Posted by: Helen Philpot | May 3, 2011

72 Virgins Just Changed the Channel

Margaret, I wish Harold could have lived to see this day.  As a veteran, he was always hopeful that we would one day get Bin Laden.  He would have been very proud and then he would have been pissed.

Had I not seen it with my own eyes, I would have never believed it.  FOX found a way to turn even this into a negative for Obama.  I tuned in after you called and watched Sean Hannity make a fool of himself like you were saying.  Honestly, that is exactly what I would have expected from FOX – complaining because the US military took the time to follow Muslim traditions before eventually ditching the son-of-a-bitch at sea.   Sean, of course, wanted something a bit more flashy.  Had we done it Hannity’s way, the body would have been photographed wearing Princess Beatrice’s hat.  Honestly FOX, why don’t we just  hang him on a cross and see if his followers retaliate?  Sean is an idiot.

Of course Greta and Glenn were vying for stupidest person on FOX as well, but a race to the bottom on that network is over before it begins.  Was I the only one who noticed all three of them kept accidentally saying Obama rather than Usama? I bet not.  But I bet I am the only one who points it out.

It’s called honor Mr. Hannity, Mr. Beck and Mr. Van Susteren… you jackasses.  Obama understands it.  The US military has it.   FOX needs it. It makes us better than them.  But I guess the morons over at FOX are more worried that 72 Virgins really were waiting for him.  And yes, I know I typed Mister Van Susteren… plastic surgery can only get you so far.

Ten years were a long time to wait for the end of Bin Laden.  I ask you, how long before we see an end to FOX?

Change the channel America.  I mean it.  Really.

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  7. I’ve been a lurker for quite a while, but hadn’t had a chance previous to this to introduce myself or comment on your most excellent blogs.

    I felt compelled, though, to break that fourth-wall and extend my regards for Harold’s passing & my glad thoughts on you being able to continue on in your inimitable fashion.

    VERY glad to hear that the move went well – and I completely understand about such an endeavor being quite a motivator to purge so much of the clutter & baggage we aren’t even aware we have accumulated! When my wife & I last moved, we donated somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 *car-loads* of items to our local resale shop (the proceeds of which go to one of the largest agencies for persons living with AIDS in the metro-Chicago area).

    As my very as-religious mother likes to say, “may this gesture be a blessing to us both – they get something new & I don’t have to clean/sort/wash/keep track of it any more!”

  8. Pfessor, the Denny Burk site quotes Behring Breivik, the shooter. “My self and many more like me do not necessarily have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God. We do however believe in Christianity as a cultural social identity and moral platform. That makes us Christian.”

  9. April 1 e mail “… and the mountain snow pack is only slightly above normal and nothing to write home about.”

    On April 4, a manager wrote his counterparts were being ignored when they warned of a serious flood potential. “managers will not even bother to call in if they feel like they are not being heard.”

    April 15 ” All the ingredients are in place for major flooding”…Jack Hayes, Director of the National weather Service

    April 25 “System storage is currently only ` MAF shy of where it peaked in 2010, and inflows to the system remain much above normal. One of the mainstream reservoirs, Oahe, is only a few tenths of a foot below the exclusive flood control pool. In short 1022 is already a huge water year in the Missouri River basin, and we’re just getting started.

    I’ve cc’d Kansas City district H&H branch to see if they have any regulation flexibility particularly in the operation of HS Truman resevoir in Missouri.”

    May 25 “I’m headed home. I no longer look people in the eye and tell them the forecast is 85,000 from Garrison”

    A response “I understand. I quit answering my phone after our call at 1:00PM.”

    Later, of course, the flow rose to 160,000 cfsf where it still is from the dam above us.

    Change the words and circumstances. This senario is replaying in our government from the president on down.

  10. Where this flood is concerned, my sense of humor has left me. The Sioux Falls Argus Leader obtained e mail communications under the Freedom of Information act.

    It is as damning as Climategate or Journalist. The Corps were warned of a possible disaster as early as January, but they ignored the signs and believed they could handle the extra water.

    After record rain and snow overwhelmed the system, they assured down stream interests flooding would be minimal. One woman said they had stopped answering the phone instead of dealing with people who doubted their chances of stopping the flood. They could have shared their near certainty that an unprecidented flood was on its way, but those bastards lied to us and to themselves. Telling us in April would have purchased valuable time.

    I see what is happening around me, and it makes me mad, because the Corps now tells me I was right when before they brushed me off.

    Yes, the country is in trouble, and guess who caused most of the problem. Our government. They are as culpable as the Corps.

    So, don’t expect much light- hearted banter from me over the flood. The flood water is close enough to our house we can smell it- a sickly dead fish sort of odor. We are camping out. Much of our stuff is in three different houses. At least we have a house to move it back to.

    Those bastards…

  11. James, you really should learn to spot sarcasm when you hear it. I have news for you, the whole country is in trouble! There are oil companies begging for more and larger subsidizes and can rich bankers be expected to use the same 18k gold toilet seats at the office year after year? And you thought you were going to the head of that line?

  12. NOP isn’t here to read my “I told you so,” but here it is anyway. KFAB.com has another areal video of our flood. On Thursday, a dike broke and flooded our cousin’s child hood home. She still owns it, but rents the house to another family.

    We have lost a lot of money, and many have lost much more. We have been declared a disaster area which makes people eligable for low interest loans. Loans must be paid back. So far, the gifts NOP said we’d get have not materialized. Given the economy, we shouldn’t get them, but my point is she was wrong.

    Several schools are considering delaying the start of the new year because the flood danger still exists, and the location of some district families is still unknown.

    While our son was visiting, the family saw the water pouring out of Gavins Point Dam. Heavy rain sent our rivers up last week, but now they have dropped about a half foot. The worst is over, but the flood will remain for at least another month.

    Hang nail my foot!

  13. Some liberals, including the New York Times are trying to blame the shooting on American conservatives. Maybe there is a connection, but I think the main danger remains islamists. I don’t think they “just made one” any more than Rush Limbaugh made Timothy McVeigh. You could as easily blame Janet Reno for him. The shooter made himself.

    Anonymous, you are probably right. I wonder when cognitive dissinence sets in as reality contradicts their cherished verities.

  14. Any of you see this?

    http://www.politicususa.com/en/norway-terrorist-dominionist

    Very interesting. This is the little movement that Queen Esther is so fond of, I’m told. Pretty chilling stuff. I had a little discussion with one of these fellows right after the last election, when he was talking about his “gun” and making an obvious threat in high places.

    I told him, damned fool – you think they just made one?

  15. I have to believe its an old bitties club that becomes more and more exclusive as the intolerance level rises. I noted in my Grandparents that they were always very set in their ways, naive to the changes in attitudes and mindsets in the world. My Grandmother on my mothers side was the kindest, sweetest person you could ever hope to meet. At age 85 she was still working 30-40 hours a week at a mom & pop pharmacy, worked 16 hour days as a volunteer during elections, and donated time at the church and the school. For whatever reason, black people, men in particular, scared her to death. She could deal with them on a professional level at work, but in private she you could always see the apprehension. She had mentioned one time that as a little girl her father warned her to watch herself around black people and it stuck with her to the end of her days.

    There was no real rhyme or reason to my Grandmothers attitude, it was just how things were. I think a lot of the posters that fled to the kitchen that way. There is no rhyme or reason to how they think about things, it is just how things have always been. This makes having constructive conversations seeking out a greater truth to be all but impossible. IMO, they are not capable of an honest examination of what they believe, they just want to talk with people who will parrot their own beliefs back to them so they can have this one small place where they believe everyone thinks as they do.

  16. While skimming, I read a comment by cryptoclearance or whatever the pen name is.She wrote she no longer subscribes to the kitchen because a clique has a restricted section where only the favored can post and read.

    I don’t visit the kitchen and what happens there is none of my business, but her comments attracted my attention.

    . Maybe they have good reason, or maybe they are showing their true colors as some did here not so long ago. They have a right to do anything they want, but the comment was interesting.

  17. This is not good news for democracy or our freedom http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/23/super-congress-debt-ceiling_n_907887.html?ncid=webmail1

  18. He should be fired and charged.

  19. Interesting video of an Ohio cop threatening to kill an armed citizen who has a concealed carry permit.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/you-fu-with-me-cop-threatens-concealed-carry-gun-owner-during-traffic-stop/

    The citizen tries to inform the cop that he is armed but the cop won’t let him.

  20. Three years of Obama has given us:
    
- $14.4 trillion deficit
    – ruined economy
    
- ignores the War Powers Act
    – gas/food/clothing prices skyrocketing
    – 5 wars, one with a record death toll
    – foreign policy disasters

    – raiding the public pension fund to avoid the debt ceiling

    – lost 800+ seats for his own party
- 44 million Americans on food stamps
    – Over half the states suing to get out of Obamacare. 

    – 1 in 4 mortgages under water
    
- ATF gunrunning scandal unfolding
    :smile: YES WE CAN! :smile:

  21. Obama should do the honorable thing as Johnson did and announce he will not run for a second term.

    Too much to ask if O’Blamer would fall on his kiddie sword and leave us all together, so we could strike his utter failure in every regard from record?

    I could give the man kudos and a shout out for that.

  22. The world I knew ended on June 1. Normality will not return for months. Now, it is the nation’s turn. “Its the end of the world as we know it…” REM “I believe the world is burning to the ground…” Matchbox 20.

    I believe the Republican version of the latest broken negotiations for the budget ceiling. If I am right, and we fall over the edge, Obama should do the honorable thing as Johnson did and announce he will not run for a second term.

  23. A sheep…calling someone else a sheep..priceless.

  24. It’s a hoax anyway. Leave it to Noah to not only buy it but continue to distribute it like a loyal sheep.

  25. I understand perfectly well. Like Hitler you want to rewrite history to your own myopic version so it fits into your belief system, stomping out all others.

  26. Noah
    You are so full of yourself (and other stuff)
    I’m not a Christer. Gave that up 60 years ago.
    But why do you think you can decide not to drink Pepsi but I can’t. Its called freedom of speech just in case you don’t understand.
    Freaking idiot.

  27. Anonymous, I find your rush to embrace discrimination disturbing. I find it even more disturbing that if you are a Christian, especially a white Christian, it is accepted by Liberals like Anonymous to discriminate at will. None of our traditions are protected. None of our heritage has value. You do not have to believe in God to respect the fact that others do. Christian beliefs are part of the American heritage and Liberal people like Anonymous seem to have no problems rewriting historical words to erase our heritage. No one is harmed by us paying respect to our history. It is a historical fact that should not be, and will not be if I have anything to say about it, erased.

    Promoting the rewriting of history is a grievous crime, and had I a say would be dealt with in a most extreme and permanent way, as should any acts of Treason.

  28. Dear Helen, where are you? The world needs your views. Like some faithful old dog, every morning I plod wearily out to the mailbox (okay, this blog) and lie down, ever hopeful … I do hope things are going well for you.

  29. Pepsi minus 2 customers if they put those words on the can

  30. Quote for the day:

    “The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.”
    — Alexis de Tocqueville

    Watch out, boys – the secret’s out…

  31. Pepsi cans coming out with pictures of the Empire State building and The Pledge of Allegiance on them. Pepsi left out two little words on the pledge,”Under God”. Pepsi said they didn’t want to offend anyone.

    Rather sad imo. Pepsi minus 1 customer.

  32. You’re welcome Alaskapi, If I find something else, I will tell you. No, I don’t think all of the folks who don’t post here left because of fear. I believe they just don’t like us, and I don’t care. Remember Sally’s jokes about my armadillo skin.

    I think of you and hope this new family development doesn’t get too complicated. I’m not thinking much about politics either because our son is still here from California. I hope to visit Alaska some day too, but I will never step inside of a small private plane. The last times made me think God was out to get us.

    After nearly a week of heat indexes over 110 we have cooler weather and thunderstorms. The ring of fire will be over us today, and the couple of days of eighties is a good thing.

  33. Alaskapi-

    I have several friends in Anchorage with whom I exchange regular correspondence and an occasional phone call. I couldn’t imagine any politics there except Libertarian, since self-sufficiency and personal responsibility could mean the difference literally between life and death, especially out in the villages.

    Hope one day to get up there and take some bush flying lessons from this guy:

    http://cubdriver749er.com/

    Good stuff. Maybe some day…

  34. James- Thanks! looked em up- will read more when I have time.
    Summer here is very short and very intense. Fireweed is blooming- summer is over when fireweed is done:-)
    Murdered nephew’s son likely coming to visit- something which has set off a chain of need-to-deal-with-personal things much more important than politics so don’t be thinking all of us hippie-commie-liberal-weirdos are just hiding out.

    UAW-
    Pretty surprising isn’t it?!
    I ended up so far in the bottom left-left I almost fell off the chart :-) figured I’d just be a teeny bit off center… guess not!

    Interesting set of parameters there- explained to me why some lefty things torch my shorts- I am not a left authoritarian type… too libertarian for that.
    take care.

  35. Alaskapi, in case you are still interested and have looked in, an Israeli company, Grow Fish Anywhere claims to be able to raise fish in a contained system which drains no water outside. That is all I know about it.

    Sometimes, it is better to fight another day when you are unarmed, Noah. Otherwise, i think they just don’t want to be “around” us, because they could be doing a lot with Rupert Murdock’s trouble.

  36. One thing I find interesting as the world is crumbling around the Messiah, the Liberals have gone silent.

  37. Obama recently said he disagrees with his earlier statement and that he was playing politics then. Its too bad the press didn’t research his past with the diligence they used with Sarah Palin.

    Ben Franklin, I think said our society will last until people learn they can vote themselves money and what it buys.

    We are near the tipping point when consumers will out number producers.Washington still has a few brave enough to do the right thing, but time is fleeting.

  38. I really encourage anyone to get Laffer’s book. It has really opened my eyes. When they just print money, it transfers the money from your hand to theirs and they don’t need to do anything else. It’s the oldest trick in the book for unscrupulous politicians.

    If there are a million bucks of goods in the world for example, and let’s say you have 10,000 dollars in the bank. If the govt prints another million dollars, the value of your 10K just went to 5K and the other 5K went to them. Just like that – and they didn’t even have to face the voters by passing a new tax. This “quantitative easing” is sucking everything out of your bank account and you don’t even know it. Mine, too.

    I’m sure you have seen this; it’s been all over the Internet.

  39. What gets me is the incredible hypocrisy of the Mesiah. How can someone make that speech, then turn around a few short years later and do what he is doing? We need no further proof that he will do anything, say anything, to further his agenda. He cannot be trusted.

  40. I’m onto another book: Laffer’s “End of Prosperity.” It is really intriguing to follow his history of how the various presidents have destroyed our monetary system – beginning with Richard Nixon and his taking us off the gold standard. That freed the Treasury to fire up the presses and print as much fiat money as they wanted.

    History has example after example of how, once the money supply goes to pure paper, the politicians cannot resist just printing and printing – which is what we are doing now. The result is default – either overt, or covert as our money becomes worthless.

    God is there nobody in Washington with the guts to do the right thing? Americans can take the sacrifice – they have done it again and again – but they WON’T sacrifice when it will all go down a rat hole.

  41. “The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. . Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that .the buck stops here.. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.”

    — Senator Barack Obama, March 20, 2006

    Things that make you go hmmmm.

  42. Pfessor, google Missouri River flood of 2011 Lee Valley inc. or something like that. Click on July 3, page one, and you will see pictures of the spillways and lake at Gavins Point dam near Yankton, SD. That is also near Tom Brokaw’s old home. Other pictures on other dates include views in the valley including near our farm.

    The site also has some pictures of the farmers and allies who built their own dike and later blew a hole in it to equalize water pressure and save three towns.

    Lee Valley is the business wing of a farm family which lives across the river from us. The next dam upstream is Fort Randal, and others reach to Montana. Each is releasing a tremendous amount of water.

    KFAB.com may also have some pictures.

    Speaking of sink holes, people in Council Bluffs have been running their sump pumps all month. The city told some to stop if sand is coming through the pumps. The water is taking the ground with it, and creating sink holes. The Omaha air port had some sink holes until they dug seventy ninety foot drainage wells and pumped water from them.

    A survey shows about half of Britain’s rich people want to leave because the weather is too bad, it is too politically correct, and taxes are too high.

  43. Marvelous, I have a hard time understanding this point of view and wonder if you can explain why you feel as you do? I find that all voices have value. When we lose a voice, or point of view, we are all less for it. I listen to both Liberal talk shows and Conservative talk shows and would wish for neither to go away. By hearing the same story from two different perspectives, I almost always find myself better informed.

    In a country such as ours where we purport to cherish freedom in its many forms, I cannot understand why so many of the Liberal bent attempt to do everything they can to make sure theirs is the only voice. If anyone can show me how the desire to stamp out any voice isn’t inconsistent with the founding principles of our country I am all ears.

  44. Sad and funny as always. Hopefully it will be much sooner than ever thought when FOX goes away. Okay, just wishing. How does one make change in areas like these. One way is not to support them by turning on their channel. I admit I would have to give up a few shows, but I want a better life and planet and it would be worth it. There is always better things to do with ones time like be proactive at least in my community.

    We have sink holes in Florida where the ground opens up unannounced, sometimes to great sizes. We could always start stuffing people we don’t like in them to fill in the hole. It would save tax payers dollars.

    Oh, sarcasm.

  45. alaskapi….
    HOLY S#$T
    I looked at your charts(and then took the test) and I am farther left than Obama…..
    but then those charts should show Obama to the right of George W…..
    but they were good for a laugh….
    before 9/11 Rush even accused “W” of being left of center….
    if I had to put Kennedy on that chart it would be just below Mccain and maybe a little right

  46. James –
    Which dam is being released? I’ll see if I can find a video.

  47. Yes, PFesssor, we live on an amazing planet. The high evaporation rate is surely helping lower the flood level, but combine the extra air-born water with normal crop aspiration, and you have an uncomfortable situation. The new local forecast is for a heat index of up to 120.

    The flood has stabilized, and those who stayed dry will likely remain dry. People are moving back to a town which was depopulated except for six families around the first of June. The high evaporation rate should also slow the rise of ground water which is basically cleaner flood water. Crops in patches within walking distance of our house are slowly drowning, but the water has quit expanding. A few spots are now only mud.

    If water leaves before the winter freeze, I plan to gather some five gallon pails of stranded minnows and put them in our lake.

    This rain forest environment is also good for mosquitoes and similar creatures. When I was picking raspberries, something slimy stuck to my left hand. It was a tree frog. I like tree frogs, so I was careful not to hurt it.

    The Corps of Engineers orgionaly planned to reduce the Gavens Point release to below 160,000 cfs on August 23. The new date is around August 1. They plan to slowly lower the river level to avoid damage. If it goes down too fast, erosion will increase.

    Our son leaves on Sunday. Before then, the family plans to drive up to the dam and watch the water. The dam has become a tourist attraction, and we will probably never see such a water release again.

    My being able to tell the Corps of Engineers and FEMA “I told you so,” was especially satisfying. They were mad at first, but since I was one of the few people to be nice to them, they agreed with me.

  48. James –

    I just went to an online “engineering toolbox” and took a look at evaporation rates. Given the spread of the floodwaters and their sun exposure, the amount of evaporation is tremendous.

    Then I looked at the inflow from the river itself and while the evaporation is helpful, it by itself won’t be enough.

    Amazing planet we live on.

  49. Yes, Media Matters has a problem. So does Rupert Murdoch’s empire. It is human nature for one side to ignore its own short comings and maximize the others’.

    The outing of a CIA operative sent the left into a frenzy as they dreamed of Bush officials being marched off the jail. It didn’t happen, and as Wayne thinks, little will come of this.

    Even if Fox News should be destroyed, it would rise again because the concept is too valuable to ignore. Conservative leaning news has ratings and makes money.

    Meanwhile, the Missouri River has risen about a foot in Omaha, but the dikes are holding. NOP told me not to worry. The government would shower us flood victims with gifts. However, Ag Secretary Vilsack told the area not to expect much aid beyond what is normal because the budget will not allow it.

    Our disaster status will make us eligable for low interest loans, if we need them. That is enough, but of course, the money will be paid back with low interest as it should be. So far, we see no debit cards or mobile homes. Families are still living in camp grounds etc.

    President Obama couldn’t find the time to visit the flood area when he was already in Iowa. Michele Bachman canceled an engagement to fly over the flood zone. She was aware of the symbolism when Obama was not. She gained some favorable air time at Obama’s expense.

    Once in a while, I enjoy saying “I told you so.”

    Now, people are suffering with heat indexes of up to 118 degrees as much of the country is.

  50. Wouldn’t hold your breath Old Crow. FOX News nor the WSJ are involved the British scandal – other than both are owned by Murdock and the Dow Jones head resigned – a man who later became editor of WSJ. Six months from now, both will still be far and away #1 in their respective markets and libs will still be whining and crying.

    However, what you should worry about is your beloved Media Matters hit squad. Apparently they’ve run into a real problem with legality declaring War on FOX News. Gee, that’s terribly bad news. :smile:

    (T)hat is, an organization that can receive tax-deductible contributions to engage in educational activities. The more precise purpose was to counter alleged media bias and so to “identify occurrences of excessive bias in the American media, educate the public as to their existence, and to work with members of the media to reduce them.”

    What (Media Matters for America) MMA actually is doing, however, moves far afield from identifying possible bias to mounting a campaign to undermine a major media outlet and to promote the Democratic Party and progressive causes associated with it. Mr. Brock himself has described this new strategy as “a war on Fox,” an effort “to disrupt [Rupert Murdoch‘s] commercial interests” and look for ways to turn regulators against News Corp.’s media outlets.

    MMA’s activities should disallow its tax-exempt status in two fundamental ways. First, IRS rulings make clear that attacks on individuals, statement of positions that are unsupported by facts, and use of inflammatory language and other distortions will cost an organization its tax-free status. Second, in declaring “guerrilla warfare” on Fox as the “leader” and “mouthpiece” of the Republican Party and in developing a sophisticated Democratic-leaning media training boot camp, MMA has transformed itself into an aggressive advocate for Democratic and progressive causes and thus produced a second deviation from exempt educational activities.

    Now wouldn’t that be a shame if Hillary Clinton’s hit squad and Barack Obama’s lackeys joined Air America in the dustbin of media history?

    Good luck…The Dimocratic beloved George “Nazi” Soros may have to start over again.

  51. Thank you Wayne, for the complement. From what I know of you, I believe you are also a good man. If we were in debate class I’d hope we were on the same side.

    I don’t like personal attacks, Someone who has different opinions can still be a good person. On one site, where I was also outnumbered, several of us became “friends.” One was a writer who edited a farmers almanac for a former employer. He asked me to guess the national weather, and I did for the three years he edited the magazine. Another man sent me CDs of his band. That wouldn’t have happened had we not seen each other’s humanity.

    On the other hand, when I was in the service men were trying to hurt or kill me, I was conflicted, because I believed they were just like me. We were merely threats to each other. That didn’t matter when the time came to eliminate them, They might have been the nicest men in creation, but it was them or me.

    I got the same feeling when bullies ganged up on outliers on this site.Some were good to me, and some were jerks. I decided that this forum would change. I didn’t know how, but I knew if I waited others of like mind would find the site. I am relentless, patient, and goal oriented. And as Sally observed, i have a thick skin.

    “You also remind me of a younger James with less nightmares…” Sally, I never thought of that. Maybe I like Noah because I like myself. Ha!

    I am too happy for much angst today. Flood water is on two sides of our farmstead, but our house is still dry. The detour to Omaha is still open, and we are in Omaha with our son at our daughter and son in law’s home. We will be here for a week before he returns to California. His wife just mailed my Fathers Day gift.

  52. Hey look, a Troll, just in from fantasy island.

  53. Well, Helen you just may get your [and my] wish regarding FOX.

    Acourse, it’s just too bad that a family had to wait in limbo, clinging to false hope that their daughter might still be alive since her phone was still being activated. But hey, what’s a little collateral damage when the public deserves the RIGHT TO KNOW, correct?

    And, so what if victims of 9/11 had their phones hacked into by people who had no right to the information on them? The prurient public has a RIGHT TO KNOW and that’s all that matters, right?

    FOX is going down. It’s just sad that it took so much suffering to make it happen.

  54. Pfessor, sometimes things just don’t turn out the way we want it to, and there is a better way to spend your time – you just have to find it out for yourself. I take classes – lots of them, mostly on taking care of ourselves financially.

    Maybe you should start your own blog like “chatty kitchen” or Rutherford’s. You can make the rules – I know I would if I had one. Douse the flame throwers if you want, or establish ground rules. People like me don’t like to have lively discussions that turn into insults, and I also don’t like to be pushed around, so I just leave.

    Respect is earned. It starts with being decent to others, or being filthy rich, lol.

    Here is a handshake across the Pacific from my plastic Honolulu laptop.

    Sally

  55. And one more thing, Sally –

    I need to follow my own advice.

  56. “Pfessor, something changed about you recently, and it is a welcome change. ”

    Don’t know about that. I know I am not having a good time and that makes it not worth it. I hate the arguing and even more I hate HAVING TO. I come here to discuss and learn and it is clearly the wrong venue to do that. You spend days trying to learn something from someone and then somebody else comes in and starts a flame war – and I won’t be pushed around, so it’s Katie-bar-the door once again.

    I hate it. I just hate it. The ‘blogosphere’ has become such a waste of time. When I was in college my friends and I used to meet and drink beer and have really lively discussions, but nobody got mad; we were all friends and had respect for each other. Here everybody is anonymous and doesn’t give a crap. I just hate it. There has to be a better way to spend my time.

    Anyway, appreciate the comment. Thanks.

  57. It has always been difficult for me to “hold my own” in discussions because of my non confrontational nature. I do not see any benefit from arguing points that only become like pushes on the playground. I am the type that tends to yield with a “maybe.”

    And thus, by admitting my shortcomings, shall be bowing out shortly. I don’t have the time or the need to defend what I believe.

    Pfessor, something changed about you recently, and it is a welcome change.

    Noah, even though you have been the target of many attacks (sometimes deserved, many times not), you have a good mind because of your willingness to seek more than what you believe to be true. I think Michael Moore presents very good evidence about the events of 911. You may not draw the same conclusion as I have, but at least you will be willing to look at the opposing side’s case. I know he is biased and slants his productions to the far left. (Actually, I would be considered a villian with his judgment calls on capitalists.) You also remind me a bit of a younger James with less nightmares.

    UAW, indeed, we are a long ways away from Kennedy’s years. We were far less divided then, or was it that we were more united?

    Time and relationships are 2 of the most important resources we have. I really need to spend those elsewhere right now.

    Aloha, Namaste, and Peace be with us all.

    Sally

  58. Fortunately, since you have been on board, everyone has been able to get quite a lot of practice – I thank you for that.

    Well, you’re certainly welcome too. I’m glad I could assist in helping everyone, as that certainly my intent. Have no fear, though. My purpose has pretty much been served. At least, until the election draws closer next year.

    I always did confuse you with Mother Theresa. Sorry, I couldn’t think of a loving atheistic reputation off hand, so I had to make religious analogy once again. :sad:

    I’ve seen your calming influence here, your warm nature, numerous friendships, your examples of great humanity, and diplomacy. Why, I’ve practically modeled the ideal human hospice after your demonstrated example on this very board, and damn if I don’t want to be just like you.

    However, I just can’t let your comment go without a reminder just so the resident diplomat remembers a previous conversation we once had during first acquaintance on this lovely blog.

    Of course, finding wisdom in one part of a Book of Magic does not mean that every word is gospel.

    However it ends for you Pfesser, as we’ve discussed before, and in the grand scheme of linear time which is the only thing you capable to acknowledge, that’s but a picosecond – and It ends ugly, book of Magic, or not. Real ugly, no matter how it transpires. I truly do hope you understand that. Something tells me all that flippancy and power position in the hospital isn’t going to mean much sometime soon, flaming out not with bravado but a whimper on a hospital bed desperately looking for an answer. Trust me on this one – your family isn’t going to replace the reality of “the void.”

    See, I’ve witnessed it first hand, and all before with another acquaintance doctor, much of the same cloth as you. Professional, successful, calloused and cocky. He didn’t go out so flippantly like he had previously claimed he would.

    Just a reminder of an unfinished conversation we once had. But absolutely, believe as you must. I would live it up if I were you.

    —-

    P.S. – there is one person who will be very, very happy with this exchange Dr., and I shall surely guarantee she doesn’t miss any of these, though she would like to leave us both with the impression she is not the least bit interested. I’ll give you a hint. You once told me to refer to her as ‘Princess’. Until I arrived, I think you were her favorite. :wink: I’m afraid she found a new “love” when I showed up.

  59. You are quite welcome, Wayne –

    Believing in magic does not make one unqualified for ALL pursuits – including those that involve the Great Questions, such as how to handle anger in others. Fortunately, since you have been on board, everyone has been able to get quite a lot of practice – I thank you for that.

    Of course, finding wisdom in one part of a Book of Magic does not mean that every word is gospel.

    Cheers.

  60. Dr. Pfesser, in your atheistic mannerism, I commend you for quoting very elegantly from men who are professed Christians time and again – even if King did plagiarize The Letter from the Birmingham Jail, which was quite good.

    However, from that same book you deny/quote, you’ll also find this verse:

    Ephesians 5:11

    And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

    Consider me doing God’s work here. :smile:

  61. Editor,

    Has America become the land of special interest and home of the double standard?

    Lets see: if we lie to the Congress, it’s a felony and if the Congress lies to us its just politics; if we dislike a black person, we’re racist and if a black person dislikes whites, its their 1st Amendment right; the government spends millions to rehabilitate criminals and they do almost nothing for the victims; in public schools you can teach that homosexuality is OK, but you better not use the word God in the process; you can kill an unborn child, but it is wrong to execute a mass murderer; we don’t burn books in America, we now rewrite them; we got rid of communist and socialist threats by renaming them progressive; we are unable to close our border with Mexico, but have no problem protecting the 38th parallel in Korea; if you protest against President Obama’s policies you’re a terrorist, but if you burned an American flag or George Bush in effigy it was your 1st Amendment right.

    You can have pornography on TV or the internet, but you better not put a nativity scene in a public park during Christmas; we have eliminated all criminals in America, they are now called sick people; we can use a human fetus for medical research, but it is wrong to use an animal.

    We take money from those who work hard for it and give it to those who don’t want to work; we all support the Constitution, but only when it supports our political ideology; we still have freedom of speech, but only if we are being politically correct; parenting has been replaced with Ritalin and video games; the land of opportunity is now the land of hand outs; the similarity between Hurricane Katrina and the gulf oil spill is that neither president did anything to help.

    And how do we handle a major crisis today? The government appoints a committee to determine who’s at fault, then threatens them, passes a law, raises our taxes; tells us the problem is solved so they can get back to their reelection campaign.

    What has happened to the land of the free and home of the brave?

    – Ken Huber
    Tawas City, Michigan

    Truer words….

  62. re: how to respond to attacks.

    I’ve tried it all different ways. As a lifelong atheist, forgive my quoting the Christian Bible, but nothing is ultimately satisfactory except as in Proverbs: “A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.”

    You will find the same idea in MLK’s “Letter from a Birmingham Jail.” This problem has been solved before; it is well-known what works and what does not. Preemptive attack and even strong response TO an attack is never what gets the job done long term. If you are attacked personally your choices are “a soft answer” – which works marvelously – or none, which is ofttimes good enough.

    When I am attacked personally I have the verbal wherewithal to leave ‘em bleeding, but I am, in the long term, not happy. I have personally suggested burying the hatchet – those that want to, anyway – and have been met with crickets time after time. So be it if necessary, but for me at least, the offer still stands.

  63. uaw- where would you put Kennedy?

    http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2008

  64. :oops: I desperately need a preview key. One to many “ares” there in the first sentence.

  65. James, you’re are apparently a good man. I admire those that hold their tongue. But never forget the body is made of many parts, each “effective” in their own way.

    My advice to Noah was no attack on any particular person but simply the bad example of the latest two. The two mentioned are neither any better or worse, anymore mendacious or irresponsible than others of the resident hack crowd who frequent here.

    Wayne, I agree with Noah about separating the person from the opinion.

    That is a philosophy I do not necessarily agree. If opinions are to me anything on a board, then the summation of those opinions must be caricature of the quality of those voicing the opinions. A bully, a tyrant, a despot, a liberal hack understands one thing and one thing only – a bigger bully. I believe your conclusion James based on a false premise – that this Chatty Cathy Kitchen crowd are reasonable people seeking reasoned debate. Their game is nothing more than rank propaganda, under the liberal banner of “What’s in it for me?” They are no more reasonable than jihadists and about as rational. Therefore, I will treat them as such.

    However, I remember when people treated me and others as badly or worse than you treat them. You are only one man. Consider a horde of attackers. They should be able to cope with you as we few did.

    And that horde of attackers and their style is exactly why my demeanor towards them will continue to be one of ill intent. I didn’t like the way they treated and singled out the meek or the young

    These gutless cowards are threat only as long as they can act as a pack. Consider my method a taste of their own bad medicine. :wink:

  66. Go see how much the Koch Brothers would like to have a beer with you.

    In your fantasy world of life without FOX, no more so than George Soros paying for your talking points. But I’ll say this for the Koch Brothers that I can’t say for Soros: (1) They didn’t sell their legacy to the Nazis; (2) They aren’t convicted felons.

    “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”

    Except my comment had little or nothing to do with patriotism other than it a virtue – a noun the progressive ilk not capable of understanding. I remember just 30 some months back, most of Libs telling us patriotism was the highest form of dissent – unless of course, the dissent is directed at Obama and his henchmen.

    I’ll say it again Kate – you and your philosophy are morally bankrupt and without virtue. As adults, your opponents deal with your rank propaganda recognizing the lies, and your canyon wide gap in the reality of truth. As parents, we hide our children from it, where possible. You’ve basically ruined public education as monument to your inadequacies. Your well on your way to taking the rest of America with it. :wink:

    I suspect the real reason you see fewer M&H posts, is one can only call Sarah Palin a bitch and Rick Perry an asshole so many times, or blame George Bush for all of our problems before it becomes apparent to all but the most dim the problem ain’t Sarah, Rick or George. I doubt you’ll understand that either, unless MSNBC and Andrew Sullivan tell you otherwise.

  67. By “credible” I meant that no one denied that Iraq had attacked our planes in the no fly zone. The people who questioned our rational for going to war were not saying Iraq never attacked our planes. At least I don’t think so. I was just answering Poolman’s question.

    The first and second Gulf wars were like wars one and two. They were two phases of the same war.

    I opposed our invading Iraq when we did, because the war in Afghanistan was unfinished, and we were still paying for our neglect after we used it to help defeat the Soviet Union.

    The time might have come when we had to invade Iraq, because its government was slowly crumbling, and the country had many weapons which terrorist groups could have stolen.

    ? a liberal columnist supported the invasion on the grounds that our creating an outpost with an alternate political culture in the middle of jihad land made the war worthwhile. The Bush administration also used the concept as a rational for war.

    In my opinion, the Bush administration overplayed the weapons to scare people into thinking Iraq was an immediate danger.

  68. Noah- I agree with you about they whys it failed . I simply have had the feeling that we might have understood those things if we had been in a better and more rational national frame of mind at the time and worked hard not to let the war happen.
    At the very least, we may have been able to require that the DOD do better by our men and women we sent there as regards the poor planning based on the incorrect assumptions regarding nation-building and Iraq’s conventional weapons caches.

    http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07444.pdf

    ————–
    As a wild crazy liberal :-) I found myself at odds with others of my political persuasion in my support for the first Gulf War. It was narrowly defined as pushing the aggressor out of Kuwait , had international support monetarily and troopwise, and requirements for Hussein to co-operate afterwards under threat of a variety of sanctions including us bombing them to open up his arms programs for destrution and overview.
    Within that narrow , well defined set of objectives I could lend support . I know a lot of people wanted it to be more or less and plenty got irritated at Hussein’s games over the years afterwards but we did ourselves no favors by allowing ourselves to get into Iraq later- whether for nation building, getting even with Hussein, or all the other reasons folks accepted the “inevitability” of that war.
    I’d hope that the American people would have been more critical of all the foofarah building up to the invasion had they not been recovering from the shock of 9/11.
    The Bush administration was reportedly looking at hows and whys to revisit Iraq even before 9/11.

  69. James….
    I agree with you about Kennedy being clasified republican now…..
    we’re a long way from “Ask not what your country can do for you”

  70. alaskapi, I think the end results would have been the same no matter what our reason for going in. Our fault lies in an attempt to nation build for a people we did not understand. We went in assuming everyone, given the choice, wants democracy. Two factors were working against us. #1 For hundreds of years, one dictator or another has ruled that region. This is a culture that has never known anything close to democracy. #2 Saddam kept a very tight leash on information in his country. All his people knew about us is that we were the evil empire. They had nothing to contest this, so it was ingrained into their mindset.

    I do not think the average person in Iraq has a firm grasp on or wants democracy. When so many generations have lived for so long another way, we should not have expected them to jump at the chance for a different way of life. Even those that do are so inexperienced that it will take decades to make anything that is stable and lasting. I don’t think we had a clue what we were getting into when we went in. 17th century thinking in the 21st century.

  71. “No credible people contradicted the administration and its allies when they used Iraqi attacks to help justify the war. If they had been lying, someone would have produced the evidence, but no one did.”
    ——————

    http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/03/karl-rove-book-george-bush-iraq-wmd

    http://inthesetimes.com/article/5663/sorry_rove_bush_did_lie_about_iraq/

    James- while the issues surrounding Iraq firing on our planes certainly had something to do with the eventual move to invade Iraq the primary purpose for invasion was purported to be the WMD thingy. I’m with you on conspiracy theories but would contend that the shock to the American psyche regarding 9/11 made for an almost unilateral ignoring of any voices raised in contrary or questioning of facts at the time to the run-up to the war.
    There were plenty of credible voices , including the head of the UN weapons inspections team, raised about a number of US contentions and we ran roughshod over them all or worked hard to discredit the speaker.
    Our children will look at all this someday and be sad we were so lost in shock and anger that we chose to shut out information and views which might have added to a better plan and outcome.
    And when I say we- I mean all of us.
    Thank you for Time fish citation- problems with the story but interesting nonetheless.

  72. Noah, I understand.

    Like you, I believe unadulterated facts and results speak for themselves. Most of us are locked in mind sets which will not let us see the whole truth. Pettiness is the last resort of people who can not reconcile facts with their belief systems. Or maybe they just don’t like someone. A number of people who disagree with me have been nice to me. I will not attack them personally.

    This morning’s exchanges reminded me of John Lennon’s “Magic Karma is gonna get you”.

  73. I agree James, just remember where my advice is coming from. I have a post dedicated to bashing me by this board’s hosts. I just like to think that those of us that know in our hearts that we are in the right, can rise above the pettiness. Not that getting into the mud isn’t sometimes fun.

  74. Wayne, I agree with Noah about separating the person from the opinion.

    However, I remember when people treated me and others as badly or worse than you treat them. You are only one man. Consider a horde of attackers. They should be able to cope with you as we few did.

    If Karma exists, you are revenge for past misdeeds.

  75. That book is right PFessor, and we are well down a road to perdition the leftists are taking us.

    Sally, with all due respect, and I do respect you, your explanation of the first hours of 9/11 and the government’s including Bush’s early reactions are bunk, unworthy of discussion without facts. Give us documentation, not impressions.

    As for picking JFK as the greatest president in history, Marilyn Monroe would have agreed. Kennedy might have become the greatest president in history, but most Democrats today would have rejected him.. By today’s standards, he would have been a Republican. His tragic death left us with little but glitter and the hint of unfulfilled promise.

    Katie,what do the Koch brothers have to do with this discussion? The Koch brothers are little different from George Soros, a primary funder of leftist causes. The the Kochs are a counterbalance the left wants to destroy.

    Would you like to have a drink with George who as a teenager collaborated with the Nazis to save himself?

    Wayne’s “most of the problems” paragraph is right on.

  76. Sorry that was incorrect information on the font size, that is the Ctrl key and the – or + key

  77. Wayne. I get what you are saying, and agree with much of what you say. Some a little less intense, some at least as intense if not more. What I am suggesting is that until the first shot is fired, a pinch more diplomacy wouldn’t hurt. I sometimes feel your concise points are sometimes lost inside the insults. I don’t think much is lost giving them the benefit of the doubt if they are able to present their ideas in a civilized manor. I enjoy a good debate. If they make it personal, tear them up if you see fit. If they are civil, lets tear them up intellectually. I think who and what they are is brought out in their ideas, the way they present them, and their reaction when their ideas are challenged, making preemptive analysis of their character unnecessary.

  78. Sally, the first invasion of Iraq came during Bush Senior’s watch. We stopped just short of Baghdad and allowed him to keep his country and surrender after he invaded Kuwait. I also know Clinton, during that 18 month period that Saddam would not allow weapons inspectors in gave at least one public address on the topic.

    As far as Fahrenheit 911 and Michael Moore go, I will consider it. I am hesitant for two reasons. One, the man has lost all credibility for his blatant hypocrisy. This is a man who definitely does not practice what he preaches. He has one set of rules for himself and another for everyone else. Not sure how I can take his production seriously when the man who made it has so many issues. Secondly, I tend to shy away from any movie that attempts to promote a false portrayal of events as this video has been claimed to do. I do the same thing with any movie on historical events that Hollywood has dressed up for entertainment sake, as I tend to file them in my mind as facts.

    When you have a font size issue, you can often hold the alt key down, and press the – or + key to shrink and enlarge the text on the page to suit your needs.

    As far as you vote for greatest President, Kennedy had a rough road ahead of him had he lived. Hindsight being 20/20, I think he would have faced some pretty serious scandals in his very near future.,not the least of which his affairs outside of marriage.

    As far as Bush being to blame for the economy, there are a few things you need to take into consideration. The Democrats had complete control of the purse strings. Democrats headed up the two committees where we had our economic collapse. End of the day, the Messiah has created more debt in 3 years than Bush did in 8, even if you put the war costs on his watch. It is this massive debt that is now doing us in. As nice an idea as Messiah care is, we simply cannot sustain it in our current economic condition. What Liberals now have to ask themselves, is Messiah care worth selling our country down the river. Are we willing to run the very real risk of sacrificing our kids and grand kids future for health care? If we have any sense of morality, the answer should be hell no.

    As far as a choice between socialism and conservatism, there is no choice. I think, no I know, there is a plethora of evidence to prove conclusively that socialism does not work. I am a huge Star Trek fan. Nothing would please me more than one day to have everything provided for everyone, and everyone;’ on their own, contributes to make that kind of society possible. As it stands we do not have that kind of integrity now. Welfare proved that people are willing to live with less and less to get a free check. The path of least resistance is human nature. Socialism takes away the average person’s need and desire to excel. Why do more if it is all going to be taken away. I don;t know about you, but that is not a place I want to live in.

  79. The History Guy wrote “The No Fly Zone War, 1991-2003″ The Iraqis fired missiles at our planes several times after 1998 after they stopped cooperating with inspectors who they possiblly rightly believed were spying on them.

    No credible people contradicted the administration and its allies when they used Iraqi attacks to help justify the war. If they had been lying, someone would have produced the evidence, but no one did.

    Conspiracy theories are like bad lovers. They are fun, and some times true, but usually the victim feels special because he/she thinks few can see the charms he/she does. His/her friends shake their heads and ask “what does he/ she see in her/him?”

    Thanks uawtradesman. “What a maroon!””

  80. No wonder Helen doesn’t post more. Gotta be irritating as hell to have to read all these rightwingnutz comments.

    Gotta say, when all is said and done, nothing is better than seeing it all boiled down to “Marxists and communists by another name.”

    Go see how much the Koch Brothers would like to have a beer with you.

    “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”

  81. You know Noah,

    Since I assume I am quite a bit older than you being my kids either graduated from college, or close to graduating, let me give you a piece of advice – though I doubt you really need this when talking behind closed doors. Consider it preaching to the choir.

    What you should fear and pray about is that there aren’t many more Poolman and Sally Lulu types in America who base their facts on the credibility of movies produced by discredited commie propagandists like Michael Al-Moore who has enriched himself at these dolts expense (he uses dummies like Sally), who all but even the most brain dead of libs have abandoned by now, that believe America behind 9/11 (Poolman still thinks it’s the Mossad in conjunction with BushCheneyHalliburton – no kidding), and believe the Chatty Kitchen crowd are “intelllects.”

    If you want to know what is really wrong with America, it isn’t Obama, or Nancy Pelosi, or Harry Reid, but the profound inanity like those mentioned and millions more who put these fools there in the first place.

    If you want your kids to have any quality of life left in the America like you have, you better figure out how to keep any influence of these fools completely out of your children’s lives. Private schools, walled communities with parents of like mind – keep this moral relativists a driveway’s length from your children’s personal life until your children are adults. The Left is a horrible influence upon the young, and the Left is on the wrong side of virtually everything virtuous. Your kids will end up much the better for it. Trust me…

    One day, it might be required to completely secede from these fools. Be careful being too friendly, because one day you might be facing them down in a real battle and you don’t want these b&b’s to know anymore than they need to carry on a general conversation. Don’t trust them any further than you can throw them. They will attempt to hurt you one day. I guarantee that.

    Never forget most of the problems in this country are entirely due to the Left’s amorality, lack of judgment and sense, cowardice, treasonous behavior, dishonesty, and self-centered nature.

    Marxists and communists by another name. :neutral:

  82. Noah,

    I was a bit older than you when 911 occurred. The news I got about the events of it, as well as the events leading up to the US (Bush & Cheney) declaring war on Iraq were from the newspaper and the 6:00 news. Back then, news was news, and opinions were not counted as news.

    Did we defeat Hussein/Iraq prior to demanding he allow inspections? If so, I was not aware of it.

    Perhaps your recall of the events at that time are more accurate than mine. I really do not have the time or desire to look up the specifics. Basing my recall on “Fahrenheit 911″ and its correlation to the news I did pay attention to gives me a much different viewpoint from yours. I must also admit again though, that my dislike for GW and my belief that the election of 2000 was flawed unlawfully colors my vision. At least I can admit that I am not fair and balanced, the way that Fox News claims they are.

    (btw, although I disagree with your assessment of Wayne’s skills and intellect, I thank you for trying to tell him to be nicer. In that rather appeasing paragraph, you showed me that you are a better person because of the consideration and acceptance of others you are willing to show towards someone like me. It is the reason I usually say and mean “Namaste” to you when signing off. It is very difficult for me to “namaste” Wayne, though I do pray for him as I also chuckle. )

    Regarding Gore if he were the President and my statement that 911 would not have happened is based on my belief of the 911 conspiracy. Too many little incidents support the conspiracy theory. Since you do seem to be the type that seeks the truth, one day, when you have the time, please watch Michael Moore’s movie and let me know which of his “proofs” are false, and which are true. “Bander” Bush? Joint venture business partners with the family? Assignment of Air National guard that day? [Poolman, I couldn't really read the link you posted about the Coast Guard. The font was too small for me.]

    One of my thoughts is why GW wasn’t whisked out of that Florida classroom and into a secured and safe bunker immediately. He had already heard (also claimed he had “seen”) of the attack on the first Tower before he reached the classroom. Yet, he fulfilled his commitment to read to the class and walked in to sit, and stayed.

    My husband woke me up that morning after he turned on the tv. He said, “America is under attack!” As I watched the replays of the disaster, I prayed and thought that it was the end for the life that we were accustomed, and we would be at war. Surely, if the attacks were as much of a surprise to Bush & Co as they were to us, then he should have been swept away on Air Force One or some safe haven before even entering the classroom. I recall he was asked about why he didn’t get up immediately and leave after news of the 2nd Tower, and his response was he didn’t want to upset the kids. 7 minutes of stunned silence? Reminded me of OJ being driven slowly on Los Angeles highways with a gun to his head.

    My vote for the greatest President of the 20th century? I would say President Kennedy (yes, the Liberal choice though I don’t always vote Democrat). I am glad to say that I am not old enough to have lived through the Roosevelts, Truman, etc. eras. Eisenhower was a man of integrity, I thought. The senior Bush? My conspiracy theory beliefs begin with him – “Family of Secrets.” Lots of associations, influences and coincidences that just happen to be unknown to most. If the power of the internet as well as the “dirt digging” of today were present during his term, I wonder where we would be today.

    Noah, one thing we do have in common is our concern for our futures. I was scared and fearful during the Bush years. I still am. Right or wrong, I believe he really was the catalyst for this devastating economy. It doesn’t matter who though. We are in devastating economic times. Perhaps it is because of our antagonistic 2 party system and the changing of the guard every 4 or 8 years that we are in this predicament. Socialism or Capitalism, or something in between – which is it to be, and if it is to be one or the other, I would think it would take long term commitment to one choice for it to have a chance to succeed, instead of one party’s policies this term, and another party’s policies the next, managing to cancel out whatever progress could or should have been made.

    And now I’ll get all spiritual and say that we as individuals need to do what we can to help ourselves and others, and we put our trust in God that it will all work out.

    Namaste,

    Sally

  83. Milton Friedman was one of the smartest economists to ever live. Reagan listened to him and look what we got….

    I had a college professor that made us study Milton Friedman all the way back in 1980 Pfesser. Hated him for it then – love him for it now.

    Except for what good it will do when the floor drops out. :mad:

  84. Just blistered through “Debt, Deficits and the Demise of the American Economy,” “The Black Swan” (don’t bother) and am starting “The End of Prosperity.” Debt/Deficits is truly interesting; the inescapable conclusion is that the trillion-dollar “stimulus” and “bailouts” are precisely the wrong prescription – like trying to put out a fire with gasoline – and that the inflation monster cannot be controlled at this point. I am truly afraid we are going into a period like the Weimar Republic – a loaf of bread for a trillion dollars.

    Interesting comment by the authors of End of Prosperity. “A few years before our dear friend Milton Friedman died, two of us were on a panel with him. He said that he was puzzled by a paradox of modern America. “The lesson of the last fifty years,” he said, ” is that socialism is a failed economic model and that free-market capitalism is a far superior organizing system. But our politicians and intellectuals seem to have concluded from this that what we need in America is more socialism.”

    ‘When including the interest cost to the (Bo’s) spending plan, the cost to taxpayers is more than $1 trillion – (which has failed to produce any significant upstroke in jobs). For about that amount of money we could have suspended the income tax for an entire year. Now that *would* have created millions of new jobs.’

    We are in a world of doo-doo, my friends. A world.

  85. :oops: Oh, damn!
    I forgot the “p” after sum and added an unnecessary “it” after off in my last post. Sometimes life is like a bowl of cherries…

    Noah, thanks for that post. I, for one, think the news today is mostly a narrative written to sway opinion. The events are generally real, but the explanation and slant is often prejudiced.

    Sometimes the news reports these events before they even happen. That kind of gives me a skeptical view of the media’s “facts”.

  86. I generally work weekdays. Today is Saturday. Yanno, the day honoring your god. BTW, I already paid the phone folks off it in small monthly installments. You’ll have to try harder in discrediting me…

    Reads to me, if you’re having to make “small” monthly installments on a phone bill Puddles, you ought to work any day you can get it. :grin: What on Gawd’s earth is your free credit score Wizard? 82? The dregs…

    ——–

    No need for me to discredit you Drip. You do an absolutely wonderful job on all of these boards you plaster that stupid screed of yours.

    What are you dummy? A masochist, or something?

    I used to think this was your lame attempt at self-deprecating humor. Then I realized you’re so dumb, you publish your egregious personal failures for the entire world to read. WHAT A MORON! :lol:

  87. poolman, I am sure there is documentation out there, I know it was in the news for about 3 weeks. At the time I was in some class or another in college that what was going on in the news for that semester was the topic of conversation everyday at the beginning of class, which is why I remember it so clearly.

    As far as what is going on today in politics with the debt. I am all for the Republicans stalling things until spending is dealt with. Increasing taxes will only make this a long lingering death. No new tax should be allowed until we show you can be fiscally responsible and pay our own way. Anything short of that I say we are better to default than to continue to run our country into the ground. Revoke Messiah care, rework it and reintroduce it.

    Wayne, if I might make a friendly suggestion. You make brilliant points and you articulate them better than 98% of the people on here. I think you and I are alike in a lot of ways. Where we differ is I am a reactive retaliator, and you are a first strike retaliator. Right or wrong I have no issue giving back when someone comes at me first. My point to you is that you make your points so well, and the vast majority of your arguments are so air tight you do not need to attack people personally. I think doing so detracts from many of the brilliant points you make. Your logic does them in far better than any insult you might come up with. Now if they chose to come at you and make it personal, then by all means verbally clean their clocks. Just my 2 cents.

  88. ***GUFFAW***

    Typical Wane/Tex assumtion/comprehension skills. I generally work weekdays. Today is Saturday. Yanno, the day honoring your god. BTW, I already paid the phone folks off it in small monthly installments. You’ll have to try harder in discrediting me…

    How do these folks survive to reach adulthood? It has to be our nation of artificially cushioned reality. Really a disservice to humankind.

  89. Sally, Wane claims to be a “born again” Christian in the flavor of an Evangelical Baptist. Makes me giggle when I read the bulk of his posts. Actually he IS on my prayer list, too. He thinks he has the exclusive/elusive key to the “real” faith. Comic gold, really.

    I’ve noticed Puddles you like to swipe my lines. The more you hang around me, the more you parrot me. Should I be flattered? I thought an uneducated “drip” like you finally found work? What did that last? A day?

    If anyone wants a good laugh, go read Poolman’s post at Rutherford’s blog as he shares the intimate details of a losing proposition for a life, and the exaltation of finally finding work. Academy Award winning comedy!

    Robert “Puddles” Tilton, aka Poolman, couldn’t even pay his phone bill and welched on the bill like he did his mortgage for three years, the resident holy roller walking away yet again, letting everybody else on this board pay for it. But I’m on “his prayer” list? :twisted: I’ll bet you’ve got a direct line to the supernatural Poolman. Unfortunately your line and buried and smells of sulfur.

    I think I’ll add you to my “prayer list” too Al Capone. My first prayer for you is that you learn the lesson of “thou shall not steal.”

    You talk a great game Puddles. Too bad you and yours can’t get away from the life to crime.

    What a monumental phony. A perfect fit for Chatty Cathy’s Kitchen.

  90. I would love to see Margaret and Helen’s take on what is happening in Congress now with the debt ceiling/Social Security/Medicare. They are the voice of reason, experience, and common sense that makes sense.

  91. we knew it had to happen…..

    (drumroll)

    Jackson Lee: Congress complicating debt ceiling because Obama is black

    http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house/171807-sheila-jackson-lee-suggests-congress-complicating-debt-ceiling-because-obama-is-black

    but ……..

    Rep. Jackson Lee sued for discrimination

    http://thehill.com/homenews/house/171585-former-staffer-sues-jackson-lee-for-discrimination

  92. Noah, any documented proof Iraq was shooting at our planes? I think that a false narrative that many believe.

    Sally, Wane claims to be a “born again” Christian in the flavor of an Evangelical Baptist. Makes me giggle when I read the bulk of his posts. Actually he IS on my prayer list, too. He thinks he has the exclusive/elusive key to the “real” faith. Comic gold, really.

    The USGS is an organization that is very beneficial. Personally, I have depended on their data for mapping the differing soil conditions in my area of work. I have found their information to be extremely accurate. So when I encountered this article based on their collected data following 9/11, I felt compelled to share. I have never seen so many deny FACTS to fit their own narrative. Politics aside, I really fear for this Islamophobic nation of ours. We are being played, big time.

  93. Sally, I could care less if you read me. Really. Your pretentious “religious” talk is so empty and disingenuous, it could be used as parody. However, when I see you post a lie here, you’ll be called. If you want to continue to lie without challenge, you’ll need to run back to Chatty Kitchen with the rest of the blowhard liars like Princess Donna.

    The decisions one reaches are a testament to the way one really believes. You and your ilk are an anathema to my faith, from your distortions, to your sophistry, to the organizations you lend support. Your faith is liberal politics.

    Let Obama save you. He’s done so well for you so far. :wink:

  94. Sally, young minds are fleeting at best. I doubt anyone has the power to capture their attention for long.

    If there was someone behind the scenes directing Reagan, then I was completely fooled, however I do not believe this to be the case. I have read several dozen of his letters, watched many of his debates and campaigns, the man was the real deal. To be an actor is not in any way a measure to a persons intelligence. All actors are not by default dumb. Reagan has my vote for the greatest President of the 20th century.

    When we first went into Iraq and defeated him, we left him with a defense force only, telling him he would never be allowed again to have enough weapons and troops to have what would be considered an invasion force. To that end Saddam agreed to have weapon inspectors come into his country who were to have unrestricted access. For a time he allowed them in and all was well. At some point he started to restrict their access and would not allow them into certain facilities. We then started flying our military craft over their southern region. He then kicked the weapon inspectors out and started shooting at our aircraft with ground to air missiles. The UN passed 2 separate resolutions insisting that Iraq comply and allow inspectors in, He again allowed inspectors in for a couple of weeks but refused again to give them access to certain facilities. Unable to do their jobs the inspectors left. The 3rd UN resolution was passed and basically stated, let us in or else. Saddam refused and continued to shoot at our planes. This went on for over 18 months.

    At some point we have to ask ourselves do we support the UN and back their resolutions, or do we do nothing and have their resolutions become meaningless. Saddam had his own generals fooled into believing there possessed weapons of mass destruction. When they were captured, a couple of them offered to show us the locations of the weapons in exchange for not being charged with war crimes, imagine their surprise. We had a man deep inside Saddam’s organization. He told us that he too thought there were WMDs based on what Saddam had said. Later we learned that Saddam kept very tight control on information and kept his Generals at arms length from each other to make sure that they could not get together to compare notes.

    Misinformation or not about the WMDs, he was in violation of the terms of his surrender, and in violation of 3 UN resolutions. At some point we had to do something to keep our credibility in the world. To fail to do so would encourage countries like North Korea to thumb their nose at us when pressured to behave.

    At the time of 9-11 I was in my 30’s

    I like Jon Stewart. I find him to be entertaining, but very bias. He has a goal in mind in everything he says and does and he does it well. I laugh but agree to disagree most of the time with his conclusions.

    As for the outcome of the vote, everything went according to the law of the land. Neither candidate had any say in how it turned out. I am not aware of any laws being broken in the voting process.

    Personally I rather enjoy a good conspiracy, keeps people thinking, and maybe some honest. I watched zeitgeist and think they made some credible points worthy of a response. Conspiracy is good for rooting out information and getting to the truth sometimes.

  95. I like the Dandy Warhols. They are a Portland band who became a cult favorite of college students ten years ago and gained a following in Europe. Zia, the female singer said after Obama won that she felt safer and more secure with Obama winning the election. She thought our world would be better after eight years of Bush.

    I wonder what she thinks now.

  96. Honolulu Sally, I’m not trying to pile on, but you made a serious charge. Do you have proof Bush supported a tax cut because he thought it would appease the voters into letting him take us to a war based on lies? Can you document the charge? If I recall, the support for invading Afghanistan was bipartisan, and even Iraq was based on the fear of weapons of mass destruction. I don’t believe the economy had much to do with either war. At the time, almost everyone, including Saddam’s generals believed they had the weapons.

    Michele Malkin documented the lies Obama told during the health insurance debate. According to a new book his mother, which he didn’t dispute, he lied about his mother’s fighting to get medical insurance help as she was dying of cancer. It was really about disability payments. In fairness, Obama’s memory may have played tricks on him, but on the face of it, he lied. Do you have similar evidence to support Bush’s lies about tax cuts?: And what about Obama’s cutting the Social Security pay roll tax. Was that just a ploy for his poll numbers, or did he honestly think it would help the economy?

    Tax revenues correlate with economic growth, not taxable income.Tax revenues are a function of two variables–the tax rate and the tax base. Since 1952, the maximum tax rate dropped from about 90% to 35%. Even so, tax revenues have risen as a constant percentage of the GDP. It is about 18% adjusted for inflation. Revenues rose because Bush’s tax cuts stimulated the economy and created new wealth. The Clinton surplus was mainly a projection, and the recession which began near the end of his administration, 9/11, and the wars combined with more Democratic and Republican spending erased the potential surplus.

    Thus, the tax cut did not create a deficit. Extra spending did.90% of the deficit resulted from over spending, and 10% from the tax cut. I cited a New York Times article discussing the fast increase of government revenue about 2004 and a 2007 article putting the unemployment rate at about 4.6%.

    Its a shame schools don’t teach economics. Most of us have little concept about how our economy works.

    I voted for Bush for two reasons, Al Gore and John Kerry. Thank God they did not enter the White House. We would have had 9/11, Gore or no Gore. Planning began during the Clinton administration. Ossama declared war against the West, and both Clinton and Bush did not fully understand the danger al quiada presented until after the attack. Remember they first attacked in 1993 during Clinton’s administration.

    An historian found and wrote a book about Ronald Reagan’s notes to himself which he used to clearify his thoughts. They show he had something upstairs. He could think on his feet. ” Years before, Dutch Reagan announced sporting events for WHO in Des Moines, I think. They lost the feed, and Reagan announced most of a baseball game from from what he made up. Reagan had a few simple ideas, which he used for change.

    A few weeks ago, my wife and I finally saw “Bed Time for Bonzo” on television.

  97. Harry Potter in 3 D was awesome. It took a little getting used to at first. And then, it was fantastic. Rather sad to know it was the last show.

    Wayne, I pray for you. Your twisting of others’ words as well as your cruel behavior reveal a mean streak that is best left alone. Don’t know if you are a religious man, but if you are, I hope He hears my prayers for you. And, adios. Your discourse is no longer read by me.

    Noah, ignore the attacks. If you let them get to you, they win.

    I am very glad to see “IMO” in your posts. I don’t agree with your opinions, but at least we can be honest that we are stating opinions, and we do seem to have different news sources.

    I first heard about Rupert Murdoch 7 years ago in a film production school. He is quite a powerhouse. Owns much of Lanai – a very sleepy little island with 2 luxury resort hotels. When Bill Gates got married in Hawaii, he had the island all zipped up. Interesting bio – reminds me of that group of rich and powerful in one of Ayn Rand’s books.

    I could never get over Ronald Reagan as president. He was an actor – a very good actor. I wonder if he was really the one in charge during his years as governor in California and as the president. If he was, he was pretty good, but I just felt like he was a pretty face being pulled by strings. (This is totally my opinion, so please take it as that.)

    The war against Saddam Hussein? I have a different base of recall on that too. After 9-11, we were told that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. After much pressure, the US and the UN went in, I believe it was 3 times, to find those (they had “proof” from satellite photos) sites, but they were never found. Then, the US said to Saddam to get out of his own country, or else; and he refused. War was declared. (I forget when, exactly, but we then got our money so we could all go out and shop, hopefully for washing machines.)

    How old were you then? The timing of this was right after 9-11, inferring that Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein were in it together – but no proof of that or any other connection other than they both hated the West.

    I can admire a person’s integrity, but if their actions result in the deaths of so many on both sides, and no exit strategy, then their integrity takes last place.

    Did you ever watch Michael Moore’s Fahrenheit 911? Chilling. Made up? Perhaps, perhaps not. To my knowledge, no one has come up with evidence to disprove Michael Moore’s pictures, details, or theory.

    Our electrician was a GW Bush supporter, and now a Tea Party man. We used to discuss the war, and his talking points went like this: “He talks to Jesus, so he is a good man. Those Iraqis moved the factories but they are still there. It wasn’t about the oil at all – you Liberals are just so stupid.”

    Today, his tune has changed. He now believes Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld were in it together to stage 911 as well as bamboozle America into attacking Iraq for oil and riches (Halliburton, i.e.) He has even asked to borrow my copy of Fahrenheit 911.

    In return, he gave me a documentary by Alex Jones, that I have yet to watch, which reminds me – I need to watch it.

    You like Fox news, I like Jon Stewart. That is a pretty even draw, but you have to admit, Jon is one of the sharpest minds in the media world. Unfortunately for conservatives, Hollywood types are mostly Liberal.

    The 2000 election being won by GW? Too many problems and conflict of interests – the last being the State of Florida with a Bush governor having the final decisive count. Then, say the Liberal bashers, if Gore were president, what would he have done after 9/11? I would reply that if Gore were president, 9/11 might not have happened.

    Conspiracy nut? Maybe. But also, maybe not. And if not, I hope the truth be hidden for a few generations at least, for time softens all blows.

    Namaste,

    Sally

  98. point made for me better than i could Anonumous. Thanks

  99. And when do you get promoted out of second grade, dinky dork?

  100. Anonymous , to come up with that opinion tells me loads about your education, or lack there of

  101. Can anyone of sound mind imagine the depths of depravity it takes to formulate an opinion of Kansas from a magical movie called “The Wizard of Oz” made in 1939, and then use that “information” as “facts” about Kansas to use in a political debate? :twisted:

    These Chatty Cathy pals that occasionally frequent here are an absolute joke and disgrace. Helpless….

    No wonder an empty suit like Obama was able to win the Presidency…

  102. Wayne, I won’t take your bet or bait because it really doesn’t matter. However, if you want discourse, then keep your cruel personal judgments to yourself or STFUAGA (the last 3 = and go away). I also do not check out links in posts of most people, unless I can trust the source.

    Well, you finally said something I’m in complete agreement with – you’re certainly not brilliant. I don’t even think bright would qualify. Dim…as in Dimocrat. Good thing you didn’t bet. You would have lost, but being a lib, you’d surely welch on the bet. No matter…

    I do not know much about Kansas – my idea of it is the home of Dorothy and her hardworking and close friends and family. The predominant “color” there is white, thus it is the opposite of Hawaii, where the predominant color is brown. People there live simpler lives, like Kauai.

    The problem is Sally, much like Auntie Nag, you don’t know much of anything but what you’re spoon fed, pretend you’re worldly went you’re a sheltered rube, and you’re a bald faced liar as evidence by that debunked horseshit about Bush sitting there after 9/11 with his thumb up his ass. Even the teacher of the classroom has said as much and I would be more than happy to prove you once again wrong about that too.

    Therefore, I’m not going anywhere and you can KMA about STFU. :wink:

    When you quit lying and masquerading as some wit, then maybe I’ll leave you be. You need to take that baloney back to Chatty Kitchen where it sells.

  103. Ronald Reagan was an actor you dork. No more, no less.

  104. Sally, was not a war based on lies IMO. When we first handed him his ass, he signed a surrender agreement and agreed to allow weapon inspectors in. For 18 months he did not allow them in, told his own generals that he had weapons of mass destruction, and tried to shoot down our own planes in southern Iraq. We had ample reasons to go to war with this guy and rightly so. He was a mad man who slaughtered innocent men, women, and children.

    As far as the election being suspect, it was not. We have always used t he electoral college to pick our president, not the popular vote. While this is uncommon to happen it has always been this way.

    As for why people voted for ol GW. Care to take a stab at how many people voted for the Messiah for no other reason that he was black? Happens all the time.

    As far as your bias for Fox news, I know it to be unfounded. I watch them from time to time, watch their shows. To everything there is a perspective. They happen to be the rare bird in the media that gives a conservative perspective. People are so used to getting 100% of their news from the Liberal media they just don’t know how to deal when it is coming from the other side. Your generalization that if you watch fox you don’t check the facts is not what I have experienced. I have many conservative friends and they more than any other people fact check what they here before speaking on it, so much so it is not even a horse race. I think it is also foolish to take one mans word that he controls the minds of millions, just saying.

    If I could wave a magic wand I would have us another Ronald Regan. The last President, or politician for that matter we have had with any sense of ethics or integrity. What I did like about Bush and loved about Regan is that they did what they thought was right. They didn’t care about poles. I may not agree with what Bush did a lot of the times but I respect the fact he was his own man and did as his conscious dictated. He wasn’t a John Carry who when you asked him what he thought said : I haven’t checked the polls today, let me get back to you.

  105. First of all, I would like to clarify that I am not brilliant, do not like conflict, and I may have to post and run because my days are quite busy recently, and scheduled to get busier soon.

    James – I still think (my opinion) that the tax cuts were done to appease the population – fool them – and lessen the outrage of going to a war based on lies. Stimulate the economy? Perhaps it did. It also created a deficit which occured when one spends far more than one takes in.

    Noah, I really hated GW while he was in office. I never felt that he was qualified, the election was suspect, he was surrounded and influenced by his daddy’s henchmen, and whenever his vision comes to mind, I see him sitting in that Florida classroom with that look of “holy shit” on his face for 7 minutes after he was told the 2nd tower had been attacked.

    My Republican friends that voted for him did so because he prayed daily, and “Jesus was his best friend.” If we were voting for the religious leader of the country (say like the Pope), then that would have been a valid reason. For the leader of the country, you would hope to have intelligence at the very least.

    I must admit that my hatred for the man clouded my judgment of him. Watching Jon Stewart imitate his “heh heh heh” made me laugh and helped lighten my gloom.

    GW was a likeable person – very sociable, rather simple. He did not take the office of the Presidency as seriously as he needed to. He was on his ranch more than in Washington. Maybe that was a good thing, or he might have given us more of his failed programs – the worst (IMO) of which was his “No Child Left Behind” educational reform act. The consequences of that act are haunting us today and far into the future with kids (and adults) that know far less than our generation.

    America was already dumbing down, and with the rise of Fox News = those who do not question the validity of what they are told. Rupert Murdoch now controls the minds of adults. (In an interview circa 1997, when asked about the effects of MTV controlling the minds of our youth, Rupert replied, “I OWN the minds of the youth.”)

    I don’t like the 2 party system either – especially the way they are today. However, it is what it is. If I had a magic wand and could have picked a past president, it would have been Ross Perot. I was much younger then, but what he said resonated with me. His bid was doomed because of the 2 party system.

    Wayne, I won’t take your bet or bait because it really doesn’t matter. However, if you want discourse, then keep your cruel personal judgments to yourself or STFUAGA (the last 3 = and go away). I also do not check out links in posts of most people, unless I can trust the source.

    I do not know much about Kansas – my idea of it is the home of Dorothy and her hardworking and close friends and family. The predominant “color” there is white, thus it is the opposite of Hawaii, where the predominant color is brown. People there live simpler lives, like Kauai.

    Hawaii is very unique in how it views race and color. We make fun of others and laugh at ourselves. It is rather shocking to those from the mainland when they first move here, for we don’t use polite terms like “oriental”, and we have a lot of chop suey, in more ways than just food. Obama would be considered “hapa”.

    It would take too long to explain the culture of race in Hawaii.

    So, I will be off to a funeral, open house, and the 3D version of the Harry Potter finale.

    Aloha, Namaste, Shalom,

    Sally

  106. Here Sally,

    As you defend Auntie Jean (Shalom, salami, baloney) and your beloved Barack, here are the headlines for today:

    Inflation at highest pace in three years…

    Manufacturing contracts…

    Consumer Confidence Lowest in Two Years…

    I’ll take it you are capable of defending these too from paradise?

  107. Sally, I changed my mind. A more mannered one Chatty Kitchen doll. Your defense of that imbecile Aunty Jean is noted. If you’re dumb enough to believe half the crap that nasty nag posts, who am I to argue? Play on Dream Weaver and bang away at Chatty Kitchen. Here, your ineptness will be challenged.

    Funny, as you were mentioning my bad behavior, I was thinking how incredibly lame and naive the islands of Hawaii must be if you and Aunty Jean representative of the population. The real population must resemble a convention of multi-level trinket marketing.

    You must be brilliant beyond comparison. In your 10 days here you know all about the history of Hawaii. Have you ever been to Kauai? Each island is very different from each other, and if you have only been here as a tourist, you will have very little concept of what life in Hawaii is.

    Actually, I have only been to three of the Hawaiian Islands – the most popular of the three. Oahu fine as long as you’re not in the cesspool of Honolulu, Maui beautiful but crowded, the Big Island my personal preference. My twenty day tourism thing was more recent as an adult. I in no way claim to be an expert on Hawaii, other than what I’ve read. But my eyes don’t deceive me, and published census stats don’t lie.

    International flavor Sally is based on more than two races or you being in the minority. But I need not visit once to know the published demographics and census information.

    Plastic and only diversified because of the military and a large Asian presence of proximity to Asia – otherwise, your precious chain of islands a beautiful, backwater Pacific Island, much of the natural beauty like its beaches – man made from the favorable climate. If Hawaii were based on simple agriculture, you would quickly revert back to the stone age, floating in canoes and writing in petraglyphs. Like I said – Samoa. You’re 2,000 miles from the nearest mainland just for starters, and people can only eat so many expensive pineapples, mangoes, and papaya and some of the worst tasting tomatoes on the planet.

    I say I know a hell of a lot more about Hawaii than you do about present day Kansas. And I’ll be more than happy to prove that if you want to play the game. We can start with the international manufacturing, and work backwards from that.

    Also, wanna place a bet that some port city like Houston that actually produces something besides a good time far more “diversified” and “international” than any Hawaiian state you wish to pick Sally?

    Say a hundred bucks right here on the board?

  108. I think Bush was unqualified for the job. He was smart enough to realize he wasn’t and surrounded himself with people smarter than himself, not a tall order.

    You are welcome to blame Bush for everything, but here we are 3 years into the Messiah’s Presidency, and at some point he needs to be held accountable for his actions. Also, Bush might have been in charge, but the Democrats were in charge of the purse strings.

    January 3rd, 2007 was the day that Barney Frank took over the House Financial Services Committee and Chris Dodd took over the Senate Banking Committee. . The economic meltdown that happened 15 months later was in what part of the economy? Banking and Financial Services. Bush asked Congress 17 times to stop Fannie & Freddie – starting in 2001, because it was financially risky for the U.S. economy. Obama took the 3rd largest pay-off from Freddy and Fannie. Obama and the Democrats fought against reform of Fannie and Freddie. While it is nice and convenient to try and blame Bush for everything, we had a Democrat controlled congress that held all the money.

    As for taking sides, we have to right now. Democrats are not known for reigning in spending, and we have to reign in spending. My hopes are to one day have a viable 3rd party to break up this good-ol-boys club. We have to clean house and make it so the congress is no longer the place where people go to become millionaires.

  109. Yes, Bush gave billions to banks, and Obama approved. Our leaders were paniced at the time because they were afraid the fabric of our economy was within hours of ripping to shreds. It is a bad idea to make big decisions when you are afraid.

    I didn’t like Bush as president, and I don’t like Obama’s performance either. Given the past couple of years, Bush looks less bad to me than he did.

  110. Honolullu Sally, I like you for several reasons, not the least of which is your calling my skin armadillo like. You warned me of the circling wolves when I first arrived, You and Werner hoped I’d stay because you said the site needed people like me.

    Last year, the name calling was so bad, that someone claiming to be Richard (?) the moderator wrote that the name callers, not I were in fact the trolls. Jean also organized an election to vote me off the site. NOP voted that I should stay. Some of the regulars were unhappy.

    Read my exchange with NOP about taxes. She couldn’t prove her case, at least not yet, because she was arguing against history and rules of economics. The tax cut was intended to stimulate the economy not cater to the masses.

    Our son works in Silicon Valley. Many computer people were training to sell real estate because of hard times, and all our son could find was temp work. Then, came the tax cut. The man who hired him told him to thank the tax cut.

    Yes, economies are cyclical, but this recession is more than that. It is in part the result of a burst real estate bubble created in large part by Democrats, including the president. Republicans share the blame too.

  111. Noah,

    I recall GW Bush’s $600 check to everyone. I thought it was fool’s money and another way to deflect criticism about the war that he put us into. He began the snowball of debt that is now Obama’s elephant in the room.

    I do believe, throughout history, when wars are waged, taxes are raised, and for good reason. To pay for the expenses of war. To lower the taxes, spend $1 billion per week on a war, and then also give us checks to go buy washing machines was irresponsible and not done out of love.

    The worse possible thing that could happen to GW Bush was the collapse of the markets in September 2008, while he was still in office. If only it could have been delayed 2 months, he could be disassociated with the crashing economy that he played a very big part in.

    GW also gave the banks billions of dollars – without accountability, just before he left office.

    In this economic disaster that we live in, don’t you think we need solutions instead of party politics and finger pointing?

    Do you ever donate to the political parties? I donate to both – $5 to the Republicans (and I don’t put a stamp on the return envelope) and $50 to the Democrats (with a stamp). I get surveys from both of them. The surveys ask my opinion about the other party, which I think is rather stupid. More than half of the Democrat survey also asks what I would rank of highest importance on many of the issues of the day, and to rank the perfomance of the President. The Republican survey just wants to know if I agree with them that President Obama is taking the country down the path of destruction and if I agree with them that all the other Democrats in office are failing America. Lots of yes, no questions.

    I think party politics create divides that inhibit and/or prevent solutions. If I judged parties based on their surveys, I would say the Republican party likes to blame, twist, and get agreement. The Democrat party likes to get a grasp on what are the main issues, rank the President on issues, and slam dunk a win.

    I am guessing you liked GW Bush as President. I disliked him as much as you dislike President Obama.

    I probably won’t have the time to look over your 30+ broken promises, but I will say that something President Obama brought back to America was respect on the international stage. GW was a rich man’s son but behaved like a folksy good ole boy with world leaders. Obama was raised by middle class grandparents but behaves with much more class than Bush ever did.

    Helen once said, “We survived Bush, you’ll survive Obama.”

    Amen to that. Helen is a wise woman.

    Namaste,

    Sally

  112. Sally, you might recall that when it came time to help the economy, Bush, as Republican, that you know, only loves the corporations, chose to write checks to the American people, because he felt that they knew better than anyone else how to help themselves. Obama, the Democrat, man of the people, of the little guy, when it came time to help the economy, he gave it to big corporations. IS that Irony?

  113. NOP, once again you make, really really odd statements…with no substance or insight of any kind so someone other than yourself knows what your talking about. You should learn kiddo no one can read your mind. Try to formulate a complete thought, even if it takes a few days to do so, and try your post again.

  114. For the list of promises and all the facts to back it up go to http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/rulings/promise-broken/?page=1. Get a cup of coffee, some provisions and get comfy, it is a long long list of broken promises.

  115. Man. when Fox tells you it is salami and you can’t even smell sh*t, you’re beyond reason. Be back in another forth night. Maybe Helen will grace us by then.

  116. Anonymous, sorry to make a fool of you again, those 30+ promises are promises he made that he never attempted to make come to pass. Foot, meet mouth.

  117. Wayne,

    You do seem to have a problem and I really hope you only act this way in the anonymity of the internet and behave more decently in person.

    You must be brilliant beyond comparison. In your 10 days here you know all about the history of Hawaii. Have you ever been to Kauai? Each island is very different from each other, and if you have only been here as a tourist, you will have very little concept of what life in Hawaii is.

    So you saw 2 Blacks and no Spanish speaking Hispanics. Even if we don’t have as many of those 2 cultures here as in Houston (?), we are still a very diversified State. We have a huge military presence – but it isn’t just because of the kindness of the federal government. It is because of the proximity of the islands to anywhere in the Pacific – we are in a very strategic location. Tourism is huge here, and, in spite of all the buildings and plastic leis and skirts, it is still beautiful here. Would we be a vast wasteland without the two? I think not. Prior to, we were actually an agriculture based economy – but then, you would know that.

    Me, personally, I love the tourists. I am grateful for the military. Those people you call locals here? That is where the diversity is, or is it just because they all look brown to you that they are one race?

    Being haole here is different. It isn’t quite like being Black or Hispanic on the mainland (Stateside as the military might say), but something like it. Auntie Jean who you seem to despise and have “caught” is one haole lady that has a wealth of friendships and stories to listen to, if you feel so inclined. She is a tutu, an aunty. You earn that status.

    Noah, a while ago, I looked over your 30+ broken promises, and wondered where you got the list. I do believe I listened to most of Obama’s campaign speeches and some of the items on the list did not make it to the top of what I remember.

    So, being a Liberal, and a “Chatty Kitchen” regular, I must say I don’t think he can walk on water.

    I also believe that being the President of the United States is the most difficult and demanding job on the planet. IF he did accomplish all that was promised in a 2 1/2 year time frame, he should be walking on water, and your Messiah moniker for him would be correct.

    Bush and his tax cut after declaring war was appeasement for the masses, IMO. Rich people loved it and benefited the most from it. Real estate rocketed. Middle class people were living like money was never ending and we got addicted to name brand expense and things we didn’t really need. It was like a false sense of prosperity – too much too fast.

    As with anything that goes up real fast, there is a correction, and combined with low tax rates, aging baby boomers, greedy and unscrupulous practices by financial institutions, export/import imbalances, a watered down dollar and a dumbed down educational system, we are facing the worst of times.

    James might be in the best shape of all of us to weather it out.

    Sorry for such a long post. Master Hong’s herbal patches on my back have energized me for a bit. I am off to an investment meeting now.

    Aloha from my 78º F parlor,

    Sally

  118. Poolman….WTF…..are you watching Obermann again…..wipe the spit off of you and the think for once…..

  119. anonymous – asshat

    nop…defend the tax cheating people Obama has working for him….

  120. Wane, you are definitely the master baiter. Almost as sick slick as your sock puppet Tex. Whose hand is up whose? Oh, never mind.

    I’m not going to fall for your half truths, b, cos it wouldn’t be prudent…could get ugly. And that would give you the advantage. :cool:

  121. Drop the frigging talking points. If those “30+ promises” hadn’t been obstructed by the Repuglicans, you’d be b*tching about them being kept. You aren’t here for dialogue, a$$h0le.

    Excellent points Noah. Keep the truth posting! :wink:

    This nutless, genuflecting M&H pussy who has no name, forgets for a year Mullah Obama had a super majority in Congress and wasted his time pushing through a healthcare plan nobody understood and now nobody wants, a trillion dollar public giveaway that didn’t work, and after campaigning against the Bush wars and promising to close GITMO, doubled down on Bush Doctrine and left GITMO as is. The mendacity and selective memory of these feckless progressives is stunning concerning Obama and recent history.

    He gave us “reinvestment” – Failure
    He gave us “Obamacare” – Major Failure
    He promised 8.0% unemployment and no more – Massive Failure
    He promised the half the deficit, then tripled it – Epic Failure; That’s why we are to the fiduciary point we are now and now these parasites are trying to deny it.
    He promised to fight the “right war”, then lost it while the death toll in Afghanistan rose 500% – Abject failure.

    All under a Dim Congress that didn’t require one Republican vote to pass anything it wanted.

    You hitched your rope to a slug Anonymous. Gird your loins and act like a man – even if you’re an M&H woman, man will still do. :smile:

  122. Pardon the language, ladies.

  123. Jeebus cribs, Noah. Drop the frigging talking points. If those “30+ promises” hadn’t been obstructed by the Repuglicans, you’d be b*tching about them being kept. You aren’t here for dialogue, a$$h0le.

  124. We have another disaster besides the flood. An epic drought is spreading through the South and north into Kansas. We now have an excessive heat warning through Wednesday. The South has endured such heat for the better part of a month.

    The Missouri River fell three inches in Omaha today, but seventy people were suddenly evacuated because ground water surged to the surface.

  125. Puddles,

    Now that is an ignorant statement. Not surprisingly, however. I guess from a mainlander’s POV, having just done the tourist thing and without a knowledge of the politics or history behind this island nation, it is hard to get a sense of the “real” Hawaii.

    You can’t afford to make a mortgage payment in 2 1/2 years and walked sponge. You are an expert and textbook case of ignorance and another in a long list of M&H uneducated morons. Don’t give me your crap about knowing this and knowing that.

    You don’t even know enough to know that one has to pay small business taxes which you didn’t do for seven years, you’re a frickin troofer, and one of the weirdest people on the planet. Your idea of health care is for your preacher man to pray for your wife’s spine and scold her for “not stepping out.”. Take a hike dimwit over to Chatty Kitchen, where you are comfortable playing beta male.

    P.S. I’m perfectly aware of the history of Hawaii. It’s also 2,000 miles from the nearest piece of land. I’m also perfectly aware it would be nothing without tourism and Pearl Harbor. Period. Ever taken a good look at Samoa? Third world…that’s Hawaii without jet aircraft and large gray ships.

  126. Puddles,

    Now that is an ignorant statement. Not surprisingly, however. I guess from a mainlander’s POV, having just done the tourist thing and without a knowledge of the politics or history behind this island nation, it is hard to get a sense of the “real” Hawaii.

    You can’t afford to make a mortgage payment in 2 1/2 years and walked sponge. You are an expert and textbook case of ignorance and another in a long list of M&H uneducated morons. Don’t give me your crap about knowing this and knowing that.

    You don’t even know enough to know that one has to pay small business taxes which you didn’t do for seven years, you’re a frickin troofer, and one of the weirdest people on the planet. Your idea of health care is for your preacher man to pray for your wife’s spine and scold her for “not stepping out.”. Take a hike dimwit over to Chatty Kitchen, where you are comfortable playing beta male.

    P.S. I’m perfectly aware of the history of Hawaii. It’s also 2,000 miles from the nearest piece of land. I’m also perfectly aware it would be nothing without tourism and Pearl Harbor. Period. Ever taken a good look at Samoa? Third world…that’s Hawaii without jet aircraft and large gray ships.

  127. Poolman, when I was stationed at Ellsworth AFB, South Dakota some cowboys beat up an airman. He called the base for help, and three barracks of medics went to his aid. They did a lot of damage and helped spark a movement to get rid of the base.

    The government paid everyone in two dollar bills, and that ended the campaign to shut Ellsworth.

  128. Sometimes raising taxes is necessary, but not during a recession with high unemployment. Most Republicans and some Democrats know this is not the time to take money from people who create jobs by hiring others or by spending more discressionary income. Such taxes create little wealth. They redistribute wealth others have created.

    Taxes are often used to discourage behavior like smoking. In this case, higher taxes discourage spending and job creation. Companies like Exxon-Mobile don’t pay taxes. Their customers do. For example, an Australian airliner is raising the price of tickets to compensate for a new energy tax.

    As I’ve written before, people like Rupert Murdoch and George Soros are immune to the proposed tax increase. They have shelters and don’t rely on wages as most of the potential subjects of a tax increase do. Instead of setting the limit at $200,000 or $250,000, charge a tax on something like $500,000 million. Maybe labor unions should pay more taxes or so called appolitical organizations which support one party or another.Even then if the government raised the rates to 100% on rich people, it would not be enough to pay for the deficite.

    ” Tell it to the troops gentlemen! Tell it to the elderly! Tell it to the sick! ” is demagogery. Even if the government defaults, it will earn enough in August to pay our creditors, the military, and Social Security.If we don’t stop spending so much money, there won’t be enough left over for those people. Social Security is a trust fund, so it must be near the head of the line.

    It is also possible the fourteenth amendment provides for paying our debts, default or no default. I hope it doesn’t come to default, but Obama is trying to maneuver the Republicans into sharing part of the responsibility for a tax increase. He knows the Tea Party would have a fit. If he can get an agreement with few spending cuts and higher taxes, which will last beyond the elections, he knows he has a chance at winning a second term and winning a majority in Congress.

    We are in such trouble, I think Republicans successfully calling Obama’s bluff is the only chance we have. This dispute equivalent to the Cuban missile crisis.

  129. poolman, yes you do, you have a country to run into the ground.

    No One’s Puppet you side has no room to talk about the vets and elderly. Check the 30+ broken promises to these very groups by your Messiah. Also, check my video linked above, we could take 100% of the profits from all the people you hate and it still would not pay for the Messiah’s attempts to turn this into a socialist nation.

  130. But this comment can not go unchallenged about plastic Hawaii – of which all of the islands which would be a vast wasteland without either military or tourism, unless you’re into coconuts, coffee, pineapple, or papaya

    Now that is an ignorant statement. Not surprisingly, however. I guess from a mainlander’s POV, having just done the tourist thing and without a knowledge of the politics or history behind this island nation, it is hard to get a sense of the “real” Hawaii. Obviously today tourism is important to the economy, but since it was colonized, the beauty and freedom of that place has slowly diminished. Oh, and the military… Who benefits more from that occupation/relationship?

    It is so hard to load and comment on this looooonngg thread. So, here’s my hit and run, Noah. Maybe many of the “libs” have more important things to do.

  131. Defending the tax cut, of the likest of Rupert Murdoch and Exxon-Mobile, is the highest purpose of Congressional Republicans, and their supporters here are willing to pretend that in anyway affects their own tax cut. Tell it to the troops gentlemen! Tell it to the elderly! Tell it to the sick!

  132. That post was really insulting Sally. I can assure you Kansas City is far, far more diversified than Hawaii.

    But first, let’s get something straight. Auntie Jean may seem really smart to you and the insipid libs with her cut and paste persona, but to me, she’s a blowhard and a pretentious buffoon. Of all the people on this board, lovely Auntie Jean is the very one I’ve caught in the greatest number of lies, exaggerations, and flat out propaganda posing as fact. I’ve noted that in this very thread.

    But this comment can not go unchallenged about plastic Hawaii – of which all of the islands which would be a vast wasteland without either military or tourism, unless you’re into coconuts, coffee, pineapple, or papaya.

    Living on Kauai is different from living in Kansas and being white. For her to embrace her life there and be part of the culture on that island speaks volumes about the kind of person she is.[Kauai is like the Kansas of the islands - small town kind of mentality (hard to get accepted) but like polar opposites in predudices.]

    Sally, I just got back from a 10 day vacation on Maui and the Big Island. Do you know how many blacks I saw on my 10 day trip? Two. Know how many Hispanic faces speaking Spanglish? None. Two black faces and we were all over those islands. If it wasn’t for the naval base, that’s about how many black faces you too would see in Honolulu.

    Here’s a typical Hawaiian Island makeup – tourists Asian, European and American White, served by locals who work two and three jobs to make ends meet, or the very rich, or retirees living frugally.

    I don’t want to hear this crap anymore about “diversified” libbie land and its great tolerance. It’s one of the biggest lies going. You want to know a real “diversified” international town? Houston. Indians, Pakistanis, Muslims, Asians, large numbers of Mexicans and a million blacks….

    Not Hawaii – Houston.

    And Houston is not liberal mecca. So I guess my wife embracing Houston makes her a very, very special person of tremendous character. :roll:

  133. Noah,

    Fair enough.

    However, on this blog site, no one writes the rules (except for Matthew who has very few of them). So, if some people like to zing in and out and you don’t like it, that’s what they do. Some people don’t like what you say or how you say it, and that’s what you do.

    James and his armadillo skin has gained more response towards discussion than attack towards one because of their attack upon another.

    Even though my past prejudices towards the Pfessor have made me very wary of his words, I quote “I think we have lost a tremendous amount by taking the approach of, “You liberals – blah, blah, insult, insult” and the same by the other side”. These are wise words. We have lost the opportunity to connect as decent human beings.

    Take Auntie Jean, for example. She makes me laugh because of her wisdom and class. The insults are piled on after she makes one of her posts, and she just kind of glides along. Being a haole (white), and living on Kauai is different from living in Kansas and being white. For her to embrace her life there and be part of the culture on that island speaks volumes about the kind of person she is. She is smarter than most, and she has a heart of gold. [Kauai is like the Kansas of the islands - small town kind of mentality (hard to get accepted) but like polar opposites in predudices.]

    Many of the other side will not get to know her as a person. I am richer knowing her.

    You probably don’t want to know her, and maybe she doesn’t want to know you.

    However, off topic or not, rather than losing a “tremendous amount”, grow a skin like James, but lose the generalities and insults. Accept that we all have our own “truths” and someone’s truth is another person’s trash.

    Aloha, Namaste, and Shalom (and I am now off to Master Hong’s summer immunization event),

    Sally

  134. James Wayne, I agree to a point, but I refuse to let myself consider people who I believe to be misguided to be enemies.

    I hope things do not have to get much worse before you see that is exactly what we have to do. To be too Liberal, or Conservative, is a bad thing imo. Somehow over the years these two have been a balancing force and have been good for each other. Now we have swung so far left that we are in the middle of the greatest economic crisis our country has ever faced, ever. Having a child now, I think more so because I had a daughter, the first girl to be born in my family in 30 years, intensifies this for me. I have a desire, that I cannot find the words to properly articulate, to give her the best possible future I can give her. The future we are currently handing them now is one I cannot live with. We have an awful mess to clean up. We get one trip in this life and we owe it to our kids to make it the best possible place we can for them. That said we don’t have time to wait, to play nice, to haggle and compromise. Things have gone too far now to sit on the sidelines, or somewhere in the middle playing Switzerland.

  135. Sally has my respect Wayne, agree 100% Some Messiah he turned out to be.

  136. No One’s Puppet, this is what is the defining difference between us. I will gladly pay 20% interest or any other price if it means I am paying my own way here and now. I have a 2 month old that gets me up 3 and 4 times a night that is my primary concern. How you can get through the day knowing you are making life harder on our children by passing down to them our burdens is beyond me. The burdens of morality I guess.

    As for your little mindless rant on James, I am amazed how you and yours vilify those who have found the American Dream, like it is a crime. I suggest you educate yourself a little with that video I posted before continuing to make a fol of yourself. We cannot tax our way out of this problem. Not maybe, we cannot, period. It is an impossibility. Your kind needs to wake up to the reality we have over extended ourselves and allowed Socialism to creep into our lives and our country and it till be the end of us if we don’t act fast. Capitalism and Socialism cannot coexist in the same house.

    Wayne, you are right on all counts. You can pretend you are somewhere in the middle, but there are clearly two sides here. Pay your own way, or make our kids pay long after we are gone. My ethics will not allow for the latter, and I will defend it to my dieing breath if need be. There is no surrender, nothing short of total victory is acceptable. I am not interested in taking compromise. Liberals have lost their minds. To be where we are at today, still holding onto the fantasy that it will all just magically work out with the consequences we face is all the proof I need that these people are not in a little place I like to call reality. Since as Wayne stated, legality forced me to temper my natural instincts, I have no choice but to know my foe, understand them, and deal with them within the confines of the law.

  137. Noah, I wouldn’t sweat this hit and run stuff. Sally isn’t one, but most of the liberals that post here are blatant cowards. Look how they ran off when facts and issues started being discussed. The chattering clan ran. No surprise, as they were getting hammered. There is no way in hell these “progressives” can defend their 2008 positions now, so they’ve reverted back to Bushisms – and even that isn’t working. So they’re left with disappearing and lighting poo on the porch, then running.

    Obama and his buffoons are epic failures in every capacity. Senator Marco Rubio is right. There is not one facet of America that is not now worse off under Obama after three years.

    Consider these drive-by posts a sign of desperation. Obama is toast, and with their entire self-worth invested in this monumental sham, these “progressives” aren’t dealing well with Zero’s obvious ineptness.

    Remember, politics is the liberal religion. Can you imagine the depression realizing your little Obama god is a farce and a joke? Their world has crumbled. Too bad. :grin:

  138. Wayne, I agree to a point, but I refuse to let myself consider people who I believe to be misguided to be enemies. They think the same of me.

    I was bitter and angry when I came home and watched what similar people did to the returning troops, but even more importantly how they created an atmosphere which led us to abandon the South Vietnamese who trusted us. They indirectly killed many people.

    I have to admit when I read how John Murtha described the Democratic strategy to let the Iraq war progress without the surge and called it the “slow bleed,” I wished him dead. I didn’t like myself that day.

  139. PFesser, with respect, the Liberals on this board have hundreds of posts to tell us who and what they are. You may see it as pigeonholing, I however think we have a plethora of evidence to back up everything I have stated and can say with some certainty that for the most part it is accurate. It would take to long to paint each one 100% accurate, but I bet I am better than 75% right on all of them. I would prefer to leave generalizations out of it but as they tend to hit and run, post and not respond, I am left with no other option than to lump them into one pot. Should one of them step up I would be happy to be directly engaged with them and their thoughts.

  140. Honolulu Sally, I am afraid I will stick with my original position. The last several weeks is full of the Liberals on this board doing hit and run posts none standing their ground, none defending what they believe in any way. One pointless attack after another without merit. Check for NOP posts for prime examples.

    As for not joining in yes it is your choice. However I am very suspect, and rightly so, of those who only chime in to personally attack, and offer nothing to contribute to further the discussion. To those my generalization is absolutely proven by what and when they post. They can post when it is in their favor to do so, but never when confronted with the truth. The most accurate portrayal f a bully and coward I have ever seen.

    You have said nothing but your opinion, though none of it on topic. I see no possible way to take anything you said as an insult. I appreciate opposing points of view, that is why I am here. Do not mistake my aggressiveness to those who chose to argue unfairly or try to degenerate the topic with their pettiness as a sign that I am intolerant or that you should have to apologize for how you feel. I just chose to call people as I see it, rather than be gracious and let them slide, the latter serving no purpose IMO.

  141. Interesting PFessor. I should read that book.

    “The Law” makes me think of what happened after the Menshevic revolution when the Bolshevics took over. They expropriated the land because is owners were members of the proletariat class and unworthy thieves. The “People” operating Soviet land destroyed wealth and food production.

    My wife and I are relatively poor, compared to some of our neighbors who own much more land than we. My wife and I also live poor and we aren’t the only ones. Our Escort and Taurus are 1999 models, and we have a 1991 Festiva, for example. In 1991, we had a negative net worth.

    We all blend in, and most people don’t know how comfortable we are. Not every big landowner is rich. Some are “land poor.” A retired farmer looks like a half witted geezer in his ragged bib overhalls, but he bought a lot of Warren Buffet’s Berkshire Hathaway stock when it was first issued because Warren lives in Omaha. He donates a lot of money to schools, for scholarships and anything else that suits his fancy.

    His home town had no place to hang out, so he built a restaurant and hired locals to run it as they rented to own.

  142. Our parents taught us how to survive the Depression, and my wife and I managed through the farm crisis when many didn’t, so NOP is right not to worry too much about my wife and me. We are survival prone, we know how to live on very little.

    I do worry about many other people. They are like sheep to the slaughter without a clue of what could happen with a default or a path to Greece.

  143. James –

    Although all my life my father told me that it is honorable to work hard and become rich, I have always been aware of class envy – but I have never realized that people really would just come out and admit it without the slightest tinge of shame – in fact, in effect wearing it as some kind of badge of honor.

    A little reading reveals that this has always been the case though – those who have worked and happen to have a little bit have always been the objects of envy by those who have not. I finished Bastiat’s The Law a couple of months ago. Although it was published in 1850 it could have been based on what we see here at M&H’s. Even then he talks about the danger of allowing those who have not worked and had success to subvert the government (which is, of course, nothing but raw power) in order to take by force the things earned by the producers and give it to them, the nonproducers.

    Ah, as he might say, plus ça change plus c’est la même chose.

  144. Noah, if the country defaults, my guess is you will pay 16-18% interest on your business loan.

    Smoke blowing Noah. Hyperinflation is here due to Obama and interest rates are artificially low not to due to threat of default but our burgeoning deficit and printing funny money, weakening the dollar. NOP demonstrates the same magnitude of mendacity and hypocrisy as her messiah Comedian-in-Chief.

    The unmitigated gall of the man now trying to blame others for his egregious Keynesian mistakes should be parody and is to those with an ounce of sense.

    ——–

    Pfesser, I wish your reality were true, but let’s face it. Most of these liberal bums and sponges on this blog trashed, lied, made insidious accusations about George Bush for eight years and continue to do so. Many aided and abetted our enemies during war. They deserve no respect and will get none. I know you don’t like it, but I consider many of them the enemy. If legality allowed, guaranteed I would do something about that.

    You simply can’t straddle the fence anymore and believe you can choose the cafeteria style fiduciary plan. There are two political worlds – and they are diametrically opposed. In its simplest form, you either believe government knows best or the citizenry know best.

    And the only question you really have to ask yourself is who does it better? Public government or private enterprise?

    Our federal government was intended to be very limited in nature by the Constitution. It has become anything but….anybody that believes otherwise is a moron.

    An example. Originally Medicare was estimated to be about 2.5% of the federal budget – that was the original intent. It now accounts for more than a quarter of our budget.

  145. I am not protecting anyone NOP,. How could I? I am just an Iowa farmer. The Bush tax cut was not a welfare program for the rich. It was a plan to revive the economy, and it worked. I have cited New York Times articles to prove it. A 4.6% unemployment rate in 2007 is better than anything we have seen since Obama became president. The tax cuts circulated more money through the economy which fueled spending and hiring. Obama’s stimulus law did the opposite.

    My understanding of the Obama tax increase is it applies to individuals earning more than $200,000 or $250,000. Many of those folks are small business people who employ workers. The true rich like Bill Gates or Warren Buffet live on wealth they have already created. Better than taxing wages, the government should tax capital gains or stored wealth.

    Yes, my wife and I are millionaires as are some of our neighbors, and we are proud of it. We endured a lot and were lucky to get where we are. However our wealth is in land, not cash. We are not “one of them” whoever that is.

    I agree a default could be a calamity, but if we continue our present course a crash is inevitable.

  146. Noah, if the country defaults, my guess is you will pay 16-18% interest on your business loan. Hope you like it, because loan money is going to be scarce and you will have to compete with the government for the little that will be available. James is still protecting millionaires and billionaires from giving up that welfare program George W initiated for them, but then James told us, he is one of them. Guess that is why, I can’t work up as much worry for him, as I do for others

  147. Honolulu Sally –

    I think we miss a lot by pigeonholing others – and pigeonholing ourselves. Everybody is complex; some have more liberal tendencies, some more conservative, but find the right stressor and anybody will express beliefs that are more like the “other” side.

    I think we have lost a tremendous amount by taking the approach of, “You liberals – blah, blah, insult, insult” and the same by the other side. First of all, how did it become the standard that these two positions represent everybody anyway? There are hundreds of positions and these are only two. I personally like the libertarian POV a lot.

    re: Ayn Rand: she never advocated not helping your neighbors. She was against having your government take your money (that you earned) by force and then give it to others of THEIR choosing, with no consideration of where YOU wanted it to go.

  148. Aloha Noah,

    Speaking for Liberals, we didn’t abandon our hosts. That’s the kind of generalization that condemns without merit.

    As far as truths and facts, as a Liberal, I tend to call them opinions and question the source of the facts. Each person has their own circle of experts, each expert has their own slant, each slant can be interpreted in different ways.

    The graciousness or lack of concern regarding censorship from our hosts allows for all discourse, and if you want to talk amongst yourselves and others of opposing thoughts do not join in, it is our own choice.

    Some people like to argue and fight more than others. I tend to enjoy laughing and being with friends more, and I avoid arguments if they become insulting and to no productive end.

    Your take on economic issues are different from mine. Your take on our President is different from mine.

    I know you are very worried about the future, especially for your young family. I worry about the future also.

    The question I ask myself is what am I going to do about it. The Liberal in me also asks what I can do to help others.

    To Ayn Rand fans, that is a big no no. With my neighbors and friends, it is a good thing.

    Please do not take this as an insult for it is not meant as one.

    Namaste,

    Sally

  149. I vote they do what they can to get an agreement without raising taxes. Even letting Obama sign a bill raising the debt limit will do some good if it saves us from default, and it will undeniably put his name on the deficite. Default will be bad, and it will take us into a deep recession.

    The Obama administration is beleagered. You can see it in their faces and their actions. Obama’s script is the same as Clinton-Gingrich’s in 1995, and he thinks if the worst happens, public opinion will take him to a second term and decimate the Republicans. Ir Republicans cave, Obama wins because Republicans will share the credit for more spending and higher taxes. Desperation can make people do dangerous things, and both sides may lose the game of chicken.

    This is the flood talking and my Air Force past, so I may not be rational. For those reasons, I also vote they hold their ground, even it means driving us into a depression. This has to stop, and now is as good a time as any to do it.

    Alaskapi, if you are out there and read this, Time Magazine has an article about genetically altered fish.

  150. Alrighty, hit and runs aside, the Liberals have abandoned their hosts (as Liberals do when faced with truth and facts) and turned the blog over to us it seems. So I guess we should talk among ourselves. With our country on the verge of default, do you guys thing the Republicans should give in and compromise or do we hold our ground?

    Personally I vote for them to hold their ground. We opposed Messiah care not because we don’t believe there needs to be reform, but because we knew doing so would bankrupt our nation. I think giving in at all is just going to cause us to have a long, slow death. We need to cut back spending to maintainable levels, decide what programs we must keep then find a way to pay for them before we implement them. If we are to leave our children a future that anyone would want to live in, we have to stop shouldering them with our burdens and pay our own way now. In my humble opinion.

  151. Miltonwolf.com cites Germany as the miracle Obama will not see. No two recessions are the same, but while we flounder in the worst recovery since the Great Depression, Germany’s employment rate has returned to pre -recession rates. Germany is one country which may save Europe, but as long as the Democrats retain power in the United States, our chances are less good.

    Our flood is another example of government tampering. The dams were built for flood control, but environmental, tourist, and shipping interests forced the Corps to change procedures. They said the manual doesn’t even allow for the two nuclear power plants which the flood affects.

  152. Here it comes. Sadly we told you Libs and you wouldn’t listen. Now we are all going to have to pay the price for your arrogance/ignorance.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/13/moodys-considers-downgrading-us-credit-rating-amid-stalemate-over-debt-limit/?ncid=webmail1

  153. We have cake in our freezer, and “they” can’t have it.

  154. Inevitable Pfesser – unless we reduce the debt quickly. And that won’t happen unless entitlements are addressed. I don’t see anybody but Paul Ryan even speaking about entitlements – and he was immediately discounted and/or demonized when he tried.

    The U.S. market will crash when (1) We lose our AAA Debt rating or (2) The dollar is no longer considered the global money of choice. Oil will skyrocket and the market will tumble in conjunction. However, I still think the Euro is in even worse shape. They may tumble together.

    Obama now trying to play fiduciary moderate is such a joke, that hypocrisy isn’t a strong enough descriptor. The libs wanted hope and change – hoax and chains would be more like it. Justice says many of them will be the first hurt, though. When government crumbles, they’ll have no where to turn. I see little hope for soft landing for all but a few.

    Let them eat cake. :wink: They’ve earned it.

  155. I have been watching Europe, though I haven’t read the book.

    I don’t think America is next because our economy is stronger,and it is in too many countries’ interest for us to survive in our current form. We have more safeguards to slow or minimize a crash.

    Europe is like a crew of mountain climbers roped together as one or two slip. The rest hold them until they can regain their hold on the mountain. If more, like Italy or Portugal also slip, they will pull the rest over the cliff, and that might include us. It looks like a perfect storm ahead.

    If we enter a thirties crash as, we might need a war as in WW11 to pull us out of it. I also believe we will face a more violent time than in the thirties when Communists and Socialists plotted revolutions and Wall Street business men actually attempted a coup against the president. Farmers also attempted to lynch judges several times.

    I we survive whole, it will be because Obama and the Democrats lose the next election, and even then the outcome will be doubtful.

  156. OT –

    Has anybody been following the meltdown in Europe? I just finished Debts, Deficits and the Demise of the American Economy. The author, Tanous, has predicted this perfectly and the dominoes are beginning to fall. It looks like Italy is in a footrace with Greece to default first. After that is in full sway, America is next – not only crippled, but nearly mortally wounded by its debt service. Scary doesn’t begin to describe it. I am no alarmist, but I fear we are facing another 30s era crash, and almost nobody gets that it is happening.

    Thoughts?

  157. Noah:

    I don’t get it. Why do you feel compelled to answer someone who is obviously baiting you. It might be better to just let it pass.

  158. The last comment was mine.

  159. Otto katz makes assumptions, so I will too. He knows little about basic economics.

    The Corps of Engineers predicts the Missouri River will be within its banks by late September of October. Trapped flood water will remain much longer.

  160. Otto katz makes assumptions, so I will too. He knows little about basic economics.

    The Corps of Engineers predicts the Missouri River will be within its banks by late September of October. Trapped flood water will remain much longer.

  161. What is it with these hit and run Liberals. Will someone lend these guys a set of nuts to pass among themselves?

  162. otto katz That is a 650-800 catering bill there my friend not to mention everyone getting 2 paid hours for getting out early and an extended lunch. How is that not good in your eyes?

  163. Otto Katz = asshat
    there’s a lot of companies out there that will buy pizzas or subs for there workers if they had a good week…….are you one of those people that stick there hand out and want something for doing nothing…..

  164. “1 buffet lunch , short work day, on me paid 1 per month.”

    Wow. So generous. A dime an hour per month you give them lunch. A short work day, they get to leave at 4.45 instead of 5?
    So freaking generous.

  165. Ok I can see I am probably not going to get a response, just another hit and run with no thought behind it. Are there any Liberals able to articulate their point of view and debate it? That said.

    Anonymous , your posts tells me two things. #1 you are not and have not been a business owner outside a lemon-aid stand. Second you do not think things through when making decisions, a common trait with Liberals. Do what feels good, consequences be dammed.

    First off I will answer your little troll and say I treat my employees very well. 1 buffet lunch , short work day, on me paid 1 per month. I have taken a major pay cut as owner so that I did not have to lay any employees off.

    Now to your short sightedness. When I described what I do to decide if I am going to hire might sound heartless to you, but it is just the opposite. You and your kind are like hapless kids who we business owners have to look out for, in spite of yourselves. I take the time to make these decisions for the welfare of my business, which in turn is for the welfare of my employees. I feel I have a responsibility to those I employee to give them as much job security as possible so they can dependably take care of their families. To that end I have to hire and take care of the companies bottom line in a responsible way. If I did things by Liberal thinking, and hired when it made me feel good, I would not be in business very long and a lot of people would be out of work.

    As far as this link you made. All he did was present how business works in the real world, ie supply and demand, then said this proves his point. The point is he made no point. He plays with semantic points, shuffles the cards a little, then tries to say he proved something. Not sure why you linked this as it really only shows that you didn’t have a point so borrowed from someone else.

  166. PFessor, it is 72 with a shower. We have had an inch of rain, mostly from a borderline severe thunderstorm this morning. Parts of northeast Nebraska and southeast South Dakota had radar estimated 4 to 5 inches of rain. It is our first good rain of the month.

    The rain will bring the river up, but probably not as high as it was two weeks ago. ( Two weeks ago, Omaha’s river water measured about 36 feet. Now it is about 34.8 feet and may reach 35 feet or so before falling slightly again. Flood stage at Omaha is about 29 feet.) However, the Corps of Engineers unexpectedly announced they are reducing the water release from 160,000 cfs to 155,000 by August 1 and down to 150,000 later. That will help. The flood has stabilized and water on our flooded land has dropped about a foot since last week. Water across the road is retreating. Surviving levies are holding for now.

    That heat should be here by Friday and it may be hot and dry for the next two weeks at least. Evaporation, as you guess will remove some of the flood water. Crops will be using a lot of water, and that will help slow the rise of ground water. We will be flooded through September or October, but the heat and reduced water releases will probably prevent any more roads, fields or buildings from being innundation. Right now, we have more good news than bad.

  167. James –

    We are seeing wx reports of >100 degree days in Oklahoma. Are you getting that kind of sun and if so, is it helping drop the water level any?

  168. Anybody using KKKos and “Screw Um” Zuniga as source needs to stay anonymous. Mein Kampf not available for a quote? :roll:

  169. Ok this post seems to be entirely based in semantics. Ok before I go into depth on this article, I want to know two things. Is this a hit and run or do you intend to respond to a rebuttal, and do you believe what this article states, because if you do I will take you to task on this.

  170. While I Take the time to read this post Anonymous, would you care to elaborate and give your own point of view to what you meant. Your one liner didn’t give me much info into your opinion. I would hate to think you don’t have an opinion beyond what others tell you.

  171. Noah

    Time to start treating employees as humans, not as tools.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/11/993570/-Boehner-and-the-Job-Creators-zombie-myth:-Time-to-stake-it-cold-dead?via=siderec

  172. So Bono is a lobyist. He is also in trouble with some fans because the group has sent part of their business operation to Holland to escape the high taxes he thinks others of his countrymen should pay.

  173. Poolman, we have not reached the bottom, and Democrats are leading the race.

    “And what I’ve tried to explain to them (Democrats) is number one, if you took all of numbers than Medicare in particular will run out of money and we will not be able to sustain that program no matter how much taxes go up. I mean its not an option for us to just sit by and do nothing.”

    President Obama at his last press conference.

    Democrats promised Obamacare would save Medicare, and an ad showed Paul Ryan pushing an old lady off a cliff. They did nothing until Repubicans, enabled by the Tea Party, forced them to pretend to be concerned. Once in a while, Obama tells the truth when his teleprompter goes on vacation.

  174. “The last thing you want to do is to raise taxes in the middle of a recession because that would just suck up–take more demand out of the economy, and put business further in the hole.” Obama in 2009 according to Betsy’s Page.

  175. Noah, the liberals will tell you how they think higher taxes will help the economy but reality demonstrates how Obamanomics works.

    We do need higher taxes in ways that don’t hurt job creation, but Democrats (mostly) have scammed us before. “Just raise taxes and then we will reduce spending.” Once taxes go up, the incentive to reduce spending is gone. We need to reduce spending first and then worry about taxes.

    Too many politicians are playing politics, and that includes our president.

  176. Wow. This was a long trip. I guess I found the bottom. :cool:

    HELLO HELEN!!! Tell us what you think. Really. We are anxiously waiting a bit of your wit and wisdom. Let us know you and Margaret are all right.

  177. Galls yer ass that you can’t get in there doesn’t it? HAR HAR HAR

    Are you kidding?

    That protected turd is a living testament to one joke after another on various other blogs…do you know how many yuck yucks Chatty Kitchen has given many of us? One lib blog of running the nags off was enough to prove my point Anon.

    All of you are spineless, clueless hacks – no danger except you vote. That’s a big danger as potato head for President proves.

  178. So I’ve been giving this a great deal of thought and maybe some Liberal can explain with their version of Logic how increasing taxes is going to (A) improve the economy and (B) reduce our debt.

    To (A) I know as a business owner when my bills go up I decrease my spending and expenses. Spending would be the money I put into the economy and expenses among other things is hiring employees. To the second point on hiring, I take in all the factors of increased production and profit and weight that against the additional cost an employee brings to the table. If I don’t meet a certain margin of increased profits I do not hire. Added taxes raises that bar and makes it less likely I will hire.

    (B) Our Debt. If the Messiah proposes no new spending, by the end of his first term in office we will be $5 Trillion in debt. Bush did not create this much debt in 8 years in office. So I hear Libs asking for more taxes. When Regan was in office, he cut taxes and doubled the amount of revenue the government took in after suffering through the Carter years. He created 21 million new jobs. A more recent example, Canada went down this same path with us over the past few years. They reached 10.1% unemployment. They did a much more conservative “stimulus”, roughly 1/3 of ours, and are currently about 7.4% unemployment while ours continues to rise. Less debt = better prognosis for the economy. Two working examples in action.

    That said, the debt must be lowered. 2 choices. Cut spending or raise taxes. Our economy is still in the crapper. If you think raising taxes is the way to go, explain to me how this will (A) not hurt the economy, not only not hurt it, but show me how it will help it, because it is in dire need of help right now, and (B) show me how this will fix the debt. I ask (B) because I relate this to a sinking boat. You have water coming in at 5 gallons a minute, and you request a sponge. The sponge manages to take out 1/2 a gallon a minute, so you have effectively slowed the rate at which you are sinking, but you will still sink at the end of the day.

    Show me how the currently proposed taxes will stop our ship from sinking. In my humble opinion it cannot, I offer into evidence the above video I linked a few days ago that shows taking everything from everyone cannot pay for even 1 year of our current spending. If we scrapped Messiah care we would not even have to worry about raising the debt ceiling. Problem solved.

    Liberals want to be fair. Currently 25% of Americans pay almost all the tax burden. The bottom 50% pay nothing or almost nothing. I hope at this point you can see where the logic in all of this starts to fail me. I see contradiction galore and would surely love for anyone who truly believes the Messiah has us on the right path to step up and show me, logically and mathematically, how this is going to work and how our economy will recover because of it, not in spite of it.

  179. bono(r)’s main charity

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1314543/Bonos-ONE-foundation-giving-tiny-percentage-funds-charity.html

    ‘We don’t provide programmes on the ground. We’re an advocacy and campaigning organization.’…….does this mean lobbyist? just what we need in DC is more lobbyists….

  180. No Ones’ Puppet, I will try again. I am not comparing myself to Hatians or AIDS victims.I am only arguing that our region is in the middle of a disaster.

    Imagine a basketball team and a bowling team. Each shares similarities with its competing athletes and fans. One can compare their commonality. but they are different sports and beyond a point their differences are too great for meaningful comparison. They are apples and oranges.

    Both sports also tend to have a different fan base. Suppose Obama and many entertainers like basketball and have little regard for bowling. They will watch basketball games and ignore bowling. Our flood and tornado zones represent bowling. We get along without the basketball fans, but we notice.

    This about our differing opinions is just for fun:

    “Well I’m not parylized
    but I seem to be struck by you
    I want to help you move
    because you’re standing still
    if your mind matches what your words can do
    you’d probably move right through me
    on my way to you.”

    We just got home. I minimized this page on Saturday and have no idea what or if anyone has written something since then.

  181. Dear Helen,
    So sorry to hear of Harold’s passing. I have, after a long absence, decided to see if you posted and was saddened to read of your loss. He must’ve been one smart cookie to have married you, and hope that his memory comforts you. You are truly a great influence on me and have made me realize that my opinions and beliefs are not to be silenced and that I should not be ashamed or embarassed to express them. You are one of many women who have gotten us to where we are today, No matter how small the steps, we should only go forward and you have encouraged me to keep going. Thank you so much for being who you are…peace and comfort to you and your family…Michelle Smith

  182. Thanks for the reminder, delurkergurl.

  183. I showed your posts to my wife, and she was overwhelmed. You are amazing, just to offer. This was totally unexpected.

    I understand NOP. As I wrote before, we are lucky. The unemployment rate in Nebraska is about 4.5% and in Iowa as a whole, 6%–maybe lower in the West. Your doubling your check to your local food bank means a lot to me. I knew I had good reason to like you. I knew you were joking, and my thinking it was funny shows we are more alike than you know.

    Pfessor, the three churches order supplies from the Heartland Food Bank in Council Bluffs. They pay per pound for what is ordered, and the company charges a hauling fee based on the size of the load. The truck comes up once a month. In between, individuals make runs as frequently as once a week for small items like bread and milk. Sometimes that food is free.

    The locals pay about $.16 on the dollar for supplies. So, roughly $5.00 will buy 25 pounds of goods. My wife thought a check would be more efficient, and it would avoid postage.

    The Mondamin, Ia church treasurer suggested sending items like peanut butter or canned goods through UPS or Fed Ex to her house care of the church if someone doesn’t want to send money.

    The Food pantry is short of peanut butter and cereal now. The Boy Scouts recently donated toilet paper. They are part of the same group who survived the Little Sioux Scout Ranch tornado three years ago. Cleaning supplies will be important after the flood subsides in two or three months.

    Mondamin United Methodist Church
    201 Pine Street ( you could add PO.; Box 163, but it will probably get to Betty anyway)
    Mondamin, Iowa 51557

    Write on the check memo “To the Mondamin Food Bank (or Food Pantry. )
    Thanks to the flood, the group is far-flung. The checks eventually go to the head treasurer now in Council Bluffs about forty-five miles away. Consequently deliveries are irregular, and a check might not be cashed for several weeks. Eventually, someone would send a receipt with an explanation of how the contribution was used. If a check bought bread and steak, we would tell you.

    Another administration problem is the minister for our three churches moved on July 1, and an interim lay leader is replacing him for the next few months. The minister’s new church is in a flood zone, so while he has the new job, he is still stuck in our parsonage rent free.

    Most customers are living on unemployment checks or suffered tragedy. One family’s home burned down. Others have been dislocated by the flood. In May, the food pantry helped 584 people. The June number was 560 because some of them temporarily moved. A grant and private donations pay the bills. My wife has just begun to work on the grant report. She has been delayed because people with the information had fled the flood and she couldn’t reach them. They like the customers show up when they can, and they are hard to reach with only cell phones.

    The grant was for Harrison County, but the need was so great, the churches began serving southern Monona County bordering on the north.

    I feel like Sally Struthers. “Only ten dollars will pay for a child’s college degree…”

    It is a good day, the flood waters are slowly subsiding until the next big rain, and after I told Betty about your offers, she said “I love you sweety.”
    I will be gone the rest of today and much of tomorrow. Thanks again.

  184. Another benefit to writing checks is that if your employer has a matching gift program, your gift can go much farther. Mine matches dollar for dollar, for approved non-profit organizations. That covers most non-profit organizations and crisis funds. Just thought I’d remind everyone again because it’s free money people often forget about.

  185. James, I was pretty much kidding about sending you supplies, but hubby and I will, in honor those in your area who have been booted from their homes and hearth by the flood, by doubling our check this month to the local food bank. I think you understand that we virtually have hundreds of thousands of people locally who have been going through their own disaster for as long as four or five years, now. We write a check, so that the food bank can buy in bulk, and our money will go further.
    Just glad, you can look ahead to better days and quit comparing yourself to Haitians and orphaned African AIDs victims, Bono’s main charities.

  186. By: jsri on July 6, 2011 at 2:41 PM

    “You will also be glad to know that these will most likely be my final words on the subject.”

    Sure they will. ;)

    You didn’t delete that bookmark, did you? Did you ever mean what you say – maybe at some earlier point in your life? Just curious.

  187. Hey James – I just had an idea:

    How about you give us the name of your church, with address and contact info, etc. and those of us who are so inclined can send items to help with flood relief? You know, so far this blog has just been a venue for mental masturbation; maybe we could all actually accomplish something.

    We could all send a little note with our M&H handles and you could acknowledge it here? What do you think?

  188. James –

    Can you tell me where and how to send supplies? And what do the people need? I find the jokes offensive when folks need help for real. At the risk of sounding like some others I think that’s the difference sometimes between the talkers and the doers. Let’s see how many from the Chatty Kitchen send anything.

  189. Noah, if the economy doesn’t improve soon, those broken promises will be the least of Obama’s worries. If too many things like the Gunrunner episode are uncovered, the press might eventually turn on him as it did Clinton during the Lewinski scandal.

  190. Thanks NOP. I realize your are joking in a way to remind us of the bad conditions after hurricane Katrina, and they could also apply to the tornado victims.

    I don’t care because my mood is too good. The flood has stabilized, and broken levies downstream have helped lower the river level by a foot. We will be safe until and if another heavy storm dumps a lot of water on us as it did nearly two weeks ago. Had another hit a few days after that one, water would have over topped the drainage ditch banks and suddenly given us a lot of trouble. It would also have been bad because we don’t have flood insurance.

    Seriously, our food bank could use the food. Many of the volunteers have left, and recipients are scarcer because they have also moved or can’t get to the church because of bad roads. The suppliers have not been able to provide the variety they did because of travel and economic problems. About the only meat they are getting is chicken.

    MRI’s might be useable. The other thing I would have to check on would be what if anything families living in camp grounds because of flooded homes or problems getting to their jobs might need. Those places are mostly seventy or a hundred miles down stream. Homeless flood victims are also living in the dorms of a defunct college in Blair, Neb. Church women prepare meals for them, but I don’t know if the families are actually broke.

    Our dentists and doctors are still around, though they have sometimes been in different towns. We really need Arbies and Pamida Without Borders, because both businesses have left for the duration. The closest Arbys is in Omaha, and we have to take a detour to get there.

    I might put cardboard from a large box and tape Obama’s picture on it. It should make a suitable shield for any Corps of Engineers reps who visit the neighborhood. People are furious.

    Even FEMA is mad at them. They told me the economic damage will rival the Mississippi River flood of three years ago, and may approach the cost of hurricane Katrina–not in lost lives or property damage but in economic damage. He reminded me the flooded Yellowstone River valley had an oil spill last week. Cleaning that costs money too.. FEMA will have to review its flood plain manual. That will also cost money.

    One town is a ghost town which still doesn’t have flood water for a variety of reasons. So far, I have been able to tell the Corps and FEMA, “I told you so” in a nice way, but the neighbors want to tar and feather them. This has been a stressful month. Everyone blames the Corps of Engineers for the two thousand mile flood. The locals who blew a dike to save three towns also created a sensation. People in our county were grateful. People down stream wanted to arrest them.

    You wouldn’t have a few Obama posters would you? One picture may not be enough. Besides protection for the Corps of Engineers, they might be used to frighten wild animals taking refuge in towns.

    As the World Herald wrote “The work hasn’t ended yet, and the crisis is by no means over. But it is pretty evident that there will be no slackers on the front lines in the battle against the swift waters. Bless every one of them,”

    You are obviously not a slacker either, and your sense of humor seems as twisted as mine. I thought your post was funny. From what I know of you and now, this little joke, I realize you and I are more alike than I thought. That should scare you.

  191. Just remember to sign the back of the photo with the 30+ broken promises to the people Obama no longer needs to care about since winning the election. Poor saps actually believed Obama would follow through.

  192. James I like you too! That is why I am sending you:

    Canned food.
    Baby food & formula.
    Can openers.
    MREs (Meals Ready to Eat – military rations).
    Bottled water in gallon jugs.
    Disposable diapers.
    Anti-biotic ointment (i.e. Neosporin)
    Diaper rash cream.
    Condoms. Lots and lots of condoms.
    Used clothing.
    Sleeping bags.
    Toilet paper
    sanitary napkins
    bandages
    tooth paste and tooth brushes
    combs
    hemorrhoid cream
    A new computer chair

    And my husband has a 3″ x 5″ photo, of President Obama, suitable for framing, I’ll send you too. Anything else you need, like Doctors Without Borders or something?

  193. Why would you want to get in your ass?

    Sounds pervy to me…

    Now that I think about it…haven’t tried THAT one…hmmm…..

  194. Galls yer ass that you can’t get in there doesn’t it? HAR HAR HAR

  195. Wayne’s off his meds again.

    HAR HAR HAR! Pull string #3 of 6 on the Chatty Cathy Kitchen doll of replies.

    When in the heck are you libs going to get some new comeback material? It would be far more fun if we could get some lefties in here (not the cowardly anonymous ones) that have a decent sense of humor and some working post synaptic neurons, instead of a list of mothballed reflex retorts.

    You gals and gays are as stale as Obama’s one liners…

    Need some help? Baahhhhh…

  196. Wayne’s off his meds again.

    HAR HAR HAR! Pull string #3 of 6 on the Chatty Cathy Kitchen doll of replies.

    When in the heck are you libs going to get some new comeback material? It would be far more fun if we could get some lefties in here (not the cowardly anonymous ones) that have a decent sense of humor and some working post synaptic neurons, instead of a list of mothballed reflex retorts.

    You gals and gays are as stale as Obama’s one liners…

    Need some help? Baahhhhh…

  197. Wayne’s off his meds again.

  198. I love this video, i luv this video….omg I like this video. Might be old news for some of you but I just found this 2 minutes before posting it here, and I must say….I love this video.

  199. After my conversation with FEMA, I am even more convinced of my opinion that Obama and entertainers are hyprocrites where our region is concerned. The Obamas are canceling their vacation in Montana. If they went later, it would be another convenient opportunity for a symbolic view of the flood as he could have done in Iowa. Would he take the time? I doubt it.Bono won’t be saying much either.

  200. alaskapi, “Take it however you want.” I take it as a complement, and I send it back to you.

    I am interested in what you wrote about the similarity between rural-urban attitudes in our area and yours. My conversations with Canadian, British, and Brazilian farmers convinced me we have more in common with each other than many of our own countrymen.

    My MA thesis showed a rural-urban conflict on the Great Plains in the nineteenth century. Towns needed irrigation more than farmers. Farmers could move, Towns couldn’t.

    I just called FEMA. The man told me this flood will cost more than the Mississippi River flood of three years ago. It may rival Katrina for the people displaced and property distroyed. I reviewed what I had told FEMA last summer and expected to be dismsed out of hand.The man told me this flood is a game changer. Because of the flood, FEMA will review definitions and procedures. They might even define I 29 as a dike.

    I was surprised at the vehimous way he as an employee of a government agency criticized the Corps of Engineers, another agency. He said this man-made flood should not have happened on the scale that it has. It is also possible next year could be a repeat performance.

    I would also be very happy if we didn’t discuss politics most of the time. Maybe music…

    I am competitive, and regard blogs as a form of verbal combat with winners and losers.

    Speaking of that, Wayne, You would have been good on a college or high school debate team. You have a way with words and thoughts, even if you are sometimes like a one man demolition team.

    Uawtradesman, thanks for the links. The one suggesting we may someday eat Grandma was especially interesting. So was another article about a flat earth map.

  201. Tex/Wayne has every right to his opinions but his style of delivery reminds me the burp and fart stage my son and his buddies went through at about 13 that got so wearing -about the 473rd time one of em burped on purpose and yukked it up at the expense of everything else going on I’d run out of patience.

    How ironic. As I was burping and farting, it occurred to me your lack of content, strange subject matter, repetitious cut and paste pertaining to material nobody gives a damn about but you, and incoherent style give me a great deal of gas.

    As to your patience, well….it’s a virtue. It would only follow being a virtue, you would have none. Don’t sweat it – you’re a lib and it’s expected.

  202. alaskapi, “Take it however you want.” I take it as a complement, and I send it back to you.

    I am interested in what you wrote about the similarity between rural-urban attitudes in our area and yours. My conversations with Canadian, British, and Brazilian farmers convinced me we have more in common with each other than many of our own countrymen.

    My MA thesis showed a rural-urban conflict on the Great Plains in the nineteenth century. Towns needed irrigation more than farmers. Farmers could move, Towns couldn’t.

    I would also be very happy if we didn’t discuss politics most of the time. Maybe music…

    I am competitive, and regard blogs as a form of verbal combat with winners and losers.

    Speaking of that, Wayne, You would have been good on a college or high school debate team. You have a way with words and thoughts, even if you are sometimes like a one man demolition team.

    Uawtradesman, thanks for the links. The one suggesting we may someday eat Grandma was especially interesting. So was another article about a flat earth map.

  203. James- not so disappointed now- this is more what I have come to expect of you… rightly or wrongly, fair or unfair- I have come to expect a fundamental acceptance of others from you
    “I often disagree with her, but I also like delurkergurl. She can be mean, aggressive, and wrong, but so can I. Underneath it all, I think she is a sweet person.”
    You can take it however you want.
    PFesser-
    I have appreciated your attempts to clear the decks of past “failures to communicate” but accept some folks will have a damn hard time getting over words slung in F… You moments- it’s normal and it’s human.
    I am not a competitive personality and much of my cultural background is decidedly non-competitive so the idea that one loses by stepping away from a non-productive set of conversations doesn’t compute.
    Aside from being interested in what other people think, whether I agree with them or not, I most recently have spent time here in search of ideas for reframing conversations about the rural /urban divide here at home. I think James would/will be surprised to find that his remarks about the Corps and his own on the ground knowledge of his area have tremendous similarity to traditional knowledge projects and flaps with the state here but I don’t see any interest amongst others to talk about that.
    Tex/Wayne has every right to his opinions but his style of delivery reminds me the burp and fart stage my son and his buddies went through at about 13 that got so wearing -about the 473rd time one of em burped on purpose and yukked it up at the expense of everything else going on I’d run out of patience.
    I work on a multi-admin blog whose main purpose is to open conversation about the rural/urban divide here from a variety of vantage points. This link , which I wish more journalism students would pay heed to, affords a glimpse of some of what we strive for and casting about in unlikely places like M&H’s for ways to come at questions from different angles has had value.

    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Using+general+semantics+principles+in+the+basic+news+reporting…-a014540607

    However, the time has come to step away and get away from the endless framing of all human activity as liberal or conservative tug of war.
    I think all human logical constructs, when pursued to their logical extremes, fail. The holey underpants and unwashed armpits of each different POV are obvious to those who do not share that POV but rarely are we able to examine our own POVs dispassionately enough to see where our own are threadbare. I may not make it but that’s part of my personal quest- to try to learn to adjust when I see the cowflop in the road in time to avoid stomping through it.
    best wishes all- Hoping Craig, Mageen, and all who are having tough times the very best.
    Will be back- as long as Helen let’s us in, this is a place I like stopping by now and again at.

  204. I wonder if Obama is just biding his time and toying with them, letting the conservatives clamor all they want to. Then he can exercise his veto pen. It is not very smart to cross swords with a former Professor of Constitutional Law.

    Unbelievable. There are still a few bleating sheep that believe O’Bama a scholar. Can I hear a CORPSE MAN or two with a shout out?

    I have been reading Margaret and Helen’s posts and a general view of the comments. It is plain that this is a liberal site. It seems strange that 2-3 conservatives come here regularly with venomous remarks bordering on irrational. Those posters appear to know each other well and enjoy sparring over long standing personal vendettas. As a consequence, I am more and more leaning toward the liberal perspective.

    Irrational? :lol: :lol:

    You post a set of well established facts showing how rotten the record of this rancid excuse for President has been and it’s called “irrational.” Text book case of how liberalism qualifies as a mental disorder. P.S. – I have no personal vendettas of any one lib. I disdain them all equally.

    Next I plan to find several sites created by conservatives and see if any vitriolic liberals have invaded them. Maybe I will be persuaded in that direction.

    If you want to try your luck and view an example of vitriolic libs having their heads handed to them, head to Pajamas Media. There’s a handful of more intelligent libs, a rarity, who have a go or two. But they seldom last more than a few rounds. Libs are masters of criticism. When called upon to perform, they run like chickens chased by hounds – usually to some dive like chatty kitchen, where they can completely control the content and play speech police.

    I actually commend the blog moderator here for showing a set.

  205. Pfessor, I told you about two videos which you watched. Mumford and Sons, the men singing on motorcycles with uniformed men lipsynking, and Cake with the giant rabbits both appeared in Omaha-Council Bluffs. Mumford and Sons said they had never seen so much flood water when they landed. The parking lot where they sang was sandbagged and partly under water.

    Our daughter and a friend went to the Cake concert and she said she must be getting old. Someone spilled beer on her shirt, and she reeked of marajuana when they left at the end.

    I found another called “Paralyzer” by Finger Eleven, a Canadian group. The video is essentially a G rated supernatural mating dance. Change some of the words, remove the sexual inuendo, and you have a rough description of a message board.

    I also still like NOP in spite of her ill thought through and failed ambush.

  206. getting back to the genetic fish…

    http://www.livescience.com/3904-free-beef-proposed.html

    http://www.livescience.com/5872-mad-science-growing-meat-animals.html

  207. That’s what I try to do PFessor. James P. Shannon’s essay should be posted on court house walls. Well, maybe not. Perhaps on blog sites, However, when I fail, it is a matter of personal choice for which I have applogized once in a while. In sofar as it is possible to know words on a screen, I like you too Noah, and the people you mentioned.

    I often disagree with her, but I also like delurkergurl. She can be mean, aggressive, and wrong, but so can I. Underneath it all, I think she is a sweet person.

    I think we give Obama too much credit or blame. Look at his history. From the beginning when he edited the Law Review in university, through his legislative career, Barack has tended to lead from behind. He presents some ideas and lets others do the hard work. Then, he engages to tie up loose ends.

    Obamacare, for example, was the President’s concept. He talked about it and his goal for a single payer system before he was elected. He let Reid, Pelosi, their assistants, and others write the details. He as much as admitted he hadn’t read all of the bill during the legislative battle. Unnamed people wrote most of that and other legislation.

    I researched Obama before the election. He scared me, and he has not surprised me.

    Enjoy the good times with your baby, Noah. Before long, you will be teaching a sullen teenager how to drive, but those are good days too.

  208. should be pfesser great post..sorry typing while feeding the baby.

  209. delurkergurl, great post, too bad so many people are like delurkergur just cannot be anything but hateful and spiteful. I should think we can rise above their pettiness and continue on without them. I do admit I get a great deal of satisfaction putting delurkergurl and her coven in their place, and will probably continue to do so as I tend to resent it when an olive branch is needlessly thrown back in our faces time and again. Considering how she lashes out she probably has a really bad home life and comes here to vent her frustrations.

    End of the day only a truly broken individual would do what delurkergurl has done considering the very eloquent post presented by Pfesser. I suppose the best we can hope for is to be kind to each other, be nice to new folks dropping by and encourage them not to do as the coven does. I consider several people here friends, or at least kindred spirits, Pfesser, James, Wayne, one of the incarnations of Anonymous who debated well with myself, Wayne and some others, alaskapi, even if the sentiment isn’t returned, Honolulu Sally had her moments. So I know it is possible, just rare for people of the Liberal persuasion to have an open, honest talk.

  210. delurkergurl –

    Thanks for the post.

    I rest my case.

  211. Pfessor, really? You think that not caving to your (plural form) demands to participate here on your terms is losing? And you dominating an abandoned blog is WINNING? LMAO! You sound like Charlie Sheen without the pretty girls and money. Thanks for the laugh. :D Really, I mean it.

    When Hell’n posts again, everyone will turn up again. Nobody ran away. They weren’t here for you. When this blog wasn’t what people wanted any more, they found other places to go. There are thousands and thousands of blogs and boards on the web. Your insistence on dominating this one while whining about how disappointed you’ve been at it for a year makes you look stubborn and stupid.

  212. Here it is:

    The Tradition of Respectful Argument
    MSGR. James P. Shanon
    President, St. Thomas College and Military Academy

    One mark of an educated man is his ability to differ without becoming angry, sarcastic, or discourteous. Such a man recognizes that in contingent matters there will always be a place for legitimate difference of opinion.

    He knows that he is not infallible, he respects the honesty and intellectual integrity of other men, and presumes that all men are men of integrity until they are proved to be otherwise. He is prepared to listen to them when their superior wisdom has something of value to teach him. He is slow to answer and always confident that truth can defend itself and state its own case without specious arguments, emotional displays, or personal pressures.

    This is not to say that he abandons his position easily. If he can be a disciplined mind, he does not lightly forsake the intellectual ground he has won at great cost. He yields only to evidence, proof, or demonstration.

    He expects his adversary to show conclusively the superior value of his opinions and he is not convinced by anything less than this. He is not intimidated by shouting. He is not impressed by verbosity. He is not overwhelmed by force of numbers.

    His abiding respect for truth’s viability enables him to maintain composure and balance in the face of impressive odds. And his respect for the person and the intellect of his opponent persuades him from using cheap tricks, caustic comments, or personal attacks against his adversary, no matter how brilliant or forceful, unjust or unfair, they may be.

    Because of his large views of truth and of individual human respectability, he is prepared to suffer apparent defeat in the mind of the masses on occasions when he knows his position is right. He is not shattered by this apparent triumph of darkness, because he realizes that the mass-mind is fickle at best.

    At best he is neither angered nor shocked by new evidence of public vulgarity or blindness. He is rather prepared to see in these expected human weaknesses compelling reason for more compassion, better rhetoric, and stronger evidence on his part. He seeks always to persuade and seldom to denounce.

    The ability to defend one’s own position with spirit and conviction, to evaluate accurately the conflicting opinions of others, and retain one’s confidence in the ultimate power of truth to carry its own weight are necessary talents in any society, but especially so in our democratic culture.

    There is some evidence that these virtues are in short supply in our day and in our land. The venerable tradition of respectful argumentation, based on evidence, conducted with courtesy, and leading to greater exposition of truth is a precious part of our heritage in this land of freedom. It is the duty of educated men to understand, appreciate, and perpetuate this tradition.

    (This brief essay was written by James P. Shannon, President of St. Thomas College and Military Academy in St. Paul, Minnesota, for his college paper. It was later reprinted in the May issue of the University of Minnesota Alumni News, 1962.)

    (((((You can’t always do it, but to do anything else ALWAYS leads to unsatisfactory results, especially on the Internet – Jim)))))

  213. Noah –

    While I did vote for Obama, I am very critical of his policies as you know. But I don’t blame it all on him. He does have a lot of power, but so do the Congress and all the cabinet “ministers.” I have been an investor for a very long time and there is plenty of blame to go around; I could start with Clinton and the elimination of Glass-Steagall and go all the way through GWB – and, yes, to Obama’s administration. Greenspan played no small part. So, kind of sidling into your comment about being an offender – I think some folks would be less p-o’d if Obama wasn’t singled out for all the blame perhaps. I am surely disappointed in him but I don’t put more than 25% of the blame on his head. Just my .05.

    As for a better atmosphere – it’s really tough when you don’t know anybody personally. They don’t care if they piss you off and you don’t care if you do the same. That is a bad point of communicating on the Internet, but it invariably leads down a bad path. I know; I’ve done it myself. The tendency is to just fire off a quick “f__k you.”

    Let me see if I can find something I ran across in college. If so, I’ll post it.

  214. I agree with the Pfessor. Part of its charm is this site’s having fewer rules than a NASCAR race. As in a race, you pick friends where you find them, and alliances shift from time to time. Sometimes, you try to spin out a foe, and a fist fight may follow.

    So, undecided, do some research and attack the arguments you disagree with if you choose to stay. Facts rule, though some people interpret them to fit their agendas. If you see it happening, call them on it.

    My concept of the Bush tax cuts resembles what I feel about interstate highways, railroad tracks and roads. Last summer, I tried to convince FEMA authorities they should factor such structures into their flood prone calculations. They told me they wouldn’t because our interstate was not a dike.

    This flood has proven them wrong. While not called a dike our interstate stopped water from flowing into other parts of the valley. In some cases, it was more effective than the levies which broke. Knap bags and other devices used to keep otherwise submerged roads open also served as dikes. Except for the name, our roads were an effective system of dikes.

    The Bush tax cuts have been around long enough for people and businesses to adjust to them. Thus, if they are rescinded, they will make the affected people react as if they are tax increases. Technically, it is not a tax increase, but like the roads it serves a function authorities won’t name.

    Our national unemployment rate has now risen to 9.2% according the news. This supports my observation that the stimulus law failed. While the private sector gained some jobs, much of the loss came from governments. As stated in the law, its economic boost was intended to be a temporary jump start.

    This is bad, because lower economic activity reduces government revenues, even with the short-term gain of confiscatory taxes. We should watch which politicians demagague, which take the threat seriously, and who’s ideas are workable. We should prepare to sacrifice our favorite government programs and vote. So far, countries buy our debt because they think it is a good long term investment. If they change their minds, “we’ve got trouble, right here in River City.”

  215. PFesser, agree on all counts as probably the worst offender. Not to make excuses but I reached a point where turning the other cheek seemed to be chum in the water and got me even more personal attention. Would be nice if we could return things to an intellectual level and ditch all the personal crap.

    As for the debt I think it is as bad as you think it is, probably worse. We have land set aside in a joint venture with life long friends, wild corn growing to attract dear, and stocked with a lot of hand tools, (hand cranked blenders and such). I know some people say every generation had a time where they thought the shyt was going to hit the fan. I have to say this time I don’t see how it is not going to hit the fan. Obama is going to continue to spend us into oblivion. Debt is reaching that unsustainable point, and when it does I feel its going to be, game over.

  216. alaskapi –

    I like to debate Wayne/Tex; he’s bright and ornery, but I have to say I don’t think his attack-dog style fits very well here. He and I go after it hammer and tong at Rutherford’s and it’s a lot of fun.

    As I told jsri in my last post to him, heaven here would be folks doing a lively give-and-take in a spirited, but not personal way. I have hoped for that since I came more than a year ago.

    I am not a young player in the blog/newsgroup game. If people irk you, there is one and only one response: none. You cannot run away because if you do they win and they have driven you out.

    There are so many very bright and thoughtful people who view this blog, and I would like to see them post more. The only way it will survive IMHO is for everybody to get some personal discipline and not respond to the folks trying to fan flames with personal insult. Raji does probably the best job of anybody, and I include myself in that list of those who could improve. We are pissing away a great opportunity to have a really nice blog.

    re: the deficit, borrowing, etc. I just downloaded to my Kindle a book called, “Debt, Deficit and the Demise of the American Economy.” It is really chilling. Talk about the elephant in the room! I believe we will shortly be in very dire straits. My wife and I are on our own austerity program to try to pay off as much of our house as we can as quickly as possible. I think this coming financial crisis ain’t going to be pretty and it looks to my eye to be very close.

  217. Sorry about that alaskapi.

    I let it pass because Wayne’s diatribe didn’t affect my emotions one way or the other. Thanks to my past, my emotions are inconsistant and unpredictable. “It is the imaginary surppression of the person we cannot surppress.” I compromised and merged with the person who was born to protect me during hard times in the service.

    When I was a veteran guest on NPR’s Talk of the Nation, Science Friday, one of the panelists called me a “perfect storm.”

    So, don’t expect me to be anyone’s consistant defender. it depends on my mood. .

  218. ….continued…to offer up into evidence exhibit #1 check out the post by this boards host labeled Sometimes men should just stick to football… but I digress. A personal attack launched directly at me. Followed were the gang of thugs that joined in relentlessly for weeks. We are the result of their actions, not the other way around.

  219. undecided, you should read back further. Those of us of a non Liberal bent spent months trying to disarm the regulars here, almost begging them to cease the personal attacks and engage us on our ideas. For months we were all ganged up on without mercy. So having failed miserably at every turn and having one olive branch after another thrown in our face, we took them on at their game, their way, and handed them their collective asses. They found out the hard way the truth can be difficult to bluff your way past. If I have said it once I have said it a hundred times, that olive branch will always be there when they chose civilized discourse over personal attacks, but the days of taking it up the arse are long over.

  220. I am surprised that no one on this blog has brought up the budget crisis. That controversy has been in the forefront for some time. It will probably continue to be right down until Aug. 2. The facts are that the Bush tax cuts are only due to expire. The conservatives are calling them tax increases. Some of them are demanding a Constitutional Amendment to require a balanced budget. Do they know what is involved in passing one and getting it ratified by all the states? How much time that takes? Between now and Aug. 2? Are any of the congressmen aware of the provisions of the 14th Amendment?

    I wonder if Obama is just biding his time and toying with them, letting the conservatives clamor all they want to. Then he can exercise his veto pen. It is not very smart to cross swords with a former Professor of Constitutional Law.

    I have been reading Margaret and Helen’s posts and a general view of the comments. It is plain that this is a liberal site. It seems strange that 2-3 conservatives come here regularly with venomous remarks bordering on irrational. Those posters appear to know each other well and enjoy sparring over long standing personal vendettas. As a consequence, I am more and more leaning toward the liberal perspective.

    Next I plan to find several sites created by conservatives and see if any vitriolic liberals have invaded them. Maybe I will be persuaded in that direction.

  221. James-disappointed here .
    Tex/Wayne comes over and does his slap happy insult o rama routine and all you have to say is add such and such to the list?
    Have been spending some time trying to figure out how to talk across gulfs while standing next to folks- ignoring insults and all. Pretty much a flop I think.
    Delurkergurl- thanks. Worth a shot to try to open the door…
    Thank you Helen and Margaret for having all of us in. Gonna take a break for awhile. Fish to fry and all…

    from Jose Ortega y Gasset in Meditations on Quixote:

    “we …find it easier to be aroused by a moral dogma than to open our hearts to the demands of veracity. We are definitely more willing to hand over our free will to a rigid moral attitude than to keep our judgment always open, ready at any moment for the desirable form and correction.

    One might say that we embrace the moral imperative like a weapon in order to simplify life for ourselves by destroying immense portions of the globe.

    With keen vision Nietzsche has detected forms and products of resentment in certain moral attitudes. No product of resentment can evoke our sympathy. Rancor emanates from a sense of inferiority.

    It is the imaginary suppression of the person whom we cannot actually suppress by our own efforts.The one towards whom we feel resentment bears in our imagination the livid semblance of a corpse: in our minds, we have killed him, annhilated him.

    Later, when we find him actually sound and unconcerned in reality, he seems to us like a refractory corpse , stronger than ourselves, whose very existence is an embodiment of mockery, of disdain towards our weakness.

    Love (knowledge for Ortega) fights too, it does not stagnate in the troubled peace of compromise; but it fights lions as lions and gives the name “dog” only to dogs.

    This struggle with an enemy who is understood is true tolerance, the proper attitude of every robust soul. Jose de Campos , the eighteenth century thinker, whose interesting book Azorin has discovered , wrote : ” The virtues of tolerance are rare in poor peoples ” ; that is to say, weak peoples.”

  222. The last post was mine.

  223. Pfessor, yes, many farm steads are on slightly higher ground with mounds built under houses. A number of farmsteads are islands with the help of home-made dikes.

    Our house is built on a four to five foot foundation. Most of the interior has never been flooded in the one hundred years of its existance. My grandparents bought and built a Sears Roebuck house in 1911 and planned for floods.

    Ft Randal and Gavins Point Dams in South Dakota are becoming tourist attractions. 160,000 cfs shooting through spillways is spectacular. So, far, I haven’t persuaded, my wife to go.

    During WW1, neighbors cut the dike of the drainage ditch to relived flood pressure on their side of the dike. My grandparents got tired of it, so one year, my grandfather and their three oldest children patrolled the dike late at night. Giving a teenaged boy and his sisters rifles was probably a bad idea. My aunt shot at a shadow.

    Wayne, you should add Project Gunrunner to your list. According to Babalu, money from the stimulus law paid for it.

  224. Lurch,

    Set these facts to memory and report them back to Chatty Cathy’s so you gals can massage the disaster for a few days while you man the lifeboats. It does tickle me so to watch libs now judged on record alone. Abysmal…

    —–

    Indisputable facts Lurch….. .17 seconds, or not:

    There are 2 million fewer private-sector jobs now than when Obama was sworn in, and the unemployment rate is 1.5 percentage points higher.

    • There are now more long-term unemployed than at any time since the government started keeping records.

    • The U.S. dollar is more than 12% weaker.

    • The number of Americans on food stamps has climbed 37%.

    • The Misery Index (unemployment plus inflation) is up 62%.

    • And the national debt is about 40% higher than it was in January 2009.

    Anybody of sanity who bothered to look will discover that Obama has managed to produce the worst recovery on record by a long shot.

    Obama = EPIC FAILURE
    Chatty Kitchen = House of Hags

  225. James – I don’t have the time or inclination to go that far back and look, but I am pretty sure Rae left because of me. Too bad; she was bright and thoughtful.

    Good on you about the water’s receding. Man that must really suck. I think everybody ought to know just how far above the nearest river their property is – some folks where I grew up elevated their homes about six feet and put a cinderblock wall under them in response to a flood. The next flood they were cheezin’. They were in their own little islands, watching the water go by!

  226. Cynthia, do you remember when my wife and I were preparing to leave our home with the flood, and we worried about what to do with our dog?

    After a lot of work and trickery of my wife, our dog now has a collar around her neck and we learned she is trained for a leash. She just hates it and gives us resentful expressions.

    Local water levels have fallen six inches in the last two days, and the nearest flood water is staling across the road from us. We are optimistic about our house if heavy rain stays away..

  227. alaskapi, You aren’t boring me. I plan to look at the link when I have time. I worry that I bore you.

    I just finished the Administration’s analysis of the stimulus law. It didn’t surprise me except for the statement that the law was intended to be temporary. I am suspicious of job estimates like that because it is hard to know exactly how many jobs were created or lost due to a governmental or private event because cause and effect are complex. I was also surprised the authors said that near the end of their report.

    As I wrote before, the stimulus targeted governments and also infrastructure and green jobs. They are good, and necessary, but they redistribute more than create wealth. Thus, the recovery is less self sustaining than concentration on the private sector would have been. I think the administration misjudged how our economy works and expected the mostly government aid would jump start the entire economy. It did a bit, but not as much as they expected as the authors stated in their report.

    Some companies have no doubt returned money to the government, so that needs to be part of the calculation. However, considering the stated goals of the law and independent economists who have said the law failed, I agree. The government could have spent the money more wisely.

    delurkergurl, thanks for your earlier kind words about our perdiciment. I’m not going to argue with you today, because I appreciate you. But I do have a question. How did you word your question to google? I wrote “how much did the stimulus law’s jobs created cost per job?” I got pages of “Obama’s own economists say they cost $278.000 per job.” I want to see what the other side says.

    Another reason I don’t trust reports and projections is they are based on imperfect information. The Corps of Engineers reps finally agreed I was right about our local inundation maps after I had been telling them since June 10. As Rumsfeld said so eliquently, knowns and unknowns interact in unknown ways.

    My Corps of Engineers conversations testify to the advantages of being nice. They are catching a lot grief, so when they help me, I praise them and ask to tell their supervisors what a good job they are doing. It is the truth. They now recognize my voice and tell me how happy they are to talk to me. My wife says I have aquired a fan club.

    PFessor, I know you miss Rae. She left because of me. Someone bashed me, and I responded in kind. She said I should have ignored it, wrote she wouldn’t put up with any more of me and declared she was leaving. It didn’t bother me.

  228. Testing, testing!

  229. delurkergurl, welcome out from under the house that fell in you. I wonder if the 30+ failed campaign promises by your Messiah bother you equally as much?

  230. I apologize for boring folks to pieces- fish law and issues are very important to me.
    For anyone still awake this is a decent run at more of what is involved here :

    http://www.tu.org/press_releases/2010/trout-magazine-story-biotech-salmon-would-endanger-wild-salmon-and-ecosystems

  231. PFesser- the thrust of Aqua Bounty’s argument ( the company involved ) is that they would be able to quarantine the fish farming well enough to negate any and all risks. FDA is only part of the picture. Congress has the responsibility to regulate interstae commerce . In these days of arguing about whether there is too much regulation getting in the way of open commerce they seem to be abdicating their responsibility to look seriously at the larger issues involved here. I think the FDA needs to finish it’s process, be it yea or nay, and then we decide through Congress or our pocketbooks whether we accept this product. Lots of people disagree with me. They would rather stop it any old way. I don’t like the idea of “gains” or “losses” made by back door means- that stuff bites us back at some point.

  232. You’re right, AlaskaPi. $278,000 per job is a lie, only believed by suckers, and spread by suckers and liars. Google found the answer for me in 0.17 seconds. It’s inconvenient for people to look for the facts. Facts make lousy mud.

  233. alaskapi –
    I am well-aware of the problems encountered when introducing foreign plants/animals: English sparrow, starling, multiflora rose, kudzu, rabbits in Australia, Chinese beetles here. It is universally a bad idea; I’ve never seen it work. Mixing transgenic fish with native fish seems to me like a massive genie – once it is out of the bottle, if it doesn’t work you are in real trouble since there is no going back.

  234. James has outlined the general problems with aquaculture-farmed fish- and transgenic salmon has at least those problems.
    The collapses of various aquaculture projects off the coast of Chile had much to do with people assuming they could control for those variables and finding they weren’t anywhere able to.

    There is a fair amount of info here as regards current study of aquaculture and risk assessment as relates to transgenic salmon.

    http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AdvisoryCommittees/CommitteesMeetingMaterials/VeterinaryMedicineAdvisoryCommittee/UCM227002.pdf

    What is just off stage in discussions about feeding people via aquaculture is the vast complicated structure of federal legislation in the EEZ ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_Economic_Zone )
    as it relates to fisheries.My Rep has had a part in crafting amendments to the Magnusson Stevens Fisheries Conservation Act and proposals currently in committee to disallow the EPA from making judgments about water quality in navigable waters which make a sham of his basic argument that he is all about protecting wild fish stocks but the remarks by others are more valid.
    Would way rather real consideration of risks be weighed than hiding FDAs checkbook though.

  235. PFesser- most of the arguments about transgenic fish are mentioned above -from Congress Daily Journal of remarks made on the floor when the amendment was introduced. I think my Rep makes the poorest articulation .
    The approval process is lodged in the FDA’s veterinary medicine section

    http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/FDAVeterinarianNewsletter/ucm133255.htm

    ‘Q. How will these products be regulated?

    A. Most, but probably not all, gene-based modifications of animals for production or therapeutic claims fall under CVM regulation as new animal drugs. As strange as it may seem at first, many of the modifications being investigated involve the addition of new animal drug substances. For example, adding growth hormone to a cow can be accomplished through use of BST injections, through gene therapies to create BST-producing regions in the body of the cow, or through germ-line modification, making a transgenic variety that contains extra BST-coding genes in every cell of the body, including reproductive cells. It all amounts to adding an animal drug, but the conditions are different – dose, areas of the body where the drug is released, opportunity for a withdrawal time, etc. The substances being added are for the purpose of improving animal health or productivity.’

  236. Contents Display

    AGRICULTURE, RURAL DEVELOPMENT, FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION, AND RELATED AGENCIES APPROPRIATIONS ACT, 2012 — (House of Representatives – June 15, 2011)

    [Page: H4240] GPO’s PDF

    AMENDMENT OFFERED BY MR. YOUNG OF ALASKA
    Mr. YOUNG of Alaska. Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment at the desk.
    The Acting CHAIR. The Clerk will report the amendment.
    The Clerk read as follows:
    At the end of the bill (before the short title), insert the following:
    Sec. __. None of the funds made available by this Act to the Food and Drug Administration may be used to approve any application submitted under section 512 of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (21 U.S.C. 360b) for approval of genetically engineered salmon.
    The Acting CHAIR. The gentleman is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. YOUNG of Alaska. Mr. Chairman, my interest in here is because I am from Alaska, and we have the finest wild salmon in the world. And we have people that are trying to–and especially under NOAA and FDA–trying to approve the fact that they have genetically engineered a salmon. That’s not natural.
    [Time: 20:10]
    And our goal is, we have a supply of natural wild salmon for the State of Alaska and for this Nation, because I think that’s crucially important, especially in this day when we have all those that accuse us of having artificial things, you know, pesticides, et cetera.
    This is a good amendment. It’s an amendment supported by both sides of the aisle. It’s not just Alaska. This is also for California, Oregon, and the rest of it. But mostly, I am the Congressman from Alaska. I think it’s crucially important we understand that this should not be allowed, for the FDA to say, okay, a genetically raised salmon–I call it a Frankenstein fish–should never be allowed in our markets.
    I have a group of individual Alaskans who not only make their living, but they are proud of their product. To have this occur and be promoted by the Federal Government is wrong.
    So I’m trying to save money. But I’m also saying genetically we should never allow it to happen in the fishing industry.
    I yield to the gentleman from California (Mr. Farr).
    Mr. FARR. It’s my pleasure to join you in this amendment. I actually have the best salmon caught in the lower 48 in Monterey Bay. A history of fishing in Monterey, used to be the sardine capital of the world. We’re very sensitive to the fact that people are trying to mess around with the natural process and the Food and Drug Administration is set to approve genetically engineered salmon through a process the FDA uses to approve new drugs for animals. There’s something wrong with the fact that in the approval process our food is now treated the same as animal drugs.
    If approved, genetically engineered salmon would be the first genetically modified animal allowed onto the American dinner plate. Approval of genetically engineered salmon poses serious threats to human health, our fishing communities, and our wildlife stock fish.
    They have no long-term studies on the safety of genetically engineered fish. There could be grave, unintended consequences on human health. Preliminary studies show that the compounds in genetically engineered salmon may be linked to cancer and severe drug allergies.
    We’ve seen that the dominant method of raising salmon in other parts of the world is an open net, these pens in the ocean, and farmed fish escape these facilities every year. The impact of genetically engineered salmon escaping could be detrimental to wild stocks. The list goes on and on and on.
    Our fishing communities are already facing challenges, and genetically engineered salmon would have an additional effect of lowering wild salmon prices, as already seen with normal farmed salmon. Lower prices, combined with declines in wild salmon stocks, would be economically detrimental to our fishermen, our fishing culture, and our coastal communities. It is unnecessary to genetically engineer salmon.
    For these reasons, I support Mr. Young’s amendment that prohibits funds to the FDA to approve genetically engineered salmon.
    Mr. YOUNG of Alaska. I yield back the balance of my time.
    Mr. KINGSTON. Mr. Chairman, I rise in opposition to the amendment.
    The Acting CHAIR. The gentleman from Georgia is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. KINGSTON. I do not have the expertise that my friend from Alaska has on it, but I wanted to say this. Earlier, or actually during the markup, Mr. Rehberg offered an amendment about the FDA using sound science. And I do believe, in this case, the FDA is using sound science in a process that was approved in January 2009, and they are going through a process right now to make sure that this product does not have a problem as respects human consumption. I think that, of course, should be the number one issue.
    There are also some other considerations in terms of food supply, feeding more people, which is something that we all have debated on this bill. And also there is an issue with me about some jobs. So I’m concerned on this because it does seem like a pretty major change in my philosophy of sound science.
    I yield to my friend from Alaska, who I think is out of time.
    Mr. YOUNG of Alaska. I thank the chairman.
    I believe whoever has given him that information is wrong. We have a product made in the United States naturally. Why would we want someone to create a Frankenstein fish to compete against a naturally created God-given gift, and have it promoted by supposedly science?
    There’s no science in this. In fact, they were trying to do and say we have to feed the world with artificial means. And I’m saying, okay. Do it someplace. But don’t you do it with my and our salmon.
    Mr. Farr, listen to me very carefully. This is a very, very important thing because this is the greatest thing we have going, Alaskan natural wild salmon being sold in the market and the benefit, what they can do to have it replaced by a genetic Frankenstein fish. I’m saying this is wrong. All due respect to the chairman.
    What science are they talking about? They have a bunch of people created by the government that’s going to take and put in, I call it traps or nets, and create a fish that’s fed quickly. They say it can grow quicker, we’re home.
    Well, what people are you talking about? Mr. Dicks, you better be listening because you catch most of my salmon. Don’t you forget it. You had better stand on the floor and defend this because you’re in deep trouble if you don’t. I’ll tell you that right now.
    The Acting CHAIR. The gentleman will please direct his comments to the Chair.
    Mr. KINGSTON. Reclaiming my time, I don’t know all the ins and outs of this, but I do know that we’re constantly getting on the FDA to use more sound science, less politics, and to have more transparency, and it appears that that’s what they’re doing here. And they may come out against genetically modified salmon, but they are just looking at it right now to determine.
    And with respect to the food supply, if you could safely produce genetically modified fish, you could feed a great portion of the world with it. So I have some concerns on it, but I did want to oppose the amendment.
    • [Begin Insert]
    Ms. WOOLSEY. Mr. Chair, I rise in strong support of my colleague from Alaska, Mr. Young’s amendment to prohibit funding for the
    [Page: H4241] GPO’s PDF
    Food and Drug Administration to approve genetically engineered salmon.
    The FDA is considering an application to sell patented genetically engineered salmon for human consumption. This fish would be given a gene from an eel-like Pout fish and a growth hormone from the Pacific Chinook salmon, which would allow it to grow twice as fast as traditional Atlantic salmon.
    If the FDA approves the request, it would be the first genetically engineered animal approved for human consumption, and it would open the door for many more.
    Unfortunately, the FDA evaluation process has lacked transparency, failing to provide the public adequate information or sufficient time to provide comment or express concern. And a recent poll found that 91 percent of Americans oppose FDA approval of genetically engineered animals for human consumption.
    Mr. Chair, I’m also concerned about the potential commercial impact of G.E. salmon. Salmon fishermen in my district and many others along the Pacific coast have been devastated in recent years by fishery closures. Last year’s salmon season was limited to just 8 days because of the continued steep decline in the salmon population.
    Because G.E. salmon are more sexually aggressive and resistant to environmental toxins, their escape would pose a catastrophic threat to wild salmon populations.
    If just 60 of these G.E. fish find their way into a population of sixty thousand wild salmon, the wild species would fade into extinction in a matter of decades.
    While its producer claims that genetically engineered salmon would be sterile, FDA’s own documents show that five percent of this G.E. salmon would, in fact, be able to reproduce.
    Each year, millions of farmed salmon escape from open-water nets, threatening wild fish populations. Even if a small number of fertile G.E. salmon spilled into nature, our wild salmon and fisherman would be suffering the consequences for years to come–possibly for evermore.
    I want to thank my good friend Don Young for his hard work on this important issue and his leadership as co-chair of the Congressional Caucus on Wild Salmon ….. even though he considers my salmon “bait” for his fishers.
    I look forward to continuing to work with him and other concerned colleagues to protect our natural fisheries and stop this “frankenfish.”
    I urge my colleagues to support this amendment. For consumer safety, for the purity of our waters, and for the continued viability of our fishing industry ….. we must block funding for the FDA to approve genetically engineered salmon.
    • [End Insert]
    Mr. KINGSTON. I yield back the balance of my time.
    The Acting CHAIR. The question is on the amendment offered by the gentleman from Alaska (Mr. Young).
    The amendment was agreed to.

  237. She can answer better than I can.

    Genetically altered salmon may be able to out compete the origionals if they escape to the wild. At the least, the new salmon would pollute the gene pool. They may not be as able to survive against disease etc than the original fish. In the long run, this could be bad for the salmon. I believe there are pollution and parasite problems too.

  238. Thanks alaskapi. I’ll look at the links when I have time. I agree about reading primary documents. It is why I read a version of the health insurance law when it was a bill. The scary part was most of Congress didn’t read the bill and would not have understand it if they had.

    I like salmon. It is healthy food, and if genetically altered salmon prevents overfishing, that is a good thing. However, I agree with you. I am also anti- transgenic fish. Genetically altered salmon are desirable only if they are raised in the middle of the Sahara or another desert. Even then, as with the line in Jurasic Park, nature will find a way.

  239. alaskapi –

    What is the objection to transgenic fish? I have no experience in this realm.

  240. James- this link should work. Somehow a w in http://www.blah, blah, blah got lost in the link above.
    I disagree with plenty of the pundits about this report because I think they are fixing on things which do or do not appeal to their POV rather than the report itself- which I’m just flat tired of no matter who does it. However, reading primary documents/materials and then a variety of opinions , pro and con and in between makes more sense than just sucking along with whatever the evening news soundbite says something is.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/cea_7th_arra_report.pdf

    ——————-
    This may mean nothing to many or most here but has just torched my shorts lately:
    “H.AMDT.449 (A031) Amends: H.R.2112 Sponsor: Rep Young, Don [AK] (offered 6/15/2011) AMENDMENT PURPOSE: An amendment to prohibit the use of funds made available by this Act to the Food and Drug Administration to approve any application for approval of genetically engineered salmon.”

    This is an amendment which passed the House, authored by my stupenagle Representative.
    It was reported in the news as a BAN on transgenic fish (frankenfish) in the making . Load of horsepunky – it’s an end run around allowing the FDA to finish it’s approval process hearings.
    Who knows whether it will pass the Senate but for now it makes a bunch of House members look like they are doing something useful about genetically engineered food v wild salmon industry issues when they haven’t done doodly squat except propose to close the checkbook .

    If this passes into law, we have not banned transgenic fish , we have refused to directly ban it in favor of a sneak attack on funding to finish the approval process.

    I am anti-transgenic fish for a variety of reasons but am quite concerned about this amendment and House vote.
    I am also concerned about reporting on the amendment being so off base as to bear little resemblance to reality.
    So far the best overall arguments come from a stance I disagree with – the transgenic fish camp.
    There are some problems here because crying the special interest v science thing doesn’t really describe the situation but otherwise the argument is very good. http://reason.com/archives/2011/06/21/congress-moves-to-ban-frankenf

    If anyone has even read this far without their eyes rolling back up in their head- the reason to share this and other things is that I think most perspectives add something to the whole.
    And I don’t buy the narrow gobbeldy-gook $278, 000/job as a FULL description of what we got for our bucks.

  241. jsri opined:

    “And you are not without culpability. About a year ago I posted a relatively mild comment about an issue and you came back with a snotty remark that really pissed me off. And during the past year or so I have noted that this seems to be your common MO when you disagree with people. I find that to be not exactly the way to make friends and influence people.”

    As I like to say, sir, if you have an irony allergy, you are a dead man.

    I see it a little differently. To my POV, I peered in here a little over a year ago to find a very self-satisfied little cadre of “like-minded individuals” as you like to say, who were just lovely – with one exception: they were stuck in a perennial intellectual circle-jerk, recycling the same politics and continuously reinforcing each others’ prejudices. They wouldn’t tolerate any other POV and had developed a little system to descend en masse like harpies and drive out anyone who might have the temerity to disagree with them.

    I don’t much care for bullies – particularly bullies who gang up on others – so I stuck around to have a little fun at their expense. They – except for a very bright poster named Rae – were ill-prepared for someone who can NOT be intimidated and in short order ran away to the Chatty Kitchen to continue their mutual masturbation and talk about the mean old men who had torn their playhouse down. (As lori would say, LOL LOL)

    But I – like you – have tired of the silly game and made overtures several times to bury the hatchet, but got no takers. So be it. Your “snotty remark” comment is of course all in your head; I remember the exchange well. It is you who started the line of enquiry with several nonsensical comments about crashing motorcycles without helmets, etc and I administered a good spanking to you – which you deserved – and you left the field looking pretty foolish. I didn’t start it, Puss, but piss me off and I can surely finish it; and as you know all too well, if you want to play the game called Wise-ass you are not in my league. No brag, just fact. (apologies to Walter Brennan).

    Personally I don’t like the “Aw, eat shit and die!” any more than you do. It is such a waste of good brainpower, and as a Libertarian, I would love to engage libs and conservatives alike in a lively give and take, but it seems there are very few (and I mean about two) on this whole blog who understand the idea of extending respect to those with whom you disagree. (One handles asshats, BTW, by just ignoring them. One cannot – repeat cannot – win. (hint, hint)).

    I will ask you one more time, and I really don’t care which way you respond: do you want to be civil and discuss real issues and leave the sophomoric insults alone? I will if you will. It ain’t easy. You know, we COULD be friends. Your call.

  242. a lil reminder of what is at stake

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/r/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2011/05/14/National-Politics/Graphics/reagan_letter_0514.pdf

  243. Hard to imagine this is even being considered.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/06/tim-scott-impeachment-obama-14-amendment-debt_n_891521.html

  244. For the first few years H&M’s site was drawing an average of almost 1 million hits per year. But even though you seem to believe that your presence and the onslaught by newcomers here has improved the site, the numbers say something quite different. Over the past six months hits are down by one half and many of the posters I became used to seeing are no longer around. The cause and effect should be pretty clear.

    Like all feckless libs, you confuse quantity with quality. What makes you think we haven’t accomplished exactly what we set out to do? Personally, I’ll only be satisfied with I have you ignorant fools under my boot and stomping your head with the steel sole, but running you lying, propagandizing sponges off is the next best thing. :grin:

  245. Response to: PFesser on July 5, 2011 at 12:19 PM

    This has been going on for entirely too long which makes it difficult to know where to start. But since some people don’t seem to be able to give it up, perhaps a different perspective may help latecomers who have been left to wonder what the hell is going on.

    When many of us were first attracted to H&M’s site several years ago, a community of like minded individuals were the initial responders. Soon a community of people showed up regularly who would exchange ideas about subjects other than but also including politics. Though some differences arose, for the most part they were settled amicably and without rancor.

    But, about a year ago, several new posters arrived who immediately began challenging previous posters with insults and demanding that they explain the reasons for their beliefs. I don’t know about the sort of people you deal with but most folks I know are put off by in-you-face challenges and usually withdraw rather than be drawn into endless harrangues.

    For the first few years H&M’s site was drawing an average of almost 1 million hits per year. But even though you seem to believe that your presence and the onslaught by newcomers here has improved the site, the numbers say something quite different. Over the past six months hits are down by one half and many of the posters I became used to seeing are no longer around. The cause and effect should be pretty clear.

    And you are not without culpability. About a year ago I posted a relatively mild comment about an issue and you came back with a snotty remark that really pissed me off. And during the past year or so I have noted that this seems to be your common MO when you disagree with people. I find that to be not exactly the way to make friends and influence people.

    Am I guilty of the same behavior? No question about it. Do I apologize for it? Yes, but. I refuse to apologize to those whose characterizations of people here are dishonest or hateful. A couple of the more recent posters here have been particularly adept at this tactic. Unfortunately they don’t recognize themselves.

    So, I expect that this site will eventually disappear, a victim of its successes and its excesses, as most of its former members find more agreeable sites elsewhere.

    You will also be glad to know that these will most likely be my final words on the subject

  246. James, it is why Liberalism is a disease and the one of the greatest threats our nation will ever face. You didn’t do any of the things NOP accused you of. But he/she/it found an angle and spun what you said into something that it was not to further his/her/its own ends. This attack was bereft of any facts. honesty, or integrity, and was put forth for no other purpose but to paint you in a bad light.

  247. Thanks Pfessor and Noah. I don’t understand how people can miss read simple words. I was clear about citing their hypocracy and wrote we could survive without Obama or Bono.Suddenly I was making our “hangnail” worse than Katrina when in realty it was nothing at all. Maybe English is NOP’s second language.

    The latest crisis is an Exon-Mobile pipe line broke on the flooding Yellowstone River. Authorities theorize trees moving down stream with the flood water knocked a hole in the pipe line. The oil may have reached North Dakota but it will be deluted when it reaches us.

    To paraphrase Teena (Palin) Fey, I can see water from our attic.

  248. This is from memory, so I have no sources to site.

    New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin failed to implement his evacuation plan, and he delayed the emergency order until less than a day before landfall. Manditory evacuations made no provision for people without cars, the homeless, or sick.He refused to use school buses which might have rescued vulnerable people because of possible insurance liability and the city’s inability to find bus drivers. A parish south of New Orleans evacuated their citizens with busses and cars.

    The local government sent people to the Super Dome and left them without sufficient food or water. Refugees were basically left alone without much government help. News reporters were able to find and interview people in the Super Dome. Where were city officials? It wouldn’t have been much, but they could have created a food drive in neighboring towns and even raided their own refrigerators. Some people did disregard city orders to remain in that man-made hell. A network news reporter interviewed families under a highway overpass. They were walking out of town.

    FEMA brought food and water to the area early on, but they miscalculated the need and the supplies were gone too soon. They hired firefighters to help with the rescue, but kept them in classes teaching topics like sexual harrassment and the history of FEMA. I believe the classes lasted for two days.

    The Coast Guard, two out of state sherrifs, and a Canadian contingent didn’t wait to navigate federal to loal red tape. They ignored it and sent help before FEMA arrived.

    Gov. Blanco dithered and was late to decide to ask for federal help. The government could not use its resouces until the state asked.

    Some claimed National Guard levels were down because of the Iraq war and because some schools had hindered their recruitment efforts.

    Part of New Orleans is below sea level. Some Corps of Engineers money was diverted to other purposes. The main force of Katrina struck east of New Orleans and saved the city from more serious damage . The Today Show’s post storm report bordered on congratulary for the city. Then, the levies broke. Government officials should have known burst levies were a possibility and planned for a flood.

    Some said President Bush called the governor and mayor to ask them to declare a manditory evacuation. Nagin denied he got a call. Blanco said she had spoken to Bush. Whether or not Bush asked , they could have issued the order and saved lives.

    Our county held several meetings and told people in vulnerable areas. “The lights will go off on a certain date. Mail deliveries will stop. You stay at your own risk because we won’t have the people to rescue you.” New Orleans officials could have done the same several days before Katrina made landfall.

    An organization who’s name i have forgotten researched the disaster and concluded that local governments were more flexible and effective than the city, state, and federal governments.

    New Orleans also suffered from gang turf wars, looting, and a disfunctional police department. Other police officers suffered such stress that one or two killed themselves.

    In end, local governments denied their mistakes and placed the blame on the federal government. Slanted news reports and shows like Meet the Press reinforced the claims. Democrats used the disaster as a political issue against Repubilcans.

    I never claimed our disaster was as bad as Katrina or the tornado outbreaks. My only point was to illustrate the hyprocacy of concerned celebraties and Obama’s foolish refusal to make a symbolic visit and speech as presidents tradtionally do. He might have won some votes.

  249. amen

  250. “but that you could equate your immediate situation that to 8, 9, 10 pound infants in better that a hundred degree weather without water for days sickens me.”

    Your sickness is of your own making, since he never said that. Try some Dramamine.

    I for one am loath to criticize someone – or minimize his loss – from the comfort of my warm, dry home – while he fights just to KEEP his.

  251. No One’s Puppet isn’t actually bothered by anything you said James. It is just a cheap shot by a low life. We have dozens of posts by this individual to show that this is just his/her/its MO. No one but this person took what you were saying beyond anything but you conveying your experience. Any other President in a time of crisis like this would have taken time out of his golf and b-ball schedule to take 10 minutes to take note of what is going on. It doesn’t have to be the greatest tragedy to strike the US for you to feel it warranted at least a head nod from the Messiah. Were there any morality in this coven of Liberals they might be at least concerned about the Messiah’s 30+ broken promises to our nations poor, disabled, sick, elderly and veterans. Like the race card, it is more a tactic than genuine care for any other human being.

  252. NOP, I never equated our misfortune with what happened in New Orleans toward the Florida Panhandle. I compared the reaction of liberal entertainers, the president and others to the Katrina disaster, the tornadoes, the fire, and our flood. When you compared our crisis to a relative hang nail, I showed it was much worse, more an economic than physical disaster. I also showed that our local governments were superior to the New Orleans variety. That includes most of the tornado survivors.

    I submit to you that local authorities contributed to the horror of babies dying of thirst, dead bodies lying in the Super Dome and other tragedies. That’s what sickens me. More later. Its bed time.

  253. James, I get that it is going to hit you in the pocketbook this fall, and I am sorry for that, but that you could equate your immediate situation that to 8, 9, 10 pound infants in better that a hundred degree weather without water for days sickens me. The local government or state government could take care of it, how? Their, the Louisiana National Guards’ helicopters were in Iraq, so how were they suppose to drop bottled water to the people?

  254. your right pfessor. Im finished. He will never argue honestly and goes for the cheap shot at every turn.

  255. I’ll bite PFessor. If I can “endorse” Michele Bachmann to make it interesting for NOP, I can second your observation.

    Maybe they could look up the Bickersons staring Don Ameche and Francis Langford and use some of their funny lines.

    “Palin with brains.” I like that. Obviously I don’t support either of them.

  256. If you want to see a pretty good capsule summary on Michele Bachmann:

    Confession: I lifted this from Rutherford’s blog

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/michele-bachmanns-holy-war-20110622

    If you ain’t scared of Bachmann now, you will be after reading the above. Think of her as a Palin with brains.

  257. jsri and Noah – No offense to either of you, but you guys are IMHO looking kind of bad. It’s gotten down to “Ah, eat shit.”

    C’mon dudes – some stinging repartee is good fun, but man…

    Anybody else want to weigh in, or are you guys going to leave me twisting in the wind, as Erlichman would say? …

  258. Thankyou jsri.

    This flood affects land from southern Canada to the Gulf. We are leaving the emergency phase and beginning maintainance as the river stabilizes. So far, about 180 acres of our land is under water, and it will remain so through fall. The Corps of Engineers will be releasing 160,000 cfs until at least August 23.

    If you have time, google

    KFAB.com and or Missouri River Flooding 2011-Lee Valley inc. Page one of the Lee Valley site has a photo of part of our farm. The site has not been updated since June 29 because of the holiday.

  259. I don’t have to write in their support. My physical support is offered on a daily basis. But I doubt if you would understand the distinction.

  260. It is obvious that your racist hatred….
    jsri , now the true you shines out. You are not looking for a political discussion or an intellectual one for that matter. I am sure there is a word that would describe you more accurately but a piece of shit will have to do for now. I have not ever made any racial connotations about anyone including this President. This is the card your kind plays when your intellect fails to support your failed arguments. The Messiah’s race is irrelevant to the damage he is doing to this country. His policy and the effects it has on this nation would be the same if he were white, black, or orange. I cannot help but laugh at this pathetic attempt to paint me in a bad light. I take it as a huge compliment that you have gotten this desperate.

    As for the wife of the Messiah. You then must sight all historical counterparts to any argument you make by your ridiculous line of thinking. Please tell me what business of this nation was the wife of the Messiah on when she and her mother took air force 2, a military transport and $800,000 of our tax payer dollars. Was there some noble cause she was championing? At the times of the other first ladies in history, were we in the middle of an economic collapse, record unemployment, spending trillions of failed projects? Was the country $14,361,678,223,969..89 in debt? Please explain to me how you would feel justified taking a trip of this cost on the tax payers dime when the Messiah has over 30+ broken promises to our nations poor, disabled, sick, elderly and veterans. I am still noting these group of individuals still doesn’t matter to you in the least, at least not enough to write a single word in support of their plight.

  261. James
    Sorry I haven’t been able to follow the floods, I’ve been somewhat indisposed lately but your goldfish comment was funny.

  262. Starting with the jet age just about all first ladies made good will trips abroad, although Nancy Reagan spent most of her time shuttling back and forth within the USA. She also spent a bucket of cash renovating the White House. As far as I can determine, none of this came out of Ronnie’s pocket.

    Laura Bush made trips to Zambia, Mozambique, Mali, Senegal, Haiti and Burma, all at taxpayer’s expense.

    Hilary Clinton made trips to Portugal, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, China, and Brazil at taxpayer’s expense.

    Yet in your run-on anti Michelle Obama diatribe I see no reference to previous first lady travels.

    It is obvious that your racist hatred allows you to ignore all other travels and focus exclusively on those of Mrs. Obama. Your run-on list is obviously a cut and paste from some RW org that shares your hatred of the President and the first lady and should be viewed as such.

  263. NOP, here is why we will never have to wait for the Mexican Army to come to our rescue.

    A day or two after the Corps of Engineers warned us of the disaster, a retired Corps of Engineers hydrological engineer and current farmer decided protect the neighborhood. He called some farmers, contractors, the DOt, and manager of the Desoto Bend refuge. They worked twenty four hours a day to repair old levys and build thirty miles of new dikes. They aquired a pump and patrolled the dikes to fix leaks.

    On the weekend of June 26 after a heavy thunderstorm, a dike broke and sent a wall of water into several thousand acres of previously dry areas. The back water made water behind the dikes deeper than on the river side. The group asked the Corps of Engineers for permission to open the dike so water could equalize,. The Corps gave them no answer for a couple of days and finally told them they were on their own. It was a private dike and the Corps had no jurisdiction.

    The group hired a licensed contractor and on Friday, with little warning, they blew the dike. People are jumpy as it is, and they worried about more flooding especially of the nuclear power plant down stream. It made a sensational news story, and a county attourny hinted darkly charges might be filed. The county determined that the group did nothing wrong, though they should have given local governments and the news media more than five minutes warning.

    They were afraid the governments would delay opening the dike until after further study. The group decided it was better to do it and appologize instead of asking permission. I know some of those people.

    This is just another example supporting the North Dakota writer’s saying we live in a different culture than folks like you.

  264. In case someone still doesn’t understand my point, we can live without an appearance by Obama or a Bono concert, but we know hyprocracy when we see it.

    Craig, as delurkergurl, PFessor, Noah and others wrote, “hang in there.” Its possible Valery is realizing how alone she really is and that she might die. When death is no longer an abstraction, it plays with your mind. I respect you and your strength in such an unexpected crisis. Do whatever you can to take care of yourself. If talking to a friend or someone else helps, try it.

    alaskapi, you are a good person. I haven’t forgotten what you are going through either. Our computer didn’t like the link you posted, so I didn’t get to see it. Obama adimitted it was hard to find “shovel ready jobs’ and joked about it. Dr. Ernie Goss a local economist said on KFAB Omaha a few minutes ago that the stimulus failed because it focused more on governments than on private enterprise.

    I agree we need to repair our infrastructure and the stimulus helped in some cases. After this flood, we will need considerable work. However, government employed workers do not create wealth. Their wages help the local economies, and spread wealth to other people and businesses as you wrote. Many of those jobs last as long as the government can pay the wages. The stimulus law failed to create the conditions which would actually make self-sustaining jobs and new wealth. I’m not denegrating the good which came from the stimulus law–just its ultimate failure to create conditions for more private sector jobs than it did. That was Obama’s stated intent.

    Oto Katz, don’t hate anyone.It hurts you more than the object of your hatred.

  265. Jsri, we think we will stock our basement with gold fish and eat them when they get large enough. That will give me more on line time with you.

    The Bush administration’s FEMA made many mistakes. It took Bush several days to realize the enormamity of the disaster. I believe he was at a fund raiser when the levy burst and it took him two days to make a public reaction. . His “heck of a job Brownie…” comment showed how out of touch he was. But then, he tried to make up for his neglect.

    However, NOP ignores the incompetence of local Democratic officials from the governor on down. Local governments have the first responsibility to deal with emergencies, and they failed. Liberal Democrats share much of the blame for what happened, but it was easier to bash Republicans because it made a great campaign issue. A local news paper reported that one of the most efficient entities giving aid in early days was Wal Mart.

    We didn’t need the Mexican Army
    here or in the tornado zones. We took care of ourselves. The Corps of Engineers told us what might happen, and we used our own judgment on how to cope. We built our own dikes around our farmsteads and moved possesions to high ground. LIkewise, tornado victims didn’t have to wait for the Mexican Army to repair the damage. They and local governments are doing it themselves.

    I repeat. The public reaction of the Obama administration and its allies show them to be hypocrites. The tornado outbreaks and fires were comparable to Hurricane Katrina, and yet, we heard little or nothing from those people. Of course, the government is helping, but the symbolism is striking. I still suspect some of the outrage over Katrina was staged to do political harm to Bush and the Republicans. Obama could have done himself a political favor by visiting the flood zone when he was already in eastern Iowa. People do notice symbolism.

    Uaw tradesman, so far, there has been no looting or violence. Clay Jenkinson of The Thomas Jefferson Hour wrote “Squeezing Summer Joy from a Sodden Prairie.” “Our public officials have been uniformaly outstanding, honest, upbeat, and tireless in the face of a crisis they never thought they would have to lead us through…

    There has been infinintely more selflessness than selfishness…

    We North Dakotans cannot help thinking even though we are too decent to say it out loud that this is decidely not New Orleans. This crisis has brought out in people of Bismark, Mandan, and Minot the triumph rather than collapse of the human spirit. We are not pointing our finger at faraway Washington DC and wailing ‘help us!’ The most we will say is ‘help us help ourselves,” We all know we are going to get through this. We’re the grandchildren of people who got through much worse, people who gave us our resourcefullness and patience, and gumption.”

  266. I’m a liberal, didn’t get the memo. Who am I supposed to hate?

  267. No One’s Puppet 30+ broken promises by your Messiah to our nations poor, disabled, sick, elderly and veterans. I’ve noted it doesn’t bother you at all, at least not enough to motivate a single word of support for these people. Again, another Liberal who does not have the mental capacity to argue a persons ideas and has to go for the poster. There was no point to that post other than a bitter and ugly person spewing hate, as is Liberal tradition.

  268. I’ll listen to James’ complaints about a Presidential visit or a Bono concert, when the Mexican Army arrives in Iowa, marching on foot from Mexico City, they were the first responders to the disaster in New Orleans. What a disgraceful day for our country that day.

  269. Yes, the government is compensated at least for the food for any guest of the President, a little fact you tried to hide

    jsri, could you show me how I hid anything? Do you have any idea how pathetic you make yourself look by making these statements? All you do is show people how completely inept and dishonest you are making claims you cannot possibly back up. And fyi kiddo, I made no mention of food. Where do you come up with this nonsense? I have an issue with wife of messiah and mother in law of messiah spending $800,000 of our tax dollars for a little romp across the world when other people are suffering.

    As for smearing you Messiah, I guess maybe that is where we get the answer to all this fantasy that you are making up. Just some off the wall crack pot, religions zealot whose false god is being attacked. I don’t have to try and smear him, he does fine smearing himself. I posted over 30 broken promises and have sources to back them all. Step up to the plate and take them on if your able. Otherwise crawl back to the kitchen with the coven.

  270. I went back and read helen’s post…….Iowa and Katrina have been brought up and ………..”It’s called honor Mr. Hannity, Mr. Beck and Mr. Van Susteren… you jackasses. Obama understands it.”
    NO HE DOESN’T

  271. I was going to say
    NOP=asshat
    but then
    jrsi beat her out…..
    so James…
    tell us about all the looting and raping going on there…..

  272. Noah: Time to give it up.

    Your attempt to sully President Obama’s reputation by a deliberate slur failed because of your ineptitude. Live with it. And give up all the backpedaling.

    Yes, the government is compensated at least for the food for any guest of the President, a little fact you tried to hide. It took me about three minutes to find out. You can do the same if you want to give it a try. And other mother-in-laws have resided there in the past, including Mamie Eisenhower’s mother and Bess Truman’s mother.

    It would seem that a family values guy like yourself would see the benefit of the arrangement but then again, I suspect family values is a totally foreign concept to you.

  273. Craig- adding best wishes along with others.
    Please remember, as long as Helen and Margaret put up with us all stopping by and having all manner of (and lack of manners ) conversation there is a place here to voice your own feelings and concerns. It’s hard on the care provider/partner/family in times of great illness in so many ways often forgotten in the overall picture of the situation.
    Take good care of yourself, do what you can, talk to others when you feel down.
    Best wishes neighbor.

  274. Craig, this is a difficult subject for me because it has hit close to home twice for me. At age 14 my youngest sister was found to have a brain tumor. She fought it until 2 weeks before her 16th birthday. From my personal experience all I can tell you is tough it out. Be whatever she needs you to be. One day it might be a shoulder, the next a punching bag. Pain, especially ongoing pain like this does things to a person. It did my soul a world of good knowing I didn’t succumb to the anger and despair I sometimes felt. If the worst should happen and she passes on, you can never take back the things you didn’t do for her when you could. Things may be hard now, but compared to having to live the rest of your life with regret in my opinion is far far worse.

  275. “And now she is also pushing me away. I feel sorta like beaten down..no matter what I do to say to her that she looks good or that things are working out..I get sarcastic retorts..and I’ve just about had it. Still love her and here for her, but Its a pity party and I don’t want any part of it.”

    Craig –
    That’s really common – even the usual – but it plays hell on the families. She understands perfectly her situation I’m afraid. That’s why doctors should be immune from ever getting sick – you can’t blow sunshine up their backsides; they know the real score. Call me any time day or night if you want.

  276. and just in case you are as naive as I know you are, we all know your sudden inability to engage in conversation is I blasted your Messiah out of the water and you are unable to articulate any kind of a defense. Just the same as why delurkergurl and her coven fled to the kitchen. Guess when you have had as many houses fall on you as they have you get gun shy.

  277. saw = say

  278. jsri , i see so you want to be able to comment on what I saw but not have to be held accountable. I stand by my original statement and brand you a coward. So be it. I will continue however to hold you accountable for what you say. As for an overinflated opinion of myself, like your fear of having to admit you are wrong, I think you are projecting yourself onto me kiddo.

  279. Being a caregiver is tough, Craig. Hang in there. There’s probably a psychological reason for the distance Val’s putting between you. Just remember that no matter how hard she makes it on you, she has it worse. You’ll both come through this stronger.

  280. Noah

    I realize that your wildly inflated opinion of your self would suffer to know that you are the last person in the world that I would want to have a sustained conversation with but that’s just life. Too much like conversing with a child having a perpetual temper tantrum.
    Actually the brain transplant is working very well. At least better than the one they found for you in the hog slop.

  281. jsri, once again your ramblings are without any coherent substance, but I am sure they mean something to you at least. For the record I have not backpedaled on anything, I have just tried to engage you in conversation, and even at the most basic level you have failed. Maybe that brain transplant you were in for didn’t go as well as expected?

  282. Thanks to all..for your thoughts and well wishes alaskapi ,James and Helen in Ca.
    Good retort there PFessor from MASH. Loved that “movie”.
    I come here to escape some time to watch and listen..don’t have energy for fighting anymore.
    Val’s chemo has not changed James…Its just that now it has finally hit home..
    And now she is also pushing me away. I feel sorta like beaten down..no matter what I do to say to her that she looks good or that things are working out..I get sarcastic retorts..and I’ve just about had it. Still love her and here for her, but Its a pity party and I don’t want any part of it.
    Have a safe 4th out there. And do unto others…….

  283. James- the report you are referring to is here.
    Different people are getting different takes on it. The simple formula used to say that each job cost us $278,000 ignores many, many things

    http://ww.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/cea_7th_arra_report.pdf

    not the least of which is the public investment outlay to repair, rebuild, and add to infrastructure. After years and years of deferring maintenance on public facilities all across the country we have done some much needed work which has value beyond the dollars expended to pay people to do it.
    In the transportation sector alone here

    http://www.dot.state.ak.us/econstim/map.shtml

    we have repaired, rebuilt, or expanded transportation facilities we all use. Some of our transportation issues are very different than elsewhere- ferry and air are the way of it here in Southeast, air and limited rail and road systems are the norm further north with so many areas only served by air regularly and barges a couple times a year.
    In my area the dollars those employed by the stim work make circulate roughly 4 times in the local economy so there is value there too.
    We got a decent deal for our outlay here- on multiple fronts. I hope other areas can say the same if they start really looking at public investment projects.

  284. Noah

    You amuse me, in a perverse sort of way. If you could pedal forward as fast as you backpedal, you could win the Tour de France in record time.

    James:

    Isn’t there a sump pump somewhere that needs your attention? Go for it.

  285. It is tragic to see government waste at this level. Can you imagine if Obama had taken GW’s approach and just wrote a check and gave it to the people directly instead of big business like Obama did, how much this would have helped the common man?

  286. According to the President’s Council of Economic Advisers report released on Friday, each new or saved job cost the stimulus program and we tax payers $278,000. per job. It would have been cheaper to give each unemployed a check.

  287. I remember Noah’s post. It was an honest mistake. Jsri’s comments about my writing style after he said he doesn’t read what I write still show he lied.

    I saw something more uplifting today. Flood water is now spreading toward us from the North. Water has crossed and blocked several county roads since Friday. A road a mile and a half northwest of us was partly submerged yesterday. Someone dug a foot and a half dike to stop the water from flowing more than half way across the road. Of course, it is a futile effort, but that little dike illustrates the human spirit when facing adversity..

  288. jsri, one of the things I will miss about having you here is making so easy to shoot you down, simple minds are often the most fun. Lets begin with the obvious.

    And when someone called you on your deliberate distortion

    Give me your top twp proofs that it was deliberate if you please. We both know you have none so this would be your deliberate distortion or the truth making ASSumptions.

    you tried to put the blame on the reader

    Show me where I blamed the reader? I skimmed an article and mistook mother for mother-in-law. I was stating it was probably the mother-in-law rather than the mother, by default admitting I might have been mistaken. Very easy mistake #1. #2 being the mother-in-law does not invalidate my statement of it being wrong for the Messiah’s wife to spend $800,000 tax dollars while the rest of us are suffering out here. Of course it is your political party so you are blind to blatant misuse of tax payer dollars.

    You see kiddo, I have no problem admitting I am wrong, when it happens. It is the internet child, what is to fear here? What harm do I suffer admitting when I make a mistake? Answer: none. I think you are projecting your fears onto me. Fortunately I grew up a long time ago, maybe one day you will do sport.

    In fact, it is the sort of service that should be available for all citizens and one of my new missions will be assist in making that happen.

    Maybe you could start with the guy who robbed a bank for $1 so he could get the medical attention he needed?

    After that maybe you can help Obama keep some 30+ broken promises to our nations poor, disabled, sick, elderly and veterans. I’ve noted it doesn’t bother you at all, at least not enough to motivate a single word of support for these people.,

  289. Okay Noah. I scrolled backwards and found your quote and here it is from June 30.

    “I don’t know of another President that has done this, maybe some have, but I was a bit astonished to find that the Messiah has his mother living with them at the White house. Wonder what that is costing tax payers?”

    And when someone called you on your deliberate distortion (or is it an inept distortion) you tried slithering away like a snake with the following

    “mother in law then maybe kiddo?”

    Since you were caught with your pants down, you tried to put the blame on the reader instead of manning up and admitting you were wrong. I’d say that’s a pretty good description of a coward.

    And Pfesser53 on July 2

    jsri –

    I’m sorry about your illness. Perhaps your anger over your own situation is coloring your perceptions. Just a little, maybe?

    Maybe if you are a little less angry in your posts, others will be too.

    Pfesser, your swing for the fences was nothing more that a pop up to the catcher.

    I’m not at all angry with my medical situation. In fact I’ve just been through a series of procedures that demonstrate the capabilities of our medical services and I couldn’t be more pleased. In fact, it is the sort of service that should be available for all citizens and one of my new missions will be assist in making that happen. How is yet to be determined but being in my situation has given me some valuable insights.

  290. having chewed a little more on jsri’s post some, Ive come to the conclusion this person is a coward of the first order. Post…spew some hate at those who have gotten the intellectual best of him/her/it at every turn then state they are not coming back. True character came out at the end, not that we didn’t already know.

    I think with the exception of a precious few, most Liberals don’t buy their own BS agenda. Why else would they continuously launch these personal attacks when their beliefs should be able to stand on their own, that is, if they had any merit. Since they don’t and its all about personal need and greed, they attack the poster rather than the idea.

  291. jsri, is that the best you can do?

    Your “mind dumps” have proven to be less than adequate even for bad fiction. You wrote you don’t read what I write, so how would you know if my posts wouldn’t pass a junior high test unless you read them? You have defacto admitted you lie. Thus, you are accusing Noah of what you do.

    You left my “favorites list” a long time ago.

    “Goddammit, Hot Lipes, Resign your goddam commission!”

    Make my day.

  292. jsri –

    Oh, and one more thing:

    “This site has become a total wasteland and has now been removed from my favorites list.”

    Forgive me; I will presume to speak for many commenters here:

    Goddammit, Hot Lips, RESIGN your goddamn commission!

  293. jsri –

    I’m sorry about your illness. Perhaps your anger over your own situation is coloring your perceptions. Just a little, maybe?

    Maybe if you are a little less angry in your posts, others will be too.

  294. I post a lot jsri, so why not be…i don’t know…precise and less vague and come up with what you think it is I might have lied about. I know being precise is sticking your neck out and making you accountable and doesn’t give you any wiggle room.

  295. Good Grief!

    Been in the hospital for the past week and a half only to return to find that the same old hatred and vitriol is spewing forth from the same tiresome characters. Noah, you should be ashamed of your self getting caught in a blatant and bold faced lie about the Obamas but I‘ve also got to make note of your gall in trying to pass it off as a misunderstanding by the readers. Why are you so evil?

    And James:

    I see that your usual mind dumps are no more interesting than they usually are. If they were answers to junior high school essay tests you’d fail just about every time.

    This site has become a total wasteland and has now been removed from my favorites list.

  296. Craig, my best to you and Valerie. Just to let you know that there is hope at the end of the looooooooong chemo/radiation tunnel. I finished the last of two separate chemo treatments (after a double radical mastectomy in July) in Nov. 2010, started radiation 5 days a week mid-Dec. and finished it late Jan. this year. Thought I would not survive radiation I was burned so bad, it was horrible, much worse than chemo.

    Today, I have my hair back, I’m able to swim three time a week in aqua aerobics and walk every day 30+ minutes. I could not have done any of that before I was diagnosed with cancer.. The difference in my life since February is 180 degrees. So both of you keep the FAITH as it does get better. My prayers are with you all and your family. Hang in there!!!

    Helen Lee-Bryant
    Santa Rosa, CA

  297. I forgot to type my name.

  298. alaskapi, I’m glad you did it. Revelations like that make you more than words on a screen. I agree about arguing politics. It is just a game like chess or checkers. Our daughter was home from college and we were arguing loudly for a couple of hours. My wife got tired of it and told us to stop. Our daughter said “but Mom, nobody at college argues like Dad does.” He probably thought the same of you.

    My father in law never praised my wife, and she spent a good part of her young life achieving so that maybe the next big thing would impress him. Years later, my wife learned how proud her father was of his daughter. He spent much of his time bragging about her to his customers. She was the apple of his eye, and she never knew until she was grown with children of her own.

    One of my most vivid memories is the first time my wife’s father didn’t remember who she was.Up till then, his daughter was the one person he recognized. My wife took it in good humor and finally revived her father’s memory. My wife and our son left before our daughter and me. When we left the room, we saw our fifteen year old son holding his mother as she cried.

    “It was just an old hand me down Ford
    with three speeds on the column
    and an old dent in the door
    a young boy, two hands on the wheel
    I can;t replace how it made me feel
    And I would press that clutch
    and I’d keep it right
    and he’d say just a little slower son
    you’re doing just fine
    But I was Mario Andretti
    when Daddy let me drive

    I’m grown up now
    three daugters of my own
    One day they will reach back in their file
    pull out the memory
    think if me and smile
    and he’d say ‘turn it left
    straighten up. your doing just fine”
    It was just a little valley
    but I was high on the mountain
    when Daddy let me drive”

    Allen Jackson in honor of his late father.

  299. Elsie, my friend, I did not intend to bring sadness here but I guess I did.
    Some days I feel sad, some days I feel angry, some days I just need to sit a spell and rest but most days I have hope we can all surround Dad with love and allow him some continuance of dignity as he struggles with losing his sense of self and purpose.
    It is his struggle which makes me the saddest. I can lay my own sense of loss to the side most days- there will be a time to take that up fully later on.
    I think I was trying to say that all too often political differences can become a thing in and of themselves and divorced from everyday life and people. Didn’t do a very good job of it :-)
    Dad and I used to argue about economics, international relations, and suchlike all the time but we talked and listened to each other about the things which touch us most closely- family, gender role changes, religion, community, self-reliance. I have come to think of the latter as a series of letters written as from afar ending in the discovery that we were actually sitting on the same couch next to each other in so many respects.
    Pfesser-
    The greatest gift from my Dad, as I’ve said before, was the allowing me to be myself. I grew to understand many of the difficulties with that when I was a parent myself and trying to do the same.
    I got my britches in a bunch when I was a teen and was whining at a friend about the 2 times Dad had been unfair to me.
    The friend looked at me and laughed. Told me I had no clue about fairness if I’d only had to deal with unfairness twice and to get over my sorry self . Her folks were locked in an endless struggle for power in their marraige and used the kids as pawns in their battles- it was so awful it was obvious to all of us even as self absorbed teens.
    Somewhere in there I began considering what fights were worthwhile and what to let slide. It’s been a long process and I’m not sure I’ll have it sorted out before I go :-)

  300. alaskapi –

    It’s really tough. When he was alive, my Dad and I had a lot of arguments and misunderstandings, as did my brother (now dead) and I. At times I think I should have just let it go, as my Mom suggested – and I did a lot of it. But you can’t let yourself become a doormat, and that’s exactly what aggressive individuals will do to you if you don’t stand up for yourself at some point.

    Maybe the high schools, in between such essentials as bicycle safety and watching in-class movies, could teach some things like how to balance a checkbook, raise kids or even how to resolve conflict constructively. It sure would have made my life a lot better.

  301. alsakai, I feel the same sadness for you that Elsie feels. I repeat what she wrote. My father in law took the same trip, and it was hard. The only bit of comfort I will attempt is to remind you that in some way, both of your parents live on in you.

  302. I saw alaskapi dropped by. My first thought was that it’s always good to see the latest thoughts from this good friend of Helen’s.

    Tonight, alaskapi, I feel a real sadness for you, your ma and your dad. I believe your wisdom and the calm way of looking at things that you share with us here are largely the result of a lifetime shared with you by your loving family. I just wish I could comfort you somehow, Old Friend, as your dad moves into this next phase of his life.

  303. LOL James-
    My conservative pop and I argued a lot about politics until a very short time ago
    Ma sent us both down from the table one night because she said we had crossed out of the bounds of civility and besides we were both wrong :-)
    Mostly we had great fun at it .
    As Dad , at almost 90, moves into Alzheimers now, I miss him tipping his head back, squinting, and saying, “ah, horsepunky!” when confronted with a preposterous notion of any sort, not hollering, not angry, just sure, as much as I miss his
    twinkling eyes and deep chuckle.
    And ma was right all those years ago- things have mostly fallen in the middle of what Dad and I thought they should oughta be but I’m not telling her I see that.

  304. Thank you Elsie. No the pictures don’t do what is happening on the surface justice. It was a shock when the Corps of Engineers around June 1 told our towns we had to evacuate in as little as two weeks because up to over ten feet of water would cover the area until possibly January.The innundation maps were scary because unlike me, most people had never been in a flood. Activity was feverish as people hauled grain, built dikes, and filled sandbags.

    Then most of them moved after power companies turned off the lights and the postal service discontinued mail deliveries in some places. August 23 will be a red letter day, because that is when the Corps plan to reduce the dams’ water releases.

    PFessor, I assume the same about NOP. Its why I gave links so anyone can see for him/herself what is happening.

    An Omaha television station reported that a quarter of area businesses are suffering financially because of the flood. They also interviewed many confused travelers from as far away as Seattle who learned their GPS programs didn’t account for the detours. They are buying road maps.

    Meanwhile much of the West is having some of the best summer skiing in years.

  305. James –

    I’m not sure what happened with NOP, but looking back, there are at least a hundred times I wish I could take back what I said, so I’m just going to put it down to a brain fart.

    Happens to everybody.

    Onward.

  306. James, those aerial photos are really awful. And they don’t even begin to tell the tales of any real part of the anguish and sadness on the ground, do they? Take care.

    Craig, I send some virtual red-white-and-blue sparklers, and good wishes, to you and Val that you both get through all this medical care, and come out on the other side with good health and many more years of happiness together. Hang in there. And, remember to take care of yourself so that you have the energy to take care of Val.

  307. Thanks Noah. I wish someone from the fire zones could tell us what it is like there. That’s what I’m trying to do- to share what is not in the papers..

    Alaskapi, the essence of the smile reached me. It felt peaceful. Thanks. I’m friends with many people who disagree with me politically and religously. Such things don’t mean much to me. I hope we could be friends if we lived near each other.My father-in law, a liberal Democrat and I had loud political arguments, but it was all in fun. Sometimes, we’d switch sides to make it interesting. I miss him.

    PFessor, you asked about how the flood may affect the local economy. Dr. Earny Goss, a University of Nebraska economist said the economy is slipping, and he is worried about a local recession in the future. Problem areas are the national economy, the flood, and rising cost of transportation and energy which is related to he flood. Hangnail my foot!!.

  308. Completely lacking self-awareness, Noah repeatedly calls the kettle black. Comedy gold.

  309. Craig-
    Sending very best wishes to you and Val. Chemo does come with a price. It takes a lot of work to stay ahead of all that .
    Somewhere I have a photo of my ma from 4th of July many years ago . Her skin was pale and her cheeks sunken from the chemo she was undergoing at the time. She couldn’t tolerate much in the way of food then except for smoothie concoctions her oncologist’s nutritionist had her making.
    She had had the last wisps of her hair moussed in spikes and great swatches of red white and blue painted across her forehead. She looked like the Statue of Liberty without hair :-)
    She had a huge smile in that pic. She enjoyed the town celebration and family get together very much that day even though it all wore her down so.
    Trying to send the essence of that smile across the “tubes’ in hoping the very best for you two.
    As usual I disagree with you politically, and James too, but none of it matters enough today to get flapped about.

    Thanks Elsie! Leah does good work- good to see you are tuned into her work too, Pfesser.
    Be safe James.

  310. James, Put aside NOP’s ignorance and hate. Many of us here appreciate updates from someone that is actually there rather than relying on the media to give us the story. In fact I find it very valuable to compare your experience and contrast it to what the media says.

  311. Craig, I have wondered about you and Valery. I ‘m sorry. I hope this is something she and you can surrount. Is her reaction normal for the treatment she is recieving.

    NOP, this isn’t about Bush or Obama. It concerns peoples’ use of disasters for political gain. Bush flew over the disaster area to avoid hurting the rescue effort, and the press excoriated him for not caring. Some even said Bush hated black people. Yes, a presidential visit is merely a symbol. Until now, visiting disaster areas and feeling our pain was part of the job. Bill Clinton was a master of the quivering lip.

    Given the criticism of Bush for being slow to visit and the silence surrounding Obama’s absence one must conclude a double standard is in play. Bush ordered up what ever it took to help Katrina victims, and still his critics excorriated him. Two Iowa politicians asked Obama to visit the flood zone, but he refused. How else would one explain the difference?

    No, our plight shouldn’t be Obama’s top concern, but it should rank up there with his fund raisers and golf games. I’m not upset with Obama. I’m reminding people of the double standard.

    Our region will not get as much financial aid as victims of Katrina got, nor should we. Our government cannot afford it. We are also better able than Katrina victims to take care of ourselves- at least if the press of the time is to be believed.

    I am not being overly dramatic. Our situation is worse than a hangnail compared to a car wreck. True, only two people that I know of have died so far, but this is more a crisis of economics than physical safety. It also extends from southern Canada to the Gulf. That is more than a hangnail, and it is an emergency in slow motion.

    This is only the beginning. A flood lasting months will produce serious consequences. The Corps of Engineers tell us some people will not be able to return to their homes until January. That is no hangnail.

    Educate yourself. Google KFAB. com and look at the flood page. one areal video shows the dikes failing at Percival, Iowa early yesterday.

    My wife and I wondered why an airplane was circling our farm two days ago and yesterday. Now we know. Google Missouri River flood 2011-Lee Valley Inc, and look at the first page of June 29. One of the pictures shows part of our farm. Lee Valley is a Nebraska farming and used machinery dealership. They also are crop dusters. Look at the water and remember it will be there for many more months. We may be ice skating on some of that water.

    If you trouble yourself, this will probably be the first and last time you get to see my natural habitat.

  312. Why are we letting them redefine our language and turn this into a Movement that will exclude all who are not like them – including mainline Christians as well as all other faith and non-faith citizens in the United States?

    But Elsie, that is exactly what your kind does. We have thousands of posts on here to prove it. You and your kinds intolerance of others in legend.

    Like Bristle said…

    And the stalking of the Palins continues, what public office has Bristle ever held? What a bunch of psychos.

    As for No One’s Puppet, just ignore the piece of trash. This is her typical MO nothing more. She had no point to make, just here to spread his/her/its particular brand of hate. This was no different than when NOP attacked me, my wife and kid because I posted on this board. This piece of skum is just another Liberal willing to do anything to win.

    Still amazed, though by now I am starting to wonder why I am still amazed, that not one Liberal has any problem with those in our country being hurt the most and in need of help the most have been forgotten and are suffering due to Obama’s broken promises.

  313. Elsie –
    ““…of all of the places to wear a crucifix, who puts one right above their naughty bits?””

    Where is Andres Serrano when you need him? LOL

    I think Sarah is probably more of a St. Andrew’s cross kind of gal. just sayin’…

  314. Elsie –

    I correspond with Leah Burton and Gryphen occasionally. Believe me, there are myriad people like them – and me – who keep very close tabs on the Dominionist movement. It WILL NOT happen, so rest easy. Leah especially is tremendously influential in the fight to keep Church and State separate.

    Did you see Immoral Minority’s blog entry on the sales of Bristol’s “book?” “There were tens of people” there. LOL

  315. All things considered, do you really think your plight, should be President Obama’s top priority at the moment? I for one never gave a damn if President Bush visited New Orleans, I wanted him to order up the military or anyone else with helicopters to get bottled water into the city.

  316. All things considered, do you really think your plight, should be President Obama’s top priority at the moment? I for one never gave a damn if President Bush visited New Orleans, I wanted him to order up the military or anyone else with helicopters to get bottled water into the city. That is why I think you are being overly dramatic, the President must come to western Iowa and prove his concern? Why shouldn’t an emergency room physician drop what he is doing, saving the life of a auto accident victim, to tend to your hangnail, because everyone knows your hangnail could lead to blood poisoning? I guess if you are the hangnail patient, you think, he should drop everything else. Just because it is you, James, doesn’t mean that it is an emergency, and even if it is treated as a nonemergency now doesn’t mean you have been forgotten. There will be disaster relief for you as soon as possible, and if you think about it, you’ll realize that is the case.

  317. Make that “27 children” having to deal with not women..that Bachmann has to deal with…

  318. PFesser ,
    Been a while….I quickly looked over the blog a lil ways to see what was going on.
    Referring to your June 27th post about Huntsman.
    I think at one time or another I did say I liked what I heard and saw of the “man” as well.
    I don’t know that much about Bachmann other than she has 27 women and live in a shoe. I think its great that someone will tackle taking on foster children..however at what expense to the natural born childrens emotional needs..however thats a personal issue and if she can do it more power to her.

    I might prefer a President who does not have to worry about 27 children or a nanny/husband. Don’t know how they do it financially..but again a private issue.

    Now to Gov.Perry. I know I’m gonna catch a lot of heat about this..but as you know he may announce running for POTUS. Texas has done well during the down economy. Cannot say its been all his great leadership..but we have done well and better than most other states. That’s not counting education though which we all could do better at. So who am I for…?

    Best answer is who I’m against….OBAMA. Cannot go another 4 years with his lack of leadership and grandstanding on others efforts and achievements.
    His wife and kids also need to find another cheaper way to have a summer vacation rather than going to visit Mandela in South Africa on the U.S. taxpayers dime.

    End of story.

    Reason I have not posted is Valerie is not doing well. Many physical symptoms related to the CHemo treatments have made their appearance in last three weeks and its been a very emotional time…as well as helping her physically now that the Chemo drugs have beat her into submission. They are working..but at a price.

    Best to all on the right and left.
    Craig

  319. NOP, I was illustrating a point about the president’s lack of concern. I was also illustrating the hyprocracy of his allies in the entertainment world. His failure to visit these and other disaster areas tells us something about the man. The double standard tells us more about Bush’s critics. That is what I was noting, not Obama’s failure to visit the flood zone, tornado areas, or the fire and drought in the Southwest. I am not mad at Obama for his failure to visit. As Rham Imanuel said never wast a crisis. Our disaster’s exposing the double standard is too good to waste.

    Former Iowa governor and current Security of Agriculture Vilsack visited the region and told us not to expect much financial aid because of budget constraints. Of course, we will get some money from crop insurance, and I suspect there will be a disaster payment as well as low interest loans because Obama signed the order declaring us a disaster area.

    Crop insurance only pays enough to replace a lost crop, and sometimes less. It will only reduce the financial impact of the loss. The date of payment can be uncertain. That is why I wrote we have lost a third of our immediate income so far. In 1989 after we lost a crop, we had to pay our $11000.00 in property taxes with a a credit card because the insurance check was late. No one knows if our flooded land will be farmible next year or if it will produce an economically viable crop. Some authorities say up to ten years will pass before the land is back to normal. I think they are being pesimistic, but I don’t know.

    We like most of our neighbors have no flood insurance because the last flood occurred fifty years ago at home and forty years ago on our flooded farm.

    People in town will have to follow building codes to repair their homes. Several months of water inside of a dwelling for several months will likely feed mold. Regulations require practically gutting a house to get rid of the mold etc. Many home owners cannot afford the cost. Some older homes have an asbestus problem. Our economic development person told us sand bags become toxic waste which must be removed according to environmental procedures.

    Iowa, I think, has just announced that displaced persons can now live on state camp grounds without paying for the rest of the summer.

    The only comparison I have made with Katrina is the politicians and celebraties’ reactions to the two disasters. This flood may eventually affect you indirectly.

    .

  320. Just too funny…..

    “…of all of the places to wear a crucifix, who puts one right above their naughty bits?”

    http://theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/2011/06/reason-for-palins-belt-buckle-crucifix.html

  321. Damn. I took a quick look back and found that my notation indicating an excerpt from Leah’s web site was following, and the notation was also deleted. I am reproducing her own words, so I mean for them to be attributed to her. So, I’m trying again.

    ***
    from Leah’s blog:

    “….STOP calling it “social conservatism”. Call it what it IS! Religious politics – and even more specifically Christian Dominionist politics. That is a very narrow group and they are a minority. Why are we letting them redefine our language and turn this into a Movement that will exclude all who are not like them – including mainline Christians as well as all other faith and non-faith citizens in the United States?”

  322. One last thing…. up there when I first said, “You would love Leah Burton’s blog, too…. You can find it at “gods own party dot com” but without the spaces.”

    I used some punctuation in the original submission that deleted the phrase there completely by accident. So, I’ve tried again, just so you have the basic web site for Leah’s blog, titled “God’s Own Party”, aka the Gee OH Pee-ers.

    Okay, I’m outahere. Be good.

  323. Thank you Elsie. Many people have said the worst feeling is the uncertainty. Not even the experts can tell us what will happen, because nobody knows. One can feel secure and discover water crossing the back yard within minutes as happened last weekend and yesterday. Others have evacuated and their houses are still dry.

    A radio announcer in Minot, ND said she met with her staff several hours after she lost her home. After a cry, she told them, including many who had also lost their homes they had a job to do, to report what was happening.

    Thank you again and have a happy fourth.

  324. This is your statement, James, that set me off and I stand by my previous criticism. “Obama was in eastern Iowa on a jobs tour. He didn’t visit the flood zone. Remember Katrina and the uproar when Bush was slow to visit the damage zone. Obama was in eastern Iowa and didn’t extend his trip to the flood zone. Crickets..” If you were a newborn infant, those face was wrinkled and gaunt from dehydration and you had a CNN camera right in your face, I’d be cussing the President right along with you. You and I both know, you and your neighbors will receive financial help for your loses later on, so don’t kid a kidder.

  325. To the progressives who read Helen’s site:

    Like Bristle said in her book when she demeaned her baby daddy and called him a gnat, there often seems to be some buzzing noise here on Helen’s site these days. Just scroll on by the annoyances, and have a great weekend.

    As always, keep the mosquito spray handy, and don’t let the annoying gnats and other bugs get you down.

  326. And, finally, let me re-cap the excellent info found at

    http://pleasecutthecrap.typepad.com/main/what-has-obama-done-since-january-20-2009.html

    An EXTENSIVE list of accomplishments follows. For Helen’s progressives who try to keep up with political specifics, you might want to bookmark this site, too.

    Have a great weekend.

  327. Hey, one more thing for the progressives who read this blog:
    You would love Leah Burton’s blog, too…. You can find it at but without the spaces.

    Here’s a great link, though, that is related:

    http://godsownparty.com/blog/2011/06/definition-social-conservative-dominionist-politics/

    And, here’s an interesting excerpt about denying the usurpation of the term “social conservatism” and calling it what it really is….”religious politics”….

    ….STOP calling it “social conservatism”. Call it what it IS! Religious politics – and even more specifically Christian Dominionist politics. That is a very narrow group and they are a minority. Why are we letting them redefine our language and turn this into a Movement that will exclude all who are not like them – including mainline Christians as well as all other faith and non-faith citizens in the United States?

  328. And our Elsie has responded and as predicted, she is one of those Liberals who would sell her country and her kids/grand kids down the river to “win” Elsie has now verified taht she has no issue with the 30+ broken promises Obama has broke to our nations poor, disabled, sick, elderly and veterans. At least not enough of a problem to motivate a single word of support for these people.

    And who is this Palin these stalker Liberals keep talking about? What public office does she currently hold that gets these psychos so worked up about her?

  329. James, periodically, I catch up a little here with your extremely sad situation there in your home state. I really hope that things improve for you soon. What a nightmare to be living all that, week after week. Best regards to you and yours.

    ***
    For any progressives who might still look in here, occasionally, for more of Helen’s wit and commentary, I’d like to bring you an interesting link today:

    http://malialitman.wordpress.com/2011/07/01/a-palinperry-ticket-my-worst-nightmare/

    Take a look to see some comparisons between Palin and Perry as the inept governors that they were/are. You may even want to bookmark that excellent commentary today.

    Have a great fourth, everyone!

  330. And another thing, NOP. We have lost a third of our income so far and may lose more. We are still moving things to higher ground and watching a stream on our farm which a couple heavy rains could send over its banks.

    . Do you really think I could have driven to see obama in eastern Iowa if I wanted to? Were you being snide or were you as clueless as your comment seemed. What were you thinking to write something so stupid? Unlike the Pfessor, I don’t feel very civil right now. I feel an entire region and social class has been insulted.

  331. NOP, your comments surprise me. I have written several times that my wife and I are lucky. I told Honolulu Sally my wife and I considered ourselves to be rich because nine people offered to help us move or give us a place to stay. My empathy is strong because I know how it feels to be a refugee and to rebuild from nothing. We relied on the kindness of others during a flood when I was a boy. We rebuilt our house from an empty shell, and my parents were in debt for years.

    Three years ago, a tornado left us without water or electricity for days, and we paid over $8,000 to fix the damage.

    Many people are living in camp grounds because they have lost everything. Consider what condition a house will be in after months of flooding. It will be a total loss, especially if it is in town and subject to building codes. Many people are paying rent in other places and must also pay mortguages and taxes on ruined homes.

    Unlike Katrina, this is a slow motion disaster and it covers property from southern Canada to the Gulf. Its true the victims of that hurricane lost everything in a few hours. However, some of those people sat on roofs or had no electricity because of the inadequate reaction of the liberal local and state governments.

    Tornadoes destroyed much of Mapleton, Iowa, Joplin, Missouri, and other places. Those people had as little as victims of Katrina, but they helped themselves and are rebuilding without the public acknowledgement of a president or wealthy celebraties. Not one of them as far as I know, put a “Help Me” sign on a roof.

    Besides the fires, another slow motion disaster is the southern drought which steals daily. We haven’t heard much about them after the initial emergency.

    How dare you accuse me of not being empathetic! We and our church have donated money to the hurricane and tornado victims. People from here worked to help them, and provided homes for Katrina victims,some of whom decided to settle here.

    I didn’t want to see the President. I was making a point to illustrate this man’s callous feeling for people who are not his political kind. I don’t believe he and his fellow travelers really cared about the victims of Katrina as much as they wanted to use them as a political weapon against the hated Bush.

    I have been telling you what is happening because the press fails to. There has been no self pity.

    Your ideological self righteousness makes me wonder if you have ever survived a disaster. Your empathy seems to be ideological.

    Your post is a dissapointment. I thought you were different.

  332. Helen, Big Hugs and lots of love! I have been where you are now, and it’s not easy. Take good care of yourself! Be especially careful to pay close attention to what you are doing; I nearly killed myself through a moment’s inattention a few months after I lost my husband. My slogan is “Be Here Now”…with focus and awareness~!

  333. heh Uncle Sugar, I like that. Mind if I borrow it?

  334. hour=your

  335. NOP –

    I’m trying to be more civil these days, so just let me say your comment leaves me speechless.

    To my untrained eye there are two differences: firstly, Katrina struck viciously and intensely in a densely populated area; the midwest has a little more time to react.

    But having said that, secondly: not to be callous myself – but there is a different type of people who live in the farming communities vis a vis New Orleans. They have not been bred generation after generation to depend on Uncle Sugar for every want and need – which is to say they have not been conditioned into passivity and helplessness, hanging out waiting for the gub’ment to come rescue then while hundreds of perfectly usable school buses sit empty and silent.

    No, you won’t see anybody in Omaha on his roof with a sign, “HELP US!” You will find those people down in boats helping themselves.

    Not very PC, but I believe VERY true.

  336. Thank you everyone for your concern. As I wrote before, we consider ourselves lucky to still be at home.

    Another effect of the flood is migrating animals. People who never saw a badger, wild turkey, or coyote now have them visiting their lawns.

    My cousin who has two hundred acres of land under water visited their farm and said two fawns followed her.

    Yes, I remember the other disasters Obama barely acknowledged if at all. He and his wife remind me of Marie Antonette. Much worse, is the Democratic propaganda wing of the party who pose as objective reporters. Their frenzy to find something in her e mails which would drive the final stake through Sarah Palins political heart was as disgusting as their current attempt to personally destroy Barbara Bachmann. She makes many gaffs, but so do Obama and other Democratic politicians.

    Liberal leaders consider women and minorities to be their property. If one steps out of line she/he must be destroyed lest others follow suit.

    One of Nancy Pelosi’s staff workers said though she would never vote for Bachmann she thought the press’s treatment of her was wrong and anti -woman.

  337. No One’s Puppet the real question is why are you asking. His situation does not need to be the worst in recorded history to make it a bad event to live through. I am curious as to what your motivations are to bring up this point and what you are trying or hoping to accomplish by the effort? Is it just another of hour dozens of personal attacks? Are you just in another of your petty moods? This is genuine curiosity, I want to understand your motivations.

    Also of note, No One’s Puppet has no problem with the 30+ broken promises Obama has broke to our nations poor, disabled, sick, elderly and veterans. At least not enough problem to motivate a single word of support for these people.

  338. Not to be callous, but what is James going through? He has food, water, electricity, Internet; how does that compare to New Orleans, where babies and the elderly had no WATER, no food, no air conditioning, and the facilities were over flowing? Seems he is the only one still at home there and he thinks the President should stop by, James has a vehicle, why didn’t he drive to Eastern Iowa to see the President, if he wanted to talk to him? Sorry James, but that is how I see it. Everything changes when it is about you, maybe you will learn to empathize from this experience, be grateful for what you do have.

  339. PFessor, nobody knows how high the water will go because we have never had a flood like this. Baring serious changes, we should be at the peak now. The Corps of Engineers reps told me they had expected river stages to be higher than they are by now. The wide expanse of flood water spreads any increased flow over a wide area, so river stages are getting harder to change. Moreover, any burst levy down stream as happened yesterday reduces pressure up stream and lowers the river level slightly for a while.

    Omaha’s river depth is about 36 feet, seven feet over flood stage. Excluding heavy rain or a mountain hot spell, the flood should reach a period of stability now with future extensive changes dependent on rain, the levy system, roads, and the interstate which act as dikes. Omaha’s and Sioux City’s river depth is forecast to remain steady or fall a bit for the foreseeable future.

    The Corps of Engineers plan to keep releasing 160,000 cubic feet of water per second until August 23 and slowly reduce the flow thereafter. They hope to get the Missouri River below flood stage sometime in September, October or November. Even so residents of some evacuated towns were warned not to plan to be home before January. I think some ponds will remain until next June.

    Our economy is good. I think the last unemployment figures for the Omaha area were about 4.6%. The average for the area should be up to 5 or 6%. Our church food pantry does a brisk business as do others, so some people were hurting before the flood. I think our economy will suffer. It already shows signs.

    It is hard to get around, and this impacts commuters and transporters of goods. The inflationary pressure is high because of the higher cost. Some commuters and flood victims are living in their campers on camp grounds. If this continues into fall and winter, local governments will have to cope with people who need more substantial shelter.

    The ghost towns may not recover in the short term, because the longer this lasts, the more likely businesses and people will adapt to new areas. Farmers are taking a hit, and many have abandoned their land and homes for the duration. Some will have no income save crop insurance and possible disaster payments. Their ability to plant another crop next year and possible yields are in question. It may take years to revive the land’s fertility.
    Thousands of acers of land were suddenly flooded last Sunday when the dike broke, but now the DOT has decided the detour H 30 to Blair, Neb must be saved at all costs. It is closed now as workers erect a four foot barrior to slow the flow of water across the highway. it will be reopened and closed again to build more.

    I 29 is also closed north of us, but the DOT is doing similar work to keep it open as long as possible. This work will also reduce flooding on areas down stream of the highways.

    Parts of I 29 may be out of commission for two years or more because of water damage. Other roads have been washed out. Detours are deteriorating faster than scheduled because of heavy traffic. Dikes will have to be rebuilt by next spring if possible.

    OPPD anounced they will raise their electricity rates because of the flood. A nuclear power plant worker was seriously burned several days ago. Both power plants are down, and their managers think they are safe, but a good widespread rain could change that. Water is in the buildings but water tight doors protect dangerous machines and material.

    School districts, including ours may not survive intact because so many families may not return. One district south of us offers free housing to any family with students in the school.

    Omaha’s airport may be flooded, though they are doing every thing they can to save it. A levy might break and flood much of east Omaha, or one could take part of Council Bluffs. These events would be major blows to the economy.

    I think the economy will be like that of the Germanies after the Soviet Union fell. East Germany was economically depressed while the West was wealthy. Our dry and flooded areas will meet somewhere in the middle as the Germanies did. My wife and I have lost a third of our immediate income, and others have lost more. This will reverberate through the local and regional economy.

    Cedar Rapids, Iowa still has not recovered from a huge flood three years ago. Likewise for victims of Katrina. The effects of this flood will last for years.

  340. Jsri and Jean mocked me for writing on subjects for which I had no formal training.

    To that I say BS. We are all just having a conversation here. You don’t have to know every nuance of a topic to have an intelligent opinion.

    Jsri also mocked my folksy, rural writing style.

    Liberals attack those not like them personally because intellectually they cannot defend the ideology they profess to be true, so they go after the poster. Discredit the poster and you discredit what they say, or at least that is what they think. Sadly I have found less than a handful of Liberals in all my time on here who can engage ideas and not make personal attacks. You will never find a more intolerant, bigoted, hateful group of people than those in the Liberal party and on this board.

    Jame, the wife and I talk about you guys daily and what you are going through. We pray for a good outcome. Obama didn’t stop out I am sure because there is not a dense enough Liberal voter block to make it worth his time.

    Also noting not one Liberal has any problem to date with any of the 30+ broken promises Obama has broke to our nations poor, disabled, sick, elderly and veterans. Party of the people my ass.

  341. James,

    That’s a pattern of The One. He doesn’t give a damn about people – especially red state people. Case in point – the Texas wildfires. Obama gives a great damn about reelection. The man is nothing if a malicious narcissist, gaffe a minute and buffoon.

    Point: Do you remember the horrific Tennessee floods (much larger than New Orleans) of 2009? Obama was Haiti and California, frolicking or posing for the camera. Probably got in a little golf and shot some hoops. He eventually made it to Memphis to speak at a high school commencement, but it was days after the disaster and it was Nashville, not Memphis, that took the brunt of the flooding.

    JSRI and Jean talk about a lot of things of which they are clueless – see Auntie Jean’s ignorant post from above. Consider them a source of amusement, that which to be mocked and laughed at, and nothing more. Doubling down on stupid. :wink:

    Been thinking about you, and hope you continue to stay safe and dry.

  342. The last post was mine.

    Obama was in eastern Iowa on a jobs tour. He didn’t visit the flood zone. Remember Katrina and the uproar when Bush was slow to visit the damage zone. Obama was in eastern Iowa and didn’t extend his trip to the flood zone. Crickets..

    The Daily Telegraph reports nearly 100,000 British patients receive inadequate palitave care under the British health system. Will more people die under Obamacare or the current private system we still have? I vote for Obamacare.

    British public unions are striking and making a fuss much as the Wisconsin public employees unions did.

    According to Betsy’s Page some Wisconsin school districts are already benefiting from that state’s victory over the unions.

  343. James –

    How much higher is the water predicted to go and when will it peak?

    What is the recession rate predicted to be? How soon before the streams are back in in their banks? I am hearing several months or more.

  344. Jsri and Jean mocked me for writing on subjects for which I had no formal training. The fact that my conclusions were supported by fact had no effect on them. I should let my intellectual betters, namely them handle the subjects they had trained for. My story again proves them wrong.

    In 2006, we dug a twelve foot section of our mostly dry lake to uncover one of the springs which used to feed it. It was during a drought year, but the pit the size of two rooms remained full and periods of heavy rain or melting snow filled parts of the basin near the excavation.

    Thanks to the flood, a rising water table has let the lake expand to about twelve acres, and it is growing rapidly as it spreads into a corn field. The Corps of Engineers told us flooded basements were a certainty, yet our basement is only damp. I asked them and others if there was a connection with our lake’s surge. No one knew.

    Finally, they grew tired of asking, and referred me to a hydrologist. He told me I was right. Our house rests on about eight feet of black clay locally called gumbo. It is so hard, burrowing animals like gophers and ground squirrels avoid it. Layers of lighter soil and sand are below the gumbo.

    The gumbo acts as a barrier , and our lake spring offers a path of least resistance for the water. Our basement will eventually have water, but thanks to the gumbo and our expanding lake, it will be slow and easily handled by a sump pump.

    When our other farm was flooded, I checked the rate of water flow across our land, and my observations of other farms convinced me the Corps inundation maps were wrong for our neighborhood. I was polite, but the reps were irritated when I told them so.

    Two days ago, a rep told me I was right. They had used their best guesses and computer analysis to project the progress of our flood, and I gave them credit for a good effort. Fortunately, factors they had missed, but I had caught kept water to other parts of the valley than near our house. They now agree we may not have to move out of our house. That may change, because this flood will continue for at least another two or three months, but the Corps time line was wrong.

    The drainage ditch which flows through our has reached the bases of the highway and rail road bridges thanks to heavy rain on Sunday night. The Corps assure us the water will not top the dikes, but if another two heavy storms fall upstream, we will have to escape fast. Observation planes have been flying over our farm for the past several days. Blocked roads make it hard to get around, but we have one escape route remaining if the worst happens.

    Jsri also mocked my folksy, rural writing style. Gary Sinese co stared in a television version of The Stand. One of his lines was “country don’t mean stupid.”

    Jean and jsri will never read this, but someone will.

  345. Well said Anonymou, and I am sure you articulated that as well as your education allows for. If you should be able to formulate a thought that actually has something worth responding too by all means give it a shot. Otherwise you just keep on doing your best sport.

  346. This is no different than any scandal a democrat gets caught in and its why Liberals are as dangerous as any terrorist. They have selective morality and ethics. If a Liberal does it, a weekend in rehab and he is ready to return to his job, and all is forgiven. A Conservative J-walks and he is labeled an inhuman monster for all his days, unfit to ever serve in public office ever again. Liberals want to win, at any cost. Selling this country down the river and dooming their children’s future is not to high a price to pay for victory.

    Look at how Liberals treat women. Sara Palin and her daughter have been and still treated terribly. Now it is Michele Bachmann’’s turn. I have no doubt in the weeks and months ahead that the Liberals will attack her as if she were public enemy number 1. Time will tell.

    It is a shame JEAN that you cannot find it within your withered and bitter old heart to be honest and hold Obama accountable for promises made and broken. Also, I am still holding you accountable for that apology to our troops for your earlier smearing of their good names.

  347. Noah
    You are truly a dimwit kiddo.

  348. I can play “straw woman” and/or “ad hominum” with the best of Fox addicts. Example: When it comes to failed promises of the “Messiah”, Jesus, he promised “Peace on Earth, Good Will Toward Men”. What happened there?

    I think you misread again Auntie,or your author did. Better yet, I don’t think either of you would understand if you had read, which you obviously didn’t. But I’ll try to make this real simple since it’s being interpreted for a lib:

    There’s no promises of ‘Peace on Earth’ until the end of grace. In fact, just the opposite. What you might experience if you last long enough Auntie Jean, and from the looks of that gravatar that’s highly questionable, is hell on earth far exceeding that of your typical miserable existence. Either way, for you it ends ugly.

    But on the slight chance you get to stick around until then, what you are will get to experience beyond a shadow of a doubt is wailing and gnashing of teeth for a very long time immediately after the light flashes. :wink:

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Baloney. Salami

  349. Hi Congenial Gang,

    Gene Lyons had a great column in our paper this morning. If you can track it down on the net, it is called “Who needs logic.” Sometimes our paper changes the caption but the gist is there.

    I can play “straw woman” and/or “ad hominum” with the best of Fox addicts. Example: When it comes to failed promises of the “Messiah”, Jesus, he promised “Peace on Earth, Good Will Toward Men”. What happened there?

    Apparently not in the “Promised Land” of “Regressive Land”.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam.

    Auntie Jean

  350. and it is noted Anonymous approves of all the failed promises of the Messiah.

  351. mother in law then maybe kiddo?

  352. You really are dense.
    Obama’s mother died of ovarian cancer at age 55. To find her now living at the White House must be a true act of the Messiah.

  353. I myself was a little miffed when the wife of the Messiah took a vacation with just her and her mom to Africa with no official purpose but some R&R time, Taking Air Force 2 and a military transport to carry what they were taking and buying there (imagine what you would have to buy to need a military transport?) all on the tax payer dollar coming to about $800,000.

    I don’t know of another President that has done this, maybe some have, but I was a bit astonished to find that the Messiah has his mother living with them at the White house. Wonder what that is costing tax payers?

  354. Excellent Post Noah – Elsie still won’t “get it”, but her statement so ludicrous and patently false, the record must be corrected.

    How about a little of O’Bama’s rank hypocrisy and misleading for a final touch?

    Obama Excoriates Republicans for Corporate Jet Tax Break He Included in Stimulus Bill.

    http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2011/06/president-obama-excoriates-republicans-.html

  355. In his campaign Obama Promised to Form international group to help Iraq refugees. Promise Broken.

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Reinstate special envoy for the Americas. Administration engages Latin America, but not with a special envoy. Promise Broken.

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Double the Peace Corps. President’s budget continues lower trend-line for Peace Corps funding. Promise Broken.

    Centralize ethics and lobbying information for voters. Promise Broken.

    Allow five days of public comment before signing bills. Promise Broken

    Tougher rules against revolving door for lobbyists and former officials. Promise Broken.

    Double funding for after-school programs. Promise Broken.

    Urge states to treat same-sex couples with full equality in their family and adoption laws. Promise Broken.

    Allow bankruptcy judges to modify terms of a home mortgage. Promise Broken.

    Re-establish the National Aeronautics and Space Council. Promise Broken.

    Close the Guantanamo Bay Detention Center. Promise Broken.

    Pay for the national service plan without increasing the deficit. Promise Broken.

    Limit term of director of national intelligence. Promise Broken.

    Give annual “State of the World” address. Promise Broken.

    Reduce earmarks to 1994 levels. Promise Broken.

    Enact windfall profits tax for oil companies. Promise Broken.

    Create cap and trade system with interim goals to reduce global warming. Promise Broken.

    Require plug-in fleet at the White House. Promise Broken.

    Provide an annual report on “state of our energy future” Promise Broken.

    Allow penalty-free hardship withdrawals from retirement accounts in 2008 and 2009. Promise Broken.

    Recognize the Armenian genocide. Promise Broken.

    No family making less than $250,000 will see “any form of tax increase.” Promise Broken.

    Negotiate health care reform in public sessions televised on C-SPAN. Promise Broken.

    Create a public option health plan for a new National Health Insurance Exchange. Promise Broken

    Introduce a comprehensive immigration bill in the first year. Promise Broken.

    So Elsie or other Messiah supporters, How does this list of failures sit with you?

  356. I think because I sighted sources to show everything is based on fact the multiple links is triggering the moderator intervention. That said proof for each and every failure is available if you should want to dispute my facts.

    In his campaign Obama Promised to create a foreclosure prevention fund for homeowners. Broken promise and a huge failure.

    In his campaign Obama Promised to end income tax for seniors making less than $50,000. Guess he just forgot our nations seniors, but they are old and will not remember right?

    In his campaign Obama Promised to end no-bid contracts above $25,000 Promise Broken

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Sign the Employee Free Choice Act, making it easier for workers to unionize. Promise unfulfilled.

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Forbid companies in bankruptcy from giving executives bonuses. No sign of action on promise about executive bonuses. Promise forgotten.

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Allow workers to claim more in unpaid wages and benefits in bankruptcy court. No progress on promise regarding unpaid wages. Promise forgotten.

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Allow imported prescription drugs. No new rules for drug imports in health care law. Promise Broken.

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Direct the Secretary of Health and Human Services to conduct a comprehensive study of federal cancer initiatives. No comprehensive study launched on federal cancer efforts. This was supposed to be an Immediate response to this problem. Promise Broken.

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Create a National Commission on People with Disabilities, Employment, and Social Security. No commission has been formed. Promise forgotten.

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Change federal rules so small businesses owned by people with disabilities can get preferential treatment for federal contracts. No sign of progress toward small business boost for Americans with disabilities. Promise Broken.

  357. been a couple days and the comment doesnt seem to be getting moderated. I will assume because of the size it was held up so I will repost in smaller chunks. This was in response to Elsie and her belief in the Messiah being a total success as President. Here is my response to that post.

    “If you think President Obama is a failure, or you’re “disappointed” in him, the problem pretty much has to be you.

    How closed minded a statement this is. Liberal philosophy 101 right here. You either think as I do or there is something wrong with you.

    Lets check out his list of failures shall we Elsie?

  358. been a couple days and the comment doesnt seem to be getting moderated. I will assume because of the size it was held up so I will repost in smaller chunks. This was in response to Elsie and her belief in the Messiah being a total success as President. Here is my response to that post.

    “If you think President Obama is a failure, or you’re “disappointed” in him, the problem pretty much has to be you.

    How closed minded a statement this is. Liberal philosophy 101 right here. You either think as I do or there is something wrong with you.

    Lets check out his list of failures shall we Elsie?

    In his campaign Obama Promised to create a foreclosure prevention fund for homeowners. Broken promise and a huge failure. Proof as follows: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/15/create-a-foreclosure-prevention-fund-for-homeowner/

    In his campaign Obama Promised to end income tax for seniors making less than $50,000. Guess he just forgot our nations seniors, but they are old and will not remember right? Proof: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/24/end-income-tax-for-seniors-making-less-than/

    In his campaign Obama Promised to end no-bid contracts above $25,000 Promise Broken. Proof: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/30/end-no-bid-contracts-above-25000/

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Sign the Employee Free Choice Act, making it easier for workers to unionize. Promise unfulfilled. Proof: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/43/sign-the-employee-free-choice-act-making-it-easie/

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Forbid companies in bankruptcy from giving executives bonuses. No sign of action on promise about executive bonuses. Promise forgotten. Proof: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/45/forbid-companies-in-bankruptcy-from-giving-executi/

  359. well because you didnt have the intelligence or the foresight to consider not everyone knows what you know.

  360. When a comment is in moderation, only the moderator will see it. No one else will have access to it until it is released. Why is that too complex to understand?

  361. Guess Anonymous didn’t know what he meant either.

  362. I like this post,tanks.

  363. Sorry Anonymous. don’t follow what you are saying

  364. Noah

    There’s an obvious answer to your question, If you can’t understand that, why are you here?

  365. if a post is tagged…Your comment is awaiting moderation, can others see it?

  366. Thanks, Wayne. Your praise, is good for the soul.

    I don’t think I will have time to check in for a day or so. The heavy rain I mentioned has reached the drainage ditch which runs through our farm. For the first time in weeks, the water is flowing downstream with trash including trees. The water in the ditch and river east of us has risen a foot or so since yesterday and is within four feet of the bases of the highway and railroad bridges. Airplanes circled our farm this morning, so I checked the water and asked the Corps of Engineers reps if we needed to consider evacuating. Not yet.

    It bears watching, in spite of what the Corps say, because if water tops the bank, one escape route will remain, and it will be across the river east of us. If we thought we were in any immediate danger, we’d be leaving now. It is just something we need to watch for a day or two.

    The Corps people are so grateful that I am nice to them, they tell me things. For example, the flood is not progressing as they had calculated. Large areas are still dry because, in my opinion, earlier ditch and river straightening and dike building, the interstate, railroad tracks and high graded roads have slowed the spread of water in some places and made it deeper in others.

    Whenever, a down stream levy breaks, it helps relieve the pressure on us. The river is also cutting deeper near us, and that helps it hold more water. No one has a clue about how this will turn out, because it is beyond the computer models and modern experience to know. Nobody knows how long the dikes which were designed to hold water for a few days will last against months of innundation. All I know is we have lost a third of our immediate income to flood water.

    Ground water is an effective fifth column which will do what the surface flood can’t. Omaha-Council Bluffs, safely behind large dikes is being flooded by rain water because it has nowhere to go. Some people were evacuated on Saturday because water was up to car door handles. Pumps sent the water into the river within four or five hours. Sewers are also backing up.

    One blew yesterday and sent a twenty foot fountain into the air. Workers partly stopped it by driving heavy equipment onto the man hole cover.

    The Platte River is sending flood water into the Missouri down stream from us. It has areas of flooding as far up stream as Wyoming where heavy snow is melting.

    KFAB.com has some good flood news.

    No I didn’t hear about the insult. Here is my reaction to all of the clueless wonders who don’t know or understand us.

    ” We came from the West Virginia coal mines
    and the western skies
    And country folk will survive.”

    Hank Williams Junior

    Here is something which hardly made the news. The Little Sioux Scout Ranch tornado destroyed the camp and killed or injured many boy scouts. Police and fire fighters who had survived 9/11 came all the way out here to help rebuild the camp. People from here helped rebuild after Katrina, and others have been in Joplin, Mo. Other communities donated time and effort so that Grand Forks, ND high school seniors could have a good prom and graduation after the awful food of 1997. . I think Soul Asylum donated a show for the prom.

  367. James,

    I am glad you’re back to posting. I have been thinking about you.

    What you describe is what I would expect from America’s finest, most capable people. I don’t know if you are aware that last Friday night on the Bill Maher show, a NY Columnist named David Carr called large swaths of those living along or near the Missouri Rivers and Mississippi Rivers “low-sloping foreheads.” More specifically, his insult was aimed toward the residents of Missouri and Kansas. Har Har Har…

    Here is what my experience has been. Iowa, Missouri, Nebraska, SD, North Dakota, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas, Alabama, and Tennessee have all been hit with devastating storms or severe flooding the last five years. During that time, I have heard no calls for “Save Me Obama! Save Me!, or “Save Me FEMA! Save Me!” from any of them. Not one. There have been no repeats of New Orleans, and some of the floods and storms have been far more widespread.

    These geniuses on the coasts that consider themselves elite and intellectual? The most helpless people on earth – they just don’t know it yet because they are too superficial to understand how they are being fed, clothed, and kept cool and warm. Those that live in flyover country – the glue that holds this country together and will be standing long after the coasts have sunk into the abyss.

    There is no doubt.

  368. ** Guffaw **

    Elsie’s posts do make for great fodder.

    So Obama has said he would do what he said he would do? Is that what you are trying to tell us? I hope not – I would be appalled if there was somebody alive that deluded but…

    Unfortunately, there are millions on the Left that are as evidence by the 34% of Americans that rate Obama’s handling of the economy good or excellent. You can’t explain that level of abject stupidity, besides attributing the cause to profound and ubiquitous mental illness.

    Let’s take just a few and summarize. I could do this for hours. Shooting fish in a barrel. That Chatty Kitchen blog should be renamed Progressives Lying to Progressives.

    ——-

    Obama said he would halve the deficit – Reality: He tripled the annual deficit his first year and has extended that unto record well into his third, threatening both the U.S. dollar and credit rating.

    Obama said he would win the “right war” – Reality; Deaths of American soldiers in Afghanistan has increased 500% under Obama’s leadership, and he recently ignored the advice of Petraeus and Mullins, and listened to Axelrod and Plouffe.

    Obama campaigned against the Bush Doctrine; Reality; Obama doubled down on the Bush Doctrine, increased troops and started two other wars without Congressional approval in Libya and Yemen.

    Obama said he would close GITMO; Reality – self explanatory.

    Obama said he his “investment” of $862Billion for shovel ready jobs would prevent unemployment reaching above 8%; Reality – Published unemployment reached 10.1% thirteen months later, with real unemployment nearing 20%. Unemployment for newly minted college graduates has now reached 26%.

    This place is comedy gold when the occasional lying Lib peeks in and leaves a load.

  369. Sorry for the length of this post, I don’t know if others can see it as it has been marked for moderation. I hope it is for size and not content.

  370. “If you think President Obama is a failure, or you’re “disappointed” in him, the problem pretty much has to be you.

    How closed minded a statement this is. Liberal philosophy 101 right here. You either think as I do or there is something wrong with you.

    Lets check out his list of failures shall we Elsie?

    In his campaign Obama Promised to create a foreclosure prevention fund for homeowners. Broken promise and a huge failure. Proof as follows: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/15/create-a-foreclosure-prevention-fund-for-homeowner/

    In his campaign Obama Promised to end income tax for seniors making less than $50,000. Guess he just forgot our nations seniors, but they are old and will not remember right? Proof: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/24/end-income-tax-for-seniors-making-less-than/

    In his campaign Obama Promised to end no-bid contracts above $25,000 Promise Broken. Proof: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/30/end-no-bid-contracts-above-25000/

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Sign the Employee Free Choice Act, making it easier for workers to unionize. Promise unfulfilled. Proof: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/43/sign-the-employee-free-choice-act-making-it-easie/

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Forbid companies in bankruptcy from giving executives bonuses. No sign of action on promise about executive bonuses. Promise forgotten. Proof: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/45/forbid-companies-in-bankruptcy-from-giving-executi/

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Allow workers to claim more in unpaid wages and benefits in bankruptcy court. No progress on promise regarding unpaid wages. Promise forgotten. Proof: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/46/allow-workers-to-claim-more-in-unpaid-wages-and-be/

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Allow imported prescription drugs. No new rules for drug imports in health care law. Promise Broken. Proof: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/71/allow-imported-prescription-drugs/

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Direct the Secretary of Health and Human Services to conduct a comprehensive study of federal cancer initiatives. No comprehensive study launched on federal cancer efforts. This was supposed to be an Immediate response to this problem. Promise Broken. Proof: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/86/direct-the-secretary-of-health-and-human-services-/

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Create a National Commission on People with Disabilities, Employment, and Social Security. No commission has been formed. Promise forgotten. Proof: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/97/create-a-national-commission-on-people-with-disabi/

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Change federal rules so small businesses owned by people with disabilities can get preferential treatment for federal contracts. No sign of progress toward small business boost for Americans with disabilities. Promise Broken. Proof: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/98/change-federal-rules-so-small-businesses-owned-by-/

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Form international group to help Iraq refugees. Promise Broken/ Proof: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/129/form-international-group-to-help-iraq-refugees/

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Reinstate special envoy for the Americas. Administration engages Latin America, but not with a special envoy. Promise Broken. Proof: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/220/reinstate-special-envoy-for-the-americas/

    In his campaign Obama Promised to Double the Peace Corps. President’s budget continues lower trend-line for Peace Corps funding. Promise Broken. Proof: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/221/double-the-peace-corps/

    Lets speed things up. AS you can see this is a massive list proof available upon request.

    Centralize ethics and lobbying information for voters. Promise Broken.
    Allow five days of public comment before signing bills. Promise Broken
    Tougher rules against revolving door for lobbyists and former officials. Promise Broken.
    Double funding for after-school programs. Promise Broken.
    Urge states to treat same-sex couples with full equality in their family and adoption laws. Promise Broken.
    Allow bankruptcy judges to modify terms of a home mortgage. Promise Broken.
    Re-establish the National Aeronautics and Space Council. Promise Broken.
    Close the Guantanamo Bay Detention Center. Promise Broken.
    Pay for the national service plan without increasing the deficit. Promise Broken.
    Limit term of director of national intelligence. Promise Broken.
    Give annual “State of the World” address. Promise Broken.
    Reduce earmarks to 1994 levels. Promise Broken.
    Enact windfall profits tax for oil companies. Promise Broken.
    Create cap and trade system with interim goals to reduce global warming. Promise Broken.
    Require plug-in fleet at the White House. Promise Broken.
    Provide an annual report on “state of our energy future” Promise Broken.
    Allow penalty-free hardship withdrawals from retirement accounts in 2008 and 2009. Promise Broken.
    Recognize the Armenian genocide. Promise Broken.
    No family making less than $250,000 will see “any form of tax increase.” Promise Broken.
    Negotiate health care reform in public sessions televised on C-SPAN. Promise Broken.
    Create a public option health plan for a new National Health Insurance Exchange. Promise Broken
    Introduce a comprehensive immigration bill in the first year. Promise Broken.

    So Elsie or other Messiah supporters, How does this list of failures sit with you. I hope you are brave enough to answer.

  371. God, has anyone heard about Sarah Palin’s daughter’s book, “”Not Afraid of Life?” In it she accuses her baby-daddy of date-rape while she was under the influence of alcohol. Never mind that she lied to her parents about where she was spending the night and went camping with the boy instead – it was all HIS fault, that Neanderthal!

    You gotta be kidding me. Levi was a well-known local bad boy who, when still in high school bedded two girls at once and was quite proud of the fact. (Hell, who wouldn’t be?) Instead of just fessing up that she had the hots for ol’ Levi and took matters into her own – er, hands, she accuses him of raping her.

    Sounds like a technique she learned from her mother, whose life is defined by blaming others and getting even.

    I have a better title for the book: “False Accuser or, The Batshit Never Falls Far From the Tree.”

  372. Harlequin Novel, Updated…. 2011 Version:

    He grasped me firmly, but gently, just above my elbow and guided me into a room, his room. Then he quietly shut the door and we were alone. He approached me soundlessly, from behind, and spoke in a low, reassuring voice close to my ear.

    “Just relax.”

    Without warning, he reached down and I felt his strong, calloused hands start at my ankles, gently probing, and moving upward along my calves, slowly but steadily. My breath caught in my throat.

    I knew I should be afraid, but somehow I didn’t care. His touch was so experienced, so sure. When his hands moved up onto my thighs, I gave a slight shudder, and partly closed my eyes. My pulse was pounding. I felt his knowing fingers caress my abdomen, my ribcage.
    And then, as he cupped my firm, full breasts in his hands, I inhaled sharply.

    Probing, searching, knowing what he wanted, he brought his hands to my shoulders, slid them down my tingling spine and into my panties.
    Although I knew nothing about this man, I felt oddly trusting and expectant. This is a man, I thought. A man used to taking charge. A man not used to taking ‘No’ for an answer. A man who would tell me what he wanted. A man who would look into my soul and say . . . .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

    “Okay ma’am, you can board your flight now.”

  373. Maybe this is the flood talking.

    I like some of Michelle Bachman’s ideas. Sarah Palin’s and Obama’s too. But to say Obama is a good president is to lie. It is propagated by his supporters to encourage the party for the next election.. The results speak for themselves. Yes, he accomplished some of what he promised, and that is the problem. I’m not accusing Elsie of lying, just the politicians and their supporters.

    Obama didn’t “get” Ossama. He approved a plan. Someone else signed the paper. We don’t know what Bachmann or Palin would be as president, but Obama now has a record.

  374. The last comment was mine.

    This story should make Wayne, and everyone else proud. As the Corps of Engineers suddenly warned of the disaster, a local farmer and retired Corps of Engineers hydrological engineer thought the locals could save themselves by building new dikes and reinforcing the old.

    He made some phone calls, and soon a group of farmers, construction contractors, Iowa’s DOT, and the manager of DeSoto Bend refuge joined to build the dikes. Our neighbor who owns a construction company put in several 24 hour days. He said they did in a few days what would take the Corps weeks to build 30 miles of dikes.

    They aquired a pump and patrolled the levies with advice from the Corps. The effect was remarkable. One side was dry with leaks. The other side was an ocean. The group had no illusions. The organizer said in an interview that at least they had purchased some time.

    The dike failed, maybe because of the rain or the weight of the water, and within less than a day, the ocean spread over thousands of farmland.

    A KFAB talk show host wondered why Hollywood celebraties have ignored our recent disasters. Where is Bono, and why has Spike Lee not blamed the government for causing this problem? Where are FEMA’s debit cards or trailers? He and his cohorts concluded we have better politicians than New Orleans did, and we don’t need their telethons.

    So far, the Corps reps tell me we on our farm are blessed. I agree. My wife and I are still home when we thought we would be in Omaha by now.

    Michele Bachmann is a good, talented woman. She is just misguided, and not suited to be president. In my opinion, she is even less qualified than Obama or Palin. Its early in the campaign. Right now, Bachmann is thriving on emotion as Obama, Palin, and Trump did. I don’t think she will survive. The liberal press and moderate Republicans will shred her as they did Palin, and that will be a favor to the Republicans.

  375. Since this is, ostensibly, a PROGRESSIVE blog, I’ve got a contribution today that links back to viewpoints representative of our blog mistress, Helen, here.

    http://pleasecutthecrap.typepad.com/main/what-has-obama-done-since-january-20-2009.html

    Here’s just the introduction to an extensive list of the president’s accomplishments that follow on that link.

    Enjoy.

    ***
    “To Those Who Consider President Obama a Disappointment; You’re Just NOT Paying Attention!

    “If you think President Obama is a failure, or you’re “disappointed” in him, the problem pretty much has to be you. So far, this president has done most of what he said he would do, and he’s only halfway through his first term. Not only is he NOT a “failure,” he’s pretty much the opposite. Hell; he even took out Osama bin Laden, something Bush couldn’t do in eight years. Of course, Bush also said several times that he really didn’t care bout bin Laden, anyway…

    “Is he perfect? No, he’s human. Does he deserve some criticism? Sure. But criticism about certain specific problems is one thing; taking on an overall “Obama sucks” meme not only has the potential to put another Bush into power, but it’s also a lie to say, or even imply, he’s a lousy president.

    “Here is a PARTIAL list of Obama’s accomplishments so far. Unlike many lists, I actually include a link to details. I also update this list regularly, so check back often…..”

    ***
    Like I said, an EXTENSIVE list of accomplishments follow. For Helen’s progressives who try to keep up with political specifics, you might want to bookmark this site.

    Have a great day.

  376. pfesser53, I dunno, I kind of like Bachmann’s answers. That she went to that collage to get a world view. That to me shows me a person who doesn’t have their head stuck in the sand and wants to understand things from many points of view. I have found some of the people I like most in the world share this same philosophy.

    Now as I stated in the previous post dedicated to me, I do not share in a lot of the far religious rights point of view when it comes to abortion and climate change. However what you can often count on from a true religious right person is moral conviction, something we are sorely lacking in Washington today. In line with my thinking about a one term President, maybe someone like Bachmann for four years would get the job done. Short of getting a true viable 3rd party candidate I think someone like this would give us our best chance at fixing our financial problems and get things like campaign finance reform pushed through.

  377. I like Huntsman too, and I think he would be a good president. Someone in the administration said they are most afraid of Huntsman, but we don’t know if he was telling the truth.

    The Tea Party is like the Asian lady beetle which was introduced to eat the Asian aphids that were damaging and in some cases destroying the soy bean crop. They did their job, but multiplied so fast some people had to shovel them out of their basements in early fall. Then, their numbers crashed after they ate most of the aphids.

    The Tea Party is also like the early revolutionary rabble rousers who provided the backbone for the revolution. The leadership pushed them aside after our victory from England.

    LIkewise, Republicans would not have won their majority in the House and majorities in many state legislatures without the Tea Parties. But the time will come when like the Asian lady beetles, they will do more harm than good. I don’t know when we will reach that time.

    Thanks, PFessor. Our local nuclear power plants have made the national news and even Coast to Coast. The interstate is closed on both sides of us for now. Our detour to Omaha closed yesterday. People can still get where they have to go, but it takes a lot longer. Crews are working with concrete barracades, sand bags, and pumps to reopen the two highways because of their importance.

    The water on our lake which used to be a farm rose eight inches yesterday. My camera zoom lense shows water to be over the foundation of our neighbor’s house which is on a high spot. The flag is still flying.

    Four inches of rain fell on us in seven days. Two storms gave us 70MPH wind or more, and also long power outages. We had to clean our refrigerator twice.The last was on Sunday night. Limbs nearly blocked some local roads. When I checked our western farm yesterday, a tree limb caught in the undercarriage or our car, and it dragged along for awhile before it was free. The road to our farm is closed, so I don’t know if anyone will remove the tree limbs.

    Omaha and Council Bluffs are beseiged. Their dikes are holding, but the water table is rising. Heavy rain in the low parts of both cities sent water up to the door handles of cars in some spots, and people had to temporarily evacuate until huge pumps removed the water. They have also had problems with sewers backing up.

    We are like a herd of zebras watching the lions which attack at random when they are hungry. No one knows what will happen because this is beyond anyone’s experience.. The corps of engineers and weather service say it will get worse before it gets better. 32% of the water which needs to pass by has gone with 68% to go. They tell us the nuclear plants are find so far, though water is inside parts of them, and they expect them to stay safe based on flood calculations.

    However, the old and new dikes were not designed for such a long-term flood. Levis are breaking now, and this water will be with us at least through late August and September. This is affecting people’s mental health. Someone told my wife our county’s mental health service is noticing the difference. The Salvation Army has started an emotional health service.

  378. Ever wonder what informs Michele Bachmann’s worldview? (dup post @ Rutherford’s)

    Bachmann honed her view of the world after college, when she enrolled at the Coburn Law School at Oral Roberts University, an “interdenominational, Bible-based, and Holy Spirit-led” school in Oklahoma. “My goal there was to learn the law both from a professional but also from a biblical worldview,” she said in an April speech.

    At Coburn, Bachmann studied with John Eidsmoe, who she recently described as “one of the professors who had a great influence on me.” Bachmann served as his research assistant on the 1987 book Christianity and the Constitution, which argued that the United States was founded as a Christian theocracy, and that it should become one again. “The church and the state have separate spheres of authority, but both derive authority from God,” Eidsmoe wrote. “In that sense America, like [Old Testament] Israel, is a theocracy.”

    You want this woman as president? Not me, boy-o-boy, not me.

    God when are the ReBiblicans ever going to come to their senses?

  379. Hi Congenial Gang,

    Coming up for air from my projects. I’m making progress! The Wheels of Justice do turn slowly but they eventually get there. Three big-ticket items I’m sure all of you know about but here is my opinion of them anyway.

    The scumbag Blagojevich was convicted on 17 counts. That should take the wind out of his sails for a while. What goes around, comes around – – – eventually.

    Oh my, that distinguished proto-feminist, Michelle Bachman seems to have overtaken Romney in the approval of the regressive voters of Iowa. We can now add her name to the long list of other polymaths such as Émilie du Châtelet. Bachmann has way outstripped that other outstanding champion of elite intellectualism, Sarah Palin in the affection of the Hawkeye State.

    Meow.

    One of the last frontiers on civil rights took place in New York with the passage of the Gay Rights Bill. As an avowed heterosexual, I have always been mystified by why sexual orientation was anybody else’s business. We may just become civilized one of these days in spite of ourselves!

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom.

    Auntie Jean

  380. Noah – I’m really liking this Huntsman guy. The polls say that he’s not even on the radar, but unless he gets caught behind the barn with a goat, I predict he will be an important player. We’ll see.

    Wonder how James is doing? I’ve been watching the news; man what a bloody mess out there!

  381. His response? “If that is the price I have to pay, I will gladly pay it.”

    I remember those days well. We could surely use some men of principle like that today.

    I agree 110% PFesser. What we need is someone who is willing to be a 1 term President willing to do what it takes to get us back on the right path, be willing to be hated for the choices he makes to do what is right.

  382. Fantastic program on the Military Channel tonight with Morgan Freeman. It chronicles Lyndon Johnson’s conversion from southern racist to champion of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. He was told that if he got that bill passed he would give the south to the Republican party for two generations, minimum. And on top of that, he would be unelectable.

    His response? “If that is the price I have to pay, I will gladly pay it.”

    I remember those days well. We could surely use some men of principle like that today.

  383. NOP –

    I think you may be mistaken. There are a lot of us Independents – former Republicans – sitting on the sidelines and voting for the least heinous candidate on either side. To have a reasonable, likeable Republican candidate who knows something other than just to scream “Jaezzzzzusss!!!” as an answer to any question? It would be beyond our wildest hopes. Believe me, most of us are as disgusted with the ReBiblicans as you are. And frankly I’m getting a little testy about the Tea Party, too…

  384. Backfrom a weekend of camping. I am always amazed how I wonder how I am going t get through a weekend without all my gadgets then when the weekend is over I am wishing I could stay another week.

    If memory serves I think Huntsman is the former Utah Republican Gov. Don’t know a lot about him but I will dig some. I do out of the shoot like a president who has executive government experience.

  385. What should worry you, PFesser, is I wouldn’t necessarily have to immediately emigrate if Huntsman was elected. For that reason alone, I don’t think he can make it through the GOP primary system.

  386. Noah –

    I have had a chance to do a little digging on Jon Huntsman. He looks pretty good! Unlike Snowdrift Snooki, for example, he actually knows about other countries’ existence, is “spiritual” but not a religious zealot, likes kids (lots of ‘em!) He is not an anti-intellectual git – so far I like what I see. Do you, James, Craig, et al have any thoughts on this guy? For once I’m kind of excited – if you know something really bad about him let me down easy, OK?

  387. I hope no one minds if I bring up something off the subject. I listened to Obama’s speech about the drawdown of troops in Afghanistan. I have been following some of the commentary about it since then. I am not sure what to think about it right now.

    I have a limited experience in the military as I am sure the men and some of the women on this blog do too. I was a non-com. In retrospect, I was very young and had only a vague idea of what we were fighting for. I put in my tour of duty and did what I was told. I didn’t like it much. I was lucky that I got out unscathed. Then I got on with my life. But thanks to my service, I was able to complete my education and buy my first home on the GI Bill.

    I do know that we Americans would resent having foreign troops and installations on our soil. For years we have had large numbers of our military in permanent bases all over the world. Europe, South Korea, even South America. Exactly what are they doing there? Soldiers are trained to fight.

    Considering the state of our economy here at home, wouldn’t it be wise to re-evaluate the expenditures of personnel and equipment necessary to maintain those bases?

  388. Wayne, I agree 191%

    Cause for some people to celebrate. Pretty amazing find.

    http://www.newser.com/story/121830/extreme-diet-can-cure-diabetes-researchers-say.html

  389. The President addressing the 10th Mountain Division today at Fort Drum:

    “First time I saw 10th Mountain Division, you guys were in southern Iraq. When I went back to visit Afghanistan, you guys were the first ones there. I had the great honor of seeing some of you because a comrade of yours, Jared Monti, was the first person who I was able to award the Medal of Honor to who actually came back and wasn’t receiving it posthumously.”

    As we all know, SSG Sal Giunta, of the 173rd Airborne, was the first living recipient (2011) of the MOH who fought in Iraq/Afganistan. SFC Jared Monti, 10th Mountain Division, was KIA in Afghanistan in 2006. He was posthumously awarded the MOH by Obama in 2009.

    How does the Commander-in-Chief mix these heroes up? He put that medal around Giunta’s neck and he stood with Monti’s parents as they grieved. These fallen heroes leave such a great legacy, and we should know all their names. The ironic part of the speech, and this comes after the announcement of the politically pressured drawdown of troops in Afghanistan, was Obama’s closing remark, “Know that your Commander-in-Chief has your back.”

    Had this been George Bush, Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachmann, the Chatty Kitchen crowd would be banging pots and pans.

    But the Imbecile CiC? (crickets)

    The Audacity of a Dope…

  390. Elsie,

    It’s late. I’m done. Perry’s an asshat for a multitude of reasons, mostly because Texas is dire straits, and he keeps lying about all of that.

    Clueless.

    My wife works in Texas – it is far superior with respect to business than any state standing. The jobs you seek that have either been created or relocated – check oil, pharmaceutical and tech for starters. High paying jobs – not McDonald’s jobs like President Zero brags about creating. Jobs liberals are fit for.

    You can lie to yourself all you want, but 65% of Texas is laughing at you.

    Perry has won three terms, including blowing away a popular Senator in the primaries last year. The general election wasn’t even close.

    You libs are big on mouth and short on facts. That’s why we’re so happy you stay pat where you are. The last thing we need is a bunch of sponges moving down here and screwing up a good thing.

  391. Geert Wilders acquitted:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13883331

  392. alaskapi, I’ll check back when I can. You sound rich to me too. This is an historic flood, in part because of its duration.

    My family is long-lived. Most were active until they died in their mid nineties. My aunt died two weeks before her hundredth birthday. I am aiming for 100 and tease our children that I plan to be a burden on them. Our son says I can live in a box in their back yard. Our daughter says she will put the box in her garage and asks “does that make me the good child?”

  393. Hi PFessor, yes, we have a plan for almost everything. I returned from scouting the flood and discovered the water is about eight feet from the bottom of the bridge near our home. After another few days, I will be able to dangle my feet in the water when sitting on the bridge. Usually the water is over twenty feet from the base of the bridge. The water is slowly creeping across our corn field toward our house. So far, we have lost a third of this year’s income to the flood.

    Our two acres of sweet corn is gone, so I planted seven rows south of our house. It is beginning to emerge. A freeze killed most of our cherry blossoms, but we face a wonderful raspberry crop. I usually pick about a gallon of black raspberries.

    We thought we would be living in Omaha by now, so life is good and lived day to day.

    Camp grounds are full of people who were flooded out, but others have moved in because though their homes are dry, they need to be closer to their jobs. Closed roads have added hours to commute times.

    Noah, I think most executive orders coming from Bush, Obama, or any other president are dangerous. Let Congress vote on Executive Order 86. I don’t have time to go into detail. Just listen to the Dandy Warholl’s Godless on you tube. It covers my thoughts pretty well.

    Undecided, we had a similar experience. After my father died, we needed a vacation, but our Ford Escort was behaving badly. I called the Omaha dealership where we bought it, and the mechanic gave me his best guess–a failing transmission. He thought we could travel safely if we were careful.

    My wife couldn’t go because teachers had to be at school before their students, so our two teenagers and I set out for the upper Great Lakes. We were at the Mall of America when the car froze up , and I called a garage, but we were stuck in a motel near the Mall.. The problem was intermittent, and the mechanics couldn’t find what had made the car malfunction. Thus, we three spent a week trapped next to the Mall of America. Our daughter said on Sunday that that was the best vacation trip we ever took. A local mechanic had installed new brakes backward.

  394. LOL Jean and PFesser!
    Much of the dueling notions on the tension between generations in those jokes!
    James- check back in when you can. Have lived through some catastrophic floods but as I live where the land is steep and near the sea it is of a different type altogether. Water rises sharply, tides hold it back, reaches amazing heights and then is gone… the idea of weeks and months of flooding is hard to get hold of for me.
    And don’t ever think my life has been tough neighbor- it’s had it’s ups and downs and all but worries and upsets aside I’ve gotten to do and see and be part of countless rich everyday people type experiences and places things- and count myself a rich person whether my bankbook agrees with me or not.

  395. congrats PFesser, doctor in the family is always great bragging rights for any parent. I can only hope I am as fortunate with my child.

  396. My son just told me he wants to go to medical school. God bless the young, for they will make the medical advances that allow us to live yet *another* twenty years beyond our usefulness and be one more tax burden to them as they struggle to raise *their* families.

  397. Around 1906, when airplanes had just been invented, an old farmer took his six year-old son to see an early barnstormer who was flying around the countryside, showing off the newfangled invention.

    As the pilot worked on his crude airplane, the old farmer approached and asked skeptically, “What’s it good for?”

    The pilot looked at the little boy and said, “What’s HE good for?”

    Taken aback, the farmer said, “Well, nothing right now, but someday he will be a man!”

    “Precisely,” said the pilot.

    no mas, te Salami
    PFesser

  398. Hi Congenial Gang,

    This new WordPress protocol is giving me fits!

    A self-important college freshman walking along the beach spotted an elderly gentleman. He took it upon himself to explain to the senior citizen why it was impossible for the older generation to understand his generation.

    “You grew up in a different world, actually an almost primitive one. The young people of today grew up with television, jet planes, space travel, man walking on the moon. We now have nuclear energy, cell phones, texting, computers with light speed….. and many more things.”

    After a brief silence the senior citizen responded: “You’re right, son. We didn’t have those things when we were young….. so we invented them. Now, you arrogant little shit, what are YOU doing for the next generation?”

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom.

    Auntie Jean

  399. Testing

  400. I live in a semi-rural community with proximity to a large city. I bought my car from a dealer in the city. While it was still under warranty, I took it there for routine maintenance. I admit it is foreign made. I have been well satisfied with it.

    Not long ago it developed a suspicious noise. I decided to take it to a small local garage for repairs. The owner had his mechanic look it over. He had a small TV going constantly on Fox News. While I waited it was obvious he wanted to talk politics and his many problems as a small business owner. The mechanic came out and said the car needed a part that would have to be ordered. They both poured over a large catalogue. I was told they would call me when it came in and that it was OK to drive the car in the meantime. The noise continued.

    When he called several days later I was told I would have to leave the car for most of the day. That was an inconvenience because my wife has a career too. We had to adjust our schedules to her car. Although I do not punch a time clock, I do have work to do and deadlines to meet. When I picked up the car after the part was put in the noise continued. I had to take it back twice with the same routine. I rented a car in the interim.

    Finally the fifth time, I made an appointment with the dealer in the city. I realize now I should have done that in the first place. It took about ten minutes with my car up on the rack for the mechanic to show me the problem. The garage had installed the wrong part and had tried to jam it into place. Continuing to drive it could have blown out the whole engine. The dealer had the correct part in stock and installed it in a short time. You don’t want to know the total of the bills from the local garage, the dealer and the rental car.

    This is an isolated incident I know. I am an American. It bothers me that a foreign company can build a better product and maintain it more efficiently for less time and money it than our homegrown variety.

  401. so = do

  402. OYB say what you like, but when you fabricate things about me I call you on it..simple as that. And I made no presumptions, just stated the painfully obvious.

    What does a Liberal in San Francisco,so when they find they have a little extra time on their hands? They write legislation banning goldfish. …..really?

  403. My respectful and sincere apologies, Ms. Pi. Thank you for your thoughtful dialogue and kind correction of my error.

    Noah, I am not the one setting up a bunker, so don’t presume my foundation is fear. You seem to think you are above constructive criticism even from people on your own side, so I regret wasting my time. Carry on. And on. And on.

  404. Would be interested to hear what James and others think of Executive Order 86. Watch for the word Sustainable.

    Section 1. Policy. Sixteen percent of the American population lives in rural counties. Strong, sustainable rural communities are essential to winning the future and ensuring American competitiveness in the years ahead. These communities supply our food, fiber, and energy, safeguard our natural resources, and are essential in the development of science and innovation. Though rural communities face numerous challenges, they also present enormous economic potential. The Federal Government has an important role to play in order to expand access to the capital necessary for economic growth, promote innovation, improve access to health care and education, and expand outdoor recreational activities on public lands.

  405. Hi James –
    Sounds like you are taking charge of your disaster and your life. Good for you. I was thinking about how long the levees would hold once they got waterlogged. From what you say you are still at home. Man, I feel for you – and the Corps. At least people have sympathy for you; the Corps are slimy dogs.

    re: what others think of you. Right on. Family and self only. Agreed. If one needs external affirmation, one has problems.

    re; those who “left.” I think your assessment is spot-on. How DARE some as unenlightened and unreconstructed and – well, LOWER CLASS as yourself disagree with me!!! I’ll take my ball and go home. It reminds me of the last scene in M*A*S*H, where O’Houlihan (sp?) threatens to resign her commission and Henry – who is in bed with one of her nurses, says, “Well, Goddamn it, Hot Lips, RESIGN your Goddamned commission!” All I have to say to the quitters is, “Resign your commission. And don’t let the screen door hit you on the ass on the way out.” Feh.

  406. I couldn’t make the link work. Missouri River Flooding 2011 Lee Valley Inc on google worked for me. Some of the pictures were taken in our neighborhood.

    Keep the faith, Noah.

  407. We have had an interesting time. The nearest flood water is in our corn field 1/4 mile west of our house.We have more sand bags for the top of our dike if we need them. Yesterday, we had to clean our refrigerator after a twelve hour power outage following a severe thunderstorm. Our porch was damaged too. 3 inches of ran fell and it is hard to tell which ponds are rain water and which are from the flood.

    I don’t have much time for this, and I only read a few of the most recent posts. I like Pfessor’s deliniation of conservatives, liberals and asses. I also like alaskapi’s comments, because I know how she feels from when I hung around with a group of black air men in the Air Force and how liberals treated we veterans when we came home. Other people look down on my type because we live west of the Mississippi and are rural folks.Comments about Omaha’s hosting the College World Series come to mind. A few have used geography and class to put me down right here on this blog. I’m not saying I have experienced anything as bad as alaskapi or others have, but I have a hint of how it must be–maddening.

    “I spend a lot of time wondering what people see and hear through the lenses of their personal experiences..do you?” Yes, I do, and what I “see” when you write, alaskapi, is a good person. You are likely better than those who harshly judge you because of your heritage or social status. As for myself, I only care what my family and I think of me. The rest can get bent.

    This is just my opinion only supported by impressions. Some of the people who posted here regularly didn’t cope well with people who supported their arguments with logic and facts. That doesn’t mean the interlopers were always right, but several people here were unacustomed to being contradicted by people from a political class they didn’t like.

    Again, this is only based on reasons several people gave for leaving the site. I believe their departure is similar to “white flight” when the first black family moved into a white neighborhood during the sixties and seventies.

    I hope Craig, Mageen, and their families are all right.

    Right now, I forming a relationship with the Corps of Engineers and learning rudiments of hydrology. Those people are telling me a lot out of gratitude for my being nice, because most of the public would like to string them up if they could. This will last into autumn, and no one knows what will happen. No one knows how long dikes and levies will last because they were not designed for more than a week or so of flooding. Flood water weighs a lot, and it will find a way to reach low places. If it doesn’t push the dike over, it will come up from the ground. The water release will go up to 160,000 cfs tomorrow and may go even higher through late August.

    The poor people who are leaving their homes in Minot, ND this afternoon are feeling the worst of it now. That water is moving toward Winnipeg and Brandon.

    Besides KFAB.com, http://www.leevalley.net/missouririverflood.atm posts regular pictures of the flood.

  408. Maybe if he wasn’t so busy looking for UN approval Obama could keep even his most simple promises.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/whatever-happened-to-those-white-house-solar-panels-obama-promised/

  409. need to proofread sorry sights should be cites i believe.

  410. I am starting to wonder which country Obama is President of. He sights UN approval as his reason for being able to go to war and that because of the permission of the UN he didn’t need to seek the approval of Congress.

    Now we have executive order #86. ( yes he has made 86 executive orders to date) With this order he is following the guidelines put forth in the UN’s UN plan for Sustainable Development known as Agenda 21.

    Maybe instead of being a Messiah, we should dub him Puppet?

  411. well PFesser- I have a very different take on the neighbors who are enjoying their conversation in what you call the Chatty Kitchen as I visit over there some too.
    I have to go to work and they are perfectly capable of standing up for themselves but I would like to leave something for folks to think about…
    Unless you know what you are looking at I appear as a slightly exotic white person. I am at least a quarter Aleut, maybe up to a half- no one knows enough about my maternal grandfather to know and he would never speak about his beginnings much.
    I have stood beside my well educated successful mother and watched and listened to people speak down to her all my life. They speak slowly and carefully like she’s deaf or mentally slow and make assumptions about her ability to process information based on external appearance only.
    Folks also do not make the family connection between us side by side though my face is her face- just a different skin color.
    I spend a lot of time wondering what people see and hear through the lens of their own experience …do you?

  412. I have 16 people that I would consider social friends that I see in person at least 1 time a month or more. Of them 3 are conservatives and the rest are very Liberal. Politics has no bearing at all on if I can be friends with someone or not. None at all.

    As a guy I tend to like logical things. I have real issues dealing with and understanding emotional arguments. I can logically defend conservative values. I can look at these values and say with all honesty they stand up to the moral and ethical standards that i have. I can hold them up to scrutiny and often do and they always hold water.

    Liberal philosophy doesn’t make logical sense. I find many ethical and moral issues with this way of thinking. I find that logic tends to debunk most Liberal philosophies. I always look to Gert’s Rules as my measure if something is moral and right. Liberal ideology violates many of these rules. I do not subscribe to the idea of situational ethics, something that I feel is a requirement to have Liberal beliefs.

  413. alaskapi –
    Well spoken. At the risk of sounding like George Wallace (“Some of my best friends are Nigrahs.”) I want to say the same about Liberals – they are some of my Very Best Friends.

    But I want to distinguish between what I call Real Liberals, Real Conservatives and Real Horse’s Asses. The first two argue like hell but always maintain a respect for – and a belief in – the fundamental decency of the other side.

    When someone stops doing that, they are in my book the Horse’s Ass, and I will be on them like a duck on a June bug – I don’t care what their politics. That is why IMHO several chronic posters here have slunk off to the Chatty Kitchen with their backsides stinging. We are, after all, all Americans – and we deserve the respect that implies.

    Back later. Gotta go put my soap box away.

  414. One small correction OYB- Alaska Pi is a she. An increasingly cranky and worried, almost old woman who is looking more and more at what we are handing off to our kids and grandkids. They have to take the world we hand them and right now it’s a mess.
    Some days I can’t get past the hope I die before my grandkids are old enough to come knocking on the door asking what the hell we were all thinking.
    Some days I see glimmers of what we might do to straighten things up some before we leave the house to them.
    Noah-
    Whatever the liberal “condition” is, I’m suffering far more from arthritis than the liberal thingy has ever called down on me.
    As for the DISease-of-liberalism meme… pfft.
    I am fully at ease in my liberalism.
    It has long seemed to me that humans have need of the each and both – whether merely to curb the excesses of each that we may all stumble along semi-intact .
    Since just about every human community has had and has a relatively static distribution of each I’m thinking it serves a purpose
    I could be wrong- it could be in the water ;-)

  415. undecided –

    Not to steal M or H’s thunder,but welcome to the forum! They don’t post much, but are bright and ornery and when they do, (usually Helen) they get the juices really flowing.

    The level of conversation here varies but is generally pretty high. Lots of strong feelings, and an occasional off-topic poster waxing eloquent and long with his/her particular fetish, but if you don’t let that bother you it is definitely worth wading through.

  416. OYB dont sweat it. I won’t hold you accountable for not reading the very last post so let me hold your hand and help you out. In the post riiiiight above yours I said,
    alaskapi, if you can great. Why I chose to say Liberal and not you by name. I am trying to be broad in my description of the Liberal condition and not call anyone person on here out on my description.

    That would mean my good man that I was not targeting him specifically. Age happens to us all, happy to be of service.

    Now I understand as a not-so-in-the-closet Liberal why you would see this information about Texas as too good to be true, so by all means continue to look for that stormy cloud.

    Are you so wrapped up in your fear of what’s to come that you have given up making a difference?

    I have fears but I am not afraid if that can make any sense to someone such as you? Politics is just a bunch of ideas floating around trying to accomplish some thing be it good or bad. Nothing to fear there if one is truly open minded. Problem we have here is almost no one is open minded. And even fewer have any integrity. We have posted on scores of Liberal Dems who have been caught in one scandal or another and not one time has anyone had anything to say or denounced the activity. A Republican leaves his car running to go get a beverage in the store, and they paint him an enemy of the Earth and contributing to global warming.

    How us conservatives differ? We have integrity to pick out what is right and wrong and call it like it is, even when it is not to our advantage. On Glen Beck yesterday Chris Christie was a person they have had a lot of good to say and have been very kind to him in the past. Due to some things that have come up in the news in the last couple days they spent 45 minutes or more raking him over the coals for what he did and said at an open town hall meeting and some measures he is introducing in the coal industry. Does not matter to anyone of any intellectual honesty what party Christie belongs too. When he strayed Glen called him on it, something you just don’t see from Liberals.

    Most of the rest of your blathering stems from your initial false premise. Step up to the plate big guy and do some more research. I will make a couple more observations.

    Then there was that stupid clip

    Stupid Clip. And you say I give conservatives a bad name, not that you are one other than your own claim, but this guy’s plight is anything but stupid. I happen to think it is a tragedy but I applaud him for his “manipulation” of the system. He did what needed to be done. I will say you are probably the most uncaring person I have seen in quite sometime to classify this guy as a nut job. He is obviously in a great deal of pain. Pain can make people desperate and do things they might not otherwise do.

    Stop being what you accuse everyone else of being. Stop arguing from a position of fear.

    I can see why you think there is a reason to be scared. You are obviously concerned about yourself first and what is in it for you personally and you feel you have a lot to lose. I however being a true conservative, and by true I mean practicing, do not depend on the government nipple to make my way through life. I chose not to trust my fate in someone else by getting a job, and I created my own, as well as jobs for others. Fear stems from ignorance, so your fear is justifiable. I come here to understand the disease that is Liberalism so I am better prepared to defend against it. I don’t fear it because conservative values make too much logical sense. I know I am on strong moral and ethical ground defending and living by these values. Now I am not so naive to think I have it all figured out or that there is only one right answer, so I come here to find why people such as yourself think otherwise.

    Your big problem seems to be with my methodology. I have been around these boards for many months. In that time I have never once attacked someone first. Many of us have previous history that you are ignorant too. Many of these people have gone out of their way to attack me personally in an attempt to drive me away. I have had my abilities as a father, and provider, called into question, what I do for a living and how I chose to spend my time criticized, nothing is beneath these people. To me that is our defining difference. I will win ethically, morally and with honor knowing I did my best to stick to my beliefs and values, while these Liberals have shown time and again, any action is justifiable as long as their agenda prevails. I guess I think “how” we get there matters.

  417. Noah, you are missing so many good opportunities. This is why I said before that you make conservatives look bad. You are doing exactly what you accuse them of! You took an actual thinking liberal like AlaskaPi and assumed he was bashing conservatives when he wasn’t at all. He was expressing the skepticism of information that we ALL should have. You must know that we’re NEVER getting the whole truth! You call them sheep but you look pretty sheepish.
    Are you so wrapped up in your fear of what’s to come that you have given up making a difference? You came out in favor of Rick Perry based on what you knew of him. Fine enough. AlaskaPi showed a lot of information why the point you favored might not be all it’s cracked up to be. You ASSUMED he was skeptical only because Perry is Republican and automatically discounted his point. You insulted him and bashed liberals again. You tossed in a reference to the Messiah (counter productive) even though AlaskaPi had shown skepticism of overall the employment picture which has to include Obama. The door was open a crack and you blew it. You make yourself look stupid when you do that. You become what you think they are!
    AlaskaPi was right that it matters what those jobs were. If the jobs were tar ball pickers then it isn’t progress. Disaster cleanup isn’t recovery.
    Then there was that stupid clip you posted about the guy who robbed a bank to get healthcare by going to jail. You swiped Obamacare like that had anything to do with it. Any liberal is going to look at that and say it’s a classic example of why single payer healthcare is needed in this country. WTF does this nut job have to do with Obamacare, pro OR con? Don’t help them, dude.
    Stop being what you accuse everyone else of being. Stop arguing from a position of fear. It makes you look irrational. You could be teaching these people something. Trashing one blog isn’t going to make any of these people wake up and realize they are wrong. With your approach, you push them farther left instead of pulling them to the center. Help our cause or shut up. Thanks.

  418. alaskapi, if you can great. Why I chose to say Liberal and not you by name. I am trying to be broad in my description of the Liberal condition and not call anyone person on here out on my description.

  419. Noah- LOL!
    Alaska has been run by Republicans for most of the last 30 years. And some damn fine ones along the way, BTW, Hickel and Hammond amongst the top. Some beanbags like Governors Murkowski and Palin too.

    Voted for some of those Rs here too- the good ones and didn’t vote for some crummy Ds.
    Don’t have any trouble giving Rs who do a good job props but not jumping on any un-inpected bandwagons either.
    And still want to know about the data about those TX jobs- something good going on , great! Something short termy or not sustainable, then fooey.
    If you want to read that as unable to allow that an R might do something ok fine, whatever floats your boat.
    Have a hard time getting my aged R father to believe I don’t think the world of him though :-)

  420. I’m really tired tonight, and I don’t even know where to start trying to explain all the lies and misinformation spewed forth by Rick Perry.

    Rick Perry is not on CNN, MSNBC, or the Ed Schultz show reporting his own news Elsie. Freedom of information act goes a long way to uncovering what the real truth is. If everything about the 50% of jobs being created is a lie, and 14 corporations moving into Texas from California is a lie, then your Liberal media is perpetuating this lie. and your anger should lie with them for their lack of research.

    Even after this two year budget period, the state’s fiscal woes are far from over. The Lone Star State has a standing $10 billion shortfall every two-year budget cycle.

    So what your saying is Republican goes 10 billion in debt and he is Satan…a Democrat goes 1.3 trillion and debt and he is the Messiah?

    Those who figured it out, meanwhile, realized that, because the new tax was levied on gross margins as opposed to profits, companies could be losing money and still find themselves on the hook.

    We had the Michigan small business tax made by one Democrat named Jennifer Grandholm. It taxes revenue so even if your business doesn’t show a profit you still owe the state a rather large tax bill. But she was a Lib so we can let that slide right?

    blah-blah-blah….but our state and our citizens are suffering, and much worse is coming

    Aside from the very articulate response, what is coming?

    Educators and staff in my school district are being laid off by the hundreds

    So I will find no state run by a Liberal where teachers are being laid off?

    arrogant cronyism.

    could you give me a Liberal definition of not only cronyism, but arrogant cronyism? This should be 2 separate definition if you were not keeping count.

    So what your saying is that all of these jobs are either non existent, tainted, or somehow so bad that he cannot be given any credit for them? Ok lets say for the sake of argument this is so. This would mean all the credit the Messiah has been taking for job creation has to be adjusted 50% downward. Would you then by this readjustment say that the Messiah is still doing a good job, and that we are still in an economic recovery?

  421. I’m sorry….I found two more good sites about Perry’s lies….
    take a look and get educated —

    http://www.texaskaos.com/

    Also, notice —

    http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/rachel-maddow-debunks-praise-rick-perrys-t

    “…Texas has created 265,000 “net new jobs” since the recession ended in June 2009 through April 2011, the (Wall Street) Journal reported.

    “Texas’ unemployment rate tells a different story. It has gone up from 7.7% to 8.0% over that same period. And by that measure, Texas has done worse than the rest of the country since the peak of national unemployment in October 2009: that month the U.S. rate was 10.1% and Texas was 8.2%. Texas peaked at 8.3% last December, dropping to 8.0% in April, while the national rate has dropped a point since it’s peak to 9.1%…”

    Plenty more there….Have at it….

  422. Welcome undecided. Look forward to hearing from you.

    alaskapi, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised but there is always a double standard. When the Messiah does anything positive, he is not greeted with any of this intense scrutiny or suspicious doubt. People here are still cheering about finally being in an economic recovery, because Obama and the media told them so, yet the housing market is in its worst shape in history and unemployment continues to rise.

    1%, 5%, maybe 10% I can see the argument, lets wait and see. One does not accomplish the monumental task of creating 50% of all the new jobs in the nation in a single state by mishap or accident. While you are waiting for the other shoe to drop, millions of people are unemployed and wondering how they are going to support themselves and their families.

    How big does the success have to be for a Liberal to give credence and support to a Republican? This is an amazing accomplishment no matter how you look at it. IF at the end of the day Liberals still cannot give props because it is a Republican, then I have some sound evidence that this country’s best interest has nothing to do with the Liberal agenda. Does it really matter if it is a Liberal or Conservative, Democrat or Republican as long as at the end of the day we get back on the path to recovery?

  423. I’m really tired tonight, and I don’t even know where to start trying to explain all the lies and misinformation spewed forth by Rick Perry. Take a peek at the following link, and maybe you will get a feel for why you cannot believe what he says. He’s a master at twisting facts, deleting information, making accusations, and throwing out “the dog whistle phrases” that appeal to his base.

    “The Texas Observer” came out with a great article today at http://www.tnr.com/node/90370

    “Rick Perry: Why His Texas Record Is Much Worse Than You Think” — Notice the budget gap, the draconian budget cuts, accounting tricks to soften blows to state programs, short-funding Medicaid nearly $5 billion, cutting education by $4 billion.

    In fact,

    “It will mark the first time Texas has cut funding for public schools since 1949, when the state first took a prominent role in financing them. Even the Texas Association of Business, a conservative, pro-business coalition if ever there was one, has expressed concerns over some of the cuts to schools and early childhood education.

    “Our state runs the risk of falling short on our commitment to Texas school children and businesses that rely on a well-educated workforce,” the group proclaimed in one March press release.”

    That’s not the least of it, though…

    “Even after this two year budget period, the state’s fiscal woes are far from over. The Lone Star State has a standing $10 billion shortfall every two-year budget cycle, thanks to a faulty tax system pushed by Perry that fails to balance the budget.”

    …”Perry engineered a new business tax in 2006 to replace a prior one riddled with loopholes. Ostensibly a good idea, his new tax nonetheless suffered from the simple fact that it didn’t bring in enough revenue. Furthermore, it turned out to be incredibly complex, leaving many business owners scratching their heads. Those who figured it out, meanwhile, realized that, because the new tax was levied on gross margins as opposed to profits, companies could be losing money and still find themselves on the hook.

    “State legislators on both sides of the aisle have decried Perry’s ill-conceived fiscal planning. The chief Senate budget writer, Republican Steve Ogden, hasn’t been afraid to mince words about just how bad the business tax is….”

    Like I said, read the whole thing at http://www.tnr.com/node/90370.

    Do NOT believe anything that Perry says. He’s been a horrible governor. He says what the Republicans want to hear….big business…blah-blah-blah….but our state and our citizens are suffering, and much worse is coming.

    Educators and staff in my school district are being laid off by the hundreds. Texas is in deep trouble, made far worse by Perry’s bad decisions and arrogant cronyism.

    Google “Trans Texas Corridor”…. a truly horrible plan of Perry’s to build a boondoggle. This was to be a “massive super-highway-rail-utility project launched by Governor Perry in 2002. Ten vehicle lanes, six rail tracks, utilities, pipelines, state concessions (gas stations, restaurants, motels, stores, warehouses, etc.) all on 4,000 miles of toll roads that will consume more than one-half million acres of Texas”. One estimate was a cost of $185 billion in tax dollars, and then all of it would be turned over to a Spanish consortium to collect tolls and run it! Right….a company from SPAIN. You had to wonder how big the payoffs were to Perry and his cronies for all that nonsense. The voters rejected that bullshit.

    Google “Texas governor orders STD vaccine for all girls”….that executive order was going to benefit his buddy, the Merck lobbyist, and Merck, of course, as well as maybe some other friends of Perry, by forcing Texas parents to have their young daughters used as guinea pigs, statewide, for STD vaccinations. That also backfired, due to parental outrage.

    It’s late. I’m done. Perry’s an asshat for a multitude of reasons, mostly because Texas is dire straits, and he keeps lying about all of that.

    READ THE LINK!

    http://www.tnr.com/node/90370

  424. Hello. I have been going around to different blogs for a long time, reading but not commenting. I don’t care for the one liner snipping. I recently came across this one. The ladies are amusing but I find the comment section is a much more intelligent conversation than most blogs. I have business to tend to and my free time is often only late at night. I cannot comment as frequently as many, but I will continue to read. May I join in?

    I am a lifelong independent. I try to concentrate on the issues and not too much on individuals. This country has serious problems that need to be addressed. I like to read differing views from other places and how they are approached. I also like to read opinions but prefer if they are cited. It is easier to tell the bias that way.

    The inter-net has become an information phenomenon. Often it is more widely read and respected than any other media. I would suspect that sociologists are studying the effects on public opinion. I am sure it hold more than any other influences in modern times.

    Thank you.

  425. You can call me sour if you want, I call myself cautious.
    I come from a young state whose whole history is based on booms and busts and bending over backwards for corporate interests.
    There’s a whole contingent of folks who wish for another Exxon-Valdez type oil spill here because the money flowed like wine then. While they are obviously not terribly interested in sound fiscal policy or sustainable jobs and growth it is always in the back of my mind when people talk jobs- what kind of jobs, wages, and who is hiring…
    If Texas has figured out how to encourage long term jobs without giving away the farm (play now , pay later like CA and a couple others did) I’ll dance in the streets- my neighbors already think I’m goofy.
    If they are having a mini-boom and it lets folks feed themselves and house their familes I will be thankful but hope they all get enough warning when the bust comes to do something else.
    I hired a young man from Libby , Montana a year ago. Excellent worker, good person.
    We’ve talked a lot about how hard it was for him to leave his hometown and everything he grew up with to find work.
    Libby did well while a mine was there and folks didn’t want to rock the employment boat but grew more and more worried about health problems there. While W R Grace was aquitted of KNOWINGLY exposing folks to tremolite the fact remains that they did expose them for decades. The young fellow who works for me will be part of health monitoring as part of the settlement – for the rest of his life.
    “The vermiculite, with uses that included insulation, was contaminated with a deadly form of asbestos known as tremolite. More than 200 people have died and an additional 1,200 Libby residents so far have been identified as having asbestos-related lung abnormalities as a result of being exposed to the asbestos from the mine. Libby’s population totals about 8,000 people. ”

    http://meic.onenw.org/mining/hardrock-mining/mine_cleanup/w-r-grace-mine-libby/libby-background

    We have a lot of similar stories and issues here so I’m already primed to want to know what kind of jobs, from whom, etc.
    Read whatever you want to into it- I’m always for the working families of this country. Always.
    And good and decent jobs which do not pit them against themselves in other ways- like what the folks in Libby lived with as regards their largest employer.

  426. My questions for them would be more on the line of WHAT kind of jobs have been created, wages, where, what kind of accommodations have been made for businesses who are hiring, etc

    Is there an answer that can sour this accomplishment? 50% of all jobs created came from one state. 50%. I am sure the shear number of jobs we are talking about the type is all across the board. But for 1 state out of 50 to create 50% of the jobs is a success no matter what. The city 15 minutes south of where I live was the number 1 city for unemployment in the nation. I promise you the people here would be celebrating in the streets were we to see this kind of growth. Search as long and hard as you like for that storm cloud, I would rather find a way to mimic this tremendous accomplishment.

  427. well- Noah, whether you are interested or not in Elsie’s response regarding Mr Perry- I am. She’s a lifelong Texan. I’d also be interested in Craig’s take if and when he has time or inclination. ( Sure hoping things are going well for Val )
    My questions for them would be more on the line of WHAT kind of jobs have been created, wages, where, what kind of accommodations have been made for businesses who are hiring, etc. Here we have to report every person who worked for us quarterly to DoL-and the state counts people as employed whether they work 10 hrs/wk or 40. A lot of people work 2 or 3 jobs to get by but with all the fiddling with the employment data you’d think jobs are falling out of the woodwork and they are not. We’ve been lucky not to have as much trouble as many have but it’s not as rosy as some of the figures are viewed as showing.
    Thank you Helen and Margaret for having us all in. Would really like to know YOUR take on Mr Perry too, Helen!

  428. Obama Care…how great an idea was it? Lets take a real life example and search for an answer.

    http://consumerist.com/2011/06/man-holds-up-bank-for-1-and-free-prison-medical-care.html

  429. elsie09, sorry for your bout of diarrhea there, you seem passionate as predicted not because of what he has accomplished, or not, but rather that he is a Republican and for no other reason. As predicted, results are not enough for Liberals, which is telling. I cannot say at this point I would back or not back him I will have to read more. I will say I think we need a person who is willing to be a one term President, knowing he will have to do what is right for this country,, and because of those hard choices won’t be reelected, but decides what is right is more important than catering to the weakest among us.

    Fiscal issues seem to me to be our greatest problem. Unemployment seems to be a major problem right now. This guy obviously has the answers. Not because i say so, but because he has a working model that says so. Now if you can tell me we don’t need the rest of the country performing like Texas, and can make an argument that supports that. I am all ears.

  430. elsie09 –

    Thanks. I have done a little research and it appears that Perry is pretty financially savvy, so no complaints there. I dont’ care if he is a “crony” – whatever that means, if he is creating jobs for ordinary folks and he seems to get good marks there from a lot of people.

    I am concerned about his idealogy, which seems to be straight down the right-wing dominionist alley and that scares me enough to eliminate him.

    Man, are the pickin’s thin for the GOP this election! Ah, for the good old days of Dirksen, et al…honest, honorable men who are most of all, tolerant.

  431. http://juanitajean.com/2011/06/15/rick-can-crawl-back-into-his-10000-a-month-rent-house/

    BUT LET’S NOT FORGET THESE:

    http://juanitajean.com/2011/06/14/no-no-wait-he-meant-profit-not-prophet/

    which is, in turn, linked to

    ***
    Okay, that’s just about the last week, or so, of Juanita Jean’s commentary specific to Perry.

    You are on your own from there.

    Gotta get back to work.
    Have a nice day.

  432. AND ESPECIALLY THESE:

    http://juanitajean.com/2011/06/16/rick-perry-and-snake-oil-cancer-cures/

    AND

    http://www.statesman.com/news/texas-politics/documents-detail-convergens-secret-application-for-state-grant-1542611.html?cxtype=rss_news

  433. ALSO

    http://juanitajean.com/2011/06/18/but-as-anthony-weiner-proved-it-is-possible-to-text-from-your-vagina/

    http://juanitajean.com/2011/06/17/because-we-know-them-best/

  434. But, more specifically:

    http://juanitajean.com/2011/06/21/we-gotta-get-out-of-this-place-if-its-the-last-thing-we-ever-do/

    http://juanitajean.com/2011/06/20/god-answers-rick-perrys-prayer-for-rain-heres-ya-some-brimstone-cowboy/

  435. Rick Perry is the personification of Gee-Oh-Pee cronyism. He is often described as “just like George W. Bush, but not as smart”.

    Here are a couple of websites that can educate anyone who might be interested in learning a bit more about Perry from the perspectives of actual Texans:

    ***

    http://www.burntorangereport.com/diary/10951/rick-perrys-coverup-and-corruption-a-ten-part-series

    and

    http://juanitajean.com/

  436. Rick Perry is the personification of Gee-Oh-Pee cronyism. He is often described as “just like George W. Bush, but not as smart”.

    Here are a couple of websites that can educate anyone who might be interested in learning a bit more about Perry from the perspectives of actual Texans:

    ***

    http://www.burntorangereport.com/diary/10951/rick-perrys-coverup-and-corruption-a-ten-part-series

    and

    http://juanitajean.com/

    ***
    But, more specifically:

    http://juanitajean.com/2011/06/21/we-gotta-get-out-of-this-place-if-its-the-last-thing-we-ever-do/

    http://juanitajean.com/2011/06/20/god-answers-rick-perrys-prayer-for-rain-heres-ya-some-brimstone-cowboy/

    http://juanitajean.com/2011/06/18/but-as-anthony-weiner-proved-it-is-possible-to-text-from-your-vagina/

    http://juanitajean.com/2011/06/17/because-we-know-them-best/

    AND ESPECIALLY THESE:

    http://juanitajean.com/2011/06/16/rick-perry-and-snake-oil-cancer-cures/

    AND

    http://www.statesman.com/news/texas-politics/documents-detail-convergens-secret-application-for-state-grant-1542611.html?cxtype=rss_news

    AND

    http://juanitajean.com/2011/06/15/rick-can-crawl-back-into-his-10000-a-month-rent-house/

    BUT LET’S NOT FORGET THESE:

    http://juanitajean.com/2011/06/14/no-no-wait-he-meant-profit-not-prophet/

    which is, in turn, linked to

    http://blog.chron.com/texaspolitics/2011/06/perry-describes-himself-as-a-prophet-tells-fox-hes-thinking-about-white-house-bid/

    ***
    Okay, that’s just about the last week of so of Juanita Jean’s commentary that is specific to Perry.

    You are on your own from there.

    Gotta get back to work.
    Have a nice day.

  437. I don”t know a great deal about Rick Perry. I do know he is going a bang up job in Texas. #1 export state in the nation. Has created more jobs in Texas than the other 49 States combined. While other states were loosing jobs at an alarming rate at the height of the recession, his state created 225,000 jobs during that time. Of the 70+ companies that left California during this same time, 14 went to Texas. The Governor of California was so impressed he went to Texas to have a meeting with Perry to try and learn how he is attracting all this business. What I find delightfully ironic is that Texas has no State Income Tax. Funny how creating an economic climate friendly to business can do things for ones state. What will also be telling will be the Liberal response. I foresee 2 answers. 1) Will ignore it has it proves them wrong (they are never wrong you know) 2) Some Liberal Governor from 20 years ago set policy that made it possible for this prosperity now. End of the day results will not be enough for Liberals. I am sure he cut down a tree somewhere that made a squirrel homeless and they will crucify him for it.

  438. I just saw this Jon Huntsman guy for the first time. Noah, do you know anything about him? I checked out Rick Perry and ran away in terror, so I’m still looking for somebody decent in the Loyal Opposition to give Bo a run for his money.

    Looks like they are going to bring some of the boys (and girls) home from Afghanistan. Yay!

  439. Noah=boil on the butt

  440. Hell I will even entertain the notion you care for someone other than yourself and we can substitute jealousy for shame.

  441. If I were to guess jsri, your rantings smack of jealousy. I am out doing the work you Liberals talk about but never get the time to get done.. See if I wasn’t self motivated enough to start a business, your kind wouldn’t have a job. See, if I wasn’t out there feeding my personal greed, I would never be able to afford the $4000 we spend every summer on programs for the kids. Think I will take my proactive approach to the problems we face over your best intentions any day.

  442. jsri, just keep on guessing, seems to suit you well.

  443. Noah

    I guess you don’t read your own stuff.
    It’s your sort of logic.

  444. alaskapi. lot of information. I am struggling to find your opinion in all of this. I would assume with my understanding of what I have read you are opposed to this line of thinking.

    As with most philosophical thoughts categorized in this way, most end up being found as a whole false, but with elements of truth. An example of this is Cultural Relativism. While at the end of the day it is false as it is stated, I also believe that reworded it could be made a true statement.

    I think it is also so with Neo-Liberalism. How I would do that I am not exactly sure yet, and it might be conditional in a perfect world type scenario, but I do find elements I can support.

  445. Craig- this is also all by the way of attempting to answer a question you asked ages ago about what -do-we-do about the loss of jobs which has damaged us so badly…
    A project I’m a tiny part of here led me to this:

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-8330.2007.00536.x/abstract;jsessionid=4B15077339F4EEB52EF18C2C382388BC.d01t03

    and opened a whole series of conversations we are only just beginning to able to have about CDQs. The author here is mostly full of horsepunky as to the value of CDQs on the social justice front because the metrics for measuring such are of the sort which I think of as” taking the temperature of the picture of the people on the box the thermometer came in “- which is mostly of the variety which talks about dollars piling up here and there as if it describes the actual situation people live in.

  446. jsri, that is quite possibly the most ignorant thing I have seen on this board.

  447. alaskapi –

    A lot to digest. Let me do a little of that and see how it goes.

    jsri –

    Man, you gotta tighten up your thought processes! You can’t play with the thinkers when you spout total nonsense.

  448. PFesser-
    In a more direct response, I think we have to figure out HOW to “separate economic issues from social and political issues.”’
    At whatever level there is no stuffing it all back in the box, it is time to take stock of what we have done.
    Human institutions , of which economic policy is one, are notorious for taking on a “life” of their own. It’s tough to figure out how to make them subordinate to the humans who created them again but necessary.
    The change in what we call individual responsibility in the last 30 years has been of particular interest to me within my very left-libertarian mindset.
    In too many instances what the authors say here:

    “ELIMINATING THE CONCEPT OF “THE PUBLIC GOOD” or “COMMUNITY” and replacing it with “individual responsibility.” Pressuring the poorest people in a society to find solutions to their lack of health care, education and social security all by themselves — then blaming them, if they fail, as “lazy.”

    Around the world, neo-liberalism has been imposed by powerful financial institutions like the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the World Bank and the Inter-American Development Bank. It is raging all over Latin America. The first clear example of neo-liberalism at work came in Chile (with thanks to University of Chicago economist Milton Friedman), after the CIA-supported coup against the popularly elected Allende regime in 1973. Other countries followed, with some of the worst effects in Mexico where wages declined 40 to 50% in the first year of NAFTA while the cost of living rose by 80%. Over 20,000 small and medium businesses have failed and more than 1,000 state-owned enterprises have been privatized in Mexico. As one scholar said, “Neoliberalism means the neo-colonization of Latin America.””

    http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=376

    appears to be the consequence. The substitution of community ethics with an ethics based on the individual’s relationship to the market has largely gone un-inspected and yet pieces of it permeate our view of ourselves and each other now. Perhaps not as this author says but he’s onto pieces of it :

    “As you would expect from a complete philosophy, neoliberalism has answers to stereotypical philosophical questions such as “Why are we here” and “What should I do?”. We are here for the market, and you should compete. Neo-liberals tend to believe that humans exist for the market, and not the other way around: certainly in the sense that it is good to participate in the market, and that those who do not participate have failed in some way. In personal ethics, the general neoliberal vision is that every human being is an entrepreneur managing their own life, and should act as such. Moral philosophers call this is a virtue ethic, where human beings compare their actions to the way an ideal type would act – in this case the ideal entrepreneur. Individuals who choose their friends, hobbies, sports, and partners, to maximise their status with future employers, are ethically neoliberal. This attitude – not unusual among ambitious students – is unknown in any pre-existing moral philosophy, and is absent from early liberalism. Such social actions are not necessarily monetarised, but they represent an extension of the market principle into non-economic area of life – again typical for neoliberalism.

    The idea of employability is characteristically neoliberal. It means that neoliberals see it as a moral duty of human beings, to arrange their lives to maximise their advantage on the labour market. Paying for plastic surgery to improve employability (almost entirely by women) is a typical neoliberal phenomenon – one of those which would surprise Adam Smith.

    Eileen Bradbury, a psychologist who advises surgeons at the Alexandra Hospital in Cheadle, Cheshire, said she was particularly worried that Jenna wanted the operation so that she could be successful. “That is a very disturbing belief for a 15-year-old girl to have, and also a false one,” she said. “I have seen women coming for surgery who work in television and they say they have to have it done or they won’t get the work. I usually go along with that because it is probably true”.
    Guardian: Parents defend breast implants for girl, 15.
    In practice many ‘workfare neoliberals’ also believe that there is a separate category of people, who can not participate fully in the market. Workfare ideologies condemn this underclass to a service function for those who are fully market-compatible. Note however, that by recognising a non-market underclass, neoliberals undermine their own claims about the universal applicability of market principles.”

    http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/neoliberalism.html

    So what do you think? Others?

  449. What I learned along the way: (using Noah’s logic)

    Most business people are conservatives. (To make it simple, I’ll refer to them appropriately as Cons).

    Many business people lie, cheat, and steal.

    Ergo, Cons lie cheat or steal. Henceforth, when you think of Cons, you may think lying, cheating and stealing.

  450. P.S. JEAN, our troops still deserve that apology from your earlier smearing.

  451. Question: I know you think greed is good, but if you treat your employees like dirt, as I suspect you might, how do you stay in business?

    Might be in your best interest not to lead with assumptions jsri, whatever insights you think you have made about me seem to have lead you to many false conclusions The economy has hit Michigan hard I am making less now that I was 8 years ago. We have cut our income so we did not have to lay off a single employee. 3 of my employees take home more a week now that I do. In a years time I hope that will correct itself. As for how I stay in business, I believe a business has a responsibility to its community and to its workers. We support summer programs that keep kids off the streets while school is out. I have not had to lay off a single employee since this recession hit. We have cut our pay 75% and we are using our savings to get by. We have company activities twice a year that families are invited too, Once a month I pay for food to be brought in and treat my employees to a lunch and extend their lunch period to an hour and let them out an hour early paid. I have found this to make my workers more productive and more apt to put in overtime when needed. The company takes care of them, they take care of the company. A simple philosophy that has served me well these past 13 years.

    Question: If you are against promoting programs that serve the common good

    Might you be a tad more specific? I believe the flue shot program is for the common good and I support that. Is that what you were referring too? As for that whole going off the grid thing I think your liberal self is just shining through and your starting to be petty. Grow the f#ck up.

    Question: Do you find that it is a waste of money using taxes to support these students in state colleges or would you prefer having them out on the streets working as independent contractors jacking cars or dealing dope

    Typical Liberal question. Aside from you being an asshole I will address this. As stated before I help fund a summer program, specifically 28 individual basketball teams that play against one another on the weekend for a championship at the end of the summer. We donate to help keep the community swimming pools open. I work with West Division church providing brown bag dinners to kids. I also work with a not for profit teaching young adults how to “turn their hustle into a business.” As I stated in a previous post, I believe education should be in our top 5 expenditures as a nation. I would support in an instant performance based funded education to a Masters level. To not invest in ourselves and our kids is folly, I’m sure even you can grasp that concept.

  452. Hi Congenial Gang,

    Alaskapi, I appreciate your taking the time to help us become aware of the situation in Alaska. Few of us would have an opportunity to learn much about it in detail otherwise. You have worked hard to identify what is going on and possible solutions in this complex, ever changing world.

    And on this Father’s Day, jsri, your personal experiences are shining examples of what it means to be a successful dad and granddad.

    So jsri and alaskapi I applaud you both for the fine human beings you are! (Oops! albeit flaming Lib’ral Progressives.)

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam.

    Auntie Jean

  453. Noah! Noah! Noah!

    Issue #1. After my wife and I retired, we opened a small business that offered services to other businesses. For the first few years our employees made more than we did. We paid them the going wage for the area and offered medical benefits and a retirement plan, on a matched contribution basis. My wife concentrated on customer service while I took care of operations. In our training, we made it clear that we expected the employees to be the face of the business to our customers while we worked in the background. At the point in its evolution that the employees were taking care of business efficiently, and it was beginning to become profitable, my wife came down with a debilitating medical condition that was made worse by inept diagnoses. Her condition worsened to the point where we had to put the business up for sale.

    We found a buyer who agreed to keep the employees we had hired but within a couple months all were gone as he slashed their wages and benefits and hired relatives to replace them. He was so intent upon sucking as much money out of the business as he could manage, he failed to see that it was going down the tubes. It closed within six months. While he saw employees as automatons we saw them as humans.

    Question: I know you think greed is good, but if you treat your employees like dirt, as I suspect you might, how do you stay in business?

    Issue #2. Our grandson #1 is an exceptional student, ranking in the 99th percentile by most measures. When picking a college, he passed on the Ivies even though both his parents and two of his grandparents had degrees from one of them. His choice was a top tier university that had the sort of programs that interested him, not necessarily his parents or others. They accepted him and awarded a generous and much appreciated tuition reduction. His primary and secondary schooling were mostly private and cost his parents a small fortune. During the same period they paid substantial state and local taxes and never once thought about demanding a rebate or crying that their taxes should not support all those welfare parasites you seem so intent upon castigating. They are well aware of the costs of promoting the common good.

    Question: If you are against promoting programs that serve the common good, are you willing to withhold taxes and contract independently for things like police and fire protection, education and military support. If so, I’d like to know how you intend to carry that one off. And when you go off the grid, how will you upload your cantankerous messages to this site?

    Issue #3. Grandson, when an early teen, went to a summer camp catering mostly to inner city kids. He was so effective dealing with and helping other campers that the camp directors asked him to return the following year as a counselor in training. When he reached 16, they hired him and since then he never has had to worry about summer employment. One reason he likes the work is that he sees kids that have much more potential than they can imagine and he takes the opportunity to implant the idea in their minds that there may be much to be gained from further education. And in this morning’s paper there was a list of students from a major metropolitan area who were the valedictorians of their respective high schools who might have come from the same circumstances as the campers. Mostly foreign born, ESL students, little or no money, some will be going to top tier schools, e.g.. MIT and Ivies, but many will be attending local state colleges and universities.

    Question: Do you find that it is a waste of money using taxes to support these students in state colleges or would you prefer having them out on the streets working as independent contractors jacking cars or dealing dope?

  454. Here is an absolutely perfect example of Liberal twisting and manipulation of the truth. Look at the title of the article then read it. It is written as if all christian Republicans everywhere stood up and backed this. Rather than one misguided individual writing an opinion piece. This is EXACTLY why Liberals cannot be trusted or have anything they say taken at face value. This guy writes articles in publications like Town & Country and Reader’s Digest, and he is supposed to speak for the entire christian right? No integrity, manipulative, deceitful, all qualities the Liberal Left seem to covet.

    http://www.politicususa.com/en/religious-right-rapist-rights

  455. PFesser-

    Essential to Bromley’s arguments is inspection of underlying or un-inspected rationales:

    http://www.aae.wisc.edu/dbromley/pdfs/FISH%20FRONTIER.pdf

    something which is missing in a lot of other folks’ work.

  456. PFesser-

    I’ve been reading this gent’s work a lot and am greatly intrigued.

    http://www.aae.wisc.edu/dbromley/pdfs/italy.pdf

    It is his work in fisheries related management and law which first led me to him. He has hold of so many things about the fisheries issues here that I’ve started casting about in his other works.

    http://www.aae.wisc.edu/dbromley/

  457. Noah-
    I spent much of the last day wishing I hadn’t shot off my mouth about trying to share some of the unique situations facing the poor here in Alaska because as soon as I started trying to think about explaining it I realized the whole thing has almost no corollary outside Alaska to help explain context.
    I’ll take a couple shots at it and see where it lands…
    I’ve spent almost 40 years being involved at various levels in the issues facing rural, mostly poor , mostly native Alaska.
    In the last 10 I have had the honor of playing a tiny part in a program designed to expose young people from the villages to what lies outside their current horizons as they start to plan their futures.
    Many things in this report are still true today :
    “The 2(c) report describes the changes in the economic picture of a village:

    “As money becomes more important, subsistence survival confronts the cash economy. People are torn between moving away to larger villages and cities in search of jobs or remaining in villages where jobs are few and public assistance is one of the few means available to acquire cash for things that must be bought.”20

    “More remote villages in northern and western Alaska were less affected by these trends, but in recent years it has become apparent that all rural Alaska villagers are in an economic trap because of the transition from subsistence to cash. They are unable to return to a complete subsistence life, nor are they able to earn enough cash to buy food, supplies and services required to live comfortably in the larger villages.”21″

    from http://www.alaskool.org/projects/ancsa/tcc/tcc_ancsa.htm

  458. alaskapi –

    I saw that article. Thanks much. I have to say it has caused me to rethink a lot of things I had taken for granted. I haven’t changed my mind, mind you, but it is certainly a POV that bears investigation, because I have to say that – beginning with NAFTA – the lot of the average American has gone steadily downhill.

    But then again, I’m not sure it is avoidable no matter what. The poorer nations want their share of the pie too, and they are willing to work for a lot less in order to get it.

    Thoughts?

  459. Noah-
    I would urge you to look at this as an explanation of why I say much of what we face is not internal. The absorption of neoliberal ideas and acceptance of it’s rationale is now ingrained in our national culture , to the point we no longer question the larger framework but spend endless hours arguing with each other over it’s fallout.
    What was presumed to be a response to a crisis at the time has become a norm which has serious failings we would do ourselves a favor to look at.

    “Joseph Stiglitz, former World Bank Chief Economist (1997 to 2000), Nobel Laureate in Economics and now strong opponent of the ideology pushed by the IMF and of the current forms of globalization, notes that economic globalization in its current form risks exacerbating poverty and increasing violence if not checked, because it is impossible to separate economic issues from social and political issues.”

    http://www.globalissues.org/article/39/a-primer-on-neoliberalism#Neoliberalismis

  460. Hi Congenial Gang,

    An almost belated Happy Father’s Day to all you dads and granddads out there! Year in and year out, you are the quietly hardworking, honorable role models for the next generation or two. You are legion. My 82 year-old ‘boy toy’ is one of them. I salute all of you!!!

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam.

    Auntie Jean

  461. Ahmadinnerjacket’s call for a security alliance of several formers Societ nations and China to form a security alliance strikes me as a bluff asn in poker. It is not beyond this guy to do just that. I am thinking of some of the former Soviet nations closest to Iran and they all end in “stan” such as Kazakstan. Whereas they may have some natural resources thats about all they’ve got. And China? Why should they get in bed with him? Look at what they own! And not just us!

  462. week=weak

  463. I don’t see how this isn’t an internal problem but you are welcome to expand on that if you wish. I have spend the last 3 years becoming educated here in Michigan on the topic of inner city poor kids and families. Would be interesting to hear what is comparable with your situation in Alaska.

    Reported earlier this week, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called for a security alliance of several former Soviet nations and China to form a united front against the West.

    This to me is a sign the predators have caught the sent of a week/wounded animal. As 3rd world nations cease to be 3rd world nations I think it is inevitable that those with opposing points of view ban together against us.

    No one can argue that the housing market is at its lowest point in history. Since Obama signed the stimulus package, 1.9 million fewer people are working. We are not in a recovery as the government would have you believe. We raise the debt ceiling, we keep printing money, we are doing everything except for what we should do. We have to put our fiscal house in order while (if) there is still time left to do it.

    MY WP is all kinds of funky as well..not a big fan of the change.

  464. Noah- ANYONE who feels what we are doing, including out of control govt spending, is sustainable is asleep. Or had one too many beers after dinner…
    The arguments lie in the what-to-do-about-it column.
    I disagree that our current situation is primarily internal . We have internalized the arguments as us v them, me v you, but I think we do ourselves no favors by limiting the argument that way.
    IF you want and others can stand it I can share some of the unique situations facing much of Alaska’s poor.
    And quite frankly, Alaskans who are paying attention are extraordinarily aware of what the possible fallout of a further economic collapse might mean to their very existence…
    ————-Is anyone else battling the new WP comment dealie with your old comments reappearing and navigation within a new one making whole screen do something akin to st vitus dance?

  465. Dependency is the tool of choice when one wishes to control a population. Welfare and other social programs are the perfect way to create dependance. I am not for abolishing them but I am certainly not for creating more as this administration is doing. The results from this dependency is in front of our eyes in many of our poor today. You say this is too simplistic, I say it doesn’t need to be complex to be true.

    I understand your point of view on the end of the world stuff. However I think we are faced again with a unique set of circumstances. The threat that was yesterday was almost always from without, this time it is from within. We are doing this to ourselves. Unsustainable is a word that should scare the hell out of you. When attached to words like debt and spending, there are severe consequences when that unsustainable point is reached.

    When you look at how dependent the majority of people have become on welfare and government assistance, and technology, and how few of us know how to survive without these things. Imagine what would happen should the economy collapse.

  466. Noah- yes, it is. The similarity in your personal experience with a family member and what could be said to be part of the outfall of a government program certainly has some correspondence but is a simplistic view of poverty and welfare programs. Conservative thought has had a great hand in shaping welfare policy over the years right alongside liberal thought. The results are on all hands.
    While I sympathize with your worry and concern about what a mess things are I would say every generation has similar dark sides in working out what and where we are going.
    The 50s are viewed with rose colored glasses all too often and the many uproars of the early 60s which grew out of what was going on rocked the world of most Americans just as surely as the hash we are in now has us all up in arms.I think we would be better off to look closely at what we were doing in the 50s to undersatnd what the failures were which led to the tumult of the 50s.
    Planning an escape hatch for yourself is all well and good but the EOTWAWKI thingy has popped up regularly throughout time so it is nothing new. When I was small people were building bomb shelters in their back yards and stocking them with food and guns… same ole, same ole…

  467. “The problem is we are seeing these things taken from us one little piece at a time. It is spun in such a way that it is disguised as being for the greater good, so we accept it.”

    The death of a thousand cuts. Or, boiling a frog by raising the temperature slowly enough.

    Here’s what Brandeis had to say about it, and I think current events bear it out:

    “The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding. …”

  468. just plain silly to assume “generational poverty and dependance” flows from a single source be it welfare or whatever

    NO it is not. It is human nature to take the path of least resistance. I learned the hard way with my brother loaning him tens of thousands of dollars over the years that I was harming him by helping him. He only grew dependent upon me because when things got bad his big brother would always be there to write another check. I did him a great disservice by helping him as I did over the years and he is paying the price for that now later in life. Welfare is the same way. When the state becomes a crutch people forgot how they lived without it.

    Now I am not as you suggested trying to say it is thee single reason for poverty. Your claim that is what I meant does not debunk my argument. It is a massive contributing factor. What better way to enslave a population than to make it so they cannot live without you. 50% of people in the US right now get some form of government assistance. Who here think this trend is growing and who here thinks this is sustainable?

    Last year and this year the wife and I decided to forgo a vacation and we are stocking up on long lasting food sources and and medical supplies in a little place out of the way off the grid for us to go should the need arise. The electricians we employ to do our electrical at my business were having a conversation about this topic this past winter. They went in on a piece of property together in May and are working to have it be able to provide for both their families should things go really south. I was talking to a very affluent casual friend of mine, who I never pictured doing anything like this, and he said “what took you so long.” He had done this very thing 3 years ago. The wife and I were feeling that we might have been a bit overreacting so it was reassuring to see other, what I would consider very smart and stable people, doing the very same thing.

    In my lifetime I have never seen such a perfect storm for disaster as I see today in our country. The housing market is now worse than it was during the great depression. Our unemployment is staggering, as is our growing debt. Corruption in every level of our government. The so called fight for political correctness threatens to derail our morality, our sense of right and wrong, our faith, and the principles that this country was founded on. The problem is we are seeing these things taken from us one little piece at a time. It is spun in such a way that it is disguised as being for the greater good, so we accept it. I think we are failing to see the long term effects and the bigger picture of this all.

  469. Just plain silly to assume “generational poverty and dependance” flows from a single source be it welfare or whatever
    We all have a part in it.

    Pablo Neruda :: To the Dead Poor Man

    http://radicaljournal.com/poetry/dead_poor_man_pablo_neruda.html

    Now it dawns on us we are taking on

    all that we never gave him, and now it is late;

    he weighs on us, and we cannot take his weight.

    How many people does our dead one weigh?

    ———————————-
    The clash at the intersection of race, culture, and class has been part of human society from the beginnings of civilization.
    Current neoliberal (libertarian right ) economic policies have their fair share in institutionalizing poverty right alongside anything the liberal left has pushed.
    ——-
    A final summary definition of neoliberalism as a philosophy is this:

    Neoliberalism is a philosophy in which the existence and operation of a market are valued in themselves, separately from any previous relationship with the production of goods and services, and without any attempt to justify them in terms of their effect on the production of goods and services; and where the operation of a market or market-like structure is seen as an ethic in itself, capable of acting as a guide for all human action, and substituting for all previously existing ethical beliefs.

    http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/neoliberalism.html

    ———————

    http://www.globalissues.org/article/39/a-primer-on-neoliberalism

    ——————-
    There is a deep human tendency to assume a couple things which pretty much always bite us in the hiney but we do it anyway- all the time :-(
    We tend to assume that folks with differing POVs are an aberration .
    We tend to think that given the same information and experience people will all draw the same conclusions-.
    And we assume that is a good thing.
    I think we need all POVs to keep from falling into the ditch of extremes and to ride out the ups and downs of changing conditions.

  470. noah again:
    I hear you. We are in a world of shit and I don’t think very many people understand that. I also understand that the past_is_passed but in fairness one has to agree that the economy was in great shape when Clinton left office and that Obama inherited a bucket of very smelly doo-doo that was not his fault. The absolute disaster that a brand-new president was handed was in no way fair and although I strongly oppose Obama’s socialist agenda, I believe you have to say that it is not fair to criticize him for doing the best he knows how to mop up a mess he did not create. Once again I do not agree with his methods and think he has to be replaced but he is NOT trying to destroy this country; Bush – whom I voted for – twice (OK, I’m a slow learner) did just a fine f**king’ job of doing THAT. My suggestion for the ReBiblicans is that they hang their heads in shame, get a mop and help clean this mess up instead of criticizing those who ARE.

  471. alaskapi –
    Super poem. Hits it right on the head.

    noah –
    It has been really counterproductive for me to call folks liberals and conservatives and then say how they typify the negative things of each. It just pisses people off and – at least in my experience – it isn’t true. Everybody is complex and they resent being pigeonholed.

    My experience is that dividing people into the VERY arbitrary liberal and conservative camps does not work at all and it locks you into ways of thinking that will trap you into making some really dumb conclusions. I find some very objectionable things in some folks who self-identify themselves as liberals, and the same in those who claim they are conservative, but when you sit down and actually talk to these people and they have a chance to think about their stances they back away from the crazier stuff. There are a few of course who are just batshit crazy and you can’t talk to them at all; I just pass them by; life is too short.

    Just my .05.

  472. alaskapi,

    That was a beautiful poem.

    I just began reading a book by R. Buckminster Fuller, “Grunch of Giants”, and his intro delivers the same message – we are in this together.

    Mahalo, Namaste, Shalom.

  473. . OYB, Liberals are selling our future, and you want to play nice. We are going trillions of dollars into debt, and you want to play nice. We are having our freedom and liberties stripped from us, and you want to play nice. Liberals like JEAN besmirch our troupes openly, and you want to play nice. Obama declares war on another country, without congressional approval, saying the UN gave him all the permission he needed, circumventing the laws of our land, and you want to play nice. Liberals are spending our kids and grand kids money, and you want to play nice. Liberals want to expand government into every aspect of our lives, making us completely dependent upon them, and you want to play nice. Liberals like delurkergurl believe we can tax the wealthy unlimited with no consequences. Liberals like her believe all our money belongs to them and that anything that is given back has to be paid for, and accounted for, and you want to play nice.

    Look at what welfare did to our poor, it devastated them, creating generational poverty and dependance. Socialized healthcare is welfare all over again. An excuse for Liberals to take more from us, grow our government bigger and make us more dependent on them than over before. And still you want to play nice. What my dear sir is it going to take for you to wake up and fight?

  474. Noah

    Unhinged

  475. What do you find me at fault with OYB? Maybe where you come from being impotent and not standing up for yourself are admirable qualities. You are more than welcome to defend these folks, as I am welcome calling a spade a spade. You go ahead and place nice, sleep with the enemy and see were it gets you.

  476. I’m about as conservative as it gets and still find it amusing how Noah can be tricked by liberal fools into an irrational froth! Anon 2, poke him again! He’s waiting for it! Over and over you people are making mincemeat of him! Comedy that doesn’t involve Weiner!

    Noah, grow up. STF up – you are hideously bad for the our cause! You make conservatives look bad. You make us men look bad. Hell, you make humans look bad. GROW UP and make a POSITIVE impact somewhere!

  477. JUST IN CASE

    Just in case the worry heavy world

    Should cast a final backward glance

    To whimper at what might have been

    Before the horror of trumpets

    Blown by indifferent angels

    Burns and hails and turns to blood

    The bone and breath of form

    And I am not this

    And you are not that

    And for a moment, briefly

    We all weep the same tears

    And forget the too-many names of God

    And all the bitter, biting ways

    We clip the wings of each other’s prayers

    Just in case

    I don’t see you tomorrow

    My friend, my friend,

    I’ll see you again

    Where we shall be healed.

    I’ll see you again.
    ————
    Martin Williams, inmate poet at Folsom Prison , California

  478. Anon2, you proved yourself a Liberal and thanks for doing so so boldly with your lies. Not only did I not brush off Anonymous, I congratulated him on his post and told him I hoped for more posts in the future. Not only that I defended him when people were being a but harsh on him. Either you didn’t do your research and spoke on something you had no business commenting on, or you did and lied to further your own agenda, both typical Liberal tactics.

    As for me misrepresenting Liberals, I have a plethora of examples on this board to back up everything I had said. The nice thing about Liberals is they are their own worst enemy. I rarely have to dig far to find proof to back up my beliefs on Liberals. Now if this was not a drive by, and I am sure that it was, why not contribute to the topics presented and lets see where it goes. Knowing in advance you will be held accountable for your claims I am sure will compel you not to participate as 99% of the posters here chose to do. Who would have thought all you had to do to silence a Liberal was to make them accountable for that which they claim to be the facts or truth.

    Sadly people like JEAN can never change. Hit and run, sniping, personal attacks, passivise aggressive to the max. A pathetic excuse for a human being. JEAN, you are a coward plain and simple. Fortunately you have made a fool of yourself often enough that your impact is minimal. Should you find a shred of decency within yourself, you really do owe our people in the military an apology from your previous post.

  479. Noah:

    Let me give you a clue. Many people who read this blog classify themselves as liberals but I suspect that very few can identify themselves in your whiney and cartoonish interpretation of liberals that are standards in your presentation. Just repeating them over and over again won’t make them so. And when someone like Anonymous tries to engage you, your brush off is predictably repulsive and not helpful. You need not look beyond your own insolence to understand why no one wants to engage you.

  480. To Whom it May concern….
    O thou grim, mischief-making chiel,
    That gars the notes o’ discord squeel,
    Till daft mankind aft dance a reel
    In gore, a shoe-thick,
    Gie a’ the faes o’ Scotland’s weal
    A townmond’s toothache!

  481. Jean Googles -er, channels Bobby Burns: “Wouldst some Power the giftie gie us, to see oursels as ithers see us!”

    And notes:

    “Only a couple of typical lonely nobodies are chained to their computers 24/7 to talk to each other and whine; somehow thinking that, by attaching themselves to the popular blog of two delightful old ladies, it will make them somebodies. Sort of like hamsters in their respective cages running faster and faster, all day everyday but getting nowhere. Fortunately, all the rest of us have to do is scroll on by and chuckle at the frantic pace of mutual backslapping from their vantage point of provincial tunnel vision with nothing of value or interest to contribute.”

    It’s good to see someone with a little personal insight. Congratulations. I didn’t think you understood how you are viewed here. I hope this means we can look forward to some on-topic, concise and positive posts from you. Especially concise.

    And to think – all through the auspices of my dead countryman – Bobby Burns. Makes me prood!

    Here’s a nice one by Bob. Don’ let it go to your ‘ead. He also wrote a more bawdy version I can share with the group if you like.

    F a’ the airts the wind can blaw,
    I dearly like the west,
    For there the bonnie lassie lives,
    The lassie I lo’e best:
    There wild woods grow, and rivers row,
    And monie a hill between;
    But day and night may fancy’s flight
    Is ever wi’ my Jean.

    I see her in the dewy flowers,
    I see her sweet and fair:
    I hear her in the tunefu’ birds,
    I hear her charm the air:
    There’s not a bonnie flower that springs
    By fountain, shaw, or green;
    There’s not a bonnie bird that sings,
    But minds me o’ my Jean.

    Cordially,
    PFesser

  482. Hi Congenial Gang,

    It’s summer! Well, not technically but for all practical purposes. We know that there are many of you out there who check in regularly hoping for a new post from Helen. She is probably just busy with family and other projects like most of the rest of us. In case you aren’t interested in wading knee deep through the muck of drivel to find out what many of Helen’s loyal fans have been up to, here’s a little update on some of them.

    Let’s see, for openers; high school and college graduations; a National Honors Society recipient, a really, really important wedding anniversary; an upcoming wedding; vacations to destinations all over from Maine to Las Vegas; several serious illnesses in family members; summer activities of kids and grandkid to keep up with; moving plans; businesses, jobs, and professions commanding time and attention; staying abreast of events going on locally and in their states, the country and world; and lots of everyday livin’ to do!

    Only a couple of typical lonely nobodies are chained to their computers 24/7 to talk to each other and whine; somehow thinking that, by attaching themselves to the popular blog of two delightful old ladies, it will make them somebodies. Sort of like hamsters in their respective cages running faster and faster, all day everyday but getting nowhere. Fortunately, all the rest of us have to do is scroll on by and chuckle at the frantic pace of mutual backslapping from their vantage point of provincial tunnel vision with nothing of value or interest to contribute.

    I am reminded of the Scottish Robert Burns’ poem, “To A Louse”. One of the lines is:

    “Wouldst some Power the giftie gie us, to see oursels as ithers see us!”

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam.

    Auntie Jean

  483. It is just pettiness inherent to the Liberal way. delurkergurl is famous for chiming in when a cheap shot has a potential of being landed. Sadly nothing that required more than a synapse or two to be fired. I think it is finally sinking in with me that even these jokers don’t believe the shyt they are shoveling. No one except one of the incarnations of Anonymous has had the fortitude or integrity to stand by their own BS and try and defend it. The rest of the dullards just spout talking points and are completely incapable of Independent thought.

  484. You can ask our cunning linguist Jean for help if you get stuck. You shouldn’t need it though.

  485. “Haven’t seen the answer to the question – lose what?”

    Ah, what the hell, I’m in a festive mood…
    OK – I’m not going to do your homework for you, but I will give you a hint: let’s use the infinitive, “to lose” to make it easy.

    Is that always a transitive verb?

    Your turn. Wanna play, little girl? If you do, I’m your huckleberry…

  486. “And so your opinion on our Governor PERRY??”

    No info on him – he’s new to me. Thoughts?

    “Haven’t seen the answer to the question – lose what?

    If you have to ask, the answer doesn’t matter.

  487. Craig, James – Godspeed!

    Haven’t seen the answer to the question – lose what?

  488. And so your opinion on our Governor PERRY??

  489. Craig –

    Sounds like tough times in the Mr. and Mrs. Craig household. Sheesh! I predict locusts next.

    Glad to hear from you. I sure know about the illness funk, and my little episode was playtime to what Val is going through. I always wondered as a kid why old people were such sourpusses; now I know: they understand how grim life really is. Thank god for those childhood and young adulthood years of complete ignorance.

    re: 2012. I like Romney OK; I don’t think he really believes in magic underwear, and he’s shown that he knows how to balance a checkbook, so that’s pretty good. I think Bachmann is a little too far right for me (about 20 clicks). Don’t know a thing about Pawlenty. Klondike Kardashian is only interested in stuffing thousand dollar bills in her bra, so I don’t think she’s much of a contender (whew!). The Right Reverend Huckleberry ain’t running. Newt has IMHO shown himself devoid of any moral substance whatsoever, in my opinion. Others may disagree.

    Pickin’s are pretty thin in the GOP all right. I wish they could get Christie Todd Whitman back in the game or steal Elizabeth Warren and run her. She is so impressive that I don’t think Bo would get 20%, but alas, she is busy.

  490. Trying to find the best way to articulate this point. I find it interesting, that all of these so called “loyal” Liberals, when it comes down to brass tacks, cannot stand their ground and defend what it is they and this profess to be true. Of course they will give a myriad of reasons like they are too good to talk with non Liberals, they had to wash their hair and had not the time to respond. But it has been shown over and over that when they are shown how wrong they are with irrefutable proof, or logical argument, they disappear until the subject is dropped. They have the time to attack us, they chatter all day long when it appears there is no one to oppose their rants, but as soon as someone steps up and holds them accountable, this board goes quiet. Cowardly in my humble opinion, and a poor tribute to our hosts. The term fair weather friends comes to mind.

  491. Howdy all
    Just recovering from broken left arm..when I fell again and broke left metatarsal.

    WE lost our dog Matey ten days ago and are awaiting autopsy.

    Val is in a funk….since in last ten days she has begun loosing her hair. Her stamina is also going down..maybe partially to the heat of 100 plus days.

    Like the crowd of PUB candidates for POTUS but partial to Bachmann and Romney.

    That is all.

  492. Of all the things you could have responded to you chose that Anonymous? Really? And something with such an obvious answer. Maybe the bar has been raised a little to high here.

  493. “Then you lose.”

    Lose what?

  494. “but I do think you are just going to keep posting until we all go away.”

    You shouldn’t do that. Then you lose.

    “I’d much rather read Helen. She is not only correct in her posts…”

    Whoever the writer is, he/she is certainly bright, no getting around that. But always “correct?” Only if you are so naive that you actually believe an argument has only one side.

    “but she is a far wittier writer”

    Possibly true but irrelevant, since “she” – whoever that is – only posts about once every month at the most, up to as much as every three or more. 95% of the “action” on the blog comes from commenters. It reminds me of what my roomie said about god: if He exists or doesn’t, it doesn’t matter. He doesn’t get involved in human affairs.

  495. Nice personal opinion piece, thanks Shash.

  496. Noah, I don’t think you do a good job of debunking myths, but I do think you are just going to keep posting until we all go away. I’d much rather read Helen. She is not only correct in her posts but she is a far wittier writer. And that’s what I stop by to read.

  497. I find it interesting when I debunk their arguments they scatter to the 4 winds and have nothing else to say. Where is the integrity?

  498. Anybody seen JuneauJoe?

    C’mon now, don’t run away just ‘cus I out-perved you at your own game! It was really fun seeing you and Noah discuss the fine points…

    I’m your huckleberry…

  499. Noah –

    Stop it. Stop it right now. Of all the nerve – using logic!

    What is that old quote about debt? “That which is good policy for a family can scarce be bad for a nation?” something like that…

  500. Do these people think that if they buy milk half price on sale this week, it should remain on sale forever? When the regular retail price is restored after the sale is over, do they rage about milk prices doubling? Do they understand that the retailer lost revenue on that milk so there was a cost to running that sale?

    I like this example. You see Anonymous , that milk, it belongs to the store. They chose to put it on sale. They chose how long to run their sale. They didn’t have someone come in and decide for them they were going to sell the milk at a lower price.

    Do they understand that if they sold the goods at a loss forever, the business would fall into debt?

    You say going into debt like it is a bad thing? Wait, it is a bad thing? So if it is bad for this company to put itself into debt, why is it ok for us to introduce spending of over a trillion dollars that we have not paid for, for services we are getting today? Or do we live by one set of rules, and our government another set?

  501. Anonymous, no need to explain yourself. I clearly understand the Liberal mindset on this. Everything we have belongs to our benevolent government, and we should be thankful for anything that decide to give back to us. After all, we can’t live without them in our lives and we need them to spend our money for us because they know what we need better than we do, and we know they can run their fiscal house better than we can, right?

  502. Some specific people got a temporary tax break for a pre-defined period of time. When that time was up, they threw a tantrum about “tax increases” and got their way. They’ll do it again when this temporary tax cut expires.

    Do these people think that if they buy milk half price on sale this week, it should remain on sale forever? When the regular retail price is restored after the sale is over, do they rage about milk prices doubling? Do they understand that the retailer lost revenue on that milk so there was a cost to running that sale? Do they understand that if they sold the goods at a loss forever, the business would fall into debt?

  503. PFesser-
    LOL- if you ask my Aleut side of the family, they would say they were always here but it’s likely it’s only 9000 years :-)
    Folks met at teachers college in the west. Dad was Navy in WWII and didn’t return to ancestral home area afterwards. Ma was determined to go to college from the time she was quite young and ran right up and over family , educators, et al in her tiny Alaskan hometown to do that.

    Yes, the whole village thing here is really tough- on so many fronts that it is difficult to pull threads out to try to sort out what may or may not help or hinder…

  504. UAW-
    “While nonresident troops aren’t counted for state legislative districts, they’re federally required to be included in congressional districts.

    Historically in Hawaii, they’ve been omitted because of concerns that their large numbers would negate representation from full-time residents who can vote.”

    It doesn’t appear they are violating federal law in terms of representation of /for Hawaii in Congress, rather that they have traditionally ignored them as non-residents in counts for apportioning state representation.
    Jean has every right to be concerned about increased Republican representation in her state business but that is a different thing than what struck me.
    Here in Alaska we changed from a Legislature run redistricting Board to an appointed board and adjusted for for military non-residents.

    p128,

    http://www.akredistricting.org/Files/citizens_guide.pdf

    This section assigns authority for redistricting to a redistricting board, and it directs the board to use federal census figures for its work. Federal law generally prohibits states from using any other population data, such as the results of a state census or the number of registered voters. Prior to 1990 it was the practice in Alaska to adjust the federal census figure by removing the estimated number of non-resident military personnel in the state. The original constitutional provisions specified that redistricting was to be based on the “civilian” population. No such adjustment to the population base was made for the purposes of redistricting after the 1990 or 2000 census. The language of this section may now prevent any such adjustment.

    what this has done here is add to the problems of representation of rural Alaska (which is most of the state), post Baker v Carr, by creating districts in which large numbers of of non-resident military folks are counted for apportionment -we have lost seats all over the state or ended up with districts larger than many states down south simply because of numbers of stationed military folks -who can’t vote in local /state elections anyway.
    the Dem/Rep thing doesn’t mean a whole lot here , at least in the way it does so many other places. What does matter is that representation in state and local affairs has changed dramatically because of this.

  505. uawtradesman I like that thanks

  506. alaskapi –

    Interesting about your family. How did your ancestors end up in alaska?

    I have a friend, an Alaska blogger, who has educated me about the “villages.” It sounds like some of those folks really have a tough go of it.

  507. Noah……
    THE IRS=THEIRS

  508. Alaskapi
    I went back to read Jean’s post and it seems that her big problem is that a Republican might get elected…….I wanted to know how that is different that counting all the illegals in California (and how many want to give them the vote) Isn’t California getting an extra seat because of the population increase and the chance of it being conservative is ?
    After reading your link WHY is Hawaii (and Kansas)allowed to violate federal law?

  509. PFesser…
    It says”I voted Rebublican,The Democrats left a bad taste in my mouth”

  510. Yeah. It does.

  511. paying for the expense of continuing to renew the intentionally-temporary tax cuts for the upper class.

    Again, All your money belongs to the Liberal government. anything you are “allowed” to keep has to be paid and accounted for. I belong to the school of thought that if I earn it it is my money. Guess that makes me a greed jjerk.

  512. I heard what you meant, Alaskapi, and valued your comment.

    Did you hear that the massive GOP Cuts To Food Aid For Seniors And Food Banks Equals One Day Of Bush Tax Cuts For Millionaires? At this rate we could sacrifice everyone and everything and still come up short paying for the expense of continuing to renew the intentionally-temporary tax cuts for the upper class.

  513. UAW- did you go read the article I referenced?
    I asked if folks thought I was reading it correctly?
    “Even though nonresidents can’t vote, their inclusion likely would have significant implications for state politics in Hawaii. ”
    “If out-of-state military are counted, Republicans could benefit conservative-leaning districts surrounding bases may be split, leading to voters in the area choosing two representatives instead of one. ‘
    Whether it is nonresident military in Hawaii or whatever is going on in CA the gain for being able to count the folks seems to be for the residents in those districts who CAN vote-no one else.
    Not the non resident, not other districts.
    I don’t get your remark about not-ok-for-you-but-ok-for-us. I’m not making a lib v cons argument here.
    Who’s you and us?
    ————–
    PFesser- I am not forgetting the poor . I assume they all fit in one of the designations -left, right, in between or beyond.
    “ALL of us, liberal, conservative, and all points between or beyond share in culpability and responsibilty in questions surrounding poverty.”
    My father’s people are Kentucky dirt farmer stock and many are as poor as you can get.
    My mother’s people are Aleut and many are struggling as hard as anyone does .
    My father is an old fashioned conservative, some of his relatives are tea partiers, some flaming liberals. Same on the other side-except it is ma who is the flaming liberal and it cuts across economic lines.The poor are not a monolithic homogeneous group-politicallyor any other way.
    I know plenty of poor folks, including my folks, who have done quite well, plenty who have foundered. It seems to have more to do with temperament, opportunity or the lack of it, and individual response to terms of perception of opportunity as to how folks do.There’s a wonderful lil book called Aleuts in Transition that looks at adaptive behaviors in 2 seperate circumstances. Kinda of hard to find but still out there.

    I see a couple typos here but new WP comment window function is driving me bats so I’ll just apologize and leave em.
    So- I’m including anyone and everyone. The issues surrounding poverty in this country are human issues.

  514. I think this short video makes a very excellent point in Palin and Obama.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/have-the-media-treated-palin-and-obama-equally/

  515. So much for a transparent government.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jun/13/obama-administration-cut-access-federal-websites/#.TfZwPtdyH8Y;facebook

  516. Don’t think I like where this is going either.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/13/fbis-new-rules-to-give-agents-more-leeway-on-surveillance/?test=latestnews

  517. Don’t think I like where this is going.

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=310877

  518. UAW tradesman –

    I like your avatar, but I can’t read the text. What does it say?

    For the record, I always thought Monica was hot and the ol’ Horndog had good taste.

  519. Alaskapi
    are you also saying that the illegal immigrants should not be counted and used for redistricting……like in California…….or is this the ol’ double standard again (It’s OK for us to do it but not you)

    John Handcock
    or is it John cock-in hand…..let up on the grip……….your shutting off the blood to your brain……

  520. This is a great video. I think it highlights the faults with affirmative action. I think for a period of time affirmative action had a place and it was necessary to interject people into places where they might not have been able to get to on their own to introduce to ignorant people that we are all indeed equal and that race should not play a role in determining if someone should be chosen for a job, and it has done that. Now we need to get back to performance based hiring for everything.

    We hurt ourselves by using race as a reason to hire someone. By choosing less qualified people we are less profitable and less productive. Logically it makes little sense as well. If it is wrong to not pick someone due to race it should be equally wrong to pick them because of their race. It was a necessary evil at the time, but I believe it is an idea that needs to be put to laid to rest.

  521. Video on the possible application of affirmative action to college basketball.

    hmmm……

    HT to 800lbgorilla@rutherford’s blog.

  522. “ALL of us, liberal, conservative, and all points between or beyond share in culpability and responsibilty in questions surrounding poverty.”

    alaskapi – I would gently suggest that perhaps you have left out one very important group – the impoverished themselves. Of course that leaves one open to the charge of “blaming the victim” but also it might be interpreted as “taking on at least some responsibility for one’s own situation.”

    I personally know several – no I would say many – people from the heads of the hollers in WV who have done well for themselves, having come from very poor families. How can their prosperity be attributed to personal responsibility and ambition but then said (or implied) that poverty has NO relationship to lack of same – it is the fault of “all of us” – to use your phraseology?

  523. “TTTTHAT’S ALL FOLKS!!” Good bye for now..

  524. What Hawaii is looking at IS actually somewhat peculiar.
    It appears the service members would still be excluded from voting as residents but that districts they reside in would be allowed to count them as residents for numbers used to add or subtract representatives based on census numbers. Am I reading this correctly that an area could gain (or lose ) a rep based on large numbers of residents who cannot vote? If so, what do the non-residents gain excepting that their allowed-to-vote neighbors get more reps?

    http://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/sections/news/local-news/troops-could-cross-state-lines.html

    ————-
    ALL of us, liberal, conservative, and all points between or beyond share in culpability and responsibilty in questions surrounding poverty.

  525. I agree with Noah about Jean’s comments. As a service man who voted only once per election, I would have been in trouble had I voted twice or neglected to pay my state taxes. “…Young and vulnerable people…” is an insult to our troops.

    John Handcock did give us good satire. Maybe Jean was indulging in her own brand of satire and wasn’t really insulting anyone.. “Modest Proposal!” I like that.

    Noah, liberalism, political correctness or whatever you choose to call it is a problem. I agree with you, but I think something worse outside of the schools is at fault too.

  526. John Handcock . . . hysterically good satire! Kind of like the 21st century’s version of Jonathan Swift’s A Modest Proposal!

  527. What’s worse, the Carl Rove types must be rubbing their hands together in glee at the prospects of dual voter registration in different states. It is not a stretch to see how some young and vulnerable people could be persuaded, “Yeah, sure, you can vote here and vote absentee in your home state too!”

    Seriously Jean wake the hell up. We are a nation of laws. It is against the law to vote twice, be you a Liberal, a Conservative, or a fear monger like yourself. To insinuate the Republicans would purposefully break the law and rig an election I thought was beneath even someone as morally disturbed as yourself. You my dear are a true piece of shyt.

    James. The problem with our education system like many other things is the disease called Liberalism. The same Liberalism that wants to remove God from the pledge. The same Liberalism that wants scoreless sports so our poor fragile children don’t get hurt feelings if they lose a game, never mind that it builds character. Liberals need our kids to be scared of everything so they can be dependent on them to take care of their every need and to keep voting them into power. Like a crack dealer on the street, Liberals use fear, hate, welfare, socialized healthcare and the like to keep themselves as their invaluable savior. Get them dependent on us for all their needs and they will never get rid of us. Give me 10 Hitlers in uniform any day, at least then my enemy has the balls to show himself for who and what he is. Liberals walk and live among us, dressed in plain cloths promising you the world while selling your future down the river, a terrorist by any other name.

    We need to take back our schools from these villains, get back to a common sense approach and screw this political correctness, and do whats best for our kids.

  528. Noah, I would do the same as you and have done with our farm business. Besides spending more money to hire a better quality of teacher, I would reduce the amount of paper work which administrators impose on them. I would fund research to learn why a few students don’t follow the normal pattern. If their stories are similar teachers would be able to help such students more numerous.

    I regard our education problem as I do the war on drugs. Until the culture changes, the condition will remain.

    Thomas Friedman described how Chinese and Indian youth treat Bill Gates like a rock star and how eager they are to learn. What do they have that we don’t?

  529. Hi Congenial Gang,

    Listen up folks! This is important for 2012. Let’s put aside our preoccupation with the antics of Sarah Palin and Anthony Weiner for the moment. Sistah lori, Sistah alaskapi, Sistah Elsie and others interested, I hope you will get on this issue if it’s applicable in your states. Our local newspaper, Sunday, June12 “The Garden Island” has a front-page article written by Mark Niesse, Associated Press, entitled, “Troops could skew Hawai’i political lines”.

    It has to do with revisiting the results of the last census and reapportionment. I’m sure all of you know that by Constitutional mandates, voting districts are based on representation of population for both State and National legislative bodies. The every 10-year census is a head count, not of voter registration or eligibility. The census counts non-residents such as the military and their families and students whose permanent homes are elsewhere.

    Only Kansas and Hawaii exclude non-residents when shaping districts. Now the Hawaii Reapportionment Commission is considering including them. It doesn’t take a lot of imagination to see what this could mean, especially concerning the military, which is largely conservative in its thinking. That demographic generally votes a straight Republican ticket. There could be plenty of gerrymandering going on without the public taking notice of it.
    What’s worse, the Carl Rove types must be rubbing their hands together in glee at the prospects of dual voter registration in different states. It is not a stretch to see how some young and vulnerable people could be persuaded, “Yeah, sure, you can vote here and vote absentee in your home state too!”

    The greatest concentration of military is of course on Oahu with Pearl Harbor and numerous army and marine bases scattered all over the island. There are large numbers of military families in surrounding areas. A little gerrymandering here, a little gerrymandering there, and both the State Senate and House as well as the U. S. House of Representatives could easily tip conservative in 2012.

    This does not really reflect the total population of our island State however. The Big Island, proportionally, has the largest increase in population according to the census, with very little military representation. Why the Big Island has had such an increase mystifies me. Much of it is flat, barren land covered with black lava rock with very little vegetation. Nary a bird nor insect to be seen for miles. The air quality is poor and unhealthy. The active volcano has been erupting there for over 20 years. It spews out “vog” a combination of ash and gasses, one of which, sulphur dioxide, is a deadly toxin in high concentrations. When the prevailing trade winds die down, the whole island can be blanketed with “vog” and it occasionally drifts up the entire Hawaiian chain as it is being dissipated. Even in small amounts, you can feel it burning your eyes and mucous membranes, 500 miles NW on our island.

    Anyway, you can read more details on the reapportionment thingy by pulling up the Garden Island newspaper article. Please check it out in your home states too.

    Aloha! :-)Namaste. Shalom. Saalam.
    Auntie Jean

  530. John Handcock, sounds like that was penned by an angry black Liberal Muslim,

    James, I guess I take a upper management point of view to fixing the “how” part of our education system. When I want to make a change in my business, I have a very good idea of what I want my end results to be. But when it comes to what and how to implement change, I go to the person who does said job and ask them what they think. In the case of education I again would give them a 50% pay raise, attract a better quality of teacher, then set to them the task of finding a better way to run things. As 75% of their pay is dependent upon performance I would consider them to be sufficiently motivated to get the job done in a timely manner.

  531. Stonekettle.com has offered to post on the Internet (I prefer a quill pen) my new Consititution for the GOP/Conservatives who, I understand, wish to create a Liberal Free Zone country somewhere in what is presently known as United States of America.

    If The Constitution Was Written Today

    The Preamble:

    We the PATRIOTIC naturally born CHRISTIAN conservative ENGLISH speaking patriots of the awesomely exceptional GOD blessed United States of Awesome!!!! … in Order to form a bunch of states that have their own laws and do whatever the hell they want without regard to a central government (but in no way resemble that sissy European Union) … establish JUSTICE for people who look and think just like us … insure domestic Tranquility by deporting all the people we don’t like … provide for the common defense contractor, eliminate any and all social programs, and secure the Blessings of JESUS and Wall Street unto ourselves and to hell with future generations, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of By GOD America!!!!

    Alternatively, instead of this preamble, Americans may misquote a bunch of random stuff from the Declaration of Independence. Amen.

    The Middle Part That Nobody Reads Anyway Except for Stupid Liberal Judges:

    The Government of the United States of AWESOME will be made up of three parts: The President, Jesus … and some other stuff.

    The President must be a born again white guy from TEXAS or OHIO who believes in JESUS!!! and can trace his ancestry back to the Mayflower … he should have some kind of law degree but not from one of those fancy elitist colleges full of stinky Liberals who hate America, he must be a man of the people whose family lives in some kind of “compound” and owns at least one major defense contractor or a bank, he must have started his own Fortune 500 hundred company, served in war, was an astronaut or fighter jock, was director of the CIA, a former governor, is an ordained Baptist minister, and can leap over tall buildings in a single bound, also he should be humble too. Also, he must believe in JESUS!!!!! Also he should have gray hair, but the distinguished kind of gray not that creepy old guy gray, and he should be tall but not freakishly so, he should always wear a little flag pin on his lapel and he should be able to JUGGLE or do a funny dance at BBQ’s. Also he should own a boat or a baseball team. Also, his wife should be HOT…

    Congress should work for free and PRAY a lot … Also they should call each voter (but not during dinner time) and ask how to vote on each bill! They should make laws and speeches and stuff that makes JOBS but no taxes or regulations. Also we should have like, roads and airports and big wall across Mexico and some stuff like that, and it shouldn’t cost us anything because it’s, like, PATRIOTIC.

    Judges should always pray to the Ten Commandments before making any ruling!!!!!!

    We should have a big honking military made up totally of Navy SEALS and MARINES and Stealth Bombers who blow up people we don’t like and go around saving the world … Also, Soldiers must either either die heroically or come home perfectly OK and go to work in a car factory so that they don’t cost us anything and we don’t have to listen to that crap about how we owe them VA benefits and shit! … Also, they should keep their
    uniforms and put them on and march in 4th of July Day Parades and be AWESOME, and then never mention their service for the rest of the year because that makes us feel guilty about how we spent all of Vietnam serving in the Young Republican 82nd Draft Deferment Brigade of Americans For Patriotism.

    Screw cholesterol!!!!!

    Also, we officially hate France, homosexuals … and Al Gore…

    That’s pretty much it. The states will take care of everything else because STATE governments are super awesome and always do exactly what we say in a totally AWESOME manner that we approve of….

    The Bill of Righteousness:

    1. Right: Guns, Jesus!!!!
    2. Wrong: Brown People, Red People, Yellow People, Poor People, Homeless People, Gay People, Female People, Foreign People, Handicapped People, Hungry People, Sick People, Liberal People, Moderate People, Progressive People, People Who Don’t Love Jesus, People Who Drive Too Slow In the Fast Lane, Tofu, and the French.

    Other Amendments:

    This Constitution is perfect and totally awesome and always will be for all generations, forever. Period. Don’t f*ck with it or you’ll make Jesus angry… you wouldn’t like him when he’s angry!!!

    Signed,

    John Hancock

  532. I just read your post, Poolman. My cousin said what you said. They are just things. This flood doesn’t compare to her husband and son’s dying. You’re right. This was one of the last things on our minds. The last flood for us was in 1954, We don’t have flood insurance because we have never needed it.

    Your “supernatural” comment strikes a note. I don’t know that I believe all of that stuff, but strange things have happened around me over the years. When we lived in England, my wife and I watched a coffee cup tip itself over.

    The Corps of Engineers rep told me it will really get interesting here in four or five days. I reported .70 inch of rain to the weather service this morning, and the meteorologist told me not to wait too long. “We don’t want to send a helicopter after you.”

    My aunt gave me her collection of the first forty years of Life Magazine and also Saturday Evening Post. We have been moving them out of the basement. A 1952 Saturday Evening Post article was titled “Who Blundered in Iran?” Nothing has changed has it?

  533. I heard that too. It is funny, but I doubt if Margaret Thatcher actually said it. According to the Daily Telegraph, Lady Thatcher is often unable to remember where she is or that her husband died.

    Yes, the Brits do have a way with words, but Margaret has lost her way.

  534. This is a little off topic, but it gave me such a horselaugh this morning that I had to share it. From The Telegraph:

    re: Palin wants to meet Margaret Thatcher

    “When the Governor told reporters that she would like to meet the Prime Minister during her world tour next month, a Thatcher aide reportedly said, “Lady Thatcher will not be seeing Sarah Palin. That would be belittling for Margaret. Sarah Palin is nuts.”

    Ah, the Brits have such a way with words.

  535. I know I am citing exceptions to the rule, but the exceptions tell us something. Why do a few fight to improve their lots when most are overwhelmed?

    Our daughter is a therapist for mostly teenagers forced to see her as a condition of their probation or incarcaration status. They come from disfunctional families and several have been murder victims or killers. Our daughter’s office has called the police for security problems two or three times.

    Even with such conditions, a few exceptions fight their circumstances. Why? We need to know and learn if there is a pattern.

    What you wrote Noah and Alaskapi , supports my point that tampering with our educational structure will not change much until we do something about the realty and culture of poverty. John Edwards once said the United States is two nations, and though he is a cad, he is right. We have tried to fix the problem since before LBJ’s War on Poverty and nothing has worked. We need another approach.

  536. Noah-
    Yes, it is a very real problem.
    ——————————–
    QUICK FACTS REGARDING KIDS LIVING IN POVERTY & HUNGER

    Children who grow up in families below 185% of the federal poverty level and who live in hungry and/or food insecure homes suffer from two to four times as many health problems as their counterparts who do not experience hunger.

    Malnutrition-related ailments afflicting these children included unwanted weight loss, fatigue,
    headaches, irritability, inability to concentrate, and frequent colds.
    Children between the ages of 5 and 7, living in food insecure households have nearly 3-4
    times the odds of stunted growth.

    http://www.foodbankofscm.org/ProgramsAndServices/FoodPrograms.aspx

    ——————————–

  537. I like north should read I live north

  538. James I see it everyday in the inner-city. Poverty has a major impact. The examples you are sighting are the exception to the rule, not the norm. The kids in these situation are spending so much of their time just trying to survive, make money, and find a second meal for the day that school is lucky to hit their top 5 in their priority list. I like north of one of the most prosperous cities in Michigan. Without a doubt this city has done better through these economic times than almost any other city in our state. Despite that, one of the churches I work with, works with the school to identify kids who are not getting enough to eat. This one church makes upwords of 250 brown bag dinners everyday. This puts these kids at a significant disadvantage.

  539. Jsri, I agree, poverty makes it tough for a teacher to motivate students, but it can be done. A teacher will only be the spark to convince a student to motivate him/herself.

    Our son’s class survived the loss of homes, parental deaths, and sudden poverty during the farm depression. They decided as a class that education was their way out and all would make it or none would. They invented their own No Child Left Behind program and looked after each other. They became the most successful class in twenty years.

    A few years ago, ABC reported on a homeless girl who put herself through high school and earned a scholarship to an ivy league university.

    My wife has also carried food and snacks for students who are hungry. She rummages through dumpsters at the end of school in search of discarded jackets, etc. Then, she repairs and cleans them for high school students who can’t afford a coat. She has also carried tension balls to pass out to stressed out students. If they are so inclined, they can throw them against the wall after class.

    Yes, it is difficult to motivate students, poor or rich, but not impossible. Your wife probably has many success stories of lives she helped change.

  540. I minimized the page, so I don’t know what if anything has been written today. A flock of Canadian geese seems to have moved into one of our bean fields. Frogs are happy too.

    The Drudge Report has a link to Yahoo! News, “Midwesterners brace for new Missouri River flooding.” No one probably cares enough to check, but it is rare that the dateline is from a town near our home. My wife gets her hair done in Blair, Ne.

  541. James:

    Sorry James. But poverty does have an effect. It is pretty tough for any teacher to motivate a kid in school who may be suffering hunger pains. My wife used to carry peanut bars or something similar in her pockets that she doled out when needed. They were a regular item on our weekly shopping lists.

  542. Hi Congenial Gang,

    This is a proud grandma speaking. Our grandson in CA is 16, (17 in Dec.) and just finished his sophomore year in high school. We just found out he was inducted into the National Honor Society’s as a result of the National Association of Secondary School Principles. It is based on “Scholarship, Service, Leadership and Character”. (They just told us on the phone so I may have garbled what it is officially all about, but we think it is HUGE!)

    He is 6’ 2” with a beautiful baritone voice. Last year he was the “Cowardly Lion” in the school’s musical production of “The Wiz”. We saw the DVD. Outstanding! In person, he is rather reticent but up on stage singing and acting, he is a terrible ham! This year a couple of weeks ago he was Schroder in their musical production of “You’re a Good Man, Charlie Brown”. We await this DVD!

    We are bustin’ with pride! He’s a fun kid.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam.

    Auntie Jean

  543. Thanks everyone for your encouragement. Much of our farm land is now under water, and the lake west of our house is expanding thanks to the rising water table. 160 acres near our home remain dry. Wouldn’t it be ironic if the lake which which we dug to revive a spring did us in?

    I already described how the valley society is devolving as large pieces of it depopulate. Several areas have no electricity or mail delivery, and yet we hear a few hold outs remain in those places.

    The interstate and county highway ten miles north of us will soon go under, though the DOT is trying to keep the interstate open with boards and sand bags. My wife and I will drive up to buy some things while we still can.

    We are still sorting and moving things.

    The Corps of Engineers tell us that were it not for the levies and flood control projects of the past half century, the flood would already reach from hill to hill, and that would be 20 miles in wide parts of the valley.

    I thought it was odd that though the rate of increased water flow is stable until Thursday when it will reach the current projected maximum rate, the water has been spreading horizontally more rapidly. I imagine the main river to be a mound that gravity will smooth and flatten with time. The maximum rate will probably last a month or two.

    A history professor told us about the Perene Thesis, which holds that the western Roman Empire did not succumb to barbarians in one fell swoop. Enclaves of the old civilization survived for generations. I see that happening here. Life goes on in dryer places, though the preocupation with sump pumps and sand bags competes with road maps. The town which will soon be cut off from us seems normal enough, but it is shrinking into itself as its trade area steadily grows smaller. I am curious to see what will happen if this continues through January as the corps projections say,

    Omaha hosts the College World Series next week, and officials are worried about the impact of a couple of heavy thunderstorms. The water will have no where to go. They are installing many pumps. If a big storm hits us, we will have to leave quickly.

    My wife wants to leave now. I want to wait.

    I don’t care what anyone believes about religion as long as it doesn’t affect me. Humans have created their own gods, because religion is built into us. Worshiping God has survival value. I believe in God, but I can’t imagine what it is.

    It doesn’t matter if the school has ten students or thousands. Wealth and poverty matter less than motivation. It is a teacher’s job to convince students they either need the information to benefit themselves, or lessons are intrinsically interesting. For example schools used Billy Joel’s “We didn’t Start the Fire ” as an instructional aid. A video of Dandy Warhols “Sleep 2000-Thirteen Tales From urban bohemia” posted by rayoflightcanada provides a good three minute history of the Middle East from the Balifor Declaration to Obama’s first conference in the region. Music can help memory and comprehension.

  544. Helen: I am so sorry for your loss. Your posts have been such a pleasure for me and I was really starting to worry when we hadn’t heard from you. Be well and thanks for speaking the truth!
    Amy

  545. Hi Congenial Gang,

    Sistahs Raji, alaskapi, mageen and bruddah Poolman, I think we are on the same page about many aspects of religion/spirituality and education. It really boils down to semantics. If anyone were to ask me what my religious preference is at this stage of my life, I would say I am a Casuist. I simply do not know.

    I feel that Decarte and Blondell are to philosophy what Newton and Einstein are to science. If you are interested in a hugely esoteric book on said subject, try “Maurice Blondell, A Philosopher’s Life” by Oliva Blanchette. I warn you, it is extremely heavy reading but worthwhile in the long run. I’ve been plowing my way through it, digesting a few pages at a time for six months. He dissects the differences between the “supernatural” or more formally, “metaphysics” (with its negative connotations of magic and superstition) and “catholic spirituality” (with a lower case “c” in the Greek sense of the word meaning “universal”).

    On a personal note, most of my adult life, I have participated in various organizations ranging from Community Concert Associations to the League of Women Voters. Once I was involved in a face-to-face discussion regarding elementary school curricula and teacher qualification. It was generally agreed that certification is important although a string of degrees behind any teacher’s name does not automatically confer teaching competence. If a teacher has the ability to grab and sustain the classes’ attention on the subject matter, then discipline usually is not a major problem with the exception of an occasional chronically disruptive student.

    In that discussion was the principal of a private religious school, in a position of authority to set the tone for the entire school, students and teachers alike. The principal often became upset and even quite angry when some questions were raised and at one point blurted out, “Well, it really doesn’t matter whether the students can read or write as long as their souls are saved!”

    That was a conversation stopper if there ever was one.

    This is a story my mom used to love to tell on me, early on to embarrass me, but now I appreciate the humor of it. We had a huge family bible about the size of Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary with full-page color picture illustrations. One time as a pre-schooler I had some little friends over and was entertaining them by showing them the pictures. I said, in all seriousness, (a cherub), “This is the Baby Jesus doing a tap dance”, then, turning the page, (the Galilee Sea), “This one is the Nederland Lake.”

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam.

    Auntie Jean

  546. Mageen –

    You are the kind of teacher I remember so fondly from my grade school days. They never made much money, but they had control over their environments. They spent their days teaching, not filling out “lesson plans.” They did not have to spend every minute wondering if they were fulfilling “Title _____ (fill in the blank) requirements. They carried themselves with dignity and spoke grammatically. They were well-respected because they deserved it. The very few of them left are completely demoralized trying to teach in this current climate. I feel truly sorry for them; they know exactly what the children need but they are not allowed to do it.

    My cousin Edna was legendary; she just died last fall at 96, and her funeral procession was a mile long. I can name at least ten kids my age who she called back into the “cloak room” while other children did their lessons at their desks, only to come out with a new pair of shoes – purchased on Edna’s meagre salary.

    She tried substitute teaching after she retired. She gave it up. “Jim,” she said, “I can’t teach now. I *touch* my kids, and you can’t do that these days. When they are good I hug ‘em and when they are bad I whip ‘em.” Now you go to jail for doing either one. Honest to God I don’t know what’s going to become of these young’uns.”

    I don’t know if I mentioned it but we have a very active oncology service at my hospital. Let me know if I can be of any service to you or your husband.

  547. Mageen, I’m glad to hear your husband is doing a little better. I’ll always make it a priority to donate what I can for researching less toxic treatments for chemotherapy. I hope it is doing the job and that you guys get to enjoy more happy years together.

  548. Pfesser – read your June 9th contribution – doing some unscrambling here of schedules etc. so my opportunities to read everything is rather limited – I started out teaching school and i was rated very highly by various school “inspectors” and superintendents. Could not continue on as my parents were still housing me and buying my clothes due to the low pay. One example: I taught for a bit in a highly touted and respected school system that paid the teachers bupkis but they did not object inasmuch as they were all married to highly paid husbands in professions. It is actually humbling for me to know as the years passed that the majority of the students I taughte turned out quite fine ina ll respects. Over time I discovered that some of the best paid teachers were in upstate New York in the Rochester area where they could actually afford to buy their own home if they were a single woman. I also heard of an elementary school principal in Philly who turned her failed school around by addressing the myriad of needs of her impoverished student body. Not just free breakfast and lunch but donated washers and dryers to launder their clothes, availability of clean donated clothing, inspiring school maintenance to actually perform their jobs by getting down on her knees and scrubbing floors herself. Home visits were attempted with mixed results. A percentage of the parents were the result of bad schooling for generations (segregation and poverty which forced kids to leave school too young in order to find menial work). She’s a hero in my book! And incidentally, I reread your opening contribution to this blog. In my own history it wasn’t Black Jack Pershing. It was the British army in the middle east who threatened to bury uncooperative types in a fresh pigskin so they would never see paradise. I believe it actually worked for awhile.

    Once again thanks to you and some of the other folks on the front porch for your support while my husband fights his way through Stage IV cancer. He had a rough patch but is doing better now. Two more rounds of chemo to go, rounds that were not expected.

  549. Poo. First Amendment, not second.

  550. alaskapi –
    Agreed. I know and work with many deeply religious people every day and respect them tremendously – my wife and I are even sort of honorary members of a local Pentecostal church, and work together on charity projects every Christmas. Even though they are aware of my feelings, they are, that magic word: tolerant.

    Tex and I had a similar discussion on Rutherford’s blog. I rather like Jefferson’s approach – let me see if I can find it….here it is:

    “The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

    So, I don’t have any intention of forcing – or ESPECIALLY asking my government to force – anyone to believe – or not believe – in anything. But along the same vein, I have also adopted Hitchens’ and Dawkins’ habit of not pretending to show deference or respect to something I find silly – or in some cases, vile. That is MY right under the Second Amendment. Of course those who feel the other way have the perfect right to tell me to go to hell – which Tex has done. We are still cordial – I would even say friends – but we find each other’s positions unpalatable and say so. That’s exactly how our system is supposed to work.

  551. Raji –

    Instead of FURTHER dissembling, just say “It’s none of your business and I don’t want to discuss it.” It’s a lot more honest.

    Well, Pfesser, if that is the kind of language you prefer, then consider it said.

    Peace ;-)

  552. PFesser- I was quite aware you were not putting forth Descartes’ religious views but think context of the man’s work and thought are worth commenting on.
    My own rejection of religion for myself has not resulted in rejecting other people’s acceptance of religion because the person who granted me the freedom to question everything thoroughly which led to my ultimate rather than inevitable rejection of religion, my father, is a deeply religious person, a good and decent man. A man who taught math and science to generations of young people and inspired so many to go on to jobs and activities math and science based.
    He was comfortable in the beauty and rightness science brought to what he saw as the experience of the God-given world.
    I disagree with him about that but will respect his acceptance of my differences by respecting others in their differences with me.

  553. alaskapi –

    I wasn’t putting forth any discussion of Descartes’ religious beliefs, just that my grade school principal’s lecture on Descartes is what started me down the road to questioning everything, including my own beliefs – and that is what inevitably led me to reject religion.

  554. Raji –

    Instead of FURTHER dissembling, just say “It’s none of your business and I don’t want to discuss it.” It’s a lot more honest.

    Onward.

  555. oh crud- having a bit of a go with new WP commenting box

    Desacartes avowed a belief in God.

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/descartes-epistemology/#6.1

    But he also strongly agitated for an opening of inquiry into what was then off limits by cultural religious convention.
    Not so different than Plato’s Socrates’ defense in the Apologia in many ways but certainly more effective in convincing folks in his own time.

    http://eo.ucar.edu/rainbows/

    Consider Descartes’ description of the phenomena which result in a rainbow from 1637 with the generalized notion about not messing about in God’s territory of the time…

  556. PFesser-
    as an atheist (without God) I tend toward your views but poor old Descartes was a man of his time , engaged in scientific questioning, intent upon developing a rationale for inquiry which would not put him at odds with the church.
    I hunted around but did not find a long ago quip by a physicist who swept away a question about Descartes’ so-called epistemological mind-body split with something on the order of Descartes-was-engaged-in-a-turf-war-with-the-church-over-whether-he-could-inquire-in-matters-reserved-for-God.
    Desacartes avowed a belief in God.

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/descartes-epistemology/#6.1

  557. Pfesser

    Dissembling: creation or adoption of a false appearance so as to elicit a false impression on the part of somebody else

    Crawfishing: to go fishing for Crawdads (Southern term for crayfish)

    Raised in the South and never heard that crawfishing meant to dissemble.

    I do believe I did not answer WHY I think the “supernatural” exists just that I do! As to WHY, well Sir, I consider that information personal and by not revealing my experiences on a blog I do not consider myself dissembling. I apologize if I have given you reason to think I was creating a false appearance to elicit a false impression.

    I did state that I am not a believer in organized religion for the very reasons that you have related on June 11 @7:37 AM.

    I had a very interesting professor in college, Thomas Altizer, who rocked the South when he posed his startling question: “Is God Dead?” You might find his works interesting and his memoir, Living the Death of God. We have already discussed his work before on M&H. He was on the cover of Time magazine in 1966.

    I wasn’t aware we were playing ball. You used the term, supernatural. I used the term The Creator. It’s just semantics.

  558. Raji –

    I think you are crawfishing (a Southern term for dissembling) in your answer concerning why you think the supernatural exists, but I will go first if you promise to give a real answer.

    When I was in grade school our principal came in one day and talked about Descartes. He said that he had decided everything he had learned was suspect and not founded on any provable bases (he was talking about the Scientific Method, but of course that was not invented yet). So he set about developing his own tool set upon which he could depend – and of course his first problem was to decide if his own existence was real, hence cogito ergo sum. (as my racing buds say, cogito ergo zoom!)

    I was so impressed with Mr. B_______’s lecture that I decided to always be on guard for unclear thinking on my own part and that of others and vowed to support only truth, not positions. It is extremely liberating.

    As for religion, I was taught in the Presbyterian mode, which of course included the Christian bible. Having had Mr. B_____’s lecture and now well-prepared with a critical eye, it took only reading it one time to realize it was a work of fancy and political expediency – a book designed only to consolidate power and profit for the priests, based on humankind’s very natural fear of death. A quick sampling of other representative religions revealed that they were all cut of the same cloth, so I rejected them all. There may be the “one true god” somewhere, but I haven’t seen it.

    I have never looked back. Free of the prejudices, unclear thinking and silliness of superstition and dogma I have been a free man since I was nine. I don’t have to dissemble and thrash around to explain clear contradictions in my holy book or why my belief system has caused so many really good people to do such really bad things. Would I reject some kind of religion if there were a shred of evidence? Of course not. But there is none.

    The ball is in your court. Please don’t crawfish. It is not a trap; I really want to know your experience.

  559. Hi Congenial Gang,

    Oh my, we have gone round and round many times about religion here at M&H, but it seems to be a never-ending topic. Raji, I think you are correct when speaking of ‘organized religion’ as opposed to ‘spirituality’. Some would argue that it’s just semantics. I don’t think so. Possibly, spirituality is innate in that all societies separated by time and distance, have always, always come up with “Deities”. Carl Jung called the concepts, “Archetypes” such as the ‘Child’, ‘the ‘Hero’, the ‘Wise Old Man/Woman’, the ‘Devil or Satan’; and of course, of primary importance, ‘Immortality’.

    Organized religions are significant for the sake of cohesion in the community and the establishment of a stable society for the people to live in. Problems arise when one religion organizes to the extent where it declares itself to be the only one, and thus, superior to any other. Over time, these views become more cultural and economic than religious. Then it’s easy to settle into the mindset of the medieval geocentric worldview.

    With instant communication and rapid travel around the world, that mindset is changing or at least could be. However, even the “My Jesus is better than your Jesus!” is a set up for never ending conflicts.

    Now, if each of us, as individuals, is destined to be an itty-bitty duck in an itty-bitty puddle and stay there for life, fine. But it makes the adjustment so much more difficult if not impossible when children grow up and take the opportunities to go out into the wider world. It is a shock to find that their itty-bitty puddle is not the center of the universe! Some will not ever be able to make the transition.

    I keep hoping that education in general will advance to include a much more global perspective so that kids will feel at home anywhere on planet earth. Such attitudes begin right here in our own backyards, schools and playgrounds.

    Aloha! Namaste. Shalom. Saalam.

    Auntie Jean

    P. S. Just for the record, these are only a few of the both ancient and contemporary names given to deities other than Jesus. In alphabetical order: Aten/Aton, Buddha, Dieu, Dio, Dios, God, Got, Gott, Gud, Jupiter, Mithra, Odin, Ormuzd, Ra, Siva/Shiva, Vishnu, Yavah/Allah, Yahweh, YHWH, Zeus. Look ‘em up and learn! And then you can understand there are far more similarities than differences.

  560. Take care of yourself, James.

    It’s hard to leave your home and belongings, not knowing whether they will remain safe and secure. I’m certain it wasn’t a part of your plans for the year.

    These earthly treasures are not all they are hyped up to be, anyway. The comforts of home we take for granted are here today and gone tomorrow. Home is where the heart is. A cliche, I know, but one of truth. God bless and comfort your family and all the others suffering the same fate, I pray.

    As far as the supernatural is concerned…

    Once you experience it and begin to interact in that realm, there is no denying it. There has been a concerted effort in “modern” society to discount anything supernatural and pass it off as mere foolishness and superstition. Even among the church, whose sole reason for existence is the supernatural.

    It really is much like disarming the entire populace. If Hollywood is the only source of “otherworldly” realities, then it can easily be dismissed and explained. Afterall, we’ve “evolved” now. :cool:

  561. stay safe James

  562. Pfesser and Noah

    As my Mother said, certain topics of conversation should be avoided at the dinner table and religion was one of them. :-)

    My question to Wayne was whether or not a believer and a non-believer can have a discussion of merit without discord.

    Noah, the word religion has many definitions. I think you are using it with regard to organized religion. For me religion is a set of strongly held beliefs,values and attitudes that somebody lives by.

    Pfesser, let us just say I believe a “supernatural” world does exist. That’s my story, what’s yours :-)

    James, My heart goes out to you and your family and friends.

  563. I hope that didn’t all seem like a condescending response Pfeser. The why of it all is actually a topic I have been giving a great deal of thought to as of late.

  564. James-
    Go safe, go well.

  565. Raji – as a non-believer I have always had great difficulty in seeing how believers come to their faith. How is it that you view the supernatural world and have come to believe in its existence?

    I think in a lot of cases religion sprang as a way to explain the unexplained. I find for many people religion gives them a sense of community and belonging. Faith in what lies after gives them a sense of purpose and hope and a reason for being. Many find it brings them a sense of cohesion to their lives that they cannot find anywhere else.

  566. James –

    Even though I’m no believer, God bless you and your family. Best of luck to you, my friend.

  567. PFessor, its about two miles southwest . Water is a foot or two below the surface of the highway north of us. My wife is scared to death because unlike me, she has never been in a flood.

    No one here has been in something like this. Ft Randal Dam employees released about 140,000 cubic feet of water per second with a goal of 150,000 in a few days. Even so, the level of the lake rose .4 inch yesterday. I think they will have to send down more water than they say. I think KFAB has s photo of Logan Pass, Mont. I’ve been there. Another place I’ve been, the Snowy Mountains had 25 feet of snow on the highway last week.

    We have a dike around our farmstead. The drainage ditch which runs through our home farm will act as a dam to keep two to ten feet of water from our farm. A foot of so of water will be east of our house and we have a dike to stop it from entering our farmstead, I hope. The ditch is about 3/4 bank full. No one can tell us if the dikes will hold after two or three months of this high water. I’ve been walking the dike to establish a base line for the future.

    The power is off south of us and the lights may go off within a few days as close as six miles south of us.

    We have only one way out now, and the Corps and DOT tell us the bridges will be safe. We will be staying with our daughter and son in law in Omaha, but we will have to take a circuitious route through the hills to get there.

    Several people have offered to help us move some furniture to higher ground, and that will happen in a few days. We are packing and loading the cars. Our Festiva is already loaded with stuff, so we will drive it to high ground and leave it .

    A frog strangler dumped on us yesterday. Heavy rains may cause secondary flooding because there is no where for the water to go. I’m spending much of my time, besides loading stuff, in checking on how fast the water is rising, so we will know when to leave. If we go, we will be taking our winter coats. We will be packed by this evening and if the water looks more threatening , we will go, furniture or no furniture.

  568. James – just checked KFAB.

    Man. I surely wish there were something that could be done. Are you getting ready to move now? Where will you go? Will we hear from you once you move? I assume you are ready to move because the exit roads are submerging now. Where is the water relative to your farm?

  569. I hope anonymous stays.

    Dismantling the educational system will do little long term good. It would be akin to building new apartments for poor people. Unless they change their attitudes and values, they will recreate the slum a government rescued them from. Unless society changes its attitudes and values, little will change.

    “There’s a lot of water flowing under this bridge
    There’s a voice inside saying ‘get your feet wet.'”
    “Cause that’s that.
    I can scream, I can shout I can cry my eyes out
    but its not coming back. That’s that
    I can hope, I can pray, but its not coming back
    And that’s that.”

    Our time has run out. Check KFAB. com’s flood page, if you want.

  570. Raji – as a non-believer I have always had great difficulty in seeing how believers come to their faith. How is it that you view the supernatural world and have come to believe in its existence?

  571. So Wayne, are you saying that a person of faith, a believer, cannot have discussions of merit with a non-believer? If that is the case you have confirmed my dislike of organized religion and Evangelists. My faith is in The Creator who loves all creatures great and small.

  572. I was curious as to how a lively debate on various subjects erupted into a religious battle between two posters. So I took the liberty of reviewing each post between ANONYMOUS and WAYNE and pulled all comments that related to religion. I apologize if any pertinent comment was omitted and I apologize to each of you should you think I am out of line in compiling the following comments but I can at least now see the religious thread within the discussion that spiraled out of hand all due to the use of the word MAGIC. My Mother always said to avoid certain topics at the dinner table and religion was one of them and apparently she was right!

    ANONYMOUS June 7:Churches should be required to meet the same non-profit status as other secular non-profits in order to get the tax breaks. If they do not meet the same standards they do not get the same benefits, even if they do believe in magic.

    WAYNE June 8: I think what you progressives, especially you irreligious progressives (magic), fail to admit is that for all practical purposes, you ran parents like me off with your hostility to our basic tenets and desires. We’ve been laughed at and treated as buffoons, our faith dismissed, our intelligence questioned, our methods mocked

    ANONYMOUS June 8: Don’t use the persecuted christian majority argument, the nation is very christian dominated in the population and the government. Really.

    However I do not think that religious training belongs in the public schools.

    I will even let go of my belief that active classroom prayer not be part of the curriculum as long as my belief in equality is respected. If we are going to pray to one god, then we have to give equal time to all gods. After we give 60 seconds to 3000 or more religious deities and however many others we can come up with (such as the Doctor!) we can move on with the rest of the school day.

    “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” –Stephen F. Roberts

    WAYNE June 8:No, Mr. Roberts, I do not, nor will I ever call myself an “atheist”, for I know better.

    We can debate who that Creator is, as that is a fair question and one worthy of debate. But to witness there is a creation, but to conclude there is no creator, is the height of irrationality ~ Wayne Perram (Tex Taylor)

    ANONYMOUS June 8:You have not even wanted to discuss the benefits of including religion in the classroom, which I think are very real and useful.

    WAYNE June 9: But understand Anonymous – and this is no personal threat as no one here in danger of little, old me. You and I will never see eye-to-eye on much of anything of importance. I think the reason I come to boards like this is to voice my displeasure and nothing else but wanting you to know it, as I don’t find your type teachable or rational. In fact, because of your hostile nature toward anything of faith in your very first post, and the demonstrated mockery hereof, I consider you the enemy. You read right.

    (a) Like minded, actively involved parents who value education and also value the benefit of faith and country. Some are rich, some are not. This is mainly what you are paying for – quality parents. Religion is not a dirty word, American history is taught under the assumption America is good, weekly Mass is mandatory whether Catholic, Protestant, Jew, or nothing – and no one complains. Many are not Christian and nary a peep from the parents. Somehow, someway, children of different faiths are not harmed, warped or twisted at the end of each semester. Amazing.

    ANONYMOUS June 9:As far as my religious “mockery” in my first post I believe that non-profits should be treated equally, and just because someone says that they are a religion it is not enough, they also must act like one. I will not apologize for my feelings for the need for equal treatment under the law. If you want to be offended by people and organizations being treated equally, that is on you.

    Please to not claim that I am not rational when YOU are the one with the belief system that cannot be questioned and must be accepted on faith alone. A rational mind requires evidence and powerful ideas are only powerful if they can withstand rigorous scrutiny. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof.

    Yes I recognize that you seem to be a monotheist, but until you grasp the concept that your disbelief in the sun-god Ra (which I am just assuming, actually), or Zeus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster is not dissimilar to my disbelief in all of the above AND the Judea-Christian god, you do not get to debate at the adult table. I do not ask you to accept it and change your beliefs, but if you cannot grasp the unifying concept nothing can be done. Try again when you have the needed conceptual/cognitive skills. Again, I am not asking you to change your faith, but to understand why the concept of doubt exists and the inherent question of the rationality of saying all of these other gods are superstitious nonsense but mine is not

  573. Noah –
    (tongue in cheek – a little) There are two kinds of people: those who divide people into two kinds and those who don’t.

    There are two kinds of people: those who divide people into liberals and conservatives and those who don’t. Those who don’t see people as individuals with complex opinions, each of which should be judged on its own merit.

    Those who do see the world as black and white, good and evil and unless someone is “pure” then they are the enemy. Never mind that some of their ideas are more conservative and some more liberal, if they are the enemy one must stuff them in the square box by force, misrepresent what they say, FORCE them to conform to preconceived ideas of their EVIL ways.

    That’s why I am far more interested in ideas than ideaologies and why I have enjoyed conversing with “anonymous” recently. I’m not getting any younger and I just don’t have time for bigots – of either stripe.

  574. JEAN, up those meds. Once again I read your post and aside from utter confusion I bleed IQ points. Is there really any point to this rambling, because it escapes me as it has so many others.

  575. Perhaps this is a good time for us ‘Old Timers’ to refresh our memories on what it means to be a progressive and give some ‘lib’ral’ food for thought to newcomers.

    I’ve been doing lots and lots of reading, more like studying, as it is one of the things I am interested in and like to do. There have been innumerable such studies done across different disciplines – Psychology, Sociology, Anthropology, History and Philosophy. Here, I am paraphrasing, however, occasionally using some of the exact same words and phrases.

    Theses are a few of the characteristics that denote an “Authoritarian Personality”, how and why he/she got that way. This usually goes for all cultures, in all times, not just American or Western Culture. Starting with the family, the FATHER is the ultimate authority. He is big and strong and what he says goes. “Do as I say and keep your mouth shut – – or else!” The opposite of ‘big and strong’ is ‘small and weak’.

    The FATHER’S job is to protect and provide for his family, a very tall order, which he takes seriously. When he is out and about slaying dragons and hunting for big chunks of red meat to feed the family, he TEMPORARILY transfers his authority to the mother. Fine. The kids misbehave, they are doing ‘wrong’ and must be punished. “Wait till your FATHER gets home!” How often have we heard or said that? One of the ‘wrong’ things is tattling. Yet, when Mom tattles on us to Dad, is she punished? No. The kids are. A strange inconsistency. There are many, many more not-making-sense-such-scenarios.

    The kids learn that someday when they grow up to be big and strong and are always RIGHT, they can do as they like and nobody can punish them since, by then, they have all the authority.. There can be no ‘OR ELSE’. In the meantime, they mostly do what they are told and keep their mouths shut – generation after generation. If they do happen to do something ‘wrong’, maybe nobody tattles so there is no punishment. But they know they deserve to be punished, because they know they ‘done wrong’. (Guilt.) Still, if they can find an excuse or two or somebody else to blame it on, then they never were ‘wrong’ in the first place!

    Where does all this authority come from to begin with? GOD the FATHER. George Washington the FATHER of our country. (Six feet four?) The Holy FATHER. Lots and lots of FATHERS!!!

    There is a flip side though. The “Nurturing Personality.” Yes, there is authority and yes, right and wrong. Instead of blind OBEDIENCE and punishment, we have to ‘fess up’, express GENUINE remorse, make restitution and receive GENUINE forgiveness, not REVENGE/PUNISHMENT. Demonstrations of LOVE and APPROVAL help the process along. This involves EMPATHY, the ability to actually feel and identify with the experiences of others – good, bad or indifferent.

    Example, the husband/boyfriend who gets sick as a dog when his wife/girlfriend goes into childbirth labor. (My husband was kicked out of the labor room 50+ years ago when I went into delivery. He didn’t know what else to do, so he went home to wait for the phone call when it was over. He smoked one of the traditional cigars FATHERS are supposed to pass out when their child is born. As a non-smoker, he got violently ill and wound up in tougher shape than I ever was! I was kinda busy.)

    Most people are a combination of the “Authoritarian” and the “Nurturing” personalities in different respects.

    In the current but usual political climate, there are the Traditional/Conservative/Right/

    Republicans and the Progressive/Liberal/Left/Democrats. Did you know that the French word for “Left” is “Gauche”? Besides also meaning “clumsy” or “awkward”, it has an equal definition – “sinister”.

    Oh, yes. Then there is the “Compassionate Conservative.” In my book that is an oxymoron. It may have been a clever campaign slogan, but there is a vast, vast difference between “compassion” and “empathy.”

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam.

    Auntie Jean

  576. Wayne, you were a bit heavy handed with Anonymous without any cause. Anonymous is what many of us have been trying to get here for a long while. That being a Liberal that debates honestly and with some integrity. I hope Anonymous decides to stay and Wayne I think we should encourage more to be like him. Far better this then the drivel of months past. Just my humble opinion.

  577. Anonymous, thanks for hanging in there. Please don’t give up on this place. Or if you do, let us know where to keep up with your writing! There are several hundred – maybe thousands of readers here. Many have turned away for good but others check in hoping to see some good content to discuss. I’d love to dive into some of these topics with you. I’m in the middle of a very busy season so I don’t have much time to spend but I’m reading and looking forward to more.

    Do you have a blog of your own?

  578. Anonymous, thanks for hanging in there. Please don’t give up on this place. There are several hundred – maybe thousands of readers here. Many have turned away for good but others check in hoping to see some good content to discuss. I’d love to dive into some of these topics with you. I’m in the middle of a very busy season so I don’t have much time to spend but I’m reading and looking forward to more.

    Do you have a blog of your own? Or do you visit any other good blogs?

  579. Thanks for your reasoned words, Anonymous. Wayne has time and again proven he is not capable of new thought or honest debate. His only stated purpose is to disrupt and insult. It is really a waste of time to try reasoning with him. He’s advocating a divided America, as he professed, much like his fellow “conservatives” seem to prefer. The one that is based on “Judeo-Christian” ideals (as if any of them agree on what those are specifically), like our founding fathers supposedly held.

    I have enjoyed your posts and appreciate your perspective. Of course, I have also been labeled “enemy” in the past. Really, Wayne is surrounded and outnumbered by the “enemy” it seems. He lives to harass liberals and democrats. I don’t think there is any other purpose to his being.

  580. I really have to stop responding.

    Wayne, why are you so angry?

    “I will never see eye-to-eye on much of anything of importance. I think the reason I come to boards like this is to voice my displeasure and nothing else but wanting you to know it, as I don’t find your type teachable or rational. In fact, because of your hostile nature toward anything of faith in your very first post, and the demonstrated mockery hereof, I consider you the enemy. You read right.

    The only kinship I have with you is mandated by birthright. I’ll trade barbs or have discussion on a board, and that is it. I don’t care to work with you or live with you given the chance. Your well being means nothing to me now after years of your egregious behavior and bullying. Though I don’t know you personally, I don’t care to know you personally. I don’t like your type. I have no allegiances to you, nor do I wish to help you. Just so we have that straight before any further serious discussion. That goes for your lefty alliances too”

    I stumbled across this forum by accident, I saw a declaration that people on the left never actually put up ideas for discussion, but just whine, complain, and shoot others down. I thought “I’ll play” and did. I did not expect this.

    I attempted to be polite, but I do have a very dry sense of humour that can be difficult to recognize and that can be mistaken for being less cordial by some.

    As far as my religious “mockery” in my first post I believe that non-profits should be treated equally, and just because someone says that they are a religion it is not enough, they also must act like one. I will not apologize for my feelings for the need for equal treatment under the law. If you want to be offended by people and organizations being treated equally, that is on you.

    Please to not claim that I am not rational when YOU are the one with the belief system that cannot be questioned and must be accepted on faith alone. A rational mind requires evidence and powerful ideas are only powerful if they can withstand rigorous scrutiny. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof.

    You really missed the point of the quote I posted (that I thought was an elegant way of introducing a complicated idea. Yes I recognize that you seem to be a monotheist, but until you grasp the concept that your disbelief in the sun-god Ra (which I am just assuming, actually), or Zeus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster is not dissimilar to my disbelief in all of the above AND the Judea-Christian god, you do not get to debate at the adult table. I do not ask you to accept it and change your beliefs, but if you cannot grasp the unifying concept nothing can be done. Try again when you have the needed conceptual/cognitive skills. Again, I am not asking you to change your faith, but to understand why the concept of doubt exists and the inherent question of the rationality of saying all of these other gods are superstitious nonsense but mine is not. Some of us are struck by this problem at an early age, others are not.

    Also you have shown much more hatred to Americans and doubts as to their competence than I have. I do believe we are the greatest nation and that we can solve the toughest challenges, it appears you disagree. That is your right. You spew anger at those who disagree with you. Okay, again not the rational and adult way to act, but it is yours.

    On my posts (until this one perhaps) I tried to mention areas where we were in agreement, because there are many topics we seem to be in agreement on. It appears that it takes very little disagreement with you to become “the enemy.”

    Actually most of your points (a-h) make sense, I have personally advocated for public schools to adopt uniforms for many years for instance, but many of the points are also obvious beyond discussion. Schools make clear rules? Duh. Education before athletics? No doubt. It is better for parents to be involved? Did we not agree on that days ago? Need for college prep? Yes, it is not 1974. For the record I am strongly opposed to “self-esteem” ribbons. I feel that real self-esteem is earned by the self for work and true achievement.

    A subset of point (b) is telling: “you don’t abide, you’re out” this is a fundamental difference between the private school and the public school, the ability to weed out anyone who does not measure up to the standards of the institution. It is easier to keep your scores up when you can remove anyone that might lower your average. Public schools become the school of last resort (before prison).

    Also in the glorification of the students and parents of private schools have you looked at self-selecting sample bias? It is pertinent.

    To everyone else,
    Thanks for your time, and your comments. I feel I have learned why debate is difficult here.

    –The Enemy (hostile, unteachable, and evidently I have been bullying Wayne for years… I must use this power wisely, and only for good.)

  581. Anonymous –

    It’s going to take me a while to digest your post, but a couple of things come to mind, the first of which is that what we used to do worked just fine; what we are doing is to my mind a disaster, so I don’t see reinventing the wheel.

    The second is that what foreign countries are doing is working just fine, so if we don’t want to be “regressive” and use our own prior blueprints, then let’s STILL not reinvent the wheel and do what *they* are doing.

    Thirdly, the idea that tests don’t measure anything is in my mind a bogus meme. We all know that the smartest kids in our classes always did the best on the tests. Were there exceptions? Of course, but not many.

    Fourthly, just paying the same people more money to do the same job they are already doing doesn’t make any sense. I don’t see how that improves education. I think you educate the teachers and then TEST them, yes test them, and wind them up and get the hell out of their way. Make the tests hard, but make the salaries tied to passing those very hard tests, so you don’t just throw good money after bad by paying the same people more to do the same thing they are already not doing very well.

    Fiftly, there have always been crappy parents, uneducated and uneduc-able who live up in the hollers and imbibe strong drink. Why do we need to contract with these people, who can’t even get their own lives together? They won’t be any help. It seems like my blaming my patients when I miss their lung cancer because they didn’t come and help me read the x-rays. I am the expert; not them. Ditto the teachers, not the parents. Now if the kids come to school dirty and hungry, that is a different matter, but I don’t see adding even more complexity unnecessarily, particularly when what we used to do was just dandy.

    Thoughts? Anybody?

  582. A few suggestions of experience and observation about private schooling from one set of eyes Anonymous. Here is my starting point after mutually busting the unions, firing the chaff, eliminating the Dept. of Education, etc…That’s the first necessary step. You’ve got to raze to rebuild.

    But understand Anonymous – and this is no personal threat as no one here in danger of little, old me. You and I will never see eye-to-eye on much of anything of importance. I think the reason I come to boards like this is to voice my displeasure and nothing else but wanting you to know it, as I don’t find your type teachable or rational. In fact, because of your hostile nature toward anything of faith in your very first post, and the demonstrated mockery hereof, I consider you the enemy. You read right.

    The only kinship I have with you is mandated by birthright. I’ll trade barbs or have discussion on a board, and that is it. I don’t care to work with you or live with you given the chance. Your well being means nothing to me now after years of your egregious behavior and bullying. Though I don’t know you personally, I don’t care to know you personally. I don’t like your type. I have no allegiances to you, nor do I wish to help you. Just so we have that straight before any further serious discussion. That goes for your lefty alliances too. :wink:

    See, there are two Americas. Whatever I have to do, I will find a way to circumvent all of you, work around you. I hope that was your leftist’s intent over the last 15-20 years as that was not my starting point. I find you liberals culpable without apology, and guilty of both negligence and incompetence as charged. :wink:

    ——

    But for conversation sake, let me make a few observations Anonymous about the “magic” of excellent private schools and the two common misperceptions used as excuse when private vs. public compared. And I’ll bet if I were to add up the cost of a typical public education Anonymous, it would well more than offset the $250+K costs for my own two children. My property taxes, sales taxes, state taxes, even federal taxes certainly say as much over 15 years.

    (1) Private instructors make more? Not here. In fact, I understand they make about 95 cents on the dollar in comparison to the comparable public school teacher and are happy to do so to get away from the bureaucrats and rotten parents.

    (2) Private schools are more successful statistically due to a higher per student allocation of funding? Not here. In fact, the per student funding is generally less, and the classroom sizes were generally larger.

    So what’s the secret to higher test scores, respectable kid to adult, pleased parents, and happy instructors? Not all are required, but suggested as guidelines. Most are applicable.

    (a) Like minded, actively involved parents who value education and also value the benefit of faith and country. Some are rich, some are not. This is mainly what you are paying for – quality parents. Religion is not a dirty word, American history is taught under the assumption America is good, weekly Mass is mandatory whether Catholic, Protestant, Jew, or nothing – and no one complains. Many are not Christian and nary a peep from the parents. Somehow, someway, children of different faiths are not harmed, warped or twisted at the end of each semester. Amazing.
    (b) Schools make the rules which are clear and concise – you don’t abide, you’re out. Disruption without penalty is not tolerated. Respect for teachers is learned and expected, and reinforced by parents.
    (c) Parents determine the quality upon completion of classroom instruction and teachers and administration are judged accordingly.
    (d) Disciplined is administered under purview of school administration, agreed to and signed by parental consent before class starts.
    (e) School uniforms are the rule and everyone looks just alike. They are ugly and staid in dress and girl’s uniforms are entirely modest. I did not notice all students classic prudes or rubes when they left either. Somehow, our children found a a way to experience “grown up” and “fun” and “esteem” without the help of the bureaucrats and free ribbons for all in attendance.
    (f) Education comes first – athletics second. You are encouraged to be an athlete and various extracurricular activities are also encouraged such as music and the arts. But education comes first, and all students are judged by the same standard, star or not.
    (g) A premium is placed on college preparation in high school, if interested. Vo-tech is also an option. At parent/teacher conferences, parents are expected to attend.
    (h) Emphasis on the basics through challenge and repetition starts Day 1: that would be reading, writing, and arithmetic for you progressives. Our children were not glorified apes. We had the belief children rise to meet their parents and schools expectations and children wish to please.

    It’s about that simple. Reads hauntingly familiar to most public education systems circa 1950, before progressive ideals of “self-esteem”, “social justice” and “tolerance” deemed a birthright.

  583. PFesser,
    Changing from an abstract format where lessons are taught, information absorbed and children tested on the ability to retain information to a format where individual subjects are not taught separately (why should history and literature be two separate subjects?). To a whole day approach with multiple teachers able to be called upon for help in specific areas. The school year would be divided into blocks (6-weeks?) and each block would an encompassing task that the students worked on together, or in multiple teams, to complete. Each block could have a different emphasis but all would have elements from across the spectrum and information would be learned as the need for it arose. Making learning relevant to what the children are doing.

    One hope for this model, that has repeatedly played out in schools across the country, as I referenced earlier, is the FIRST competition. And a point that seemed relevant is that they repeatedly have students volunteering (sometimes begging) to spend more time in the classroom. At this stage this is a self-selecting sample, but the ability to take away the “why do I need to learn X?” argument in itself is interesting. Also pertinent is the idea that different pieces of information fit together like puzzle pieces to complete the whole and we do children a dis-service making them fill in several smaller puzzles out of context (math, science…) and when they leave school we expect them to assemble the whole puzzle on their own?

    This seems like a more natural way for children to learn (combination of observing, doing, asking questions and solving problems) than having them largely sit for hours a day. I would expect the activity would help quell some restlessness and subsequent behavior problems. Also worth noting that when the children are enjoying what they are doing being sent out of the classroom is a punishment and not a reward.

    I would like to see having parents involved at the beginning of each term with something of a contract for success for the children, explaining what sort of support is expected by the parents. Explaining what the teachers will be doing and what is expected from the children and the parents. I would even call for parents to aid in classroom clean-up though out the term and to view the finished projects each block. This could help the sense of community and demystify the process while encouraging parents to take notice of what is happening. Will all parents be able to dedicate time? No, but I would hope to foster the understanding that the parents need to take active interest in the educational process, and encourage all who can to do so.

    As children are no longer free farm labor for the most part I would suggest year round school and possibly eliminating strict grade levels and more of a tiered competency model, perhaps you are reading at the 12th grade level but only doing math at the 10th. Allowing students to move on to greater challenges as soon as they are ready.

    Problems: This seems overly utopian, but I truly feel that teaching more along the lines of how children would learn “in the wild” has merit. Not all subjects seem equally effective to be actively taught, but hopefully smarter people than I can address this issue. Special needs children will still have special needs and is not addressed in this model. Discipline is a thorny issue and even if you have 80% of the students engaged the remainder can be a disruptive problem. Harder for a teacher to manage active learning and harder to teach teachers how to teach. Is current architecture of schools well formed for this style? How do you measure individual accomplishment? Is it appropriate for early learning, how do you develop task based projects for all levels? Possibility of devolving into too much play? Reading is a core skill, does it need to come first?

    Regardless of the teaching methodology applied we need to address what measurements we use to define success. What do we want/expect HS graduates to do? Once we decide that question we have to address how to measure the outcome. Then we have to make certain that our expectations are not controlled purely by the ruler used to measure, what is “enough” for one will not be enough for another. The distinction between training and education must be recognized and addressed. For example spelling is training, while communicating is education.

    I would hope to incorporate learning how to learn as a process into the educational system and not have “learning” equated with “schooling” one is an ongoing, natural process the other an activity.

    Hopelessly idealistic.

  584. I don’t know if it is true in other states but in Michigan to teach at a community college all you need is a masters degree. Classes in teaching are not required. I think the pay raise will get us a better quality of teacher. I would even go so far as to have it be a school wide evaluation on performance, As a whole they pass or no one gets the bonus. This will force them to put time and energy into the areas that are falling behind. Lets clean out the people who cannot perform for whatever reason.

    Give teachers greater autonomy in creating their lesson plan. With my sliding scale of pay they have great incentive to create a curriculum that is effective, be that they create it on their own or seek help from those who are already seeing success. Tie a person’s lively hood to their performance. and I think we will see marked change. A side effect of the financial reason for our best and brightest becoming teachers, along with this greater autonomy, I think we will see these smart people come up with better and more effective ways to teach our children.

    I think schools and teaching should be one of our top 5 expenditures in this country. The roll of a teacher should be a position of honor and something people should want to fight to become and fight to keep once attained. Everything else fails and becomes an impossibility in this country if we are not well educated, it needs to be one of our top priorities.

    I think focusing on the parents is a waste of energy. Too many people, too many reasons why they are not doing their part to try and focus resources on this area. That is not to say efforts should not be made, just that it should play a minor roll in the overall picture.

  585. Anonymous –
    Before we get into specifics of teaching certificates and such, I believe there must be a fundamental change in the framework of education in order to produce the atmosphere where teaching and learning can take place. And to be specific, I mean: clean classrooms, discipline, order, streamlining of teachers’ duties so they can put more time-on-task. Do you agree, and if so, how do you envision that happening? If not, how would *you* begin? What are your priorities, and in what order? Not to put you on the spot, but I don’t have a specific plan myself and I’d like to hear what you have.

    Thanks,
    Prof

  586. Noah –
    Bless their hearts; for the most part it’s not the teachers’ faults. Many are poorly trained; they get NO mentoring once they start teaching, and they spend their time doing busy work. At my grade school Mr. B_______, the principal, would watch over new teachers carefully and if they were having problems, he loved to teach and would come in and teach some classes for them while they watched, as well as mentor them until they got up to speed. Ditto the older teachers; they watched over the new ones too, like mothers. My niece is a teacher; she says git and fer and sich and “I seen,” “he done this or that.” I said, Honey you can’t talk like that; you’re a damned teacher. She said that all the kids talked like that and they were not supposed to correct them because their parents talked like that too. Jesus.

    She teaches special ed and spends about an hour and a half every night DOING WRITTEN LESSON PLANS. She is doing lesson plans to teach children how to color, do crafts and not eat the paste. What the hell is WRONG with us?

    The system is rotten from top to bottom; it is a physical impossibility to do a good job; I don’t care how well-trained you are. And the few well-trained ones eventually (actually, sooner rather than later) burn out and leave the field. We have to change this. It has to happen.

  587. Wayne,
    Thank you. I found the link interesting, but you continue to avoid any constructive discussion on what to actually do. It is easy to say destroy public education, I have yet to hear the next step.

    The initial call was to discuss ideas, I put out some starting points that would completely change the way school is taught, and reasons why I thought they have merit. I have offered case studies of results, some hugely interesting writing on the topic and several points of teaching methodology to discuss. I have yet to get to how teaching certificates act to prevent good people from entering the classroom, or my horror at how many of our science teachers are scientifically illiterate themselves. Actual problems that can be discussed in detail and potential solutions debated.

    I have learned that this is not the point. Complaining is not discussing. “Tear it down” is not a plan. I wanted rational discussion of various and competing ideas and instead I got humans.

  588. Personally I would give teachers a 50% pay raise to attract a better quality teacher. Hold 75% of their pay in reserve and it pays out in a performance bonus at years end, a sliding scale. Fail;to perform 2 years in a row and you lose your ability to teach until you attend retraining.

  589. Okay Anonymous, I’ve been waiting to respond to that tome you published, but now there is no need. This one is directly for you. Pfesser is absolutely correct. The only way to fix public education is to destroy it and start over. And the author, an educator in higher education mind you and a San Francisco liberal until 9/11, agrees.

    Take copious notes. Because pictures are worth a thousand words they say, replete with proof of ties to socialism and communism – did I mention union thugs yanking kids out of the classroom on a school day after years of leftist indoctrination? :wink: Enjoy…

    http://pajamasmedia.com/zombie/2011/06/08/how-a-teachers-rally-made-me-anti-education/

  590. I have been in Canada many times, and we don’t want their system. A few years ago, Quebec nearly susceeded and people speculated on what would happen should the country break up. La Raza and some other groups want to hispanicisize the South West so it will revert back to Mexico at least culturally.

    Mexico needed settlers in Texas and they encouraged Angos from the United States to move there. Too late, they discovered people from the United States were taking over. As you say, a country needs a common language and culture or it will fragment. Mark Stynne wrote in America Alone that Hispanic and other immigrants will be our salvation. It does matter how we manage in flow.

    People had the same debate around 1900, when so many Scandinavians and Germans moved into northern parts of the US that the major language was no longer English. Germans were forceably integrated into English speaking society during WW1. It was another of our dishonorable hours.

    Clinton committed obstruction of justice, and perjury. He also lost his law license. Most of us would have gone to jail for what he did. Kennedy was a womanizer, but I don’t think he did anything illegal. His defenders said Clinton was prosecuted for committing sex acts, to make it appear Republicans were hunting witches. Thanks to the news media, the charge stuck.

    I agree, Rush and some others were unmerciful, but I also think the Clintons got away with theft in the White Water affair. Remember how Hillary played the cattle market one time and made a lot of money?

    Otherwise, I agreed with much of Bill did especially after Republicans took Congress and he had no choice but to jump to the head of the parade. He became rather like an Eisenhour Republican.

    I agree about Jack Welch.,.I didn’t hear what you heard, but I’ve heard him talk before.

    We have been at war in Yeman for awhile. We are just hearing about it now.

  591. Obamacare on the ropes in the llth Circuit Court, with even the liberal judges joining in:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/post/a-bad-day-for-the-individual-mandate-in-the-11th-circuit/2011/03/29/AG3A1bMH_blog.html

  592. Did I hear the news right? We are now in a war in Yemen? Too?

    WTF?

  593. James –

    Absolutely true about the English-only debate. If you want to see a people divided, spend a little time in Canada. Tremendous amounts of money wasted in printing everything in two languages. Brandeis said that it is often more important that a thing be *settled* than it be settled *right* and designating English as the language of the realm makes all the sense in the world if what you want is a united country, so we can get onto more important things.

    Re: politics of personal destruction. I may be a little skewed in my perception, but from 1993-95 I spent about six hours every day in my basement building an airplane, and I had the radio on all the time, mostly listening to Limbaugh. It got SOOOO old; he wouldn’t give Clinton a single good word, and a lot of it was just nonsense. I was no Clinton fan but it seemed pretty unfair. Yes, they DID denigrate Reagan – witness Garry Trudeau’s “trek through Reagan’s brain” series, but they went after Clinton hammer and tong – and if you remember, they impeached him over something that Kennedy was reputed to do on a regular basis. And no, it was NOT about his lying, even though they said so. It was just “anything” they could find to destroy him. That’s MY take on it.

    But all that’s old history. I blame the Repuglicans primarily for starting it; just my bias perhaps. Others feel differently. But no matter, that’s not what is important now. We HAVE to do something to get this government on track and I mean RIGHT NOW.

    Speaking of which – Jack Welch was on Piers Morgan last night. Jesus, he must be eighty years old, but you talk about a ball of fire! If he would run for president I would quit my job to campaign for him. He talked about the Chinese and how they had a Vision and we did not, and the things we needed to focus on and how to do it. It was amazing, just amazing. If I can find the interview I’ll post a link. It’s not too often an eighty year-old man gets me roaring at the television, “YES!” but by God he did it.

  594. The Corps of Engineers abandoned a make- shift dike at Hamburg, Iowa. Farmers brought in rock and more dirt as they fixed a leak and strengthened the dike. So far, it is still holding. A woman in Ft. Pierre, SD advertised on Facebook that she would let refugees do their laundry at her house. Blencoe, Iowa hired locals to build a five foot dike around the town. The Corps of Engineers told them yesterday it needs to be two feet higher. Instead of evacuating, they are rebuilding the dike.

    I had a long chat with a Corps of Engineers rep yesterday, and he confirmed my interpretation of events. We had planned to leave before water overtook our main escape route. I 29 will be closed within a day and a half. The predictions are based on an average of an inch of rain per week. The power is or may be off three or four miles south and beyond. The company tells us they have no plans to turn off our lights at this time.

    We are getting busier as imagionation becomes reality. We are buying a sump pump today while we still can.

    At 60 degrees, it is almost jacket weather. We may get two or three inches of rain in the next few days. My wife threatens to vote me off the island if we get too wet.

  595. I agree with Wayne Perram about the Democrats and politics of personal destruction. Jean even provided an example. Thanks to Ted Kennedy, “to bork” became a verb. James Carville dismissed Jennifer Flowers with “all you have to do is drag ten dollars through a trailer park.” Read and hear the awful lies Democrats and others said about Sarah Palin. Remember how quickly Democrats blamed Palin, talk show hosts and others for the Arizona shooting before we knew the shooter had a muddled political view which was as much left as right. Recall the short time our new civility lasted as it ended with more Democratic name calling. Republicans are guilty too, but Democrats use it for their professional gain.

    Ronald Reagan said ” I did not leave the Democratic party, the party left me.” The same is true of southern and other Democrats.

    I agree with Jean about the power of music.

    I disagree with how she presented the debate over English as the national language. Her calling proponents of legalizing English as “regressives” while denigrating their writing or speaking skills begs the question. Her slurs of people who support legalized English has nothing to do with the issue. Jean has just provided us with another example of ” the politics of personal destruction.”

    We can throw all the money we have at education and build fancy new schools, but without a culture and parents who value the power of learning, we will fail.

  596. The rest of the School Board story.

    I had run for school board because having come from that very school system I had had a terribly difficult time catching up in college, and man was I Motivated! I still had fond memories of my excellent grade school and was still friends with many of my grade school teachers, all of whom were beyond frustrated.

    It didn’t take me long to realize just how large the problem was. The Board was mired in a tar-baby. We were completely unable to tackle any problems that really mattered. Incompetent teachers? Protected by the union. Firing one was nearly impossible; the process we were forced to go through took months, and sometimes years, with the union lawyers fighting us every step of the way. The service union that represented janitors and school bus drivers dominated every board meeting, and they were constantly featherbedding any job, like the two amorous janitors who replaced the one at my own old school. It was impossible to discipline any janitor who did not do his job, because once again the process was a veritable tar-baby, and the union lawyers had all the time and money in the world, which we, as part-time board members with other jobs and families – did not.

    But it wasn’t just the school system employees. The teachers could not enforce any discipline. The paddle had been taken out of the school. (My superintendent buddy had an interesting observation: you only need it for one kid out of a hundred, but the other ninety-nine know it’s there.) Kids knew that, if they wanted to take a dispute with a teacher to the limit, they would ultimately win and so did the teachers, so they didn’t even try to enforce any discipline. The principals would not back the teachers for fear of lawsuits; the Central Office would NOT back a principal who stood up to unruly kids, parents OR teachers, and the Board would, for fear of lawsuits not back ANYBODY. Parents regularly stormed into the schools, threatening to beat up a teacher who “was mean” to his kid – and sometimes doing it.

    The waste of money was horrendous. When I was small we had one school bus, which ran morning and evening, and it was filled to overflowing with children. A few years later when I was on the board, we had three buses: one for the “big kids,” one for the “little kids” – grade schoolers, and the legendary “short bus” for the retarded kids. (Remember, the school system is funded 3/1 for any child who has a diagnosis. (retardation, Downs, ADD, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, Aspergers, chronic thumb-sucking, (that’s a joke) ad infinitum ad nauseum, so the system had a perverse incentive to classify a child as deficient – and did so.) Someone had decided that the “big kids” might pick on the small kids, so they had separate buses. Same thing for the “deficient” kids. My response was, where the hell is the bus driver and why can’t he stop any such shenanigans? No answer. That’s because it was a full-employment issue for bus drivers, not a child issue. Oh and by the way, because of population loss – and the fact there were three buses instead of one, all the buses were about 1/3 full. Thrice the fuel, maintenance and labor costs, fewer children transported.

    We lived in the mountains of West Virginia. It snows there. Formerly all the bus drivers were burly men. When it snowed, they put on this amazing invention called, “tire chains” and did their duty. Fast forward: now 9/10 of the drivers are women, many of whom are small and physically unable to put on chains, even if they wanted to lie in the snow at 5am to do so – which they didn’t. So, once again for fear of union actions (and lawsuits, should the bus run into the ditch) the superintendent calls off school even with a threat of snow. No school, no learning – not that much takes place even if they *have* school.

    So the Board, terminally frustrated, turned its focus to the only job it *could* do: building new schools. The Central Office was always pressing the already-beleaguered local taxpayers for new school buildings, telling them that new, clean schools were the key to learning. I pointed out that, not only was it less expensive to renovate an old building, that learning had nothing to do with the building’s age: many of the buildings at Oxford, for example, were built hundreds of years ago, and Oxford was a pretty good school. I voted against all such buildings, but was out-voted. I didn’t make many friends.

    So, there was my school board experience. As a parent, several years hence, I tolerated the system as long as I could and then moved my kids to private school. My only regret was that I hesitated at all; they should have been in private schools from grade 1.

    The public school system is like an old house: it is so rotten from the foundation that I believe the only way to “reform” it is to tear it to the ground and start over. I’m not holding my breath. If you have small children and are unable to get them in private school I suggest you do the next best thing: enroll them in Mandarin classes so they will be able to talk to their bosses.

  597. Hi Congenial Gang,

    Ah, the topic of education, dear to my heart. First of all, many, many accomplished and successful people have often come from poor, disadvantaged and blighted backgrounds. Many, many privileged people mess up their lives something awful. There doesn’t seem to be a magic ‘one-size-fits-all’ formula.

    I do believe there are a few basics that are worth considering. The emphasis on “Earning Power” has become of increasing importance to the exclusion of other factors that make up the quality of life. Didn’t the Founding Fathers say something about “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness”. I don’t recall anything about the “Pursuit of the Almighty Buck”.

    A mentor or two along the way can inspire and point out talents a kid doesn’t even know he/she has. This can encourage and help any kid discover his/her own potential. So how does that happen? A classical education from K through 12 is probably one of the best indicators of the educated personality. This includes all of the Humanities, i. e., languages, (Greek and/or Latin for openers), Literature, Philosophy, History, the Fine Arts of Painting, Music, Sculpture and Architecture along with the myriad Physical and Biological Sciences.

    From ‘boy toy’s’ and my own experiences, as well as our sons in both private and public schools, I don’t think it much matter.

    We hear a lot these days from the regressives about “English Only” and even making it legally the mandatory language of the U.S. This coming from some, whose English reading comprehension is minimal and writing skills, dismal.

    Let’s start with music. There are some indications from studies that early music education, especially in theory and harmony, is helpful in brain development toward math skills. There is plenty of math in music!!! I had very early music education and breezed through higher math courses, no problem. Well, I occasionally have some difficulty with arithmetic balancing the checkbook, OK. But higher math concepts were always pretty easy for me.

    Languages. I had Latin early on. The Romance languages; French, Spanish, Latin, Italian and much of English have a foundation in Latin. The terminology common to Chemistry, Biology and Botany are often of Latin derivation. I was in classes with kids who had not had Latin and saw them struggling to memorize nomenclature. I already knew the root Latin words of many of the names.

    One time much later in life, ‘boy toy’ and I were sitting in a hotel lobby in Copenhagen, Denmark waiting for our transportation to the airport. The desk clerk was a charming older man probably well beyond retirement age. We noticed as each party approached the desk he spoke to them in their native language. We recognized some of the languages, but not all. He switched languages with each guest as easily as just turning his head toward them. We were amazed!!! When there was a lull in his business, we went over and asked him how many languages he spoke. He sort of chuckled and said, “Eleven”. As we got acquainted he told us he had worked for the National Geographic Society all his life all over the world. We asked him then, which language was the hardest. He thought a minute and then said, “Well, after the first two or three, the rest are easy. Probably Russian and Chinese are the hardest because they have such different alphabets and characters.” Why was he working as a desk clerk, for heaven’s sake! He said, “Well, I thought I might be useful here.” He certainly was!

    I think curiosity about the world around us is innate. When nurtured and encouraged, any kid, anywhere, can learn just about anything – given a chance.

    People, who don’t know each other, don’t know each others names, don’t know each other’s language, can sit together and feel the exact same emotions in music. Their hearts beat to the same rhythms of the drums.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam.

    Auntie Jean

  598. And there was the whole swarm of southern toadies like Shelby who got elected as Dems and changed party in midstream. Yippee!!

    And still running now as Republicans for eighteen years and winning big time. What’s that say about your beloved the Dimocratic party?

    Liberals win big about every sixteen years, then provide a reminder to a new generation of misinformed, unemployed college graduates why they and their policies are abysmal failures.: 1960, 1976, 1992, and 2008 – history repeating itself, but we never learn.

    Just wait until 2012, and you’ll need a whole new set of excuses. The message of 2010 obviously didn’t make it to the cortex and the situation terminal.

  599. Thanks anonymous, good thought out comments.

  600. And there was the whole swarm of southern toadies like Shelby who got elected as Dems and changed party in midstream. Yippee!!

  601. Ronnie was a democrat before he was a republican. Politics is a pretty stupid game. They change shirts every now and then. The teams are really pretty even. When they get mismatched, they pull a Liebermann.

  602. Pfesser, I thought you better than this:

    I blame the Repuglicans for that, since it started IMHO when Clinton was in office – the politics of personal destruction.

    Really? Clinton? Ronald Reagan was referred to as STUPID by Time Magazine and Richard Reeves in print,. Do the names Robert Bork or Clarence Thomas ring any bells about the politics of personal destruction?

    How many times has the race card, abortion card been played by Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and the rabid dogs of the NAACP and NOW long before 1992?

    Oh, I’ve got a million of them I can recall that predate anything Clinton received. the attack dogs have been from the left since I was small. Hell, even Walter Cronkite was a closet Commie. It was during Clinton’s time that Republicans finally got into the game. Now with the advent of widespread internet usage, the jig is up and the game is even.

    You need to put the bottle down, and jog the memory my friend.

  603. I have come to believe I shouldn’t post when I’ve been drinking, but what the hell:

    Anonymous: You are what I have been hoping for since I joined this forum over a year ago: a professed liberal (I profess libertarianism) who can drill down to the issues and talk about them in a lively way but still show respect for those who disagree. I have been beating that drum for a long time but the damage done by the MSM (in my opinion) on BOTH sides is complete: many feel that complete obliteration of one’s opponent is the only way to go; I blame the Repuglicans for that, since it started IMHO when Clinton was in office – the politics of personal destruction. You do not do that; in that respect you are ‘way ahead of me; attack me and I’ll respond, sometimes viciously. That is a fault and I recognize it.

    I want to know what you think on the issues and why, so I can hone my own point of view. I am always looking for points I hadn’t considered to improve my stand on things. Please continue.

    Unfortunately there has been too much water over the dam with many of us; I tried to start a new dialog at the beginning of the year, but as I said, too much water. Several of us don’t respect each other much; that’s a damned shame, but unfortunately probably appropriate in many cases.

    Anyway, as General MacArthur said, “Proceed.”

    Hope the alcohol didn’t make me say something stupid there…time for another toddy.

  604. Nice to meet you, Anonymous. Great posts and ideas. I miss great conversations here, so finding your posts was awesome. Most people have given up trying to have constructive conversations here and have moved on. I’m sure Stonekettle isn’t legit. Stonekettle Station is another blog, and that post didn’t sound a thing like him. It’s probably an impersonation from someone who feels deprived of the ability to bully Jim/Stonekettle over on his blog.

    You’ve provided a lot to learn/think about. Thank you for that. Welcome to the porch. Have some pie.

  605. “For those of you enamored with political polls to shore up your point of view and opinions, here are some thoughts to ponder. Historically, the totalitarian tyrants have always adhered to this principle as expressed by the dictator, Joseph Stalin:

    “A single death is a tragedy. [Ten, a hundred, a thousand] a million deaths is a statistic.”

    “Sisyphus quit. Atlas Shrugged.” Cynical Jean”

    Jean, I tease you about getting old; I guess I shouldn’t do that, because I’m not far behind, but I have to tell you: I can’t make heads or tails of your posts. Are you all right?

  606. Sorry, one last thing.

    >I really have come to the conclusion that many of you Libs are proponents of a police >state

    Really stonekettle, is this productive? Is it too much to accept that we have similar hopes for our nation even if we disagree (often only partially) on how to get there? Or is it more fun to throw insults back and forth. And yes I have seen insults originating from the left towards the right as well, and find those discouraging and counter-productive too. Are we children?

    But as a “lib” I can say that I am not a proponent of a police state nor are any other left leaning individuals that I am aware of. Earlier I advocated for the legalizing of rec. drugs and the reduction therefore of police power and a reduction in the non-violent prison population so I think I have already identified myself in the non-police state crowd.

    After 9/11 it is as if we have become frightened children. I was not in favor of the bulk of the Patriot Act when President Bush signed it into law (plus any bill with “Patriot” in the title worries me a bit) and I was opposed to President Obama renewing it. So it seems I am destined to be disappointed both right and left.

    Nothing new for me actually, I want rational discourse and instead I get politics.

  607. Wayne,

    I understand that you feel as if spending money on education will not help, sorry if my trying to clarify that I was look for less federal intervention instead of more federal intervention was taking you out of context, or fixating on a single word. I wanted to focus on the word that you used to be certain it did not appear that I was twisting your words. It felt like my idea was not making it through translation.

    I did suggest that higher pay and being treated with respect (as I remember teachers being treated when I was a kid) would draw better candidates to be teachers. That was all I said about education spending. You have repeatedly stated that spending more on the current system is wrong.

    >and the mind bending irrationality of believing if we only pour more money into a broken >system, it will miraculously heal itself.

    >So you can throw all the money to the winds of waste, but if the student not adequately >prepared, both scholastically and mannerly, then (excuse all the cliches) all the money in >the world won’t fix your problems.

    I attempted to start a dialogue about ways of restructuring the school environment to ways that have shown great success in areas as well as being more in line with what many people who research the way children learn claim is better. And I finally have some actual policy ideas back in return. Close Dept. of Education and get better parents. We have already agreed on the parents issue. Maybe you could explain why you feel that closing DoE needs to occur. Who is in favor of incompetent anyone?

    Originally the desire was to step up to the plate and put out ideas that could be discussed, and to some degree this has been successful. But I think our relationship is stuck in a rut. You keep telling me that spending money is a waste and I try to clarify and identify when I think it is useful and why. I identify issues and progressive approaches that I think have merit. And a clarification: when I said that the public school system was something that I was proud of (or something to that effect) I was referring to the concept of offering a quality education to all the children of the nation. I feel that this greatly helped our transition from an agrarian culture to an industrial culture. I was not, however, saying I was proud of its current condition.

    Yes sometimes I drop back to just explaining that I fundamentally believe that we are a better nation with strong public education, with energy sources that we control, and that clean and efficient is better. I cannot show supporting evidence for these positions they are beliefs that I hold. I do not expect everyone to agree with these ideals

    I have been accused of being unwilling to listen to opposing ideas (you apologized for the stereotyping and I accept, I am not trying to reopen that, just explain my position). I have been repeatedly told that spending on education is a waste without discussing merits of changing the way we approach education. I suggested ways to completely dismantle and restructure the learning experience, ways that do not call for more spending, and that has warranted no real discussion. My vision is a radical departure from the status quo and we have not even gotten to discussions of the benefits of student to student interaction where the faster students are utilized to help slower students in team activities and using technology to train rapid pattern recognition which has also shown great promise. Or the micro-step math classes that have been used to great effect in some locales. Or the very core problem of how to develop critical thinking skills in students, something that is desperately being addressed by some at the university level.

    We have not gotten to the related area of Dr. Perry’s work on the development of mental processing in students (authority > relativism > using criteria > developing criteria. Interesting stuff, with some impact on how/what/when children learn different kinds of information and the cognitive development that has to accompany such discovery.

    You have not even wanted to discuss the benefits of including religion in the classroom, which I think are very real and useful.

    I feel like I am trying to honestly discuss ideas and what I have gotten back is not to throw good money after bad, but I have no detailed idea of how you propose to fix the problem (I know close DoE and get better parents, but it is not enough detail to really discuss). I brought up the idea of what metric do we use to measure success, with no response. This idea is important because how we measure goes a long way in determining what is done. It is critical in determining direction. What do we want children to be able to do when they leave high school? We cannot measure success until we know what the ruler is. I recently read some very interesting ideas on the difference between training and learning, but we have not gotten to these ideas.

    The world has changed in the last 20 years, now I think in terms of things that are “only” information and ergo easy to find whenever I need to. How to sift and rate information, learn what information to look for in order to solve any given problem, this becomes the difficult part. How do we address this and does our current educational system destroy this ability with rote learning only to have to find a way to reintroduce it later?

    I have fessed up to being willing to modestly raise the cost of energy to fund research for eventual long term solutions to the energy problem. A problem that has been obviously coming for 30 years. We have not even gotten to the notion that gas must still be cheap as long as we are willing to throw it away mowing grass (I blame the French for that).

    Bored now.

    Raji,
    I agree that discipline in the schools is a primary problem that must be addressed, I had (mentally at least) included this in my early post regarding respecting teachers as professionals, but have not really gotten back to these ideas with the whole trying to clarify that my ideas were not based on just spending more money, in some unknown way, to “fix” the problem. Legal fears are a real problem, how do we minimize this worry? How do we convince parents that teachers need to exert control in the classroom? What is the line that teachers should not cross? Is there one? What “rights” should students in various grades expect to have respected? This could make for an interesting discussion.

    Pfesser,
    No I have not read “Hot, Flat and Crowded” but I have read some excellent reviews and discussions about the book and some engaging interviews with the author. I need to put it on my “to read” shelf. Being able to maintain our technological and innovation edge is vital in being a leading global force. This ties back to learning and scientific literacy and development of criteria, but as I have said we do not seem to be able to get past the need to “not spend more money on education” level of discourse.

    I have enjoyed everyone’s gracious acceptance of me on this forum.

  608. Can any of you challenged Libs and firm believers in the necessity of the Dept. of Education explain to me why this abomination Dept. warrants a paramilitary team?

    SWAT Team Raids House at 6 AM and Handcuffs Father of Three Young Kids to Execute a Dept. of Education Search Warrant for Estranged Wife’s Defaulted Student Loans

    http://reason.com/blog/2011/06/08/no-really-swat-team-raids-hous

    I really have come to the conclusion that many of you Libs are proponents of a police state. We’ve got the IRS raiding kids penny banks, the TSA facilitating legalized molestation, and now the Dept. of Education breaking down people’s doors. And you want more of it? :roll:

    I can hardly wait to see what happens when the butchers of Obamacare get hold of you. Just remember, you’ll get to share in the pain….

  609. Hi Congenial Gang,

    For those of you enamored with political polls to shore up your point of view and opinions, here are some thoughts to ponder. Historically, the totalitarian tyrants have always adhered to this principle as expressed by the dictator, Joseph Stalin:

    “A single death is a tragedy. [Ten, a hundred, a thousand] a million deaths is a statistic.”

    “Sisyphus quit. Atlas Shrugged.” Cynical Jean

    Aloha! Namaste. Shalom. Saalam.

    Auntie Jean

  610. The current discussion and debate is great. I will definitely stay out of any discussion relating to energy and it’s components. My knowledge of electricity is plug it in and turn it on but I do know enough to make sure I’m grounded. I do not like the feel of 110 volts.

    With regard to the discussion on education, both Wayne and Pfessor hit on the one component of education that has to be included in the equation which is discipline. Without discipline there is no education. That is the missing element in today’s education system.

    Our society has become a litigious society. As long as the school system can be sued for any mishandling of a child, there will be restraints applied toward discipline. A few bad apples have really created a rotten barrel. When police have to be called in to control a second grader who threatens the teacher, the school system has lost control. When a kindergarten teacher is not allowed to hug a child who fell down and skinned his knee, the school system has lost compassion.

    Pour all the money you want into public education, remove all the “No Child Left Behind” standard tests, change the curriculum to allow new ideas and techniques, you will still have the problem of discipline in the classroom.

    How do we start putting discipline back in the school system? That to me seems to be the question that needs to be answered first.

  611. Anonymous,

    I’m not contending we don’t need a good public school system. If we did, I am completely convinced Barack Obama would not have been elected President. :smile: I’m willing to forgo one time for the historical aspects of the 2008 vote, and concerning the horrid set of candidates, somebody had to win. What I won’t excuse is the now transparently clear conclusion the man elected our current President is an abject failure in every regard. I would call Obama the reincarnation of Jimmy Carter, but Carter never posed a clear and present danger. Carter was simply incompetent and a cowardly – Obama is clearly malicious and without remorse.

    You took one word of my rant Anonymous and made a post of it, but my beef is not with mandates – it’s with failure, and the mind bending irrationality of believing if we only pour more money into a broken system, it will miraculously heal itself. Nothing could be further from the truth. And we’ve done that for the better part of thirty years now. If you want a suggestion, you can start fixing the problem by the immediate elimination of the Dept. of Education.

    The real purpose of my answer to you was that if your plan stands a chance of working, that you proponents of more funding should be grateful to me and my wife for still supporting the broken education system with our monies without complaint, pulling our children so others could benefit, allowing liberals to then derive and implement their plans, with us simply stepping out of the way.

    Problem is, IMO, you forgot in that equation you were losing many of the best parents too, as they simply found another way – one not subjected to incompetent bureaucrats and rotten parents. So you can throw all the money to the winds of waste, but if the student not adequately prepared, both scholastically and mannerly, then (excuse all the cliches) all the money in the world won’t fix your problems.

    “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” –Stephen F. Roberts

    No, Mr. Roberts, I do not, nor will I ever call myself an “atheist”, for I know better.

    We can debate who that Creator is, as that is a fair question and one worthy of debate. But to witness there is a creation, but to conclude there is no creator, is the height of irrationality ~ Wayne Perram (Tex Taylor)

    That is, unless you can prove to me Mr. Roberts out of the countless opinions concerning every subject, there is never one called truth.

  612. Warren,
    This is fun and I appreciate your taking me seriously. I truly believe that with honest, rational, debate, we all benefit.

    A couple of quick things

    >I would be that number is significantly more than the federal system you espouse would >currently mandate.

    I have been calling for the removal of federal mandates, I feel like you have a notion of what you think my viewpoint is and read between the lines to support this notion.

    “By stripping away mandated testing we give the teachers more time to actually teach and the freedom to try new ideas and techniques.”

    “I do not think it should be mandated top down but teachers and schools need the freedom to incorporate new methodologies.”

    To my ear it does not sound like I am calling for federal mandates, but for local freedom to work on finding ways to improve.

    I do have a fundamental belief that the nation needs strong public schools and that this is a goal that we need to work towards and that using public funds for private schools is the wrong approach.

    Thank you for paying your taxes even though your children did not attend public school. I also paid into the system without having any children using the public school. I think we both understand how we benefit from the education of others and wish to find the best return on the dollars spent. I believe that there is a lot of common ground and constructive problem solving.

    Don’t use the persecuted christian majority argument, the nation is very christian dominated in the population and the government. Really.

    If it helps, I believe that religion should be taught in the public schools. Not in science classes but I think that it is a powerful thread to pull together literature, art, history and culture. Perhaps a comparative religion class would help us understand the broader world and why our secular government is superior to theocratic governments. However I do not think that religious training belongs in the public schools.

    I do not believe that school prayer should be promoted, but silent personal prayer is fine and I would assume if the student really believes in its importance that can be an acceptable way of doing so.

    I will even let go of my belief that active classroom prayer not be part of the curriculum as long as my belief in equality is respected. If we are going to pray to one god, then we have to give equal time to all gods. After we give 60 seconds to 3000 or more religious deities and however many others we can come up with (such as the Doctor!) we can move on with the rest of the school day.

    “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” –Stephen F. Roberts

  613. Wayne –

    Interesting that, when I went back for my EE degree, I had a horrible time with the advanced EE classes, but the ME classes were cake. I had done ham radio and electronics my whole life but when it got into the theoretical stuff (electromagnetic fields, anyone?) it was awful. Just too far from reality.

    ChemE guys are awesome. They are prolly the smartest guys in the whole school. When I was in high school I stole sulphuric acid and nitric acid from the lab and tried to make some nitroglycerine. I had the acids and glycerine in separate bottles and tipped one into the other with a 200 foot string. I got lots of fumes but when I shot the bottle with a .22 nothing happened. I was just too much of a pussy to get close and do it right. My buddy and I made gunpowder and blew stuff up and made rockets, some of which actually flew rather than blowing all to hell on the launch pad. Those were the good old days; you’d go to jail today if you even went into a store and asked for saltpetre…

    More govt. We need more govt…

  614. Pfesser, other than the three weeks of astrophysics I was taught (neophyte at best), I thought electromagnetism was the most interesting concept in all of physics – and while beautifully simplistic at its core, potentially the most confusing to really understand. It was one of those topics I could answer the questions correctly and still not sure I understood what the answer gave me. Tesla should be a household name like Einstein if life were fair.

    I told somebody once the beauty of practicality: I could probably talk right over the electricians head about electron drift, but might be incapable of wiring my entire house. :smile: I have a healthy respect for current, as a 110 reminded me recently.

    I bet I would have made a more capable chemical than electrical engineer. I’ll never know as I was and foremost a juvenile delinquent – but if I had it to do over again, engineer is what I would choose.

    Too bad we don’t get mulligans in life.

  615. Re: Bloom box.

    Disclaimer right up front. I am not an expert, or even well-read, on the technology. As I understand it, the inventor has developed a membrane coating that will allow many different types of combustion products to be passed over it and the heat directly generates the power. It is DC of course – like a battery – so it has to be converted to AC for use. That was a major problem in the past, necessitating use of “dynamotors” – a motor and generator on the same shaft. I had one of those out of a WWII bomber for a while. It would shock the piss out of you.

    But I digress. Nowadays there has been developed incredibly powerful technology that allows electronic conversion directly from DC (Bloom Box) to AC. Three-phase AC was invented by Tesla, of course, and is probably the most important invention in power transmission ever known. Look at the power lines. There will be either three or four, depending on delta or wye configuration, but the important point is that industrial applications depend on three phase power. It allows, for example, a motor to be reversed by switching any two leads to the power line. Any two. It also allows complete speed control by simply varying the frequency. I can’t overemphasize its importance, but up to now there was simply no way to put it in a car.

    Fast forward. Nowadays there are controllers so small that gasoline model aeroplanes are nearly a thing of the past, since electric motors are so small and powerful – and there are also controllers as well that are big enough to run a factory! I know you have to be a geek to really love this stuff, but I truly do.

    So to answer your question, the output from the Bloom Box as I understand it is DC, which is now trivial to convert to AC – which lets you step the voltages up and down and a myriad of other magic.

    It is also quite expensive, but I don’t know how much. But think about it: if you can eliminate the boiler, the water, the turbine you have saved a hell of a lot of money right there, too, so I think it will eventually be far cheaper.

  616. FYI Anonymous – I’m a non-believer too, and even though Wayne and I go ’round and ’round about it, we still get our ideas exchanged and have a grudging respect for each other, so keep plugging. He’s a hard-ass most of the time but he THINKS, which I appreciate. We (and I think I speak for most, anyway) DO want to hear what you have to say.

  617. Pfesser, I just heard about this bloom box for the first time the other night. It is one of the best ideas I have read in quite some time.

    In theory, its usage makes sense because of the simple fact of transmission loss and the fact supply could more effectively meet demand. A/C is one of the marvels of the universe, but does have its limitations, storage being the biggest one.

    I thought I understood that the current “drawback” was the initial cost of purchase. Did I understand that right?

  618. :oops: be should be “bet” from above.

  619. Anonymous,

    Since you appear to be a serious person, I will give you a serious response. Your comment one that deserves a more serious response than I have time right now. I will address each of your questions/comments when the time is available. And I don’t necessarily believe everything you posted in that last response wrong – there are issues of discussion and issues of division.

    However…

    I am also confused by the argument that spending more on education (and again I am not advocating spending more for doing the same things that are not working) but that your children got a good education via spending a lot of money on a private school.

    Again, I think your premise of more money makes better schools based on a false dichotomy. The allocation per student at most private schools is less than the average per pupil outlay at a public school. If my children’s school is an indicator, the teachers make on average less (about 95% if memory serves) than do their public school counterparts, do teach by the lecture method, and still the school is continually ranked as “one of the best”. I believe money has little to do with it. It’s the quality of the parent, administration, and staff that separates. The school does have the advantage of assuring teachers are in charge, and if the parent and/or child chooses not obey the rules, they are dismissed from the school, with a waiting list of willing parents and students to take their place. It was my observation that the school very much like the discipline and curriculum of a public school system of 40-50 years ago where teachers and the principle make the rules and parents are actively involved in the curriculum.

    Here I think we get to the crux of the matter; from your statement it appears that you are in favor of spending more on your children’s education but do not support spending any more to educate other children.

    No, my statement is proof that allocation of scare financial resources is not the problem – the problem is the system, more specifically the bad parenting and bloated administration, including the meddling federal government regulation. Pfessers excellent comment above demonstrated these changes and facts well.

    Actually, people like you that are in favor of more money for public education should thank me. Both my wife and I paid thousands of dollars in property tax and continue to do so, without the benefit of recouping any direct benefit for our children. Being that millions of parents have removed their children from the public school system, if your theory of more money per student and teacher held, the results should have followed accordingly – they have not. In my sixth grade class from 1971, I pulled the yearbook out last year and counted the number of students. There were 41 – and I received an excellent K-6 education. I would be that number is significantly more than the federal system you espouse would currently mandate.

    I think what you progressives, especially you irreligious progressives (magic), fail to admit is that for all practical purposes, you ran parents like me off with your hostility to our basic tenets and desires. We’ve been laughed at and treated as buffoons, our faith dismissed, our intelligence questioned, our methods mocked. So we created our own schools, or chose to educate our children by ourselves at home on our own dime – you didn’t pay a cent, and more, we were not excused from the burden of paying for public education and continue to pay more each year. And yet, for the most part, our children have left your children in the dust with respect to scoring and college preparation.

  620. Anonymous –
    Have you read “Hot, Flat and Crowded” by Tom Friedman? His take is that electricity is the ultimate common currency of energy and that conversion to electric cars is the way to go. I actually have a little expertise in the electrical trade, and all the components necessary for real electric cars have fallen into place except energy storage. Electric motors have become incredibly efficient and have a very high power density (horsepower/pound) nowadays, largely thanks to the development of extremely powerful permanent magnets. In order to avoid having to use brushes in the motors and their attendant maintenance issues, three-phase brushless motors are necessary, but they only work on three phase AC – two problems, actually. But, technology to the rescue – there are now available high-power solid-state controllers that generate 3-ph AC, allowing the use of these extremely powerful, light and highly controllable motors – all the while allowing them to operate in reverse when braking is needed – feeding that energy back into the system. Of course the one thing we do not have is suitable energy storage – maybe batteries, maybe something else.

    As for the generation of energy, I have become fascinated by the Bloom Box. Google it up – that’s interesting really, since much of Google’s power comes from these. They convert fossil fuels directly into electricity, unlike the “old” process of: burn the fuel, boil the water, spin the turbine, spin the generator. A truly amazing technology.

    Thoughts?

    Good stuff. I am SOOOOOOO tired of arguing the same politics; it is good to FINALLY get on a topic that is interesting.

  621. James,

    Thank you and good luck.

  622. Thank you PFessor and Wayne. We do feel as the mouse in the cartoon does. It is funny. .

    KFAB.com or something like that can be googled. You can hear the morning discussion of the flood. All of that water will eventually reach the Gulf coast. If this lasts as long as guessed, economic consequences will spread to more than the affected area.

    I hope you stay, anonymous. Right now, I am too preoccupied react to what you wrote. I do agree with many of your thoughts about ethanol, etc.. Switch grass is one alternative to corn. Of course, using corn helps us since our farm sells corn.

  623. Wayne,
    I think we have different definitions of “unmitigated disaster” and I certainly did not wish to imply that there is not a spectrum of teaching talent from very bad to excellent. And in my defense of the debate of ideas much of my discussion dealt with problems in how standardized testing is a poor approach (even though it has good intentions) due to the human nature to focus energy on the metric that defines success (particularly if your job is on the line). This is not the teacher’s fault these rules have been put in place it is our response to a serious problem, I think it was the wrong response and that we need to change it. In the debate of ideas I suggested revamping the approach to learning/teaching to a model based on applied activities. This is a radical change and as I am concerned with unintended consequences (as we have seen with standardized testing) I do not think it should be mandated top down but teachers and schools need the freedom to incorporate new methodologies.

    The type of model I am referring to is outlined in Neal Bascomb’s book “The New Cool: A Visionary Teacher, His FIRST Robotics Team, and the Ultimate Battle of Smarts” and he was on The Diane Rehm show and the podcast is available (http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2011-03-03/neal-bascomb-new-cool). There is a growing body of evidence that indicates that our traditional teaching model (lecture based instruction) is not how children naturally learn the best and can change learning from natural human development to painful process that many kids dislike. By stripping away mandated testing we give the teachers more time to actually teach and the freedom to try new ideas and techniques.

    Pointing out that more money is spent on schools that do poorly is a bit of a cart and horse issue that I think is a bit complicated and considering baseline resources is part of the equation. I am not stating that merely spending more money automatically equates to improved outcomes, that is ludicrous.

    I do find it interesting that I am insulting the great teachers in this unmitigated disaster of public schools by suggesting that better salaries can attract better employees and suggesting that treating teachers with professional respect is a good thing. I am, however, the radical.

    I am also confused by the argument that spending more on education (and again I am not advocating spending more for doing the same things that are not working) but that your children got a good education via spending a lot of money on a private school.

    Here I think we get to the crux of the matter; from your statement it appears that you are in favor of spending more on your children’s education but do not support spending any more to educate other children. I think that public education is important to the nation as a whole and that I benefit from all children getting a good education and that this belief deserves my financial support. I do not mind if you spend your private money on a private education, but I do not want my tax dollars taken out of public education and given to private schools. I also expect you to still pay your taxes towards public schools even though you are not using them because you receive a benefit from other peoples’ children being educated. Sort of like the idea that a rising tide lifts all boats.

    Please note that I never mentioned hydrogen, you are that correct developing this infrastructure is pointless and expensive and hydrogen is not an available resource to use for fuel but merely an energy storage medium. And yes we still will be using fossil fuels as we transition, but we have known that we would need to change our energy source away from fossil fuels for at least 30 years now and I keep hearing people say that we do not have to get serious about changing because we still have some fossil fuels left underground. I do not think we should wait until there is nothing left before we get serious about changing.

    Electric cars do make sense as the infrastructure is already largely in place, the equivalent “gas-mileage” or the amount of fossil fuel needing to be burned per mile driven is significantly greater. It is also easier to control pollution from a few power plants than from thousands of cars. In order to meet peak demands power-plants must have capacity above what is used during the non-peak times.

    I think that the Chevy Volt is really a move in the right direction as traditional hybrids have dual drive-trains that are needlessly complicated and the Volt’s fuel powered engine can be upgraded if mythical fuel cells ever come on-line, but can also be replaced with stirling or other more fuel efficient engines.

    Yes recent events have pushed back the likelihood of increasing nuclear power, humans are poor at cost/benefit/risk analysis. A few days ago on NPR they interviewed a representative from a company developing smaller, modular nuclear power plants that offered the possibility of more built in safety features and a lower initial start up cost as utilities can start with one or two and add on over time. This is an interesting option, but it still must overcome basic human fear.

    As far as fusion goes I guess I just have more confidence in American ingenuity than you do. Now that the hoopla over “cold-fusion” has died down more effort can be devoted to the hard work of developing real fusion. It is 50 to 100 years away but I think, if we put in the time and money, the engineering issues will be solved. It is not like we do not understand how it works, it is just difficult to do it without a huge ball of hydrogen gas.

    Bio-fuel effectiveness depends on how it is done. Ethanol is a waste of energy, at least in the corn sense, but using current agricultural waste material should be used. Even if you just burn it it is carbon neutral. I grew up in a house that was heated with waste sawdust from the local sawmill, it was a burner and boiler system that we had to import from Europe (Finland I think, but it has been 30 years…) We then built a similar, but much larger unit (that could be filled with a front-end loader instead of buckets!) to heat a large business space. I realize this is atypical but it was simple and effective and the sawmill was thrilled to get rid of a waste product.

    As far as ethanol goes there is some promising research with micro-organisms being pursued, which ties in with why I think that we need to fund research. I tried to be honest and tie it to a revenue stream with carbon tax, because it is too easy to just say that we should spend money on research. Will this raise the cost of goods and services? Yes, but it will also encourage conservation and innovation. And it is indicative of who we want to be, what are our values? Is it worth 3% to control our own energy source and to cut the amount of pollution that we put into the atmosphere (which I think of as a public resource because I have a vested interest in breathing and assume that others do as well)? Again this is a cost/benefit analysis tempered with the planet that we want to leave to future generations (I actually joke that since I do not have children I can use as many natural resources as I want).

    An energy source that that holds promise, that does not need new technology is deep well, or hot rock geothermal. There are many places where standard oil well depth gets hot enough to vaporize water and the idea is to drill two holes close together, one to send water down and the other for the resulting steam to come up that turns a standard steam turbine generator and the water is condensed and used again in a loop. A test plant was being built in the western US and should be testing soon. I expect there to be bugs in the system to work out, but there is no new technology needed. Why is spending money on tar sands better than spending money on a project like this?

    Thank you for acknowledging that I am attempting to discuss ideas and actions and not just whine. I do think you need to find some smarter progressive friends to debate with, because as a nation these are conversations that need to take place. We have finite resources (as in money) and need to find effective ways to direct these funds for the maximum benefit. The current very partisan atmosphere is hurting the nation, instead of working together (and hammering out compromises and promoting experiments than can be failures without political gamesmanship) we are splintering apart.

  624. Here you go, James. This is you and your family vs the flood.

  625. If there’s ever been a testimony of the false promises of more big government and its natural evolution of entitlement, contrasting people like James and his family versus that sorry, pathetic affair in New Orleans after Katrina should put any argument to rest for the direction our country should take.

    James, I much admire your attitude. I never completely lose faith in America as long as guys like you are around, and I wish I could help. If I was anywhere in proximity, I certainly would. You deserve it.

  626. Thanks PFessor.

    Our mail carrier stopped to visit with my wife as my wife finished the last of our sand bagging effort. She said she will deliver the mail as long as she can. Our local post office is trying to persuade the head office to move it to to a town in the hills as several other offices have done, so carriers can continue their work if the worst happens. Her main problem is knowing who is still home and who is not. So many people are gone now.

    To show how twisted we are, I was mowing the lawn at the time of the visit.

    A South Dakota man said “None of us will be sitting on our roof’s with ‘Help Us” signs.

  627. neighbors’ not neighbor’s

  628. I like Jehovah’s Witnesses. I like to debate them. After I asked about Lilith, Adam’s first wife, and said Easter lilies are in her memory, they quit coming.

  629. James –

    You and your family are one tough bunch of sonsofbitches. When I think back to Katrina and the shenanigans that went on there it makes me want to vomit. What’s the matter with you? Why aren’t you looting your neighbor’s houses? Most of them are empty, I’m sure.

    Maybe being raised in a culture of self-sufficiency rather than dependency on the govt had something to do with it…?

    Nah, I’m probably wrong.

    The offer to help you find a farm here in VA and help you move still holds. Every county and parish in the country should be vying for a family like yours.

  630. PFessor, Sarah Palin is a smart woman. I think she learned the Paul Revere story on her own, perhaps on her tour. She was not absolutely right, but she was closer to the truth than the Longfellow version most of us learned in school. Now, a battle of the Paul Revere stories rages in Wickopedia.

    Honolulu Sally, our children were both honor students because we knew they would need scholarships to pay for college. Our daughter was unloading corn at 11:45 PM and doing her home work in an old tractor with no working light in the cab. A large flashlight aimed at the ceiling provided light.

    After I unloaded the combine, I checked on her. She had open books spread around the cab, and she was writing something. I asked “how are you doing?” in my most jovial voice. She replied :=”&&&&&&&&!!!!!!” It was the first time she had sworn around me. I was so proud. Heh Heh.

    Our daughter earned 4 point average when she got her MA with thesis at the University of Nebraska while she worked an a bank and had an assistanceship. Though she is still in her twenties, she is manager of a branch of the therapy company which employees her. Our daughter is also the lead therapist. She worries about us and calls every day to be sure we don’t wait to long to leave for her house.

    Our local school gave our children and their classmates a fine education because of a confluence of stellor teachers and parental learning ethic. Our son’s class was so damaged by the eighties farm depression, they implemented their own No Child Left Behind. They decided education was their only way out, and if one made it, they all made it. They didn’t all like each other, but they worked together and became their own clique.

    Our son’s class earned the largest amount of scholarship money in the school’s history, and 2/3 of the class belonged to the National Honor Society. Theirs was the only class to drive to Council Bluffs at 5AM to have a good bye breakfast on their last day of school.

    Things fell apart after the class went its separate ways. After our son graduated from college he attended the high school graduation class of the younger brother of one of his classmates who had also graduated from college. The first thing she said to our son was “Not many of us made it did we?”

    Our daughter’s class copied our son’s. Many of the young people who initially failed didn’t give up. They returned to college or other schools in their mid twenties.

    My wife retired from our local school this month. Over half of the teachers were once her students. Five of them congratulated her for leaving because they wish they could too. She says it is not the school she taught in as recently as five years ago.

    However, our children’s classmates and others have shown that student’s and their families attitudes and values are as important as the quality of teachers and schools they attend.

    If you read the archives, you will find many slurs cast at those of us with contrary views.

    Jean has insulted me and others plenty of times. Last August, she organized an election to vote me off the site. Of course, it was only symbolic and humorous, but still…I only throw slurs at her if she does to me.

    Jsri had an Emily Letitia moment when he owed me a “never mind” after casting slurs based on something he assumed without reading what I had written. So, if some of us assume we are being attacked when we are not, we have a history.

    Time is running out. Our main escape route, I 29 will be closed in a few days, and it may be flooded through the fall. We have two other options through the hills east of us. No one knows what will happen, including how high the water will be. The Corps of Engineers hint they will release even more water than planned. The long-term future of our school is also in question.

  631. Honolulu Sally – Re: Jehovah’s Witness protection schemes

    When I was in residency I used to tell the Witnesses that if they needed blood I was going to give it to them, no matter what their wishes – that they weren’t going to tie my hands so that I had to watch them die.

    It worked perfectly. They always transferred to another service.

    At home: I learned this from a friend. When they knock, go over to the door, open it a crack and show one eyeball. “Yes?” “We’re from the Jehovah’s Witnesses…yada yada.”

    “I can’t talk to you. I am in the Federal Jehovah’s Witness Protection Program.”

    And close the door.

  632. Here is what we need

  633. Interesting Pfesser. I would be interested in hearing your observations as parent and school board member, because I respect the viewpoint, even if you’re a pagan. :smile:

    One short one. I have two friends, public school teachers until they retired within the last two years – both tell their younger teachers to take less money and get out of public school system. They’re trapped between idiot administrators and threatening students, with parents and attorneys as backup..

    Both hated it.

    Both my children received wonderful educations in private Catholic schools – but mom and dad paid more for their K-12 education than they would two private college educations. However, I still feel it was the best investment we made as parents. College has been a breeze for both, and though their mammy is an incredibly smart lady who passed on her genes, the school played the largest part of it. Dad’s responsibility was to listen to mom – and he did.

  634. Bravo, Anonymous.

    Noah, maybe I’ll see you later in another future M&H post. I feel like I have taken up too much space lately and I have been neglecting paying bills and doing my duties, both personal and business.

    Keep learning. If a Jehovah’s Witness ever comes knocking on your door, ask if they have an extra copy of their “Family Happiness” book. Although I don’t like much of what that religion teaches, I did like that book. Hopefully they just bring you the book the next time and don’t see you over and over. My husband is a Witness now and that was the first gift he gave me 33 years ago when we began dating.

    Aloha, Namaste, Peace.

    Sally

  635. My bad. Should be 33,000 kids down to 13,000, not 3300 and 1300.

  636. Great discussion!

    I would like to offer my observations from three sides of the school system – first as a student, from K-12, then after graduate school as a school board member and as a parent in the same school system later on.

    All of this is in the coalfields of West Virginia. As a grade school student I found the system clean, efficient and very effective. There was a definite hierarchy, with the principal at the top. Mr. B_______ had been a schoolteacher in the ‘forties; he wore a coat and tie and was always referred to as Mr. B_______. The teachers referred to each other (at school, anyway) as Miss or Mrs. _________. There was one janitor and the school was VERY clean. A school bus driver coached softball during the last period, but after a science test the 7th and 8th grade team was decimated for two weeks as the pupils, as they were called then, worked on remediating their tests until the science teacher was satisfied. There was no question who held the trump card; it was the teacher, not the coach. The kids had no question either: If you bucked up against a teacher you would always lose; if you pushed it very hard she would paddle your ass or get Mr. B_____ to do it. I found out the hard way. By God it hurt. I didn’t need a second dose.

    High school was chaos. There was absolutely no order. I had to buddy up with a friend to watch each other’s backs lest one of the seniors put our head out the window and close it. (That was their idea of fun.) We tested in this system every three years; from 6th grade in one school to 12th in the other my national (yes, national – even poor kids in good schools can do just fine) ranking fell from 97th percentile to 50th. I still have the scorecards.

    Fast forward fifteen years. I have returned home, run for and won a seat on the school board. A Nation At Risk has been published.

    I am amazed at the chaos. The Service Worker’s Union has forced my little grade school to hire two janitors, a man and a woman (can’t discriminate, can we?) My old school is filthy. The two of them are caught f**king on school property but nothing can be done because the union threatens a discrimination lawsuit. A gay acquaintance of mine from years back has been hired as a civics teacher at my high school. This is the coalfields of WV; he not only has to fight the gay thing, he is utterly incapable of controlling the classroom and does not fare well. The kids set his wastebasket on fire; we send an “improvement team” of other teachers to evaluate him in preparation to fire his sorry ass. They present their report: he is a “highly effective teacher.” Chalk one up for union solidarity. I begin playing bluegrass and drinking liquor with the superintendent on weekends, who is a hell of a fine fella and no slouch of a singer, either. He tells me that he has about 100 pages of new regulations each month that he has to implement. The teachers are being encouraged by the Federal Government to classify kids as mentally retarded because the funding formula says they get triple federal dollars for retarded kids. And by the way, we look up the staffing from when I was a kid in the same system. They had in 1963: Superintendent, assistant superintendent, truant officer, secretary. Four people. At that time, 1985, they have over 100 people in the central office – and an entire division of it just for regulatory compliance. Oh and by the way: because of West Virginia’s perpetual recession, the school population has decreased from 3300 kids to 1300 in the same time frame. They have gone from four to over a hundred – in a 3/4 million dollar NEW building – to supervise a system with less than half the students.

    Later on the experience as a parent if anybody is interested

  637. Actually in some ways Anonymous, though not your intent, I found your post insulting to many great public school teachers, as your suggestion insinuated we didn’t already have qualified teachers. And though neither of my children ever attending one day of public education, our intent wasn’t to separate our children from the public school teachers, but the administration, government curriculum, and most importantly millions of rotten parents.

    I honestly don’t know how you can’t call public education a disaster. We rank second to last of industrialized countries in science and math testing, have spent billions to improve scores, yet as any higher education facility of any repute will tell you, remedial coursework is required for a majority of publicly educated students. There has been no direct correlation between per student spending and higher test scores. In fact, some of those public school systems receiving the greatest funding are also some of the worst: Detroit, Chicago, D.C.

    I will apologize for my initial shot across the bow. I have grown jaded to the typical brain dead liberal post here, tired of having to repeat these same points ad nauseam, and mistakenly threw you into the fray, where your post of quality didn’t belong. Mea culpa.

  638. While I’m here, I might as well answer some of the obvious shortcomings of Anonymous’ suggestions:

    Energy: A small carbon tax to act as an incentive to monitor carbon pollution and provide seed and research money for further development of renewable and long term energy production (i.e. nuclear, and eventually fusion).

    We already have a carbon tax. Are you aware that the federal and state governments already take in 5-7 times what a petroleum company makes off a gallon of finished product derived from crude oil? With gas now over $4.00 a gallon, how much do you propose to added and collected from an already inept, inefficient and bloated federal government that for three years hasn’t even been able to construct a budget? And then who do you propose received the “carbon tax” and divvy the pie to conduct the research? A Congressman that doesn’t have the sense to not send risque pictures of himself to strangers? Let me give you a heads up on subsidies from our illustrious federal government. The latest fad called “wind and solar” has received more than 100 times the subsidy per megawatt of energy produced than hydrocarbons and nuclear have.

    I won’t mention the trillions of dollars required to handle the logistics of “pumping hydrogen.” Where do you propose to get the capital to make the initial investment?

    The middle class is already having a difficult time affording to heat and cool their home. How much more should the typical consumer pay for heating oil or air conditioning when real unemployment is probably now well over 20%? Are you also aware that by taxing feedstocks (carbon credits), virtually every thing you purchase from consumer staples to plastics will also cost more and be passed to the consumer? Hyperinflation is right around the corner, if not already here in some capacities, and you want to add further burden?

    Whenever I hear people proclaiming the need to focus on 19th century solutions to our energy needs I hear people saying that they believe Americans are too stupid to come up with something better. The stone age did not end because we ran out of stones.

    Fusion has proven a pipe dream and even if possible in mass production, is years away from development. Hydrogen has problems of its own, is generally produced by steam or electrolysis, again powered by fossil fuels, and the fuel cells themselves would add approximately $100,000K to the price of the most basic car. Our needs are now. Electric cars are charged by coal driven powerplants. Biofuels cost more to produce than they provide in thermopower. Nuclear, while a reasonable alternative is probably shelved for another 30 years, due to the tsunami. And I wasn’t aware that stones had thermodynamic properties, unless baked by the sun.

    However, we have opportunities now to wean ourselves from all of the problems – it’s called tar sands and compressed natural gas – part of that 19th century technology that still overwhelmingly powers the 21st century. In fact, without it, our 21st century would quickly devolve back to about 1900.

    But like Pfesser, I do acknowledge that was a valid attempt at debate and discussion – a rarity here from the Left. A tip of the cap for a thought provoking post.

  639. Warren,
    Thanks for taking the time to reply in regards to my post. I am sorry I am only a talking memo.

    I agree with the need for better quality parents, but I do not feel like this is something for the government to address. At least not in any direct way, improving education will, in the long run possibly improve this a bit as the more educated the parents are the greater emphasis on the importance of education in the household.

    The pressures of a global economy are indeed greater now than in the 1950’s which acts as an indicator of how important innovation is to long-term prosperity. Phil McKinney, CTO of HP believes strongly in the emergence of a “creative economy” that will be equal, if not greater than the impact of the emergence of the ‘information economy.” And those information jobs can go overseas much more quickly and easily than manufacturing did so it behooves us to develop every advantage that we can.

    With other nations improving their institutes of higher learning it will become even harder for for the US to maintain our lead in innovation. If we lose this edge the future will be bleaker for us as a nation. I think that Americans are more innovative, on average, than other nations but this is a trait that must be encouraged.

    The tax rate comparison is meant to counter the automatic assumption that lower taxes lead to more jobs, an assumption that seems to be unsupported by current conditions. Can business be taxed too much? Of course they can, the question is finding a balance, which is why I suggested a tax rate close to the rate in the 1990’s when we had solid growth, good employment and a lower fed. income tax rate than under President Reagan as well as a lot of global competition. I do not remember this as a horrible time in US history. Maybe I was too busy running my own small business at the time to notice, it is possible, I was quite busy then

    Another aspect of comparing the time frames is the percentage of CEO pay to worker pay. This has increased dramatically in the last 2 decades

    I think you underestimate me when you declare that your arguments would fall on deaf ears, that is actually a bit insulting. If we are both rational (and I know that I am) we can discuss ideas even if we do not fully agree. I suspect that you want a prosperous, strong and safe nation. A nation that offers opportunity to all, but does ask for some level of helping out with the nation’s business. Debating the pros and cons of different ideas can lead to better ideas.

    For instance I do not see public education as an unmitigated disaster, but an area that shows our strength as a nation. The idea that every citizen is expected to receive an education, when we started this, it was not the norm.

    I do not understand why the argument that you get better quality of workers with higher salaries applies to business, to sports, to lawyers, to doctors to college professors but not to teachers. I know you think I am daft, but can you explain why that logic is so accepted in other fields but does not work in this environment. I also stated that professionalism should be raised, this refers to how we treat the profession, not only pay but respect.

    Honestly I do not remember when we had a carbon tax, universal service (military or other) when we decriminalized recreational drugs and focused our prison population on violent offenders. When we taxed churches or why we should not reduce buying energy from foreign sources. Why moving grade and secondary school education away from standardized testing where teachers everywhere are encouraged to “teach the test” is a bad thing. You say you can easily discredit every suggestion I made, that they have all been tried “in spades” and failed. I will listen, even if I do not agree, for one thing I do believe strongly in is the need for a civil society, one with dynamic discussions of ideas and not just yelling back and forth. I hope that I have maintained my own standards in this regard.

  640. Bingo! Global Economy makes financial history mundane. It’s a new world out there and people need a wake up call. Times have changed.

  641. Regressive is to return or revert, the opposite of progressive – to move forward or advocate for change. If you feel you are regressive, then this would be good advice.

    Not even honest in comparison – no wonder libs are hopeless. We aren’t talking math Sally – we are talking politics. The opposite of progressive is conservative. Would the opposite of heterosexual be appropriately labeled f*g or dyke? And I assume that the opposite of “teabagger” to be what? Progressive? What a joke. I have never read such blatant duplicity that I read here.

    There is one piece of advise this shyster and sham gave you Noah that she is absolutely correct, by accident of course.

    She’s not worth your time.

  642. Hi Noah,

    I read Jean’s last two posts again and couldn’t figure out how she was insulting you or your people (btw, who are your people?) The first post basically said that Clinton was also a douche bag for his infidelities and that might be a jumping off point of support for Weiner becoming President. This was more of a comment about the state of our morals rather than an insult.

    Then, in a post about education, she wrote, “Sitting around moaning, groaning and complaining in typical regressive fashion about how awful things are, doesn’t solve problems. I feel this and other similar educational ideas are progressive in getting the U.S. on track for the future. It will give our bright young people the incentives to succeed in innovative and productive lives not only for themselves but also for our country.

    jsri, it seems to me this is right up your alley! I know you have been quite generous with your time volunteering.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam.

    Auntie Jean”

    This, I thought was good general advice. Regressive is to return or revert, the opposite of progressive – to move forward or advocate for change. If you feel you are regressive, then this would be good advice.

    If you feel you are progressive, then regressive is the other folk who don’t want change.

    If her words upset you, scroll on by her posts. Easy to do. I am having a much more pleasant read this way since I have decided to disregard what disparages me IMHO.

    btw, Anonymous (popular name), I like what is at the top of your head! I also like the way you do not provoke and just say what you feel are important issues. We think alike, on many of the points.

    Aloha ka kou,

    Sally

  643. Public Spending. I am in 100% agreement with you on the war on drugs. It cannot be won as it is now. If you can’t beat it, control it, own it.

    Civic Duty. I have a friend from Spain. He told me after high school he was required to perform 2 years of military service. I would love to see something like that instituted in this country. 1-2 years of either military or some form of public service, build some character and maybe give them some interest and ownership of this country and their community.

  644. Anonymous, great post, it is about time some glimmer of hope came from the left.

    On Energy. We need more work done in the area of renewable and alternative sources of energy, and we need it in a big hurry. I am for massive expansion of our nuclear plants as well as refining our current renewables to make them more viable.

    Education. I have long been a proponent that teachers should be one of the highest paid positions in our nation. We need to give our best and brightest a reason to want to teach. However the current system needs to be overhauled in a major way. I do think high pay will lead to competition for teaching jobs and I think that will do a lot to raise the bar, but to do that we need far greater accountability systems in place.

    Agree with your point on Churches 100%

    Research, I am with you as well on that.

    Economy. I agree, spending so much on foreign oil hurts us in many ways. We need to drill more and exploit what resources we have at home while researching and leading the way to alternative sources of fuel.

    I argued in my business ethics class that business has a fiduciary responsibility to their community, because without the resources of the community around them most would not be able to be in business. However, in reality it does not seem to work that way. Their responsibilities seem only to be to their investors. There “should” be some balance and contribution but at the end of the day a business typically is there to make money, and there is nothing wrong with making money mind you. When people invest money they deserve to get the most return on that investment. To force morality on a business would be akin to a dictatorship type rule so the only thing I can see is to incentivize them somehow to do their part in the community.

    I think Republicans need to look further ahead when it comes to conservation of our planet, and do things that have long term positive effects. Liberals have to come way off the green peace wagon and not worry about every minute form of life. There is middle ground we can live by, but to achieve a lot of your goals you listed, Liberals are going to have to ease up and we need to start using what we can get our hands on here at home.

    To the other Libs, you were just shown how its done, read, learn, and implement.

  645. Anonymous –

    Well thought-out arguments. Some I agree with, some not – but no matter. You made the effort, instead of sniping from the sidelines. Kudos.

    Anybody else want to give it a try?

  646. Anonymous,

    Wonderful talking points from the Leftist Talking Memo. Most of all those suggestions you made have been tried in spades, and all have failed. For instance, we have poured money into education and it has been an unmitigated disaster. The solution is not higher teacher pay, but a better quality parent. Good luck…

    I could refute virtually every one of those points you made easily, but it would fall on deaf ears. So I’ll just make one point. You progressives keep reverting back to the tax rate of the 40s and 50s. And while I’m sure your facts true about higher tax rates, what you fail to understand was that there was no “global economy” in the 40s and 50s, and the rest of taxes and fees were substantially less – our collective tax rates when all things considered has never been higher, partially explaining why the middle class is being squeezed. Your comparison of mid 20th century is at best wrong headed and more specifically specious.

  647. I just stumbled across this blog and saw some challenge about progressive ideas. I have yet to track down the original post, as I have concerns about getting sidetracked and not getting back to the challenge for ideas. So if I misunderstand what is desired I apologize up front.

    Energy: A small carbon tax to act as an incentive to monitor carbon pollution and provide seed and research money for further development of renewable and long term energy production (i.e. nuclear, and eventually fusion). Whenever I hear people proclaiming the need to focus on 19th century solutions to our energy needs I hear people saying that they believe Americans are too stupid to come up with something better. The stone age did not end because we ran out of stones.

    Education: What we value is what we are willing to spend money on. The teaching profession needs to be raised once again to the status of a respected professional. The right is always claiming that CEOs must be worth the huge bonuses that they get, in order for the companies to get the best people. Same argument, if you want good teachers you need to offer good pay. Instead of merely demonizing teachers we must offer additional support and training/mentoring to them. Someone recently wrote about how instead of blaming our soldiers when a strategy does not work we look to officers and to making certain the soldiers have what they need to succeed.

    Student achievement measures need to be changed. Teaching to a test is a poor way to educate, particularly when we need students who can apply critical thinking skills, not rote answers. Thought should be given to a task based learning system where children learn by being given actual problems to work on and taking a cross-disciplinary approach, not teaching subjects in a vacuum in highly structured subjects. Help kids learn how to learn.

    Public spending: Stop the war on drugs, it costs too much to build and staff the prisons for many of the non-violent inmates. Learn from prohibition, legalize and tax. This does not mean people will be free to endanger others, just as you cannot legally drive drunk you cannot legally drive high. Divert money from prisons to schools (again; what do we value?)

    Taxation: The highest bracket of federal income tax in the 1950’s was 70% and we remember the great recession of the economy in this country then. The wealthy can contribute a few percent more to the nation, highest rate of 40% perhaps. They are getting great rewards from citizenship it is fair to have them give back more.

    I also find it interesting the argument that lower taxes means more job development. Given the nature of tax write-offs it would seem that higher tax rate would encourage more investment and less hoarding of cash. I grew up in a family business and we were always quite aware of the notion of spending down some profit to lower the tax burden.

    Civic duty: All classes need “skin in the game” of service to nation, I think forcing military service upon all would be too much, but a spectrum of civic services options should be required for a short term of service (1 year).

    Churches should be required to meet the same non-profit status as other secular non-profits in order to get the tax breaks. If they do not meet the same standards they do not get the same benefits, even if they do believe in magic.

    Research: What kind of a nation do we want to be? We need to be the leader in innovation to be the leader in the world. Do we want US space-station travel to be on Russian rockets? Are we satisfied that the worlds fastest airplane is from the 1960’s?

    It seems like some on the right misunderstood the president’s use of the phrase Sputnik moment. It was the wake-up call that we were falling behind and needed to put real effort into catching up and surpassing the USSR in the space race. I remember people at the time complaining about the cost, but the long-term economic boon created has transformed the world.

    Economy: I view our current habits in energy consumption and importing goods to be akin to exporting money out of the country. Again revamping our energy policy to keep those dollars here is a good thing. American corporations should have some patriotic back-bone and decide that it is worth a few percent to employ Americans at a good wage, stockholder profit should not be the only metric of success. Likewise consumers should consider the worth of spending a bit more on US produced goods. This really has no policy application, but is just my opinion. Showing how patriotic you are by flying a flag made in China seems counter-productive to me.

    A few thoughts off the top of my head.

  648. Sally, you do for you however you see fit. I have no problem how you chose to conduct your life or the choices you make, they are yours to make. Jean goes out of her way to be insulting to what I consider to be my people. She doesn’t offer an even handed approach and she is not here to have a conversation. She is here to present a slanted point of view based on little facts with little other intent than to be hurtful and crass. When you post on here, you open up yourself to scrutiny, so you either grow a thick skin, or you better be able to validate your opinion..

    Most of the time Jean makes one outlandish statement after another and chose to neither respond or offer up rebuttal to her, unique, way of thinking. Since she chooses not to engage me and mine and allow us an opportunity to defend ourselves, I feel I have every right to treat her as she treats us. As with you, if she chooses to engage in fair and equitable discussions, I will be happy to instantly return the favor. She wants to be nasty, I’ll give it back to her in spades. Treat others as you wish to be treated.

  649. Sally, with all due respect to that sappy post to Noah, when some dingbat likes to refer to “regressives”, “teabaggers”, “Creationists”, or a host of other pejoratives used to here to refer to Conservatives, Tea Party activists, Republicans, even Libertarians, then I think at best you apply a gigantic double standard in your determination of right and wrong.

    Perhaps you should tell Auntie Jean or your other “sistas” to clean up their own house first, then perhaps we can talk more civilly. Frankly, your comment makes little sense at a blog like this whose very objective is to be humorously offensive. Grandma’s comments are anything but milquetoast.

    Personally, I don’t think you have a problem with derogatory remarks, as long as the remarks apply to the right people.

  650. Sistah Jean,

    You know how strongly I feel about public schools here in Hawaii. The last time I saw a ranking by States, Hawaii was pretty far down the list.

    President Obama attended one of the best private schools in Hawaii, Punahou, on full scholarship as a youth since his parents/grandparents were not affluent. I haven’t looked up private school rankings, but I believe Punahou is up there near or at the top.

    As a public school parent, I “hated” Punahou. The rich kids went there, snobs (imho) went there. They had the best athletes, the best facilities, and the school turned out the entrepreneurs and the innovators of Hawaii and beyond. Punahou offered a great education.

    Although it is true that it is up to the individual child to get the most out of his or her education, having a great primary and secondary education gives them a huge advantage. Having a great education in an school like Punahou but being of the poorer class and being a minority of Black descent (probably only 5 in the entire school) builds character.

    President Bush’s “No Child Left Behind” was one of the worst programs ever implemented, and our Superintendent of Education and our Department of Education were all for it and thus began an even faster descent of the education of the Hawaii kids.

    What it did was further the dumbing down of our kids in public schools and increased the gap of quality of education between public and private schools here.

    We need programs that will engage our young people and make them smarter and more productive in the sciences. I’ll have my teacher daughter check out the ScientificAmerican link. (mahalo!)

    I over heard a man from China talking to a seat mate about the US’s low ranking that you mentioned. However, what he also said was that even though countries like China rank higher, America is still the country that has the innovators, the imagination, the inventors.

    There is hope for us, and the biggest of the reasons I voted for President Obama was of his education, and his background. The public educational system in Hawaii is going through change with his “Race for the Top” and other programs that I am not aware of.

    It almost makes me wish I still had a kid in school to see the changes. Almost, but not really since life is so much simpler now with grown kids out of the house.

    Aloha,

    Sally

  651. James,

    In the “old” days, less people were employees,and more people worked for themselves. Farmers are of that old stock of hard work and getting hands dirty. Teenagers then weren’t called teenagers or didn’t behave like the teenagers of today. They were considered workers in the family. Congrats for living the life you do, with internet access of course!

    Noah,

    You have been very decent and civil in your discourse with me, and I appreciate that. You want to make a point, and I want to make a point. We both can possibly learn from each other.

    This is a very local thing here, and right or wrong, it is part of my culture:

    Through the years in this parlor, Auntie Jean has become a friend to me. She is like my Hawaiian sistah.

    So, if you bash a friend of mine, I don’t like it. You don’t really know Jean or appreciate the experience and knowledge she brings to this place. We are not in a round table debate and the focus of the debate has to be on whatever or whoever deems most worthwhile. It’s an open mike (mic) – or seems to be by liberal nature of H&M.

    Since I have just recently set my own personal policy of scrolling past those that insult me or put me down, my reading time on the comments section is much more efficient and pleasant now. It is like fast forwarding when the person with the mic is IMHO a blowhard, insulting, full of themselves, and rude. Am I really missing out on anything substantive? It really doesn’t matter to me – I am not here to solve the nation’s problems as others “know” how to do. I’m here for diversion and enjoyment, catching up with friends, sharing pie.

    I don’t have thick skin. I don’t like to fight unnecessarily. I feel that I don’t have to prove how much I know or what I believe. I have come to “know” many of the regulars that post, and consider them friends. I am discriminatory in my associations.

    Does that make me wrong and stupid? Maybe to some people, but those people don’t matter to me. I come here to get away from the daily mundane and sometimes pressing activities of our businesses. I really shouldn’t be spending so much time here, but during certain seasons, I do.

    So Noah, take this for what it is, and we’ll see how this affects our recent interactions. I am asking you not to insult my friends. If you don’t like what or how they write, don’t read them and get upset. Scroll on past their posts. I don’t have a list of DNI (do not insult) friends, but it is probably 90% of the contributors.

    If that is something you cannot do, I understand. About a week or so ago, you answered the question “why are you here when you could be anywhere else?”. I was impressed with your answer, and the decency began. I would read through your posts, and then read again so I understood your point, and I took time to respond to you.

    If you keep it honest and decent without insult or derision, we can have a conversation. Insult my friends – I’ll scroll on by your name and save myself a lot of time.

    I’m not making the rules for this blogsite. Those are just my own criteria for associations, with the exception of UAW. What others do is their own business.

    If this ends our association, so be it. Before that happens, please accept my handshake, and best wishes for a wonderful life with your beautiful family.

    Aloha and Namaste,

    Sally

  652. Noah, in military terms, I think they would call this a rout. Nice going.

    I do believe you are right.

  653. James – I saw that. I probably should offer Palin supporters an apology for raking her over the coals, except I am at least 99 & 44/100% sure it was an absolute fluke or a setup by Palin’s handlers.

    At the risk of being called Lori Jr., I offer the following: Romney ahead of Obama by 49/46%. Hmmmm…they call it a statistical dead heat, so I guess it is.

    http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2011/06/obama-and-romney-in-dead-heat-poll-says/1

  654. An NPR station asked on “All things Considered” How accurate were Palin’s Paul Revere Comments?” Professor Robert Allison of Suffolk University told the interviewer, Melissa Block that Palin basically got it right. Block didn’t expect his answer, and she asked if other historians thought he was being too charitable toward Sarah Palin.

    Allison said Sarah Palin is a lightning rod and the professor has organized many events featuring Paul Revere without national attention. ” Sarah Palin comes to town, makes a comment on what she learned and suddenly, you’re calling me to find out what I think of the American Revolution.”
    \
    This is a small matter, but it is one more illustration of how the reporters and politicians twist facts to fit their agendas. The Washington Post story shows another example.

  655. Crickets.

    Noah, in military terms, I think they would call this a rout. Nice going.

  656. that should read short sighted, note sited

  657. PFesser “Dad, I just used “devotion” in a sentence as an example and the class went “woahhh big word”… It’s scary how illiterate people are here.

    It is funny your should mention that. I was having a political conversation with my neighbor and his ex wife, and their 2 sons, all Democrats, last week. The subject varied from Bush, the war, and our current economic circumstances. Now neither parent is stupid, but they are not the sharpest knifes in the drawer. Good for telling you where the next yard sale is, or what the best bingo or casino hall is, but not so much so on world events. The kids seem like high school grads but probably no collage. So to keep the conversation going I was making what I thought was a concerted attempt to keep things simple, while at the same time trying to get the truth of things out. Near the end of the conversation the ex wife says, “just because you use fancy big words doesn’t mean you are right”

    I couldn’t help but chuckle. In my younger days I would have conversations with a mentor of mine on how puzzled I was at how the masses seem to think, and that “people” couldn’t possible be that naive. After all I was just an average guy, if it was that obvious to me, how is it that most people couldn’t figure it out. As I have gotten older, it seems to me my mentor was right, a person is smart, people, in general, are stupid.

    I know that sounds harsh, and I mean it in the best possible way. I really don’t think people are stupid, maybe short sited would fit better. Maybe a complete inability to see the bigger picture or not able to foresee the consequences of their actions. Whatever you call it, it is still dangerous. There is a reason that ignorance of the law isn’t a valid defense.

    Libs, for whatever their reason of not being able to see the big picture, are dangerous. What they do have, and are having serious repercussions that we are going to have to live and deal with. The hardest part, like with any child, is getting them to have a conversation without it degenerating . Imagine where we could be at now, if we could just go from point, counter point, and actually learn something, rather then always, always, always, degenerating into something ugly, right JEAN?

  658. Sorry for the fragmented posts, just how my mind works sometimes.

    This article shows me something I and a few others knew all along. Obama is a politician like any other. Deceitful, manipulative, and dishonest. A far cry from the messiah that was candidate Obama.

  659. I will parrot what Pfesser said Wayne, thanks for the link. Really sheds some light on things.

    Another character test Libs. Any of you able to step up to the plate and (A) call it like it is and (B) if you touted Obama in the past and gave him credit for this, can you admit you were wrong?

  660. having perused the article it may have been $4 billion, I know I got it on aol news I will see if I can’t find the piece.

  661. I didn’t get a chance to read your link Wayne but I remember reading an article last week that stated that after GM pays back their loan, it will have cost tax payers $14 billion.

  662. Wayne –
    Thanks for the link. More governmental “creative financing.” This is why we need to implement my fifth proposal:

    #5 All governmental accounting shall be performed according to GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles).

    No more cooking the books. No more off-balance-sheet wars or entitlements. Straight-up accounting, like ALL businesses have to do.

    Nice job, Wayne. Sorry, NOP. Nothing like facts to spoil the day, huh? Your butt stinging? Owwwwwchhh!!!

  663. Let’s not forget that Chrysler repaid their government loan today, six years early.

    By: No One’s Puppet on May 24, 2011
    at 8:21 PM

    Go Chrysler & GM – the investment paid off!

    By: delurkergurl on May 24, 2011
    at 8:33 PM

    —-

    From the Washington Post, mind you. Hardly a Conservative Think Tank

    Obama’s phony accounting on the auto industry bailout

    We take no view on whether the administration’s efforts on behalf of the automobile industry were a good or bad thing; that’s a matter for the editorial pages and eventually the historians. But we are interested in the facts the president cited to make his case.

    What we found is one of the most misleading collections of assertions we have seen in a short presidential speech. Virtually every claim by the president regarding the auto industry needs an asterisk, just like the fine print in that too-good-to-be-true car loan.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/president-obamas-phony-accounting-on-the-auto-industry-bailout/2011/06/06/AG3nefKH_blog.html

    LIB SPEAK = BALD-FACED LIES

  664. Interesting email I just got from my son, who having been out of school for a year is taking a “developmental English” summer course – for us old folks, read that “bonehead” – in preparation for Real College this fall:

    “Dad, I just used “devotion” in a sentence as an example and the class went “woahhh big word”… It’s scary how illiterate people are here.”

    Yep, keep those teachers’ unions rolling. We have SUCH a good high school system in this country. Christ on a crutch…

  665. re: taxes and tough times for women.

    Unrelated. Everybody had a tough time. I’m doing genealogy research on my people in the mountains of WV in the 1800’s. You ain’t seen tough times and taxes had nothing to do with it.

    Point #5. Change the monetary system so that it requires backing of all paper money with hard assets. (Did I do that one?). I know the arguments about going on the gold standard, but with pure paper money the temptation for politicians to please their voters by simply printing money is too great and the repercussions don’t occur until the next fellow takes office.

    Libs? The ball is in your court. You gonna make some real, concrete suggestions or are you just going to whine? (You know, I like the term “regressives” to describe these whiners. I think I’ll use it exclusively.)

  666. Our current difficulty also demonstrates our residual toughness and self sufficiency. Most of us are making plans and protecting ourselves with little or no government help so far.

    Another thing about our women is many resemble Sarah Palin’s image if not the reality. For example, our son’s second grade teacher ran a trap line all winter to collect animals for her fur coat.

    “We’re from north California, and south Alabam
    and little towns all around this land
    We can skin a buck and run a trap line
    and country folk will survive
    I can plow a field all day long
    I can catch cat fish from dusk till dawn
    Raise good old tomatoes and home made wine
    There aren’t too many things we can’t do
    Because you can’t starve us out,
    and you can’t make us run
    Everyone of these boys raised on shot gun
    We say grace, and we say mam
    and if you aren’t into that, we don’t give a damn.”

    Hank Williams Junior

    I think that attitude is still in everyone if we need it.

  667. “People were more self sufficient then. They were also of stronger character and willing to sacrifice more…” is true to a point, but some of those old traits live on in the Heartland.

    Our son’s boss said employers like Midwestern farm and small town people because they know they have a strong work ethic and are self-reliant. My cousin in Florida said her company has a similar attitude.

    Farm kids, especially had jobs, and they knew the farm depended on them. If they didn’t do their jobs, the farm suffered, and someone else had to do what they failed to do as well as his/her own jobs.

    Years ago, women were more respected than in later times, because everyone knew rural society could not function without them. They weren’t refined. They worked as hard as men. Women worked in the fields before modern machinery made the work easier. They had the right to vote before it became nationally acceptable.

    They were as hard as the men. Wyoming’s first female doctor used a lynched horse thieve’s skull as a candy dish. When my grandfather took his son and three daughters to patrol a ditch bank at night to protect it from being cut at night, he armed them all. My aunt was the only one who ever fired a shot.

  668. Sally

    Those seem like ancient times. People were more self sufficient then. They were also of stronger character and willing to sacrifice a lot more. It wasn’t a good time to be a woman, so I, for one, am glad not to be of that time.

    I doubt that not having a Federal income tax had anything to do with how women were treated, and I doubt upon its conception women suddenly found themselves being treated better.

    In 1970 I was born yet, though pretty new to the world still.

    I did know that about the Federal Reserve. Learned that by watching Zeitgeist. If you haven’t watched it I highly recommend it .

  669. lmfao. Still couldn’t say it could ya JEAN. Hard core Lib through and through, thanks for always being the hypocritical you. You see my age impaired friend, I didn’t ask anything about current crop, or past crop, or the priced of used tires in China. I asked if your morals are conditional or do they hold true across party lines. I see we got our answer, thanks JEAN

    This is no surprise to anyone, this is just the typical MO on how Libs operate. I remember in another thread a poster listing at least 2 different times 2 Liberal Congressman (maybe women, I don’t remember) involved in some scandal. That poster asked if even one Liberal would denounce their activities. They asked for a couple days and in each case, not one, not a single Lib of all the hundreds, maybe thousands of people who post, had the moral fortitude to say that was wrong.

    Sitting around moaning, groaning and complaining in typical regressive fashion about how awful things are, doesn’t solve problems.

    I’ve noticed it is impossible JEAN for you to say anything that isn’t laced with petty insults. It would be interesting to see if someone as limited as yourself would be able to post an actual set of thoughts without the need to insult others to make yourself feel superior. And you do think you are better than everyone else, don’t you JEAN?

    jsri, it seems to me this is right up your alley! I know you have been quite generous with your time volunteering.

    Sitting up there on your high moral throne, issuing your decree to your minions to do that which you would not go out and do yourself.

    Since you are already at a high vantage point JEAN, on your throne and all, why not use your superior morals and intellect to take up Pfesser’s question. Show us conservatives how its done.

  670. re: the School Fix

    “The idea is simple. We seek scientists, mathematicians and engineers who are willing to volunteer to advise on curricula, answer a classroom’s questions or visit a school – for instance, to participate in a lab or talk about what you do.”

    You don’t fix a building that is crumbling from the foundation by putting flying buttresses on the side that is going to fall first or fix a flat tire by welding on a fifth wheel. I laud Scientific America’s noble experiment and as bad shape as our school system is in, I suppose anything would help, but the problems are at its foundation (remember my little lesson on “foundering,” Jean?) and it is, indeed, foundering. Perhaps we should start at the ground up and rebuild the system, rather than metaphorically rearranging the deck chairs. (as it founders)

    “Sitting around moaning, groaning and complaining in typical regressive fashion about how awful things are, doesn’t solve problems.”

    Hmmmm….as I recall, Jean, there is still a motion on the table (from me) for ANYONE to suggest fixes for America’s problems, and it is still sitting there. I even went first and suggested, I believe, four concrete changes that I would make.

    Crickets. Not a single self-identified progressive has taken up the gauntlet, except for one piss-water weak attempt at criticising MY ideas. Talk about whiners and complainers! As the foremost critic of whining and complaining, perhaps you would like to give it a try.

  671. Hi Congenial Gang,

    But seriously, folks…..

    This is the flip side of the home cyber school piece I did last night. If anybody out there is spoiling for a fight about it, fine. Feel free. It is, after all, only my opinion of what a good idea is.

    This is from the May 2011 issue of Scientific American written by Mariette DiChristina, the Editor-in-Chief of the magazine.

    “The National Academies last fall reported that the U.S. ranks 27 out of 29 wealthy countries in proportion of college students with degrees in science or engineering. It called on federal and state governments to improve teaching in math and science by targeting early childhood education and public school curricula and by supporting teacher training in crucial subjects. But many science teachers today, particularly in middle school and younger grades, do not have a science degree.

    Enter 1,000 Scientists in 1,000 Days, which aims to help teachers and scientists to connect with one another. Scientific American is launching this program as part of its three-year (that’s the 1,000 days) Change the Equation initiatives with our parent company, Nature Publishing Group. The idea is simple. We seek scientists, mathematicians and engineers who are willing to volunteer to advise on curricula, answer a classroom’s questions or visit a school – for instance, to participate in a lab or talk about what you do.

    Scientists, mathematicians, engineers: We hope you will consider participating in this worthy program by volunteering, using the form found at http://www.ScientificAmerican.com.

    Teachers: We plan to be ready with a geographic listing of experts near you by the beginning of the 2011-2012 academic year.

    Also on the Web site in May will be free science-related activities for parents and kids, called Bring Science Home.”

    Next issue, I will tell you about another new program – this one for enthusiasts wishing to work directly with scientists on real research.”

    Sitting around moaning, groaning and complaining in typical regressive fashion about how awful things are, doesn’t solve problems. I feel this and other similar educational ideas are progressive in getting the U.S. on track for the future. It will give our bright young people the incentives to succeed in innovative and productive lives not only for themselves but also for our country.

    jsri, it seems to me this is right up your alley! I know you have been quite generous with your time volunteering.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam.

    Auntie Jean

  672. Hi Congenial Gang,

    Thanks Sally for answering for me in regard to Clinton. I did say, CURRENT CROP of middle-aged, mid-life crises politicians who have regressed to adolescent behavior and thinking………… Twice said should be enough even for those with reading deficiencies. I didn’t think it was necessary to enumerate all of them back to King David.

    With the track record of public fascination for the talent and artistry of Lady Gaga, Charlie Sheen, Madonna and Mel Gibson then it’s not surprising high public office should be sought by Gingrich, Palin, Trump, et al with their sterling qualifications. Shoot, Weiners’ little sex scandal should propel him right into the White House in 2016!

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom. Saalam.

    Auntie Jean

  673. You’re right Noah. In the old old days, we did not have federal income taxes, and the government managed to get along just fine.

    Those seem like ancient times. People were more self sufficient then. They were also of stronger character and willing to sacrifice a lot more. It wasn’t a good time to be a woman, so I, for one, am glad not to be of that time.

    Along the way, life got more complicated. It also got easier, and faster. Our currency was gold or silver backed notes.

    As recent as the 1970’s (you probably weren’t born yet), gold was the currency standard and Fort Knox actually had gold in its vaults to back up the paper money in circulation. Richard (tricky Dicky) Nixon took the US off the gold standard resulting in dollars becoming worthless paper money. The value of the dollar vs other world currencies then started fluctuating rather than being set to the gold standard.

    Did