the conservatives are terrific…..
    the nasty MSNBC,CurrentTV, Maddow, Matthews, Obermann
    all hail Fox, Rush, Hannity, Savage…..…..”

    Still bullshit?

  217. To the various videos provided, is it your contention that attacks on non-wingnut candidates do not exist? I know, given the crowd you run with, you have heard the stories of Clinton’s drug running and murder syndicate (we don’t even have to get into Limbaugh’s comments about the “family dog”), and even you can’t have kind of blinders on that you missed the Birther circus.
    The point I am making (which I know will be lost, so I am attempting a clarification ahead of the necessity) is that politics is a rough business, not for the timid. Keep out of the kitchen and all that.

  218. blah blah blah blah blah……
    the conservatives are terrible and the liberals are terrific…..
    the nasty Fox, Rush, Hannity, Savage…..
    all hail MSNBC,CurrentTV, Maddow, Matthews, Obermann…..

    bullshit……

  219. “So by your definition the potential has no rights until it is able to breath and its location is such that it is no longer inside the mother. In this case geography is a measure in which rights are granted.”

    Not geography, as I noted the first two trimesters are the legal standard we (those of us who seek solutions, not ideologues unable to comprehend dissenting views). The woman’s rights supersede whatever rights a fertilized cell may or may not have.

    “Another new word for you. Accountability. He takes them to task when they violate the terms of the beliefs they have set forth for themselves. He is honest enough to take on those even in his own party when they stray. Which leads us to another new word. Integrity. Show me evidence where he tried to destroy a person’s family, friends, and career or I will blatantly call you a LIAR. Use Liberal’s attack on the Palin family as your guide to measure intent.”

    If you are going to just deny it and “blatantly call” me “a LIAR” (you seem to be getting quite out of control here. Calm down) why would I bother? You have already set the standard that any examples are to be considered false. Open minded of you.

    “What f*cking balls you have to say this when in the context of Sarah Palin. Or with Herman Cain. This is the most hypocritical comment I have ever seen on this blog in any thread by any individual. Nothing was off limits when it came to attacking the Palins. Not friends, not family, nothing. It was a no holds barred attack.”

    If candidates for public office take stands which are antithetical to what they actually practice in real life, are they not to be “taken on” for these hypocrisies? You make Limbaugh’s abuse of his undeserved media power to do the same thing a standard of integrity. So the hypocrisy includes you.
    Again, it was the Republican voters who decided Cain and Palin were unworthy of office, not the “Liberals”. We would have loved to have either of them in the presidential race. I urge them both to form independent candidacies and run.

    “Understood. Don’t feel bad. You are a hypocrite and a coward, and it is these defining qualities that I am sure found you a home in the Liberal Party. Liberals say they hate Conservatives. So I list Conservative values, and they make excuse after excuse why they cannot be bothered to answer. Liberals say they hate the Tea Party. The Tea Party was brave enough; courageous I dare say especially compared to the OWS who use vagueness as a shield; to list their beliefs and intents specifically. So having listed then Liberals make many excuses why they cannot be bothered to take them on. Why? Because they know the truth and common sense are near impossible to argue against. So please, save your excuses for someone who cares. I really don’t care why you don’t have the character or conviction to stand by your beliefs and your words. I only care that you do not, and that tells me everything about you I need to know. If you manage to step up and take them on, great. If not, save your excuses.”

    I have “taken them on” by noting that talk is irrelevant. Action is what matters. What were the priorities of the Republican controlled House since 2010? I am beginning to wonder if you know. Few of your list were addressed.
    You are quite a generalizer, an exceptionally bitter and angry one besides. I have encountered the like many times, in fact I have had family members of the same mindset. They, like you, express open and often near violent hostility to anyone who doesn’t think the way they do, and are angrily exasperated that not everyone does.
    If you are going to address me, address me, not some imagined BoogieMan Liberal who you believe wants to turn you into a communist. I don’t “hate” Conservatives, and stated as much in an earlier post. I believe much of what they appear to believe is mistaken. I may even agree with some of your list, some I do not. For example, as I have noted, there is a place for government intervention in the economy and that intervention has saved the country in the past and will likely do so again.

    But the above rant is just an example of self absorption, another Conservative trait you practice. You give yourself permission to make demands on what others address, while ignoring those questions or arguments for which you have no response. More of that hypocrisy. And around and around we go.

  220. My point is that this is not a black/white issue. We’ve thrashed this around a hundred times, Tex. There is NO point where you can say, today it’s a baby; yesterday it was not, because it is a PROCESS – a BECOMING, not an event.

    Not Tex. You’re carrying on an argument with a doppelganger. But I would say abortion is the one issue above all others Pfesser where you strike me as both a cold and heartless man – even relish in the abortion as you have made quite clear calling the child bastard. Kind of flies in the face of the practice and basic tenet of medicine if you were to ask me.

    But I will say in my doppelganger’s defense, you are terribly inconsistent in your arguments of what represents life. Here, we are dealing with a unique DNA, half the time of the opposite sex. There is no debate of rights because it is clearly two different people by any definition. The best you can say is the rights of the mother supersede the rights of the child in any measure – a conclusion that certainly leads to a really dark place. There are many abortion proponents that have no problem with the legality of ending neonates life. Easily documented, if you require proof.

    Last week Pfesser, you used as example brain death as the dividing line of life and death.

    Yet brain waves are detected at six weeks in the developing embryo. If I am to read you clearly, you have no problem terminating the pregnancy at any stage.

    Since I can’t tell you when, and truthfully neither can you as to what represents the first stage of life, I simply take the pragmatic and prudent approach.

    You choose the method which allows the greatest convenience of choice.

    I’ll let the readers decide which is closer to the Hippocratic Oath you took.

  221. Poolman likes Ron Paul.

    So does Kelly Clarkson. As when Katy Perry wrote conservative views on Twitter, some of Clarkson’s fans attacked her. She back tracked and wrote she likes his libertarian philosophy, not the allegedly racist ones.

  222. tripped = tripled

  223. I couldn’t agree more Peas. I read a article yesterday showing that in the last 25 years, income for members of congress has tripped, while the average American today is earning on average $100 less than 25 years ago. And this number does not count for inflation, which would make that $100 a much much higher number.

  224. .
    .
    The Oligarchy We Live In
    .
    .
    PEACE ~ Δ

  225. The first part of this clip is a repeat but there are 3 or 4 more short clips after. This list of clips does a very nice job of summarizing what the Liberals do to their political rivals.

    So how are these for a memory jogger. I have easily 50 more I can get if you need further evidence.

  226. This is without a doubt the most out of line clip I have seen about any candidate.

  227. This one takes the cake. Ed Schultz: Sarah Palin is a bad mother

  228. This one is on the Media’s attack on her child and grand daughter.

  229. I will warm you up with this one PFesser.

    and for some more

  230. PFesser, loads I will look them up. I am rather amazed your ignorance on this topic considering how many news stories on her daughter alone, on matter of her being pregnant, the status of her on again off again relationship with the baby’s father to put a question make on Sarah’s parenting ability.

  231. re: Palin

    I keep hearing this “attacking Palin’s family” stuff, but I can’t recall that happening. She HAS dragged out that tired old chestnut every time someone voiced legitimate criticism of her – in a vain attempt to throw people off the scent, however. (see “red herring”)

    Would you be able to supply some cites on that?

    I remember when she dragged that poor Down’s baby prop around to show her bona fides as a real anti-abortionist, and then it was pretty well established that her entire story about that baby’s birth was bogus, bogus, bogus. That’s not attacking the baby; it’s attacking her honesty. I remember several other news stories that involved her family, but no attacks on THEM personally. (Incidentally, nobody has seen that baby with her in a very long time; best estimate is that she has either had him institutionalized or has returned him to his mother.)

    I would appreciate some REAL cites showing attacks on Palin’s family. Got any?

  232. I agree Alaskapi. There is not much to add to what you wrote. Short of a disaster which forces change overnight, the process of weaning ourselves from oil and coal will take years. It will also have to be from the bottom up, not imposed from the top down. We have the whole world to consider. Such a change is like turning an ocean liner.

    I’ve already written how I feel about abortion and when a potential baby becomes real. My wife and Iived through the fear and anguish when we considered an abortion, and we know one never really gets over the death of a small infant when an abortion is not involved. I don’t know how mothers who aborted feel about it. I’m tired of the subject.

  233. NOP –

    “Abortion is a very hurtful extreme measure that some women, because of their circumstances, are forced to choose. Candidates who use their heart ache to their own advantage are pure evil in my book. ”

    Well said. Hear! Hear!

    As are the people who twist intent for standing up for ones beliefs into a political gain are equally as evil. It is always sad to see one’s intellect being commandeered by emotion outbursts.

  234. The difference of a fetus in the first two trimesters is not a born baby. The rights of the woman supersede whatever rights the fetus may have, although the fetus really has none until it is a living breathing person.

    So by your definition the potential has no rights until it is able to breath and its location is such that it is no longer inside the mother. In this case geography is a measure in which rights are granted.

    Please, Limbaugh goes after anyone, particularly those in his own Party, who dares to step outside his Con Box.

    Another new word for you. Accountability. He takes them to task when they violate the terms of the beliefs they have set forth for themselves. He is honest enough to take on those even in his own party when they stray. Which leads us to another new word. Integrity. Show me evidence where he tried to destroy a person’s family, friends, and career or I will blatantly call you a LIAR. Use Liberal’s attack on the Palin family as your guide to measure intent.

    Hannity helped destroy the careers of everyone in ACORN through the lies and misrepresentation of Brietbart, and continues to give him a forum, in spite of Brietbart’s enterprises having been discredited again and again.

    Show me evidence where he tried to destroy a person’s family, friends, and career or I will blatantly call you a LIAR. Use Liberal’s attack on the Palin family as your guide to measure intent.

    “Those of us of the Liberal persuasion don’t think a person’s private life, in the public or the private sphere, is of concern, as long as it doesn’t affect the job being done. It can be of concern if the activity demonstrates rank hypocrisy. ”

    What f*cking balls you have to say this when in the context of Sarah Palin. Or with Herman Cain. This is the most hypocritical comment I have ever seen on this blog in any thread by any individual. Nothing was off limits when it came to attacking the Palins. Not friends, not family, nothing. It was a no holds barred attack.

    inally the “lists” you keep demanding we respond to; I don’t care what people say they’re for or against, talk is cheap.

    Understood. Don’t feel bad. You are a hypocrite and a coward, and it is these defining qualities that I am sure found you a home in the Liberal Party. Liberals say they hate Conservatives. So I list Conservative values, and they make excuse after excuse why they cannot be bothered to answer. Liberals say they hate the Tea Party. The Tea Party was brave enough; courageous I dare say especially compared to the OWS who use vagueness as a shield; to list their beliefs and intents specifically. So having listed then Liberals make many excuses why they cannot be bothered to take them on. Why? Because they know the truth and common sense are near impossible to argue against. So please, save your excuses for someone who cares. I really don’t care why you don’t have the character or conviction to stand by your beliefs and your words. I only care that you do not, and that tells me everything about you I need to know. If you manage to step up and take them on, great. If not, save your excuses.

  235. NOP –

    “Abortion is a very hurtful extreme measure that some women, because of their circumstances, are forced to choose. Candidates who use their heart ache to their own advantage are pure evil in my book. ”

    Well said. Hear! Hear!

  236. and saying it is so doesn’t make it so. For some of us the issue is not a sign of weakness or that we are shallow to consider it.

    Fear stops people from talking about things. I hope we stay enlightened enough that in a hundred years we are still debating this issue as we gain new knowledge and understanding of the human condition. Most of you are scared to lose what you have so you belittle and demean the topic and those discussing it. I would kindly suggest you care more about discovering a truth and worry less about the outcome. A key indicator that you are on shake moral or ethical ground is if you cannot allow conversation of your stance to take place. Note I said indicator and not a fact.

  237. “I would like to introduce you to a new word. Potential. Potential has value. What is the difference of a baby inside, and outside the mother at 3 months, 6 months, 9 months?”

    Meanwhile “potential” is only something you recognize if you think it bolsters your argument, otherwise there’s no time for such nuance.
    The difference of a fetus in the first two trimesters is not a born baby. The rights of the woman supersede whatever rights the fetus may have, although the fetus really has none until it is a living breathing person. A legal compromise has been reached with the third trimester.

    “Now you are treading onto my territory, a place you have obviously never gone and are relying on your Liberal rhetoric to pretend to know something. Rush, Hannity, and Savage have never gone out of their way to destroy a persons, their friends, family, or career. Hannity being thee most fair guy on radio or TV, gave a Democratic congressmen 30min of air time the day before the election because Sean had misunderstood something he said to be a racist comment. The congressman spent less than 30 seconds on the topic and proceeded to campaign for the remainder of the 29min and Sean allowed it.”

    Please, Limbaugh goes after anyone, particularly those in his own Party, who dares to step outside his Con Box. He mocked a man with a debilitating disease because he dared to speak his mind. Savage is well named, as you know; you are either being disengenuous or you don’t really listen to him. Hannity helped destroy the careers of everyone in ACORN through the lies and misrepresentation of Brietbart, and continues to give him a forum, in spite of Brietbart’s enterprises having been discredited again and again.
    Politics is rough business. Don’t make everyone here think you are a fool by promoting such nonsense.

    “As for the belief you and your Liberal party is clean, I have 2 words that blow your ass out of the water. Sarah Palin. Look how Liberals attack and continue to attack this person and her family, relentlessly, with no mercy and no boundaries.

    When your boy wild Bill was giving Monica the 7 bodily fluid test in the White House when he should have been honoring his marriage and doing the people’s business, you all couldn’t care less about a Presidents personal life. Cain has a few women step up and “claim” he did something, with no evidence, and you are all lathered up into a frenzy.. btw where are those women now? Where is all the proof we were going to see? Interesting huh?”

    Those of us of the Liberal persuasion don’t think a person’s private life, in the public or the private sphere, is of concern, as long as it doesn’t affect the job being done. It can be of concern if the activity demonstrates rank hypocrisy. Clinton never ran for office, nor did he serve, as a model of virtue and righteousness. As far as policy is concerned, he was probably the most conservative Democrat to serve in the Oval Office in the 20th Century and accomplished a great deal.
    The problem with this is not with Liberals, it is with the Conservatives who cast aside anyone (Newt being a notable exception, at least until very recently) who has the taint of “sin” about them. If Cain dropped in the polls after his controversies, who dropped him in the polls? Not Liberals, who would have loved to have a man so out of touch and confused as a Republican candidate. Now that Cain is out of the running he is no longer a story. I miss him already.

    I didn’t say the “Liberal party” was clean. As for Sarah Palin, her private life is of no interest to me. That she is an idiot does concern me, however. I don’t think she’s an idiot because any media told me so. I can listen to what she has to say and easily come to that conclusion. Again, she chose not to run and her popularity among her own support group has waned to the point even she saw the light and chose not to run. No one has “destroyed” Sarah Palin, she is a multi-millionaire and the kind of mega celebrity she has always desperately wanted to be.

    Regarding the Tea Party, you demand that all of the OWS movement be held responsible and condemned because of the activity of a few in a huge, worldwide movement, but give the extremists in the Tea Party a pass. Or are you claiming the Tea Party has no extremists?
    Thank whatever gods there may be Angle wasn’t elected, but enough of the Tea Party extremists were elected to bring governing to a near halt and quite possibly destroy the Republican Party in the process. But fortunately for them the public memory is the same duration of a housefly and the shenanigans of this past year will be forgotten. However, I am confident the extremists will provide plenty of activity between now and November.

    Finally the “lists” you keep demanding we respond to; I don’t care what people say they’re for or against, talk is cheap. It’s what they do that matters. This is why many Liberals are disappointed with Obama. But the alternative is disaster, so we are going back to where there is light, at least, if not as much heat as we would like.

  238. The real value to society of parenthood is adding functional educated individuals to the next generation, that is impossible if the mother is birthing a baby every ten months for years on end. Birth control is a good thing that most couples use, logical human beings do not elect Presidents, Senators, or other office holders based upon their opinions on abortion. Abortion is a very hurtful extreme measure that some women, because of their circumstances, are forced to choose. Candidates who use their heart ache to their own advantage are pure evil in my book. They are entitled to their own opinion, but campaigning on the issue indicates they are shallow, opinionated, and unqualified for the office they are seeking or any other for that matter.

  239. Folks, we’ve all traveled in this same bus down this same road and found that it ends with only enough room to turn the bus and circle the cul-de-sac until it runs out of fuel and we all end up walking home.

    I prefer we travel the scenic route while stopping at an occasional overlook and avoid the known dead ends that we are often steered toward.

  240. Logic is all i know what to work with in matters of law alaskapi. I feel the argument presented is to vague to be legislated.

    My personal feelings aside. A law should take all parties into consideration. The unborn child cannot defend itself so that leaves us to speak for it. To all rules there is an exception but I feel in the vast majority of cases that any law that excludes one group to the benefit of the other is bad law. I concede that the realized potential trumps potential but not to the point of exclusion.

  241. You commented, I responded, If you prefer that I do not address your comments then I will respect that and let yours be the final say.

  242. Interesting: States that allow same sex marriage compared to STATES THAT ALLOW COUSINS TO MARRY!

    http://juanitajean.com/2011/12/28/lookie-at-texas/

    In a town I lived in when my children were in elementary school two brothers married two (more or less unrelated but from the same ethnic group of immigrants) sisters just after WWII and had lots of kids.

    Of those kids a brother and a sister from each side married their first cousins, lived next door to each other and had lots of kids who are contemporary with my children.

    The genetic relationship of the second generation is actually closer than 1st cousin, they are effectively siblings but they are legally allowed to be married and more importantly to procreate.

    They are practicing members of a mainstream religion which frowns on contraception so despite having miscarriages and terribly deformed babies who died shortly after birth they continued having child after child

    Their surviving children, 5 in one family 6 in the other, had their own special needs bus. Only one child from 11 was in ‘regular’ classes the others were all Special Ed.

  243. Anon- PFesser’s argument for process includes notions of potential whereas the argument you seem to be making for potential makes it a stand alone issue.
    I would suggest that we squander human potential (and potential for humans) on so many fronts , in so many ways, the “potential” argument has major pitflals- esp as a stand-alone.
    PFesser has pointed to a couple of the problems with it as a stand alone argument which make a good deal of sense. Taking the “potential” argument to it’s logical extreme shows numerous holey-underpants problems with it.
    We all assume there is a THE logic and that people either have it or do not. I think we all build logical houses to deal with life and some are full of termites we can’t see.

  244. I see the Republican Presidential Candidates are upping the war on women/s rights. It is funny that they like all children born but then will not provide food or health care for them. Even dear Newt is saying he wants all third world countries to not use birth control thus increasing the starvation. Maybe they have a lot of toilets for poor kids to clean in third world countries.

    http://juanitajean.com/2011/12/28/the-fetus-wars/

    It was a testy event, with humans willing to kill each other over how much they love fetuses.

    There was crazy stuff brought by Michelle Bachmann who claims that President Obama wants to “put abortion pills for girls 8 years of age, 11 years of age, on the bubblegum aisle.” It is suspected that she means the morning after pill being over-the-counter, which, of damn course, President Obama and Kathleen Sebelius strongly rejected. But in Bachmann’s pretend world ….

    And Rick Perry had a Come-to-Fetus moment where he decided that rape and incest are a dandy way for women to have children because of something some woman said to him just recently. God only knows what she said but you can bet it had less to do with abortion than it did with money and power. He said otherwise ….

    I will suggest to you that as I signed that [Personhood] pledge … God was working on my heart.”

    Sweetie, God needs to work on your head, not your heart.

    And Newt Gingrich is starting to make Ron Paul look sane. Honestly, I don’t think Newt would be stable even if you mounted him on a tripod. Every time I head one of Newt’s new ideas about government, I feel like I’m wading in quicksand over hell.

  245. “At what point do you attribute the process is complete enough to warrant the potential to be worthy of consideration? 2 weeks ago a baby was born in the 4th month of pregnancy. By your extreme definition, they could do whatever they wanted to the baby until the 9th month, because it has no rights by your definition until the process is complete.”

    I said no such thing or anything like that. If you are going to make such irresponsible accusations, I would appreciate cites to back it up.

    My point is that this is not a black/white issue. We’ve thrashed this around a hundred times, Tex. There is NO point where you can say, today it’s a baby; yesterday it was not, because it is a PROCESS – a BECOMING, not an event.

    In cases such as this one, you have to simply decide at which point you are going to assign rights to the fetus, realizing that it is to some degree arbitrary. I have no particular point where I think that distinction should be made, except to say it is NOT conception, so once again, your comment above is inaccurate, and you knew that when you wrote it. (Honesty. You get respect from others by being honest. We need honesty if we are going to work problems out.)

    As of this writing, Roe v. Wade provides I believe a workable framework; it doesn’t give everybody what they want, but of course the problem is that both sides want everything, don’t they?

    I say give it a rest. We have settled law on the matter; let’s move on to something more pressing, like, say, whether the Republic is going to survive. Something trivial like that.

  246. Sorry PFesser, I don’t see how this addresses my question. IF you prefer not to take it on I understand completely

  247. No worries alaskapi, only a select few hold typo’s against people. No one is passing out grades.

  248. and this is:

  249. So this is not a baby:

  250. I think my potential holds up very well.

    I think that is an unfair argument Pfessor, something you are not known for. To take it to that extreme of preconception and use that for a basis of an argument is bunk and reeks of desperation.

    I will set aside your emotions and the insults that go with them and get to the heart of the argument.

    Process. At what point do you attribute the process is complete enough to warrant the potential to be worthy of consideration? 2 weeks ago a baby was born in the 4th month of pregnancy. By your extreme definition, they could do whatever they wanted to the baby until the 9th month, because it has no rights by your definition until the process is complete. Or does the change in location endow the potential with rights?

  251. Amen , PFesser.

  252. Many apologies for all the spellos in 8:46 comment!
    Wordpress comment box was doing its jumping-open-and-closed dealie and I couldn’t read what a mess I was making there..agh.

  253. “I would like to introduce you to a new word. Potential. Potential has value. What is the difference of a baby inside, and outside the mother at 3 months, 6 months, 9 months? ”

    Let’s carry that argument out a little, shall we? Firstly, there is a great deal of disagreement on calling a fetus a “baby,” (nice try) but for the sake of argument…

    What is the difference of a 6 month fetus and a 3 month fetus? A three month and a one month? A one month and a one day? A one day and a one second? How about that one-second old “baby” and the sperm and egg one second before? They have “potential” too, all they have to do is get together, right? Each has half the DNA, so by your logic each is half a person, since one second later it is a “baby.”

    Does that mean that the woman is committing murder by not getting pregnant each and every month? What about the poor guy, who in a weak moment actually masturbates and murders millions?

    No, I don’t think your “potential” or your “baby” arguments hold up. It takes a lot of things to make a baby, including the passage of time and the incorporation of nutrients supplied by Mom, assembled by the instructions in Mom’s and Dad’s DNA.

    I’ll introduce YOU to a new word: process. Pregnancy and the generation of a human is a PROCESS, not an EVENT – a process that starts with a little lovin’ and slowly generates another person.

    I know the simple arguments have appeal, but some things cannot be reduced to first-grade logic. If it were that simple, there would be no controversy about abortion at all, would there?

  254. James-
    It’s going to take a multi-faceted approach to wean ourselves from oil. Cheap to moderately cheap oil has affected how we build, how we transport ourselves, etc. Across America, we have built a huge interconnected set of systems based on cheap oil- each system will take changing.
    Here where stand alone power companies abound because of vast distances and small communities, people are doing tons of things to get off oil dependant electricity and heating systems.
    This is a favorite one of mine

    http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/gustavus-has-green-power-after-27-year-effort

    (Hydro power is not a panacea nor should it be considered in many instances. Oregon and northern California have many hydro projects which have directly damaged fisheries and peoples’ ability to make a living and feed themselves.)
    We battle Southcentral, Achorage and the valley, all the time here. Half of the state’s population lives in that small area and can take advantage of efficiencies available in sheer numbers of customers to pay for transmission infrastructure etc. The general mindset is that any of the rest of us looking for state support to get off diesel power generation etc should just move and quit taking ‘their”money. ANC would not exist without the wealth in resources from rural Alaska which flows into it along with the dollars for supplies rural Alaska spends there to supply itself so the mindset is aggravting.
    However the cold Climate Housing Research Center is working hard to come up with area pecific energy efficient homes,vet materials which can be made locally to cut huge freight costs to build and so on. They have built 2 rather extraordinary prototype homes in 2 different climates in recent years which point to addressing the oil-problem from a wholly different angle.
    There won’t be a THE way to address all the issues and every idea which comes along won’t be good but there are tons of possibilities and avenues and JOBS possible . The oil and energy giants point to costs incurred as we try to shift as terrible burdens partly becasue they would have to shift their own way of doing things or might get cut out of a new loop. We already pay most of the costs they yap about somehwere else so …?

  255. Thanks Simon. Of course the Democrats and conventional Republicans have elected some real prizes too. And again, none of those people were actually advocating murder.

    Cynthia, your links regarding religious belief etc and the brain are interesting in another respect. Some of my ancestors were so attached to their shamanistic religion that they were among the last people of Europe to be Christianised, When missionaries came to preach the word, my distant cousins killed them.

  256. Sorry distracting children. If you cannot find them I will re post them. Also on babies, to be clear,,what is the difference of the child at 3, 6, and 9 months to a new born child?

  257. Add 10 more arrests on the 28th of OWS people in Iowa, just sayin.

  258. Angle is the kind of politician favored by the Tea Party and other extremists

    By all means Simon, lets have you stand by your own words. IF you cannot find them yourself posted above, take on the 10 items the Tea Party is founded on and tell us, one by one, if you are able, what is extreme about their philosophy.

  259. The “rights” of fertilized eggs are superseded by those of the woman.

    I would like to introduce you to a new word. Potential. Potential has value. What is the difference of a baby inside, and outside the mother at 3 months, 6 months, 9 months?

    Again, a bit of projection here. Your list reads like the game plan of Fox News, Rush, Hannity, Savage and Miller. They have taught you the straw man argument…taught it to you, but not well.

    Now you are treading onto my territory, a place you have obviously never gone and are relying on your Liberal rhetoric to pretend to know something. Rush, Hannity, and Savage have never gone out of their way to destroy a persons, their friends, family, or career. Hannity being thee most fair guy on radio or TV, gave a Democratic congressmen 30min of air time the day before the election because Sean had misunderstood something he said to be a racist comment. The congressman spent less than 30 seconds on the topic and proceeded to campaign for the remainder of the 29min and Sean allowed it.

    As for the belief you and your Liberal party is clean, I have 2 words that blow your ass out of the water. Sarah Palin. Look how Liberals attack and continue to attack this person and her family, relentlessly, with no mercy and no boundaries.

    When your boy wild Bill was giving Monica the 7 bodily fluid test in the White House when he should have been honoring his marriage and doing the people’s business, you all couldn’t care less about a Presidents personal life. Cain has a few women step up and “claim” he did something, with no evidence, and you are all lathered up into a frenzy.. btw where are those women now? Where is all the proof we were going to see? Interesting huh?

  260. I believe these comments were intended for me as well, even though it was included in a response to Ghost Rider. Perhaps Anonymous is as confused about who he is addressing as is his nemesis.

    “233 confirmed police report. The most violent crimes we have laws for.”

    Answered ad nauseum. Re-read if necessary.

    “Financial backers from some of the most peaceful organizations we have on the planet such as.
    North Korea,”

    What “financing” did North Korea give to OWS, when it has no money to give? Yes, North Korea’s leaders applauded OWS’s efforts…so what? OWS does not consider Kim Jong Il’s economic system to be a good alternative to what we have.

    “Communist Party of China,”

    Better to have tube socks and cheap electronics from China than “financial backing”, I suppose. Anyway, again it is more cheerleading, uninvited cheerleading, than finances coming from China.

    “Hezbollah,”

    I searched for some information about such a “financial backing”, but came up empty, such a possibility was not even mentioned by the usual Right Wing screamer sites. Odd.

    “Communist Party USA,”

    Is this not a legitimate political movement within the laws of the US? You know, freedom of assembly and all of that?
    In any case, again, no evidence of “financial backing” in any search. Sympathy, moral support, yes. That is not a problem, unless one is scared of the ideas and alternative points of view of one’s fellow Americans. But fear is the currency of the present Right Wing.

    “Unions, Former ACORN workers,”

    You are a victim of your media favorites’ propaganda machines. Millions of Americans know what ACORN was really all about, and it was not what notorious liar Brietbart told you, no matter how much you want to believe it. Millions more Americans have benefitted by the Union movement, and know what that is really all about as well.

    “America Nazi Party,Black Panthers, Nation of Islam”

    Again, no “financial backing” to be found. Support from crazies, certainly, something no political movement can avoid; certainly the Republican Presidential primaries are evidence that crazy people can be given a bit too much credence.

    “Think that about covers that.”

    Not really, you left out the Vatican. Also such less vaunted supporters as Suze Orman, Larry Fink, Bill Gross, Jeffrey Sachs, Vickram Pandit and Ben Bernanke.
    Throw in dangerous radicals like 35% of the millionaires in the US and you have quite a diverse mix.
    But diversity is a bad word to so many Wingnuts.

  261. “Simon, I must have misunderstood. I haven’t time to go back and check so this is from memory. You cited Sharon Engle (SP) the Tea Party candidate as an example of one who threatened a life to counter the charge that OWS was violence-prone. I mentioned the other quotes to show that Engle was not acutually trying to incite a murder.”

    Permit me to clarify, then.
    My question was, what did Sharon Angle mean by “Second Amendment remedies”? Also, to whom and by what means did she indeed to deliver these “remedies”?
    Sharon Angle was a candidate for the US Senate. Is this anyone’s idea of responsible discourse? Not over the top metaphors remember, but a specific reference to a decidedly misunderstood Constitutional amendment which deals exclusively with the subject of guns, and no other subject?

    In a way, these questions are rhetorical, James. I understand there is no need to answer them; they can’t be answered any way but acknowledgement that Angle is the kind of politician favored by the Tea Party and other extremists, but fortunately not in this case by the majority of voters in Nevada.

    Your family research sounds quite interesting. Good luck with it.

  262. Missed this paragraph, and it is too full of delightful straw men and misrepresentation to pass up.

    “Kill the babies, they have no rights anyway.”

    Babies indeed have rights. When they are babies. The “rights” of fertilized eggs are superseded by those of the woman.

    “Rape, defile, abuse, murder, because the ends justify if the cause is ours.”

    This reads like Bush/Cheney administration foreign policy to me. If you are referring to Occupy, then this is an exceptionally stupid statement, unworthy of further notice, for reasons copiously outlined in other posts.

    “If they oppose us, and they run for office, show no mercy. Destroy their career, their friends and their families, and continue to do so even when they are no longer relevant, …”

    Again, a bit of projection here. Your list reads like the game plan of Fox News, Rush, Hannity, Savage and Miller. They have taught you the straw man argument…taught it to you, but not well.

    “Is it any wonder why the Tea Party is so passionate? To borrow your analogy Simon, Hitler has nothing on you guys.”

    The Tea Party’s manifesto has nothing to do with those items you listed in this post. Good thing, too, because the hypocrisy of decrying the “showing of no mercy” would be brought into clear focus by all of those posters of Obama as Hitler (speaking of) and with bones through his nose. But really, such signs are ultimately harmless; unlike the firearms irresponsibly brandished by others in the “movement”.

  263. Happy Holidays, Helen! You’re the BEST! You tell it like it is!

  264. *Accept at December 28, 2011 at 9:03 PM

  265. Simon, I must have misunderstood. I haven’t time to go back and check so this is from memory. You cited Sharon Engle (SP) the Tea Party candidate as an example of one who threatened a life to counter the charge that OWS was violence-prone. I mentioned the other quotes to show that Engle was not acutually trying to incite a murder.

    My point was that the Tea Party was almost totally non-violent while the OWS organization had a criminal element. I don’t believe they fostered violence and theft. I believe they didn’t police themselves very well.

    No disrespect to you, but I’ve lost interest in some of the older discussion. I am still plugging away at my family tree. I have been following the branches of male ancestors’ wives, and my mothers’. So far, the majority is Scandinavian, also Welsh and German with possibly a Jewish connection.. My mother’s ancestors may have been Vikings operating in the Outer Hebrides. She would have been mortified.

  266. What we can look forward to seeing a lot more of with 4 more years of Obamanomics.

    http://www.newser.com/story/135886/for-sale-in-pontiac-michigan-pretty-much-everything.html

  267. Ghost-rider, I except the terms of your surrender.

    I acknowledged that the Tea Party had some success,

    Historic success. Nothing short of that.

    It was the contention that OWS was violent in its organization, and its intention was to foment violence.

    233 confirmed police report. The most violent crimes we have laws for. Financial backers from some of the most peaceful organizations we have on the planet such as. North Korea, Communist Party of China, Hezbollah, Communist Party USA, Unions, Former ACORN workers, America Nazi Party,Black Panthers, Nation of Islam. Think that about covers that.

  268. Finally, this sentence from a post above should read like this:

    Everyone has written a lot and it can be hard to keep up with comments which are not responses to one’s own. I regret the error.

  269. Ghost Rider wrote the following:
    “My response it to your posts alone. I do not confuse you with anyone else.”

    Is this directed at me? If so, you are attributing statements to me I did not make. I may have quoted the statements in question, but the quotes were in quotation marks, were used to make clear what the other side was saying, and were followed by my rebuttals.
    So, if you’re attributing Anonymous’ comments to me you are indeed confusing me with him.

    “That’s three Simon, 220 to go.”

    You are addressing me directly here. If you are not confusing me with Anonymous, who is the one consumed with peripheral crimes he associates with OWS, then what are you talking about? I haven’t offered 223 of anything.

  270. “President Obama said ‘If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun.'”
    Do you think he literally meant gun?

    “SadHill News showed Daily Kos page dated June, 2008 showed a bulls eye on Gabrielle Giffords and a reporter said ‘she’s dead to me now.'”

    Did the reporter turn out to be Jared Loughner?
    I have stated Mr. Loughner was insane, my point was that those who support literal, not metaphorical guns at political rallies have much to answer for, particularly if we look back at this country’s history of political violence.

    “Sarah Palin mentioned reloading, and Mechelle Bachmann said she wanted her constitutents ‘armed and dangerous.'”

    And some have obviously taken this literally, thus they show up at political rallies armed, and certainly the danger is implied.

    “Years ago, Alec Baldwin said on the Tonight Show, ‘I think that people should go to Rep Harry Hyde’s home and stone him.'”

    Alec Baldwin is an actor, not a political official or candidate. I don’t pay any attention to blowhards like Ted Nugent, either. They bloviate but they have no real effect on policy.

    “An OWS sign read ‘This Revolution will not be privatized.’”

    You will have to help me; I don’t find anything violent in that sign’s language.

    “Don’t get the vapors, Simon. Those statements were hyberboly. Sharon Engles’ suggestion of ‘First Amendment remedies’ was made last year, I think. So far, only Gabrille Giffords was shot and many died, but the Daily Kos didn’t cause the tragedy. A sick mind did.”

    You are missing the point. Sharon Angles was a candidate for the US Senate. What are the “Second Amendment remedies”? If this is a metaphor, what does it really refer to?

    “Anon has provided a ton of ‘ground truth.’ That so far, the Tea Parties have been more effective than OWS at producing a coherent message and turning it into political power is fact.”

    Everyone has written a lot and it can be hard to keep up with comments which are responses to one’s own. I acknowledged that the Tea Party had some success, although its victories may prove pyrrhic to its supporters. That was not the issue being debated. It was the contention that OWS was violent in its organization, and its intention was to foment violence. I have explained the likelihood of criminal activity in such a large movement, you may find it and read it if you like.

  271. I thought I was clear. Perhaps not, that or your powers of comprehension are at a low ebb.

    I will not get into an idiotic Monty Python ” yes it is, no it isn’t” routine with you. I’ve much better things to do than carry on an infantile discussion over who wagged what on the courthouse steps.

    The original subject, if you will remember, was one of ego. You wished to change that and I wouldn’t let you.

    Sorry old boy, but I suffer intellectual indigence badly. I told you that in so many words, but then it went directly over your head.

    Gnaw on your bone and hold court as you wish.

  272. “You are right. it had nothing to do with it..i had moved on.’

    Wise move.

    “But you are welcome to go ahead and tackle my posts at 12:29, 12:36, 12:46 & 2:51.”

    No, I asked you about a few things, which you ignored. Good for the Goose, good for the Gander.

  273. Ghost-rider. I will do my level best to use more one syllable words I can so you can better follow the conversation. that was 233 police reports filed.

    The rest of your blather is just gibberish. You cannot, will not, engage in debate or conversation. You make excuses just fine though so I will give you that. Insults though need some work. There are several on here that can help you out in that department.

    Now if places like the LA Times and others I listed are not credible references then I cannot help you. Seems to me to be a flimsy attempt to retreat with whats left with one’s pride, but whatever excuse lets you withdraw with whatever dignity you have left. Did I look up the police reports myself? Of course not. This is a blog and I feel no motivation to fact check these news organizations so I can prove something to a second rate hack.

  274. We have already “started someplace.” Ethenol, admittedly not the most efficient bio fuel, wind power, switch grass, and even garbage provide fuel. Soy diesel also saves carbon and lowers our oil bill. Windy Iowa and the plains are great for wind farms.I have forgotten the exact number, but bio fuels save us about a hundred million barrels of oil a year. Atomic fuel also helps.

    Oil is still cheaper and easier to refine. The world economy cannot survive without oil. How would you accelorate the transition without damaging our economy?

    So you voted for Bush in 2000, and you have cheap shotted the shrub too? We have something in common.

  275. You returned the same agitprop I gave you, not quite the 223 sites you bragged of, but the point was to emphasize the automatic disregard of anything you hadn’t already decided was fact.

    Both sets of information were really propaganda. Did you not read the incidents? And you believed what was reported?

    You believed what you sent because you wanted to, not because of any empirical evidence to corroborate the stories.

    You disbelieved anything I sent you, not because you researched the incident, but because it didn’t fit your belief pattern.

    He said, She said? Is not, Is too?

    I give you the words of Saint Jerome : It is worse still to be ignorant of your own ignorance.

  276. And I also voted for him in 2000. I helped put him in office I can cheap shot him.

  277. The “cheap shot” was aimed at Bush and Company and as a tax paying citizen of this country I have the right to cheap shot him if I wish. Don’t take it personally.

  278. Iraq is another whole can of worms that I feel you are ill equipped to tackle so I will let your usual cheap shot slide. Your kids and loved ones maybe disposable to you. Mine are not. I would rather be over prepared than seeing one of our major cities uninhabitable for 200 years.

  279. Mine sees the potential of a threat before it happens, and decides to take measures to stop it before innocents die. Mine is the superior way. Mine is the compassionate way.

    Yes, one day Iraq may have weapons of mass destruction and may “fedex” them to us so we took them out before they could. Thank God for those with the foresight to stop it before it could happen! It’s just too bad those US soldiers who were killed or wounded and of course the Iraqis too. But we had to do it.

    Peace.

  280. poolman, I never said it was our greatest threat, but then if you didn’t make false assumptions you would never be able to post your flawed ideology.

    It is a threat. Nuclear proliferation in 3rd world countries makes in a greater threat. You kind is always the react after it happens. Mine sees the potential of a threat before it happens, and decides to take measures to stop it before innocents die. Mine is the superior way. Mine is the compassionate way.

    We cannot put starting somewhere in our gas tanks. We cannot put algae farms to use that don’t currently exist. When they exist, and they are viable..I am all for it. Until then, its cold outside, and I need heat now. I cannot provide for my family on a wish and a prayer. Good intentions do not digest well.

  281. It would be great if we didn’t have to extract oil or coal. I hope that day comes, but it isn’t here yet.

    And it ain’t gonna come if we donna start somewhere! The “all or nothing” attitude we have prevents us from moving forward or making progress.

    Peace.

  282. Keep beating that establishment MSM drum, Anon.

    You think terrorism is our greatest threat? You have not only been drinking, but also mixing and passing out the koolaid.

    How many deaths do you think we can attribute to terrorism in our “unsecured” land, say annually?

    Are you even aware that there are over 34,000 suicides and over 32,000 automobile related deaths in this country every year? Or that medical malpractice kills around 120,000 annually? Or that wild animals kill more people annually than terrorism does? Or that falling down stairs is much more common and attributes to thousands per year?

    Hell, even vending machines rival terrorists in how many folks are killed and maimed every year. All these things are much more lethal than the rare terrorist act and certainly don’t get near the media coverage or tax dollars thrown at it.

  283. Cynthia, I wish I had more time because you NOP, and Poolman etc are fun to argue with. I agree we need bio fuel and lots of it. It would be great if we didn’t have to extract oil or coal. I hope that day comes, but it isn’t here yet.

    We need the Keystone Pipe line but probably won’t get it. The oil will likely go to China. Canadian oil, no matter the quality is more dependable than oil from countries which don’t like us. More of the money we spend in Canada will return to the US than money spent in the Middle East.

    An oil pipe line has been under our farm for decades. The flood broke a natural gas pipe line near our home and a road was closed because of fumes, but valves stopped the flow quickly. I believe the same happened when high water broke an oil pipe line in Montana during our flood.

    The new route would not cross the Sand Hills and Ogalala Aquifer as originally planned. It is as safe as any other pipe line in the area. We won’t have it because Obama doesn’t want to offend the labor unions who want it and environmentalists who don’t want it.That is why he delayed a decision until after the election..

  284. Whatever….. But if we keep heading down the road we are going I don’t think anyone will want to come here. Problem solved.

    Peace.

  285. Yes, NOP, Herman Cain is smart. I know because he lived and worked in Omaha for a long time. He earned a MA in computer science while working full-time as a ballistics analyst for the Navy Department. He made Burger King profitable so Pillsbury sent him to save Godfather’s Pizza. Godfathers soon made money again. He and his crew closed restaurants and changed management practices. Later, he and some others bought the company.

    He sang “Imagine There’s no Pizza” to the tune of John Lennon’s “Imagine”at the Omaha Press Club.

    Cain was also Chairman of the Omaha branch of the Kansas City Federal Reserve Bank.

    He nearly died of stage 4 colon cancer in 2006.

    Herman Cain is a businessman, not a politician. I’m not even sure he wasn’t like “The Candidate.” Maybe he was trying to promote a talk show or something and his surge was a surprise. He may have a political tin ear and he may be ignorant of what happens in foreign places, but he is smart.

  286. The people coming across the border are looking for work and a better life for their families not to destroy the US

    You do realize that most terrorists come from outside the country, and by default must come across our borders to gain entry?

    If a terriorist or worker wants to come here they will come by boat or by a visa or the Canadian border, private plane or what ever. It is foolish to think otherwise.

    I have a link somewhere and I will find it but it blows this so far out of the water I think we are finally starting to see with proof you give your opinions not based on facts, but rather a unsubstantiated gut feeling. There was a study done published in the last 6 months that showed the vast majority were coming up from South America and through Mexico because of the lax security and ease of travel.

    ALL, not just the Mexican border, but all borders need to be secure. I know this might be news to you, but we are a nation of laws. Laws need to be upheld. If you enter the country by other than legal means, you need to be made gone. Since the problem has been neglected by the touchy-feel types for so long, we need to first secure, then evaluate what to do with the millions that are already here.

    Not that the original point of your comment was lost on me, or the glaring contradiction.

  287. Hard to protect against terrorist attacks, but is opposed to securing our borders.
    The people coming across the border are looking for work and a better life for their families not to destroy the US. If we made it easier for them to get work permits, fined employers for hiring illegals and took away “anchor baby” we would accomplish a lot more and cheaper than that wall will do. Not to mention the harm being done to the wildlife on the border but hey that’s not important.

    If a terriorist or worker wants to come here they will come by boat or by a visa or the Canadian border, private plane or what ever. It is foolish to think otherwise.

  288. When any of those become viable to sustain the masses…let me know Until then, build the dam pipeline

  289. James, you lost me when you said, Herman Cain was smart. I think nein, nein, nein. Anyhow I can hardly wait to see how the Iowa caucus goes, and after that I look forward to more Republican debates, so far they are almost as bizare as my housewives shows.

  290. Would this not be a better solution to oil, while we have the time to come up with solutions? While it may not provide all our engery needs it would certainly reduce the need for so much oil. And gives us a more healthy environment to boot.

    http://www.hemp-guide.com/benefits-of-hemp.html

    Since hemp is easy to grow through a process that in fact strengthens surrounding soil, the plant is a clear friend of the planet. Many also believe the hemp plant could produce a biomass for fuel that would burn cleaner than other well-known ethanol selections.

    http://www.hemphasis.net/Fuel-Energy/fuel.htm

    Hemp vs. Fossil Fuels
    Pyrolysis facilities can use the same technology used now to process fossil fuel oil and coal. Petroleum coal and oil conversion is more efficient in terms of fuel-to-feed ratio, but there are many advantages to conversion by pyrolysis.
    1) Biomass has a heating value of 5000-8000 BTU/lb, with virtually no ash or sulfur emissions.
    2) Ethanol, methanol, methane gas, and gasoline can be derived from biomass at a fraction of the cost of the current cost of oil, coal, or nuclear energy, especially when environmental costs are factored in. Each acre of hemp could yield about 1000 gallons of methanol.
    3) When an energy crop is growing, it takes carbon dioxide (CO2) from the air, and releases an equal amount when it is burned, creating a balanced system, unlike petroleum fuels, which only release CO2. When an energy crop like hemp is grown on a massive scale, it will initially lower the CO2 in the air, and then stabilize it at a level lower than before the planting of the energy crop.
    4) Use of biomass would end acid rain, end sulfer-based smog, and reverse the greenhouse effect.

    Peace.

  291. Speaking of a border wall…

  292. I understand the…whats in it for me…attitude. It is after all the Liberal way. Nothing in it for me other than a more stable economy. Fuel prices effect everything. Anything we can do to add additional sources of oil is a smart move.

  293. We have been itching for war with Iran for so long, they are even trying to establish a tie to 9/11. We’ll be there in no time and this is the place we will be destroying with our nukes and poisons.

    You keep sucking it in. Get a grip.

    How much does this job slot pay you?

  294. Hard to protect against terrorist attacks, but is opposed to securing our borders. For blocking new refineries, but against it being piped to where refineries already exist. Thinks it is more expensive to go 1000 miles than it is to go all the way to the Middle East. Has the attitude that importing less oil is the same as importing more oil and nothing is to be gained by less dependance. Giving money to a non ally is better than an ally. As long as the oil goes over someone elses homes, farms, land, roads, rivers, water, its ok. When it is ours, we suddenly become environmentalists. We cannot drill off our own shores, we cannot take it from our neighbors. China will buy the oil, and we will in turn buy it 3rd party at an even high rate. Ya this makes sense.

  295. I must apologize that my expectations of a potential president is a tad bit too high.

    The cost to refine tar sand oil is costly. To run a pipe line 1000 miles to me is taking the long road. The homes, farms, land, roads, rivers, water that will be disrupted or polluted must be considered. A break in this line could be difficult to find. And to protect it from a terrorist attack would be even more difficult. I can not believe the oil would be any cheaper than oil from the Middle East. We would still need to import oil so we would not be independent of the Middle East. To me it makes as much sense as building a wall on the Mexican border.

  296. BP pumped our GoM oil and shipped it overseas. There is way more politic and control in this than meets the citizen’s eye. Part of the entire pipeline/infrastructure projects proposed are to support our new colonial police state status. This is a divide of the nation north to south since the route goes to entirely to Texas. I don’t trust those at the helm.

  297. But you are right poolman, we should just keep supporting terror overseas and not support our ally to the north. I mean nothing bad happens overseas right?

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/showdown-u-s-fleet-warns-iran-that-closing-strait-of-hormuz-will-not-be-tolerated/

  298. NOP. Douglas Schoen of the Wall Street Journal (October 18) wrote the majority of demonstrators were employed, and they had supported Obama in 2008. 48% said they wouldn’t vote for Obama next time, and 25% say they would stay home. 32% identified as Democrats, and 33% say they had no party. 98% supported civil disobedience and 31% would approve of violence. Pollsters must have been walking around the tents.

    Yes, polls can be unreliable, but they are the best we have. They are like photos which fade quickly. People liked Herman Cain because he was not Romney, he was smart and said the right things. Then, came the women and his ignorance of things he should have known about world affairs.The polls showed he was poplar and they showed he was not.

    I’ll tell Rick Perry if I see him, Cynthia.

    Yes, the oil comes from Canadian tar sand, and it will also come from tar sand if we don’t buy the oil. It is wrong to extract such oil, but we must. We are like the plains farmers during the drought and depression of 1894. They ate their seed to survive.

    Iran has threatened to block the Strait of Hermuz if we tighten oil sanctions. We have told them in effect “close the Strait over our dead bodies.” I’d rather that Canadian oil goes here to lower our gas prices and make the gas lines a little shorter if we have a repeat of the oil embargo after the seventies Six Day War.

  299. Like you have more than proven, you are both not ready for prime time. But be of good cheer. If you practice with the right intent, you can only improve from this point forward.

    Peace.

  300. Oh so you are actually contending he didn’t misspeak and you think he considers Canada part of the U.S.? Really?

  301. Canada oil is from tar sands. Aside from the environmental toll, the processing takes 4 times as much energy. Middle East oil is purer crude and requires much less refining.

    But the point was Perry’s ignorance, and one you conveniently ignored. I think we have bailed him out of his idiocy too many times. Just the fact that he is still considered a potential leader is a scary thought. Rather Palinesk, imo.

  302. And we wonder why we are where we are today. The masses, just love their gottcha moments. They will die a long slow death just to get one more gottcha in, rather than focus on what is important. I call them the Jerry Springer acolytes.

    Obama, among his long long long list of failures, admitted his shovel read jobs, were not so shovel ready. Here we have an opportunity for some true shovel ready jobs, and Obama is politicizing it. While he is on a $4,000,000 vacation in Hawaii, While Nancy Pelosi is in a $10,000 a night vacation suite, the little people they represent would dearly love these true shovel ready jobs from this pipe line. The Middle East is ever unstable, and little things cause oil prices to raise all the time. What logical reason would we continue to deal with an unstable situation overseas with a people who for the most part want us wiped from the face of the earth? We could be buying from an friend to the north that would provide much more stability that the average American consumer would greatly appreciate.

    We should not disqualify good ideas based on hurdles. We should take good ideas when they come our way and put our efforts into overcoming the challenges. If anyone her can give me a logical argument why oil from the Middle East is preferable to oil from Canada, I am all ears.

  303. Follow the trail of money.

    Follow the money is right. They have a long way to go to catch up. Which side of justice are you on? Nevermind, you have already made your opinions known.

    Aside from money, contributions of medical supplies, food, legal help, and clothing, have come in from all over the world. This is a world-wide movement. The TP is only an American thing.

  304. Rick Perry in a speech to a group of Republicans says (paraphrasing)

    Every gallon of oil we bring down from Canada is one gallon of oil we don’t have to buy from a foreign country.

    And his audience applauded loudly in agreement.

    Okay….so who wants to be the one to tell him?

  305. “The TP chose to stage within the Republican Party. OWS, at present, refuses to stage within any part”

    Follow the trail of money. Donations accepted from the following groups to the tune of $500,000

    North Korea
    Communist Party of China
    Hezbollah
    Communist Party USA
    Unions
    Former ACORN workers
    America Nazi Party
    Black Panthers
    Nation of Islam

  306. Ghost-rider. I engaged you, I met with the information you requested, and you refused to engage. You can be the silver tongued devil all you like, but at the end of the day you either do, or you don’t do. Take me on, engage my ideas or don’t. Your personal observations of me may make you feel good about yourself, but ultimately accomplish nothing and do nothing but harm the progress of the conversation. Choice is yours.

  307. Oh James, we are miles apart, apples and oranges in the immortal words of Herman Cain. Wasn’t he the Republican front runner for awhile, whatever happened, I guess polls aren’t always reliable. How the devil does one poll people living in a tent?

  308. Its been fun, but I have work to do in the real world now.

  309. People are like Canadian Geese. Neither wants to exert themselves to change unless they have to. Canadian Geese only migrate if the food runs out or the water is gone. People change when circumstances force them to.

    You and NOP know history is filled with defining events which forced people to change. The Black Death and Alaric the Goth’s sack of Rome were just two. The fall of the Soviet Union is another. Many of the European welfare states have reached the end of the road, and they are struggling to impose spending cuts on people who are losing benefits and jobs.Germans, Finns, and others with strong work ethics and more fiscally sound governments resent having to help countries like Greece and Italy. The EU could disintegrate.

    We are on a similar path. A lower birth rate has imposed a higher load on workers who have to support pensioners, poor people and others benefiting from our governmental largess. Retiring baby boomers are costing us more money each year. Eventually, our interest and other costs will crowd out other needed expenditures. We will be like the proverbal family with maxed out credit cards.
    Our choices will be limited. Run away inflation or renouncing our debt might be all we have.

    If we are smart, we will reduce spending and obligations while we still can. It will hurt people and maybe our economy for a while. I think the normal human impulse is to do little and hope for the best. That is why I think little will change until we face an emergency like Europe’s. .

  310. Alaskapi, I only think both movements might have a deleterious effect on the two major parties. If the next election gives Republicans control of Congress and or the Presidency, and if Tea Party candidates play an important role they will have the power to impose their agenda on the US. That agenda includes reducing regulations which hurt businesses, and reducing spending.

    If their scheme is associated with better times, we will have created a new reality without extreme turmoil. It will be rather like the change to Reaganism. The Republicans will benefit and the Democrats will be weaker.

    Or, conservatives will over reach, too many people will suffer, and Republicans will return to where they were after Goldwater lost.

    An election retaining the status quo will help the Democrats no matter what they do if the normal business cycle improves the economy. People will want to believe everything is all right and the Casandra Tea Partyers were merely naysayers. When the economy sickens, the Tea Party will return.

    A poll of OWS showed only 40% planned to vote Democratic, so I agree the movement is “in real opposition the the Democratic Party itself.” However, labor unions, natural allies of Democrats want to usurp the movement and convert into a more friendly force.

    Democrats, including Obama praised OWS and some offered them aid and comfort. Los Angeles, for example faces budget cut backs because of costs associated with OWS. Unfortunately for the administration, they so publicaly spoke well of OWS that angry constituents are muttering about recalls.

    I believe OWS may hurt Democrats not by infiltrating the party but through voters’ associating Democratic praise with the movement. Republicans would make campaign ads comparing liberal Democrats and OWS’ s more extreme statements.

  311. I agree with alaskapi, also, we Democrats are keeping OWS at arms length. I know that I agree with them on certain issues, but I have never been a single issue voter, therefore I never defend them, that is not for our party to do. OWS is a protest group, they are most effective making us all uncomfortable, that gets us thinking in terms of what can improve and we apply pressure on government and, in this case, banks, industries, etc world-wide. I remain open minded, in fact I am quite curious where all these protests are leading. Life is interesting!

  312. James-
    I disagree about the effects of either the TP or OWS on the 2 major parties. The TP chose to stage within the Republican Party. OWS, at present, refuses to stage within any party. There is a general view that they more closely mirror Democratic Party ideals but the core group disagrees.
    Given the D framing of policy in centrist terms of the last 20 years at least I think the OWS is in real opposition to the D party itself.
    The impulse to declare our moment in history as the be-all and end-all in national and/or human history is normal, predictable, and fully human. It is also full of hooey.
    The assumption that we have to crash and suffer terribly to get on THE path again assumes a THE path existed which once and for all works for all of us.
    The desire to throw out everything and start over assumes similar shaky things.
    Parties reinvent themselves regularly for good or bad. We can mourn the loss of good sense and embrace needed change (or vice versa) but elevating it all beyond adjustments to method of conducting public business ? I don’t see where that has ever really worked.

  313. One of the things I said in at the Bachmann affair yesterday was an answer to the question “what do you think we can do to change our course” I replied we can do nothing. Little will change if a Republican takes over because we will muddle through as we have.

    The business cycle will improve the economy, and unemployment will fall, though maybe not to original levels. We still have the strongest economy and military in the world. Like a vacume, our economy will still attract other countries’ money because ours is so much safer by comparison. The EU, for example, is hanging by a thread. China, our savior, has serious potential problems.

    We, are like a drug addict. We can’t reduce spending to keep us solvent, because too many of us are dependent on government help. Should we stop or slow the flow of money, millions of people will suffer. The economy would crash again. We are not immune to insurrection.

    I believe nothing will really change until we dive into a Depression-like crisis. It is what jolted us into a welfare state because our leaders and citizens saw no other choice. Eventually, our debt will be unsustainable and on that day, our crash will be worse than anything we have experienced in our lives. That is when we will change the system.

    I told my wife how the entire restaurant became quiet as everyone listened to me. I also told her how I defended TARP , Bush’s and Obama’s role in it. She replied “YOU SAID WHAT !!!?”

  314. Alasaskapi, I have read similar manifestos but I don’t know if all OWS people agree with them.

    Some of the comments were good.

    “Start by reading the Constitution and Federalist papers. Its not the economic system stupid it is the government. The answer is not about scraping Capitalism, it is about keeping Congress under control by the people. ….And do not give me that crap excuse for doing nothing the the Sates will not respond or the politicians will not respond. Demand that they respond–tolerate nothing less!. You all should be occupying Washington and your state governments not Wall Street!”

    That was an unwitting statement of the average Tea Partier.

    Assuming that statement reflects the movement, how would they achieve their goals? No wonder they haven’t gotten much traction. Theirs is the definition of Hell.All they lack is little red books by Chairman Mao.

    I know what happened in Alaska, and you are right. They should have supported the original candidates or found better ones. The Tea Parties also helped elect Scott Brown who took the seat Teddy Kennedy held for years. Now, since he is impure, some want to run another candidate against him. If they do, they will probably let Elizabeth Warren take office back for the Democrats.

    I wrote in the beginning that the Tea Party was a powerful movement and though it was a force for good, because it stopped Obama’s juggernaut, it was also a danger to both political parties. I agree with NOP with a qualification. The Tea Party COULD be the death of the Republican Party just as OWS with that manifesto MIGHT destroy the Democrats.

  315. Personally I think the tea party is the death of the Republican party. And I also think that is a great pity, I believe in a two party system.

  316. The Ghost is still here boys and girls. If I had been taken to task, why didn’t you wake me and let me know?

    Just because I may regret poking you is no sign that I’ve lost interest. I poked you because you were being supercilious. You are still supercilious.

    I asked for your information and got information from Glenn Beck.

    I’m still waiting.

    PPS – Take me to task again and let me see if I remember it?

  317. http://www.nycga.net/resources/declaration/

    oops
    go see, James

  318. James- here there were no other TP candidates who might win.
    Miller winning the primary was a shock but the Republican party apparatus accepted it and supported him as the chosen party candidate.
    It was everyday people who freaked out over him.
    Enough so that our unknown-to-most Democratic nominee was rising so fast in the polls it looked like we might overturn a 40 year R hold on Senate seats and have 2 Dems in.
    The TP Express ticked off a lot of people with their throwing money around here and the more that came out about Miller’s fruitloop ideas and personal problems with any kind of truth, the more people freaked. When LM decided to run as a write in it was all over for the local TP.
    The Republican party here was stuck in a lot of ways throughout the whole mess.

  319. As a matter of fact, I’m not sure if even OWS as a group has yet decided its philosophical direction, so I couldn’t really criticize if I wanted to. I prefer a coherent message because it usually works.
    ——————
    James-
    Go see what they have to say for themselves. They have made statements. Whether one agrees with them or not, they have been and still are working out what they think and where they stand.

  320. Ghost-rider, you stepped up…talked a good talk. I took you to task and you folded. nuff said.

  321. I am tired of the blatant double standards and dishonesty of the Liberals that inhabit this place.They hate conservatives. So you list for them conservative values and ask them to explain what they hate. In response you get nothing on that topic, if anything at all. They say they hate the Tea Party. So you list out for them the ideals of the Tea Party and you ask them to explain what they hate, and again you get nothing.

    Then we get the whining and crying that those mean old Republicans won’t work together with us to change the world. Please, PLEASE Republicans, don’t do as WE DO…do as WE SAY. Old and tired.

  322. “Napalm in the morning. It smells like …victory”

    Alaska and several other states demonstrated a Tea Party weakness. They favored ideologically pure but bad candidates over others who might win. I think Republicans might have won the Senate if the Tea Party had been more choosy about the candidates they supported. In some areas, their success became their undoing.

  323. Ghost-rider-
    !!! :-)

  324. I’d really rather not resurrect anything. To tell the truth, I’m at a loss as to just exactly why I rattled his chain in the first place. Perhaps it was the condescending attitude or the patronizing way he answered a post.

    I’ve a weakness for poking sleeping dogs, skunks and egocentric twits that spans almost three quarters of a century.

    I fear that, like Col. Kilgore, I just love the smell of Napalm in the morning!

  325. Oh well.
    You obviously missed the various times I’ve disagreed with plenty of the liberal commenters here, maybe because it doesn’t turn into flap-city .
    Doesn’t matter.
    And doesn’t matter you don’t feel comfortable checking out what I asked. Was worth the question to see if you understood.

    The TP totally flopped here in presumably TP country. Joe Miller scared people so badly they made history with writing in Lisa Murkowski for Senator. Didn’t vote for her, don’t want her but still find it interesting how badly Joe upset folks here with his notions of what is or isn’t constitutional and wild allegations and plans about various things. We generally set some records for silly secessionists, militia goofs, the quiverfulls, and all- his constituency. Set a new record in running like h*** the other way at the ballot box- even after the huge $$s the TP Express poured into the race on his behalf and SP’s endorsement.

  326. Comparing the protesters to “hapless OWS” is progress. Earlier, Putin compared their insignia to condoms and them to jackals scrounging for crumbs outside the embassies.

  327. Cynthia, no I don’t approve of OWS methods and some of its message, as I also disapprove of some of the Tea Party’s views. However, that has nothing to do with my argument. As a matter of fact, I’m not sure if even OWS as a group has yet decided its philosophical direction, so I couldn’t really criticize if I wanted to. I prefer a coherent message because it usually works.

    I am only focusing on their effectiveness as revolutionary movements. It may change, but as of now the OWS has failed.

    We know a Russian protest movement is growing over a dishonest election and Putin’s intention to resume the presidency. A huge demonstration gathered in the snow this weekend, and as with the Tea Party and maybe OWS authorities under estimated while demonstrators over estimated their numbers.

    It appears to me to be a hybrid Tea Party/OWS movement. Their goals are still evolving, but they are better defined than the OWS movement’s. They also have notable and qualified leaders.

    Putin has become more conciliatory, because he knows he must avoid further inflamation. He is comparing them to OWS as ineffective protesters with no real goals or leaders. That and the OWS comment in Iowa further supports my claim that more people than I regard OWS as ineffective so far.

    If some of you listened to Assogattis by Sofia Jannok, you would mellow out. At least it works for me.

  328. I made a simple point. That being the TP model was superior in every way to the OWS movement. Non violent, organized, a clear and concise message and purpose. Their execution was incredible, and their results tremendous. Simon could not admit to any of that. He wanted proof, and evidence, and we strayed into various tangents, and eventually he wore me down and I tired of it all.

    Bottom line, the effort of the TP people was historic. Their ability to achieve change without violence while achieving that level of success has never before been accomplished by any other group I am aware of. Again all of these things should have been self evident, to Simon they were not.

    The fact you never have a bone to pick with a Liberal has me not trusting your motives or your intent so I apologize for not walking directly down the path you laid before me. This is as close to responding to that line of questions as I care to get.

  329. I’m not trying to resurrect that conversation anon. I asked whether you see the Straw Man aspect of your responses in that conversation after asking if you understand what that fallacy is.
    Simply that. Nothing more or less.

  330. Hey Ghost, nice to see you standing your ground….or not. I understand though. I actually really really do, understand.

    alaskapi. I had put that to bed as I considered the horse dead. I did not realize you were trying to resurrect that completed conversation.

  331. That’s three Simon, 220 to go.

  332. You didn’t list anything at 8:55 except a lot of irrelevant snark and assertions of having brought relevant facts to the arguments with 2 commenters.
    If you really want to see -go back and look at the whole of Simon’s remarks and think about whether you really did bring facts relevant to what Simon said .
    You brought facts and figures but they were not relevant to the specific argument and quite frankly look like a classic Straw Man argument.
    Go look at the expostion at the Fallacy Files too -if you really want to see it.
    I’m not going to argue OWS/TP with you. This is about style and method of argument. Period.

  333. The only difference, other than their philosophies, that I note between the Tea Party and OWS is one of them controls one of America’s major political parties. And I might

    And perhaps that small note nobody died at Tea Party rallies – what are we up to now at those progressive OWS get togethers? Nine deaths, many rapes, countless mob fights with police, and anarchy.

    But I too see OWS ’12 winning 69 new house seats for Democrats.

    And we never landed on the moon either.

  334. Nope I do not. By all means point out the ones I listed at 8:55

  335. ok- retract “trying to be fair”
    The bitches-on-a-rag and little-miss and all that crap is over the top and is escalating anon.
    Done trying to be fair.

  336. anon- I am still trying to be fair.
    It is a legitimate question.
    Do you know what the Straw Man argument is- really truly?
    It’s a very common way for people to derail in argumentation, sometimes purposefully, sometimes without understanding one is doing it.

    http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

    Some orators are so skilled at fallacious arguments that it takes a piece by piece look at their argument to spot many of the fallacies.
    Talking heads are usually less skilled and we mere everyday folks are usually pretty obvious in our flops.
    I’m seeing Straw Man in your latest set of arguments.
    Do you see it?

  337. Wow, personal attacks from a Liberal MC? Whoever would have thought a Liberal would do that? Why me. Thanks again for taking time out of your busy day to help me prove what kind of people 99.9% of Liberals are.

  338. And the condescending, sexist nature continues. Good god, I feel sorry for the women in your life. “Woman, git in that kitchen and make King Noah a sammich!” “Don’t worry your pretty little head about a thing, I shall do all of the thinking from now on.”

  339. You are so right, Noah. Shame on me for even thinking that I was on your level. Level of assholery and lying, that is. I mean, after all, it was you who stated that you would be leaving this site earlier this year, after “threats” were made to you, against you, in your honor, whatever. All of those big, bad liberals rounded up a posse, did they? Yet here you are, still crying foul that no one thinks you are all great and powerful.

    Please carry on, I do rather enjoy your flailing about. How do those personal attacks taste coming out of your mouth?

  340. alaskapi, you used to be fair. Those days have seemed to pass.

    Per Ghosts request, (sorry did you miss those) at 12:29, 12:36 and 12:46 I posted news links to back up my assertions. What straw man do you perceive there? None you say? Then whatever was your point little miss?

    At 2:51 I posted a response to Puppets statement. I listed out FACTS, (those are those pesky little things you normally don’t bother with) concerning that topic. What straw man do you perceive there? None you say? Then whatever was your point little miss?

    Please, whenever you have the time to get off your broom and join us humble mortals, enlighten me and show me the error of my ways and where I strayed from your holier than thou path.

  341. Quick! Everybody respond to the rants of Anonymous within 10 minutes. Why go out of your way to make an asshole and a liar of yourself? Ghost was harping on me at 10:43, 10:45, and 12:08 to post to his request. I did so and he vanished. Oh I get it. You are not able to form coherent and meaningful thoughts of your own…so you just spout of rantings like a middle school bully. Noted.

  342. MC-
    Truly laughing out loud!
    I don’t TOE the party line and couldn’t begin to TOW it but love the image!
    And just because it is uncommon wisdom, doesn’t mean it’s not wisdom :-)

    http://frozengrin.blogspot.com/2011/11/uncommon-wisdom-45.html

  343. anon- do you even know what the logical fallacy the Straw Man is?

    “A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.[1] To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

    if you search/google for The Fallacy Files you can find expositions of each common logical fallacy or “mistake in reasoning” .

  344. Quick! Everybody respond to the rants of Anonymous within 10 minutes! Otherwise you are nothing but a flimsy Liberal, only capable of towing the party line, nothing more.

    We can’t all post multiple times in a 30 minute period. Some of us have jobs and families that we enjoy spending face to face time with. Or we may even choose to ignore those who decide to consistently belittle the contributions of anyone who does not particularly agree with them and support their ideals.

    Class dismissed.

  345. James – I realize you and others do not approve or agree with OWS so of course you will find the faults. IMO you prefer a nice clear, coherent message and organized in a manner that will fit into your way of thinking. I understand this but this is a NOT a “CONSERVATIVE” protest.

    This is bigger than the TP rallies’ it is a sit-in/occupation and more of a grassroots movement. IMO the TP (not the orginal TP people) was organized, the messaging and the money was controlled by those in power who used the people for their own agenda. The TP protest may have been “controlled” protest but the people were never in control of it

    IMO The biggest crime of that Tea Party movement is in who they elected and the way these politicians plan to change this country.

    I do not believe anyone condones the “crimes” being commited at OWS we do realize if you put enough people together in this type of situation unfortunate things will happen. But it is not in the control or message of the OWS. I am able to look past the negatives and see the changes they are trying to accomplish. Change can be messy. And no, I don’t expect you to agree with me.

    Peace.

  346. It is a shame Liberals are so flimsy in their beliefs and abandon them at the first glimmer of trouble. Ghost-rider, so bold, fled without so much as a whimper. poolman, master of the hit and run, and the cheap shot. Puppet, so strong in conviction, then fades. Maybe common sense is a most potent weapon after all.

  347. According to the Associated Press, OWS people are coming to Iowa from as far away as both coasts to disrupt Iowa’s caucuses. One person said they need to do this because so far, “their message hasn’t gotten through…” They know, even if some of their defenders don’t .

  348. I like your comments, Cynthia. I’ve read the article before, and it does make one think. Who are we really? How much of us is our reaction to our environment, and how much are genetic predispositions given by Great Uncle Charley or Maude a thousand years ago? Why do farmers of different ethic groups tend to farm differently. Do most of us inherit or dispose of our family’s political or religious beliefs? Do genes play a role?

    Liberalism and conservatism are political and social constructs. They are not inherently “liberal” or “conservative” if the article about personality types is true. A “conservative” may cling to a “liberal” mind set in the face of changing information or vise versa.

    I would like to see the results of a comparison of business and non-business people.

    My mind had to be nimble today. I attended a Michelle Bachmann campaign meeting near our home. It was a lark, but things went down hill when a neighbor said the reporter should be talking to me not him. I refused. Later an advance lady visited with all of us. She stopped when she reached my table. I must have been talking louder than expected because I suddenly realized the restaurant was quiet and all eyes were on me. Some faces looked angry, so I resorted to less controversial things I thought we all believed.

    Then, they herded us behind Michelle as props for a campaign ad. Michelle must know it is falling apart. You’d never know it by her up beat manner I respect her for that.Its hard to be Michelle right now. She asked if I was going to vote for her, and I didn’t think it was the time to disrespect her, so I replied. “You certainly don’t look 55″, and that was the truth. She beamed and thanked me, as she went to the next person.

    People were still speaking to me at the end, and I met a cousin I didn’t know I had, but it could have been nasty as has happened before. My real life reputation is not much different than it is here.

  349. President Obama said “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun.”

    SadHill News showed Daily Kos page dated June, 2008 showed a bulls eye on Gabrielle Giffords and a reporter said “she’s dead to me now.”

    Sarah Palin mentioned reloading, and Mechelle Bachmann said she wanted her constitutents “armed and dangerous.”

    Years ago, Alec Baldwin said on the Tonight Show, “I think that people should go to Rep Harry Hyde’s home and stone him.”

    An OWS sign read “This Revolution will not be privatized.”

    Don’t get the vapors, Simon. Those statements were hyberboly. Sharon Engles’ suggestion of “First Amendment remedies” was made last year, I think. So far, only Gabrille Giffords was shot and many died, but the Daily Kos didn’t cause the tragedy. A sick mind did.

    I don’t like statements like those, but they are as old as politics. They usually don’t incite someone to kill.

    Anon has provided a ton of “ground truth.” That so far, the Tea Parties have been more effective than OWS at producing a coherent message and turning it into political power is fact.

    This isn’t over. The ultimate outcome is unknown. The possible harm or benefit to the two political parties and perhaps the US, is ripe for discussion

  350. But you are welcome to go ahead and tackle my posts at 12:29, 12:36, 12:46 & 2:51.

  351. You are right. it had nothing to do with it..i had moved on.

  352. “Sorry Simon, again we have to agree to disagree. I deal with things that have actually happened while you are living in the world of possible events.

    Interesting article debunking more Liberal mythology.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/fact-check-harry-reids-claim-that-millionaire-job-creators-dont-exist-thoroughly-debunked/

    What has this to do with the subjects we were discussing?
    The answer: nothing.
    But better to throw in yet another straw man in hopes of confusing the issue. Apparently you are accustomed to dealing with people who are easily confused. I do not have that characteristic.
    Now, tell me. Who was to be the target of Sharon Angle’s, remember a candidate for the US Congress (thankfully defeated, by what otherwise would have been an easily beatable opponent, had a sensible candidate made the cut), not some nut on a street corner, “First Amendment remedies”? And who was appointed to apply these “remedies”?
    You, perhaps?

  353. Me thinks the New Years Eve festivities have started early!

    IMO we are all individuals who are a product of our genes, up bringing, environment, experiences, education etc.; one size DOES NOT fit all. But as the human race evolved there was a need or a place for all types of thinking, personalities and traits (in moderation) in order for it to survive. It is not a matter of which is “right” or which is “wrong” it is just the way nature “programed” individuals for success of the race. We need to find a way to understand and accept our differences.

    The two following links I find very interesting.

    http://psychcentral.com/news/2007/09/10/brains-of-liberals-conservatives-may-work-differently/1691.html

    Liberal & Conservative Brain Differences?

    ….found that a specific region of the brain’s cortex is more sensitive in people who consider themselves liberals than in self-declared conservatives.
    The brain region in question helps people shift gears when their usual response would be inappropriate, supporting the notion that liberals are more flexible in their thinking….

    The work, to be reported today in the journal Nature Neuroscience, grew out of decades of previous research suggesting that political orientation is linked to certain personality traits or styles of thinking. A review of that research published in 2003 found that conservatives tend to be more rigid and closed-minded, less tolerant of ambiguity and less open to new experiences. Some of the traits associated with conservatives in that review were decidedly unflattering, including fear, aggression and tolerance of inequality.…..

    ….Linda Skitka, a professor of psychology at the University of Illinois at Chicago, said it’s possible the liberals in the recent study appeared more flexible than the conservatives because the population was skewed.

    “We’re more likely to find extreme conservatives in the U.S. than extreme liberals,” she said……

    http://pewresearch.org/pubs/859/what-brain-science-tells-us-about-religious-belief

    This is another very interesting article. While it is focused on religious belief it also gives insight as to how the brain works.

    Peace.

  354. In what way Puppet? I will list again the Tea Party mission statement, as they had the foresight to have a clear concise message. What of these things listed do you take issue with and deem a detriment to the Republican party?

    1. Eliminate Excessive Taxes
    2. Eliminate the National Debt
    3. Eliminate Deficit Spending
    4. Protect Free Markets
    5. Abide by the Constitution of the United States
    6. Promote Civic Responsibility
    7. Reduce the Overall Size of Government
    8. Believe in the People
    9. Avoid the Pitfalls of Politics
    10. Maintain Local Independence

  355. poolman, make whatever snide comments you like, but the facts are still the facts. I understand levity when faced with an ugly truth like this though.

  356. The only difference, other than their philosophies, that I note between the Tea Party and OWS is one of them controls one of America’s major political parties. And I might note, to their, that political party’s detriment.

  357. Tell it, Paul Revere!

    Communism is once again rearing its ugly head. :roll: Next thing you know all our stuff will be made in China and they’ll own all our assets. Better learn Mandarin!

    Comparing a party to an occupation is somewhat absurd, anyway. :grin:

  358. More food for thought.

    http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/conscience-conservative/2011/nov/17/occupy-wall-street-no-tea-party/

    ~ Let’s compare: TP for Tea Party, OWS for Occupy Wall Street.

    Arrests: TP – 0; OWS – over 3,000

    Injured Police: TP – 0; OWS – 9-plus

    Rapes: TP – 0; OWS 2-plus (they have started policing themselves)

    Damages: TP – 0; OWS – vandalism, breaking windows, throwing rocks at police and threatening people they don’t like.

    Disrupting Business: TP – 0; OWS – Lots

    Disrupting Traffic: TP – 0; OWS – Several

    Breaking the Law: TP – 0; OWS – too numerous to count

    Cleaning up: TP – Always; OWS – Cost $2.4 million

    They have received $500,000 in donations, they put this in the bank (don’t they think banks are evil?). They are planning to incorporate so the donations can be tax deductible (isn’t that capitalism, which their against?).

    The Tea Party is made up of Americans who think the government is too big, they are spending too much money and our taxes are too high.

    Occupy Wall Street is against capitalism, wants redistribution of wealth, to be taken care of by the government. More taxes for the rich. I’m sure there are some with good intentions; but most I have my doubts.

    The OWS supporters are: North Korea, Communist Party of China, Hezballah, Communist Party USA, the Unions, former ACORN workers, America Nazi Party, Black Panthers, Nation of Islam, most Communist countries. Others in the top 1 percent OWS are against: Michael Moore, President Obama, VP Joe Biden, Nancy Polosi and many more Dems in Congress.

    There is no real comparison between these two groups as noted above. It does worry me that so many Communist organizations are supporting OWS and that they are getting more violent. ~

  359. And Continued

    http://urbangrounds.com/2011/11/more-ows-crimes/

    http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/9747-ows-rap-sheet-growing-and-growing

  360. Ok. so your response to your source is what?

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/occupy-la-five-charged-with-crimes.html

    http://www.verumserum.com/?p=33359

    http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2011/11/15/man_suspected_of_exposing_self.html

  361. Post your sources.

  362. Ok those were responses to two different aspects of the argument.

    Sources being #1 Check out my comment at: By: Anonymous on December 19, 2011 at 6:55 PM

    As for debunking your source. I think I did that. Did you actually read their “proofs” yourself? I am interested in, if after reading them, if you still want to claim them or distance yourself from them.

  363. My response it to your posts alone. I do not confuse you with anyone else.

    So blow it out of the water again.

    Don’t avoid the issue. Post your sources.

  364. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/new-pic-shows-aftermath-of-man-tied-to-chair-by-cops-and-pepper-sprayed-until-he-died/

    When I read this article I had to read it again to make sure where this was at. I thought for sure I would see Iran, Libya, but sadly no, in the U.S.

  365. Ghost-rider interesting source. poolman already tried using that…source…and it was blown out of the water. I noted one claim of a guy who didn’t support Obama having a fight in a bar at 1:30am of being a affiliated with Tea Party violence. Sorry, but this is bunk and you know it.

    IF that is not enough lets go ahead and check out your source and show it for what it is. Any good source has a great title or catch phrase. I will have to edit one letter of one word to stay in compliance with this blogs rules of profanity.

    Look At This F*cking Tea Partier

    Quite a heading. It does give me that warn fuzzy feeling of a source I can trust for truthful information.

  366. Sorry Simon, again we have to agree to disagree. I deal with things that have actually happened while you are living in the world of possible events.

    Interesting article debunking more Liberal mythology.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/fact-check-harry-reids-claim-that-millionaire-job-creators-dont-exist-thoroughly-debunked/

  367. “I guess you are too smart for me Simon. Your double and sometimes triple meaning is a nice tool for giving one an escape exit no matter the rebuttal.”

    Your comprehension, or consistent lack thereof, is not my problem. There is no “escape” necessary.

  368. “Simon,

    You are an ideologue. That’s not pejorative, simply a statement of fact. You see what you want regardless of the circumstances.

    The TEA Party has been just as irresponsible and violent as you claim the Occupy people have been. The difference being that local governments and law enforcement have promoted the preponderance of violence attributed to the OWS people. The TEA Party element, on the other hand, has done their violence without external help.”

    I believe you have me confused with someone else. Or perhaps you are reading the posted quotes by others to whom I am responding. Or you have attributed the above quote to me, erroneously.
    I may indeed be an “ideologue”, but not in the direction you seem to think.

    “A ‘gun’ is nothing more than a tool. How it is employed is determined by it’s user.

    Comprehension is the key. Look it up.”

    Yes, but the function of a gun, as I stated, is to kill, either humans or something else. If target practice is the primary use for handguns, I would suggest a pellet gun or bb gun can have the same purpose, and be less deadly to everyone/everything else.

  369. http://latftp.com/category/tea-party-violence/

    Document yours.

  370. Ghost-rider, I have 233 arrest records, many of them violent felonies. Where are yours?

  371. Ahh just the best of us at these OWS events. This is how we all should spend our Christmas day. Leading by example are….

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/female-occupy-nashville-protesters-caught-in-all-out-brawl-on-christmas-day/

  372. Simon’s an ideologue and Anon/Noah isn’t?
    They both are? Neither is?
    Anon/Noah is and Simon isn’t?
    Voting for latter here…

  373. Simon,

    You are an ideologue. That’s not pejorative, simply a statement of fact. You see what you want regardless of the circumstances.

    The TEA Party has been just as irresponsible and violent as you claim the Occupy people have been. The difference being that local governments and law enforcement have promoted the preponderance of violence attributed to the OWS people. The TEA Party element, on the other hand, has done their violence without external help.

    A “gun” is nothing more than a tool. How it is employed is determined by it’s user.

    Comprehension is the key. Look it up.

  374. I guess you are too smart for me Simon. Your double and sometimes triple meaning is a nice tool for giving one an escape exit no matter the rebuttal.

  375. “Simon, on guns. your wrong, I know it, common sense know it. Just going to have to agree to disagree, since you keep skirting the issue and lack the honestly to admit it. Again it comes down to the people you are talking about. Tea Party, responsible, non violent people. No problems here. OWS, rape, game rape, murder, and hundreds of more crimes, (yes I understand that per the size of the protest you allow for these felonies), I can see where you get nervous. In the name of Liberalism you with excuse, or make exceptions for, any and all crimes. Because you dislike the Tea Party, having a gun, at least by the measure of the attention you give it, is a far worse crime than using it on a human being to end their life. Lets put this horse to rest.”

    My comment above partially answers this question (yet again). No issue is being “skirted”. I do not “dislike” the Tea Party, I actually could not care less about them; although I do have the intellectual honesty to know that they and OWS have a few concerns in common regarding the money governing us today.
    No one is “allowing” for felonies. You make the same argument over and over, in spite of rebuttal after rebuttal. This is not debate, it is the Argument Clinic.

    We will not “agree to disagree” until you stop misrepresenting the views presented and stop propping up straw men in lieu of a cogent response.

    “Simon, you are what you are. You follow the party line exactly as you should. I don’t know why it always is this way with Liberals, but it is. If you were not feeling desperate you would not have felt the need to make personal observations about me. Simple as that my good man. No worries, I am used to dealing with people like you and I am more than happy to continue to deal with you within those limitations.
    So by this statement all I would need is to point out one individual who has to make a liar of you as well. I would copy your own post if it wasn’t so redundant as my proof, so lets consider my mention of it good enough.”

    My meaning eludes you, as it so often does. I did not say only you made “personal comments”, I said you allow only yourself to do so, and when someone else does it you complain and sniffle like a child. You will notice I have not concerned myself with what you say about me, because it is irrelevant, as I have mentioned several times.
    But then a great deal is overlooked or not clearly comprehended by you. I have given you credit for being able to understand simple facts; and finally you admit get the statistical difference re: the numbers, location and time duration of the protests, but since it doesn’t fit your model it is dismissed. It doesn’t change the facts. Odd, too, that it required an inordinate amount of time to get that through to you, and one can be surprised you failed to take those obvious differences into consideration before you made such an easily obliterated argument.

  376. “Whose life was threatened? Who did they threaten. Not your imaginings, give me specific acts of violence perpetrated by these individuals.”

    And finally, an addendum to this comment. Does the word “implied” exist in your vocabulary? I used in this context. Who was receiving the implied threat? In answer, another question; to whom was Sharon Angle referring when she threatened “first amendment solutions” if she and her ilk were not elected? What was the “message” to which you yourself referred in an earlier post?

  377. Simon, on guns. your wrong, I know it, common sense know it. Just going to have to agree to disagree, since you keep skirting the issue and lack the honestly to admit it. Again it comes down to the people you are talking about. Tea Party, responsible, non violent people. No problems here. OWS, rape, game rape, murder, and hundreds of more crimes, (yes I understand that per the size of the protest you allow for these felonies), I can see where you get nervous. In the name of Liberalism you with excuse, or make exceptions for, any and all crimes. Because you dislike the Tea Party, having a gun, at least by the measure of the attention you give it, is a far worse crime than using it on a human being to end their life. Lets put this horse to rest.

    Puppet, I went to one Tea Party event for a couple of hours. The average age I would guess to be 35-50 range. If memory servers I would say 25% made up children to 20 and 65 and over with the remainder being between those two age brackets.

    Simon, you are what you are. You follow the party line exactly as you should. I don’t know why it always is this way with Liberals, but it is. If you were not feeling desperate you would not have felt the need to make personal observations about me. Simple as that my good man. No worries, I am used to dealing with people like you and I am more than happy to continue to deal with you within those limitations.

    “And I note that it is you alone who has the run of “personal observations”

    So by this statement all I would need is to point out one individual who has to make a liar of you as well. I would copy your own post if it wasn’t so redundant as my proof, so lets consider my mention of it good enough.

    Kill the babies, they have no rights anyway. Rape, defile, abuse, murder, because the ends justify if the cause is ours. If they oppose us, and they run for office, show no mercy. Destroy their career, their friends and their families, and continue to do so even when they are no longer relevant, if only to teach others the price for not being Liberal. Is it any wonder why the Tea Party is so passionate? To borrow your analogy Simon, Hitler has nothing on you guys.

  378. 4:00 pm, you sound angry. But thanks again for showing everyone else on here how right I am about Liberals being the party of personal attacks. So next time you wonder why we don’t have good people in government, as a Liberal.

  379. “As to your last paragraph, all I can say is thank your again for making personal observations and proving once again Liberals are all about attacking the messenger when they are handed their verbal ass. Sad but true story that plays itself out over and over again on this blog.”

    My good man, you have handed no one anything, never mind an ass. Your arguments have proven empty time and again, and that you ignore the substance of the rebuttals is proof enough of that.
    And I note that it is you alone who has the run of “personal observations”, but it is off-limits to anyone else. You make the choice of using sexist language and references. Don’t “attack the messenger” when such crap is pointed out as the offense it is. Why stay here and whine about how your points of view are received? Odd, it seems to me.

  380. So are you trying to say tea party participants are more virtuous? Personally, I think think they are just a older, more worn out crowd and they tend to be stuck in the webbing of their lawn chairs. Are any of them under seventy? I’m not sure anyone here is endorsing the OWS group, but most of us, I think, are keeping an open mind.

  381. “Whose life was threatened? Who did they threaten. Not your imaginings, give me specific acts of violence perpetrated by these individuals.”

    It is irresponsible for anyone to openly display firearms at political rallies. This really has to be explained to you? Really?
    I don’t believe it does, I believe you are being purposely obtuse.

    “List all the crimes committed by the Tea Party. I listed out many already done by OWS. 233 reported, on record, an estimated 1000-1200 unreported. First obvious comparison is, between these two groups OWS is by far the more violent group. These crimes were not just run of the mill crimes, these were very serious felonies many carrying mandatory life sentences. My second question is, how many crimes need to be committed before we can say they this is a problem? Before we can establish this fabled connection you claim does not exist. I say hundreds of crimes makes the cut. I am curious where you draw the line.

    Tea Party held protests, but no one died or was raped. It was all quite peaceful and no one was adversely effected by their activities. OWS cannot claim the same. Many small business owners claim they had significant income loss due to protestors. Many business owners who supported them initially with use of their facilities and free food were later attacked when they stopped handing out freebies. The list of disparities between the two groups is tremendous. Do elements of the OWS movement exist that did not partake in these activities? Absolutely.”

    My god, you are tiresome. I have explained to the statistical (no, I am not reducing the victims to statistics, but you know that, too. You may think such a comment makes a dandy polemical weapon, but in order to brandish it you must address “collateral damage”, and since you don’t, you render your “weapon” irrelevant) probability of crime, of all kinds occurring in large groups together for long periods of times, mostly in big cities. Of course, one crime is a problem; that is another of your endless supply of straw men, as no doubt, your supply of unsubstantiated anecdotes.
    The “violent” tag you put on OWS is apparently all you have, and it has been weighed and found bankrupt each time you have presented it. Or, as I noted, you are a corporatist, cheering on the Corporatocracy.
    Ignoring the arguments presented to you and repeating the same tired polemics is hardly what makes for intelligent debate.

  382. Hope everyone had a Great Christmas…….I did……
    Just wondering why the pipeline(creating jobs for awhile) is such a bad idea but ARRA (reparing roads) was so good…….only thing I can come up with is that the pipeline isn’t “green”…….like Solyndra….
    Like Rush said….”Obama will loose campaign contributions from either the enviromentals (against) or the unions (for) once he makes a decision…..

  383. Q: What does your daddy do?
    A: He spends all his time on the computer.
    Q: Is he a programmer?
    A: No.
    Q: Is he a writer?
    A: Kind of.
    Q: What do you mean, kind of?
    A: He’s a blogger.
    Q: He has a blog? Cool! What’s his blog about?
    A: He doesn’t have one.
    Q: How can he be a blogger and not have a blog?
    A: He isn’t really into that.
    Q: I’m confused.
    A: Mostly he hangs out on other blogs.
    Q: Like hunting blogs?
    A: Um, no.
    Q: Other guys blogs?
    A: Um, no.
    Q: Well what kind?
    A: He just likes to dikk up other people’s blogs.
    Q: Why?
    A: He doesn’t say.
    Q: Well he must have a purpose, right?
    A: Not really.
    Q: Dude, that’s embarrassing.l
    A: Can we talk about something else?
    Q: Dude, sorry. Yeah, how ’bout those Lions making the playoffs?

  384. Oh and its not lost on anyone poolman you went after my spell-check error rather than anything of substance. It is the Liberal way, the cheap shot because you have no verbal leg to stand on. Class dismissed.

  385. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/25/gary-boy-7-shot-in-the-he_n_1169636.html

    A 7-year-old boy was listed in critical condition Sunday after being shot in the head while attending a Christmas gathering in Gary, Ind.
    Leonard Cobb was reportedly playing a game in the living room during a family celebration when shots were fired into the home from outside, the Chicago Sun-Times reports. A 36-year-old man was also wounded in the incident.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/25/christopher-sullivan-us-soldier-paralyzed-shot-homecoming-party_n_1169294.html

    A decorated Army soldier recovering from injuries suffered in a suicide bombing in Afghanistan has been shot at his homecoming party, and family members say he’s paralyzed and in critical condition.
    Christopher Sullivan, 22, was shot late Friday while trying to break up a fight between his brother and another man at a San Bernardino, Calif., residence.

    Also –

    Of all the websites targeted by NYC’s undercover investigation, Craigslist had the highest percentage of sellers willing to commit a felony by selling a gun to someone who said they’d probably fail a background check — a stunning 82 percent of sellers the investigators contacted.

    Ironically, Craigslist is also the only site in the investigation that doesn’t allow sales of firearms. It’s clear that more oversight is badly needed.

    Peace.

  386. shame poolman you cannot admit that was a rather lame link you gave. I am surprised your standards have fallen so that you have taken to using that kind of drivel to support your always weak arguments

  387. Wow. I wasn’t aware public deification happened at OWS or that it was actually a crime. I’ll let Jesus know, though I doubt if He’ll be operating as defenselessly as the last time. :wink:

  388. Anon- yup.
    Sure do.
    Kinda like reminding myself everytime I step out the door during the summer that it’s bear season. Not so many surprises then.
    Here, where there are few surprises it serves a different purpose.
    Just reminding myself not to take myself, you, or anyone else too seriously. The blog owners don’t, thank heavens, which is one of the reasons I like to stop by here. Sometimes the BS gets kinds deep and reminding myself it’s a cyber parlor, with cyber pie-slinging amongst people who don’t know each other just makes all the aggravation fall away.

  389. alaskapi, you have that message on auto repeat?

  390. Jurors convicted Carnesville resident Larry Morgan, 39, of aggravated assault and two counts of aggravated battery this week for smashing several bones in the victim’s face with a pool cue on Jan. 31, 2009 — a few days after Obama’s inauguration. Deliberations took only an hour.

    The single blow, which broke the pool stick in half, happened about 1:30 a.m. at Will Henry’s Tavern in Stone Mountain, said Assistant District Attorney Jennifer Taylor, who prosecuted.

    This is what they call Tea Party violence. Compare this to rapes, murder, public deification, child endangerment, and various other felonies actually done at the OWS events.

  391. Craig- I’m glad you popped in. Hoping this next year is much better for you and yours.
    And joining in wishes others made.
    Thank you Helen and Margaret for this place to shoot our cyber mouths off, for good or ill.
    And for the accidental and interesting intersections of ideas and personalities which happen here.
    And even the well-you-know . It gets tiresome but there’s enough interesting stuff going on that the pie-throwing just seems part of the background to it all.

  392. Anonymous, apologist for sexists everywhere.

  393. poolman, apologist for gang rape and murder… noted.

    Interesting website. It is someone who (A) has a personal agenda and (B) Fails to link the few I read to the tea party and of what I read did not even occur at events. It appears to be anyone who was found at a Tea Party event had background checks performed on them, and if they did something had their actions attributed to the Tea Party.

    So your contention that these acts on this website you posted are as bad or worse than gang rapes and murder? Quite possibly your most pathetic post to date.

  394. List all the crimes committed by the Tea Party.

    We had four republicans resign after death threats from tea partiers. That is just here in AZ, I don’t know about other parts of the country. They were associated with Russel Pearce, our resident white supremacist candidate that was recently recalled.

    But there is a website that has been keeping up with the crimes associated with the tea party. I think they have most of the newsworthy links and probably they are a very “liberal” source, but since you can’t seem to find them, thought I’d help…

    http://latftp.com/category/tea-party-violence/

    Just because plenty of OWS people have been arrested is not indicative of the OWS people being criminal. Have you seen the police forces brought to these “protests”? Full riot gear and trained by Homeland Security. The OWS people ARE a threat to the status quo, whereas the TP consists mainly OF the status quo. Many hundreds have been arrested for the crime of “peaceful assembly” as cities enact curfews and restrictions to shut down free speech and expression.

    But I don’t expect you to grasp that truth, seeing as so many other obvious(to me) truths slip through that very grasp.

  395. Interesting, desperate, but ultimately pathetic.

    http://standwitharizona.com/blog/2011/12/19/eric-holder-pulls-race-card-critics-attacking-me-and-obama-because-were-black/

  396. As to your last paragraph, all I can say is thank your again for making personal observations and proving once again Liberals are all about attacking the messenger when they are handed their verbal ass. Sad but true story that plays itself out over and over again on this blog.

  397. Whose life was threatened? Who did they threaten. Not your imaginings, give me specific acts of violence perpetrated by these individuals.

    “Where I disagree with you is with your implied contention that OWS existed to foment violence (trying to save time here, so that I don’t need to come back and clarify something yet again; in your exaltation of Tea Party “non violence” you are implying that is not a characteristic of OWS)”

    List all the crimes committed by the Tea Party. I listed out many already done by OWS. 233 reported, on record, an estimated 1000-1200 unreported. First obvious comparison is, between these two groups OWS is by far the more violent group. These crimes were not just run of the mill crimes, these were very serious felonies many carrying mandatory life sentences. My second question is, how many crimes need to be committed before we can say they this is a problem? Before we can establish this fabled connection you claim does not exist. I say hundreds of crimes makes the cut. I am curious where you draw the line.

    Tea Party held protests, but no one died or was raped. It was all quite peaceful and no one was adversely effected by their activities. OWS cannot claim the same. Many small business owners claim they had significant income loss due to protestors. Many business owners who supported them initially with use of their facilities and free food were later attacked when they stopped handing out freebies. The list of disparities between the two groups is tremendous. Do elements of the OWS movement exist that did not partake in these activities? Absolutely.

  398. My apologies, I inadvertently post these comments twice; a technical failure on my port. Brilliant though they are, there is no need for them to appear twice. I have found no way to delete comments from this blog, if someone else can do so, the blog hosts, for example, please remove the repeats.
    Thank you, and again my apologies.

  399. “The tactics used by the Tea Party, to gather, protest and demonstrate, taking into account their non violence approach and the scope of their accomplishment, do you feel this was a historic and most impressive movement, and do you feel this is how protest should be conducted? (Note we are taking out any consideration of agenda, or any other touchy-feely stuff)”

    It is surprising the lengths to which you will go to have someone agree with you. I agree that the Tea Party was “historic”; I never said it was not. I agree it accomplished some of its goals, I never said it did not. I don’t agree with many of its goals. Some, when they are sincere, I do agree with.

    Where I disagree with you is with your implied contention that OWS existed to foment violence (trying to save time here, so that I don’t need to come back and clarify something yet again; in your exaltation of Tea Party “non violence” you are implying that is not a characteristic of OWS). There may have been peripheral criminal activity (as previously noted ad nauseum, not surprising given the numbers of people, many thousands, duration of events, many weeks, and locations, large cities), but OWS was a non-violent protest. At least until the cops showed up in full body armor and those cans of “food product” designed to burn a recipient’s eyes, more effectively when said recipient is seated on the ground. The two groups have some of the same grievances. Your obsession with the crimes reported, when violent crime was not the intent of the movement, suggests a desperation to discredit a movement with which you should, unless you are a corporatist who believes the US should be the corporatocracy many seem to be determined to make it, find considerable simpatico.

    “Just a bunch of bitches on the rag, I could give a dam anymore. At one point I was foolish enough to think there was an even chance for civilized discourse. Tex had it right. They are here to circle jerk and tell each other how right they are, the truth has no place here or in their lives. As I said I gave up. Just going to do my do and let em cry about it.”

    My god, what a whiner (and a sexist one, as well). Anon, wherever you go, to whomever you speak, there are always going to be those who evaluate your declarations and find them wanting. Some, as in this case, may try to discuss the matters with you and offer some alternative to your version of “truth”. One wonders why you would waste all of your obviously valuable time (your workers may wonder why the boss is spending so much time on a blog comments page while they have to carry his load, perhaps that is why they do other things at work; the standard is being set by the leader) in a debate if you only want your views and the fallacies of your talking points echoed back to you. Right Wing blogs may suit you better.

  400. “Simon. I don’t need to know all of them.”

    Someone needed to know Jared Loughner.

    “Maybe Japan would be more suited to your belief system. It is a flawed argument to promote disarming the public because we have ‘some’ who would misuse it.”

    Japan certainly has managed to create a civilized society, but their situation, culturally, historically and geographically, is considerably different from our own.
    But in any case, nowhere have I stated anything about “disarming the public”. I was talking about the wisdom of, or lack thereof, guns at political rallies. This is obvious to anyone with the slightest sense of history, never mind anyone on this site who can read and comprehend what they are reading.

    “Obviously the guns were not for hunting deer, Simon. Don’t be a fool. The point was to send a clear message. Did you get the message?”

    You wrote this:
    And we know hunters don’t exist. You do know far more deer alone are killed than humans?

    You brought deer into the mix, I suppose to make the typically irrelevant point in this case (which is about guns at political rallies…it is finally dawning on me how much has to be spelled out to you), that guns had other uses. Elsewhere, of course, I stated that guns had their place, but since the existence of such a statement doesn’t permit you to make broad stereotyped generalizations, you ignored that.

    Then you talk about “the message”.
    So let’s take a look at that. What is “the message” of brandishing firearms at a political rally, as opposed to a shooting range or a hunting ground? I suggest the message is clear. It is a message of irresponsibility and an implied threat. Madmen like Loughner have free access to multi-capacity firearms and fools such as the gunslinger at an Obama rally can openly wear weapons to make a point that…what? They can act irresponsibly and tacitly threaten the lives of anyone with whom they disagree or if they don’t like the outcome of an election? And, very unfortunately, they aren’t limited to the certifiably insane or questionably sane. Sharon Angle comes to mind (well perhaps she does belong in the questionably sane category, after all).
    This is what I have been trying to get across to you, and if you do not understand it you lack either the intelligence or the intellectual honesty to do so. There is a time and a place for anything legal. Given the history of political violence in this country alone, political rallies are not the place for guns. Only fools, or disingenuous trolls, claim otherwise.

  401. “Simon. I don’t need to know all of them.”

    Someone needed to know Jared Loughner.

    “Maybe Japan would be more suited to your belief system. It is a flawed argument to promote disarming the public because we have ‘some’ who would misuse it.”

    Japan certainly has managed to create a civilized society, but their situation, culturally, historically and geographically, is considerably different from our own.
    But in any case, nowhere have I stated anything about “disarming the public”. I was talking about the wisdom of, or lack thereof, guns at political rallies. This is obvious to anyone with the slightest sense of history, never mind anyone on this site who can read and comprehend what they are reading.

    “Obviously the guns were not for hunting deer, Simon. Don’t be a fool. The point was to send a clear message. Did you get the message?”

    You wrote this:
    And we know hunters don’t exist. You do know far more deer alone are killed than humans?

    You brought deer into the mix, I suppose to make the typically irrelevant point in this case (which is about guns at political rallies…it is finally dawning on me how much has to be spelled out to you), that guns had other uses. Elsewhere, of course, I stated that guns had their place, but since the existence of such a statement doesn’t permit you to make broad stereotyped generalizations, you ignored that.

    Then you talk about “the message”.
    So let’s take a look at that. What is “the message” of brandishing firearms at a political rally, as opposed to a shooting range or a hunting ground? I suggest the message is clear. It is a message of irresponsibility and an implied threat. Madmen like Loughner have free access to multi-capacity firearms and fools such as the gunslinger at an Obama rally can openly wear weapons to make a point that…what? They can act irresponsibly and tacitly threaten the lives of anyone with whom they disagree or if they don’t like the outcome of an election? And, very unfortunately, they aren’t limited to the certifiably insane or questionably sane. Sharon Angle comes to mind (well perhaps she does belong in the questionably sane category, after all).
    This is what I have been trying to get across to you, and if you do not understand it you lack either the intelligence or the intellectual honesty to do so. There is a time and a place for anything legal. Given the history of political violence in this country alone, political rallies are not the place for guns. Only fools, or disingenuous trolls, claim otherwise.

    “The tactics used by the Tea Party, to gather, protest and demonstrate, taking into account their non violence approach and the scope of their accomplishment, do you feel this was a historic and most impressive movement, and do you feel this is how protest should be conducted? (Note we are taking out any consideration of agenda, or any other touchy-feely stuff)”

    It is surprising the lengths to which you will go to have someone agree with you. I agree that the Tea Party was “historic”; I never said it was not. I agree it accomplished some of its goals, I never said it did not. I don’t agree with many of its goals. Some, when they are sincere, I do agree with.

    Where I disagree with you is with your implied contention that OWS existed to foment violence (trying to save time here, so that I don’t need to come back and clarify something yet again; in your exaltation of Tea Party “non violence” you are implying that is not a characteristic of OWS). There may have been peripheral criminal activity (as previously noted ad nauseum, not surprising given the numbers of people, many thousands, duration of events, many weeks, and locations, large cities), but OWS was a non-violent protest. At least until the cops showed up in full body armor and those cans of “food product” designed to burn a recipient’s eyes, more effectively when said recipient is seated on the ground. The two groups have some of the same grievances. Your obsession with the crimes reported, when violent crime was not the intent of the movement, suggests a desperation to discredit a movement with which you should, unless you are a corporatist who believes the US should be the corporatocracy many seem to be determined to make it, find considerable simpatico.

    “Just a bunch of bitches on the rag, I could give a dam anymore. At one point I was foolish enough to think there was an even chance for civilized discourse. Tex had it right. They are here to circle jerk and tell each other how right they are, the truth has no place here or in their lives. As I said I gave up. Just going to do my do and let em cry about it.”

    My god, what a whiner (and a sexist one, as well). Anon, wherever you go, to whomever you speak, there are always going to be those who evaluate your declarations and find them wanting. Some, as in this case, may try to discuss the matters with you and offer some alternative to your version of “truth”. One wonders why you would waste all of your obviously valuable time (your workers may wonder why the boss is spending so much time on a blog comments page while they have to carry his load, perhaps that is why they do other things at work; the standard is being set by the leader) in a debate if you only want your views and the fallacies of your talking points echoed back to you. Right Wing blogs may suit you better.

  402. PRESIDENT OBAMA GETS ASSAULTED

    http://theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/2011/12/president-obama-assaultedby-8-month-old.html

    by an 8 month old!

  403. Merry Christmas to everyone. May the new year pass as one of your happiest and most prosperous.

  404. Merry Christmas, Helen & Margaret and friends. May your day be filled with joy!

  405. Merry Christmas everyone, especially Margaret and Helen!!!

  406. Helen and Margaret, Matthew, poolman, PFesser, James, Craig, alaskapi, delurkergurl, Cynthia, uawtradesman, No One’s Puppet, JuneauJoe, Honolulu Sally, and others I have missed. I wish you all a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. May all your differences be small ones.

  407. Good to “hear” from you Craig!

    Hang in there!

    Secular celebrations and atheist observances, or whatever other observances or not, please enjoy peace and work on those relationships.

    It is a time for giving, and our time is our most valuable gift. No matter what your belief, you should have the capacity to love others.

    It IS more blessed to give than to receive. I see Jesus as the ultimate representation of that in action and deed.
    :mrgreen: Merry Christmas to all!!

  408. Thanks for the check-in, Craig. We all wish the best for you and yours for the holidays and the coming year.

  409. PFesser,James,Donna..Alaskipi Delurker,Annon,Poolman,UAW,NOP..and all..Its been a while ….
    and I see things have not changed too much.
    But I wanted to wish all A Merry Christmas..a Happy Holidays or whatever your Political correct day you consider this.
    It’s been less than a perfect year for us..but I wanted to wish the best to all.
    Feliz Navidad…

  410. I agree.

    One reason loss of temporary construction jobs with the pipe line is our economy. Nebraska’s unemployment rate is about 4.5% and Iowa’s fallen to under 6%. The last I heard, North Dakota’s unemployment rate was about 3.5.% Iowa and Nebraska have both gained population since the census.

    You might be interested in MARI BOINE about the ban of joik. The Sami finally got mad enough to fight against what had been done to them.

    We agree on what needs to be done, but until we rise up as the Sami did, nothing will change. Even the Tea Party and OWS movement couldn’t permamently change much.

    We are almost packed and heading out the door.

  411. re: open carry of firearms. I have been a gun owner my whole life and have concealed-carry permits in several states, but you can’t be carrying guns out in the open. You just can’t do that shit. It makes people nervous and is just for the most part an intimidation tactic by bullies with some kind of mental screw-up, precisely the people you don’t want carrying in the first place. Yeah, you have the right, but so what? Show some common sense for God’s sake.

    re: motorcycle helmets, etc. I have never been without a motorcycle since I was sixteen and that was a long time ago. I lived in a state without helmet laws and I can tell you it is a lot more fun riding without them, but if you do so you are paying your money and taking your chance. Just not smart. I still ride a dirt bike on weekends without a helmet but my friends and I just putt along woodland trails. I’ll take my chance there, but not on pavement. Like the gun argument, you have to show a little common sense. Every doctor I know calls them “donor-cycles,” and that’s a good name for them.

  412. James-
    I think we have to try to demand these things rise or fall in seperate bills, whether something we personally agree with gets axed or not.
    We also need to call BS! on other devices both sides of the aisle use to effect legislation which isn’t necessarily good law.
    The introduction of appropriations language which would not allow the FDA to spend any money on finishing certification review of transgenic fish by my Rep was tooted up as a run at banning transgenic fish, something I would heartily like to see happen.
    However, playing starve-the-beast- is not an effective, open, true way to deal with the issues there.
    It’s scary to think about losing that battle but I would rather see it all dealt with openly, seperately, and decisively. If we have to re-visit things then, it’s a clearer road to resolution and not mussed up with a whole lot of horsepunky unrelated to the questions.
    For ourselves, we have to demand Congress get off it’s game playing routine. Tactics of compromise are one thing, playing games are another.

  413. We are about to leave. If you get too tense arguing, calm down with Sofia Krlsson’s Morka vatten.

  414. You make some good points, but the political battle over Obama’s bind is driving this now. The logic of another bill for Keystone doesn’t matter because Republicans know Obama is delaying a decision to avoid alienating voters he needs. The merits of the bill mean less than the political gamesmen ship both sides are playing.

    Our part of the country is doing fairly well, in part because of energy extraction and the farm economy. Our booms and busts have largely been associated with farm cycles and bad weather. The Heartland tends not to reach the extreme peaks and valleys felt elsewhere.This pipeline will create many jobs. Though a large percentage will be temporary, the economy is diverse enough, that we will not feel a crash when the pipe line is finished. Local economists say the pipe line will be a net long-term gain for us.

    The extra oil will also help the economy through more stable oil prices. The US is becoming a net exporter of energy as Mageen, I think mentioned. One reason is our buying and processing oil for resale and our exploiting new energy sources. This is all good and reduces our dependence on enemy producers.

    Canadian companies will sell their oil to someone. If we don’t buy it or block the pipe line, the Chinese are waiting to fill the void. Their developing country needs all of the oil it can get. They have invested in Africa, our Gulf, and in South East Asia to insure filling their future needs. Canada is another opportunity for them.

    The pipe line here has been reviewed for years. Were it not for the political battle, it would be approved soon, even with the new route. It is safer for the ground water and the main obstruction is land owners, and establishing titles and compensation. An oil pipe line and a fiber optics line are buried under our farm.

    Alaska is more dependent on energy extraction than our area is. It reminds me of Montana and other mountain states. Ghost towns remain as monuments to lost dreams after mines gave out.

    If I was in charge, I would let the Keystone Pipe line rise and fall in a separate bill, and I think it would pass, because it wouldl benefit our country. You know how the system works. Politicians worry most about keeping their jobs. They sneak things into bills which should be in smaller, separate legislation.

    This is playing out because both sides are holding the pipe line hostage for political gain. Their jobs are more important than ours.

    Boehnor and Obama are both “harming us all.” So what are we going to do about it? Protest as they are in Russia? Or nothing? I’ll bet on nothing because most people care more about American Idol than Congressional games of chicken.

  415. anon- yes, ANY. i don’t have any problem with saying ANY.
    Some of those you are pointing to were casting about for any tactic to delay or derail a vote though- which is another game Congress folk of all stripes engage in. We should pay attention no matter who is shooting their mouth off.
    I’m still stunned at Dems who think Weiner’s loss is sad and reaction to his stupidity is overblown. We don’t need ANY who act that stupid in Congress.

    Pfft ! on the oneliner Muslim-loving throwawy line there.
    Water assets in this country are a rightful and increasingly important measure of whether projects make sense .
    You can yammer on forever about us being broke and all and short term relief being a-ok but whether we want to face it yet or not, it’s horsepunky. the boom/bust thing hurts us more than most things -including providing support to families caught in the lurch by boom fallout.
    The refusal to come up with an energy policy which eventually gets us off oil because big business doesn’t want to adjust to it is at the core of all that fear-spreading, threaten the folks with security from Muslims crap you are spouting.
    For a country which prides itself on innovation and risk taking we sure suck right along when big business wants security to invest which is denied to us in our communities and personal lives.
    unbelievable.

  416. For any member of Congress to tie the “creation” of thousands of short term jobs before full review of the proposed route change is completed to settling the problems faced by millions of Americans is problematic at least and unacceptable .

    you mean like they did with a certain piece of health legislation?I seem to remember some Republicans getting hammered on because they wanted more time to read thousands and thousands of pages of a certain bill.

    I cannot believe there is any debate about the pipe line. I guess someone up high in our government is looking out for their Muslim brothers. This one just hurts my head. You think people who have been out of work for 2 years care if it is a short term job? They have short term hungry kids. They have short term house payments. Unbelievable.

  417. The battles here over

    Whoops!

    getting Alaska natural gas to market have drug on since the 70s.
    Palin’s Alaska Gasline Inducement Act brought TransCanada into view here. So far, not much of anyone is impressed .
    This wiki article is behind times and a fairly surface look but does point to some of the questions a large trans boundary pipeline proposal has to answer.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_gas_pipeline

  418. James-
    Senator Leahy called into question here the logic of strapping Keystone to the larger bill

    http://leahy.senate.gov/press/press_releases/release/?id=fdc47ebf-ff53-4702-9d5f-d52165fc6c29

    on pretty solid grounds.
    One of the things about the whole jobs creation thing which bothers me is the boom and bust deal. I don’t know about your state, but we in the far west, much of whose fortunes and futures are tied to resource extraction , are regularly in conflict with ourselves and corporate interests over the short term booms construction projects provide and the long term dearth of decent jobs after a big project is completed ( as well as lack of access to the products we sell- but that’s another story)
    Corporations of the oil and gas and mineral extraction variety are endlessly turning on the spin machine about how they will take their cookies and share em with someone else if we don’t buckle down and give em ours first.
    We have a huge battle brewing, a leftover from last year, in the State Legislature and with the Governor over oil royalties . The sane voice out of the State Senate is demanding that full accounting and study be done before any tax structure is changed in favor of oil companies. The Gov and the skeerdy-cats/corporate shills in the House just want to accept the oil companies’ public assertion that they need more incentives to continue here- which does NOT hold up under even the most cursory review. There was a lot of holding-hostage crap from our State house last session over this and in the end seems to be backfiring as folks look at more long term goals here.
    For any member of Congress to tie the “creation” of thousands of short term jobs before full review of the proposed route change is completed to settling the problems faced by millions of Americans is problematic at least and unacceptable .
    This device of tying wierd “amendments ” onto /into larger necessary legislation causes way too much harm in this country.
    Senator Ted Stevens here was a master of this and got a whole lot of stealth like legislation on the books this way. Our reprehensible Rep Young has done his fair share as well.
    This crap has harmed us here and likely most of America. Issues which deserve full attention and for their own merits and demerits should be seperated and dealt with seperately.
    The dishonesty of any, here Boehner, who tie this crap together on shaky threads harms us all.

    The battles here over

  419. Cynthia, I agree. I’d even add psychological tests, but they would probably infringe on rights of privacy. I’d also test doctors and nurses.

  420. Like our flood, few people cared about the Keystone Pipeline until it became politicized. The plan takes it from the Canadian oil sands to the oil refineries of Texas. The EPA ruled on it, and Hillary spoke favorably of the pipe line. The logic behind it is we would be buying oil from a friendly neighbor and reducing our dependence on hostile nations like those in the Middle East. Iran’s threatening to close the Straits of Hermuse and their planned war games concerning that made supporters campaign more actively. If the oil flow from that region is interrupted, or people fear it might be, the price of energy will surge. Even a better economy will take the price of oil up.

    However, landowners and environmentalists worried about the potential danger to the Ogallala Aquifer under the Nebraska part of the pipe line. The ice age lake is under the Nebraska Sand Hills ranch country and is an important source of water. Oil would quickly sink through the sand to the water. Environmentalists began to lobby against the location of the pipe line, Nebraska’s Republican governor Johanns found his voice and spoke up against the Nebraska location. He then wrote to Obama and asked him to rule against the pipe line in its current location.

    The fact that our flood broke two pipelines, one a few miles from our house, added substance to his argument. Environmentalists protested in front of the White House and at public meetings concerning the pipe line in Nebraska. The Canadians were angry and threatened to end the project. They finally found a new Nebraska route slightly west of our house. That wasn’t good enough for the enviornmentalists.

    They changed their tune and argued what they had intended all along–to kill the pipe line and to stop Canadians from exploiting the Alberta tar sands. The Canadian company said “so much for you. Maybe we should sell the oil to CHINA!”

    Though environmentalists opposed the pipe line, labor unions favored it, because estimates created 20,000 new jobs. They argued that the pipe line has been discussed and studied for over three years. It is time to build it. Meanwhile, Obama who polls show he needs every vote he can get was in a bind. No matter what he decided, one important group would be angry and might not vote for him.

    The best option for him was to delay a decision until after the election. It was an obvious political decision and belied Obama’s stated concern and determinition to encourage job creation. The Republicans noticed and decided to force a decision . Many also believe we need the pipe line for economic and national security reasons. The Democrats and Republicans are standing fast because they all know that Obama will lose votes if he makes a decision now.

    The majority of people here want the pipe line, but the Democrats probably guess most here won’t vote for the president anyway.

  421. “delurker……then why the f6ck didn’t the senate pass a 1 year extension……is Harry that f6cking stupid…….”

    No, he’s not. Perhaps you weren’t paying attention. Boehner was holding the American people hostage with a ransom the size of a pipeline. Boehner wasn’t going to pass anything at all unless the pipeline was strapped to it. You may have noticed there’s a pattern here with the wildly unpopular Mr. Speaker. Without the pipeline, Senate Republicans would have filibustered a year long extension. They filibuster everything.

    They were not going to work that out by the end of the year. Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of the senate chose not to put millions of families and medicare providers at risk, and they compromised with a short term extension. Unfortunately, they probably still won’t work it out in the next two months. It’s critical to damage the economy as much as possible so Obama doesn’t get a second term.

  422. On a lighter note, I thought I would give everyone a good chuckle.

  423. UAW – Add ham, onions and carrots and whatever spices you like. Once it is cooked remove the solid pieces and puree(sp?) them in a food processor. I don’t like my pea soup soupy with pieces but rather thick that sticks to your ribs.

    I didn’t realize drugs were such a problem in what I would consider better paying skilled worker jobs. I didn’t realize there were that many problems/accidents that could actually be attributed to drug use. I wondered if it was just another “hoop to jump through” that employers came up with to “control” their workers. Of course you would expect your fellow workers to be clear headed especially in working with machinery. I didn’t mean for you to LYAO, do you think you can put it back on before Christmas?

    I do think they should drug test the Wall Street people. The son of an old friend was a stock broker on WS and had a big “coke” problem. He got caught doing insider trading and had to find other employment. Perhaps drugs are the reason behind the mess on Wall Street.

    Merry Christmas.

    Peace.

  424. catching up since I last posted…..LMFAO right now……..drug testing while working????????they didn’t want us f6cked up and killing each other…..then again I’ve seen(and worked with) guys that have had 30 tons hanging from a hook and couldn’t operate the crane unless they were f6cked up…… I’ve also seen guys that have been on the wrong end of a chain and had a piece of steel(10ft by 20ft by2.5inthk) land on them….yeah….I lost my lunch……I’ve personally been under 140 tons because someone had to wipe something off…….theirs a lot of people that want to make gun accidents a crime but accidents do happen but they are not crimes , they are tragedy s…..making split pea soup for my mother -in-law right now…..any suggestions…..
    believe it or not I’m starting to agree with Pollman……GO Ron…..Oh wait….I’ve been drinking…..
    delurker……then why the f6ck didn’t the senate pass a 1 year extension……is Harry that f6cking stupid…….did harry listen to “We need to vote on this to find out what is in it”……do you really think that the PEOPLE are that stupid…….then again……

  425. From my understanding the Republicans wanted a year because it is almost impossible to implement a policy for 2 months. By the time this policy gets through all the red tape it takes to get it put into action it will be over. The people who have to actually manage it said it is impractical and near impossible to get done on that kind of time frame.

  426. Liberal media IS a lie. But it is one often repeated even here on the porch. As for the mainstream media, we have propaganda and marketing outlets primarily. Often it is difficult to gain any real nutrition from within all it’s packaging .

    But to each his/her/its own. We are free to make those selections – still.

    I’m getting tired of this political football event. Both parties are taking us down a dark alley and only drastic measures are going to keep us from being mugged.

  427. Today the media reports that the Republicans caved and signed a two-month extension when they wanted a full year.

    Did anyone hear that the Democrats also wanted a full year? Or that the Republicans would only agree to a full year if it included fast-tracking a porkulous pipeline project? Didn’t think so.

    Liberal media, my a$$.

  428. alaskapi, our long nights don’t compare to yours, but I enjoy them. The gun discussion was appropos. Some one a few miles north of us shot a mountain lion two hours ago.

    This is one of our warmest winters in years, and I am putting my skis away after my last skiing this morning. It will be in the forties, so we will have a barbeque at our family gathering. Some people in Omaha plan to golf if they find open golf courses.

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

  429. That’s the best you have? It seems you know you have lost, then.

  430. We have 11 sec more light today, will have 21 sec more tomorrow. Small spuds in the state of the universe but enough to cheer me here in the long dark.
    Happy, Merry whatever to all.
    Helen and Margaret- thank you for having us all in.

  431. Children have died from electric shocks from electricity in the household. Are you for banning electricity? By the way Jo-Jo, nice to see you can comment, even if it is only as anon

  432. I’m confused about why you would attack my parenting. Perhapsp you are not arguing from a position of strength. My son is a surgeon. He harvests organs from people who ride motorcycles without helmets, as well as peole who have been injured in gun accidents. The people who are organ donors as a result of riding without a helmet are people who have exercised their rights and paid the price of their own decisions. People who became organ donors as a result of someone else’s decision deserve to have someone stand up for them.

  433. You’re right, NOP. I should have qualified that. Anyone with a right to carry a concealed weapon needs extensive training first. People arguing with street signs certainly don’t need to carry guns.

  434. Logic fail. I did not say getting rid of guns will reduce crime. I said gun accidents don’t happen in homes that don’t have guns.

    Now you’re on record for believing that children who were accidentally killed or injured as a result of access to a gun deserved it. I’m standing up for those kids. You’re standing up for you.

    I can hear you singing, Bud Light in hand, pistol on hip, “Deck the halls with boughs of holly. Me me me me me, me me me me.”

  435. and 2:45, guns didn’t kill anyone, unless you have a police report or some video that shows otherwise. FYI, we have places in the world that have outlawed guns, and crimes still occur.

  436. you are correct anon, I do not care about those deaths, not even a little. I govern my house hold, and i do not have the arrogance to try and govern yours. Either learn to take care of your kids or don’t have them and don’t expect me to legislate your morality. If you want to be a lemming, then by all means jump off the cliff..just give me enough time to make some popcorn.

  437. I wonder how many crimes are committed each year by people who stole guns from responsible gun owners? I wonder how many people were killed in the commission of those crimes?

  438. Anonymous is on the record that he doesn’t care about preventable deaths of children, and as such is as guilty as if he’d pulled the trigger himself.

  439. Whoa there James, “If it is legal, I think anyone who wants to should be able to carry a gun,” I’ve seen plenty of street people here in Vegas talking to street signs, I don’t think you or I think they should be allowed to own or carry guns.

  440. UAW- Don’t feel bad, it was a long time ago and it turned out ok.
    The point was , probably too obscure, that some rebuttals to “guns don’t kill, people do” should be talked about. People who want gun control, many rightfully, many overboard, are not really talking about guns, they are talking about people.
    They are talking about what we know about ourselves and our behaviors and what might or might not be sensible, manageable ways to limit the damage we do to ourselves.
    We can’t make the world totally safe but neither should we just shrug , like the NRA does, and say well, those parents, drunks, robbers, whatever, were irresponsible and should suffer the consequences.

  441. I say we require all guns to have a safety installed that will only allow people with an IQ over 2 digits to fire these killing weapons. That ought to limit the “accidents” and unnecessary deaths.

    Oh, the irony…

  442. keeping children ignorant of a thing**

  443. Responsible management would have prevented those deaths in most cases. Keeping children of a thing does not protect them from a thing. Ignorance causes curiosity. You and those like you who shield your children rather than educate them and teach them responsibility quite frankly deserve what you get. That lesson I has to teach my son only has to be learned once. He never again defied that.

    And by the way, my sons all call me sir, and their mother mam. They have done chores since the age of 6, and are all A and B students. The wife continues to do math education during summer break for an hour, 3 days a week. It is called personal responsibility. My kids are not dumb because we didn’t teach them to be ignorant. Our kids are not dishonest because we taught them accountability and the value of one’s word. So you will have to excuse me if I pass the blame on to you and yours for your fear bread out of laziness and ignorance and for leaving the education of your kids to the state. If the public school is teaching your kids more than you are then that is on you. Don’t restrict my freedoms because you cannot be bothered to have a hand in raising your own.

  444. If it is legal, I think anyone who wants to should be able to carry a gun. However, I agree with Cynthia about my personal behavior. I want to rely on less lethal forms of protection first.

    Another reason to have a weapon ready is predatory and rabid animals.

    I also think drug testing is another way of controlling us. On the other hand we don’t want people high on drugs operating heavy machinery or working on our roofs. A construction company uses “they are all local and drug tested as a selling point in their commercials.

    UAW, you know more about the subject than we do.

  445. Anonymous, please explain how your responsible management of a weapon makes all those other children less crippled or dead when they could not be if there wasn’t an available weapon. This isn’t about you.

  446. UAW – forgive me for my lack of knowledge here. Why did you or others have to be drug tested? Personally I am not in favor of drug testing without some valid reason. I do know someone years ago who made a load of money selling drug testing kits. But he also admitted it was just a way to make money. The/his company presented an argument to employers it was in the employers best interest to drug test their employees. but they squed (?) (rigged) the research to appear the American work force were all drug addicts. I am not babbling I just can’t get my thoughts to come out right at the moment. I just think drug testing is another way of controlling the American people and making money for some corporation.

  447. anon 12:14….
    ever hear of Eddie Eagle GunSafe program….

    http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/

    how about the Civilian Marksmanship Program ….a U.S. government-chartered program that promotes firearms safety training and rifle practice for all qualified U.S. citizens with special emphasis on youth.

    http://www.odcmp.com/

    what are the number of studies….tried googling the phrase and only got gun bashing websites…. no studies……send links…..I would like to know who sponsored the studies…..

  448. That kind of ignorance isn’t taught in our household Anon. As a Liberal I understand why you have a hard time getting your kids to respect you. In our household I assure you that isn’t the issue, nor is that the lesson our son took. He understands that there are no short cuts in life. He understands personal responsibility. Again all alien concepts you and yours cannot comprehend so I do not expect this post to mean much to you.

    The only way your argument can be valid is if guns kill people or influence them to doing things they would not otherwise do. Where children die is from people like you who do not take adequate precautions to protect their children. Sadly your ignorance is probably genetic and little can be done. But you are right, your children deserve better.

  449. THANK YOU, Anonmous, for proving my point. Poeple just like you have loaded weapons accessible to children. What your son learned was not to get caught next time.

    I never said guns kill people. That’s your right wing talking point. I cited statistics that show that where guns are more accessible, more children die. Those children matter more to me than your opinion.

  450. Alaskapi…
    I hadn’t read your post yet when I was typing mine…….
    I’m sorry thing like that are happening to you personally and I’m also sorry thing like that happen to anybody……
    the thing with your ex wasn’t a gun law problem it was a medical-court problem(HIPPA rules)………apparently removing the guns didn’t help…….as I said before I’m sorry…..
    using the word execute(pun) was because at the time I could think of a better word…….
    I do feel that if someone is sentenced to death(w/DNA evidence) then it should not be delayed……..10 days max……the next question is what crimes should deserve the death penalty……
    As an example(IMO) a man puts a gun to a 9 years old head and then sodomizes them or a man put an apple to a 9 years old head and sodomizes them…..both deserve the death penalty……
    I don’t believe that all the people with drug crimes belong in prison but that doesn’t mean that it’s alright for them to use tax money(welfare ADC) to buy drugs……before I retired I was required to take drug tests for the luxury of paying taxes and would loose my job if caught, but its unconstitutional to test food stamp recipients…..Horseshit…..since when is a little smoke considered food……I don’t care if you smoke but I’ll be damned if I want to pay for it…..

  451. Not a valid argument 12:18.

    If you can show me how guns kill people I will entertain your arguments.

    What some people are, and others are not is not a valid argument. To use that analogy, some people are criminals, others are not, but since some are we should treat everyone like a criminal.

    Our guns are in the open where our kids can see them and they are always loaded. The kids get to shoot them so they are not curious about them. They also know the serious consequences for touching a gun without permission. Ask my son who lost 1 month of his summer vacation for taking the 12 gauge off the wall. Gun locks were in place so there was no danger but it drove the point home.

    Again you can operate under the Liberal premise all people are stupid and need to be protected from themselves. I cannot imagine the place we would live in if we legislated from a place of taking the worst of us and making laws that effected us all.

  452. The thing about guns they are fast and deadly there is no turning back once you pull the trigger. Fists, bats, knives, etc. can also be deadly but usually it gives one time to reconsider their actions before they become deadly.

    Peace.

  453. The people who owned the guns that were involved in the injuries or deaths of all of those children thought they and the people around them were safer because they had them. They may think differently now.

    Apparently those children don’t matter to you. Perhaps that’s because they have already been born.

  454. back to Mageen….
    In 2008 and 2010, the Supreme Court issued two Second Amendment decisions. In District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia[1][2] and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home…….
    and I believe that the only countries with a standing militia are Israel and Switzerland……
    and its to bad but the closest we are to a militia is the Civilian Marksmanship Program (look it up)……

    donate to USA SHOOTING a 501c3 non-profit corporation, was chartered by the United States Olympic Committee as the National Governing Body for the sport of shooting …

  455. “…but not as terrible as the person I hit in the head…” What is the story behind that one uaw tradesman. Wouldn’t it be classed as a clubbing injury?

  456. “What if I’ve taught my kids not to touch a gun if they find one?
    A number of studies [9], [10], [11], [12], suggest that even kids who are trained not to touch guns can’t resist, and that parents have unrealistic expectations about their kids’ behavior around guns. That’s why parents are encouraged to keep guns unloaded and locked separately from ammunition , and to ask about guns at the houses where their children play. ”

    If your gun is locked up separately from the ammunition, how much good will it do you in a crisis?

  457. “More than a third (35%) of homes with children—that’s 22 million children ages 18 and under in more than 11 million homes—had at least one firearm, found researchers in a RAND-UCLA study [6]. But only 39% of these families keep their firearms locked, unloaded, and separate from ammunition as recommended by the American Academy of Pediatrics. FORTY THREE PERCENT % of these U.S. homes with children and guns reported keeping one or more firearms in an unlocked place and without a trigger lock. NINE PERCENT keep their guns loaded as well as unlocked. This analysis is based on data from 1994 interviews conducted in tens of thousands of households by the National Center for Health Statistics.”

  458. Gun availability tremendously increases the chances of these incidents happening.

    “When researchers studied the 30,000 accidental gun deaths of Americans of all ages that occurred between 1979-1997, they found that preschoolers aged 0-4 were 17 times more likely to die from a gun accident in the 4 states with the most guns versus the 4 states with the least guns. Likewise, school kids aged 5-14 were over 13 times more at risk of accidental firearm death in the states with high gun ownership rates. The findings indicate that gun availability is associated with accidental death by shooting.”

  459. “In addition to firearm deaths, we need to look at how many children and young people are hurt by guns. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reports that in 1997, 2,514 children aged 0-14 were non-fatally injured by guns. In the same year, 30,225 young people aged 15-24 sustained nonfatal firearm injuries. These statistics include suicide attempts and both intentional and accidental shootings”

    Those parents may also not share your views.

  460. anon@11:43- you can see it as a cheap shot (pun intended or not) if you like but I see it is a probably-not-explicit-enough question.
    How in the world do you make an argument for concealed carry for your safety and then, seriously or jokingly, say that without expecting some blowback?
    A real cheap shot would have been to snark about whether the foil in your cap is concealed too.
    Were you making a joke which didn’t amuse or were you being serious?
    UAW- Stop it!
    The people here today recognize some notion of gun ownership being ok. No one sees you as a bad guy on this… yet anyway:-)

  461. Unfortunately, people who don’t have your superior intellect have as much right to own guns as you do and in fact are more likely to feel they need them.

    http://med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/guns.htm

    “The 2002 edition of Injury Facts from the National Safety Council reports the following statistics:

    In 1999, 3,385 children and youth ages 0-19 years were killed with a gun. This includes homicides, suicides, and unintentional injuries.
    This is equivalent to about 9 deaths per day, a figure commonly used by journalists.
    The 3,385 firearms-related deaths for age group 0-19 years breaks down to:
    214 unintentional
    1,078 suicides
    1,990 homicides
    83 for which the intent could not be determined
    20 due to legal intervention
    Of the total firearms-related deaths:
    73 were of children under five years old
    416 were children 5-14 years old
    2,896 were 15-19 years old”

    Those parents may not share your views.

  462. anon 10:19

    There were zero people shot by people who didn’t have guns in their hands. …..the next question is “How many wished they’d had a gun?”
    but then I agree with….”Time to stop doing nothing! If you don’t do something about this, every person killed by a gun from now on is your responsibility!”…..I’m glad you’re for capital punishment(death Penalty) and it should be executed (pun) in days not years…….

    Poolman….brandish….to shake or wave, as a weapon; flourish: Brandishing his sword, he rode into battle. …Nice to know that it’s OK to brandish knives,bats,batons,wooden handles that protest signs are attached to,shoes,metal peace signs,padlock hooked to belt,etc….
    tool….handheld devices that aid in accomplishing tasks….gun,knife,brass knuckles,roll of quarters,Louisville Slugger,3 ft length of wood,etc

    anon can’t be from MI….it’s against the law to hunt from a motorized vehicle (cab of tractor or combine) but I have run back to the house for a gun to kill a cat the went through a piece of machinery and was still alive(usually all 4 legs missing)….the more I think of it it is legal in MI.to have a gun in a vehicle but it must be unloaded and cased……

    I have a pistol for target shooting that I haven’t shot in 3 years (and clean it once a year)5 22s that I hardly shoot anymore(1st one was a Christmas gift when I was 10)(some are antiques-hex barrels-inherited) 2 deer rifles(I hunt in a shotgun only area) 2 muzzle loaders(legal in shotgun area) 1 shotgun(3 different barrels-one rifled and scoped)….
    if someone broke into my house I’d probably pick up my old truck axle(what I call my first muzzle loader)and hit them with it…….I feel terrible that I’m considered by most of the people here as a menace to society……but not as terrible as the person I hit in the head…..?????would that be classed as a gun injury or death……

  463. Accidental deaths are just that..accidents. It is also negligence on the part of the gun owner. I defy anyone to shoot my gun while the gun lock is in place.

  464. Concealed carry because you perceive a lot of people don’t like you ?

    Bit of an unfair statement, rather surprised you made it. I never mentioned anything of the kind. Cheap shot I am not accustom to hearing from you.

    All fine argument about scenarios that can happen. I hear military people kill themselves sometimes as well, and accidental deaths occur all the time, friendly fire as well. Do we advocate disarming our military? I don’t think so.

    End of the day you have to prove guns kill people to have a valid argument. A gun is an inanimate object incapable of the crimes you put upon it. People throughout history taking something positive and used it for all kinds of terrible things. This does not mean we automatically get rid of anything that can be used for bad.

  465. I agree with Cynthia. We own six rifles, shot guns and a pistol I inherited from my father. ACT vs REACT is a big problem. In addition, you must be able to kill or not with only seconds to asses the situation. Hesitation could give your attacker the upper hand and that person might be able to disarm you.

    However, some of us still need weapons for protection. When a neighbor witnessed a drug deal, a man shot near his knees and warned him the next time a bullet would kill him. The sherrif told our friend to carry a weapon because his home was so isolated the law would not be able to help in time.

    A student vandalized our property and left a couple of skinned dogs on our cars. He and his friends made a half-hearted attempt to burn us out. My wife took classes and told everyone she would soon be able to carry a concealed weapon. She also let everyone at school know who the vandals were. I didn’t need the classes because I am a veteran. Everything stopped. The news that my wife could carry frightened the kids. Neither of us actually had to carry a weapon.

    In my opinion, the founding fathers would have included the right to carry guns.

    Another overlooked weapon is a fire extinguisher. It can do a lot of damage.

  466. anon @11:07-
    We’ve had 2 of those “accidents” , though both victims look like they will make it, in my community in the last few weeks.
    Both will have serious disabilities for the rest of their lives.
    We , for sure, need to be able to have broader and better conversations about guns than what passes for talking about it most of the time in this country.

  467. When you have a loved one die by accidental gunshot when it could have stopped if there had not been a gun in the house, come talk to me and tell me only your belief is the truth.

  468. Anon- Actually, 20 below or not, the gangs in the ANC area blaze away pretty regularly, at themselves and anyone nearby. We’re not that isolated here. We have our own piles of dead bodies as monuments to human stupidity just as everyone else does.
    If my beloved nephew who was murdered just over 2 years ago had had a gun, it wouldn’t have saved his life. The shooter came out of nowhere and it was a random killing.
    Also, too, I am here today partly because I took action when the now-ex drinking-more-and-more started having “conversations” about cleaning up his life with his guns when he was in his cups.
    I called his brother who came and took the guns out of the house, which the police would not have done.
    I took myself out of the house when he decided fists would suffice if he couldn’t find his guns. End of that crap.
    He was raised just as I was that guns are tools- losing a job and feeling overwhelmed by life pretty much threw all kinds of sensible training right out the window there.
    Concealed carry because you perceive a lot of people don’t like you ?
    hmmmm…

  469. Would you believe I was moderator on the Janeane site? I was even an adminstrater, mostly by title only for a while.

    Thank you NOP. I like what I know of Poolman and you too. I may enjoy attempting to crush either of you in an argument as you do the same, but we are just people.

    Here is a present: Julia Savicheva- esli v serdce

    “Days go by
    Years fly by
    Oceans dry up
    And you are alone,
    your soul and your eyes
    are these tears and these
    wounds
    Just don’t look
    Don’t look at other sides
    Stay in the way you are
    Stay yourself.
    The whole world lights
    up your eyes,
    If in your heart lives
    love.”
    She is a Russian singer with a good voice. Anyway, no one will bother to check youtube, but if you did you might like the song.

  470. I think it is easy to say one could protect ones self if you had a gun but would you ACT rather than REACT in a situation. In the Gabby Gifford situation the man with the gun almost shot the wrong person. IMO all women would be better off taking a course in martial arts to protect themselves along with being aware of their surroundings and their behavior/actions.

    I believe in the right to own guns although I would not have one in the house myself and I have never been in position where I wished I had one. How many children have been killed or injuried by a gun their parents kept for protection? How many guns have been used in a moment of anger, drunkness or stupidity?

    When the founders wrote the right to bear arms we were a young country. I believe there was concern that another country might invade and a need to protect ourselves. Also the country was still “wild” and the “need” for a gun was there. But would the founders write it today?

    Peace.

  471. Anon 10:42. When you have a loved one die when it could have stopped if she had been armed, come talk to me and tell me you believe the same.

  472. “No way does a concealed gun on your person qualify as a “tool”.

    Again sorry what I thought was obvious needed to be explained. We did not conceal guns on the farm, why would we. Common sense should have prevailed here. We were on our own property. The gun was in the cab of the truck or tractor, wall of the barn, in the house, and depending on what we were doing worn as a side arm.

    “Wearing Superman underpants might do just as much for your self-confidence and feelings of being in control of your life as carting around a concealed gun and create less problems if you feel threatened… by whatever.”

    As you have said before you live in your own little world up there in Alaska. I’m sure the street gangs find the -20 below weather not so much to their liking. For the rest of us, the threats are real, and crime is committed everyday. No one is forcing you or anyone else to carry. You weigh that choice with your belief system and judge accordingly. Currently the laws of the land permit me to carry, so I shall carry, and I shall do so guilt free.

  473. Of course it is fallacy. It is EXACTLY how you think, but only when it suits you. It is utter nonsense, like most of what you say.

    However it is true that a person who does not have a gun can’t accidentally shoot someone. The statistics aren’t fallacy, just the inferences that are identical to yours.

  474. I have also stopped driving my family in my car because the potential to be killed in a car is so high. Much higher than the potential of an armed intruder coming into my locked home while we are there.

  475. Anonymous 10:19, that was so fallacy ridden I’m not going to bother commenting.

  476. Alaskapi, I have shared some of my past here. You know it was unusual and at times, violent. Some grad students tried to get rid of me because I was a veteran. They tried and failed. In the end, I hurt a few of their grades.We also faced each other in classes which put a premium on class discussion. They ganged up on me but I was usually faster than they were. Some people tried to get rid of me here also. As I told delurkergurl words on my computer screen wear the faces of people from my past, and I re -attack them with relish.

    Besides, someone had to do it. Condescending frauds like Stephen and the others deserve a reaction. So do intolerant people. Sometimes, I may go too far. The first message board I wrote on was Jeanane Garafalo’s when her anti -war statements made her notorious.

    Men claiming to be Bill O’Rielly and Sean Hannity posted from time to time. I thought they were fake and called Bill False Bill or Faux Bill. I believe Ann Coulter and I exchanged a few words. I instigated a joke campaign to get Ann and Jeanane into a mud wrestling match. Since then, I have had the disquieting feeling that those people might have been who they said they were.

    “…Dueling links.” I like that.

  477. You do realize some 30,000 people on average die from guns in our country every year, right? If everyone carried, there would be more of these casualties. Common sense.

    This is common nonsense. Accidents aside, guns don’t kill people, people kill people. Having a gun does not cause someone to going on a shooting spree. It is their tool of choice to commit their crime. Do you really believe that someone intent on murder would not murder if they didn’t have a gun?

    “You people that say brandishing a gun in public deters crime are full of shit.”

    How little you understand human psychology. Criminals, like any predator go after the easiest prey possible, prey that offers them the lowest possibility of risk to themselves. If a rapist saw a lone woman walking but saw her carrying a handgun, do you think he is more or less likely to attack her?

    Human life is more important than stuff, I don’t care what the stuff is or who it belongs to.

    Wrong. Someone comes onto my property, enters my home, they have forfeited their right to live. I cannot ascertain if they are coming for my DVD player or if they intend to kill my family, and I am not about to question them to find out. Could you stand by and take the chance with the lives of your loved ones to find out?

    Thanks for the personal insult, proves my point Liberals are the party of hate and cannot comment on topics without going after the person. Don’t ever anyone tell me it isn’t so.

  478. Chill out, Poolman. If you had as many people dislike you as I do, you’d carry, too.

  479. James, I seldom agree with you, so I thought I’d let you know for once, I do agree with something you said, “had we not invaded Iraq, Bush, not Obama would have been taking the bows for killing Bin Ladin. Of course, Obama made the right call when our agents found Osama.” Quite frankly, I like poolman a lot, but I resent it when he implies that either President Bush or President Obama are liars or disloyal to this country. These two men have more in common than any of us can possibly understand. They have both held the most difficult job in the world.
    About this Stephen business, what prevented him and his group from doing on the sly, what he proposed to Helen? Sounds to me like someone set up a controversy just to see how it would get batted around here.
    Merry Christmas All!

  480. If a rape by one crazy person is “one too many” and condemns and entire OWS movement, what does 100,000 people per year shot or killed by people who possess guns mean? 592 people in one year killed accidentally by people who posessed guns. Some were children who were killed, and some were people killed by children. 592 deaths is 592 too many.

    There were zero people shot by people who didn’t have guns in their hands.

    Time to stop doing nothing! If you don’t do something about this, every person killed by a gun from now on is your responsibility!

  481. You do realize some 30,000 people on average die from guns in our country every year, right? If everyone carried, there would be more of these casualties. Common sense.

    You people that say brandishing a gun in public deters crime are full of shit. I’m sure it will in some circumstances, but it elevates the risk of injury or death in many cases. The criminals then bring bigger better guns to commit their crimes. It forces an unfair situation on those who prefer not to openly carry weapons.

    Flying bullets have a tendency to create a hazardous atmosphere where humans are present. Human life is more important than stuff, I don’t care what the stuff is or who it belongs to. We somehow lost that key knowledge somewhere along the way in our enlightened and civilized society.

    Just the knowledge that anonymous carries is scary since he/she/it has gone off the farm several times in this forum alone. I’m just glad the farm is in Michigan, from my perspective.

    I am not against gun ownership. But there is a time and place for them. Public protests and voting places are NOT appropriate places for personal weapons to be carried, IMO. Think about what message it conveys. Think. Use common sense.

  482. P.S. Were I to have my way it would be open carry of firearms rather than conceal. Robbers hide their guns until needed. I would rather have the guns serve their intended purpose of defense by deterring people through being able to see them.

    I am also for carry on college campus. To many women fall prey to violent crimes and they should be able to defend themselves. Maybe the shooter at Virgina Tech would have been less successful had students the means to stop him.

  483. oh crap, Anon.
    No way does a concealed gun on your person qualify as a “tool”.
    Whether you are right or wrong about the govt ( I think you are mostly wrong) the tools you would need are more in the damn-fine-lawyer category should you actually have to deal with the govt.
    Wearing Superman underpants might do just as much for your self-confidence and feelings of being in control of your life as carting around a concealed gun and create less problems if you feel threatened… by whatever.

  484. I carry concealed everywhere I go, with a few exceptions requires by law(bar, large events, church..ect) I would no sooner leave home without my underwear than I would my gun. I agree with alaskapi there is a fundamental difference between urban and rural folks. I live in the city but grew up on a farm. All my youth growing up a gun was a tool. Not a toy, not an instrument to use on another human being, a tool. I shot my first gut at the age of 8. My nephew shot his first gun at 6. We teach the same things my father and grand father taught me. It is a tool, never used otherwise unless someone is threatening what you have.

    With the kind of laws passing in our government today, take our land, our freedom, our liberty, once piece at a time, there is no way I would allow myself to be disarmed. Understanding with the technology at their disposal my small collection of rifles and handguns wouldn’t make a bit of difference.

  485. UAW-
    I grew up around guns, am surrounded by them still. The stalled conversations about the-right-to-bear-arms are in large part due to the NRA’s refusal to engage , citing slippery slope fears, and certain anti-gun groups who take similar refuge in the opposite direction.
    Sometimes I wonder how much all of it has to do with rural v metropolitan.
    However, I don’t want the fruitcake
    “I don’t ever want to be in a small room unprotected,” he explains, “when I know there are people in this country that have proven time and time again that they want to cause damage and hurt people.”

    Read more here: http://www.adn.com/2009/04/23/770932/uaa-students-rally-for-right-to.html#storylink=cpy

    to openly carry, let alone concealed carry. Do you?

  486. Mageen……..
    go to Colonial Williamsburg and make that statement…..and they’ll tell you that a standing militia is every male over 16 and under 60 and is not a felon or disabled…..required by law to have at minimun a gun,1lb of powder, and 4 lbs of shot…..and to show up for 2 weeks every year for training….got that….Every….&..Required be Law……if you think that’s sexist then we can change it to Every Person…..

  487. James- why did you even respond to the “Stephan”-anony?
    Or the ‘Eric”, “Isaac”, or “Marjorie”?

    Why respond to anyone announcing themselves with the rather provocative remark
    “Since you post rather infrequently, we note that some of your fans have staked out claims and established their own little fiefdoms with their comments.”
    except perhaps to ask if that is the rather untidy beginnings of a hypothesis to test?

    Along with
    “Thanks for stopping by. Even idiots are welcome to leave a comment. I mean it. Really.”

    http://margaretandhelen.wordpress.com/2008/11/07/idiots-are-so-easy-to-spot/

    and her remarks

    “NEW, New Rules:

    If you are not for me, you are against me. I’ll get over it. Now kindly return the favor.” from the What was I thinking when I called Sarah Palin a bitch post

    Helen pretty much set the “rules” here and allowed for the broad non-post specific back and forth which goes on here ( Thank you Helen and Margaret), pie-throwing and all.
    Folks are free to make of that what they will, throw up their hands and not participate, engage at whatever level they want to, etc.

    It’s rather silly to worry about
    “With your permission, we would like to divide up the comments between ourselves, going back quite some time, collect data and do some statistical analysis. Of course, the information would be held in the strictest confidence much as political polls are.” on any level.

    If there is a group who wishes to do so, they can do it without permission anyway. The sticker would be if they wanted to use content here publically in any large amount or without attribution to Helen and Margaret’s blog. It amuses me to think what some kind of statistical -analysis “report” might be called.
    “Distribution of Slings and Shots via Dueling Links”?

  488. For the right to carry arms crowd . . . yes its in the Constitution and the way it is written would require the bearer to be a member of a standing militia. During the 90’s I was at my polling place (a little schoolhouse) on election day when some guy in a uniform wearing a gun showed up and just wandered around the line of voters. A volunteer member of a candidate’s team (also a relative of the candidate) gave him bloody hell; to wit: this was something done only in undemocratic countries, etc. (the tactful version). The gunbearer, who turned out to be a security guard for some organization and not there to cast his own vote, took off with the volunteer at his heels. This was reported up and down the chain of command of every law enforcement organization. Point: a tad of common sense about those guns, guys! They are like love of which one must be much more careful.

  489. More good news for retirees

    http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/12/22/u-s-retirement-assets-declined-by-1-4-trillion/?ncid=webmail11

  490. Happy holidays Margaret and Helen! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours!

  491. Don’t let them know you know. Now that you do, you can watch them more carefully.

  492. Its Christmas week and so today I brought in Subway party subs for the team and gave them 15 extra minutes for lunch.While they where gorging themselves on the food I generously provided, I overheard some of the stuff they’ve been getting away with while I’ve been hanging out here on this blog. Ungrateful bums.Nobody wants to work these days.

  493. Thanks anon. Its not hard facing words on a screen. I learned long ago when I was in danger that the wrong emotionality can lesson your survival chances. I do try to see both sides. Sometimes, the other side is right.

    You are accomplishing something by forcing people to look at things in a different way and to defend their views.Unknown lurkers read these posts. You might make one or two think differently.

    Just don’t harbor any illusions.

  494. Sorry about misspelling your name.

  495. Its the party of double standards. Bush was responsible for everything, Obama is accountable for nothing, as it is still all Bush’s fault.

    I got the impression James that our man up there thought he would bully is with his legaleze. Another glaring double standard is they piss and moan about us being unkind, yet post after post hammering us is ok. Just a bunch of bitches on the rag, I could give a dam anymore. At one point I was foolish enough to think there was an even chance for civilized discourse. Tex had it right. They are here to circle jerk and tell each other how right they are, the truth has no place here or in their lives. As I said I gave up. Just going to do my do and let em cry about it. Your a better man that I sticking it out this long playing nice.

  496. That was funny Poolman. I believe the same company which made a kill Tea Party members plans a kill OWS game.

    I almost believed Osama had died of kidney failure.

  497. Marjory, we only know who Stephen says he is. If they study us, we have the right to read their conclusions. Therefore, it concerns us too. I did not direct their attention to myself. Isaac and Eric lobbed verbal shells at anon and me. If f that is the attitude of the group, they are biased before they begin. So far, they don’t impress me with their stories of educated professionals at the round table.

    Speaking only for myself, I decided to stake out some territory when I was outnumbered and most people tried to get rid of me. I succeeded and then others like anon came along and made it happen.

    I was ready to quit a long time ago, but two people told me this site needed an alternative voice. So here I am, and this forum is more balanced than it was. Mission Accomplished. That is no secret. We forced no one out. The others left the playing field and we replaced them.

    Your being a woman has nothing to do with anything. If you insult me, and I am in the right mood, I will scorn you, even if we are face to face.

    I have earned my ego and I am self-directed. I am also relentless, and I also know how to conduct research. The secret is to be unobtrusive Stephen’s two minions were anything but unobtrusive.

  498. Cynthia, I wish the same for you next year.

  499. Bush did not give up looking for Bin Ladin. Its more complicated than a simple statement that he did. We don’t even know if Bush had more than a perfonctory voice in the decision.

    The New York Times discussed the CIA’s closing the unit on July 4, 2006. Robert Grenier who was in charge of the Counter Terrorist Center decided the agency needed to reorganize to cope with changes in terrorist organizations.

    MIcheal Scheurer, a former senior CIA official said the change reflected a view that bin Laden was no longer the threat he had been. His power was becoming less strategic and more symbolic. He disagreed with that opinion and said making bin Laden the first among equals would dilute the search.

    Other officials countered that Al Qaeda was no longer as heirarchical as it once was and Al Qaeda-inspired groups were becoming more dangerous than the original organization.

    After Osama went stagnant, intelligence organizations continued to look for Osama. They focused more on the # 2’s and #3’s to weaken the organization. There was never just one team searching for him. We have over a dozen specialized intelligence agencies with several fronts of electronic surveillance tracking of al Qiaida movements. This is why Osama had no electronic devices and communicated via curriers because he didn’t want to be tracked.

    You can argue that whoever made the decision to end the task force made a bad decision and hurt the search. You can also argue that our invasion of Iraq took too many resources from hunting Bin Ladin. If you say Bush gave up the search and nothing was done until Obama, you are wrong.

    I believe Osama was less important in day to day operations than he had been and the CIA, etc focused more on his lieutenants and other organizations which posed a more immediate threat. I also believe had we not invaded Iraq, Bush, not Obama would have been taking the bows for killing Bin Ladin. Of course, Obama made the right call when our agents found Osama.

  500. Feels good to vent doesn’t it Marjorie

  501. I hope Helen approves of Stephen’s proposal yesterday to do a research study on this blog. I see what is meant about the two self-styled “lords” setting up their own little fiefdoms here. Stephen’s comment was addressed to Helen only. But of course Anonymous had to jump right in and denounce it as the “gated community” group. He has no way of knowing where or how the team lives and works. But that is his usual knee-jerk reaction to everything he knows nothing about. And as usual, James hopped right in to try to take charge and direct the attention of the research onto him self. What colossal egos. Do I detect a twinge or two of jealousy there?

    Since I am a woman, now I’ll just sit back and expect a barrage of put downs from those two. That’s what they like to do best since it is the only talent they have ever exhibited.

    I only wish I had the knowledge and experience to be part of the startup of such a research study. As Stephen stated it is to be a long range project. I am assuming the results will not be forthcoming for quite some time, even years. Still I would like to participate in any way I can.

    In the meantime I want to wish everyone here on the porch a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy New Year, Winter Solstice today and all other celebrations between now and Groundhog Day.

  502. Peace Noah!

    I am turning my “stalker” membership; there is nothing to be accomplished here.

    Hopefully 2012 will be a year we can all live with without regret.

    Peace.

  503. yes ….Why did they cave??????Maybe they compromised…….ever hear that word before……just wondering if the next Republican elected in that district will be a Tea Party member…..

  504. Unless he really died of kidney disease in December 2001 like the majority of the rest of the world believes and his obituary claimed. But that would mean Bush and Obama were both lying. Imagine that?

  505. “Bush dismantled the Bin Laden task force within 2 years after the 9/11 attacks. BUSH GAVE UP LOOKING FOR BIN LADEN. It took a new President Obama that made hunting Bin Laden and his pals a priority.” JuneauJoe’s facts are absolutely correct on this matter.

  506. Jo-Jo..your slipping old man..you already posted that propaganda.

  507. House Republicans CAVE on the Payroll Tax Cut. Why did they cave? THE REPUBLICANS WERE GETTING CRAP FROM THOSE THEY SAY THEY REPRESENT!!! The Republicans had no choice because they were acting stupidly and not representing the middle class wishes.

    http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/house-republicans-cave-payroll-tax-cut-ext

  508. Bush dismantled the Bin Laden task force within 2 years after the 9/11 attacks. BUSH GAVE UP LOOKING FOR BIN LADEN. It took a new President Obama that made hunting Bin Laden and his pals a priority.

    Quit remaking history into a Bush lie fest. President Obama did well with taking out Bin Laden and his buddies. Quit the lies and rewriting history. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld were incompetent fools. Face facts folks.
    Had that mission lost our men – it would have been seen as a disaster. President Obama risked his Presidency on that mission.

  509. Hey jo-jo. That script read like something off the afternoon soaps. What was courageous about taking out Osama. The President before him tasked the intelligence agencies to find this guy. Bush had nothing to do with finding him. Obama had nothing to do with finding them. Neither person was out in the bush looking for this guy. To say the phrase, get em, took no courage. It was a common sense call. It was a political win to take him out. And hell since we have been looking for him all these years..why not go ahead and kill him anyway while we are there. I laughed my ASS off watching this video. Pure comedy watching these guys act like they were right there, it was their finger that pulled the trigger, it was their heads bullets were wizzing past. Get over yourselves gentlemen. The brave seals on duty that day, and the intelligence operatives that found him deserve all the credit. You just gave the nod.

  510. Wrong, Juneau Joe.

    Legal Turkey,

    if this was a moderated forum with someone attacking me, my recourse would be to notify the moderators. If I retaliated, I could be suspended also. Moderators would likely tell us to refrain from any interaction including not posting on the same thread if multiple threads existed.

    If attacks persisted or if the initial attack was really nasty, my complaint to the moderators would result in the wrong- doer’s being suspended or even banned.

    You may already know this, but just in case I over estimated you, I thought you should know.

  511. Let the record show Cynthia took no issue with the Tea Party doctrine and she is hereby inducted as an honorary Tea Party member. Welcome to the club of common sense Cynthia.

  512. The Legal Eagle. yes, why do you ask?

  513. Only President Obama was brave enough to take out Bin Laden! Bush tried and failed!

  514. I agree with you, Cynthia.

  515. Legal Eagle, I could say under oath that I know within a reasonable doubt that what I wrote about Tea Parties and OWS is the truth, the whole truth and noting but the truth. I never wrote that not one single incident of Tea Party wrong doing occurred somewhere, so that is irrelevant. There were none that I saw or read about.

    I have been libeled here on a regular basis. I have been defamed with malicious intent. Occasionally, I retaliate by speaking the truth. On other times, I exaggerate. So what? We are all big people here. If this went to court, I’d have a stronger case than my detracters. A long time ago the man who operates this site wrote that under the rules of moderated forums, the people calling me troll and other names were in fact the trolls.

    “Partisan demagoguery does not apply to me, though I witness it frequently.

    I’ve never directly accused someone here of lying though I have said someone what quoting lies and that was the truth.

    “If someone is nice to me…” is mine. It is related to the Golden Rule, and the right of self defense. Insults and retorts would never make it to juvenile or any other court. Carry it to its logical extension which is physical violence, and it would go to court. I would win because some else would have initiated the attack.

    Thanks to your silly attempt to transfer events on a forum to real life legal issues, I dub you.

    The Legal Turkey.

    James

  516. While there are those who believe NDAA 2012 will continue an attempt to murder democracy, Obama feels adjustments made by a House-Senate conference committee has sufficiently addressed those concerns and will sign the bill.

    (However, I am not sure I agree with this.)

    http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/conlaw/2011/12/national-defense-authorization-act.html

    http://www.thestatecolumn.com/alaska/rep-don-young-votes-in-favor-of-national-defense-authorization-act/

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/us/politics/obama-wont-veto-military-authorization-bill.html

    UAW – Merry Christmas and a Peaceful New Year!

    Peace.

  517. Just to refresh your memories, we are a nation governed by the rule of law. In a society always in a state of flux, some laws need to be amended and others need to be annulled. That is why our system is comprised of three branches: Executive, Legislative and Judicial.

    Some hypothetical questions. After subpoena and under oath in a court of law, would you, Anonymous, swear that your frequent statements on this blog to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God from your eyewitness accounts as to allegations of murder, rape and child abuse of which you have accused the OWS participants in this the country. If so, cite names, dates and places. Incidentally, the word is “heinous”.

    James, under the same conditions of subpoena and affirmed under oath in a court of law, could you swear without equivocation that your frequent statements on this blog to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth from your personal experience as an eyewitness to Tea Party activities throughout the country; that there have been absolutely no incidents of felonious crimes or misdemeanors attributable to any such participants, directly or indirectly.

    Both the OWS and the Tea Partiers are exercising their Right of Assembly under the Constitution.

    It might be wise for both of you to apprise yourselves of the legal definitions of “libel”, “slander” and “hearsay evidence” as well as the penalties for perjury. I recommend the 9th edition of Black’s Law Dictionary over Wikipedia.

    While you are at it, you could also consider the use of the terms “partisan demagoguery”, which in some cases is akin to “crying fire in a crowded theatre” if the intent is to incite. Such practices are not covered under the First Amendment of the Constitutional provisions of Free Speech.

    The postures of “He/she started it”, “I am nice to him/her if he/she is nice to me” and the use of the word “Liar” without substantive proof are not admissible even in Juvenile Court.

    The Legal Eagle

  518. Because of my abusive childhood, I think everyone should have a gun. Even children. The baby has one but won’t lay hands on it until at least 3.

  519. Obviously the guns were not for hunting deer, Simon. Don’t be a fool. The point was to send a clear message. Did you get the message?

  520. Merry Christmas Simon…..

  521. Simon, lets just cut through the rhetoric and semantics and go with a bottom line approach.

    The tactics used by the Tea Party, to gather, protest and demonstrate, taking into account their non violence approach and the scope of their accomplishment, do you feel this was a historic and most impressive movement, and do you feel this is how protest should be conducted? (Note we are taking out any consideration of agenda, or any other touchy-feely stuff)

  522. Simon. I don’t need to know all of them. Maybe Japan would be more suited to your belief system. It is a flawed argument to promote disarming the public because we have “some” who would misuse it.

  523. Now, I am gone for a bit, whether I return to this blog remains to be seen. It is an entertaining one and its comments section is certainly lively.
    I indeed to spend the rest of the week celebrating this holiday season and I hope all of you do the same. I suggest quality time with whatever family and friends you have, cherish them and that time and don’t let the toxic nature of partisan politics consume you.
    Happy holidays to all and best wishes for the coming year.

  524. I saw another question about Gingrich and his ethics issues, from UAW, I believe, but I can’t find it again. It involved Gingrich being cleared of the violations.

    Here is what I have found on that:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/govt/leadership/stories/gingrich020499.htm

    Gingrich denied violating tax laws and described his college course as nonpartisan. But he agreed to pay a $300,000 penalty for his misleading statements to the ethics committee as it investigated the financing of the college course and other issues.

    His foundation was cleared of charges it improperly funded a course taught by Gingrich, but Gingrich continued to lie. Lying, of course, at least according to Anonymous (one of them anyway), an impeachable offense, and should disqualify Gingrich for presidential candidacy. I hope he is the nominee, however.

  525. “While the number of people involved in the protest is hard to determine, statisticians have successfully concluded that this movement has definitely set a record for the largest number of people masturbating on public property.”

    Now that is a violent act.

  526. “come on Simon…..smaller groups?????

    According to the UK’s Daily Mail — complete with eye-opening photos — the crowd numbered “as many as one million people.”

    How long were they there?

  527. “I don’t know why you want to vilify the gun…..It is just a visible object much like a peace symbol hanging around a neck…If someone were to get a grip of the chain peace symbols hang from and hit another in the head with it that person could die…..someone also could have been killed in Philadelphia when the Black Panthers were “protecting” voting sites with billy-clubs…….I can’t understand why you associate guns and criminals when most guns are for defense(OK…protecting against criminals)…. do you have screens on your windows to keep bugs out…..do you use spray when outside to keep mosquitoes away….”

    The history of political violence in this country is depressingly extensive. Guns have their place, but not at political rallies.
    Billy clubs and guns? Really? Come on.

  528. “We have the right to carry arms. IT is lawful to do so. Period. I have a serious problem with anyone, you or our government wanting to disarm the public. I would not feel threatened, because I know the kind of people that goes to these events. You on the other hand, going to one of your OWS events, I can understand your fear of having any of them armed. That I get.”

    You know the kind of people that goes to these events? All of them? Every one of them? Look, I have actually been extremely considerate of you throughout these discussions, lightly teasing you only once. But this absurd comment is almost too much. I have no wish to insult anyone here, but what an idiotic statement this is.

  529. Simon….
    I don’t know why you want to vilify the gun…..It is just a visible object much like a peace symbol hanging around a neck…If someone were to get a grip of the chain peace symbols hang from and hit another in the head with it that person could die…..someone also could have been killed in Philadelphia when the Black Panthers were “protecting” voting sites with billy-clubs…….I can’t understand why you associate guns and criminals when most guns are for defense(OK…protecting against criminals)…. do you have screens on your windows to keep bugs out…..do you use spray when outside to keep mosquitoes away….

    try to use Tea Party ,Eric Holder, and Fast and Furious in the same sentence…..
    Cynthia….Use attempted murder of democracy, NDAA 2012, and Obama in a sentence….

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/20/1047142/-Updated:-The-day-President-Obama-signs-the-NDAA,-I-will-remember-this

  530. “Simon common dude you are smarter than this. I never made a claim historic was good. I said they were historic. Find your integrity man.”

    Everything you have said about the Tea Party has been in the context of it being “good”. It was historic, it accomplished so much, it was made up of good, god fearing peaceful Americans who only care about how much they love this country and the founding fathers and apple pie.
    Please, lose your disingenuousness, man.

  531. We have the right to carry arms. IT is lawful to do so. Period. I have a serious problem with anyone, you or our government wanting to disarm the public. I would not feel threatened, because I know the kind of people that goes to these events. You on the other hand, going to one of your OWS events, I can understand your fear of having any of them armed. That I get.

  532. “the most ignorant thing you have ever said. I know you are not an idiot, so I have to believe you are just deceptive to say this. Self defense comes to mind. And we know hunters don’t exist. You do know far more deer alone are killed than humans?”

    As I pointed out, a political rally is not a hunting ground or a sport shooting range. I will say it again, and perhaps it will sink in. The guns were paraded around at a political rally. Reports don’t include the number of deer at the rally.

    “Look, whine and cry all you like about my handle. It is what it is and it is not changing. The fact you are so hyped up about it tells me you have a nefarious purpose and I am just not interested into playing with it. If you are so perplexed and bothered by it, just skip past my responses as Cynthia does. Though her reason is ignorance and embarrassment of being shown up.”

    I explained the confusion problem, that’s all. I’m not nearly as “hyped up about it” as you are about Cynthia, but that is between the two of you, and has nothing to do with me.

  533. “I wonder Simon if the women that were gang raped, and the people that were murdered, and their families would agree that they were acceptable statistical casualties. You are quite a piece of work.”

    I doubt if anyone would want to be considered a “statistic”, any more than innocent people in the way of bombs care to be considered “collateral damage”.

  534. Curses, I missed these comments from a previous “Anonymous” post.

    “To each their own. Integrity is not for everyone.”

    Neither is teasing. Get a sense of humor, it will do wonders for you outlook.

    “The Tea Party is indeed historical. So was Nazism.”

    “This probably tells me all I need to know about you. To compare one to the other is outrageous. I misjudged you. You are not at all what I thought you were, but that is on me.”

    It is also “on you” that you, conveniently, as I suspected you would, ignored the next sentence:
    The only connection being that a contribution to history is not necessarily worthy of admiration.
    I have addressed your reaction to this already, it was very predictable.

    “I also find it telling that the Tea Party were able to accomplish so much with no violence in your opinion is not enough to warrant respect for this accomplishment. I am of the mindset that the world would be a far better place if people could organize and enact change in a non violent manor.”

    This too has been addressed, but taking a serious look at the logic and merits of the argument requires more energy than just dismissing everything as “excuses”.

  535. Look, whine and cry all you like about my handle. It is what it is and it is not changing. The fact you are so hyped up about it tells me you have a nefarious purpose and I am just not interested into playing with it. If you are so perplexed and bothered by it, just skip past my responses as Cynthia does. Though her reason is ignorance and embarrassment of being shown up.

  536. The purpose of a firearm is to kill or injure something, usually human beings

    the most ignorant thing you have ever said. I know you are not an idiot, so I have to believe you are just deceptive to say this. Self defense comes to mind. And we know hunters don’t exist. You do know far more deer alone are killed than humans?

  537. To the question of using “Anonymous” as an identifier, I meant to add this point: Anyone can use “Anonymous” and more do so than just the person to whom I am addressing this comment. It can be confusing as to who is posting what. A “name”, even a fake one, identifies the person posting as a specific individual whose observations won’t be mistaken for a completely different person using the same generic “Anonymous” appellation.

  538. I wonder Simon if the women that were gang raped, and the people that were murdered, and their families would agree that they were acceptable statistical casualties. You are quite a piece of work.

  539. Simon common dude you are smarter than this. I never made a claim historic was good. I said they were historic. Find your integrity man.

  540. UAW – I ‘m sorry, I realize it would be so much easier for you if life were a picture book, yeah?

    Peace.

  541. “Placing Nazi and Tea Party in the same sentence under any context brings up a negative connotation. They do not belong together for any reason other than a deceptive one.”

    They are both negative, in my opinion, for reasons previously outlined (including the possible destruction of the only viable second political party) which was the point. Being “historic” does not mean good. There is no deception. One can compare arsenic to wasp venom, one is more deadly than the other, neither are desirable to ingest.

    “As for hurting my feelings, your not capable. I made a values judgement, and I was in error, nothing more.”

    Again, your value judgements, and/or perceived errors about them, are irrelevant.

    “As far as being Anonymous, how is that anymore more or less telling than Simon?”

    “Simon” is a name, “Anonymous” is a hiding place. Still, the blog comments give you that option, so no one can stop you from using it. My point was that I am even less inclined to have interest in an “Anonymous” evaluation than I am one associated with a name. But it really doesn’t matter, since I have no interest in either. These issues aren’t relevant.

    “As for making excuses, and they are excuses for the crimes, I guess I reject out of hand the notion that if you put together a group of period for a long period of time, gang rapes and murders are to be expected.”

    There are no “excuses” for crimes any more than acknowledging clouds and thunder in a small area means it is more likely rain in that area is an excuse for something getting wet. They are statistical probabilities. Violent crime is more likely in a large city than in the countryside. These are facts. Reject them all you like, (and since you are persistently gasconading about your understanding of the “liberal mind”) it is the nature of conservative thinking to reject that which doesn’t fit preferred opinions.

    “If it was irresponsible for the man to have a fire arm in plain sight, then why wasn’t he arrested? That would be because he was breaking no laws.”

    It is amazing, I must admit, that this question is even being asked. These were public political rallies, not private gun ranges or hunting grounds. The weapons were out in the open. The purpose of a firearm is to kill or injure something, usually human beings. It has no other raison d’être.
    The things that can go wrong in such a situation are too obvious to list. The law, for better or worse, doesn’t always regulate responsibility. There is no law against blowing your house payment on several cases of fine whiskey, for example. But it is irresponsible to do so.

  542. Santorum rocks. Talk about a guy with a record of getting things done. At the moment my dream ticket would be.
    President Santorum,
    VP Perry
    Secretary of Treasury: Ron Paul.

  543. Cynthia
    I find it frightening you could say some of these things. Me thinks communism would be more suited to your belief system.

    Attempted murder of democracy
    How so? In the reality I live in, everyone gets a voice in Democracy. I want Liberals to voice their opinion. I want Independents and Conservatives telling us what they believe. No one philosophy has exclusivity to good ideas. I would be interested in hearing how you feel the Tea Party takes away from that?

    Attempted murder of common sense, logic, reason and reality.
    Desecrating the Constitution of the United States.

    I look at the Tea Party’s principles and I have to wonder what you consider to be lacking in common sense. To make this more organized and easier to respond to, to be accountable for your own words, let me list those beliefs.
    1. Eliminate Excessive Taxes
    2. Eliminate the National Debt
    3. Eliminate Deficit Spending
    4. Protect Free Markets
    5. Abide by the Constitution of the United States
    6. Promote Civic Responsibility
    7. Reduce the Overall Size of Government
    8. Believe in the People
    9. Avoid the Pitfalls of Politics
    10. Maintain Local Independence

    I see a lot of good things here, things I believe our founding fathers would support. I know you will have a desire to take the easy way out and cherry pick one or two of these that your rhetoric has prepared you for, but if you really believe what you say, then take them all on. I have a hard time imagining that you would disagree with all 10 of these, so by all means tell us which ones you like and don’t like and why.

    As for your belief that unborn children have no rights, we will just have to agree to disagree and say that both parties deserve consideration and protection. I have a hard time accepting that a woman gets 100% consideration and a child 0%. I find few things in life are this absolute.

    Of course you can be too good to answer and let your rhetoric be your answer. I just thought I would give you an opportunity to show your common sense since you seem to have such a steep appreciation for it.

  544. Looks like Santorum will be the Republican Presidential Nominee!!

    http://the-reaction.blogspot.com/2011/12/i-think-its-fairly-safe-to-say-that.html

    what about Santorum? He’s picking up big-time endorsements, by Iowa standards, left and right — or rather, far right (Schultz) and even more far right (Vander Plaats). The Christianists love him, because he’s one of them. He’s crazy, but keeps his craziness in check (unlike Bachmann). He’s polished from his years in the Senate (unlike Perry). He’s a social but also economic conservative (unlike Romney and Paul). He doesn’t have a history of personal misdeeds (Gingrich).

    And, well, it’s his turn… isn’t it? Makes sense, no? He’s the one!

  545. Cynthia is babbling again….

    PEACE

  546. I just came in from skiing, so I haven’t checked much. For every Tea Party member, three or four sympathizers voted. That is what gave them their influence.

    Meanwhile the LA Times says the Mayor says the city must find ways to cut expenditures because OWS cost the city so much money. Posters are angry because they think the city administration which pandered to the demonstrators should pay the bill, or ask the demonstrators to pay.

    Someone wrote the OWS protests have cost cities over $23 million. Another posted that the OWS street group demonstrated against the 1% and stuck the 99% with their bill. Both stories support my point. This horse is dead.

  547. To say the Tea Party committed no crimes is not exactly true…. IMO.

    I believe the Tea Party is responsible for the following crimes and misdemeanors:

    Attempted murder of democracy.
    The victim is in critical condition and may not live. If he does survive he may be permanently unable to function as before.

    Attempted murder of common sense, logic, reason and reality.
    Victims are struggling to survive at this time. Charge may change to murder in the future.

    Desecrating the Constitution of the United States.

    Rape of Woman’s reproductive rights.

    Aiding and abetting insanity.

    This is just a partial listing of charges; please feel free to add any crimes you feel were not reported.

    Peace.

  548. maybe every state needs an Office of the Repealer…..

    http://www.lawguru.com/weird/part01.html

  549. Yes….how did this small group of older people that just gets together for a few hours take over a whole state………not saying I agree with everything but the voters are getting what they wanted……

  550. Did Kansas secede from the Union? I had no idea the Tea Party took over and gained the ability to passed legislation.

  551. Yes…… that damn Office of the Repealer…….

    http://www.kansascity.com/2011/11/27/3289890/group-calls-for-repeal-of-sex.html

  552. Mageen, yes, our becoming an oil exporting nation is good news isn’t it. It is not entirely as it seems. We bought some of what we export elsewhere, and some is refined and then sold.Still, it is good news.

    The proposed pipeline track is the cheapest and most efficient available. I believe the refinery capacity is larger in Texas than in some other areas. It is also near the coast. Sending the pipeline to Toledo would be a headache, in my opinion. It would cross through a heavily populated area which would mean more landowners to satisfy, and it would create a greater hazard if the pipe ruptured in or near a big city.

    Our area is relatively thinly settled. NOP’s hangnail of a flood broke two pipelines, one in Montana, and one a few miles north of our home. I’ll bet you hardly heard of it. The land was too thinly settled to create a widespread economic or public relations cost.

    All I know about the Kansas Tea Party problem is what you wrote. I will take your word for it, because it snowed, and I plan to cross country ski in a few minutes. With the current weather pattern, this will likely be our last snow for two weeks at least, and it will be gone by Christmas.

    My argument focused only on the Tea Party’s effectiveness V OWS as of today. That’s all I proved. Like most such groups, the Tea Party does have a massive tin ear.

  553. Omigosh! So much going on here. Oil: we have lately become an oil exporting nation. So much for the Middle East and Venezuela! As for the pipeline from Canada, could not figure out why there is such a staunch insistence on running that thing all the way to the Texas coastline. There are refineries much closer such as Toledo. Tea Party: somebody check out the huge story in the Washington Post as to what is happening under Tea Party policies in Kansas. Even they can function in ignorance, especially when it comes to taking $$ away from Head Start to create a program for fathers when Head Start already does that and quite well. After discontinuing a number of departments, agencies, programs etc. Kansas created the official Office of the Repealer. How much does anyone think that is going to cost? And it looks as if The Repealer will be around for a long, long time or at least until the Tea Party and its governor, Sam Brownback, are voted out of office. The TP sounds like it has the same kind of political tin ear it charges its opponents as having.

  554. I’ve read every post Helen has ever blogged, and this one just doesn’t ring true to me — the small nuances of the writing style just are not in sync with all other posts.

    For the first time ever, I believe someone else posted under Helen’s name and tried to mimic her biting wit. It’s a good attempt, but it’s just not entirely in sync with everything else Helen has written.

    Will the real Helen Philpot please return?!?

  555. Bravo and mahalo for your latest post Helen! Ron Paul is probably the smartest “dog” in the pack, and lol about his genealogy! It was a bit cruel, but it brought to mind Molly Ivins and her take on Ross Perot sounding like a chihuahua.

    Thanks for the laugh!

  556. HHHHmh is good enough there UAW.
    The question as viewed in the article is about why black people are scarce in OWS. It really should be why are there so few people of color in general who identify with OWS. The article touches on a couple reasons, there are many more.
    One of the failures of the article is that part of it focuses on groups like the NAACP in any way, a major fail on the part of the article to understand OWS or issues of PoC.
    It’s one of those articles with a good question attached to a half-assed go at answers.

  557. Thanks Simon. It does mean something to me. As I wrote before, I hope you stay.

  558. HHHHmh(or however you spell it)

    http://theweek.com/article/index/221869/why-is-occupy-wall-street-overwhelmingly-white

  559. now I’m really LMFAO

    While the number of people involved in the protest is hard to determine, statisticians have successfully concluded that this movement has definitely set a record for the largest number of people masturbating on public property.

    http://globalnewsnetwork.us/2011/11/02/occupy-wall-street-sets-record-for-number-of-people-masturbating-in-public/

  560. come on Simon…..smaller groups?????

    According to the UK’s Daily Mail — complete with eye-opening photos — the crowd numbered “as many as one million people.”

    http://www.ihatethemedia.com/how-many-were-really-at-the-dc-protest-rally

    and at OWS….
    21,123

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111202095102AAvX1jZ

  561. any more*

  562. you’re not capable*

  563. If you put together a group of people for a period of time*

  564. Placing Nazi and Tea Party in the same sentence under any context brings up a negative connotation. They do not belong together for any reason other than a deceptive one.

    As for hurting my feelings, your not capable. I made a values judgement, and I was in error, nothing more.

    As far as being Anonymous, how is that anymore more or less telling than Simon?

    As for making excuses, and they are excuses for the crimes, I guess I reject out of hand the notion that if you put together a group of period for a long period of time, gang rapes and murders are to be expected.

    If it was irresponsible for the man to have a fire arm in plain sight, then why wasn’t he arrested? That would be because he was breaking no laws.

  565. “I’ve been down this same path before and it brings to mind a song from my past that seems apropos in the moment. Enjoy.”

    Indeed.

  566. “Yes, the Tea Party elected some metaphorical bomb throwers. I warned people they could do harm to both parties when the concesus here was that they were an ignorant group of yahoos would soon fade away. However, they saved us from Obama’s agenda. His successes have been limited since that election.”

    The first part of this statement is easy to agree with. The disagreement on the second part is to be expected, since I consider Obama’s “agenda” to move the country forward on a progressive path, one that I enthusiastically support.

    Permit me to say, although there is no reason to think it matters to you, I find you a fair and reasonable person with whom I have disagreements, but one who does not attempt to constantly move goal posts and whine about mistreatment in the course of a discussion. Thank you.

  567. “This is what we call an admission of defeat and a discussion closer. A comment born out of frustration. I will accept it for what it is.”

    No, a statement of fact. I am not “frustrated” with you. You have nothing to criticize OWS for than a small percentage of crimes committed in large groups over many weeks. That is what you have been obsessing over for two days now.

    “There were thousands upon thousands of protestors with the TP as well, yet no criminal activity except for people attacking them. compared to the Tea Party, OWS had an enormous amount of crime. The fact you keep downplaying it just proves the point I have been making all along.”

    If you actually read the arguments you might be able to refute them…but then again that would require facts and logic, so probably not.
    One more time: OWS = thousands of people all over the world in circumstances lasting several weeks. Tea Party = mostly, with a few exceptions, smaller groups of older people, gathered for a few hours at most. The percentages favor incidents in OWS.
    Also, I do not “downplay” them, I point out statistical facts. Make the Tea Party a world wide phenomenon, place thousands of them in limited quarters for several weeks and let’s see what happens.

    “What about the man who condoned 9/11 and asked for it to happen 911 more times. Guess I found 1.”

    Umm, possibly. To be fair I guess I should permit raving lunatics to count, since your gun slinger was one of those for your side. Well done.

    “Subjective terms to prove a point. Irresponsible action in your book is speaking ones mind. Irresponsible in my mind is spending money like a drunken sailor and passing our debt burden onto our kids. It is also not lost on me you compare and contrast gang rapes and murder to verbal altercations.”

    No, irresponsible action is carrying guns to public political rallies.
    Spending so that our children don’t inherit a depression should be considered considerate, at least, and in the long run, responsible. The deficit, as I have noted many times, can be dealt with when times are flush; see: 1990s.
    Once again, I made no such comparison. I stated no OWS supporters who are not certifiably insane support gang rape and murder. On the other hand, your gun slinger speaks for himself.

    “Now we are heading down the old Liberal path of person issues. Having read the Nazi statement and have been forced to reevaluate certain assumptions I made about you, so I will bite to see where this leads. I am 51 years old.”

    Reevaluate what? Oh, I see, you are now the hurt party, how dare I compare the Tea Party to Nazis! Read it again and concentrate this time. I said both were historic. The missed point (maybe it was missed…or perhaps you are, as I suspect, you are playing a predictable card) is that being “historic” is not necessarily a good thing. Again the obvious eludes you. They are no other comparisons, as I also noted in my original comment.
    And please, understand I am here to discuss issues, not make friends or influence people, particularly anonymous ones. Your “assumptions” about me have no bearing or interest to me.
    I accept your age as true.

    “Sorry I should not have assumed the obvious. It was more an issue of going off on unrelated tangents thus causing length than it was about giving a complete answer. Point being, one conversation at a time.”

    In my discussions with you I have taken a single post and responded to the different points made. Your comments have multiple subjects, just as this one does. I respond to each.

  568. Hey JJ…
    almost got my ass kick because i saw this group perform(MSU campus)…..you guessed it—-I’m white….

    Sometimes I’m right then I can be wrong

    for the tea partyers……Stand—you been sitting much to long….

    and just for fun(I put the headphones on for this one)

  569. Love reading your take on current affairs. Thanks for sticking with us.

  570. I agree, it was hypocritical to ignore Bush’s debt. I wrote at least once that the Republicans deserved to lose Congress because of their spending.To be fair, Democrats were largely at fault after they took over, but Bush could have vetoed the worst bills.

    People expressed concern, but it was like a brush fire smoldering in a road ditch. After the crash, people became frightened and paid attention to the unprecedented surge in spending. The brush fire suddenly exploded in the grass land. That is what energized the Tea Party and Americans who shared their beliefs. At first, the Tea Party was left to its own devices because the party establishment and Democrats didn’t know what to make of them.

    After they energized conservatives and independents the money flowed in. The Tea Party gave the Republicans a spine and they capitalized on it. Obama care and Democrats’ freezing Republicans from most of the major discussion helped. Nancy Pelosi’s saying they would have to pass the bill to learn what was in it fueled more enthusiasm.

    The do nothing congress is real, but it is also a concept as the Monkeys were. The Democrats know this is their best way to keep Obama in the White House and win some seats in Congress. They are using the pulpit to paint Republicans as obstructionists when in reality both parties are at fault. Do Nothing Congress may work for them.

    I don’t want Obama to fail as a president. I want some of his policies to fail. For example, the EPA wanted to restrict the amount of dust a farm will produce. The government also wanted to prevent young people from working on neighbors’ farms until age 18. This would have a serious impact on detasstling. The Keystone Pipe LIne has been studied for three years. The proposed route has changed away from the Ogalalla Aquifer to slightly west of our house.

    Obama wants to delay a decision until after the election because environmentalists oppose the pipe line, and labor unions favor it. The Canadians are miffed and they threaten to sell the oil to China. Cap and Trade is another policy I want to fail. Hoping for policies to fail is different from rooting for an adminstration to collapse and bring down the country.

    I have agreed with much of Obama’s foreign policy, and what is connected with the wars is basically a continuation of Bush’s strategy.

    The stalled Congress belongs to both parties and it disturbs me, but I am still proud. Hispanics, Brits, Germans, and now Russians want to come here. We are still special.

  571. James – “Yes, the Tea Party elected some metaphorical bomb throwers. I warned people they could do harm to both parties when the concesus here was that they were an ignorant group of yahoos would soon fade away. However, they saved us from Obama’s agenda. His successes have been limited since that election.”

    I believe a larger part of the TP’ers “success” is related to the desire of some conservatives to line up without question, the amount of money that was put into that election and the Dems who sat home ticked off they didn’t get what they wanted.

    Where was the big concern about our debt before Obama? I believe it became the “HUGE” issue because it was a way to PREVENT Obama and the Democratic party from having any success.

    Obama fails we all fail. We have a do nothing congress and this makes you a proud American?

    Peace.

  572. While you research this site, Stephen, I suggest you travel back to August before last. I think my memory is correct about the time. It was an amusing little episode in which some of the posters who are mostly gone now tried to vote me off the site.

  573. Anon, about fun with folks like NOP. We are going to die. Why waste your time on something distasteful? Even shoveling snow is fun on the right day.

    Simon, I believe TARP saved us. Do you remember the ashen faces after the meeting in the White House when Bush announced our need to find a solution quickly? It was almost like 9/11 again.

    Yes, the Tea Party elected some metaphorical bomb throwers. I warned people they could do harm to both parties when the concesus here was that they were an ignorant group of yahoos would soon fade away. However, they saved us from Obama’s agenda. His successes have been limited since that election.

  574. Our freedoms ARE under attack. This has some startling implications.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/minnesota-land-right-fight-commissioner-calls-constitution-old-document/

  575. Stephen, if you are who you say you are, we who post here deserve consideration too. We are more than specimens. Your level of education doesn’t impress me because many who post on this site have been to school also.

    I hope you feel you owe us the courtesy of sharing your conclusions with our little group. Competing wolf packs comes to mind.

    I am not impressed if Isaac and Eric are representative of your group. A message to both:

    “Ingen barte-bondetamp kan stoppe denne fyren
    Jeg har fumlet rundt i morket men jeg har funnet veine ut og jeg skal aldn’ tilbake did igien.”

    You will impress me if you tell us what I wrote.

    James

  576. Don’t worry Cynthia, you’ve never had the character to admit when your wrong, this isn’t news. You said you did your research, came up empty and presented it as fact. In 1 minute I proved you wrong and a liar. To quote Forest, thats all I have to say about that.

  577. lmao. and i mean this in the best possible way Stephen, but I called it with my gated community, soup kitchen comment. Enjoy your time here.

  578. “I noted Cynthia you did not comment on me take you down and making a fool of you. A liar and a coward. But you are right. Our youth have a terrible mess to clean up that you and others like you have made.”

    Excuse me you said something… you took me down? When did that happen? I missed it?!? Damn.

    Noah, my dear, you would have to have a place of importance in my mind for me to be offended by any thing you may say about me.

    Besides I don’t think we are inhabiting the same world.

  579. Simon,

    I’ve been down this same path before and it brings to mind a song from my past that seems apropos in the moment. Enjoy.

  580. Mrs. Philpot,

    By way of introduction, I belong to a group of professional men and women who get together from time to time for lunch and discussions. Isaac and Eric are colleagues who have commented here recently. Some of us were veterans in our youth and thus able to complete our education on the GI Bill. We are physical and social scientists, engineers, an economist, MBAs and yes, a lawyer. As you can imagine, the conversation becomes lively with such a diverse gathering.

    The phenomenon of social networking has taken off with astonishing speed during the past few years. We think it would be an interesting project to do some research into popular blogs such as yours. Since you post rather infrequently, we note that some of your fans have staked out claims and established their own little fiefdoms with their comments.

    With your permission, we would like to divide up the comments between ourselves, going back quite some time, collect data and do some statistical analysis. Of course, the information would be held in the strictest confidence much as political polls are.

    From time to time each of us might visit the site and even ask some questions. We would most certainly identify ourselves as to what our purpose is. We have no political agenda or ulterior motives other than to gather data. This will no doubt be a long range study. So for now, I wish you a joyful holiday season.

    Stephen

  581. UAW that video was awesome. For anything to be funny there must be some element of truth to it.

  582. Your obsession with the “criminal” aspect of OWS shows you really have nothing else to offer.

    This is what we call an admission of defeat and a discussion closer. A comment born out of frustration. I will accept it for what it is.

    There were thousands upon thousands of protestors with the TP as well, yet no criminal activity except for people attacking them. compared to the Tea Party, OWS had an enormous amount of crime. The fact you keep downplaying it just proves the point I have been making all along.

    I will never pass up an opportunity to dig.

    To each their own. Integrity is not for everyone.

    “The Tea Party is indeed historical. So was Nazism.”

    This probably tells me all I need to know about you. To compare one to the other is outrageous. I misjudged you. You are not at all what I thought you were, but that is on me.

    I also find it telling that the Tea Party were able to accomplish so much with no violence in your opinion is not enough to warrant respect for this accomplishment. I am of the mindset that the world would be a far better place if people could organize and enact change in a non violent manor.

    “There is not a single OWS supporter who will condone any crime.”
    What about the man who condoned 9/11 and asked for it to happen 911 more times. Guess I found 1.

    “There are, however, Tea Party supporters who will condone, even demand, the unrestricted right to act irresponsibly in public settings, and cheerfully do so on national television. ”

    Subjective terms to prove a point. Irresponsible action in your book is speaking ones mind. Irresponsible in my mind is spending money like a drunken sailor and passing our debt burden onto our kids. It is also not lost on me you compare and contrast gang rapes and murder to verbal altercations.

    Now we are heading down the old Liberal path of person issues. Having read the Nazi statement and have been forced to reevaluate certain assumptions I made about you, so I will bite to see where this leads. I am 51 years old.

    Sorry I should not have assumed the obvious. It was more an issue of going off on unrelated tangents thus causing length than it was about giving a complete answer. Point being, one conversation at a time.

  583. LMAO
    for the OWS

  584. Simon….
    I’m simply trying to point out (IMO) that the Republicans are not solely to blame as some people think……Yes Bush signed the bill….Could it have been a case of better than nothing…..
    Yes …..Gingrich was reprimanded and fined for ethic violations concerning tax laws…..in 1999 the IRS found that Newt did not violate tax laws and was therefor cleared of wrongdoing…..Shouldn’t he be reimbursed for his fine????? So today Newt is being kicked around for NOT doing anything wrong……and Pelosi wants to drop some”dirt” on him….which is a House ethics violation itself…….if that happens shouldn’t Pelosi herself be reprimanded or censured……

  585. “233 filed police reports are not mythology. Procedures set in place for OWS security forces to deal with criminal acts because the police could not handle it all. Why do you consider this mythology?”

    The mythology is the insistence that OWS condones or members have participated in criminal activity as a matter of course. 233 filed police reports out of thousands of activities which were in no way criminal is a small percentage. Your obsession with the “criminal” aspect of OWS shows you really have nothing else to offer.

    “The purpose of my admission of misspelling was 2 fold.
    1. To show I can admit when I am wrong. I admit I am a spell check junkie.
    2. To see if your intention was genuine or to see if you would take the lower road to grab in a dig, knowing what was the 2nd entry on that page. I think we have our answer.”

    A brilliant tactic. Let the word go out far and wide, I will never pass up an opportunity to dig.

    “Again, TP’ers were historical. Worth of note in any honest discussion. Note, the point of this all started on tactics, not points of merit of each party. Having soundly lost that argument you kept shifting focus to each groups agenda. If you are so bent on having that discussion I am happy to oblige. I was just desperately trying to stay on topic and have one conversation at a time because as I mentioned before, our posts were getting epic in length. These unrelated tangents only served to make the posts longer while ignoring the original premise.”

    The Tea Party is indeed historical. So was Nazism. The only connection being that a contribution to history is not necessarily worthy of admiration.
    The problem we have is in your insistence that OWS contains overwhelming criminal elements, or that it supports such crimes, when there is zero evidence to such an assertion. There is not a single OWS supporter who will condone any crime. There are, however, Tea Party supporters who will condone, even demand, the unrestricted right to act irresponsibly in public settings, and cheerfully do so on national television.

    There is no guarantee that what you want to discuss will remain the focus of any conversation, here or in the non-virtual world. I am beginning to wonder about your age, only because you suggest a naivete that is telling. A guess would be that you are in your mid to late twenties. Just an observation, not, as you will no doubt take it, an insult.

    As for “epic length”, length is sometimes required when discussing complicated subjects. There is no requirement, however, to either read or comment on such posts.

  586. 233 filed police reports are not mythology. Procedures set in place for OWS security forces to deal with criminal acts because the police could not handle it all. Why do you consider this mythology?

    The purpose of my admission of misspelling was 2 fold.
    1. To show I can admit when I am wrong. I admit I am a spell check junkie.
    2. To see if your intention was genuine or to see if you would take the lower road to grab in a dig, knowing what was the 2nd entry on that page. I think we have our answer.

    Again, TP’ers were historical. Worth of note in any honest discussion. Note, the point of this all started on tactics, not points of merit of each party. Having soundly lost that argument you kept shifting focus to each groups agenda. If you are so bent on having that discussion I am happy to oblige. I was just desperately trying to stay on topic and have one conversation at a time because as I mentioned before, our posts were getting epic in length. These unrelated tangents only served to make the posts longer while ignoring the original premise.

  587. “Semantics, semantics and more semantics.
    OWS have a strong criminal element, not a criminal enterprise. please keep it straight. very very simple to do.”

    Nor does OWS have a “strong criminal element”. This is nonsense. OWS is made up of tens of thousands of people worldwide. It is convenient for you to believe Right Wing mythology, but that does not make it true.

    “Again noted your inability to respond a historical success of the Tea Party is telling. I appreciate the civility you have shown but it is my concerted opinion you are agenda driven. You have predetermined, preconceived notions, and are not open minded to alternative ideologies. Taking a pass twice cements this notion for me.”

    The Tea Party is successful in electing metaphorical bomb throwers to the US House and Senate, which have also succeeded in bringing the workings of government to a halt, to the detriment not only of American citizens, but to their own party as well. They may well succeed in destroying the Republican Party, in the way Gingrich and his merry band of anarchists almost did in the 1990s. This would, by the way, not be a good thing for the country. We need two parties with good sense and an ability to govern to the benefit of the entire country, not the moneyed interests alone.

    To suggest I am “agenda driven” suggests you are not. This takes the intellectual dishonesty you pretend to deplore to a new level. We are both partisans for our respective world views, something for which there is no need for apology or excuse.

    “Got it from here.
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hanus

    Quoting your source: “An idiotic misspelling of the word “heinous”.
    I agree.
    Still, perhaps Merriam-Webster may be a better resource for future spelling clarifications.

  588. Got it from here.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hanus

  589. Semantics, semantics and more semantics.
    OWS have a strong criminal element, not a criminal enterprise. please keep it straight. very very simple to do.

    Again noted your inability to respond a historical success of the Tea Party is telling. I appreciate the civility you have shown but it is my concerted opinion you are agenda driven. You have predetermined, preconceived notions, and are not open minded to alternative ideologies. Taking a pass twice cements this notion for me. I hope you stick around, to few of us on here that can be in complete disagreement and not comment on each others families or other unnecessary inflammatory remarks.

  590. “I remember that rant but I think the movement inspired Rick…..apparently(IMO) Rick and the others had previous conversations and Rick just verbalized what most people there felt….
    that rant about bailing out banks and derivatives could also be said to have started OWS……”

    Santelli’s comments preceded the “Tea Party” as an organized movement and the Tea Party Patriots credit Santelli for inspiring their formation.

    “Isn’t it strange that a bill pushed through congress by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid is Bushes fault…….”

    Didn’t Bush sign the first TARP legislation? Was there no veto pen handy?

    “McCain on 1/16/2009 on anti-tarp resolution
    “No further TARP funds should be released until we are able to impose strict standards of accountability and ensure that the
    money is spent only as intended by Congress –- to purchase mortgage-backed securities and other troubled assets and provide help to homeowners who are on the brink of losing their most important investment and roofs over their heads,” said McCain in a written statement.”

    I believe McCain was in the Senate at the time of TARP’s deliberations and supported its passing.
    It was widely considered at the time that bailouts of financial institutions was required to prevent another Depression. Both sides feared this outcome and took that drastic action together.

  591. So we are paranoid huh?

    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/chuck-norris/2011/12/20/feds-war-religion-part-1-2

  592. “You can trivialize the fact you did not have the courage, in this case political courage, to throw a movement you support under the bus for the terrible things done. I will let you have the last comment on this point as I think we are at an impasse here”

    You are extremely dense.
    I throw the Mafia “under the bus”. I do not throw OWS under anything because of isolated incidents. Denouncing a movement for something it does not condone nor is responsible for is not courage, it is cowardice.

    “OSW people somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000 crimes, yet they are not criminals. This is political double speak, nothing more. According to the standards you have set forth, 100%would need to commit crimes for the OWS movement to be criminal. I think we are all intelligent enough to know this kind of an argument is a farce. End of the day this movement has a strong element of criminal activity, committing some of the most hanus crimes we have laws for. PERIOD!”

    It is nothing of the kind. The citizens of New York are not considered criminal because of crimes committed in that city, whether or not the crimes are committed by citizens themselves.
    By the way, the word is “heinous”. I mention this only because this is the second time you have spelled it so, suggesting that the practice is no simple typo.

    “On your video link. I see two things. One I see you violating your own standard and taking not a 1000 like I am, but 1 person to paint an entire movement. Then I see a Liberal reporter asking questions of the worst kind. They are leading, they are obvious traps for a person with an agenda to push. This reporter has predetermined conclusions and used questions to steer the conversation seeking any and all gotcha moments. When the man would not take a walk down the road laid before him, Matthews then let his agenda out and asked him directly. This man schooled Matthew’s punk ass and made him look the fool he is.”

    I offered the link not as a representative of the entire movement, but rather as a spokesman for the gun toting mindset. He is a Tea Party supporter. If you will, provide me with any record of a single OWS protester supporting criminal acts such as murder, rape, kidnapping, etc.

    “Sadly this is how Liberals argue. There is no honest pursuit of the truth. There is no desire to get along, to work together. This is why we have problems, this is why we cannot fix things. This abject dishonesty creates an environment that breaks down any attempts at honest and fruitful debate to come to solutions. I thank you for this link. I have saved it to my permanent files to use as an example of what we have to expect when dealing with the Liberal mind.

    To your statesman point, you are really starting to disappoint me. To use past and present tense as a basis of an argument to me seems beneath you. I may have used the wrong tense but my meaning was clear. A very dishonest ploy on your part.”

    Where is the honesty in claiming OWS is a criminal enterprise because of the actions of some people who may or may not have been involved in criminal acts in or around the site of the protest? That is intellectual dishonesty, by definition.
    You are welcome for the link. It should give you an example of extremist thinking paraded proudly for all to see, which was the intention in posting it.
    Another link demonstrated what OWS is really all about, but that link will not be mentioned by the propagandists who you have already mentioned provide you with the faulty information on which you base your point of view.

    “To your statesman point, you are really starting to disappoint me. To use past and present tense as a basis of an argument to me seems beneath you. I may have used the wrong tense but my meaning was clear. A very dishonest ploy on your part.”

    Being wrong on such a simple historical fact regarding Gingrich’s term in the House and what caused him to leave it is no small matter. He was forced out as Speaker by his own Party after violating his Party’s own ethics violations. Your “meaning” was clear, yes, you think such a person is a “Statesman”. You were wrong on every count.

  593. James, I think you have your Puppet and I have my Cynthia. I think each has taken an extreme disliking to each of us respectively and their soul purpose seems to be to get a gottcha or just to flat out discredit us. Its is personal and transcends any points of intellectual merit or logic. At least you seem to have fun with your stalker.

  594. Simon….
    I remember that rant but I think the movement inspired Rick…..apparently(IMO) Rick and the others had previous conversations and Rick just verbalized what most people there felt….
    that rant about bailing out banks and derivatives could also be said to have started OWS……
    Isn’t it strange that a bill pushed through congress by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid is Bushes fault…….
    McCain on 1/16/2009 on anti-tarp resolution
    “No further TARP funds should be released until we are able to impose strict standards of accountability and ensure that the
    money is spent only as intended by Congress –- to purchase mortgage-backed securities and other troubled assets and provide help to homeowners who are on the brink of losing their most important investment and roofs over their heads,” said McCain in a written statement.

  595. I don’t mean to speak for alaskapi, but I will anyway. I don’t think she meant personal responsibility as such is a goofy idea. I think she thought the Tea Party overly relied on the concept to fix our system.

    Personal responsibility built this country. It is one reason bi- coastal employers favor heartland farm kids for jobs. The stereotype is of people who are self motivators, work hard and lack a strong sense of entitlement.

    Our welfare state is eroding the sense of personal responsibility we need. We see it in people who bought houses they couldn’t afford or students who attended expensive schools like Harvard and majored in under water basket weaving. They made bad choices. That, combined with bad luck put them in their sad positions.

  596. alaskapi, it does seem like Ground Hog Day here doesn’t it? I like the Iron Triangle article. We are ruled by group oligarchies who run their own spheres of influence don’t we?

    It reminds me of an old Kingston Trio spoof of the Streets of Lorado. “get yourself and outfit and be a cowboy too.” Find your self an organization and be a special interest too.

    I don’t know how or if we can change the system or what would crash down if we could.

    I think this is evolving into a regional triangles like the EU and later a North American or American alliance.

    Special interest groups take what they want and buy the rest of the people out until the money runs out. Then what?

  597. Since you may still be here, the Omaha World Herald wrote that Hurricane Irene dropped over five inches of rain on an area the size of he Nebraska Panhandle. Much of that water flowed quickly to the nearby ocean in many rivers.

    The same average amount of rain covered an area the size of all of Nebraska on the Upper Missouri River basin. Moreover, it had to flow a thousand miles down only one river.

    That flood came and went. Much of our land was under water for five months, and we still have a ten acre pond.

    My original post illustrated the flood to show that Obama doesn’t care about our people, but you argued our disaster was just a hangnail in the general scheme of things. You were wrong.

  598. Nop, you are as wrong about that as you were about our flood. If you believe the Tea Party as a group misbehaved, you are again as ignorant of the movement as you were about our flood. There is no comparison between the Tea Party and the bad apples who made OWS look bad.

    Do you want examples of how someone can defend a group to which he doesn’t belong? Just for starters, try the Sami independence movement or the Fennians. You are a smart woman, but that comment was just plain dumb.

    I’ve written before that Obama may win another election, and one reason is the Tea Party’s inability to compromise their principals.

  599. alaskapi “As far as I am concerned though the TP derail in that they mostly simply want to get rid of any notion of social policy and justice in favor of some pretty goofy notions of personal responsibility being an adequate defense against the excesses of the economic hogwash that neoliberal policy rains down on us all.”

    My experience with the TP’s is one rally and about 2 hours of time being there and talking with people. Keep that in mind. That said

    Tea Party people are not against social programs. They are against social programs that we cannot pay for. They are against reckless deficit spending. There is a difference in your notion and mine, and I think it is a significant one.

    We have to agree to disagree on the notion that personal responsibility is a goofy notion. Government assistance needs to be a hand up to get people to a place of self reliance, not a entity that amputates and becomes a permanent crutch. People are not helpless, people are not stupid, and people can survive without government assistance.

  600. I like flash mobs. Its nice to see the fad continues.

    I saw a video of some OWS groups practicing. Those groups needed more work. They should have watched Resurrection Sunday Dance, Budapest, Hungary to see how its done.

    I didn’t know Europe still had 1300 practicing Christians in one country. Ha!

    Or, they might have borrowed from EF Flashmob.4 countries International record (official version). It was done by an educational group promoting international student contacts.

    It was a nice effort but it could have been better and more memorable as the two I mentioned.

  601. The Puppet is a sad example of how small minded Liberals are. Myopic more be more accurate.

    “James, you can’t defend the Tea Party at every turn, and then say,, you aren’t one of them”

    Yes you can. I defend the OWS people right to protest. I support some of the notions they make about out of control capitolism and corruption in our government. But as a whole the movement is a dismal failure and a lesson on how NOT to protest. I support the right for people to do many things I disagree with and I will defend that to the death because I want that right for myself. To deny them is to deny myself. Sad such a simple concept eludes you.

  602. Simon, you are using semantics to defend, and not defend your points. You bring these points of semantics up in the context of these crimes, but say they have nothing to do with explaining the crimes, so why bring it up? Cake and eat it to phrase comes to mind.

    To your saying nothing, and all the people in the left, well it was obvious so I didn’t need to raise my voice, you should have been able to feel my empathy from afar I quote again.

    “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing” Edmund Burke

    You can trivialize the fact you did not have the courage, in this case political courage, to throw a movement you support under the bus for the terrible things done. I will let you have the last comment on this point as I think we are at an impasse here,

    “To claim OWS consists of criminals is nonsense,”

    Again this is where common sense fails. The TP”ers commit no crimes, and you cannot admit the positive side to them. Again name me one protest in history that has accomplished as much as they did without any violence. I noted no admission on this historical fact either.

    OSW people somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000 crimes, yet they are not criminals. This is political double speak, nothing more. According to the standards you have set forth, 100%would need to commit crimes for the OWS movement to be criminal. I think we are all intelligent enough to know this kind of an argument is a farce. End of the day this movement has a strong element of criminal activity, committing some of the most hanus crimes we have laws for. PERIOD!

    On your video link. I see two things. One I see you violating your own standard and taking not a 1000 like I am, but 1 person to paint an entire movement. Then I see a Liberal reporter asking questions of the worst kind. They are leading, they are obvious traps for a person with an agenda to push. This reporter has predetermined conclusions and used questions to steer the conversation seeking any and all gotcha moments. When the man would not take a walk down the road laid before him, Matthews then let his agenda out and asked him directly. This man schooled Matthew’s punk ass and made him look the fool he is.

    Sadly this is how Liberals argue. There is no honest pursuit of the truth. There is no desire to get along, to work together. This is why we have problems, this is why we cannot fix things. This abject dishonesty creates an environment that breaks down any attempts at honest and fruitful debate to come to solutions. I thank you for this link. I have saved it to my permanent files to use as an example of what we have to expect when dealing with the Liberal mind.

    To your statesman point, you are really starting to disappoint me. To use past and present tense as a basis of an argument to me seems beneath you. I may have used the wrong tense but my meaning was clear. A very dishonest ploy on your part.

    I noted Cynthia you did not comment on me take you down and making a fool of you. A liar and a coward. But you are right. Our youth have a terrible mess to clean up that you and others like you have made.

  603. I agree there is some common ground between the groups, specifically the problem of corporate control over our government, and have stated so in an earlier post.
    My argument is with those who caricature OWS, as a result of Right Wing propaganda posing as “news”, as violent thugs.

  604. “The other wants to continue that system intact.” …..so which one?????
    Didn’t the Tea Party first get started to protest the Wall Street and banking bailout??????
    21,25,&33 are interesting….

    https://teaparty-centrists.com/Platforms.html

    The movement was inspired by this rant:

  605. A Wall Street Journal opinion piece says, Obama wins reelection without so much as a campaign, you might want to read it. James, you can’t defend the Tea Party at every turn, and then say,, you aren’t one of them. Based on their, the tea party, behavior, I am considering using of the more earthy term for members of the group, it just seems appropriate for such low-hanging fruit!

  606. I agree with alaskapi.

    As one of the few posting here who has actually seen a rally I know that “They are absolutely against the marriage of centrist political notions and neoliberal economic policy…” They were more effective than OWS because many are small business people and they operated the protests as they would a business.

    Their commonality with OWS stated concerns is reflected in some Tea Party people at few of the OWS protests. Their “goofy” notions of the power of personal responsibility mirror the OWS “goofy” socialist notions.

    The two movements should merge, compromise, and stay independent of the corrupting influence of outside aid. NASCAR drivers often work together until the end of a race. United we stand and all of that.

  607. I stand corrected on my evaluation of OWS. Here is proof of at least one violent action perpetrated by this obviously ruthless band of international criminals.

    http://front.moveon.org/100-occupiers-flash-mobbed-san-francisco-and-this-is-what-happened/

  608. The other wants to continue that system intact.” …..so which one?????
    Didn’t the Tea Party first get started to protest the Wall Street and banking bailout??????
    21,25,&33 are interesting….

    https://teaparty-centrists.com/Platforms.html

  609. Alaskapi, I agree with you.

  610. As much as it pains my old democratic socialist bones to say it Simon- I think you are only partially correct.
    The Tea Party thingy does not want to keep continue the system intact.
    They are absolutely against the marraige of centrist political notions and neoliberal economic policy which has governed our country’s course for at least 20 years and in that they do mirror OWS.
    As far as I am concerned though the TP derail in that they mostly simply want to get rid of any notion of social policy and justice in favor of some pretty goofy notions of personal responsibility being an adequate defense against the excesses of the economic hogwash that neoliberal policy rains down on us all. That is not a desire to keep the current system intact.

  611. Thank you, and a peaceful and happy season and new year to you, as well, Cynthia.

  612. “However, one is attempting to wake up the vast majority of this country, and the world, to the inequities of our system and how we are all affected, whether we think so or not. The other wants to continue that system intact.”

    Perfect!!!!

    Thank God for young people who attempt to clean up the mess their elders made!

    Peace.

  613. pithy and too the point!

  614. In reviewing this thread, I must note this comment, from whichever of the numerous “Anonymice” hanging around here:
    In reference to “Newt as Statesman”,

    “He is in congress and has served for decades. He has extensive experience in both domestic and foreign affairs. What part of this fails your definition of statesman?”

    He is not in Congress, nor has he been since his own party kicked him out the Speaker’s chair for ethics violations in 1999. His total congressional career was four years, hardly decades.
    He has been a fairly obscure lobbyist since that time, until his recent return to the spotlight.
    I would further suggest that a “Statesman” does not say things like this:
    “I am convinced that if we do not decisively win the struggle over the nature of America, by the time [my grandchildren are] my age they will be in a secular atheist country, potentially one dominated by radical Islamists and with no understanding of what it once meant to be an American.”

  615. “Simon, the Tea Party/weapons quote was mine, as Anon wrote. If I was in charge, I wouldn’t have allowed weapons. I mentioned it because the Tea Parties had such a good reputation that the police let them bring weapons to demonstrate their second amendment rights. The fire arms were being used as props. The Tea Parties behavior was, on the whole better than the OWS peoples’. I cited that incident to support my statement.”

    Thank you for that clarification, and I apologize to you for the confusion.
    I have provided ample commentary on OWS and the Tea Party, including the opinions of a gun toting participant in a political rally.
    Still, neither movement exists to promote violence, and any suggestion otherwise is ridiculous. However, one is attempting to wake up the vast majority of this country, and the world, to the inequities of our system and how we are all affected, whether we think so or not. The other wants to continue that system intact.

  616. “Because to say nothing is to support something. Because it was not obvious based on your responses. You made excuses for why these hanus crimes occurred and tried to give reasons to support why it was no big deal and that I was overreacting.”

    Then permit me to add these other obvious facts to the list. So there is no confusion as to where I stand, water is wet and the Earth revolves around the Sun. There are others I could add, if it is necessary for me to state as many obvious facts as I can think of. The idea that any sane person supports crime is idiotic and your suggestion otherwise calls into question your comprehension skills.

    They are also called into question when you are presented with facts and seem unable to grasp what they mean. I noted many liberals are disappointed with Obama’s political style. Nevertheless, he has accomplished a great deal, as I documented. That you do not approve of those accomplishments is irrelevant to that fact.
    I made no “excuses” for violence, I noted that bad things happen in large groups put together for long periods of time. This is not an “excuse”, it is a statement of fact. Apparently, you weep nightly for the crimes committed in big cities every day. They are all travesties to civilization, but they happen and big cities do not exist to give criminals free rein. For the record, I do not approve of those, either.

    OWS’s reason for existence is not to perpetrate crimes. It is to bring awareness to the economic disaster brought about by corporate control of our government. Yes, any crime against any person is a tragedy. To claim OWS consists of criminals is nonsense, just like the rest of the nonsense Rush, Hannity, Savage and Miller have filled your ears with. If this is all you have left, your quill, or should I say clip, is quite empty.

    Here is an enthusiastic Tea Party supporter offering his reasons for involvement appearing at a political rally with firearms at his side:

    Also, I apologize for confusing your comments with those of “James”. Your positions pretty much mirror one another, but you are individuals. I regret the error.

  617. James- I have no clue what you can do in your area . I know what I think is important in mine though explaining it fully and in context would try the patience of anyone else who visits here.
    One of the reasons I put this here, (gasp!) wikipedia link and all :
    —————————————
    For those scattered all over both sides of the aisle , including those reluctant to actually choose a place to sit-
    What portion of our problems flow from a structure viewed like this?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_triangle_(US_politics)

    ————————————–
    was to try to come at some of it all from a slightly different angle.
    No takers apparently.
    I’m getting into a Pffft! frame of mind about the endless grinding away at the same old points we all engage in. Was hoping we could take a different run at some of it all…

  618. UAW-
    Problem is that kid working to to go to school is the one hearing he’s lazy and acting like he’s owed something when he tries to talk about how WAAAYYY too much college costs .
    Or when he tries to talk about how he thinks there’s something wrong with a system that leaves young people dependant on their folks, if the parents do have the means,for way too long or put themselves in enormous debt to get an education and that options for decent work at the other end have shrunk dramatically, he gets told yet again that education is the key to success alongside hard work.
    The refusal to engage with young people or blame them for the catch-22s the system puts them in is wrong. This young man worked for me for 2 years after he gave up on college. His resentments towards society is squarely at Wall Street and economic bigwigs who have worked so hard to financialize every human activity , to squeeze dollars out of all human exchanges , and measure worth in dollars alone. He’s got a lot of anger at the all too cozy arrangement regulators and big business have all too often.
    He grew up in Libby, Montana- google it and its history with big business- and will also always live with the threat of health problems the cavalier behavior of the WR Grace Co towards its workers and the town created. He will be tracked as part of an asbestos- exposure control group for the rest of his life.
    To him, the Tea Party ideas just pave the way for more WR Graces to ruin more lives and communities. To him, OWS is the beginning of breaking the WR Graces.
    Right or wrong, he is a real person trying to figure out if he has a place in our society and trying to follow all the rules and is getting slapped at every turn.
    Sorry- Newt has advanced nothing which would help this demographic. This young man already works hard and could care less about punishing some who don’t. he’s battling a “why-should-I-work-so-hard -when-it-gets-me-nowhere ? ” impulse more and more. Newt couldn’t care less.

  619. Simon, the Tea Party/weapons quote was mine, as Anon wrote. If I was in charge, I wouldn’t have allowed weapons. I mentioned it because the Tea Parties had such a good reputation that the police let them bring weapons to demonstrate their second amendment rights. The fire arms were being used as props. The Tea Parties behavior was, on the whole better than the OWS peoples’. I cited that incident to support my statement.

  620. from a year ago JJ….

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/08/tax-cut-deal-a-hidden-thr_n_793983.html

  621. Didn’t see anything in the article about Boehner being stupid……
    Not finishing the work you were elected to do is stupid……Sounds like McCain realizes he has to stay in DC and finish his job….Does Reid…..

  622. Even John McCain says Boehner not passing the Pay Roll Tax Bill was stupid.

    http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/mccain-payroll-tax-standoff-harming-republ

  623. I guess on the topic of OWS we have to agree to disagree as my moral compass demands the following.
    1 Murder is too man
    1 Rape is too many
    1 Gang Rape is too many …I think you get the point.
    I will also disagree 230 reported crimes, with some 800-1000 crimes that went unreported or discouraged from being reported, is not a small number. The excuse that it was a lot of people for a long time is not an excuse I find acceptable. Nor do I think any reasonable person would.

    My central theme is simply this. Setting aside the purpose of each group, the Tea Party set the standard on how to successful protest from a moral, and a result standpoint. Name me one protest that accomplished as much as the Tea Party did without violence. I should amend that to mean no violence done by them to others. There was a lot of violence done to them.

    On the topic of Obama, several people in his own party have said he takes little active involvement in the negotiation process behind closed doors. The quote said something to the effect that he seems to prefer to leave the negotiations to others and that they got the sense that he did not want to participate and actually seemed to not enjoy this aspect of politics.

    Obama’s list of broken promises is out there for anyone to see. In the last couple weeks I have getting 2 or more new articles from Liberals, from left wing news sources and reporters that normally defend Obama openly attacking the President for not only his failure to get anything done, but strongly criticizing how he is conducting himself on current issues.

    I don’t expect you or any other Liberal to admit there is any problems. I expect for you to fight to the bitter end. And I expect when you lose, there will be a plethora of excuses how a number of injustices that caused it to happen. But never will there be any personal responsibility. We will have a President who for 4 years accomplished little, and it was always someone elses fault.

    P.S. “why should I waste time stating the obvious?”

    Because to say nothing is to support something. Because it was not obvious based on your responses. You made excuses for why these hanus crimes occurred and tried to give reasons to support why it was no big deal and that I was overreacting.

  624. Haven’t read your responses but I have had several of my posts removed as well. A pretty clear sign this blog is moving toward censorship.

  625. Ah, success!

  626. Anonymous,

    For reasons unknown WordPress is not posting the rest of my response to you, then it is claiming I have already posted it. Very frustrating. I will continue to paraphrase the original commentary, as I think educating you beyond your usual media sources is important.

    The number of vacations taken by Bush in his first year was more than any president before him.

    A list of President Obama’s legislative achievements can be found here:

    http://www.theprogressivesinfluence.com/2011/08/barack-obama-legislative-and-executive.html

    Mr. Obama’s style has disappointed many supporters, who find his pragmatism and centrist stances to be weak. However, when reminded of what he has accomplished and with what the opposition offers in contrast, they return home.

    I never offered a list of anything regarding the Tea Party, so I am not obligated to provide one. OWS brought to the attention of the world the disastrous results of corporate control over government, while the Tea Party seems well on its way to destroying the Republican Party.
    A hearty “Well done!” to them both.

  627. Okay, WordPress is not permitting me to continue this discussion at this time. I shall try again later.

  628. Permit me to add, your unsubstiated claim that the criminals involved were
    “OWS people” is also irresponsible.

  629. “Since the obvious has gone unanswered let me spell it out. The OWS people who murdered, raped, gang raped, endangered and abused children and more, you make excuses for and try to explain away and you did not condemn their actions. The Tea Party does something you perceive as a potential threat, nothing happens, and you are up in arms? Really?”

    If it is obvious any sane person condems the violent actions of criminals, which I do, why should I waste time stating the obvious? Your obsession with a small minority of incidents, particularly given, as I have pointed out, the large numbers of participants in many different locations for long periods of time, is odd indeed.
    Now perhaps I can continue with the rest of my discussion, should the mechanics of WordPress permit me to do so.

  630. It appears this blog is not permitting me to continue my response to the mysterious “Anonymous”, as I have tried to post the rest numerous times with no success. I will continue in my attempts, for I have more to say.

  631. I believe your second to last paragraph there is quoting James, not me.

    You said
    230 incidents from thousands of people in close quarters, in many different locations, for weeks at a time, with little control as to who came and went, or when they did so. As I noted, bad things can happen in large groups. The Tea Party affairs consisted primarily of middle aged white people together for a few hours at most.

    And You said
    The potential dangers of people walking around in a public place openly armed with guns needs to be explained to you? That you would proudly count yourself among such groups demonstrates that you have little understanding of social responsibility.

    Since the obvious has gone unanswered let me spell it out. The OWS people who murdered, raped, gang raped, endangered and abused children and more, you make excuses for and try to explain away and you did not condemn their actions. The Tea Party does something you perceive as a potential threat, nothing happens, and you are up in arms? Really?

    This would highlight for me, better than I ever could, the contradiction I find myself always facing from those on the Left. It seems that on issues of Left and Right activity, we are being asked to deal with two different sets of rules and morality. Why would you find this kind of reasoning acceptable?

  632. “230 handfuls of reported crimes. They predict somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 times that that went unreported or where people were discouraged from reporting. How many did your count have on the Tea Party?”

    230 incidents from thousands of people in close quarters, in many different locations, for weeks at a time, with little control as to who came and went, or when they did so. As I noted, bad things can happen in large groups. The Tea Party affairs consisted primarily of middle aged white people together for a few hours at most.

    “I happen to believe in guns and carry one myself. I have no problems with this. IF they broke a law they should be punished. How many people got shot? That number would be zero. So your problem with this is…what?”

    The potential dangers of people walking around in a public place openly armed with guns needs to be explained to you? That you would proudly count yourself among such groups demonstrates that you have little understanding of social responsibility.

    “Could you quite me where I did that? Thanks in advance.”

    I attended several demonstrations, though I am not a Tea Party member, and I saw no weapons. I do remember the police in North Carolina gave protesters permission to carry fire arms because they knew from other protests there was little to fear. The important thing is no one got shot.”

    In context this reads as approval. If it is in fact a critique of North Carolina police procedure, I stand corrected.

  633. “Simon…
    If you want to call the management of a major auto company stupid join the crowd…….as far as my health care plan….”It is what it is””

    If your health care plan does not cover preventative doctor visits it is stupid.
    If your manager is responsible for what your health care plan provides, he is stupid as well.
    Prevention saves everyone future costs. This is not complicated.

  634. LMFAO…..

    “If you don’t like gay marriage, blame straight people. They’re the ones who keep having gay babies.”

  635. alaskipi….
    I agree with you about the kids fighting fires and working in the quarry……Hell…that’s me…….I’m just pissed at the people that think that something is OWED to them(without working for it)……Hell I started working when I was 6…….and I imagine that when the people in Alaska go fishing they take their kids and have them help clean the catch afterwards…..some people would complain about child labor laws…….well fu#k’em…….I don’t see a problem with people getting food stamps,or welfare doing community service if able……and I kind of agree with Newt….If your getting free lunch and supper at the school maybe you should mop the floors there or clean the bathrooms….

  636. Ghost rider,

    “Note to James and Simon: The word is “superciliousness”. Look it up.”

    Your point, assuming there is one, is what?

  637. alaskapi, “…come back home to the refinery. Hiring man said if it was up to me,
    Went down to see the VA man. He said ‘son, don’t you understand’…I’m ten years down the road. Ain’t got nowhere to run, ain’t got nowhere to go…end up like a dog, this could be too much. And you spend half your life just a covering up…” Bruce Springsteen.

    That was I with no one but my wife and my father to give me aid and comfort.The song described some of the best part of my generation. Most of us survived and the experience toughened us, but I agree with you since I have been there.

    It took days for me to pursuade our son to vote because as you say, he knew city votes would swallow his.

    OWS won’t fix it. So what will? I agree with you, it is a terrible problem. Some have called this the lost generation. If you have any ideas, I’d like to try them around here. All we are doing right now is maintaining our church food bank.

  638. While I am sure, from just the right angle, OWS has had some success. But I feel very safe in staying, overall, it gets a failing grade.

  639. JJ- c,mon it’s the season :-)

    James- OWS hasn’t failed in the sense that it has started to give words and ideas to a lot of the 20 something-30 something young people I cross paths with who are pretty disgusted with having followed all the “rules”and aren’t getting anywhere for all their hard work.
    And let me tell you the young man who worked cutting paving stones in a quarry and fighting wildfires in the summer to be able to go to college is damn ticked
    As is the young man who started in the coal mines right out of high school because it was all there was unless you gave up everything and everyone you know and left.He’s the one who says they’ll never be able to change that because they can’t outvote metropolitan areas and can’t get metro folks to pay any attention… that good ole tyranny of the metropolitan majority thingy.
    We can’t ease that unless we truly pay attention and we’re not.
    And just like us, they can simply decide to say F-you, pffft, and all that and change the whole ballgame themselves.

  640. Note to Ghost rider: I don’t have to look it up. “Ingen bart-bondertamp kan stoppe denne fyren.”

  641. Juneau Joe, we have already proven the Bush tax cuts helped the employment rate and added revenue to the government. Unfortunately, Republicans and later Democrats spent money faster than it came in. The crash was associated with bad housing loans.

    The last paragraph reads like something from an alternate universe. Are you a fan of Fringe?

  642. Alaslapi, your and my opinions don’t matter, because in the real world, OWS has failed to live up to its expectations. The majority of Americans didn’t buy the product as advertised. “Why” only matters if it is used to adjust course and adapt. Quick adaptation was the Samis’ strength. OWS needs to learn the same lesson.

    I agree we have generational tension. When I was young, it was the generation gap, but so what? Knowledge of conflicting generational attitudes without change is meaningless. Until OWS learns to capitalize on generational tension in a way that will not be devisive, OWS will do no better next spring. The business cycle may trending up. If so, OWS will have a harder time of it next spring.

    How would you ease the tensions between generations?

  643. Betty Bowers: The worlds greatest Christian.

    How to be a good Christian and of course, Republican.

  644. “Alaskapi….
    don’t use Wikipedia……”
    ——————-
    Pfffttttt!
    wikipedia is not a primary source nor should it be viewed as a definitive source for many things
    however
    wikipedia is a place one can start, it’s full of external links to track ideas and all, it is accessible to all
    and given that there are problems with so called primary sources with certain things and “legit” sources for history in particular which I could blather on about forever I would say wikipedia has a place if viewed with a critical aye
    AND
    I don’t give a damn what my profs might have to say- they are all dead and I don’t believe in ghosts.
    James- I disagree on 76,542,335 points with you about OWS
    and most of them are related to what I said about our views v another generation(s) views- the tension between generations has multiple sources and we’re not paying enough attention to those who have grown up in the world we have crafted.

  645. http://immasmartypants.blogspot.com/2011/12/call-for-some-rationality-in-november.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2FlpjFg+%28Smartypants%29

    Just about this time last year, Republicans demonstrated that they were prepared to block extension of the tax cuts for the middle class unless the tax cuts for the wealthy were also included. Going back a little down memory lane, we’d note that those tax cuts had been passed under the Bush presidency prior to the economic meltdown we all experienced in 2008/09. So in other words, they did nothing to prevent that from happening. AND, there was never any attempt to pay for them.

    …we are going to have some choices to make next November. When it comes to voting for a President and members of Congress, those choices are likely to come down to folks with either a (D) or an (R) after their names. While we may not be in love with the person who has a (D) after their name, these are the kinds of things we should think about: Do we personally want to contribute to the Republican efforts to kill the economy in order to protect the 1% and score political points against an opponent? Or do we want to support the folks who are attempting to move the ball down the line for all of us an inch at a time?

  646. I was sent this blog by a friend with a rather remarkable sense of humor. I loved the blog and the comments are heartwarming for their kindness and consideration… mostly.

    I find the comments most telling. They are almost as entertaining as the blog itself.

    Note to James and Simon: The word is “superciliousness”. Look it up.

    Thank you Hellen for a marvelous post and a Merry “Whatever You’d Like To Call It” to you, and to all.

  647. Simon…
    If you want to call the management of a major auto company stupid join the crowd…….as far as my health care plan….”It is what it is”

  648. So I am interested in what you feel is wrong, or right with this little blurb on Walmart.

  649. Yes, uawtradesman, Harry Reid is a liar. He told us “the war is lost.”

  650. Eric, you know this is as predictable as the rising sun. However, I am in a good mood because realty supports my version of OWS. I love writing “I told you so” to people like you, though you weren’t in the discussion. It was generally a fine day today.

    I will leave you with this, since Juneau Joe seems to think it is all right.

    TEA BAGGER. I mean it sincerely.

    I agree, Simon, what you described is stupid.

  651. Is Harry Reid a liar????? 12/7/11
    isn’t congress both the house and senate?????

    The Senate and President Obama will not go on their Christmas vacations until Congress extends the expiring payroll tax cut, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid vowed Wednesday, outlining an attempt to shame the GOP into backing a middle-class tax break.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/07/payroll-tax-cut-harry-reid-barack-obama-senate_n_1134182.html

  652. Alaskapi, as you know perception is reality. All that matters is how the public regards a movement like OWS. Polls, but more importantly the general reaction of Americans shows the movement has failed to achieve what it claimed to do.

    I agree, one question is “do they really speak for the 99%?” Another is how many people believe themselves to be part of the 99%, and how do they feel about it?” On this, I believe OWS has miscalculated, and a Gallup poll supports me.

    You have a point about the consensus-based organization’s being off- putting, but I think other factors mentioned before are more important. The whole package is wrong. Like a song, they need a hook that appeals to a wide audience. History is instructive.

    Ghandi learned about protest movements when he was in South Africa, and he later used extortive pacifism successfully in India. His method resembled the black sherrif’s holding himself hostage in “Blazing Saddles.” Martin Luther King used Ghandi’s methods and turned the pubic perception of blacks into sympathetic martyrs. The Sami tried political action and eventually gained success by convincing other Scandinavians they were basically alike and all would benefit from reforms. These successful peaceful revolutions had the hook OWS lacks.

    The Sami tried for generations and were adaptable. When something didn’t work, they tried something else. The time has come for OWS to try something else.

    I have also shown that other groups want to control OWS and mold it in their image. You say you can support positions of certain factions of OWS. That’s fine. I could too, because their goals are so vague. I suspect that some factions of OWS will be absorbed into the group as others take control

    I don’t support all of the Tea Party views either, but their protest methods were successful.

  653. OK. My head hurts from all those way tooooo long posts. For me, it comes down to this: when I saw the new health care package it looked just about a twin to the Kaiser Permanente I once had, which was OK compared to some of the other dreck I encountered. The KP plan and the one Romney put in place in Massachusetts are kissin’ cousins. Here’s what burnt my sox: I lost the KP plan when I switched jobs. I really, really wish we could carry a good plan with us as we toddle through life. As for me not being in business, wrong! I am incorporated in my state and work my fingers to a nub. I fill out all sorts of state and federal forms but somehow I just can’t get my knickers in a twist over it. I’ve seen what other countries do and like my immigrant father, I prefer this country, dimples, warts and all.

  654. John Boehner kills the Payroll Tax because it was too popular and would have passed.

    This is the real story behind the story!!! Rachel Maddow explains.

    http://crooksandliars.com/kenneth-quinnell/john-boehner-kills-payroll-tax-ex

  655. “You are blaming a handful of random crimes on a nationwide, indeed worldwide, movement.”
    230 handfuls of reported crimes. They predict somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 times that that went unreported or where people were discouraged from reporting. How many did your count have on the Tea Party?

    “Meanwhile, Tea Party participants openly carry guns to public events,”
    I happen to believe in guns and carry one myself. I have no problems with this. IF they broke a law they should be punished. How many people got shot? That number would be zero. So your problem with this is…what?

    “you applaud North Carolina cops for assuming one event will be as “peaceful” as the next”

    Could you quite me where I did that? Thanks in advance.

    End of the Day, we are far better off with anyone but Obama, and I do mean anyone. 3 years in and he has accomplished very little. The man does not seem to like politics. Clinton at least got in there, rolled up his sleeves and found a way to work with the opposition. Where is Obama during this latest crisis? Hawaii on a $4,000,000 10 or 11 day vacation. Talk about out of touch. Even Chris Matthews has turned on him. Today while driving I heard no less than 4 Liberal talk show hosts say very negative things about Obama. Obama said himself, if I cannot turn this around in 3 years, fire me. No problem, you are fired.

    So, Simon, your list, if any, Tea Party crimes. I would hate to think I was right to be concerned and feel vindicated about my claims that the OWS people were far far more ineffective and violent than the TP’ers ever were. Just sayin.

    Eric, don’t sweat it man. I would not feel very comfortable in the presence of your kind of people anyway. You know the kind, intolerant, bigoted, the ones that look down at the end of their nose at you. Fighting for the cause for the little people from their subdivision-gated-community-home. The kind of person that once knew someone who had a friend that volunteered at a soup kitchen and now really “feels” the plight of the poor person, but has never suffered a hardship in their life. You know the kind of “genuine” person I’m talking about, don’t you Eric? Because Merry Christmas to all really means, for everyone that is like you, right Eric? Glad we could clear that up.

  656. what about all the story JJ

    Today, a spokesman for Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) said that Senate Democrats would not interrupt their vacation to return to Washington and work with Republicans to ensure American families and small businesses are not hit with a job-crushing tax hike in 12 days. But Republicans are not the only ones saying the full-year payroll tax cut extension must be done before Congress goes on vacation – President Obama has made that clear many times:

    http://www.speaker.gov/Blog/?postid=273165

  657. And After That, He’ll Sweep the Capitol and Make a Couple of Judicial Rulings
    December 20, 2011

    Look, I know Barack Obama is Da Man.

    But, this is kinda ridiculous. No, not kinda. Very. This is very ridiculous.

    Here’s the story, the whole story –

    (CNN) – House Speaker John Boehner asked President Barack Obama in a letter Tuesday to order the Democratic-led Senate to appoint negotiators to work out a compromise with the Republican-led House on a payroll tax-cut extension.

    Boehner, excuse me, but isn’t that YOUR job? I mean, isn’t working out a compromise part of the majority leader’s job description?

    Question, John: if Barack Obama can order the Senate to do anything, can he order you to cry me a river? I think so. I think that’s the freekin’ rules.

    What a pimp. If Boehner wants Obama to do the congress’ job, shouldn’t Boehner resign first?

    Somebody get President Obama a robe because I think he needs to do the Supreme Court’s job, too.

    http://juanitajean.com/

  658. I too have BCBS and my doctor visits are completely paid for. So you understand my confusion. An insurance policy written by a company with the slightest foresight would see doctor visits as an investment in not having to pay more exorbitant bills for catastrophic care in the future. Your policy, if it doesn’t pay for your doctor visits is penny wise and pound foolish, nay, stupid.

  659. Mrs. Philpot,

    A colleague, Isaac told a group of us about your blog at lunch yesterday. Last night I read back through some of your previous posts. You are an astute lady with a charming sense of humor. My wife and I look forward to reading more of them. You have attracted quite a following of admiring fans. Scanning through the comments I note two exceptions who call themselves “Anonymous” and “James”.

    My wife and I would be pleased if you were able to join us for our annual New Year’s Eve party. You would be an enjoyable addition to the occasion. Your pair of dissenters most definitely would not be invited. None of our guests have a taste for a couple of turds in the punchbowl.

    Seasons Greetings!

  660. a very poor policy?????…..according to the papers I have a Cadillac health care plan…..also known as Blue Cross Traditional……note the name….UAW…..some thing might have changed with retirement???????I realize living in a rural area allows them to charge more….but that much more!!!!!!!…..My BCBS statement shows that they are still paying the same amount as before for labs(I get billed for the rest)……but for the last 35 years the office visits get billed to BC where the bills are set to reasonable and customary and then they pay their percentage(which is 0%) and I pay the rest………..that’s why I’m pissed at people that demand “free healthcare” …….there ain’t nuttin free…..

  661. God this blog has become an unpleasant place to be.

  662. “are you also saying that the 1993 bill (which was not passed) was not influenced by Hillary…. I know that I’m using Wikipedia again but……”Once in office, President Clinton quickly set up the Task Force on National Health Care Reform, headed by First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton, to come up with a comprehensive plan to provide universal health care for all Americans, which was to be a cornerstone of the administration’s first-term agenda. Clinton delivered a major health care speech to a joint session of Congress on September 22, 1993.”…..the republican bill was 2 months later…….”

    I originally stated I know this bill wasn’t passed.
    Ms. Clinton originated the attempt to reform healthcare.

    In fact, says Len Nichols of the New America Foundation, the individual mandate was originally a Republican idea. “It was invented by Mark Pauly to give to George Bush Sr. back in the day, as a competition to the employer mandate focus of the Democrats at the time.”

    The ‘Free-Rider Effect’

    Pauly, a conservative health economist at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School, says it wasn’t just his idea. Back in the late 1980s — when Democrats were pushing not just a requirement for employers to provide insurance, but also the possibility of a government-sponsored single-payer system — “a group of economists and health policy people, market-oriented, sat down and said, ‘Let’s see if we can come up with a health reform proposal that would preserve a role for markets but would also achieve universal coverage.’ ”

    The idea of the individual mandate was about the only logical way to get there, Pauly says. That’s because even with the most generous subsidies or enticements, “there would always be some Evel Knievels of health insurance, who would decline coverage even if the subsidies were very generous, and even if they could afford it, quote unquote, so if you really wanted to close the gap, that’s the step you’d have to take.”

    One reason the individual mandate appealed to conservatives is because it called for individual responsibility to address what economists call the “free-rider effect.” That’s the fact that if a person is in an accident or comes down with a dread disease, that person is going to get medical care, and someone is going to pay for it.

    “We called this responsible national health insurance,” says Pauly. “There was a kind of an ethical and moral support for the notion that people shouldn’t be allowed to free-ride on the charity of fellow citizens.”

    Republican, Democratic Bills Strikingly Similar

    So while President Clinton was pushing for employers to cover their workers in his 1993 bill, John Chafee of Rhode Island, along with 20 other GOP senators and Rep. Bill Thomas of California, introduced legislation that instead featured an individual mandate. Four of those Republican co-sponsors — Hatch, Charles Grassley of Iowa, Robert Bennett of Utah and Christopher Bond of Missouri — remain in the Senate today.

    The GOP’s 1993 measure included some features Republicans still want Democrats to consider, including damage award caps for medical malpractice lawsuits.

    But the summary of the Republican bill from the Clinton era and the Democratic bills that passed the House and Senate over the past few months are startlingly alike.

    Beyond the requirement that everyone have insurance, both call for purchasing pools and standardized insurance plans. Both call for a ban on insurers denying coverage or raising premiums because a person has been sick in the past. Both even call for increased federal research into the effectiveness of medical treatments — something else that used to have strong bipartisan support, but that Republicans have been backing away from recently.
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123670612

    “I agree that something had to be done about healthcare…..I don’t see where anything has been done to lower the cost though…..Maybe catastrophic illnesses could have been separated from basic healthcare and funded separately…..all I’m sure of is that in the last 3 years my office visits(which I pay 100% of)have gone up(doubled) and labs(which where mostly covered under reasonable and customary) are now almost $200…..I know….Sucks to be me….
    Still not very thrilled with ‘We have to pass this bill to find out what’s in it'”

    Are you insured? If so, a policy that requires you to pay 100% of an office visit is a very poor policy.
    If you are insured and your premiums have risen no one should be surprised to see corporations who believe their profits are in jeopardy raise the costs of doing business with them. This is why profit should be taken out of healthcare altogether.

  663. pretty good JJ…
    how’s this…

  664. Simon…..
    “You do know Willard Mitt Romney proposed and passed practically the same legislation while governor of Massachusetts, don’t you?”…..Are you saying that the bill Romney signed minus all the addons from the dems is the exact same thing as obamacare……

    are you also saying that the 1993 bill (which was not passed) was not influenced by Hillary…. I know that I’m using Wikipedia again but……”Once in office, President Clinton quickly set up the Task Force on National Health Care Reform, headed by First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton, to come up with a comprehensive plan to provide universal health care for all Americans, which was to be a cornerstone of the administration’s first-term agenda. Clinton delivered a major health care speech to a joint session of Congress on September 22, 1993.”…..the republican bill was 2 months later…….

    I agree that something had to be done about healthcare…..I don’t see where anything has been done to lower the cost though…..Maybe catastrophic illnesses could have been separated from basic healthcare and funded separately…..all I’m sure of is that in the last 3 years my office visits(which I pay 100% of)have gone up(doubled) and labs(which where mostly covered under reasonable and customary) are now almost $200…..I know….Sucks to be me….
    Still not very thrilled with “We have to pass this bill to find out what’s in it”

  665. A Teabagger Christmas tale: George Washington gave Baby Jesus guns to fend off terrorists.

    http://rackjite.com/archives/8802-Tea-Party-Christmas,-Manger-full-of-Gold-and-Guns.html

  666. “Alaskapi….
    don’t use Wikipedia……
    “Wikipedia is a notoriously unreliable source, and if this were a college essay your teacher would no doubt disallow Wikipedia as a source and possibly fail the paper.””

    Indeed.

  667. Alaskapi….
    don’t use Wikipedia……
    “Wikipedia is a notoriously unreliable source, and if this were a college essay your teacher would no doubt disallow Wikipedia as a source and possibly fail the paper.”

  668. “As for my choices in news sources. Fox, Abc, Cnn, they report the news. Talk radio discusses the news from a variety of view points. I gain far more understanding of events, and can recall much more from these events when it is in the format of a discussion. As I am very well versed in my own conservative point of view, I spend more time on Liberal stations because doing so is the only way I will ever, I hope, learn to understand where the Liberal mind comes from.”

    Then you put most of your time into biased sources of information.

  669. “the OWS keeps talking about being the 99%……….well I’m one of the 99% and probably 99% of the Tea party are 99%ers…..does that mean we’re on the same side????????”

    You should be. At least if you wish to stem the influence big money has on how our government operates and its priorities. But as long as you see dirty hippies yelling at good God-fearing policemen armed with only armor, clubs and pepper spray to protect themselves from the smelly hordes (who has won those battles in the parks? The protesters or the police?), you will never see the simpatico you (hopefully) share.

  670. And finally, here is the article I cited:

    http://m.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/nov/26/romneys-original-health-reform-goals-differed-fina/

    I hope the rest of this day goes more smoothly than these posts!

  671. Ah, I stand corrected! Html is in effect here. Hooray!

  672. “simon….romneycare….

    On April 12, 2006 Governor Mitt Romney signed the health legislation.[citation needed] Romney vetoed 8 sections of the health care legislation, including the controversial employer assessment.[19] Romney also vetoed provisions providing dental benefits to poor residents on the Medicaid program, and providing health coverage to senior and disabled legal immigrants not eligible for federal Medicaid.[20] The legislature promptly overrode six of the eight gubernatorial section vetoes, on May 4, 2006, and by mid-June 2006 had overridden the remaining two.[21]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_health_care_reform

    Wikipedia is a notoriously unreliable source, and if this were a college essay your teacher would no doubt disallow Wikipedia as a source and possibly fail the paper.
    Here is a pro-Romney article which explains that Romney did indeed favor a mandate, although a weaker one than that which was in the bill he signed into law. Let me repeat that, he signed into law (I realize html isn’t in effect here, but I add the tags in lieu of that option). Romney is as responsible for bills he signs as any executive, including Obama.

  673. Bravo Cynthia and Simon! Thank you, thank you, thank you!!

  674. “Not sure why this post was removed but I had requested Simon to post his list of Tea Party crimes, considering his position on the TP’ers and the OWS people. I then commented on that it took me 1 minute to formulate my list, and lamented on what I could of come up with if I had put some effort into it.

    I also said if there were any specific points considering the epic post sizes you were more than welcome to ask me to expand on my point.”

    You are blaming a handful of random crimes on a nationwide, indeed worldwide, movement. Meanwhile, Tea Party participants openly carry guns to public events, and this not only doesn’t concern you, you applaud North Carolina cops for assuming one event will be as “peaceful” as the next, since after all they’re Tea Party patriots, not hippies in tents on public property.

    I don’t care whether or not you expand your points. I was responding to those you made.

  675. “Simon…I stand corrected….the Republicans wrote one paragraph out of 2700 pages…

    Who needs a private sector when we have a Clinton make our health-care choices?
    The new Hillary health-care plan is very different from the old 1993-1994 Hillary plan.”

    Hillary is Secretary of State, and had nothing to do with the ACA. The primary bone of contention with the Right, other than the fact a Black president was elected to the White House and has succeeded in doing what no president before him could, was with the “mandate”. The “mandate” was in both the 1990s Republican bill to which you were pointed and the “Romneycare” program in Massachusetts.

  676. To me our problem is simple, but enormous in scope. Corruption and conflict of interest. This transcends politics because it is dealing with the human element. Power corrupts. Our founding fathers knew this and wisely set up checks and balances to prevent this from happening. But politicians are a crafty lot and have found ways to circumvent our founding fathers intent. Congress is now a place where people go to make connections and become wealthy. We cannot count on our politicians to do the right thing on their own, because they are human. When once has the power to vote in laws and rules that can apply to everyone but yourself, or apply only to yourself and no one else, it is a recipe for disaster. When outside forces are allowed to influence leaders with any kind of compensation we then are forced to ask ourselves who are real leaders are. Is Obama our leader, or is he the puppet with someone else pulling the strings? Is our congress doing what is in our best interest, or their portfolio’s best interest?

    I think it has become obvious there are forces in play behind the scenes that are at the helm of this nation. The battle needs to be not with the results, which in my opinion is where OWS people are waging war, but rather at the root cause. We need to have a constitutional convention.

    Proposed 28th Amendment.
    “Congress shall make no law that applies to the citizens of the United States that does not apply equally to the Senators and Representatives; and, Congress shall make no law that applies to the Senators and Representatives that does not apply equally to the citizens of the United States”.

    We also need sweeping reform in terms of how campaign dollars are acquired and how lobbyists are allowed to interact with government. There also needs to be an investigation on insider trading within congress. Large scale manipulation is occurring regularly with congressmen having inside information with regards to legislation in the works and investigations on various companies.

    Bottom line is that the world has changed since this country was founded and a lack of necessary checks and balances have allowed for us to get where we are today. If we don’t resolve these issue, nothing else we do will matter.

  677. For those scattered all over both sides of the aisle , including those reluctant to actually choose a place to sit-
    What portion of our problems flow from a structure viewed like this?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_triangle_(US_politics)

  678. James- one of the things which is getting missed in all this dismissing of OWS , whether it be the argument about the 99% and whether it really speaks to the 99%, has a real platform to outside eyes, is a band of thieves and murderers, blah, blah, blah, is that it is largely comprised of younger people who have not really spoken up about how they view our country before/yet.
    The use of consensus based organizational structure is foreign to most of us but is in itself a slap at the worldview you and I have accepted as regards preferred method of attaining goals.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus

    It is actually a very old organizational structure , with its own goods and bads, and I think it says something about an important disconnect between a lot of younger Americans and their view of how well our view of democracy works for them and our view of how it works.
    The Tea Parties have had some sympathy from me as regards intent but none as regards proposed solutions. At this point I am in a similar place with OWS or certain factions in OWS.

  679. Mageen- I always have to be reminded to look at “Outside”-the lower 48- with a slightly different eye than I look at things here.For all our vast distances and small population here it always likely that one knows someone who is involved or can direct one to an organization or information which answers one’s questions. I forget its maybe not so easy elsewhere to make connections.
    Look at this one and see if there’s a link to someone who can help direct you.

    http://maketheconnection.net/events/jobs-employment

    If your state maintains an online registry and database of corporations you can also search the non-profit section :-)
    It is something I do regularly here in relation to fish advocacy issues- to find out who the officers and all of a NPO are when trying to track “special interest” issues.
    Might give you some names to check out :-)
    Our returned vets – so many are reservists and National Guard- maybe your state or local NG chapter can help…?

  680. I just heard a Gallup poll shows another reason why OWS has not gained the traction they expected.

    58% of the people surveyed consider themselves to be the haves, even if they are unemployed. Therefore, by implication, many people consider themselves to be part of the attacked class.

    Tactics.

  681. I found this on the Blaze which is legitmate since I earlier cited Daily Kos.

    Steve Lerner, an organizer said on tape, “we need to figure out in a much more concrete way, how we are really trying to disrupt and create uncertainty for capital, for how corporations operate.” There are things OWS can do now to “destabilize the folks that are in power right now and start to rebuild a movement.” Ten percent of homes are essentially insolvent because they are worth less than money owed. “If you could double that number, you could put banks at the edge of insolvency again.”

    How do ordinary members of OWS protect themselves from people like that?

    No one has yet shown me why OWS wouldn’t be more successful with different tactics.

    Mariah,

    “Jeg har fumlet rundt i morket men jeg har funnef veien ut og geg skal aldri tilbake dit igjen.”

    I have work away from the house this morning.

  682. Blessed are Helen and Margaret for they possess the gift of speaking the truth!

    To everyone I wish: Happy Chanukkah! Merry Christmas! Solstice Greetings! “Everyone” includes all the argumentative trolls around here who really and truly need to get a grip and get over themselves. And please, to those whom it may concern, stop trying to insinuate that Helen is an anti-semite. You know who you are, and she’s not. I mean it, really.

  683. This very liberal Mormon Iowan loves this post. Merry Christmas, and please keep writing.

  684. Pham Binh wrote in the LInks International Journal of Socialist Renewal “Occupy is a once in a lifetime opportunity to re-merge the socialist and working -class movements and create a viable broad based party of radicals, two prospects that have not been in the cards since the late 1960’s and early 1970’s.”

    The most basic and fundamental task facing socialists is to merge with Occupy and lead it from within. The goal is to create a socialist economic system.

    The Foundry quotes the Washington Post and writes that labor unions are co-optiong OWS. ” … collaboration with some of the nations’ largest labor unions undercuts protesters …claims that their grievance is special interests undue influence on the political process. Indeed, SEIU is the fifth largest political; contributor of any third party group since 1989, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, having doled out more than $37 million to political candidates, parties and organizations. Five of the top 10 groups in terms of political contributions are unions.”

    If that is true, some of the innocent OWS people will have a surprise.

  685. I see Cynthia has a fellow rag-mate in the wings. Welcome Karen, so nice of you to add a positive contribution to the blog. Let me know if I can get you some pie, a pamprin perhaps?

  686. simon….romneycare….

    On April 12, 2006 Governor Mitt Romney signed the health legislation.[citation needed] Romney vetoed 8 sections of the health care legislation, including the controversial employer assessment.[19] Romney also vetoed provisions providing dental benefits to poor residents on the Medicaid program, and providing health coverage to senior and disabled legal immigrants not eligible for federal Medicaid.[20] The legislature promptly overrode six of the eight gubernatorial section vetoes, on May 4, 2006, and by mid-June 2006 had overridden the remaining two.[21]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_health_care_reform

  687. Karen, you clueless wonder.”Finally met his match?” Pay attention little one. We are evenly matched, and I bet you wish you could be that good. You knew the sarcasm was coming. Have I satisfied your maschoistic tendencies now? Was it good for you? Let me know.

    I like arguing with Cynthia. She is smart and respectful.

    Poolman, I have seen a live feed of OWS attempt to protest at the doors of Wall Street. I know some Tea Party people are in some of the protests. Commentators have said that Tea Party and OWS people have some general concerns in common.

    They do not look like all of America to me or a lot of other people. They look like inarticulate squatters dragged from their own filth as often Democratic city governments tire of the uproar as they fear the protesters becoming a political liability. That may not be true, but it is how it looks on television. They need to change their tactics. The Pew survey quoted on Daily Kos shows 49% of Americans surveyed believe OWS is using the wrong methods.

    Those people were given lawful orders to disperse. Their occupancy was denying other citizens the use of their parks. They should be as Martin Luther King said. If you break the law, you accept the punishment and don’t complain.

  688. Poolman….just how much broader can you get than 99%……or are you saying that the OWS’ers aren’t the 99% and if so why are they speaking for others????Oh that’s right….They know whats best for the rest us……I’ve got 2 sisters like that…..

  689. Cynthia, I agree OWS has no one apparent leader, but that doesn’t mean people behind the scenes aren’t ready to pull the strings if need be. Even accounting for private donations, they have too much money in my opinion–certainly more than the early Tea Parties and early anti-war protesters did.

    I could be completely wrong about this, and as you write these folks may be different from the anti-war movement, but I have a nagging suspicion as I did during a tornado watch when storm chaser vans drove by our house.

    I agree, a quiet protest between 4-6Am won’t attract enough attention. However sending four thousand people outside a city court house from three to five during the rush hour will. That was where my first Tea Party was held. They attracted a lot of attention and interviews. The others I attended were also at public places and timed for maximum exposure. They advertised themselves with signs and interviews. Small business people in the group knew how to work the media.

    History tells us it has been worse than it is today.

    However, you should worry even more than you are. Consider what will happen if the Euro fails. It will be an appocalypse, even for us. Aside from that, business cycles still work. Even with little change in policy the unemployment rate has crept down a bit, though it is higher than 8.6% Some companies are talking of reshoring–sending jobs back to the US.

    Before we join an agent of change we need to be sure the change will not be worse than our present condition.

    You may be right, but I still think OWS needs to change its tactics. It needs to operate in a way to make the general population identify with the movement. Until that happens, they will have limited success. Eventually, it will have to focus its message. Most people cannot identify with outyer criminals or protesters dragged from parks. They need to look at the movement and decide “they are just like us.”

    As the Beatles sang, “But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao
    You ain’t going to make it with anyone anyhow.”

    My answer is we do not sit back and do nothing. We watch and learn from all sides. We make some noise, and preparations. Once we are sure there is no other choice, we go to the streets and do whatever it takes. i don’t think it will come to that, but I am not being dramatic. I’ve thought about it.

    Juneau Joe, if you use Tea Bagger, someone can call you a “libtard” or “Alaskan snow monkey.” That would be impolite.

  690. Brava! Cynthia. More power to you. After what? 3-4 years, James has finally met his match in Noah/Anonymous when it comes to tedious, boring, tiresome, slow-witted, monotonous, dull, ill-informed, dreary, dense and wearisome “comments” to scroll by as soon as their names come up. But apparently they sit on their computers waiting to be challenged and ready to swoop in immediately with snotty, sarcastic, caustic, sneering, contemptuous, mordant, disdainful and scornful “comments”. When all else fails, their obnoxious personalities can always fall back on the usual sniveling of self-pity.

    I’ve run out of descriptive adjectives. Keep up your good work, Cynthia, as long as you can stand to waste your time and put up with it. Maybe I will come back again in another year and see if anything has changed with them. I won’t bet on it.

  691. Not sure why this post was removed but I had requested Simon to post his list of Tea Party crimes, considering his position on the TP’ers and the OWS people. I then commented on that it took me 1 minute to formulate my list, and lamented on what I could of come up with if I had put some effort into it.

    I also said if there were any specific points considering the epic post sizes you were more than welcome to ask me to expand on my point.

  692. Occupy is a much broader and younger crowd that the tea party interested in more than political goals. There are actually a lot of tea party people included in the protests. We even have a few of our own homegrown militias.

    The change desired will result in social upheaval. It is an honest demand for representation by all people over the institutions and the corporations and the governments that have failed them. Many want a real democracy. Many want a republic based on our constitution. Plenty want to end the Fed, cut or end taxes, demand debt forgiveness or a year of jubilee, end the wars and empire. Basically a revolution.

    The crooks that are allowed to walk free and profit from immoral economic practices and those that enable them are in the cross-hairs of the public anonymous. Capitalism über alles has run its course and true capitalists need to justify their sources of income for there to again be trust in the marketplace. This is something the money changers and their enablers have greatly abused and made themselves ridiculously wealthy thereby.

    As for the Occupy movement, unless you are watching live streams or youtube clips or alternate media sources, you are probably not getting a clear picture of it. Yes there are all types represented including fringe elements and there are agent provocateurs. But it is mainstream America, east to west, north to south, and they are not going away.

    There has been a huge effort to subdue it and hundreds have been arrested. J P Morgan donated 4.6 mil to NYPD. Homeland security has been tasked to handle the movement nationwide and have been co-opting security.

  693. oops….

    http://dashes.com/anil/2011/11/how-the-99-and-the-tea-party-can-occupy-whitehousegov.html

  694. the OWS keeps talking about being the 99%……….well I’m one of the 99% and probably 99% of the Tea party are 99%ers…..does that mean we’re on the same side????????

  695. Simon…..(HR3590)…..No sponsors. Bill re-written by Senate Democrats. No Republican Senator voted for the bill. …..I see the problem now…..rewritten by Dems…..

  696. err that was to anon 7:40

  697. To your Bullshit Anon 7:30 I’ll raise you one quote.
    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” (Edmund Burke)

  698. Simon…I stand corrected….the Republicans wrote one paragraph out of 2700 pages…

    Who needs a private sector when we have a Clinton make our health-care choices?
    The new Hillary health-care plan is very different from the old 1993-1994 Hillary plan.

  699. As for my choices in news sources. Fox, Abc, Cnn, they report the news. Talk radio discusses the news from a variety of view points. I gain far more understanding of events, and can recall much more from these events when it is in the format of a discussion. As I am very well versed in my own conservative point of view, I spend more time on Liberal stations because doing so is the only way I will ever, I hope, learn to understand where the Liberal mind comes from.

  700. I’ll agree that Jules Manson,is an asshat and deserves to be questioned by the police(secret service) and possibly prosecuted…..
    but then Allen Colmes is just as guilty of stupidity as Manson…… “By the way THIS is why I continue to shine a spotlight on Sarah Palin and her racist Teabagger pals.”….
    WTF Colmes….how about Jared Lee Loughner belonging to OWS….”the liberal of liberals”……Left-wing nutcase” ………..
    F#cki^g Richard Cranium……

    http://stevenbirnspeaks.wordpress.com/2011/11/17/bias-media-refuses-to-link-white-house-shooter-with-ows/

    so JJ…..you like poking shit but….

    Death threat made against SC Gov. Nikki Haley

    http://www.examiner.com/libertarian-in-national/death-threat-made-against-sc-gov-nikki-haley-by-occupier

  701. UAWTradesman,

    “Simon….your statement about a ‘Republican designed healthcare program’ is confusing…….you seem to forget the Dem controlled house and senate closed the doors on the Republicans, they forced a vote without waiting the 72 hours to read it, and Nancy Pelosi stating ‘We have to pass this to find out what’s in it…..
    If it was Republican designed why do they want to cancel it…..
    Maybe if I had a great big glass of your koolaid I could understand your reasoning…..”

    You do know Willard Mitt Romney proposed and passed practically the same legislation while governor of Massachusetts, don’t you?

    Further, read this:

    Subtitle F: Universal Coverage – Requires each citizen or lawful permanent resident to be covered under a qualified health plan or equivalent health care program by January 1, 2005. Provides an exception for any individual who is opposed for religious reasons to health plan coverage, including those who rely on healing using spiritual means through prayer alone.

Repubs – 1993 HCR Bill


    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s103-1770

    Yes, I know this bill was never passed, that is not the point. “Obamacare” was a Republican idea.

  702. Coast to Coast*

  703. Yes the Air America was replaced by Cost to Cost AM. They are so similar I had to play through my playlist to get the name.

  704. I’ve spent time trying to read some of the other comments because it is unfair to readers to jump in and say the same thing that’s already been said multiple times. It seems Ann Fontaine, Helen Philpot, msnomir, anonymous, taube and incandescentflower made a point I most strongly agree with. The anti-semetic statement in the blog is very upsetting to me. I expect this blog to be fair and open-minded at all times and this unedited statement needs further explanation. I am hoping it was not meant the way I understood it.

  705. “I do not watch Fox news. Few of my Conservative friends watch Fox news. This is something your Liberal media, ya the ones you claim do not exist, has dreamed up and spread. Like any good propaganda, it has been blown out of proportion and has become the Liberal one liner that attemptes to immediately discredit anyone who is not of Liberal persuasion. I would ask you to consider the “source” at the end of the day does not matter. Is it the truth, is it not the truth, that matters. To me who is telling the news story is of little importance? To me substance trumps source. I am smart enough to tell when someone is manipulating a story for a spin, And when I am not I always get my news from multiple sources.

    I do listen to talk radio thanks for asking. I listen to Rush, Glen Beck, Hannity, and Savage maybe 5 hours total a week and I read George Wills. I also listen to Ed Schultz, Alan Colmes and Dennis Miller probably 8-10 hours a week and on occasion Air America.”

    Interesting, since Air America no longer exists. But 5 lunatic conservatives to two liberals, one of which is calm and deliberate in his presentation, the other similar in hyperbole to the five, although in the opposite direction. I suggest adding another calm voice to the mix, Rachel Maddow, perhaps.

    I acknowledged from the outset I didn’t know your news habits, I was simply basing the way you see the world ordered (Obama is a Socialist, the Tea Party is pure as snow, while OWS are all dangerous criminals, etc) on the possibility that you are a regular viewer of Fox News. That you in fact get your information from Rush, Glen Beck, Hannity, Savage and Miller makes a distinction without a difference. These people are not news sources. They are propagandists.

    “On health care. He is a politician with a desire to be reelected. His socialist desires are but one facet of his agenda. He passed what he could and I stand by that assessment.”

    Stand by it all you like, the concept that Obama is a Socialist is absurd. The facts, not vague claims, bear that out.

    “The war on Iraq was justified without the WMD’s This is a lengthy topic and should you care to I would be happy to expand on it. Suffice to say, violating terms of surrender, violating multiple U.N. Sanctions, crimes against humanity, shooting at our aircraft to name a few warranted something being done.”

    That something in this case being a ten year and 1 trillion dollar war with tens, if not hundreds of thousands dead. Not much of a solution, particularly since crimes of the sort listed can be placed in many regimes, with no comparable action from us.

    “Clinton and Newt are 2 very different issues. Clinton was President, Newt was not, and yes there is a distinction. Sexual encounters aside, Bill lied and was caught. This is why he deserved to be impeached. Also, we do not excuse one crime because what someone else did or did not do. Each must stand on its own merits and be judged accordingly.”

    He lied and was caught, so he deserves to be impeached? Are you serious? If so, let us start with Bush II and go back. How many impeachments would you have been willing to endure? How many will you be willing to endure in the future?
    Aside from that, my point was if Clinton deserved impeachment, what gives Gingrich the right to be a candidate? He is guilty of many of the same offenses, lying being one of the most notable (and if he is not lying and believes what he says, that is another disqualifying example).

    “On abortion, again another large discussion we can expand on if you like. In short, I believe an unborn child has rights that need to be defended. The point of the topic however is you finding fault with Republicans because they defend their beliefs. They have the right to believe and the right to seek putting those beliefs into law when they are able too. Everything else we do operates this way, why should this topic be any different? I do not find fault with Liberals wanting to have it remain legal, a position I support.”

    I don’t recall stating Republicans couldn’t pursue this or any other agenda. That doesn’t not mean they should not catch hell for that pursuit. Sarah Palin seemed to believe that criticizing and questioning her positions was denying her free speech, a point of view echoed in what you have said in this paragraph.

    “On media. The fact they are owned by corporations means nothing. I am rather disappointed you thought this might prove something. Disney is a hard core Liberal corporation. Ever hear of a man named Warren Buffet’s. Would you care to claim this person is a raging Conservative?”

    The purpose of a corporation is to make money for its stockholders. Its concerns are first with money and far down the line, if there at all, is anything else, including truth and justice. The more media owned by a corporation, the more control it has of the message being delivered.
    To your examples, I was not aware that Disney had a news outlet. I understand Mr. Buffett has just entered the media business, so it remains to be seen what difference that will make.

    “On OWS. If you really want to claim this is not a Liberal driven cause, then I am not sure what we have to discuss as we live in two completely different realities.”

    Please pick up that straw after you have finished battering away at it.
    I never said OWS was not liberal. I said its concerns were with money, not representative government, controlling our government. Both sides should be concerned about that, and acting to eliminate the problem through public financing of election campaigns.
    Oh, but you are still trying to say that conservatives are engaged in class warfare and you want to play games with the terminology. Fine, but I was thinking I should be expecting more.

    “On jobs. Ok so Dems have skin in the game, but like every other Liberal out there you cannot manage to find any fault in anything they do. We all agree they are in control, yet somehow they manage to not have any accountability in why we are where we are today. Both sides have blame, and I have said so multiple times. Not one, not ever, not once, has a Liberal on this blog assigned any blame to Democrats. This is telling.”

    Democrats do many things which I do not support. They are usually referred to as “Blue Dogs”, but they carry the card.
    It depends on what kind of blame you are assigning. If by “blame” you mean being thus far unable to completely restart after thirty years of damage, then I will confess to being more patient than you.
    If by blame you mean failing to take action which could ameliorate the situation, in fact siding against those policies out of political cowardice, then I am with you. A pox on those.

    “Umm. Duh? Is there anyone, anywhere, that desires the opposite?”

    The Republican party has stated its goal is ending the Obama presidency, leading one to believe that priority is a bad one. The only other priority visible to me is installing the same tired, failed policies which got us here.

    “Also I am still not seeing anything you are for, tangible, actionable, anyway.”

    You don’t? Well, you responded to what I am for below.

    “Ok before I respond I just want to make sure I understand this statement. You are claiming the Massive government spending and the increased taxes that go with it ends a recession/depression, and lower taxes makes a recession/depression last longer. Is this your claim?”

    That happened in the Great Depression. Roosevelt, after introducing and being successful with the New Deal, bent to the will of the Republicans and reduced government spending in 1937, resulting a major recession, hardly helpful at the time. World War II brought back government spending in a massive way, and the Depression ended.

    “Simon, in the real world, the Tea Party demonstrations were more peaceful and less than the OWS occupations. I attended several demonstrations, though I am not a Tea Party member, and I saw no weapons. I do remember the police in North Carolina gave protesters permission to carry fire arms because they knew from other protests there was little to fear. The important thing is no one got shot.”

    If you did not see the Tea Party affairs with guns strapped to the sides of some of its participants then your media sources are found wanting.
    When it comes to guns in the open, I would suggest that the North Carolina police should take each event on its own merits and not make assumptions.
    Bad things happen in large groups. The problem you have is in not seeing, or believing, what you do not want to see or believe, and seeing only that which suits your point of view. But that is human nature.

    “The shootings had absolutely nothing to do with the Tea Party or OWS. The shooter had an incoherent philosophy with some leftist tendencies. He apparently didn’t watch talk shows. Its true the liberal media lept on the shooting with a long hoped for “gotcha!” But their hopes were dashed once again.”

    The shootings were the result of ridiculous gun laws, promoted by a misreading of the Second Amendment, which permits even insane people access to high capacity fire arms. The connection to the Tea Party comes from the atmosphere of violent rhetoric permeating the dialogue. Whether or not the perpetrator was tied or influenced by this atmosphere has nothing to do with the fact that it is “conservative” values which created the circumstances of the shooting. You will note it was a Democratic representative’s, not Jan Brewer’s, gathering which was attacked.

    “I’m sure your sarcasm was not intended to reflect reality. The Tea Partyers I saw were not any thing like that, and some Hispanics were in the crowds too. I watched a long real-life feed of the day OWS marched on Wall Street and the Brooklyn Bridge. They did not look or act like hippies, and several acknowledged the park’s sanitation and lawlessness had gotten out of hand.”

    No doubt those Hispanics were among the regulars’ best friends.
    The only OWS demonstration you saw with your own unfiltered eyes contained no violence and even included some sensible people. Every other demonstrations you saw was on that “liberal” media depicting pepper spray and fighting? One was Woodstock, the other Altamont I suppose.

    “It is also true that some of the OWS people sounded absolutely dumb when interviewed. Tea Party people tended to have a more coherent message and were able to quote facts”

    Here are quotes from the Tea Party preferred candidates:

    http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/teaparty/a/Tea-Party-Quotes.htm

    Here are some Tea Party participants:

    “In stark terms, the Tea Party handled itself better than OWS, and that is a fact no one can deny without self deception. That is a different issue than the validity of their beliefs.”

    It is indeed.

  706. Cynthia and Jo-jo think the OWS people are good. They claim they are better than the Tea Party people. Well in the case of getting results, we know they are full of shit. On points other than results, lets use some quotes from the OWS people and let them judge themselves.

    “On the 17th, we going to burn New York City to the f-cking ground.”

    “Ain’t no more to make that decision so they can see…in a few days you going to see what a molotov cocktail can do to Macy’s.”

    Angele Chaidez, 21, faces one count of count of indecent exposure for allegedly exposing himself and masturbating in front of several people, including children, Friday on the south steps of City Hall, said prosecutors with the L.A. city attorney’s office.

    That samecount of resisting arrest.

    Michael Howard Thomson, 51, was charged with two counts of
    refused to cooperate and violently resisted officers’ efforts to detain him.

    Farid Ahntab, 24, faces one count each of possession of a deadly weapon, brandishing a deadly weapon, assault with a deadly weapon and resisting arrest following three separate incidents at the camp. He allegedly brandished a knife at officers Oct.
    Jarod Smith, 20, is charged with indecency with a child, a third-degree felony, and is being held in the Travis County correctional complex on $15,000 bail, according to jail records.

    On Monday, 12 Dec 11, a young woman by the name of “Lotus” placed her and her 4 month old child lying down on the railroad tracks at the Port of Portland in an attempt to shut down commerce.

    The latest crime was an OWS assault on a hobbyist photographer, as National Review reported. Bruce Fancher went to OWS central in New York City, Zuccotti Park, to shoot photographs and was attacked.

    Fancher escaped unharmed except for a bloody nose. But even more remarkable than the unprovoked attack was the reaction of police, National Review reported. They did nothing, and refused to enter the park because they were afraid.

    “The NYPD officer steadfastly refused to go back into the park, suggesting that to do so would ‘cause a riot,’” National Review reported. An emergency medical tech told Fancher that it was the 14th assault she had attended.

    Across the country, woman are accusing their peace-loving fellow travelers of flagitious sexual attacks.
    Cleveland as well, and in Glasgow, Scotland, one woman was gang raped.

    Even worse, Occupy Baltimore authorities told rape victims not to report the crimes to police but instead to permit an OWS “security committee” to handle the crimes.

    Occupiers in Madison, Wisconsin, lost a protest permit because of public masturbation. In San Diego, they tossed blood and urine on food vendors when the cart operators stopped providing free food. In Oakland, they have repeatedly attacked police and perpetrated acts of vandalism and sexual harassment. Public urination and sex are, as well, another of the OWS activities in Oakland.

    Even the elderly
    So first off we have established Cynthia is either a liar and dishonest. It took me all of 1 minute to find this information she claimed doesn’t exist.

    So all you OWS supporters, tell how noble your cause is and show me your list of Tea Party crimes that compare to this.

  707. Californian Tea Bagger Politician suggests Assassination for President Obama and his family.

    I have the pleasure of talking to lots of people and I must say, they feel they are with the 99%. The average person is feeling like they are in a vice economically.

    http://theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/2011/12/california-politican-calls-for.html

  708. Simon – Thank you, please stay for awhile.

  709. James – OWS has no one leader, no one message, no “sponsors”. Why? You can take out the leader and the movement ends. One message and you exclude all those who have other issues. No sponsors you answer to no one.

    A protest that is held between 4-6am on the outskirts of town annoys no one but it doesn’t get heard; it makes no waves. Is this a movement or a revolution? IMO This is something new for this country at least in my life time. It is not the same as the anti-war movement of the 60-70’s. There is no previous plan to follow. Yes they are going to make mistakes, make people angry, disrupt, some people may get hurt but is that a reason to stop. I don’t believe so. Life has risks and regrets and if you have none you have not lived to the fullest. People are angry, frustrated and some are desperate. They are seeing life change and it is not to their liking. The politicians they think should be working for them seem to be working against them.

    My question – Do we just sit back and do nothing?

    Peace.

  710. IMO JuneauJoe and Simon OD’d on the koolaid…….

    Simon….your statement about a “Republican designed healthcare program” is confusing…….you seem to forget the Dem controlled house and senate closed the doors on the Republicans, they forced a vote without waiting the 72 hours to read it, and Nancy Pelosi stating “We have to pass this to find out what’s in it”…..
    If it was Republican designed why do they want to cancel it…..
    Maybe if I had a great big glass of your koolaid I could understand your reasoning…..

  711. Noah – You certainly don’t let the facts get in the way do you?

    I think you have selective memory when it comes to the behavior of the TP’ers. But many of the TP’ers didn’t have the time; they had to be back in the nursing home in time for Bingo!

    “Sorry to see my invitation to be civil was declined.” You said that AFTER you called me a whore. Why do you think I am going to take it from you…..because you are …..????…..Noah the Magnificant Anonymous?
    I think I was being extremely civil by not calling you a phucking pr*ck.

    PS – “and on occasion Air America” – I believe they went out of business several years ago.

  712. .
    .
    American Occu-Pie
    .
    .
    PEACE ~ Δ

  713. lol Joe, that is news to you? Dude your like many years late on that one.

  714. NEWT: Faithful Republican! Unfaithful husband!!

    http://takemycountryback.com/truth-sunday-3/

  715. Simon, in the real world, the Tea Party demonstrations were more peaceful and less than the OWS occupations. I attended several demonstrations, though I am not a Tea Party member, and I saw no weapons. I do remember the police in North Carolina gave protesters permission to carry fire arms because they knew from other protests there was little to fear. The important thing is no one got shot.

    Several Tea Party protesters suffered violence from their opposition. For example, someone bit off a man’s finger.

    The shootings had absolutely nothing to do with the Tea Party or OWS. The shooter had an incoherent philosophy with some leftist tendencies. He apparently didn’t watch talk shows. Its true the liberal media lept on the shooting with a long hoped for “gotcha!” But their hopes were dashed once again.

    I’m sure your sarcasm was not intended to reflect reality. The Tea Partyers I saw were not any thing like that, and some Hispanics were in the crowds too. I watched a long real-life feed of the day OWS marched on Wall Street and the Brooklyn Bridge. They did not look or act like hippies, and several acknowledged the park’s sanitation and lawlessness had gotten out of hand.

    It is also true that some of the OWS people sounded absolutely dumb when interviewed. Tea Party people tended to have a more coherent message and were able to quote facts.

    In stark terms, the Tea Party handled itself better than OWS, and that is a fact no one can deny without self deception. That is a different issue than the validity of their beliefs.

    I don’t believe the Tea Party or OWS street has all of the answers. We need something between.

    I hope you and Cynthia stick around for awhile.

  716. Lurky, only upset Cynthia prefers to take down this blog rather than agree to disagree. But no worries, she has inspired me to overachieve and I will not let her down.

  717. Simon, first off thanks for the spirited debate, and thanks for remaining civil. I do not like, however, your assumptions so let me clear one in particular up. I do not watch Fox news. Few of my Conservative friends watch Fox news. This is something your Liberal media, ya the ones you claim do not exist, has dreamed up and spread. Like any good propaganda, it has been blown out of proportion and has become the Liberal one liner that attemptes to immediately discredit anyone who is not of Liberal persuasion. I would ask you to consider the “source” at the end of the day does not matter. Is it the truth, is it not the truth, that matters. To me who is telling the news story is of little importance? To me substance trumps source. I am smart enough to tell when someone is manipulating a story for a spin, And when I am not I always get my news from multiple sources.

    I do listen to talk radio thanks for asking. I listen to Rush, Glen Beck, Hannity, and Savage maybe 5 hours total a week and I read George Wills. I also listen to Ed Schultz, Alan Colmes and Dennis Miller probably 8-10 hours a week and on occasion Air America.

    Unfortunately we have covered way to many topics and as you can see by my response, and your response to me, were we to continue we would have pages upon pages of response. So I will try and be concise as possible, thought I have pages of thoughts on what you posted.

    On health care. He is a politician with a desire to be reelected. His socialist desires are but one facet of his agenda. He passed what he could and I stand by that assessment.

    The war on Iraq was justified without the WMD’s This is a lengthy topic and should you care to I would be happy to expand on it. Suffice to say, violating terms of surrender, violating multiple U.N. Sanctions, crimes against humanity, shooting at our aircraft to name a few warranted something being done.

    Clinton and Newt are 2 very different issues. Clinton was President, Newt was not, and yes there is a distinction. Sexual encounters aside, Bill lied and was caught. This is why he deserved to be impeached. Also, we do not excuse one crime because what someone else did or did not do. Each must stand on its own merits and be judged accordingly.

    On abortion, again another large discussion we can expand on if you like. In short, I believe an unborn child has rights that need to be defended. The point of the topic however is you finding fault with Republicans because they defend their beliefs. They have the right to believe and the right to seek putting those beliefs into law when they are able too. Everything else we do operates this way, why should this topic be any different? I do not find fault with Liberals wanting to have it remain legal, a position I support.

    On media. The fact they are owned by corporations means nothing. I am rather disappointed you thought this might prove something. Disney is a hard core Liberal corporation. Ever hear of a man named Warren Buffet’s. Would you care to claim this person is a raging Conservative?

    On OWS. If you really want to claim this is not a Liberal driven cause, then I am not sure what we have to discuss as we live in two completely different realities.

    On jobs. Ok so Dems have skin in the game, but like every other Liberal out there you cannot manage to find any fault in anything they do. We all agree they are in control, yet somehow they manage to not have any accountability in why we are where we are today. Both sides have blame, and I have said so multiple times. Not one, not ever, not once, has a Liberal on this blog assigned any blame to Democrats. This is telling.

    “Speaking for this one, we are against failed policies. We are for successful policies”

    Umm. Duh? Is there anyone, anywhere, that desires the opposite? Also I am still not seeing anything you are for, tangible, actionable, anyway.

    “Massive government spending, regrettably due to war, finally ended the Great Depression. Tax cuts and timidity prolonged it”

    Ok before I respond I just want to make sure I understand this statement. You are claiming the Massive government spending and the increased taxes that go with it ends a recession/depression, and lower taxes makes a recession/depression last longer. Is this your claim?

  718. Also Anonymous, would you mind enlightening me on just where I was so closed minded? If it’s not too much trouble for you of course.

  719. Oh no Cynthia, you’ve upset him, shame on you!

  720. Cynthia, we can argue about whether or not the Tea Party or OWS economic and political philosophies are best for our country on another day, I hope.

    For now, my main focus has been on tactics. a Pew poll cited by Daily Kos supports what I have been writing. While a majority supports some of the concepts associated with OWS, 49% disapprove of OWS’s tactics. The criminals, anarchists and other bad elements hurt the brand, and it is OWS’s responsibility to rid themselves of people who make the movement look bad.

    A poster wrote “…the tactics of OWS are losing support–this poll shows 49% disapprove and only 29% approve.

    It appears to me that in the last month or so especially, the tactics have been all about whether people have the right to have encampments i public parks. Most people, I think while they would support the message, they don’t support the intractable position that a group has the right to turn a public park into their own living space.”

    I earlier mentioned the New York City neighbors of Zuccoti Park who protested to the city government about the nuisance OWS had become. One restaurant closed because of their disruption. The attempt to shut down West Coast docks was as much a turf dispute between two labor unions as it was about sticking it to the man. The movement failed to realize they were hurting the incomes of truck drivers, dock workers and indirectly exporters like farmers.

    Our son in San Jose said the attitudes of a majority of people he talked to had evolved into disgust over the occupied parks.

    I saw a picture of a man defecating on a police car. That was not an urgent call of nature. It was an expression of hostility. All the people in those camps needed was some shovels and a designated out door rest room.

    I am certain OWS was infiltrated by others who used the rank and file for their own purposes. It may be like the anti- war movement which had leaders who used unwitting foot soldiers for goals they might not have supported, had they known. If the mainstream OWS are Menshevics, the better organized and ruthless people are the Bulshevics. I’m not saying the dark hand of communism guides OWS. I’m saying the more determined and organized will take control eventually. I also don’t think the bad actors who rape and steal are the dangerous infiltrators.

    Most of the media supported OWS. Reporters presented favorable stories and didn’t mention the seamy side until it became too obvious to ignore. Our issue of Time Magazine is still sympathetic to OWS, even with the ridiculous tendency to compare our variety to Middle East protesters who risked their lives and safety.

    It happened with the Tea Party, and it is happening now in Egypt–survival of the strongest.

    Black and white doesn’t work for me. I don’t have all of the answers, but I know what works, and as of today OWS doesn’t work. They would better serve themselves by stating two or three simple principles and by behaving like Tea Parties. Show up, speak, clean up, and leave.

    My question is “how do we survive long term as the society we have known all our lives?” What is your question?

  721. If we are going to blame OWS for every bad thing that happened while it was active, we must, to be fair and balanced, point out that the Tea Party rallies included people parading about with guns in plain site, more than once in too close proximity to the President of the United States. Also, let us not forget the rhetoric presented, which culminated in the death of six people and the wounding of many more, including a congressional representative who had the misfortune of being a Democrat.
    Yes, the perpetrator was insane. We apparently do not know the mental state of those perpetrators you associate with OWS, but I am going to assume they are not the standard.

    My take on the Tea Party v. OWS?
    Old, fat white people with tea bags hanging off their cardboard tri-corner hats are the Real Americans®, while the Occupy movement is made up of dirty San Francisco pinko hippies who don’t know what they’re doing and aren’t really good for anything, except banging on bongos while engulfed in pot smoke. Right?

    No. I’m sure we all believe in self-reliance and standing on our own feet, etc, but some of us understand that a dog-eat-dog, survival-of-the-fittest economic system is going to leave people behind, through no fault of their own. A civilized society doesn’t say “Too bad, so sad”, it finds ways to help those people. It’s a shared responsibility. And it doesn’t let the idea that some may game or cheat the system lead to throwing out the whole system.

    The Ayn Rand superman whose Towering Genius® conceives great products needs somebody to actually make them, and as important, somebody who can afford to actually buy and use them. That’s where the working and middle classes come in. If the Supermen have the idea they don’t need those people, they’re wrong.

  722. Cynthia, was nice to see you step up and show us what will work. You are a good little Liberal after all.

    1 Murder is too many.
    1 Rape is too many.
    1 Sexual assault is too many.
    1 Old Lady being pushed down the steps is too many.
    1 Child being put in harms way is too many.
    1 desecrated 9/11 monument is too many.

    How many of these acts did the Tea Party commit? 0 or better known as Zero. Nadda, None. Zilch.

    OWS was infiltrated? I am sure you have overwhelming evidence supporting this ..fact? and were just waiting for someone to ask you to present it. I am sure you wouldn’t go and make it up without anything at all to back it up…would you?

    Sorry to see my invitation to be civil was declined. Just remember you asked for that kind of blog, I will be happy to comply with your choice, your rules.from this point forward, with regards to you. I promise I can do much better. More to follow.

    As for the Tea Party message and your rant. The topic was not what they were doing, it was how they conducted themselves and their ability to get results. They did not need to commit any felonies, and they had quantifiable results that made considerable change on the political landscape. I apologize for asking you to join us at the adult table for advanced conversation. I will try and make it easier for you in the future to follow the conversation and not to make an ass of yourself commenting on something no one actually said.

  723. “On health care. Way to simplistic an explanation. I think Obama took stock of what he had to deal with, though in his case a super majority in congress and still got little done. Obama took a pragmatic approach and got passed what he thought he could get away with.”

    Which makes him a pragmatist and a centrist, not a Socialist.

    “On terrorism. So it is your contention the previous administration had nothing to do with it? They had no policies or plans in the works that Obama continued? So Obama did all of this of his own accord? He headed up the intelligence and the execution of the mission that lead to the kill?”

    My “contention” is that Bush virtually abandoned Afghanistan, where Osama was actually hiding (why send in possible Al Qaeda sympathizers to flush him out instead of pissed off Marines?) and invaded Iraq, a plan hatched long before Bush was even elected, but a plan with which he enthusiastically, for reasons of his own, agreed. He also sold this invasion as a continuation on the “War on Terror” (a term which always has had more in common with a “war on AK-47s”, a means rather than an end) with claims of Saddam’s partnership with his in fact hated enemy, never mind those WMDs which, contrary to Bush administration’s assurances, were very much in doubt vis-à-vis the intelligence community.
    President Obama sought out and killed Osama bin Laden through his order. Believe me, and you know this, had Mr. Bush put aside the usefulness of Osama as a puppet to scare up votes and support and managed to execute the kill order himself, the Bush Cult, in the media and in the streets, would have put the gun in his hand and carried him about on their collective shoulders.

    “Clinton should have been impeached. Now you are welcome to dismiss Newt. I however am far more interested in this country sometime in my lifetime coming out of this recession/depression and change the ways of our government of deficit spending. It is no longer a matter of want to, we HAVE to. Can you say with any honesty Obama will be the guy to do that?”

    Are you serious? Do you pay attention to anything other than Fox, etc? Obama has paid, in my opinion, given the situation we find ourselves, much too much attention to deficit reduction. Deficit reduction is an issue for flush times, not a near depression. Obama has given speech after speech on this issue and has bent over like a limbo dancer to mollify those screeching about the deficit, those who were silent during Reagan/Bushes.
    If Clinton should have been impeached, what right does Gingrich have to the White House?

    “As far as Bush and Regan. On Regan. His was purposeful spending. He had a plan. He spent the Soviet Union into insolvency and killed the evil empire without firing a shot. I am surprised for all you anti-war people that you would not support this type of action over an invasion.”

    I am, like my president, anti-stupid war (see: Iraq). Under President Obama’s watch the dictatorships of Egypt, Tunisia and Libya have ended, without costly invasions by the US. Even so, the neocon dogs continue to howl for an invasion of Iran.
    Obama’s spending is also a plan: a plan to revive this economy, something the Republicans are on record in opposing, since their stated priority is a one-term presidency for Obama. He also has a plan to insure everyone has decent healthcare and do not, as Paul supporters applaud, die for the lack of it. Worthy outcomes, at least as worthy as the collapse of a teetering giant which had been impotent except for its missile stock for years. So impotent, a ragtag band of fanatics managed to send them home limping and almost certainly contributed to the Soviet downfall. We can only hope the same does not happen to us.

    “Bush. 9/11 changed the world. It was the first time we had taken casualties on our own soil. Homeland Security was a necessary addition to our government and an exception to the rule of smaller government. The fact we have not been hit again is a testament to the wise choices made by his intelligence agency and his administration. IF he was so bad then why did Obama follow Bush policy almost to the letter for the entire term of his Presidency to date?”

    “Homeland Security” was not a part of the trillion dollar war with Saddam. There is always an “exception” to the rule with conservatives, the exceptions almost always being those which support their authoritarian philosophy of “leave me alone, but go after that guy I don’t like”.
    Mr. Bush ushered in an era of “exception to big government” that treats and continues to treat the Constitution like, as Bush is purported to have called it, “Just a goddamned piece of paper”. If Obama signs that latest affront (drafted by conservative Republicans) to the liberty all conservatives claim to love so much (as long as it doesn’t include “that other guy”), it will be shame on him.

    “Republicans have the belief that children are sacred. They believe that the unborn child deserves to have someone champion their cause as the unborn child cannot speak for itself. Democrats for the most part believe the baby has no rights until it is born. To them geography trumps any consideration until birth. The Republicans are fighting for the things they believe in. Do you think it is wrong that they do so? I see you standing up for the mothers rights over the child. Should I then find fault with you if you make any attempt to assert your beliefs?”

    I agree with true conservatives who believe the government has no business interfering in a personal decision of a woman based on the counsel of her doctor. It is not up to Republican men in congress whether or not a woman takes a pregnancy to term. The “unborn” do not need the protection of Republicans, women need their rights protected. “Geography” (an interesting term for women) does not trump consideration. A living, breathing, thinking human does, however.
    Whether or not you “find fault” with this view is of no concern to me outside of this discussion.

    “I would love to hear your take, backed with evidence of course, on how Republicans controll ABS, NBC, CBS, CNN. Everyone else in the free world know these organizations are bent hard towards Liberal policies. I look forward to your response and proof.”

    Another of those contentions that “everybody knows”. Everyone should know ABC, NBC, CBS, and CNN are owned by giant corporations, most of which own other media entities, a practice once deservedly illegal in this country. Corporations find their needs served by both parties, but primarily by the Republican Party.
    As for “proof”, watch one of these channels and their news programming, instead of Fox News (No, I do not “know” you and cannot testify first hand to your viewing habits, but your talking points and lack of real knowledge regarding the Obama administration, suggest that Fox is one of your primary sources of information. Perhaps it is not. Perhaps the Wall Street Journal editorial page is in the mix). If you had watched in the ’00s you would have seen all of them beat the war drum with gusto. Now you will see them present uncontested nonsense as equal to the truth, in the interest of being considered “fair and balanced”.

    “I think you are a bit confused on the whole class warfare thing. OWS is not a Republican movement. It is a Liberal movement. They are conducting class warfare. They hate the rich. They hate capitalism. You completely missed the mark here.”

    OWS actually has no manifesto of which I am aware, therefore has many centers, but the salient position is a legitimate concern about money dominating our political landscape. The Citizens United decision is only one manifestation of that concern.
    “They hate the rich”. No, in the main they hate that the Middle Class is being systematically destroyed and the poor are being scapegoated to the benefit of that rich who, while not “hated”, are being asked to contribute to a civilized society. Some of the rich are happy to do so, by the way.

    “I don’t get your reference about the terror babies.”


    This is a Republican representative in the US congress.

    “As for jobs. This may have escaped you, but Democrats have the Presidency, and for 2 years a super majority in Congress. Now they have the Presidency still and the Senate, and Republicans have the house. Somehow, some way, other Presidents have managed to handle the business of the country with far less. Clinton comes to mind. I would love to hear your perspective on how Obama and the Democrats have no skin in the game when it comes to why we are where we are at today. I am all ears on this one.”

    I did not say the Democrats had “no skin in the game”, but I will offer this chart for your consideration; I am surprised you have not seen it bef- Oh actually I am not surprised at all. It is, in spite of the alleged “liberal bias” of the mainstream media, very hard to find. Daily Kos has it (a liberal blog, certainly not in any way a part of the mainstream media), however:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/06/08/983312/-Dear-GOP:-Obama-and-the-Democrats-are-fixing-the-problem-you-created?detail=hide&via=blog_589703

    My point was that the Republican battlecry going into the 2010 elections was “Where are the jobs?” My question is, where in the Republican priority list, based on actual legislation introduced, is a focus on creating jobs? Of course, there is none. If tax cuts for the wealthy and for corporations provided jobs we would be awash in jobs since Bush’s first round of cuts in 2001. Clearly, as we have seen since 1980, “supply side” solutions, if one can call them that, have failed.

    You have asked what are liberals “for” rather than against. Speaking for this one, we are against failed policies. We are for successful policies. Massive government spending, regrettably due to war, finally ended the Great Depression. Tax cuts and timidity prolonged it. That has and will continue to happen again.
    After this downturn is corrected and the economy is again in good shape, the issue of the deficit can be addressed, as it was successfully in the Clinton administration.

  724. :lol: Occupy a brain, people. The OWS is not a pretty and scripted movement and is not a cohesive force. But the message of injustice IS universal and true. There is no way to stop it, so learn about it and learn to deal with it. A line has been drawn in the sand and soon there will not be middle ground.

  725. Noah – OWS has accomplished something. They got your tightie whities in a bunch along with a number of politicans. The GOP is working very hard to disinfanchis voters along with setting up a bit of election fraud which is the only way they can be sure to win.

    Yes the Tea Party managed to make the change their Corporatemasters wanted and many came to regret it. Many of the people they elected in 2010 “worship” a book of fiction written by a sociopath. And when did we become the United States of Gover Norquist? This is the America you want to live in?

    The murder – while the victim was a “member” of OWS his murder took place away from the OWS site and a random robbery totally unrelated to the OWS.

    The rape – Tonye Iketubosin from Crown Heights – charges of sexual assault including allegedly raping a fellow Occupy Wall Street protestor and groping another in separate incidents. Bad apples can be found every where expecially in large groups of strangers. AND especially when the NY cops encouraged the homeless to move on down to the OWS site..

    Four year old to stop train – Mother should have her head examined. I could nothing that OWS asked people to bring children to put on tracks to stop trains.

    Desecration of the 9/11 monument – I could find one instance of using a war monument to hold a water cooler and when it was pointed out OWS apologized and removed the cooler. The other ones while not condoning it some looked like a bit of humor or were written in chalk but no permanent damage. Could find nothing that OWS advocated destroying the monuments.

    Defecating on the street – I don’t condone that either but when the cities refuse to issue permits for portapotties you have to realize shyte will happen. Again no where could I find OWS told people to use the lawn/side walks. Did anyone check to see if it contained kibbles?

    It is also very possible OWS was infiltrated by those who aren’t there for the same cause as the original OWS members and may even have some implants to disrupt or destroy the movement. And a media whose sole purpose was to find fault with the movement.

    A little pot – oh nooooo!

    IMO The problem with black or white thinkers. They just can’t see beyond the obvious.Those shades of grey in between require making decisions, risk and accepting responsibility. Critical thinking maybe! And of course they don’t let facts and truth get in the way. (You certainly don’t.) Unfortunately there are many of these thinkers in Congress – on both sides of the aisle.

    I know you and James have all the answers I am just not sure you know what the question is.

    Oh by the way…. while I was out working the streets for my pimp you will never guess who I ran into also working the street ….Mrs. Noah the Magnificant Anonymous and Baby Girl Noah the Magnificant Anonymous. Business was slow so we had time to talk. Noah, she is very concerned about you and your well being. She says you haven’t gotten out of the chair in front of the computer for months now. And with all that weight you have gained she is not sure you can. That you haven’t been taking care of business and she has been forced to the streets to make ends meet.

    Baby Girl is adorable, those cute chubby red cheeks, that little button nose, beautiful bright eyes and lovely curly hair. When she spoke of you she wrinkled up that little button nose, pinched it tight with her chubby little fingers and said “Poo Poo Daddy, Poo Poo Daddy”! She just giggled away until she broke into a real belly laugh. She had whole street laughing!

    But Noah, the street is no place for a child, please Noah remember the children!

    Peace.

  726. Juneau Joe, the Omaha World Herald has an editorial cartoon from a La news paper. It shows a ship labeled “Dock workers”:etc with mines nearby. They are labeled OWS. That doesn’t seem like winning hearts and minds.

    Yes, the Tea Party has fallen in the polls because they have been inactive lately. The press and Democrats are portraying their efforts to reduce the deficit as bad for the country. They also ignore OWS seamy side. The Tea Parties spurred a wave of contacts with Congress. OWS has failed to do that so far. The people who know OWS best, the neighbors who have suffered job losses and inconvience do not think highly of them.

    I’m sure they will return next spring with no better results if they don’t change their presentation.

    My grasp on reality is better than yours right now.

  727. Again on OWS. Take away the name, and it reads like a maximum security prison rap sheet. It is telling that ol Joe can continue to over look all the hanus crimes this group has committed and still consideres this type of protesting superior to what the Tea Party did.

    What is more telling is that no objective person can dispute the Tea Party was far more successful a protest in terms of results and how they conducted themselves. The fact that Joe and others like him cannot admit to that tells us the truth has no value, and that their only interest is political victory, at any cost. These are not moral people, these are not people we can trust to give us the truth or trust with power. They will always look out for themselves. Put all the words aside and judge the actions. Based on that, I’m right.

  728. Simon
    On health care. Way to simplistic an explanation. I think Obama took stock of what he had to deal with, though in his case a super majority in congress and still got little done. Obama took a pragmatic approach and got passed what he thought he could get away with.

    On terrorism. So it is your contention the previous administration had nothing to do with it? They had no policies or plans in the works that Obama continued? So Obama did all of this of his own accord? He headed up the intelligence and the execution of the mission that lead to the kill?

    Clinton should have been impeached. Now you are welcome to dismiss Newt. I however am far more interested in this country sometime in my lifetime coming out of this recession/depression and change the ways of our government of deficit spending. It is no longer a matter of want to, we HAVE to. Can you say with any honesty Obama will be the guy to do that?

    Let me start by saying I am a Conservative first and a Republican second. In order of fiscal responsibility, I rate from best to worst as Conservative, Independent, Republican, Democrat, Liberal. Today’s batch of Republicans I am hard pressed to find a good Conservative.

    As far as Bush and Regan. On Regan. His was purposeful spending. He had a plan. He spent the Soviet Union into insolvency and killed the evil empire without firing a shot. I am surprised for all you anti-war people that you would not support this type of action over an invasion.

    Bush. 9/11 changed the world. It was the first time we had taken casualties on our own soil. Homeland Security was a necessary addition to our government and an exception to the rule of smaller government. The fact we have not been hit again is a testament to the wise choices made by his intelligence agency and his administration. IF he was so bad then why did Obama follow Bush policy almost to the letter for the entire term of his Presidency to date?

    Republicans have the belief that children are sacred. They believe that the unborn child deserves to have someone champion their cause as the unborn child cannot speak for itself. Democrats for the most part believe the baby has no rights until it is born. To them geography trumps any consideration until birth. The Republicans are fighting for the things they believe in. Do you think it is wrong that they do so? I see you standing up for the mothers rights over the child. Should I then find fault with you if you make any attempt to assert your beliefs?

    I would love to hear your take, backed with evidence of course, on how Republicans controll ABS, NBC, CBS, CNN. Everyone else in the free world know these organizations are bent hard towards Liberal policies. I look forward to your response and proof.

    I think you are a bit confused on the whole class warfare thing. OWS is not a Republican movement. It is a Liberal movement. They are conducting class warfare. They hate the rich. They hate capitalism. You completely missed the mark here.

    I don’t get your reference about the terror babies.

    As for jobs. This may have escaped you, but Democrats have the Presidency, and for 2 years a super majority in Congress. Now they have the Presidency still and the Senate, and Republicans have the house. Somehow, some way, other Presidents have managed to handle the business of the country with far less. Clinton comes to mind. I would love to hear your perspective on how Obama and the Democrats have no skin in the game when it comes to why we are where we are at today. I am all ears on this one.

  729. Nothing of great relevance to say today except Merry Christmas (or “Happy Holidays” if you prefer), and it’s always great to see your posts, Helen. Thank you.

  730. AlaskaPi – thanks for the tip. Checked here and was told that the state Department of Labor would be handling all things to do with returning war veterans. Checked on that and it consists solely of benefits paperwork. Nothing to do with getting them jobs. Was told I should go down to the local DoL office and make them an offer of my volunteer services on helping vets with resumes, etc. Why do I have the feelings that I would be talking to people who haven’ a clue as to what I am talking about? I’m going to try to find some back up here. Some of these vets have been in service since 18 and never held a non-service job. They will be the ones who need the help the most.

  731. Simon,

    Thank You!! That was great!!

    OWS: It is a movement that speaks for the many people who have been hit by the NO-REGULATION GW Bush years that crashed our economy. OWS is growing – wait until spring 2012. The 1% need to pay their fair share as do Corporations. Our retirement money was gambled away on derivatives, futures and bailing out the 1% for any losses they saw.

    Some more Sunday funnies!! They say a lot so very well.

    http://takemycountryback.com/truth-sunday-3/

  732. A few of points to Anonymous, troll or not.

    A Socialist would have demanded a government run single payer healthcare system, and then, since we are in a democracy/republic, negotiated from there. No Socialist would have adopted a Republican designed healthcare program to start with. Obama is no Socialist. You should, if you wish to be taken seriously, stop such absurd claims, as they associate you with Birthers and other purveyors of nonsense.

    And, as President Obama noted, ask Osama bin Laden and others of Al Qaeda’s leadership, if he is “weak” on foreign policy. Of course, removing bin Laden from the Boogie Man list of Scare Tactics may have been a bad idea, since he is no longer useful as such; something Mr. Bush knew and was therefore less inclined to remove him.

    On to others:
    Bill Clinton did wrong. The problem with Newt doing much worse is in the hypocrisy you try to find in those who criticize him. The criticism is for the stunning hypocrisy and arrogance of a man and party who can engineer the impeachment of a president while engaging in the same behavior as the cause for impeachment. Even the Republican Party looked up and said “We can’t have somebody this ridiculously two-faced in a leadership position”, at least back in the ’90s. Would that they had that kind of spine today.

    Finally, the laughable fretting about the national debt, from someone who supports the Republican party, which ran and managed to get elected not only Bush the Second, with his unfunded mandates and cost hidden wars, but the sainted Ronald Reagan, who started with a national debt at its lowest in fifty years and tripled it.

    But we are to put even more Republicans in charge, after all look at what happened after their 2010 tidal wave, surfing in on boards illuminated with the stirring cry, “Where are the jobs?” They then went to work answering that question with attempts to roll back women’s reproductive rights, eliminating the danger of National Public Radio, ensuring corporations control the internet (much as they control all other media today), conducting class warfare while claiming that is the other side’s plan, stoking the bugaboos of “Islamic Sharia law” in places like Oklahoma, “terror babies”, and immigrants, and hardly the last or least item, but space is running low, denouncing science, both in terms of environmental change and in promotion of mythology as the equal to scientific inquiry.
    Not many jobs created from that list.

  733. Who Hates That?
    December 19, 2011

    Juanita says:
    By the way, I really loved Helen’s description of Ron Paul.

    So really that just leaves us with Rick Santorum and Ron Paul. One is fascinated with a dog having sex with a man and the other looks like a dog had sex with a man. You know. I really don’t have a problem with that.

    Anyway, Dr. Paul was real chatty and had some charitable thoughts about his opponents during this season of peace, love, and joy.

    Asked his opinion of Michele Bachmann, who Paul had clashed with earlier in the week over the question of a nuclear Iran, Paul said Bachmann “hates Muslims” and “wants to go get them.”

    And Paul added that Rick Santorum hates gays and Muslims.

    Those were odd words from the mouth of a man who hates Americans, don’t ya think?

    Under Ron Paul, if you make minimum wage with no health insurance and you get sick, then you should die because you should have thought about that before you were born with a double digit IQ. Or even if you have a pre-existing condition.

    Hush, Grandpa, you’re rambling crazy again.

    http://juanitajean.com/

  734. TeaParty favorability ratings are dropping like a rock. The OWS is seen much more favorable by more and more people. James: You can make the world in your own little mind – but in the future, you will be bit in the butt with reality.

    Even O’Reilly is saying that Newt and Mitt will say anything to get elected.

    http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/oreilly-romney-gingrich-will-say-anything-wi

  735. Hey no problem, always glad to do my part for those of close minded among us.

  736. Yes, she is. Actually, do you mind if I come and peep through your windows next? I’m sure it’s much more exciting.

  737. Is Lurky living up to his name??????

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lurky

  738. Nix, Your post reminds me of Queens’ “Fat Bottomed Girls.”

    Alaskapi is right.

    I checked Google and found a long list of veterans’ outreach programs. Then, I looked for what is available in Omaha. Help and the opportunity to volunteer is out there.

    OWS’s public relations offensive has failed in a way that the Tea Parties did not. They became offensive to people who might have been natural allies. I do agree with Cynthia that our personal freedom is slowly being taken from us.

    Judging from NOP’s comments, the dead horse will make a delicious stew.

  739. Oh you are beyond welcome, Anonymous! I’m sure working for Spell Check Inc. would be vastly superior to working for a blowhard who enjoys the sound of both his own voice and the voices in his head (maybe they are the same?) such as yourself, so thanks for the hot tip.

  740. This started my day off right. Thanks for the chuckles.

  741. When is having a fat ass a bad thing?
    Women are having ass implants to have a fat ass.

    You say want you want! :)

  742. Jesus is the “reason for the season” and Jehovah and Allah
    and the Winter Solstice of those pushy atheists who just
    WON’T STAY IN THE CLOSET!

  743. Mageen-
    Here we have this outreach program, amongst others

    http://alaskavao.org/Programs.html

    I know people involved with this one and support it. They reach places around this huge state that are out of the reach of the heavily populated area in and around ANC and assist in any way they can.
    The state does outreach too- we continue to have a very high veteran population per capita here.

    http://www.veterans.alaska.gov/state_benefits.htm

    Here vets can get help “de-militarizing” their job resumes and so on.
    Look to see what your state labor office does to help and maybe ask them about a local group to help with.
    I don’t know about other states but most of our returnees are Alaska National Guard, many have done multiple tours, and we are so very happy to have them come home .

  744. Spelling correction: Mageen. Thats what I get for multi-tasking too early in the AM!

  745. The post concerning returning Iraq war vets was done by me, Maggeen in Old Virginy. Do not know why it was posted as Anonymous cuz I certainly am not!

  746. Now, about all those vets returning from Iraq. A certain percentage will stay in uniform but there will suddenly be an increased number of them on the job market. Prediction: some will be absorbed by the FBI and various police forces but certainly not all of them. Some will join the college crowd. The rest of them will need help getting jobs. It seems that there aren’t that many vets already on board in the HR departments of industry and commerce. They can’t look at a vet’s record and translate it. These vets will need help writing resumes, doing interview training, and discovering that adding photographs to the resume will work for them. The VFW and the American Legion will help but their memberships are dwindling due to age. I am looking for a way to volunteer to help these men and women get their feet back on the ground at home. Any ideas as to how I can go about that with an existing group or do I have to create one of my own?

    There is also an assumption hereabouts that without gazillions going to a military effort in Iraq that $$ will stay at home and help out with the bills, possibly even making job hunting and job creation a much better experience.

    And before I go, bon annee to all!

  747. Hi Jean, nice to see you too. I think I am done hanging out here for awhile, I am tired of the same old…it will all be settled next November, and I, for one, can hardly wait.

  748. got another one for you JJ….

  749. Thank you Lurky for pointing out my typo. If spell check is hiring maybe that would be a good career move for you. I appreciate your meaningful contribution to the topic at hand. Nice to see us rising above petty commentary. Thank you!

  750. I find so much contradiction in Cynthia’s post I found myself chuckling out loud.

    The Tea Party interested only a small amount of people. So small, that they were able to create considerable change on the political landscape. The OWS people have global backing, or so she claims, yet they have accomplished what? A host of felonies and not much else. So what I am reading here is that Cynthia claims OWS has global support of people who had an admiration of? Murder? Rape? Desecration of the 9/11 monument? Pushing an old lady down a flight of steps? Putting 4 year old children in the path of an oncoming train in an attempt to stop it? Taking a shyt on the sidewalk in full view of the public? If I had never heard of the OWS movement, I would think someone was describing a scene inside a maximum security prison.

    Now here is where we know we are dealing with a true Liberal. Americans are fat, lazy and stupid. They need us (ie big government) to save them from themselves. The arrogance here is astounding.

    Now, amazingly enough we do agree on one thing, that we are loosing our freedoms, one at a time. This is of course occurring with the approval of this administration.

    So Cynthia, as I said in a post to Joe, and again; I found myself laughing out loud as another of my ever-so-true Liberal generalizations were once again proven true; Cynthia was kind enough to tell us what will not work, but could not go that extra mile to tell us what would work.

    So what will work? Another 4 years of programs we cannot afford? We can’t pay for the ones we already have on the books, does anyone really believe that if reelected that Obama will not institute anymore costly social policies? Is increasing our national debt exponentially really in our best interest? Is this the course that we want to stay on? Common sense tells me no. Hell no actually.

    I have to say, while not liking the entire package of what Ron Paul is, what I do like about him are the things that most need to happen in this country right at this very moment. I could see us doing far worse than having him serve a single term to whip things into shape. His ideas for the IRS and the tax code are promising, though in need of refinement. His idea for pulling in our military and to stop policing the world has my vote. There is enough to like here to defeat what I do not like, and if nominated, he will receive my vote.

  751. OK….Sunday funnies….

    http://townhall.com/political-cartoons/glennfoden

    http://townhall.com/political-cartoons/garymccoy

    http://townhall.com/political-cartoons/mikeshelton

  752. Community collEge…or maybe back to high school for you?

  753. Isaac, What we can determine from your post is you are not very intelligent and a liar. The fact you bothered to comment on a post that you didn’t read yet somehow managed to make comments on things I said further into my post says all I need to know about you. Sorry your life is such that you are so bitter. Might I suggest some time in a local community collage or vocational school as a way to improve your life.

  754. Sunday Funnies: There are some very good political cartoons.
    James: The third cartoon is for you.

    http://brainsandeggs.blogspot.com/2011/12/sunday-funnies_18.html

  755. The Tea Party appealed to a small percentage of the American people and turned off many more others. The OWS woke up the American people and the world. I had a conversation with people from Wales, Ireland, England and Holland and they are very much behind the OWS movement. OWS are not going away so quickly. It is just the beginning, they are just getting started.

    IMO-The American people have grown fat and lazy and have taken too much for granted especially the young people. They have no idea what life was like before and why certain programs were put in place. You can not see your rights being taken away bit by bit. You buy into bullsh*t you are being fed by those who do not have your best interest in mind.

    Yes the world changes as time goes on but the direction the GOP/Corporations/Rich want it to go in is NOT in the majority of American’s best interest.

    Wake up!

    Peace.

  756. Mr. Anonymous, I must admit I do not read beyond your first paragraphs because I do not find your writing style interesting enough to continue. I do not know what your product or services are. That said if your business no longer provides the goods or services that the consumer wants or that they can get a better price from another source, you really can’t blame that on the liberals or the Obama administration. The buggy-whip business that great-grandpa founded no longer had a market to make money for himself or his investors once the automobile became established.

    In addition if you can no longer compete with the big multi-national corporations who have taken their production to exploit cheaper labor in under-developed countries, then your business model needs some serious adjustments. At least you can find comfort in knowing that they are helping to raise the standard of living a little bit in those countries. Until their governments wise up and provide regulation and oversight for their people too. Does tainted and defective wallboard from China ring a bell?

    Monday beckons so Hi-Ho! Hi-Ho! It’s off to work I go to my successful business. Possibly you should stop whining and get to work too.

    Isaac

  757. Jean, yes I do if you want to. I will win the argument just as surely as I won when we argued about whether or not the US should have nuked Japan to quickly end WWII.

    Poolman, only part of the Tea Party movement was co-opted by big money. Many local organizations still operate independently of each other.

    The Tea Party’s main accomplishment was to energize Republicans to win the Congressional election. They also forced politicians’ to discuss deficit reduction. They changed the debate, and they also helped strengthen Republicans at the state and local level. Until the Tea Party, Congress and the Presidents shoved our deficit problem under the rug. That alone, makes the Tea Party’s existence worthwhile. Whether or not they ultimately succeed is unknown.

    Their negative achievement was as you wrote to split the Republican party and to support candidates who in some cases were too conservative to be elected. I think their doctrinaire attitude cost Republicans several Senate seats last time. That negative also shows in the current Republican presidential primary .They are so hostile to MItt who is argueably one of the best of a bad lot, that they switch from one un -Mitt to another.

    They are far superior to what the OWS movement has offered so far. Big money and the media also supported them.

    Juneau Joe, we already established that your first paragraph is dishonest. As Reagan used to say “there you go again.”

  758. Any accolades I could come up with as positive you would disagree with. So let me rather say let us take the examples of the Rape, Murder, Child Endangerment, Drug Abuse, Public Deification, & Defiling of National Monuments of the OWS people and compare that to anything the Tea Party has done. I would have to say almost everything the Tea Party did was vastly superior in intent, results, and morals.

  759. The tea party had corporate sponsorship and mainstream media coverage and personalities promoting it. The original grassroots TP was quickly co-opted and it had the result of splitting the GOP. What positive changes has the TP made to date?

  760. The Tea Party showed how protesting should be done, Even if you disagree with their intent, one has to say given the choice of tactics the Tea Party was a far superior model to the OWS people, and the results show.

  761. What would Jesus occupy?

    St. Paul’s Cathedral meets the occupy movement. It is interesting to see how various church congregations are reacting to people protesting and occupying their space. Many are hesitant to embrace them, although the message of injustice is one the church should uphold. It is a profound test of their true purpose and allegiances. It is making many very uncomfortable and most would rather the protesters just go away. Shake it up! :wink:

  762. Hi Congenial Gang,

    Good to “see” you NOP. It’s been a long time. On Dec. 17, 2011 @1:26AM here, I wrote something about the “teagaggers”. Now if the self-appointed political correct policemen want to pick a fight over a ‘b” and a “g” in spelling, all I can say is, “Ya wanna make something of it?”

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam and Mele Kalalikimaka! (that’s Merry Christmas! in the Hawaiian language.)

    Auntie Jean

  763. BWAH HAHAHAHA
    CHICA, YOU NEVER DISAPPOINT!
    LOVE YA!

  764. What is the alternative Joe? 4 more years of budgets we cannot possibly afford? Another 5 trillion or more in debt? 33 more broken campaign promises? More programs that will bankrupt this country and suffocate and drive off business?

    You quote some 3rd rate hack site for what? All you are doing is parroting someone else’s opinion. As for your Muslim comment, a cheap shot that has nothing to do with reality.

    Lets see something constructive Joe. Like your fellow Liberals, all we hear from you is what won’t work. Who will be bad for the country. What we cannot do. If you have so much insight into what won’t work, tell us what will.

  765. Merry Christmas All!!!

    All Troops are Out of IRAQ!!! Thank You President Obama for ending this war which was started with Bush/Cheney lies. (Deficit – A trillion for a 10 year war here, a trillion for a 10 year war there = deficit!

    http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/12/18/391546/photos-last-troops-leave-iraq-thats-it-the-war-is-over/

    The final convoy of American troops to leave Iraq crossed the border into Kuwait early this morning, finally marking the end of the nine-year military misadventure in the country. At the height of the war, more than 170,000 U.S. troops were in Iraq at more than 500 bases; now, just 150 U.S. troops will remain at the U.S. embassy. There will, however, be 16,000 people involved the diplomatic mission there — the larges diplomatic effort ever — including thousands of security contractors.

  766. Why is Newt popular with Republicans?

    http://duckofminerva.blogspot.com/2011/12/gingrinch.html

    Newt’s rise has to be attributed to his performance in debates, since, as was the case with Cain, there is nothing else to explain it — no money, no organization, and only negative name recognition. What has he done at these debates? He has no gimmick, no 9/9/9 plan. He flips around all the time. But every time he shows up on camera, we see the same thing — contempt, scorn, meanness. For everything. Newt is tapping into how nasty these nasty people feel. To others, and at previous times, this would have seemed unpresidential. But these are the times we live in. Newt Gingrich is an asshole, and many Republicans love him for it.

    Bolt down your Christmas trees everyone. And for all the Muslims out there, get an alarm system.

  767. I also don’t think the liberals were being “nice” to reveal the meaning. They did it to mock the partiers and show they were out of touch with modern culture. Some likely were being nice, but every incident has exceptions.

  768. No, I don’t recall ever calling them Tea Baggers. “They” all didn’t call themselves that name. Some but not all did. Some did speak of tea bagging their representatives by sending tea bags. A Tea Partier even threw tea bags onto the White House lawn. None of the leaders I heard around here referred themselves to anything other than Tea Partiers. Thus, I don’t believe the group as a whole called itself “tea baggers.”

    Once people learned the other meaning, most stopped calling themselves that term. Like Gwen Iflle, I didn’t know either, though I knew it meant something disreputable because their critics used it with such relish.

    Jean is a smart woman. If she didn’t know before, she knows now. I told her and several others a sex- meaning was attached to it. Liberals who use the term now, intend it as a slur to separate that group from the herd. It is different only by degree from what Marie Boine described in Scandinavia.

    As far as I’m concerned, anon, the horse is dead and cooking in a stew. However, I like arguing with NOP. She is smart, and determined. It is up to NOP. If she continues this, it will brighten my day because I like her, though I may frustrate and irritate her..

    However, as a character said on “Are You Being Served?’ “I am unanimous in this.”

  769. Is the horse dead yet?

  770. James THEY called THEMSELVES by the derogatory term of “tea bagger” until liberals let them know its other meaning. If I recall correctly, that is what you called them in the beginning as well. I still think it was nice of us liberals, to let them know that meaning, so they quit calling themselves by the term “tea bagger.” And are you so sure Jean was even aware of the meaning of “tea bagger” from the Urban Dictionary?

  771. Anon 7:17AM
    About your take on jobs. I think it is clear you have never owned a business or been in a position of hiring people. Our insurance demands we do drug screening. That is the extent of our back ground checks unless it is an office position. This notion of a business sitting on capital is an ignorant statement that tells me you really don’t understand business. Your comment on how and why people get laid off further backs up my assertion.

    Business exists to make money. There is nothing wrong with this. Business is not a government social program that owes you or anyone else a job. If my business has investors, then I have a responsibility to those investors who trusted me with their money to make them as much return on their investment as I can.

    As a business owner I also feel a responsibility to my employees. When I started this company in my garage, I had to factor in the costs of building my product and what I could sell it for to figure out what I could afford to pay myself. At one point I had 195 employees., running 2 1/2 shifts. The same formula had to be considered when determining what I could afford to pay them.

    Being in the residential homes sector, as you might imagine the housing collapse hit us hard. We are down to 1 shift, and 77 employees. This decision to lay off was not made lightly. Having both investors and employees to consider I did what I had to do so at least some of them still had jobs, and I didn’t flush my investors money down the toilet.

    The vast majority of business care a great deal more about the people working for them than many Liberals would have you believe. While you may have a point at some of the mega corporations, this is just not so with smaller local business, who provide vast majority of the jobs available.

    What you have to understand is that in any business that hopes to last for any period of time, there is a formula that tells us what we can do for employees that HAS to be followed. We factor in by what our margins are on our product what we can afford to pay. In that we cover the hourly rate, cost of training, retraining if the employee leaves for another jobs, and we look at what our local market and competitors are paying. Based on this information, we come up with a pay plan that we home promotes high employee retention while at the same time gives a reasonable return on investor money and returns enough profit to sustain the company long term and through hard times.

    Bottom line guys and gals is that I cannot do what “feels” right if I want to maintain my business in economic times like these. Sure when business was booming we had employee cookouts and contests with prizes, and no one enjoyed those activities more than me, and I was the guy paying for them.

    I will also tell you from an owners perspective, if you think that raising taxes and Obama’s medical care legislation has no factor on hiring, you are seriously kidding yourself. I and other owners in my area are scared to death of 2013. Every owner I know made alterations to their long term plans in regards to hiring and expanding their business when this legislation passed. The implications for us is huge and it will fundamentally change how we hire and what we can pay as soon as the rest of the legislation kicks in.

    Like I said above, everything we do has a formula attached to it. Obama has added a big wild card to our formula that we cannot accurately predict. This means we circle the wagons, and prepare for the worst. I am holding onto every last penny and cutting as much fat from my budget as I can so when this other shoe drops I give my business the best possible chance at lasting though the transition to this new system. I don’t think doing this makes me evil, just the opposite. I think that as the leader, I have the responsibility to ensure that my business will be here and that means making the hard choices, not the most popular choices.

  772. Anon, I forgot to remind you that I was not attacking NOP’s Tea Party references, I was attacking Jean’s. I don’t recall NOP’s ever calling them tea baggers. NOP thought I was making too much out of little. You and I need to read words printed here more carefully. I missed the whore reference and you missed the reason for NOP’s and my “debate.”

  773. Wow! Wasn’t expecting such a posting considering what you, Helen, have been through this year. Been so busy multi-tasking that I had to read and re-read your post a few times to catch everything. OK. At first at a certain point I thought, “uh-oh!” But now it seems it was a matter of spreading the responsibility around. That’s a good point. The Republican primary “debates”: yee gawds! There were so many of them plus all the news and specialty coverage that I rather stopped watching TV! Was totally unimpressed right from the start with that crew! Cuz I work so close to Capitol Hill for so many years my memories of Newt are still very fresh. During the time when he was Speaker of the House I actually had a radio at my desk politely tuned so only I could hear it. The election he blew created such a volcanic fire storm of hate from his own party that was unreal! It went on for days until he resigned. I have never heard the like from Democrats. They seem to roll better with the punches that history hands out. Yes, Newt occasionally has a good idea but by all accounts he has a habit of going way too far, especially with the promises he made just before that incredible election that cost him his job. No wonder Republicans went ballistic. They actually believed him and counted on him. No way could I ever vote for him. And its not just about his politics. Serial adultery turns me off. I could maybe forgive one fall off the fidelity wagon, but not a series of thuds. And I could swear the man is “trying on religion until he finds one that fits.”

    Also cannot vote for MItt. He’s Wall Street, not Main Street. Perry is an insult to six year olds. Cain is a salesman. He actually made Jack Abramoff look good. Bachmann has been programmed in a very unusual factory, especially when she insists that she is dealing with facts. ??? A vaccine that causes mental retardation? Holy bunsen burner! Cannot get a handle on Ron Paul and what he considers a social contract, or the fact that he gave us Rand Paul, the mythical eye doctor turned Senator. Huntsman could possibly make a good Secretary of State or U.N. Ambassador. Santorum has no chance at all cuz according to electoral odds, anyone who lost his last race while in office is usually considered a no-go.

    Yes, I agree with the dictionary definition of socialism and no, what Obama has had to do with the economy does not make me scream. What people have to do just to land a part time job these days does. Around here folks are not hired off the street. They have to go through all kinds of background check hell, etc. This gives employers more chance to sit on whatever capital they have and grow it further and deeper. If you do get past all the application gorgons you will find that the job does not offer one single benefit and, as usual, its lay off at will and without warning. No such thing as a level playing field for them with empty wallets and hungry families.

    Wait a minute! The radio is playing a medley of holiday tunes. Very lyrical and mood adjusting. My best wishes for the holidays you all celebrate and I sure hope your New Year, all 365 days, is better than what came before! Skoal!

  774. Anonymous, I was wrong. I like what I know of Cynthia and the other Anonymous. Though he was attacked first, he should not have called her a whore. I was in a hurry and missed the post. I should have defended her so I’m doing it now. She deserved a counter attack, but those emotionally charged comments stepped too far. I think Cynthia is a fine person. Calling someone a whore is as bad as calling a political group tea baggers.

    Anon does not deserve your, Isaak’s, or other people’s personal attacks or the fantasy lives you construct for him. He deserves as much respect as you do. From what we know of him here, I also think he is a good person.

    Anon’s and Cynthia’s political views do not define who they are as people.

    Common sense is wrong. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can kill me.

    Two examples, one fictional: Pink’s video “Less than Perfect.”
    Marie Boine “About the ban of joik.”

    Thank you jacy.

  775. What a wonderful world! A great video.

    Maybe we could work towards keeping the air breathable and water drinkable this coming year. (I would also hope that people will work to stop the melting of our permafrost. It is a big problem folks.)

    http://gizmodo.com/5867822/heres-definitive-proof-that-we-live-in-a-wonderful-world

  776. :roll: Is it because Santa’s watching?

  777. I guess there are some of us, more considerate types, who consider there to be no good time to use a racial slur or stereotype. Doubly so at Christmas time.

  778. What a treat! Thanks Helen! None of the people who have followed your blog for a while believe your reference to Goldman and Sachs was meant to be anti-semitic. I don’t believe at all you meant something sinister.

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours! Hope you have a good holiday season everyone!

  779. PTL that we live in a country where “men” like Noah get a chance to be big men in places they aren’t wanted. Freedom to be positive, freedom to be toxic! Everyone needs to belong. He can’t seem to find anywhere but a place where he’s despised. If you are prone to prayer, can’t think of a better reason than the disease than plagues that poor guy’s soul.

    Odd that James would attack NOP’s tea peep references, yet leave alone Noah’s implication that the very civilized Cynthia isa wh&ore. Guess he has standards somewhere… maybe?

  780. According to Hot Air, Rick Perry earns $150,000 as Texas governor. The combination of his military service and other work qualifies him for retirement benefits at age 61. He played by the rules and paid into his retirement funds. Now, thanks to early retirement, Perry gets a monthly retirement annuity of $7,689 before taxes or $6,558 net. His gross annual salary is now more that $240,000.

    Other people like me don’t plan to collect Social Security until age 70. How can he convince old people on the federal dole to relinquish some of their benefits to save our budget when he doesn’t practice what he preaches?

    Omg James you are so right! I know that I will be working well into my 90’s before i can afford to retire!

  781. As soon as word got around that Helen had a new post, several million hits surfaced on this blog. From the comments her fans leave, it can be assumed that these people dearly love Helen, her humor and POV. Except for two who persist in hanging around and cluttering up the place. Do they ever wonder why nobody really likes them, cares anything about what these wet blankets have to say, has one kind word for them and for the most part, ignores them. It must be hard for their families and friends, if they have any left, to put up with such stuffed shirts. Well, they are probably ignored most of the time at home too and explains why they spend so much time here.

    We do love you, Helen! Cheers. Keep calling it as you see it.

    An occasional reader, Isaac.

  782. Helen,

    Thanks for your post. I always look forward to them. This was a bright spot in my week. Enjoy your holidays and look forward to your 2012 posts.

    CJG

  783. According to the dictionary the term anonymous means:

    Lacking individuality or distinctiveness

    It would appear that if one wanted to make a statement that is worthy of discussion they would pick a moniker that indicated they were worthy of notice.

    As poolman stated: Labels, smabels.

    We all could use more common sense…

    Common sense tells one that sticks and stones can break your bones but words can never harm you.

    However words are often used on this blog to harm not inform. The choice is out there for everyone. Use your words wisely.

    I wish for everyone a peaceful Christmas season and if Christmas is not your thing then I hope you enjoy peace during the winter solstice.

    Peace to all

  784. I was referring to Poolman’s comments, not the video. OWS has failed for the reasons you stated.

  785. Guess I have a hard time supporting a group of people who Murder, Rape, put their 4 year old child on a train track to try and get a train to stop. Defecate on our public sidewalks. Not sure I can get behind this kind of common sense.

  786. Labels are what I’m talkn about. Its common sense.

  787. Labels, smabels.

    We all could use more common sense…

  788. Its not about me, and I’m not living in the past. . It is about mutual respect. If it is all right to use Tea Baggers, it is fine to use rag head, wet back, pollodk, or limey.

  789. Oh get over it James, you live in the past way too much. I think liberals did the right thing and let the tea party folks in on the joke, so those, who did refer to themselves by that title quit. And quit taking everything so personal, it is not all about you all the time, in fact scarcely any of the time. Peace.

  790. A long time ago, Lori apologized for calling me a Teabagger after she realized I was defending them but not a member because they were too conservative for me. That was nice of her. She will likely never read this, but others will.

  791. We all can do what we want, but if you are going to be respectful you ought to avoid using terms which might be construed as offensive regardless of who first used them. Yes, the joke is over, and we all know the double meaning. When someone still uses it I regard it as a slur and when I feel like it, I will bring it up.

  792. Nop, you please take note, the Tea Partyers began as scattered meetings with various names. One of the earliest called her protest an anti -porkulus rally. Mark Santelli’s rant made “Tea Party” name viral.

    In 2009, someone suggested people send tea bags to their representatives as the Libertarian Party had once done. It would be part of a commenorative tea party. That suggestion also went viral.Later, a nation wide Tea Party was organized from Chicago, and on April 15, 2009 other demonstrations occurred in over 700 cities. Some people claimed they were tea bagging their representatives without understanding another meaning. I never heard a Tea Partyer call him/herself a Tea Bagger. The leaders of individual protest movements certainly didn’t–at least the ones I heard about.

    Liberals began to mock the Tea Partiers and once they understood the sexual connotations most of the minority whow used the term stopped. A few may have continued as a counter attack the way some blacks use the N word. Gwen Iffle applogized for using the term after she learned its sexual meaning.

  793. Look Cynthia, JaneK, Richard Hughes, poolman, and others. This is heading down the same ugly path it always seem to go with you guys. You all claim to dislike this place when it turns ugly, but you are always the ones to launch the personal attacks. I am drawing a line in the sand now. We either wipe the slate clean, and restrict our comments to our differences of opinion, setting aside the personal stuff, or we can play your game, and ruin this blog. I would much prefer the former, but in either case I am not going anywhere. So the choice is yours. You decide what kind of blog this is going to be. I will just follow the rules of the game you all decide to play.

  794. James take note, the tea party originally called themselves “tea baggers”; the joke was they were so out of touch with modern American culture, they had no idea what “tea bagging” meant. They finally quit calling themselves “tea baggers” so the joke is over, why do you keep bring it up?

  795. Its nice to know something will never change. Take Cynthia for example. As she goes through her day as a human punching bag for her pimp she always seems to be able to take time out of her day to come on here to toss unprovoked and unneeded insults at strangers. Thanks for being you Cynthia, now get back out on that street and earn your man his money.

  796. Merry Christmas Helen and Happy Hanukkah Margaret!

    And a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, or Happy Holidays to all!

    Helen thank you for the gift of a new post. Please keep turning them out.

    Anonomous Noah, I guess you did not get the memo from President Obama. Yes the world is coming to an end. You need to just accept it and go with the flow like the rest of the world. Or please, please talk with your doctor about your medication dose. It has you so strung out I fear for your well being!

    Peace in the World!

  797. Helen and Margaret -and everyone at M&H – may 2012 hold peace and health and love for all. And, wishing everyone the happiest of holidays!

    Oh- and a wish for our country -may we find a way to discuss and implement public campaign finance reform. That’s the only change I could believe in…..

  798. I know I must have missed something. I was told many moons ago that there is to be a SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. And ever since Bush got in it has been more Church than state. I don’t want a person from any religion telling me what to do and how to think. I have my own thought. Beside God did not write the bible. MAN did in his own words. This country has gotten very scary

  799. According to Hot Air, Rick Perry earns $150,000 as Texas governor. The combination of his military service and other work qualifies him for retirement benefits at age 61. He played by the rules and paid into his retirement funds. Now, thanks to early retirement, Perry gets a monthly retirement annuity of $7,689 before taxes or $6,558 net. His gross annual salary is now more that $240,000.

    Other people like me don’t plan to collect Social Security until age 70. How can he convince old people on the federal dole to relinquish some of their benefits to save our budget when he doesn’t practice what he preaches?

  800. Dear Jean,
    “Time was when there used to be some smart, well-informed articulate” Democratic “spokesmen in Congress who had the best interests of the country at heart. Whatever became of them? Oh I know. The” George Soros “types took over.”

    “Time was” when we didn’t call a class of people like the Tea Party a sex act.

    “Time was” when no one in Congress would have considered a “slow bleed.”

    Neither party is a good role model.

  801. HRH Sofia, happy birthday!

  802. Dear Helen,

    What a pleasure it is to start off the day with a new post from you! Your summation of the current crop of GOP/teagagger presidential wannabes is superb. Time was when there used to be some smart, well informed, articulate Republican statesmen in Congress who had the best interests of the entire country at heart. Whatever became of them? Oh, I know. The Karl Rove types moved in and took over. Now we have the Koch Brothers, the what’s-his-name, “no-taxes-ever-pledge” guy and the bought-and-paid-for-stooges of Rupert Murdoch teaching people how to think their way and what to say to promote their agenda. Their only intelligible word is “NO!”

    Oh well, anyway, I do send my best wishes to you and your extended family for a joy filled Holiday Season. That includes both Christmas and New Year’s, anybody’s birthday or holiday festivities that bring people together to celebrate. After that, we can take up the Democratic banner again throughout the coming year.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam.

    Jean

  803. Jesus is the reason for Christmas, but there are many special holidays in the December/January season.

    I was very happy to see another wonderful post from you Helen. You always make my day.

  804. Oops. I didn’t realize Margaret was Jewish. Happy Hanukkah, Margaret, to you and yours.

  805. By the way, the symbolism is reinforced by the fact that both Goldman and his son-in-law are dead.

  806. I think you are right. Margaret is Jewish and Helen is Methodist. Harold was Catholic. I assume Howard is Jewish too? Or maybe it’s another mixed marriage?

  807. I love you more than my luggage! You are so funny and get the point across as well. I understood exactly what you were doing with the Jewish remark. Once one religion or race gets called into question, all religions and races do. Good for you. If I’m not mistaken, Margaret’s Jewish. Right?

  808. Hey JaneK. If I called myself Peter Paul or Mary, what would it change? Because your real name is JaneK exactly as its spelled yes?

    jacy
    We agree on a lot of things. I am for a new amendment to the Constitution that prohibits congress from passing any laws that do not apply to them or laws that apply only to them. The self interest has to go. Congress needs to stop being the place that people go to to become rich.

    We need to stop kicking the debt can down the road. We need to pick whatever social programs we want, but we have to start paying for them. Our kids do not deserve to be burdened with our debt.

    This administration has already spent $5 trillion and is showing no signs of slowing down. Say what you will about Bush, when it came time to hand out money, he wrote a check to you and I. Obama wrote checks to big banks and big business. You can listen to the rhetoric, I chose to listen to his actions. We need a change, and it can’t wait another 4 years.

  809. Thanks for calling it like it is, Helen. You da bomb!!!!

    anonymous @ 1:34 pm: you’re a coward to not put your name…. just sayin’

  810. I too, am so happy to see a new post! I love the way you see the world Helen. May you and yours have a Merry CHRISTMAS!

    And Sunny, You Rock!
    Obama would be able to do alot more if it weren’t for the OVER PAID, SELF CENTERED Congress beating down every good plan or bill the man has had and tried to pass. Not to mention all the CLEAN-UP he’s had to under take from the wonderful Bush administration. Clinton left this country a surplus and Obama inherited a deficit.

    And for you Anonymous… I am neither republican or democrate, I always vote my conscience for what I feel would help the AVERAGE people like myself who have gone from middle class to poverty because of over zelot polititions who believe that the goal in life is to have more than anyone else, who vote to bail out banks and wallstreet because they think thats what’s best for their own investments. Where is the bailout for the small businesses in this country who go bankrupt and send half the small town that works for them to the unemployment line?

    Any way, that’s it for my rant… I wish you all a Merry Christmas or A Happy whatever Holiday you celebrate.
    Margaret and Helen….Thanks for the post and the pie!

  811. Helen, what a delight to see you back again so soon! I was afraid I would have to hold your Thanksgiving post, like Linus’ blanket, for comfort all year till next Thanksgiving. You’re always SO spot-on. Please keep posting, and may all your days be merry and bright.

  812. Season’s Greetings Margaret and Helen!
    Peace on Earth and Goodwill towards all.

  813. Happy Holidays, Margaret & Helen!

  814. Alaskapi, thanks for the article. I agree with much of it, and have read similar thoughts before.Yes, we basically agree. My only point was that the comment about Republicans not liking blacks was a slur. Part of Helen’s charm is her blatant unfairness, but when I feel like it I will call her or anyone else on it.

    As you know, I have been exploring my family roots. I discovered my mother’s family is also descended from Vikings. My last name has Danish -Jewish roots, and my family has three races. I can’t afford to feel racial prejudice against anyone.

  815. This particular Jeff owns 2 Fortune 400 companies, few who do business in the area don’t know him.

    Sunny Hemphill, I think your hate is blinding you to the obvious point I was making about Newt.

    As for the shot at my Wife, just more of the same on this blog. Nothing is sacred, nothing is off limits.

    End of the day this President has racked up over $5 trillion in debt, we lost our credit rating and are going to lose it again. He is weak in foreign policy. His views in Israel seem to match up with Helen so I see why she likes him. The only good that will come from Obama care is it will be the rope that hangs Obama’s Presidency.

  816. Now it feels merrier. We have a post from you. Many more in 2012, please!

  817. I know of several Jeff Chen’s. Three of whom work for me, Chen one, two and three. There are also several thousand Chen’s in China, many of who I have met, but cannot say I know them. There is also one who is doing some amazing work with whole-genome duplication in Texas, but I have only met him in passing at a function. I doubt I made much of a memorable impression on him, so I don’t count him as “known.”
    Now I am late for bed, Hanukkah starts Tuesday, so Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas, or whatever turns everyone’s crank. Good Night…. the Euro awaits tomorrow…..

  818. Anonymous: states·man (sttsmn) n.
    1. A man who is a leader in national or international affairs.
    2. A male political leader regarded as a disinterested promoter of the public good.

    Newt led the Republicans to lose both houses of Congress and led himself into fraud charges. I have always believed ‘statesman’ implies more than simply getting oneself elected to national office. Money tends to do that. As for the Socialist label on Obama — anyone who has given as much to Wall Street as he has cannot be considered Socialist on any count. You have your opinion about what Socialism means, but the big book of words says this:s
    socialism [ˈsəʊʃəˌlɪzəm] n
    1. (Economics) an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state. It is characterized by production for use rather than profit, by equality of individual wealth, by the absence of competitive economic activity, and, usually, by government determination of investment, prices, and production levels.

    yeah, nothing there about considering anyone stupid. Even if it was, that is not immoral. The definition below should clear up for you the real definition of immoral. In my mind, Newt’s adultery and financial fraud would fit this definition to a tee.

    immoral [ɪˈmɒrəl] adj
    1. transgressing accepted moral rules; corrupt
    2. sexually dissolute; profligate or promiscuous

    Please pass my regards to Mrs. Anonymous

  819. Helen, that summary rocks. Merry Christmas to you and to all here, no matter what (if any or, indeed, if many) religion you profess.

    Taube, I don’t think Helen hates Jews. If so, I’m surprised because she seems tolerant of many people. Rather, I think she was polking fun at Newt with a stereotype that also polks fun at Newt’s many forms of Christianity. Unfortunately, the stereotype fits Goldman Sachs.

  820. Merry Christmas!! Well said Helen!! Time for more pie now.

  821. Merry Christmas UAW!
    There wasn’t any venison jerky in my mailbox today either . I was so hoping …

    http://www.msgr.ca/msgr-2/king_johns%20christmas.htm

    And everyone else, whatever it is that they celebrate this time of year.

  822. NOP….I’ll give in….MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE…..

  823. Not feeding the troll…not feeding the troll. . .not feeding the troll.

  824. No worries there That Other Jean. At last count he had 33ish fully broken campaign promises under his belt. So he has a lot to chose from.

  825. just reposting something from Whirled Peas….

    Richard Hughes….as a 1%er is Newt at fault for taking consulting money from Fannie Mae or is Fannie Mae at fault for not listening to Newt……..whether they take his advice or not shouldn’t he be paid…..and the 1.6 million was over 10 years……..

    guess what happens when you google….check out #5….hint….where did the money go….

    http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/bundlers.php?id=N00009638

  826. Beautiful! Spot on, too. As always, Helen, a post from you made my day. I’m hoping for Ron Paul as a third party candidate. OK, I’m really hoping that Obama gets smart and does more of the things he said he’d do if we elected him, so we could just laugh at the Republican candidates instead of worry what would happen if one of them got into office.

    Merry Christmas to you and yours, and Margaret and hers, too.

  827. Taube, I have to be honest I have never understood the hatred so much of the world feels for Jewish people. I like to think despite having firm beliefs that I can at least understand where a perspective is coming from. This one has always eluded me in part because of the global scale of this hatred. I only ever dated one fully Jewish girl in my life, and other than her taste in Celtic chant type music, I found nothing to suggest why people might feel that way. Her parents were not real thrilled I wasn’t Jewish, but they were kind, polite, hard working people. No different than any other ethnic family I’ve ever met. I use the term ethnic to denote they had long held traditions based on their culture and religion that I as a white American lacked.

  828. You have nothing to prove to me Richard but just out of curiosity do you considering the region of the world you are working in and that level of business, do you happen to know Jeff Chen?