Posted by: Helen Philpot | October 8, 2010

Helen and Margaret’s Pledge to America

Margaret, the problem with Populism is that the population includes asses like Sarah Palin and her Tea Party.  Someone needs to remind them that this is America.  The government is elected by the people.  Questioning your government is patriotic.  Hating your government, one the other hand,  is simply a form of self loathing.

And let’s talk about that hatred.  It seems so at odds with the supposed Christian morals they so proudly espouse.  They hate big government but instead of taking issue with the largest part of that government – the military – they take issue with healthcare.  They hate big government in healthcare but they have no issue with government being big enough to intervene in the private health decisions of a woman seeking to end a pregnancy or the private decisions of a husband wanting to end the decade long sufferings of his wife.  They hate big government but they don’t seem to hate using government to legislate hate against homosexuals.  And they hate big government, but they don’t seem to hate it when they can use it to fuel their hatred.  Gosh I hate that…

And now those morons in Washington with the “R” after their names have made another pledge to America.   I guess it’s just one more thing they can do today and then ignore tomorrow .   A Contract With America.   A Pledge to AmericaMission Accomplished.   For goodness sakes how many times are we going to fall for this prank?  They spend years screwing everything up and then eventually pledge to not do it again.  How about not doing it the first time… or the second time for that matter?

 Here is my pledge to you Margaret.  I hope you like it.

I pledge that I will actually read the Constitution before pledging to uphold it.  And I pledge that if I am too stupid to understand its intent,  I won’t become a politician.

I pledge not to start two wars, give tax breaks to millionaires, ruin the economy and then get mad when someone shows me the bill.

I pledge not to be a hypocrite or a Tea Party Republican – whichever comes first.

I pledge to remember that religious freedoms apply to all religions including the lack of a religion.  And I pledge to remember that no matter how much I believe in my religion, I will remember that my neighbor believes in his religion just as much.  And finally, I pledge that if I believe in my religion too much I will keep it to myself.

I pledge to stop calling Sarah Palin a stupid bitch when she finally admits that she is too stupid to run this country.  At that point I will simply call her a bitch and let the stupid speak for itself.

I pledge that I won’t hate gay people in public and then sleep with them in private.

I pledge to accept the fact that John McCain really can’t pull his head out of his ass at this point.  It’s in too deep.

I pledge not to be shocked when Rick Sanchez announces his new show on Fox News.

I pledge to remember that there are 6 billion people in the world and only 300 million of them live in the United States .  And with 300 million Americans to choose from, we can’t do better than John Boehner?  Really?

And Margaret, my dear, I pledge that I will vote on November 2.  I meant it.  Really.

 Here is my pledge to you dear.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

That about sums it up, dear.  That and Endust is as good if not better than Pledge.

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Responses

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  2. Margaret and Helen…I see many trolls here on this site today…..you must be doing something right to have struck such a nerve…Keep it up ladies!!!!

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  4. Shelly, looking at the dieferfnce between the words government & movement , I’m wondering if the teleprompter-reader was reading ahead , and after-the-fact realized s/he had made a mistake. IN NO WAY am I trying to excuse CNN (they’re in deep stuff re their viewership and ratings downfall). I’m just sayin’ I sometimes read too fast for my brain/mouth too. It may be more of a Freudian slip (truth is peeking out) than a verbal gaffe. Just maybe.

  5. Just found this website…There is some pretty funny stuff on here! Love the joke about McD’s and Obama still laughing about it 5 min later.

  6. Helen anf Margaret

    Does it hurt to shove a toothbrush up you ass every day? I assume you brush your teeth daily. I hope the good lord restores your common sense soon.

  7. testing

  8. test

  9. ok

  10. I find great gratification when months of research, and soul searching are confirmed in the will of the people. We were on the wrong path and I wasn’t alone in my thinking by a long shot. Republicans only needed 39 seats to get the house and they got 60. 9 Democratic states voted in Republican governors. I hope Obama will open his mind to a new way of thinking and work to change our course.

  11. On a lighter note. Did you all hear about the new Obama menu at McDonalds? Order anything you want and the guy behind you pays for it (:>

  12. You guys were the heart of industry. Now all your industries have been outsourced. Cheaper labor, lower manufacturing costs, and less environmental restrictions, have sent industry out of the country. It’s economics. Shareholder profits drive the corporations. Your farmland is corporate owned and where it isn’t the folks are likely so in debt to the government and banks, they can’t afford to quit, short of filing bankruptcy.

    I’m a pool builder in Arizona. Four years ago we were the hottest market with money coming in from all over the globe. We couldn’t get to all the work that was out there. Profits were at an all-time high. You had people getting on huge waiting lists for the prime residential properties. Gated communities and golf courses as far as the eye could see. Hotels, condos, resorts, shopping malls, all turning the desert into a lush paradise. The construction industry was our lifeblood. Houses and subdivisions were going in everywhere. Cities were growing and that meant work for all the infastructure, policemen, schools, fire departments, etc. We couldn’t keep up, unemployment was like zip. It meant jobs and it supported all the businesses that thrived from those workers.

    Fast forward to 2008 and it was a bidding frenzy for the declining work. Prices fell as people were giving away pools and houses for cost or less to try to keep the crews and lights on for as long as possible.

    Fast forward to today where the few survivors in the industry are beginning to see glimmers of hope as financial institutions are beginning to ease freezes on lending. That was supposed to happen with the bank bailout. It didn’t, and banks pretty much decimated many small businesses directly and indirectly because of the lending freeze. It has been an extreme lifestyle change for everyone that has stuck it out.

  13. It takes a loyal (?) person to dance with the guy who brung ya after he knocked you down, stole your car and left you for dead.

  14. ok well maybe somewhere in the 51st state things are improving. Here in Michigan, Ohio and Wisconsin where unemployment has been 14-25% of several years we are still very much struggling. You see a graph that shows prosperity. I see people lining up at 4am at food pantry lines that dont start till 8am and those lines go on for 6 hours straight AFTER that.. I see a state where 26% of kids depend on the state to eat everyday. I live in this little place I like to call reality. Where the dollar is day by day devaluing, and our debt is at an all time high. We lost tens of thousands of jobs here in Michigan that will never come back while the government is telling us that 10% unemployment is the new norm. I guess I am just not one to settle.

  15. Sorry, Noah. I actually assumed you could comprehend straight forward answers. Check the ventilation at your place, would you? I’m a bit concerned for your health.

    All indicators show that the economy IS stabilizing since dems have taken the wheel. Call it 2007 or 2009, I don’t care. Plain enough? The facts prove it. The graphs show it. I don’t know what else to do for you. I’m not a Barney Frank fan. I’m not a Chris Dodd fan. Hell, I’m not even a democrat. Try reading a little s-l-o-w-e-r, that sometimes helps with comprehension. I think you had mentioned dyslexia in an earlier comment. Maybe have someone read it to you.

  16. Third times the charm. If your able..at all..able..please feel free to comment…directly on the points I made. I had assumed you were more than talking points. I had assumed we were in an honest discussion. you will take note I answered to your posts point by point. Show me the same respect..that is..if your able.

  17. Oh here’s one you may like. The unemployment graph.

    http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?request_action=wh&graph_name=LN_cpsbref3

    It looks like we peaked and are starting to come down. These always take the longest to recover, per the economists. But looks like it is going in the right direction. :grin: I actually feel a little better about this administration after viewing these stats. Thanks Noah!

  18. How about a GDP graph? Nice wave.

    http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_gdp_history

    This is fun. What was your point again?

  19. And if you want to measure the DOW, check out how that tidal wave looks in graph form. You can even go back a hundred years and compare.

    http://stockcharts.com/charts/historical/djia2000.html

  20. The Clinton quote came from that link I provided – the fact check site – thus the quotation marks. Note: Click the red letters, read source.

    I did not even vote for Clinton. At the time I was a staunch republican. If you actually check those FACTS, you might sing a different tune. I know I would if someone proved me wrong, but then I am willing to learn and form new opinions when mine no longer follow truth.

  21. amend…and you claim republicans use talking points*

  22. maybe..just maybe..rather than using the old..and i might add very tired clinton…lets maybe get a little more up to date compair to obama..and maybe…just maybe…instead of playing shift topics…lets actually answer for what was done during those times..rather than rant on and on about once was. I know its an uncomfortable thing to actually admit the dems can do wrong…but I find it comical that no matter how long they are in power..they always walked into a mess…are never responsible while in power..and clinton did better. Lets try and round 2 and take it from the top…and you claim dems use talking points

  23. First of all, my one true party is? I told you earlier in this thread that I am a registered independent. I vote for the individual, not the party. The problem is on both sides, and really has much to do with our 2 party system.

    Second, you claim the republicans held the legislature for 12 years before the democrats seized the majority in both houses. And as I recall, they won those seats because the majority of the nation was fed up with Bush’s wars, lies, and all the vast moral decay of the sitting republicans.

    The wars were already ongoing, the tax cuts across the board for citizens and corporations had already been enacted, the Medicare part D (donut hole) had just been implemented. Trillions of dollars were already unaccounted for and missing from the Pentagon and trillions more in Iraq. Predatory practices in the subprime mortgage lending were being investigated as they had been going on for some 12 years or so by 2007.

    So just because dems took over the majority in 2007, doesn’t mean everything was hunky dory up until then. The things that were done previous would cause a really nice ride for a short time. Thus the stock market recovery after 9/11. It is just like surfing on a tidal wave. Fun! Exhilarating! High! Woohoo! Raises ALL the boats in the water. But like surfing that massive wave, it can’t be sustained indefinitely. And like that tidal wave, there will be massive devastation left in its wake.

    You can paint a rosey picture if you choose. But it all can be fact-checked and by doing so, reveals the bigger picture. Bush gained 4.6 million jobs making up for his earlier loss of 2.6 million jobs. “It’s true that the number of consecutive months in which the economy has added jobs is the longest on record, but the number of jobs gained is not. The pace of job creation was far stronger during the Clinton administration, when 22.7 million new jobs were added despite seven months that saw slight declines. Since Bush’s “record” run began in August 2003, the gain has been 8.3 million. It’s true that wages are up: Average weekly earnings for rank-and-file workers were $605.96 in Dec. 2007, compared with $578.67 a year earlier. But after adjustment for rising prices, the buying power of the average weekly paycheck actually declined.”

    So vote the corporate shills out, no matter what their party affiliation.

  24. I was going to let this lie but a few things you have said bother some some poolman. You claim Republicans have no plan. I show you their plans and you call them talking points. I wonder how you might stand up for your one true party with some facts about them? In your own words, Answer if your able.

    The day the democrats took over was not January 22nd 2009 it was actually January 3rd 2007 the day the Democrats took over the House of Representatives and the Senate, the start of the 110th Congress. The Democratic Party controlled a majority in both chambers for the first time since the end of the 103rd Congress in 1995.

    For those who are listening to the liberals propagating the fallacy that everything is “Bush’s Fault”, think about this:

    January 3rd, 2007 was the day the Democrats took over the Senate and the Congress:

    At the time:

    1. The DOW Jones closed at 12,621.77
    2. The GDP for the previous quarter was 3.5%
    3. The Unemployment rate was 4.6%
    4. George Bush’s Economic policies SET A RECORD of 52 STRAIGHT MONTHS of JOB CREATION!

    Remember the day…

    1. January 3rd, 2007 was the day that Barney Frank took over the House Financial Services Committee and Chris Dodd took over the Senate Banking Committee.

    2. The economic meltdown that happened 15 months later was in what part of the economy?
    BANKING AND FINANCIAL SERVICES!

    3. Thank Congress for taking us from 13,000 DOW, 3.5 GDP and 4.6% Unemployment to this CRISIS by dumping 5-6 TRILLION Dollars of toxic loans on the economy from YOUR Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac fiasco’s!
    (BTW: Bush asked Congress 17 TIMES to stop Fannie & Freddie – starting in 2001, because it was financially risky for the U.S. economy, but no one was listening).

    And who took the THIRD highest pay-off from Fannie Mae AND Freddie Mac? OBAMA

    And who fought against reform of Fannie and Freddie?? OBAMA and the Democratic Congress

    Bush may have been in the car, but the Democrats were in charge of the gas pedal and steering wheel they were driving.

  25. didn’t realize there are other threads. I will move on then. was good talking with you all.

  26. Most of us have moved on to the newer thread, Noah. I can’t see where we were making any progress, anyway. I don’t think we are communicating.

    I don’t see where you have offered any SOLUTIONS from the republican platform. Sure, they SAY all the right things. They have the psychology of politics down. Cutting taxes, extending tax cuts, staying the course in Afghanistan, secure the border, etc., are just talking points made to make people feel good. These, however, have to be shown to actually be viable. Like a PLAN showing how we can still afford to survive that accompanies these nice sound bites. On one hand you claim we are running up an unsustainable deficit, and on the other you want to keep the major items that are causing that debt. Where does the new revenue come from? My point that the tax cuts HAVE NOT worked to stimulate the economy seems to be ignored. If it hasn’t worked in 8 years, what is the magic reason it will begin to work?

    Reducing the government by combining departments sounds good as a sound bite. Show me where in the past ANY republican administrations or congresses have done that. Yet I can offer plenty of politicians of all persuasions proposing such. Words and ideas are easy to banter. Show me the proof. Repealing the new health care law is a popular sound bite. What do your representatives have to offer to fix the health care issues that plague this country? It seems we went this route before. Talk of tort reform and expanding the reach of insurance companies beyond state lines was what they proposed. The republicans want to give more power and freedom to big pharma and the health insurance industry. That is what they have done over the past 30 years and it has put us in the position of 37th in the world in quality of care and number 1 at cost per citizen. Republicans want to further deregulate corporations and banks. That is what they have done for 30 years and is the reason we are in this economic situation right now. All the safeguards put in place after the great depression have been systematically removed. Thank you corporate shills!

    To say we cannot up and leave in Iraq or Afghanistan or anywhere else in the world because we have obligated ourselves to be there, seems to say we, the people, have obligated ourselves to be the police of the world. This conflicts with our constitution. It also has put us in violation of the UN and their charter, which we helped ratify. We illegally invaded both countries, yet you claim we have to now make it right there. This is like telling a rapist he has to raise the child he fostered. WE CANNOT AFFORD TO NATION BUILD!! Learn a lesson from China, bring the military home and fix our own country.

    I have decided most professed republicans have lost the ability to reason. It is easier to just rock the boat and complain. That seems to work best to rally their base. Obama this, Obama that. And the sheeple all chime in unison. Ignorant sheep.

  27. Were we done poolman?

  28. I concur, thus my point about corruption and not foreseeing any change in the near future.

  29. And my point is that they are the REASON there aren’t laws prohibiting what they do.

  30. ourselves=themselves

  31. My point is, is that if we don’t have a law making it illegal then they are not to be blamed for doing it. If we find a problem with how they are conducting ourselves then we need to make guidelines or laws that prohibit that behavior.

  32. But Noah, think about how it came to be that the corporations have these loop holes. Don’t be sure they are not to be blamed. That’s like saying a burglar isn’t to be blamed for walking through a door that was “wide open” because he’d knocked it down!

    http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/01/ge-exxon-walmart-business-washington-corporate-taxes.html

  33. I am all about campaign finance reform. The corporations are not to be blamed for doing what is currently legal. Sadly so much of the current system is to easily corruptible that I don’t foresee any true reform in the near or distant future.

  34. sorry about all the spellos above… need more coffee…

  35. Noah, you are commenting on an older post. Maybe you didn’t notice there is a newer one? I think snoringdogstudio may be referring to behavior on the newer post but commented here by mistake.

  36. Noah-
    Corporations are just fine as businesses…
    As entities which have too much sway on government, more than you and I- waaaay more, they stink.
    The shift in the last 30 years from a liberqal capitalist economy to a neoliberal form ( Liberal means something very different in this context than what we mean when talking about politics ) has had vast effects on our society and government…
    And those corps are NOT paying their share anymore… haven’t for quite awhile… but they sure are spending $$s to affect elections at a rate you and I can’t…
    Scout around for comaprisons on neoliberal and liberal economic policy… is a different frame of reference to start a conversation about where we are…
    The shift was very deliberate …

  37. I scrolled up about 15 posts didn’t see anyone calling anyone a loser or idiot.

  38. Good discussions, all. Calling people “losers” and “idiots” — not a discussion. Please stop.

  39. sorry for the duplicate paragraph at the end there.

  40. Where to begin. First off poolman the topic of the conversation was your claim that the Republicans have no specific agenda, a topic you chose to forget once I showed you otherwise. It took me less than a minute of research to find that information which leads me to believe you arer not open to ideas from anyone but your party.

    My “logical” commentary was on helping business prosper to create more jobs to create more tax dollars. You disingenuously put that into your argument on defense.

    On your stance on defense. I guess I am of the opinion you take care of the things you have taken a responsibility for. Cut and run isn’t a moral option I am willing to consider. We have obligated ourselves in many places in the world, both militarily and financially. A lot of people are counting on us on both fronts to keep them alive. If we as a nation decide that we have over extended ourselves, or we just decide we need to withdraw from the world as you suggest, then we should do so in a way with a little more honor and compassion for those we are about to abandon.

    I guess I hold our troops in a higher regard. I am grateful for the service they provide that allow me my way of life. I believe we need our military and that the money spent on them and they technology they need to protect us is money well spent.

    “Eliminate illegal offshore tax shelter and fraud schemes.”
    IF they are already illegal then it sounds to me like we just need this administration to enforce laws that are already on the books.

    I have never understood the notion to vilify corporations. If we were to eliminate corporations #1 you better become very self sufficient in a hurry, start a farm, get a gun to hunt your own food, #2 say goodbye to all your social programs because all those tax dollars that the corporations produce that fund this country would be gone. Do I think that all corporations are good? Of course not. Do I understand that they are a major contributor that keeps our capitalist wheels running, yes!

    I have never understood the notion to vilify corporations. If we were to eliminate corporations #1 you better become very self sufficient in a hurry, start a farm, get a gun to hunt your own food, #2 say goodbye to all your social programs because all those tax dollars that the corporations produce that fund this country would be gone. Do I think that all corporations are good? Of course not. Do I understand that they are a major contributor that keeps our capitalist wheels running, yes!

  41. Well, anyone can see just how well those Bush tax cuts have helped keep this economy from tanking since they were enacted in 2001 and 2003. :roll: Even if we let them expire, they will still cost us for many years to come. And we certainly can’t reduce defense spending, afterall 50 percent of our revenue goes to support it and all its far-reaching talons. Why we certainly should spend what the rest of the world combined spends on our “defense”, while keeping over 700 active bases in other countries across the globe. Not imperialistic at all, mind you. :roll:

    Defund all the wars. Penalize corporations that send jobs abroad. Eliminate illegal offshore tax shelter and fraud schemes. Actually prosecute criminals in the corporations, the upper class, and the government. Truly hold them to the same laws and standards as the common citizen. Facts don’t seem to penetrate. How about logic? We cannot afford to be the world’s police and human rights policy enforcers. They don’t want us in that position and we can’t afford to be, not to mention how poor a job we have actually done at it. Too logical?

  42. for the wealthiest who need it least. Interesting website.

    But if we are to be honest, and I hope we are, aren’t we just talking about forced redistribution of wealth? Lets also consider that a large percentage of those in that income bracket are business owners. Those that employee most of you. This administration has called the 10% unemployment we are now at the “new norm”. This is something that I refuse to accept. I will never accept that the best this country can do is having 10% of its population in abject poverty.

    As I understand things, it’s either the top 3% or 5% are already paying 80% of the total taxes base received by our government. People, we are not a socialist country. Do we really want to send out the message that success is punishable by redistribution?

    The logical approach in my opinion is to create a place where business can thrive so that more folks are put back to work, thus creating more tax dollars for our government to work with.

  43. A little perspective on Bush Tax Cuts:
    http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/001955.htm

    Δ ~ PEACE

  44. “If I truly can…..”

    Most republicans are opposed to letting the Bush tax cuts expire, and I agree. I’ve seen topics covered on a range of ideas from scraping the remaining stimulus package dollars, repeal the new health care law, bring non-defense discretionary spending back to 2007-8 budget levels.

    Reduce the size of government. One plan calls for consolidating the Commerce, Agriculture and Interior Departments into one agency in order to eliminate duplicative services. Others have called for a commission to review federal assets that could legitimately be liquidated.

    I guess I truly can.

  45. Noah, I don’t know where you have found “specific ideas of how the Republicans plan to solve this problem.” I would certainly like to see those specific ideas. All I have heard is a lot of talking points and no specifics. And there is the usual cut taxes rhetoric with no solutions to reduce the deficit or how they plan to build our economy and stop jobs from going overseas. Please share. Point us in the direction of some of these fiscally conservative Republicans, if you truly can.

    In my state, I want to get rid of McCain. He has a democratic challenger that has some good ideas, but the most intelligent and solution-driven candidate is from the Libertarian Party. Unfortunately, he doesn’t stand a chance since people are so party oriented. Likely I will put my vote behind Glassman, the dem, only because that is the best chance we have for getting McCain out. McCain is corporate bought and paid and will drag us further from economic recovery with his policies and allegiances.

  46. delurkergurl, I don’t know what your reading but I am seeing, watching and listening to very specific ideas of how the Republicans plan to solve this problem. I kept an open mind and listen to what both sides had to say. I have a feeling anything the Republicans say would be viewed by you and others as rhetoric. Neither side is perfect. But neither is either side totally flawed.

    To many people are committed to a party rather than what is best for the country. The best way to detect this is when someone says all Republicans or Democrats or Independents or Conservatives or Liberals are bad. While each has their own philosophy on how to get things done, each in most cases have enough merit to make it worth considering.

    As for the democrats spending less. Less of what is already way to much isn’t good enough. Savings for the future isn’t going to cut it if we can’t get through today. We need to take care of today now, not 10 years down the road.

  47. Democrats may not be putting the deficits first, Noah, but they have spent less than last year and are fighting the party of NO to implement cost saving measures for the future. You’re right, the Republican side is TALKING about fiscal responsibility and debt reduction. It’s great campaign rhetoric. When asked for SPECIFIC PLANS, they have none.

  48. Respectfully, I have checked the facts. The surplus is ancient history, not to be confused with what is best for today. I don’t see the democrats putting the deficit first. I see more than a trillion dollars a year being spent now by the democrats who are by the way in complete control right now. Almost without exception from the Republican side I see posts and adds almost always talking first about fiscal responsibility and debt reduction.

  49. Noah, you are correct about our huge deficit and debt. We need to get it under control. The biggest abuser is the military. Until we rein them in, we won’t be able to make ANY progress. But you are wrong to see the democrats as those that put us in this situation. I know I have posted the spending from the various administrations regarding the deficit. BY FAR, republicans have increased the deficit at a much greater rate than democrats have. There was actually a budget SURPLUS after Clinton’s administration. It would be wise to check the facts before you vote, otherwise you are only going to make the problem worse.

  50. Helen Philpot , on the topic of your Oct 22 post. I was wondering if you read these responses and could open a dialog with you on this post? A lot of what I see in this post seems to come from a negative place of anger and bigotry.

  51. P said -

    Nice try, but what I read and what I comment upon is my decision alone, and there isn’t a single thing you can do about it. Brevity is the soul of wit, to quote my old roomie, Bill Shakespeare. (that’s not original) Every time your ADD gets out of hand and diarrhea of the keyboard is the order of the day, I think I’ll call you on it, just for fun.

    Get some wit.

    I’m flattered that you find tracking my posts so important to you. I would, however, advise that you get something else in your life…also, having dead people for “old roomies” is not something I would recommend, it tends to make folks look at your responses with an eye towards the bizarre. Go ahead, have your “fun.” In the mean time I will post what I want, to whatever length I want.

  52. I’ve been look at the issues on both sides and usually I vote a split ticket but this time around I have a problem voting anything but Republican. Since coming to office Obama has spent more than a trillion dollars per year. Our deficit stands at over $13 trillion and counting. Fiscal responsibility HAS to be the first priority of the next Congress. If we manage to not having any further increases in spending and just maintain what we have today, in 2020 we will have a $1 trillion interest payment due on our debt. I don’t know of any economy that can sustain that kind of debt load. It is time to make some tough decisions.

  53. Thank heavens we have finally unleashed Obama!

    Let’s hope we haven’t waited too long. When are we going to learn to play offense?

    We have a President sitting in the White House with a 8o+ percent (among democrats ) approval rating!!!! For heavens sake USE HIM!!!!!! GET HIM OUT THERE…

    What were we thinking????

    grrrrr

  54. You are a breath of fresh air. You say the words that I am thinking, only better and funnier.

  55. thank you Delurker Girl, I needed to see that. I can’t wait to vote Nov. 2nd.

  56. Thanks Donna. You know more about this than I do.

    I will only be here about a week, and then we will deal with the law suit, if it still exists. I’d give you more of the details of life in the Twilight Zone, but most people would be bored.

    Fox News has offered Juan Williams a lucrative contract. Good for him.

  57. James: Unless you changed your residence permanently, notice by publication will be effective regardless of whether you happen to be in the state at the time of the publication(s) (most states require a set number of publications).

    I do remember it. It’s nice to see you treating people differently and I certainly appreciate it.

  58. Fox actually running with real news. I guess we only bought 9,500 books instead of the 10K and for a mere $47,000.00. What budget did that come out of? I hate it when we pay in to a system that uses our revenue to cover up their sins from us. I wonder how much more of that goes on that we never get wind of? They act like this stuff grows on trees. Justice soon, I pray!

  59. Thanks, Donna. I wondered how that worked. We six are on new ground. Our county’s economic development person called me from a business meeting in southeast Iowa and told me a deputy sheriff had delivered papers to her office here on the Iowa-Nebraska border. The economic development lady, a good friend, told me she had asked our county attorney for advice, and he said he would get back to her. No other word so far.

    A deputy delivered the papers to our chairman at 8:30PM. After he told her, my wife told me to lock the doors and we kept the television volume down.

    Early this morning, after my wife left for school, a deputy knocked on our door for quite a while, but I kept quiet and didn’t answer it. I fled a half hour later and met another official car 3/4 mile from our home. I assume they were making another attempt to notify me.

    I am now in Nebraska where I am out of reach of notification by publication if it is what you mean by publishing a notice in the local paper. I am here for a planned legitimate reason. I just hid from the process servers, and left a day early. So far I don’t think anyone thinks I was actively hiding.

    They could deliver the papers to school where my wife works, but she is sick and planned to leave to see the doctor. It would have been hard to find her today. Our area is thinly settled, and the distance between home, the doctor and school is large. I haven’t been able to reach her since I left home early this morning. She will be with me on the weekend, probably with the papers.

    Its irrational to have fun with this, but it was irrational to fight with sharp sticks on this site while fighting ghosts from 40 years ago. Its what the Vet Center told me is a normal reaction to trauma.

    Donna, it is also irrational, but I have a feeling you are a good lawyer. If you lived closer, I would hire you.

    Do you remember when I insulted you, apologized, and instructed you in my view of how to best creatively insult me? Lots of bad things were happening then, and I suspected this was in our future. My wife told me I was crazy. That was a bad day, and I had good reason to feel nostalogic for my two days of hallucinations when I was sick in late August.

    This group of usurpers is like a cow bird crowding a baby robin from the nest. I don’t think they can win, but if they do, and I pay costs, oh well. It was fun while it lasted.

    My wife and I have voted. Maybe now, I can vote in Nebraska. Ha!

    Does anyone have an opinion about NPR’s firing Juan Williams? I like Juan Williams. I like NPR. We have given them money, and people have taken my calls on the air. In this case, I think they were wrong.

  60. Wow!

  61. James: I am glad you are enjoying your life on the run. However, they can simply now serve you by publication. And, if they are successful in the lawsuit, you’re responsible for the costs of the process server and the publication. And even if they aren’t successful in the litigation, I can tell you that judges loathe people who evade service.

  62. Early voting in AR, AZ, CO, FL, IL, KS, LA, NC, NM, NV, OH, TN, TX & UT

    vote early and vote often! ;-)

  63. Bosley84. The link didn’t outrage me. The writer has no clue about the traits and motivations of the Tea Parties, but it doesn’t bother me.

    I am having too much fun being a fugitive. I had mentioned the discord in our town and country arts organization. The group we deposed sued the current board. I am the only one of six to have escaped the process servers with two narrow escapes. Each attempt costs them $30.00.

  64. “Seeing as there is no “quote” function that I know of on this blog there is no other means of reference to use while answering. If you find it tedious that little wheel on your mouse will allow you to scroll right on by…in much less time then it took you to write your post. As far as I know there is nobody here forcing you to read anything. Right?”

    Nice try, but what I read and what I comment upon is my decision alone, and there isn’t a single thing you can do about it. Brevity is the soul of wit, to quote my old roomie, Bill Shakespeare. (that’s not original) Every time your ADD gets out of hand and diarrhea of the keyboard is the order of the day, I think I’ll call you on it, just for fun.

    Get some wit.

  65. (a lol reality check….which IS needed in regards to perspectivity issues for sure !)

    I am outraged! Are you not outraged?

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2010/10/20/notes102010.DTL&ao=all

  66. You both are an inspiration to many, including me. I love your straight talk, clear values and shrewd analysis of our lunatic fringe politicians. May you live many years more. Keep on posting. You are SO refreshing. Thank you for your efforts. “I mean it. Really.”

  67. Hi Congenial Gang,

    It was reported today that the military DADT has been lifted. So now gays and lesbians can go sign up. There is a catch though. It may be overturned on appeal so then they could be tossed out, no matter how well qualified they are for their jobs. Sheesh!

    I have a story about that. (As many of you know by now, I’ve got a million of ‘em!) When I was working in Houston back in the 50’s, over time a fun group of our friends developed a lively social life, if extremely low budget. None of us had any money. Many of us were from different lines of work. It was an unspoken policy that we always went ‘dutch’ on ‘dates’. At one point, four of we single gals banded together to pool our meager resources to rent a house. For us, it was a veritable mansion! We didn’t manage our spare paychecks very well. More interested in fashion than food, we quite often lived on oatmeal the last few days before payday.

    Some of the single guys also had roommates to share expenses so there was nothing unusual about that. More often than not, a whole crowd of us would wind up sitting on the floor watching this new fangled invention – black and white snowy TV. Cheap entertainment.

    There were several young married couples acting as unofficial chaperones. We were pretty moral I think. There was not much heavy-duty hanky panky going on. There were a very limited number of cars (jalopies!) to go anywhere or do anything. We always chipped in for the gas and occasionally took up a collection for brake jobs, oil changes and routine maintenance. It was pretty amazing how many people we could pile into one car!

    One of my co-workers was a super nice guy. He knew his job very well and we worked together with an easy camaraderie. We often had to work late until the tasks of the day were finished. One night we left the building together and I was headed for the bus stop. Another guy was leaning against his car waiting for my co-worker. My friend introduced us and we chatted for a few minutes. I noticed at first they seemed a little uneasy and awkward. As it turned out, they were a gay couple and had been together in a committed relationship for quite sometime.

    Of course, I had heard of gay people but that was the first time I had ever met any. On my long bus ride home, I thought about it. I had worked with this guy for well over a year. What difference did it make? He was the same guy. I had no romantic designs on him anyway. After that our circle of friends started including them in our social life. Hey, we had a TV and they had a car!!!!

    One time the whole group of us decided to go down to Galveston to go swimming in the ocean. You wouldn’t believe how many of us managed to jam into their car! I think we had about four cars by then, so there were quite a bunch of us. The island was kind of deserted and we did notice that the waves were pretty big. But we had a grand old time frolicking in the surf! When we got back to Houston, we heard on the news that Galveston was on a hurricane warning and the island had been evacuated!

    Ah, the joys of invincible youth!

    I just don’t understand why such a big deal is made about anybody’s private life. When people get to know each other, it really doesn’t matter one whit.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom.

    Auntie Jean

  68. P said

    “Your right wayside616, with you commenting on what you interpret I say rather than what I actually say and putting words in my mouth I didn’t say its probably better we agree to disagree and move on.”

    Yes, and try to be a little more succinct while you’re at it. Restating nearly every word on both sides is tedium defined. I believe you might be worth engaging, but life is too short to wade through such extremely long posts.

    Seeing as there is no “quote” function that I know of on this blog there is no other means of reference to use while answering. If you find it tedious that little wheel on your mouse will allow you to scroll right on by…in much less time then it took you to write your post. As far as I know there is nobody here forcing you to read anything. Right? As far as putting words in Noah’s mouth go please show me where I once misquoted him or attached meaning that wasn’t there.

  69. Mageen- on the way out the door in a few minutes for a McAdams meet and greet.
    This one is truly up in the air. Mr Miller’s supporters are pretty much solid- he can only go down. The split between McAdams and Murkowski is going to be a nail biter. Mcadams will win if people vote their conscience, Murkowski will lose a certain number of ballots to challenge as a write in but people are on the fence because they are worried Miller will win…
    It is pretty wild! :-)
    Polls are notoriously bad here so it’s very hard to tell.
    Most voters in the state register as non-partisan or undeclared and those 2 categories well outnumber the Ds and Rs…

  70. Noah said -

    “Your right wayside616, with you commenting on what you interpret I say rather than what I actually say and putting words in my mouth I didn’t say its probably better we agree to disagree and move on.”

    Yes, and try to be a little more succinct while you’re at it. Restating nearly every word on both sides is tedium defined. I believe you might be worth engaging, but life is too short to wade through such extremely long posts.

  71. Thank you Whirled, That was an amusing surprise.

  72. Why should anyone care?

  73. I heard Limbaugh, Palin and Obama are related.

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_y1obSLk0ax4/TLspF_OH8HI/AAAAAAAAGbI/tWJ2MKUkTVk/s1600/roundup+cartoon.jpg

    Δ ~ ;)

  74. alaskapi, read some polling results today that show Lisa Murkowski right behind Joe Miller. For a write in candidate that is not too shab-bay. What do you think will happen between now and November 2nd as far as Miller’s opponents are concerned?

  75. Noah,

    Your idea is, morally, extremely sound. Unfortunately it will never come to be. Here’s why:

    “…the Drug Policy Alliance notes that the war on drugs includes a $9 billion prison economy, not to mention more billions in homeless shelters, healthcare, chemical dependency and psychiatric treatment, etc. Each one of these industries – as well as the employment of cops, judges, probation officers, etc – would be severely hurt should America decide to give up its war on drugs. This doesn’t justify the madness but it is important to remember that we have created a multi-billion dollar economy based on our failed drug policies. Notes DPA, the beneficiaries of the drug war include:

    “Prison architects and contractors, corrections personnel, policy makers and academics, and the thousands of corporate vendors who peddle their wares at the annual trade-show of the American Corrections Association – hawking everything from toothbrushes and socks to barbed-wire fences and shackles.

    “And multi-national corporations that win tax subsidies, incentives and abatements from local governments — robbing the public coffers and depriving communities of the kind of quality education, roads, health care and infrastructure that provide genuine incentives for legitimate business. The sale of tax-exempt bonds to underwrite prison construction is now estimated at $2.3 billion annually. . .

    “Corporations that appear to be far removed from the business of punishment are intimately involved in the expansion of the prison industrial complex. Prison construction bonds are one of the many sources of profitable investment for leading financiers such as Merrill Lynch. MCI charges prisoners and their families outrageous prices for the precious telephone calls which are often the only contact inmates have with the free world. Many corporations whose products we consume on a daily basis have learned that prison labor power can be as profitable as third world labor power exploited by U.S.-based global corporations. Both relegate formerly unionized workers to joblessness, many of which wind up in prison. Some of the companies that use prison labor are IBM, Motorola, Compaq, Texas Instruments, Honeywell, Microsoft, and Boeing. But it is not only the hi-tech industries that reap the profits of prison labor. Nordstrom department stores sell jeans that are marketed as ‘Prison Blues,’ as well as t-shirts and jackets made in Oregon prisons.”

    Corporate America strikes again. I’m afraid your concept, however correct it may be, will never see the light of day as long as we have corporations running our government.

  76. Poolman,

    “Zionism” has become a catch phrase for any argument that supports any action of Israel. Strange, but there is no comparative term for the support of Palestinian violence. The Palestinian people deserve a safe and viable homeland and hardline Israeli factions have done much to prevent this, however it is often overlooked that the Arab world has been the greatest contributor to the plight of the Palestinians. There is not a single Arab state that has lived up to its financial commitments to the Palestinian people…not one. Furthermore the Arab oil industry benefits from the constant unrest in the area…allowing prices to remain in constant flux, rising when instability sweeps the region. The Palestinian people want peace, but the Arab world does not…it doesn’t suit their economic and social plans. Israeli expansionism is a major roadblock to peace, but Arab promoted and supported hostilities is a greater threat. If you want to follow the money look the the UAR…they are the greatest beneficiaries of the Palestinian suffering. Find a term for them that equals “Zionist.” Too many “progressives” in this country have jumped on the “Zionism” bandwagon without doing their homework.

  77. wayside616,

    Sorry, just following the money…
    and who gets the media representation…
    and who doesn’t have to follow ANY of the rules
    regarding nuclear and other arms disclosure, or adhere to the UN’s resolutions or recommendations…
    and who runs most of our nation’s security…
    and who has benefitted the most from the war on terror…

    Don’t confuse Zionism with Israel. Just as you should not confuse Dominionism with Christianity. The neocons and zionists are united in their goals.

  78. http://alaskadispatch.com/voices/tundra-talk/7164-how-is-elitist-ayn-rand-a-tea-party-hero

    reprint of a CSM commentary

    Goes to the heart of questions I have for Tea Party neighbors…
    Ms Rand really did not care for or about everyday people…

  79. Americans proved during Prohibition that if they want a drink they were going to get it. Even when our government made a constitutional amendment and called out our own troops they couldn’t stop us from getting what we wanted. So why do we fight the war on drugs in the same way. It is a war that has already been proven to be impossible to win. I propose making drugs legal and regulating their use.

    Back when I did a paper on this about 10 or so years ago, a $200 a day heroin habit could be manufactured for $5 in a factory setting. By legalization we would economically win because there is no way the black market could maintain itself at those prices.

    Lets continue to use this $5 heroic habit as an example. We charge $25 for that same amount. All profits go towards free rehab when people are ready to quit and drug education. At this point the war on drugs becomes self funding. No more tax dollars need be spent.

    Set the age at 21 and make people attend a class that educated them as to what they are about to do to themselves and licenses them to be able to buy. Allow certain jobs such as bus drivers, air traffic controllers, and the like to discriminate against those who use.

    It is estimated that about 50% of crimes committed has a tie to drugs. By winning this war we eliminate nearly that same amount of crime.

    With all the tax dollars that are freed up from fighting the war on drugs, that money could be put to giving everyone free higher education, increased health care, and or save social security. All the people who were getting hurt, the innocent by stander if you will, is now shifted to the people who use. Not to sound harsh, but I would rather let a person self destruct than have another innocent die in a drive by shooting.

    In this single act, we have shifted the harm to those that would have done the crime, thus protecting the innocent, reduced crime by a huge percentage, made the war on drugs self funded, and created a revenue source that could be used to fund many programs that serve the nation as a whole.

  80. Don’t know what you all have going on where you live but Mr repeal-the-17th-amendment, defund the government, get rid of federal minimum wage, social security, regulation of commerce, constitutionally challenged Miller is lying all over your TVs and newspapers

    http://www.adn.com/2010/10/18/1507982/questions-surround-use-of-security.html

    If anyone you know stands up for him, please pass on his lies… we are having a hard time getting them out of the state…
    He’s ignoring us in favor of prancing around on the national stage…
    also… he’s lying about the lil woopsie at his work… what he fessed up to about using co-workers’ computers to run an interparty battle to get rid of the state party chair is not even the tip of the iceberg…

  81. We’re working hard here to get ourselves shed of Joe Miller

    http://alaskadispatch.com/dispatches/politics/7195-witness-reporter-was-rude-but-not-a-threat

    While he was busy “making things up” on national TV yesterday one of our neighbors was telling a different story.

  82. Poolman,

    Sorry, but your videos are part of the “all roads lead to Israel” mentality that I find distasteful, dangerous and inaccurate. This is the “secret Jew” seed.

  83. I’m with you, Pip, though I won’t be manning up!

  84. Are we really going to put all this energy into electing Obama and mow just walk away? Man up Dems!!!!

  85. This will help explain all the Islamaphobia.

    Hate mongers among us.

    It’s all in the timing. :wink:

  86. This is an interesting drug fact. Before we invaded Afghanistan, the Taliban had eliminated Opium production by 94 percent. Now, after we’ve been there for near a decade the country is the top producer in the world.

  87. Cool. Then this should be an easy $1K for you.

    http://zeitgeistchallenge.com/

  88. I am familiar with everything that was put into zeitgeist which I have watched several times.

    For the purpose of being able to have a conversation on the topic I would rephrase to the supposed war on drugs

  89. The war on drugs, like the war on terror are made up wars and won’t end until we refuse to fund them. period.

  90. Noah,

    No speculating, just the facts…

    NO Black Boxes were found from 3 of the 4 commercial planes involved on 9/11. The 1 that was found was located at the Pentagon site. The data on it has NOT BEEN RELEASED to the public. That IS the information contained in the commission’s report. That IS the official story.

    I then question how you can assert, “The block box recorder in the planes that crashed into the towers recording them and they were indeed calling out to the God and doing this in his name.”

    You are basing your argument on fantasy. There are no such evidences to support your conspiracy theory. I think someone is just yanking your chain.

    More strictly facts…

    This was a well-planned and coordinated attack in broad daylight. This was 2 airplanes crashing into steel buildings that WERE ENGINEERED FOR AIRPLANE impacts and hurricanes.

    These 2 airplanes made the twin towers AND a 3rd building, 47 stories tall and a FOOTBALL FIELD distance away fall. World Trade 7 was built in 1987 and a then a whole structure was built inside of it in 1988. They ALL JUST DISINTEGRATED and fell into their footprints, a first EVER occurence and now 3 TIMES IN 1 DAY!

    Part of the official story says the FAA and NORAD systems were simultaneously compromised. Are you familiar with Able Danger and Lt. Colonel Anthony Shaffer? You know the one. We ALL just bought his book, we just can’t read it. The Pentagon just bought all 10,000 copies and destroyed them.

    Just the facts. No speculating. No sniping.

  91. So new topic. If I could show you a radical way to end the war on drugs victoriously in a single day, and cut crime by upwards of 50%, would you support it?

  92. poolman, I really do understand you dont believe 9/11 went down as the official story said. You have nothing to prove to me, I actually think there are valid arguments to back it up in Zeitgeist. However it is currently all speculation and that makes it hard to use it as a point to validate an argument on any particular issue.

  93. Your right wayside616, with you commenting on what you interpret I say rather than what I actually say and putting words in my mouth I didn’t say its probably better we agree to disagree and move on.

  94. wayside616 Point by point.
    You state: The block box recorder in the planes that crashed into the towers recording them and they were indeed calling out to the God and doing this in his name. The people they are affiliated with claim what they are doing is in the name of their religion. There is such overwhelming evidence that supports this that if you truly believe otherwise then we will have to agree to disagree.

    I state: “The 9/11 Commission Report backs the FBI’s story, flatly stating: “The CVRs and FDRs from American 11 and United 175 were not found.” Please provide me with references and proof that the black box recorders were ever recovered and furthermore that “The people they are affiliated with claim what they are doing is in the name of their religion. “

    You state: “I state: What does the number of Muslims killed have to do with anything? Islam forbids the killing of innocents, ” and the rest of the paragraph.
    You are arguing points of irrelevant semantics and being an apologist. Again the “why” they do what they did is apparent to everyone else.

    I state: What are you talking about? Semantics? Apologist? I am stating facts. You seemed to dismiss the followers of Islam who were killed in the Towers by this statement: ““While there were Muslims that were killed as well they are a significant minority.” Try reading what you post…it has meaning.

    You state: This hallowed ground thing has you a tad confused so let me start anew. I made this term of hollowed ground up in this instance as to why they not being there shouldn’t be an issue. It is not important to them to be there because of the location of this particular piece of land. It is however important to the people who lost those they loved. Even if your not willing to give any rights or consideration to those families I am.

    I state: First, don’t poison the well with a cheap statement like “Even if your (sic) not willing to give any rights or consideration to those families I am.” It’s a cheap trick and does nothing at all for your argument. Second, it IS important for the Community Center to be there…it is there Constitutional right and allowing someone to negate that right is extremely important. I find it strange that you don’t find a clothing factory to be ill suited for “hallowed ground.” How about a McDonald’s?

    You state: “I state: The establishment of the Community Center is guaranteed and protected by the Constitution of the United States, not by some book of etiquette. Whether we find it in poor taste or not has nothing at all to do with the situation. I find strip malls highly offensive but I don’t see to have them forbidden”
    Yet another poor analogy. No atrocity was commuted at the local strip mall. Again even if you wont show any compassion to the tremendous loss I will. I find that there are exceptions in the case of extraordinary circumstances. This definitely qualifies. I don’t believe laws should be blindly followed as no law is perfect. Few would argue that all laws should b e strictly adhered too even when they are found to be in error.

    I state: Your blind rage shows through here. “ No atrocity was commuted (sic)at the local strip mall.” Tell me what atrocity was committed at the Community Center? You conflate the attack on the Towers with the Community Center. The atrocity took place at the Towers, not the Center. The attack was carried out by murderers, not by a people. For some reason you cannot discern the differences I just pointed out. Again, stop poisoning the well with cheap statements like, “Again even if you wont show any compassion to the tremendous loss I will.” I will continue to discuss this with you if you can keep it on a factual basis. I’m not attacking you, I’m attacking your arguments.

    You state: “I state: You are completely incorrect. Although you may not like to hear it the “chickens coming home to roost” was an accurate portrayal of 9/11.”
    The entirety of your argument is reviled here. You are either a non citizen who hates this country/government or your a citizen who hates his country or government. Either way if you don’t like it there are planes going out every day. Since you feel the U.S. deserved to be attacked you and I are at an impasse. Regardless of what I feel about any other country I would never believe that 3000 innocents deserved to be killed, Period.

    I state: You have run out of logic, arguments and time. I won’t allow this to degenerate into a childish name calling session. To debrief you, I am a citizen, I went to war for this country from November of 1966 through March of 1967. Nowhere have I stated that innocent people deserved to die. That is a spin that government and corporate apologists place on statements made by those who refuse to blindly follow false claims of patriotism. Please peddle that to someone else, I’m not buying any of it.

    You state: “I state: I think it is you, my friend, who should do some research” and the rest of the paragraph. Apples and Oranges.
    Fact. They attacked our aircraft on multiple occasions. The act of firing on someone is a hostile act. Your feelings of legality are irrelevant. You claimed there was no hostile action. You are wrong.

    I state: Attacking aircraft flying in a hostile fashion in your airspace is not an aggressive act, it’s a defensive act.

    You state: “I state: Imagined slaughter??? The Iraq Body Count”
    It was war.

    I state: Please reference the declaration of war. It was not a war, it was an invasion. Once again, get your facts straight.

    You state: They ignored U.N. resolutions for more than 18 months. They were warned time and again to comply and they chose not to. As an apologist I can understand why you would call war casualties as a slaughter.

    I state: Once again, leave the name calling out if you can. “U.N. Resolutions?” Israel has ignore 32 of them…do you want to invade them?

    You state: ” I state: I already stated that Saddam was no poster boy for peace and love. He was an evil human being. I hate to break this to you, but the world is ruled by evil human beings. George W. Bush invaded a country, killed hundreds of thousands, and justified it with a series of lies. Do you consider that evil? I do.
    To support what he did because you think George Bush is evil again proves out my theory that your (A) an apologist and (B) dislike this country and its government, thus your point of view on this matter. There comes a time when people of good councilors cannot stand idly by and watch others do evil things. To say, “well its everywhere” so I can’t do anything makes you no better than those that did the deed.

    I state: Your willingness to dismiss the killing of over 100,000 civilians in an invasion predicated on lies and half truths baffles me. You seem to be willing to condemn others with statements such as, “There comes a time when people of good councilors cannot stand idly by and watch others do evil things.” but you will stand idly by and watch 100,000 killed for no reason. Do you see anything hypocritical in that thinking? Where do you see me offering any support for what Saddam did? Point it out or please retract your statement.

    Once again, if you care to continue this please refrain from the ad hominem attacks and stick to facts. Otherwise you will be having a one way conversation.

  95. poolman, I find it “funny” that the black boxes, the things that are made to withstand crashes, were never found, however they managed to find most of the hijackers passports? .. cowinky>?? mmm I don’t think so.

  96. “The block box recorder in the planes that crashed into the towers recording them and they were indeed calling out to the God and doing this in his name.” – Noah

    Where did you get this info? The only one they have admitted to find is the one hitting the Pentagon and they haven’t declassified that one yet. We don’t know what is on it and it records more than just voice data. Altitudes and path and trajectory.
    http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/blackboxes.html

    Ask yourself why the government would spend only 15 million on the investigation of 9/11 – that after the commission told them they needed a lot more than the 3 million they were originally alloted.

    The government spent 30 million to get to the bottom of the Monica Lewinsky case! Twice (not accounting for inflation)the amount and for a sex scandal!

    The government spent 175 million on the Challenger space shuttle disaster. It spent $152 million on the the Columbia disaster investigation.

    You need to lookup the term “false flag” operation.

  97. error correction “people of good conscious

  98. wayside616 Point by point.

    The block box recorder in the planes that crashed into the towers recording them and they were indeed calling out to the God and doing this in his name. The people they are affiliated with claim what they are doing is in the name of their religion. There is such overwhelming evidence that supports this that if you truly believe otherwise then we will have to agree to disagree.

    “I state: What does the number of Muslims killed have to do with anything? Islam forbids the killing of innocents, ” and the rest of the paragraph.

    You are arguing points of irrelevant semantics and being an apologist. Again the “why” they do what they did is apparent to everyone else.

    This hallowed ground thing has you a tad confused so let me start anew. I made this term of hollowed ground up in this instance as to why they not being there shouldn’t be an issue. It is not important to them to be there because of the location of this particular piece of land. It is however important to the people who lost those they loved. Even if your not willing to give any rights or consideration to those families I am.

    “I state: The establishment of the Community Center is guaranteed and protected by the Constitution of the United States, not by some book of etiquette. Whether we find it in poor taste or not has nothing at all to do with the situation. I find strip malls highly offensive but I don’t see to have them forbidden”

    Yet another poor analogy. No atrocity was commuted at the local strip mall. Again even if you wont show any compassion to the tremendous loss I will. I find that there are exceptions in the case of extraordinary circumstances. This definitely qualifies. I don’t believe laws should be blindly followed as no law is perfect. Few would argue that all laws should b e strictly adhered too even when they are found to be in error.

    “I state: You are completely incorrect. Although you may not like to hear it the “chickens coming home to roost” was an accurate portrayal of 9/11.”

    The entirety of your argument is reviled here. You are either a non citizen who hates this country/government or your a citizen who hates his country or government. Either way if you don’t like it there are planes going out every day. Since you feel the U.S. deserved to be attacked you and I are at an impasse. Regardless of what I feel about any other country I would never believe that 3000 innocents deserved to be killed, Period.

    “I state: I think it is you, my friend, who should do some research” and the rest of the paragraph. Apples and Oranges.

    Fact. They attacked our aircraft on multiple occasions. The act of firing on someone is a hostile act. Your feelings of legality are irrelevant. You claimed there was no hostile action. You are wrong.

    “I state: Imagined slaughter??? The Iraq Body Count”

    It was war. They ignored U.N. resolutions for more than 18 months. They were warned time and again to comply and they chose not to. As an apologist I can understand why you would call war casualties as a slaughter.

    ” I state: I already stated that Saddam was no poster boy for peace and love. He was an evil human being. I hate to break this to you, but the world is ruled by evil human beings. George W. Bush invaded a country, killed hundreds of thousands, and justified it with a series of lies. Do you consider that evil? I do.

    To support what he did because you think George Bush is evil again proves out my theory that your (A) an apologist and (B) dislike this country and its government, thus your point of view on this matter. There comes a time when people of good councilors cannot stand idly by and watch others do evil things. To say, “well its everywhere” so I can’t do anything makes you no better than those that did the deed.

  99. Hi all -

    We had some friends up for the weekend; I just received an email from the mother of Lucas, a precocious nine year-old. To wit:

    “Jim – this is an actual conversation I had with Lucas this morning. (Lucas is a nine year-old boy)

    Me: From an historical standpoint, Jesus was a really cool guy. He cared for the poor, healed the sick and spoke out against false displays of righteousness. He was awesome. So awesome, in fact, that a lot of people worship him as a god.

    Lucas: So they confuse him with Zeus?”

    Made my day. From the mouths of babes…

  100. fanned wayside,

    you have been very clear in your facts and in your opinions.

    namaste

  101. Thanks “muchomisimo” ,Wayside616…unfortunately there remains who remained “LOCKED” in “their” premises and refuse to look at the factuals/facts. Few are aware that in Afghanistan, during the spring of 2001, the Bush administration were negotiating with the Taliban over “access” routings (for “energy” concerns) but were being stalled as the Taliban were NOT excited about having “western footprints” on THEIR landscape(just as the Saudi’s , who were aware of the use and informed the US the need to exit off their land in appeasement of THEIR radical forces…) They, the Taliban folks OFFERED UP OSAMA at THAT TIME, the US REFUSED , still pressing for what they considered vital “access” and retorted with a promise of basically, give US the access or “we will give you a carpet of gold OR A CARPET OF BOMBS”….hence not far down the line, the Taliban aligned with Osama for their own “self preservation/protection” …WE got 911 and they, the Taliban did indeed get a carpet of BOMBS .
    The USalong with OTHER in the GLOBAL economy whose interests /profits involve “oil” primarily for their “fortunes”/power influence/etc…review THE largest OIL concerns…) were indeed trying to accomodate the ‘friendly” Saudis and were in search of an alternate “location” and what better spot than IRAQ with the worlds second LARGEST oil supply…THAT is truly THE main reason Bush and company (true oil men) went for Iraq…They TRULY believed it WAS going to be a BIG EZ; they were aware Saddam was BLUFFING and in TRUTH “weak” in “resources” fr the embargo had taken tolls. When folks bring up the “gassing” of his OWN people…they fail to note WE HAD SUPPLIED AND TRAINED…Iraq had been in conflict WITH IRAN and we supported and supplied SADDAM during that time(and did as well leave some to hang as was in OUR (nations) best intereststhat can be further dissected and explained/etc ut was for economic interests)
    It ALL is rather a tangled web and a great deal of deceivement has gone into it all.
    The PNAC papers described how those in and around discussed how WHAT was needed was a “NEW Pearl Harbor event ” that could be utilyzed to gain “popular” citizen support for aggressive steps. The PNAC group was /is an interesting consortium of folks…Cheney and others part of the group..members were put into various high level positions..World Bank and other as well..Some DID get SO(ME “exposure”, some had to be moved along but did NOT go far…simply back behind “curtains” and they ARE still powerful players.
    Presently, there remains a true struggle and of course the desire to regain the “reins” of power which again would empower them to continue their “agenda”…They have done an excellent job of controlling the messages sent out to the citizenry…It remains a very scary time as too many are NOT FACT CHECKING–understandable for it IS rather overwhelming and generally speaking, “we” have “OUR” general everyday ives to tend/contend/struggle with/etc….that is most unfortunate for it truly IS “OUR” country slipping away from serving US and OUR greater common good.
    Gibbons”Rise and Fall of Rome”…seems a parallel to US these days more than ever. WE, the USA are on quite a “brink” and our choices will have consequences regarding our nations future for sure…There are indeed “OTHERS” waiting to “replace” us as number one/etc…We the people truly NEED to pay attention but we , the people are inflicted with too many with ADD, short attention spans do NOT serve us all that well and do us ALL a great dis-service. This Nov. election IS important..but seemingly(unseemingly really) few to none of the “contenders” really have a good grip on the reality of what is truly at stake nor does it seem the voters are suffieciently aware either. Quite a TRUE quagmire that we ALL are in the midst of.
    Reality and TRUTH facts/factuals) are difficult and it seems FEW are truly handle such.

  102. wayside616, very clearly stated. I don’t see how anyone could not understand what you’re saying.

  103. Noah,

    You state: “wayside616 I think you misread everything I said. First about Timothy, I said he did NOT do it for religions reasons, that he was fighting with the Government.”

    I state: I didn’t disagree with the fact that McVeigh acted against the government, I disagree with the fact that you seem to believe that those that attacked us on 9/11 did so out of religious fervor instead of “fighting with the Government.” That is why I stated that they didn’t attack us for being a Christian nation, the attacked us as a result of our governments actions. See the difference?

    You state: “I lived less than 20 miles from where Timothy McVeigh lived. He did not bomb the Oklahoma building for religious reasons. He was fighting against our government for how it did things. This is a poor comparison.”

    I state: See my answer above.

    You state: “While there were Muslims that were killed as well they are a significant minority. Like many things in life it is rare to find a perfect solution.”

    I state: What does the number of Muslims killed have to do with anything? Islam forbids the killing of innocents, “…So We decreed for the tribe of Israel that if someone kills another person – unless it is in retaliation for someone else or for causing corruption in the earth – it is as if he had murdered all mankind. And if anyone gives life to another person, it is as if he had given life to all mankind. (Surat al-Maida: 32)” so those who committed the acts on 9/11 were not acting as Muslims but as murderers.

    You state: “Again, this isn’t hallowed Muslim ground we are talking about here. There is no religious significance other than a way to declare victory over their enemy.”

    I state: This isn’t “hallowed ground” at all. It is a murder scene. The “hallowed ground” reference was created by those who use it as a justification for vengeance and bigotry.

    You state: “I just don’t see any compelling argument why it should be there and trump the rights of those that perished.”

    I state: The establishment of the Community Center is guaranteed and protected by the Constitution of the United States, not by some book of etiquette. Whether we find it in poor taste or not has nothing at all to do with the situation. I find strip malls highly offensive but I don’t see to have them forbidden.

    You state: “Someone else made the same analogy about the Church and Oklahoma. Again Timothy didn’t attack for religious reasons. The Muslims did do it in the name of their religion. Again poor analogy.”

    I state: You are completely incorrect. Although you may not like to hear it the “chickens coming home to roost” was an accurate portrayal of 9/11. The United States had been engaged in the corporate colonialization of the mid-east for decades. Our actions were seen as aggressive and offensive to a growing number of the inhabitants of that area. I don’t justify the actions of 9/11…the slaughter of innocents can never be justified…but the root cause can be traced to the actions of the government of the United States, not the religion of those who flew the planes.

    You state: “As far as invading Iraq. You claim they never made a hostile act. Recheck your facts. For the almost 2 years they were in defiance of U.N. sanctions they were shooting at our planes doing fly overs in the southern parts of Iraq. Also as part of the U.N. we should be backing them when their sanctions are not being adhered too.”

    I state: I think it is you, my friend, who should do some research. United Nations Security Council Resolution 688, which the U.S., Great Britain and France used as a rationale for creating the “no fly zone,” never called for such an act. As a matter of fact The Secretary General of the United Nations called the no fly zones “illegal.” How would you feel if a foreign power arbitrarily declared a section above the United States as a “no fly zone?” France eventually withdrew its support for this action leaving the U.S. and Great Britain alone in this illegal action.

    You state: “As for this imagined slaughter you speak of,”

    I state: Imagined slaughter??? The Iraq Body Count Project establishes these figures for civilian deaths: 98,252 – 107,235. That’s CIVILIANS. You don’t consider that a slaughter. We lost 3,500 on 9/11…you want to compare that with 107,000?

    You state: “do you recall when Sadam gassed one of his own villages where some 5000+ of his own countrymen perished?”

    I state: I already stated that Saddam was no poster boy for peace and love. He was an evil human being. I hate to break this to you, but the world is ruled by evil human beings. George W. Bush invaded a country, killed hundreds of thousands, and justified it with a series of lies. Do you consider that evil? I do.

    You state: If you could please elaborate further because I am not understanding the point your trying to make.

    I state: I think if you re-read my posting here you might understand the point(s) I am trying to make.

  104. I think cancer is a result of the breakdown of our natural immune system. Over time and due to exposure to toxic elements and much radiation, the human OS corrupts. We’re sending waves through our atmosphere and us that disrupt our natural rhythms. We’re breathing, drinking, eating, living in things made of petroleum byproducts and other known carcinogens. Our diets and our environment help breakdown our natural defenses, accumulating toxins that we can’t always expel. Just my observations.

    I’ve have know plenty who have died from cancer, others that have survived it, and a few that have been healed of it. Cancer is ugly. It’s like the leprosy of yesteryear.

  105. PFesser, it is true that if you raise a child a certain way, those teachings will be the default OS, especially if reinforced continually and observed as habit within the home environment.

    It works for good and bad. It is harder to break out from those set guidelines in later life. The Bible even says to train up a child in the way they should be, and when they are old they will not depart from it. There is real truth in that.

    We all have our own unique quirks and preferences. It is a part of who we are. I also believe there are inherited strengths and weaknesses. Spiritual tendencies along with talents and gifts that follow a family, much like genetic factors that are shared and passed down. Believers cite bonds of generational sin, passed from parents to their offspring on down the line.

    These generational sins can be broken with a spiritual rebirth. Commonly referred to as born again. It is like installing a new OS. It does tend to require an occasional reboot since we tend to fall back into old familiar patterns.

    I was brought up Catholic and even was an altarboy in my early teens. I did not know God then and further drifted to embrace many theories, always searching for truth and meaning. It wasn’t until my early 20′s while on an acid trip I was watching Jesus of Nazareth on teevee and I got scared I had missed the rapture, that I began to think I would really re-examine the God of the Bible. The girl I was living with was brought up as a Baptist and was a born again believer, but extremely outside living the faith. However, just the few things she had shared were always bouncing through my conscience. I came to the point where I decided Jesus was real and I asked Him to come into my heart and rule. I heard His audible voice for the first time when I did just that. Since then it has been a journey of purpose, yet I have not always yielded to His authority. A true believer dies to self daily and lives for God. Like Paul of the new testament who was Saul before his conversion, my life is not my own. I am a coin in God’s pocket. There for him to spend how He so desires. There is my Christianity in a nutshell for you.

  106. Hi Congenial Gang,

    This family feud between Christians and Muslims, who were originally all Semitic people, has been going on now for over 1500 years. I guess it is important for some people to keep it going. This is only one of countless stories of conflicts.

    Carcassonne is a city in Southern France not far from the Mediterranean. It is a walled city that survived some 3000 years through conquering Gauls, Romans, Visigoths, Saracens and what came to be known as the Crusade against the Albigensians. Better fortified than most medieval cities, it has two walls and a moat. It withstood one of those sieges by its wits.

    During the eighth century, the Muslim had possession of the city (as well as much of Southern France and all of the Iberian Peninsula for some 700 years. That’s SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS!)

    A Saracen princess, Lady Carcas was in charge of defending against the prolonged assault by Charlemagne and his forces. He was the Christian Holy Roman Emperor who unified Europe, by conquest of course.

    Some accounts claim the siege of Carcassonne lasted five years. That was a lengthy time for Lady Carcas to become familiar with the 6’6” dashing figure of the Holy Roman Emperor – at least from afar. Now, this is a legend. The word ‘legend’ should not be confused with the word ‘fact’!!! Since none of us have been witness to most events, past or present outside our own backyards, ‘legend’ is a useful word.

    The Christian attackers were starving the city behind the fortification of its walls. Lady Carcas instructed the soldiers to go house to house and confiscate any food. The city was down to only a few baskets of grain and a pig that an old woman had concealed. These pitiful provisions were certainly not enough to feed the garrison let alone the inhabitants. Further, the Muslim soldiers were forbidden to eat pork.

    Lady Carcas ordered the wheat to be force-fed to the pig. The hapless swine was then thrown over the wall. Legend says that it landed at the feet of Charlemagne and burst open with the grain spilling onto the ground. Charlemagne surmised, just as Lady Carcas hoped he would, that the city was well provisioned and could continue to withstand the siege. After all, if they could afford to toss food over the wall, then they could withstand the siege indefinitely. Charlemagne ordered his men to cease the attack and leave.

    Dear Lady Carcas had apparently become enamored by the sight of the tall Emperor warrior, and could not bear the thought of never seeing him again. So she changed her mind, rang the chimes of the church bells throughout the city to call him back and surrendered to him.

    The name of the city of Carcassone is not derived from the French word, ”carcasse”, the carcass of the wheat-filled pig as some might presume. It is from Carcas, the Muslim princess who “sonne” (French for rings) the bells to call back her beloved Charlemagne.

    The Holy Roman Emperor took the city but rebuffed Lady Carcas, giving her to one of his compatriots. He didn’t need her anyway since he already had four wives, five or more mistresses and 18 children.

    The union of the Muslim princess and the Christian warrior produced the dynasties of the Counts and Viscounts of Trencavel of Carcassone that survived until the Crusade Siege in 1209 against the Albigensians, (a Christian heretical sect., four hundred years after the adventures of Carcas and Charlemagne.) The city fell to the Crusaders but was not destroyed. Most of the inhabitants managed to flee.

    Of course, nowadays, all we would have to do is lob a few missiles from a nice safe distance, kill everybody and destroy everything. Then we could sit back and justify any number of reasons (excuses) why we did it. Religion has always been one of the best rationalizations.

    Carcassonne is now a beautifully preserved old medieval walled city. It is very often used as a set and backdrop for movies of that time period. It is a major attraction for those of us interested in climbing and tramping around the ramparts of an old citadel.

    “One wonders, in looking back upon these faiths, [and others], whether they brought as much consolation as terror to humanity. Religions of hope and love are a luxury of security and order. The need for striking fear into a subject or rebellious people made most primitive religions, cults of mystery and dread.” This quote is from Will Durant, Historian.

    Aren’t we glad we are so civilized now?

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom.

    Auntie Jean

  107. http://www.alaskadispatch.com/dispatches/news/7186-breaking-alaska-dispatch-editor-detained-at-miller-event

    I am so hoping our tea party candidate realizes he just burned the toast today… the state may be big, but the people are few…
    Mr Miller blew it… again…
    His lil party may just be over after today…

  108. Poolman -

    re: your link to article “cancer is manmade”

    The prevalence of cancer has a lot to do with old-fashioned evolution: it tends to be a constant companion to man for the same reason it is a disease of old people, because there is no selective pressure against it.

    Once you have our children, you are evolutionarily dead. If you get cancer when you are young, it reduces your ability to pass your genes on, so young cancer-getters are selected out of the gene pool. If you get it when you already have children, it’s just nature’s way of cleaning up the debris. Universally fatal if untreated – as it has been throughout history – it kills you and keeps you from competing with your offspring for resources.

    As they say, Mother Nature is a bitch.

  109. Poolman -

    I have observed that you bring your god into most of the really important questions, so it seems to me you take your religion seriously. I have a serious question for you, from someone trying to understand religion.

    My POV, can be best summed up by way of example. An acquaintance of mine has an interesting take on sexual fetishes: Her theory is that if you are not into, say feet for example, you are incapable of understanding what it is about feet that make them exciting to a foot fetishist, no matter how hard you try. Ditto all the other little variations that make sex fun. She thinks people are hardwired, and what you like, you like. What you don’t, you don’t understand – and cannot, ever.

    I am that way about religion: I am genuinely baffled that folks can be serious about it. That is not an insult; it is a genuine, from-the-heart fact.

    I am about 1/3 way through Mencken’s Treatise on the Gods. He talks about the importance of inculcating children with religion early, if it is going to take. He says someone who comes to religion as an adult is always suspect to become a backslider, but if you can get a child up to about twelve, it’s over – there is no way for him to ever become an unbeliever, even if he wants to. I am trying to reconcile what I understand with what I SEE; it seems to me that persistent religion must be the result of early training.

    What are your thoughts on that? If you don’t mind sharing, were you taken to church as a child, or did you come to it as an adult? And how do you reconcile the myriad of paradoxes and contradictions without just throwing up your hands and saying, “What a load of rubbage!?”

    Again, Mencken is fascinating. Highly recommended.

  110. These are the real terrorists that we need to go after and eliminate.

    http://www.i-sis.org.uk/argentinasRoundupHumanTragedy.php

    Especially given the knowledge we have.

    http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-10-scientists-cancer-purely-man-made.html

    Afterall, science should be used to better mankind rather than strictly profit commerce. These huge corporations are killing us – literally.

  111. America’s strategy in Afghanistan isn’t working.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/opinion/17kristof.html?_r=1

    “They break my heart by wondering aloud whether the Russians or the Americans were worse for the Afghan people.”

    Come home quickly to the USA, young men and women in uniform, I pray. We desperately need you back here to help aid in the returning of this country to the republic our constitution demands. It may be the most patriotic thing you can do for your country. Commerce has overtaken the republic and the hearts of our saints and is greatly ravaging the resources of this great land. The agents of commerce are promoting criminal acts and rewarding and protecting the criminals perpetrating these activities. The rule of law is not administered equally to all, as justice demands. Our mutual wealth is being squandered in foreign nations where many of you risk your lives daily. You are there. You can see the truth. May He open your eyes to His wisdom, I pray. May He keep you separate from evil. May His peace be your peace and safety. May He go before you and bathe you in the Light of His Spirit, I pray.

    It’s always the same battle anyway, with many different faces. Good v Evil. Get to know the right rhythm.

    Peace, always.

  112. Poolman,
    Curious.
    How do you know about 3 bullet holes close together?
    Did you have access to the autopsy? Or has it been published?
    I did read the Wikipedia version of Tillman’s life.
    It did say one doc did not regard the wounds as consistent with the stated battle that occurred.
    And yes it did say that Tillman was an agnostic if not atheist as quoted by his brother.

    That aside, which I don’t discount, is not the norm but the exception. The WTC is another argument for another time.

    And as for the bible and it’s quotations. Written by several or more than that and compiled over hundreds of years…gives us many opportunities to pick and choose our battles.
    Lets just agree to disagree.
    Peace Bro.

  113. Hello Craig,

    To defend the constitution seems noble and I think it important, considering it is under constant attack. Most of the enemies over the years have been domestic, imo. We lost a lot of ground when the SCOTUS gave corporations person status recently. Where was the military then? Why aren’t we prosecuting those in leadership that desecrate it? Look how that injustice is playing out in the present political campaigns.

    When a professed atheist like Pat Tillman questioned the illegal invasion of Iraq and the scam being perpetrated by his superiors, he was eliminated and his real demise covered over with his death bandied as heroic to further promote the agenda of the military. A close grouping of 3 bulletholes between his eyes from close range is not an accidental kill, nor “friendly” fire. Destroying his uniform and gear before any investigation can be done reeks of the same elimination and destruction of evidence from the World Trade Center disaster. What is there to hide? These things were hidden by those in charge. What gives them immunity? Those are the ones that truly are the domestic enemies of the constitution. You think they care about the people under their governance? Is this the way you treat your valued assets? I think not. Merely lip service.

    The Catholic faith, though claiming to be Christian, does not follow the teachings of Jesus entirely. Mary, though blessed, was merely human. Glorifying her above Jesus is a daily practice in Catholicism. We are not to pray to people, saintly or not. We need no human priest or pope to communicate with God. The scriptures tell us Jesus takes that role for us. I have met many true believers that claim to be Catholic, yet the church teachings are ritualistic and enslaving. The Catholic Church has kept many truths from the masses and the Vatican is a corrupt entity.

    Mormons are a christian cult. Jesus Christ is not God to them, nor is salvation a gift of faith, but rather of works, which goes against His teachings.

    So if you want to understand true Christianity, refer to the gospels. Jesus is the model. If it doesn’t resemble Him or follow His teachings, then it is not genuine. As Christians, we are to spread the good news (the meaning of gospel) to all nations. The good news is that there is an alternative to human rule and suffering, poverty, hate, anger, oppression, sickness, hunger, disease, etc. For those who wish to repent (turn from these things), there is a way and that way is to become reborn spiritually into the body of believers under the authority of God in the person of Jesus. This isn’t nation building. This is kingdom building. A spiritual kingdom, not an earthly domain. This is probably the most misunderstood of assignments from God. Our enemies are not flesh and blood. Our enemies are spiritual, the forces of this world. The forces that oppose good. The forces that oppress and tear down. The forces that promote war. The forces that create unrest and division.

    The account of David and Goliath is a good example. If you are familiar with the story, and not just the mainstream media version, you will note that God used David as an example of His might and power. The Israelites were being taunted daily by the Phillistine army and Goliath, a true giant with four giant brothers. David had a heart for God. As a mere boy, he saw this taunting, and being full of faith, accepted the challenge knowing God was all powerful and could win over this heathen that was blaspheming Him on a continual and daily basis. He was not comfortable with the armor and weaponry provided by King Saul, but rather faced the enemy with the weapon he was familiar from protecting his flock from intruders while shepherding. God gave him success because of his unyielding spirtual faith, not due to superior size or weaponry. Not by power, not by might, but by my Spirit, says the Lord. (Zechariah 4:6)

    If you want to dwell in the old testament, note that Israel ALWAYS lost when they did not seek the will of God before acting. God first then, God first now. It hasn’t changed in that respect. This is a spiritual journey, the force behind the physical. The forces that hold everything in place and manifests in the physical world we see.

    Let’s worry about getting our own house in order before we tell others how to live. It sounds noble to say our war in Afghanistan is to help them live free, yet they don’t perceive it so. We are seen as just the latest to oppress them and occupy their land. Many sources confirm this. Let’s pray this war ends soon and we support all our troops by bringing then home.

    Peace.

  114. Poolman,

    United States Military Oath
    I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

    Now I realize we are probably on polar opposite sides of the military and its use and reason for being. That will not change, nor will I try to.
    However take for instance..Catholics owe allegiance to the Pope probably before anything else? And perhaps the same can be said for Mormons. Perhaps this is a generalization.

    But if we were to say be neutered and have no military presence where would we have been after say 1939. Or perhaps if we had not been a dominating force against the Russians after 1945,
    What would be the borders in Europe look like?

    To say that our military are mindless robots or that there is some sinister plan whereby the non commissioned officers and regular servicemen and women are nothing but pawns then says they have had chips implanted and behave simply as ordered.

    Yes there have been times..as in the Lt. Calley
    case in Vietnam, soldiers following orders did some horrific things. But this was not a plan from the top.

    Your premise is that the military at its highest levels are godless and have no moral beliefs.

    Your God gave David a slingshot and the ability to hit a target accurately. God has numerous times in the bible provided His children the ability to defend themselves.

    Thus why is it not correct and right to use technology to hit targets of opportunity with a great degree of accuracy? Would you have us go back to stones and spears?

    At the least, the people who you say we have made or forged be it the Taliban or Muslim extremists, these enemies of today used some of the most modern of technologies with the use of four aircraft on 911 to do in a couple of hours what would have taken weeks by conventional means of demolition.

    So with the prospect of my son being on the ground in Afghanistan within two years, I say use whatever means to end or degrade the enemies
    capability to harm our troops and or civilians.
    People who just want to live without being told what to wear or who can or cannot go to school because of their sex. Things we take for granted here in America.

    Your God is my God. I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    We just have differing opinions about the interpretations of what God the Father would have us do.
    Respectfully,
    Craig

  115. [...] To America’ Replaces Affordable Care Act With Provisions From Affordable Care Act.   I like Helen and Margaret’s pledge better. It at least makes sense, I pledge that I will actually read the Constitution before [...]

  116. It’s been a good week here, don’t you think? I’d say we’ve proven it’s not dissenting opinions that we can’t stand. It’s snipers and trolls. :) I think Noah did a fine job of talking with people he disagrees with without making personal attacks and condescending remarks, and peeps here responded the same way. I don’t understand why that’s so unusual, but Noah gives me hope. People are even finding things to agree with James about, now that he’s put down his sharp stick.

    I hope you all enjoy the rest of your weekend. My first task will be subbing in for some folks at church. I’ll be shepherding preschoolers during one service and tending to the babies at another.

  117. Hi Congenial Gang and Grandma Katie,

    Grandma Katie, have you found your way over to delurkergurl’s Kitchen yet? You should. There is lots of fun stuff going on over there!

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom.

    Auntie Jean

  118. :cool: Ciao Craig….

    First of all, if you put anything first in your life before God, you are not a true follower. I don’t care if it’s people, country, or cause. I believe every branch of the service places you in violation of this relationship, part of the oaths and pledges I believe, which, by the way, DO actually obligate your happy butt (soul) to those entities.

    Of course, we have watered down reality so much today we question every word we hear and the very dirt we tread on. Don’t worry about it… The lawyers can “fix” that. Need to right a wrong? No problem, just got to know the right people or have enough cash.

    So yeah, pseudo christians is what you get from square one. I’m not saying these are necessarily bad people, just deluded. I’m sure there are many “come to God” moments, and probably many are following the path, they just aren’t ON the path. Remember hearing anything about how narrow the path? My Jesus would never pick up nor aim any man-made weaponry at another man, woman, or child. That’s the model – there isn’t an exception I’m aware of.

    Second, we have not played the defense posture for my lifetime, mostly just offense. And moreso as to instigate, MANipulate, and experiment with weapons and covert ops on our own and “inferior” other tribes for decades.

    Remember too, the Air Force is kind of thought to be at the top compared to the other branches of service. Proud and elitist. How does any of this align with the teachings of Jesus’ telling us to have a servant heart?

    I have provided plenty (probably absurdly so) of sources to shed a light on the many sins of or country especially related to government-sponsored and armed assets. If it doesn’t slap you upside your face and at least get you to question and consider, then you may need to check your for your conscience. That, if you remember where you left it. I’ll give you a hint. First check for a pulse. Then find it right in your chest where that God-given jolt every few seconds keeps you upright and sucking in the air and spirit of this world. Before you exhale, choose to release His goodness or somebody else’s rhythm – your choice, btw.

    If that doesn’t make sense, then make an appointment with the Father, who knows you better than you even know yourself. He’s always available.

    Have a blessed weekend, everyone.

    Peace! Shalom! Salaam! Ciao! :grin:

  119. wayside616 I think you misread everything I said. First about Timothy, I said he did NOT do it for religions reasons, that he was fighting with the Government.

    Next, I said that it is NOT hallowed ground for the Muslims so they are not being harmed by building somewhere else. As for why they did it I don’t exactly care why they did it, do you? The fact is they did it, and have continued to do it and will continue to do so.

    Someone else made the same analogy about the Church and Oklahoma. Again Timothy didn’t attack for religious reasons. The Muslims did do it in the name of their religion. Again poor analogy.

    Take a little more time to reread what I posted then comment.

    As far as invading Iraq. You claim they never made a hostile act. Recheck your facts. For the almost 2 years they were in defiance of U.N. sanctions they were shooting at our planes doing fly overs in the southern parts of Iraq. Also as part of the U.N. we should be backing them when their sanctions are not being adhered too. As for this imagined slaughter you speak of, do you recall when Sadam gassed one of his own villages where some 5000+ of his own countrymen perished? If you could please elaborate further because I am not understanding the point your trying to make.

  120. Craig -

    Take a look at the Military Religious Freedom Foundation. There is tremendous prosteletyzing (sp?) in the military, and it comes from the highest levels. They seek to inculcate a sense of crusade (or jihad, if you like) in the American soldiers, and now that they have been called out on it, they don’t like it very much.

    Leah Burton is good friends with one of the high-level officer whistle-blowers, who has had numerous death threats and threats of other types.

    http://godsownparty.com/blog/2010/10/god-discussion-radio-show-october-7-2010-proselytizing-in-the-military-mrff/

  121. Morning Congenial Gang,

    Fable of the porcupine:

    It was the coldest winter ever – many animals died because of the cold. The porcupines, realizing the situation, decided to group together.
    This way they covered and protected themselves and each other; but the quills of each one wounded their closest companions even though they gave off heat to each other.

    After awhile they decided to distance themselves one from the other and they began to die, alone and frozen. So they had to make a choice: either accept the quills of their companions or disappear from the earth. Wisely, they decided to go back to being together.

    This way they learned to live with the little wounds that were caused by the close relationship with their companions, but the most important part of it, was the heat that came from the others. This way they were able to survive.

    Moral of the story:
    The best relationships are not the ones that brings together perfect people, but the best are when each individual learns to live with the imperfections of others and can admire the other person’s good qualities.

    Socialism maybe?

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom.

    Auntie Jean

  122. Poolman
    What or where did you come up with the idea that the Air Force Academy or any Academy is brainwashing the cadets with pseudo christian fundamentalist theology? Yes they have a chapel on their grounds.

    And most are considered to be of the Christian faith. But to use the paint brush analogy again, how do you assume that they are mindless robots doing nothing but evil? Is it just because they perform their duties of according to the oath they tool to protect our country?

    Then you should include Obama in that same pulpit, because he took the same oath.

  123. Colorado Blue..
    You have a broad paint brush concerning Republicans and T Baggers. And to say that the Republicans are bought and paid for?
    That is probably why this Third Party movement has been formed in order to wrest away power from those who want us to become more of a socialist state. Something like along the lines of France, Italy and Greece where the people want the government to give them 3 months vacation and retirement at 60.

    It comes down to 2 years later. We have “change”.
    But are things better and looking brighter?
    The Democratic party has had a majority to move mountains and yet have pissed it away.

    Now Obama even has no idea of what he needed in the form of a stimulus or shovel ready projects and has admitted as much. Rahm going back to Chicago and staffers leaving at the midpoint of “change”, should be an indicator that things are not all good aboard the Titanic.

  124. COLORADO BLUE, I agree with your POV, except it was Sue Lowden that wanted to barter with chickens, not Sharron Angle. Sharron Angle is total looney tunes. Sue Lowden was a bit more stable and a more moderate republican, but she’s out. Thank you T Party and corporate $$$$. It’s Angle vying for Harry Reid’s seat. I think they are pretty close in the polls, too. Lunatic fringe, for sure.

  125. Noah,

    “I lived less than 20 miles from where Timothy McVeigh lived. He did not bomb the Oklahoma building for religious reasons. He was fighting against our government for how it did things. This is a poor comparison.

    While there were Muslims that were killed as well they are a significant minority. Like many things in life it is rare to find a perfect solution. Again, this isn’t hallowed Muslim ground we are talking about here. There is no religious significance other than a way to declare victory over their enemy. I just don’t see any compelling argument why it should be there and trump the rights of those that perished.”

    Your statements are absurd. Those that flew planes into the World Trade Towers didn’t do it because this is a “Christian nation,” they did it because they were “fighting against our government and how they did things” (to use your words). The previously stated analogy is apt…by your logic there should not be a Christian church within miles of the Oklahoma City. bombing. Your statement that the Muslims were in a “minority” as victims in the 9/11 attack proves exactly what? Is there some dividing line that you have established that would have allowed them to establish the community center where they want it? If the number killed were greater would that justify the construction in your mind?

    Where did this “hallowed ground” theme come from? It was the scene of a mass murder, there’s nothing “hallowed” about it. Are you saying there is some religious significance to the area where the Towers stood? If this is hallowed ground what is Hiroshima, the gates of heaven?

    The fact that you and/or 70% of this country are uncomfortable with the community center being built so close to the 9/11 attack means absolutely nothing. Were you more comfortable with invading a country that never committed a hostile act towards the U.S.? Were you comfortable with the slaughter of its people and the dismantling of its social order?

    The Constitution was written to protect the rights of the individual, not the majority. If you don’t like where the community center is located, suck it up and move on…they have the Constitution behind them.

  126. The Chamber of Commerce is NOT your friend !!!! Everytime you see a negative add against the Healthcare bill, an ad about spending money, an ad against a Democratic politician, national or state, it is being funded by The Koch Brothers and two other multi-billionaires along with huge funding from Communist China, billionaires from the Middle East, billionaires from what was once the old Communist Eastern Block and many other countries that want to have a heavy influence in our politics.

    The corrupt Supreme court ,lead by the bought and paid for Roberts and Aleito, over-turned a ruling that stood for over 100 years. They gave personhood to big businesses allowing companies from not only the US, but from any country in the world to pour as much money as they want into OUR elections so they can buy Republican Teabagging politicians who will do their bidding. You don’t think those twits from Deleware and Nevada have any clue how to be politicians do you? One practices witchcraft and the other wants to pay her bills with chickens.

    The Teabagging Republicans have been paid for by people whose goal is to see the United States and the bottom 99.9% fail. The Koch Brother’s want a Fascist Oligarchy where they and the other top 1/10 of 1% will have all the power and all the money. They want ZERO taxes on big business, heavy taxes on the middle class, they want all of our manufacturing off shore and they want to create a society of 1/10th of 1% wealthy and 99.9% poor.

    Communist China wants to put their people back to work, make their country the wealthiest in the world and influence every facet of our political system. They want us to import EVERYTHING from them where there are no regulations, people work for pennies and manufacture crap. Is this really what you want?

    Gets your heads out of your butts and quit listening to Limbaugh and the liars at Fox News………they are bought and paid for by these people as well.

    Get yourselves out and vote, vote early if you can and flip the channel on your TV when the lying commercials come on.

    The Teabagging Republican party has been purchased by countries and people who want failure for the middle class and thus failure for America. Why are you willing to let these people and countries have total influence over our country’s politics?

    Put your personal pissiness aside, get out and vote Democratic. Every Republican candidate has been brewed from the same foul teabag………..

  127. When more things are made in America, more families make it in America.

    http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/10/16/910737/-Obama:-Republicans-love-outsourcers,-I-love-small-business

    Δ

  128. Great discussion – a tough topic done with passion and dignity. Maybe we are finally on the right track.

    Hope so.

  129. The Sarah Palin 2010 Voter’s Guide:

    lori ;)

    Δ ~ PEACE

  130. Depending on upbringing, any race or religion can produce their own zombies, capable of terrorism against any other peoples race or religion.

    Teach your children well
    Their father’s hell did slowly go by
    And feed them on your dreams
    The one they pick’s the one you’ll know by

    – Graham Nash

  131. Cool. I was -4 and -3.34, so not too different. I know I have drifted left over the years. I used to be right wing all the way.

  132. Did the political test. I came out
    Economic Left/Right -2.12
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -3.33

  133. Then you got our US Air Force Academy brainwashing the cadets with pseudo christian fundamentalist theology. I’m sorry, but if you think this is real Christianity, you’re duped. I mean, what’s the difference between these guys and the Crusaders? Only the weapons. Only the weapons. Muslims are just the latest heathen to annihilate, afterall, it’s god’s will. Yeehaw! Killin’ fer Jesus!

  134. You are so right! Endust IS better than Pledge! Great blog entry, thanks for spreading some sanity…

  135. An insider’s perspective, and not too pretty.

    “I am finally convinced that a huge percentage of the American people are the worst hypocrites imaginable – considering the fact that some 80% of us claim to be “Christians”.”

    “My name is Joe Cortina. I was a 60s Green Beret commander and a representative for IBM as well as a scientist for Honeywell Aerospace in Florida. I later became President of my own manufacturing company. I have two sons and 2 granddaughters who are the reason for my dedication to expose the threats to the freedoms I hope to see them enjoy as I did many decades ago when America was still a Christian-based sovereign nation free of Zionist influence.”

  136. [...] Helen and Margaret’s Pledge to America, including, ”I pledge that I won’t hate gay people in public and then sleep with them in private.” [...]

  137. Sometime back, alaskapi posted this site that had an interesting quiz to determine where you fall in political ideology. I thought myself closer to center, but I ended up quite left and somewhat libertarian. I am registered as an independent, but have been voting primarily for dems the past few years. You might give it a go, Noah. If anything, it will help you compare your ideology to other famous characters.

    http://www.politicalcompass.org/

  138. Noah–while the titles obviously show a slant, there’s never been a suggestion of selective editing. And they also go after MSNBC and CNN when they feel they aren’t accurate. Best way to characterize it is that the site does focus more on Fox/Limbaugh et al, but that they do so by presenting the speakers’ own statements.

    As for this blog, give it a chance. We have had some great discussions about all sorts of issues. People get entrenched when someone comes on with generalizations or insults.

    You seem like a bright and reasonable person, and I’m interested in hearing what you have to say. I am confident that others are as well.

  139. Not finding it but I will keep looking Donna. I can see by the titles this website uses that they are pretty bias and agenda driven so I will have to question the source to say the least. I dislike right or left wing news sources that rather than just report the unbiased news they have to put their own slant on things.

    Much of why I take issue with a lot of what I have read on here. I don’t see much of people looking for news, enlightenment, or a real philosophical discussion. Rather I see a lot of people with minds already set in stone using anything they can find to support their way of thinking and rarely are open to an honest exploration of another s point of view. Mostly these are the posts having to do with politics.

    I attribute most of that because I consider myself a conservative democrat / independent. I don’t agree with the democrat or republican party at face vale but rather embrace ideology from both sides. Seems to me a lot of the best years in this country is when the political power was split between the two parties. The worst when either one had a majority control.

  140. Hi, Noah–listen to the clip at Media Matters. I don’t think there’s any real question about what he said. Will be interested in your take.

  141. The Crusades were small potatoes compared to what we as a “Christian nation” have and continue to do. We support terrorism everyday with our tax dollars. Most of these people, like the KKK claim to be Christian. We’ve been at it for decades. We got more money behind it than any Muslim group and it is much more brutal and wide reaching than any Arab state.

  142. I’m pinchin that for my weekend fb status K2.. Thanks for reminding me.

  143. Greatest. Pledge. Ever. I’m Canadian, but damn rights would I vote for you two!

  144. Lori (and James, Pfessor and even Noah), I’m sitting here with my mousepad which reads:

    “What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label ‘Liberal’? If by a ‘Liberal’ they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid restrictions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people — their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and they civil liberties — someone who believes that we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a ‘Liberal,’ then I’m proud to say that I’m a ‘liberal’.”
    John F. Kennedy, September 14, 1960

    And with that, everyone have a good weekend.

  145. ;-) Peas

  146. Just a thought:

    Where Good Ideas Come From

    Δ ~ PEACE

  147. James, I’m sure there are as many reactions/emotions as there are individuals who experienced that stituation.

    I suppose many are similar to you and your wife’s and I suppose many are not.

  148. I have enjoyed the discussion, but I am out of here to search for the wily Mormon trail. As soon as my wife gets home we will be gone for awhile.

  149. Lori, as you know, I am pro- choice. And yes, the constitution protects minority beliefs.

    I don’t remember my wife and my thinking much about such abstractions or when life begins. Panic was more our style. We were thinking of ending a pregnancy and maybe breaking the law before Roe V Wade. We didn’t know. We were clueless. We were seriously ending a future child. To us, that was all that mattered.

    I have never asked a woman who had an abortion what she thought about it. As you say, I am projecting our reaction onto others, and I asked the question because some of you probably have talked to women about what happens. I haven’t and don’t plan to, but I have always wondered if our experience was unique or others felt the same way.

  150. I am going to have to dig up the extended clip of that quote. I listened to it 6 times and it sounded to me as if he was quoting something someone said. He wasn’t saying it himself. Red flags go up all over when a clip is edited or cut off in that way.

  151. James, you are assuming everyone believes life begins at conception. Many do not believe that. So therefore there are many who do not believe “abortion” is anything more than a medical proceedure that only females are cabable of having.

    Your emotional reaction is based on YOUR personal beliefs. Our constitution protects the minority and their beliefs .. remember?

  152. I am not sure how to respond without you elaborating further.

  153. Fox clip:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/15/brian-kilmeade-all-terror_n_764472.html

    Noah, you modified your argument when brought Al Qaeda into it.

  154. PFessor mentioned moving onto dangerous ground, so here I am on the edge leading to the abyss. Its one thing that makes me emotional.

    My wife and I once considered an abortion when we were young and foolish. We felt trapped and spent several anguished days mulling over our decision. We didn’t do it, but a later miscarriage was also horrible. Its only a taste, I think of the hell people go through when faced with or carrying out these decisions. It hurts to imagine what those people go through when there is no other choice.

    Some of my wife’s students had abortions, and most showed little outward emotion. That doesn’t mean much to me. Anyone can fake it.

    When I was in the service, I had to take on the heart of a murderer to live. It wasn’t as impersonal as a bullet. It was up close and personal where I could look into his eyes and feel his muscles relax. I fake it pretty well, but I never got over it.

    What about women who have abortions and their partners? Is a fetus more abstract so that it doesn’t affect them in the same way as what I did affected me? Are they really able to go on relatively unscathed, or are they faking? Do they get the help they need, or are they cast adrift? I’ve heard stories both ways.

  155. Kilmeade today. Also go to Media Matters and check their clips for the last 24 hours–several others along those lines.

  156. One more suggestion and then I need to get back to work. For a very good overview, just wiki “Anti-abortion violence” and you’ll see the scope of the problem. By the way, these are the people that Sarah Palin refused to condemn as criminals or terrorists in one of her campaign interviews.

  157. The Abortion nuts were very single minded a with a particular agenda. Stopping abortion. These Al-Qaeda are hell bent on causing mass destruction and massive casualties. Again the distinction between these two groups is so vast I don’t think it requires a line to be drawn.

    I watched about 3 hours of Fox yesterday and I didn’t see anything from anyone saying all terrorists are Muslims. Could you refer me to the segment that said that so I can hear it?

  158. And Lori–Yes, Dr. Tiller was assassinated. But long before he was killed, groups such as Terry’s were calling for it. Read sometime about the Army of God. Read about the Defensive Action pledge and all the ministers who signed it. For heaven’s sake, Paul Hill WAS a minister (although ultimately excommunicated by the Presbyterians).
    He murdered two people and seriously wounded another. And was hailed as a hero and a martyr. The writing about his “glorious reward” in heaven after his execution is not much of a jump from the supposed promise of the virgins who await the suicide bomber.

  159. K2, I wanted to comment on your self discription but I got distracted.

    It always makes me smile when reading some of the comments on political blogs and invariably we get the trolls who come on and scream you Libralsssssssssss……. ____________fill in the blank. It always reminds me of hearing David Sedaris one time talking about how the only time people get angry/offended is when there’s some truth in what’s being said. For example, if someone calls me a, say, bar of soap, I don’t get offended. I think “huh? That’s stupid–I’m not a bar of soap.” But if there’s some truth in it, my reaction is completely different. ;-)

  160. Well, Noah–I appreciate that you agree both are terrorist. That’s a far cry from the statements on Fox yesterday that “not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslim.”

    I have a difficult time distinguishing one group of people who would kill because they believe their religious beliefs require them to do so from another. Certainly, one group has caused more deaths–but do we draw lines based on that?

  161. Lori, if that happens, like integration, in a couple of generations, everyone will wonder what the fuss was all about. It sounds like they have the right instincts.

    I agree, Noah, we have to keep our guard up.Terrorist organizations are recruiting men and women who look like northern Europeans. We will not be able to profile Arab appearing people and be sure we are looking at the right folks. A newscaster this morning reported that a potential terrorist may have entered the United States.

  162. Donna, I guess I still feel it is a stretch to considering Christians and how they deal with things the same as Al-Qaeda. Are both terrorism? Yes. On the same level? Not even close.

  163. Donna I think many of us suspected but had no evidence. Thank you for clearing that up. So K2 is right in calling the Tilton incident an assasination.

    Somehow it doesn’t bring me joy to know our suspecions were correct. ;-(

  164. Noah, that is exactly how a terrorist wins.

  165. Yes, James. I had a case a few years ago representing someone who had been targeted for harassment because she worked at a clinic. In the context of that case, I had to learn alot about (and take discovery of) groups such as Operation Rescue, Lambs of Christ, and the like. Lots of money, lots of coordination. There’s a fair amount of information out there on this which came up in the RICO case against Scheidler’s group (with which I was not involved).

    And Noah, these people truly believe that they are acting in accordance with a specific Christian dictate. Read about Paul Hill sometime or Eric Rudolph. Read about Neal Horsley, who posted the Nuremburg Files–in which he would X out the picture of a doctor who had been killed. There is actual encouragement, based on a religious rationale, of murder.

    Do we claim that these people reflect the views of all Christians? Of course not. BUT–and I think this is important–they are basing their actions on your basic King James version of the Bible.

  166. Noah, and you feel not allowing a community center (that houses a place for Muslims to pray) to be built is a proper way to keep our guard up against extemists?

    Do you think the Pentagon allowing such activity 80 feet from the crash site is a national security risk?

  167. Yes I know more about the Crusades and that particular time period that probably 80% of people today. That is why I chose my words very carefully when I said Christians of today. However, I feel it is a stretch to try and justify any activities based on what another group did 719-915 years ago and try and equate it somehow to what they are about today. I think to do so is inaccurate and terribly unfair.

    The Qur’an very specifically calls for violence against infidels. Now if I have been unclear I will be clear now. I am not nor ever would lump all Muslims in the same group. The problem is is that we cannot identify those that are extremists and those that are not. The live in the same places around the world. They worship in the same places around the world. There is no real definitive way for us to tell between a peaceful and a radical Muslim. That being the case you have a choice to open your arms and suffer the consequences or be guarded and watchful. All the places we have been hit all around the world including 9/11 have shown us what can happen if we don’t keep our guard up. Some may call it racism or bigotry, I call it self preservation.

  168. James, the community center (or culture center) will house a place where Muslims can pray it will only be part of a much larger “world-class community center” it will offer a variety of activities and resources, and will welcome all, without regard to religion:

  169. Sorry Lori, I should have written “community center.” You are right to call it that.

    We should decide these things rationally, but emotions turn them into symbols they were never intended to be.

    You’re welcome, sunshine. I’m getting to like you too (blush.)

    Donna, ” a deliberate…coalition of organizations”? Really? I often wondered if there was a connection, but didn’t take the time to investigate. Were my instincts on the right track? Please elaborate.

  170. Noah, Noah, Noah. I realize you’re not that old, but did history teach you about a little thing called the Crusades? About the Inquisition?

    Even though I am an atheist, I would no more burn a bible than I would burn the Qur’an. I have more respect for others’ views that that and I and know I have more respect for others’ views than they have for mine.

    I am not an expert on the Qur’an but I know that it no more calls for violence against Christians that the Bible calls for violence against Muslims or Jews. We all can read anything out of context or twist writ to suit our own warped purposes. To blame any entire religion for the acts of a few terrorist extremists is out of all proportion and just incites bigotry, hatred and fear. Terrorists are the enemy. Just ask Timothy McVeigh, Scott Roederer, John Wilkes Booth, or James Von Brunn (the Holocaust Museum), to name a few.

  171. My answer to your questions delurkergurl is no. I like your analogies. I also agree it isn’t hallowed ground.

    I believe some debris damaged the roof of the Burlington Coat Factory, if so it would fit the definition of “hallowed ground.” However, none of it is “hallowed ground.” It is just a piece of real estate where horrible things happened. It is hallowed ground only because we say it is.

    I agree with Noah and Pfessor. The Muslims have a right to build a mosque anywhere they want as long as local ordinances approve it. However, they know the emotional significance associated with that patch of land. For that reason, I wish empathy would persuade them to build a mosque near but not at the Coat Factory. But it is entirely their choice.

    My solution would be for them to build a multi-religious center at the Coat Factory. Let Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship in the same building. Let other religions have a space too. It would be a place of true reconciliation.

    My theory is that Timothy McViegh, Waco, Ruby Ridge and others had their roots in the rural American recession of the 1970′s and 1980′s.

  172. Dedicated to those who lost their lives on 9/11. I know all of us have been duped. I certainly can look back and see how many times I have been. I understand everyone has an agenda. Some will kill to accomplish theirs. Others will only lie. Some have noble agendas. It is when we close our mind to reality and facts, that we can easily be MANipulated.

  173. James and delurkergurl.

    Thank you for your kind words. It made me feel good and happy. I’m getting to like James. Imagine that! (wink)

  174. And the clinic bombers and those who have shot physicians are part of an organized, deliberate, carefully publicized and defended coalition of organizations. Which purport to speak in the name of Christianity.

  175. Au contraire: You have people bombing clinics and killing doctors because they believe that abortions are contrary to their Christian faith.

  176. I’ve not been duped, I would like to think I am fairly well read. I think there are a lot of credible theories in zeitgeist. However I have to live with what is reality for most folks and predominately with those that directly suffered in 9/11.

    The Muslim faith is not being blamed because they were Muslims. They are being blamed because it is being done specifically in the name of their faith, in their own words.

    We have two very different mind sets. Burn a Bible, you get some upset Christians. Burn the Qur’an, and you have some dead Christians. Or riots at the very least. When you have a group of people willing to die and kill innocents in the name of their faith and have done so many times you have to treat that differently. I remember a 26yr old US contractor who was taped while he had his head sawed off slowly with a machete. I just don’t see Christians doing these kind of organized attacks today. So I apologize for having a hard time considering the rights of those who would do these deeds over those that were killed by them.

  177. opps sorry K2 … all … for the repeat

  178. “banks charge $1.5 million to welfare recipients for cashing their checks”

    Didn’t know that but should have guessed the fees would really add up!

  179. Well first of all the building that is being proposed is a community center not a Mosque. Within that community center there will be a place for Muslims to pray.

    The Pentagon houses a space in which Muslims pray every day 80 feet from where the hijackers struck the building.

    The US Capitol Building also houses a place for Muslims to pray each day. The story is that building was targeted for destruction on 9/11.

    The building will be located in an abandoned Burlington Coat factory store 1/2 a mile away from “ground zero”. What distance would be acceptable for a praying Muslim?

  180. Okay, back into the fray.

    Noah, do you know that there was a mosque on the 17th Floor of the South Tower on 9/11? That there is a church right across the street from Ground Zero? That there already is a mosque nearby, just not a cultural center? That the Islamic Cultural Center (now called Park 51) is in the shell of an old Burlington Coat Factory two blocks away from Ground Zero (you can’t even see the building from Ground Zero).

    This is just another “issue” whipped up by the right to distract us from the real issues facing us:

    High unemployment as a result of eight years of catering to the rich and powerful.

    Wars on two fronts to distract us from the corporate power grab that is almost complete.

    Bigotry of all kinds (misogyny, religious, racial, homophobia, this “take out country back” and Tea Party nonsense, etc.) pushed by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and the rest of “Fixed” News and some of the Republican’s current crop of candidates (Sharon Angle, Christone O’Donnell).

    Media shills Republican politicians and the right wing who want the freely and overwhelminingly elected President of the United States to convince them, past all convincing, that he’s a natural born citizen (he is and has) and Christian, rather than Muslim (as if that should matter).

    The Citizens United decision and the calculated destruction of Acorn or any other organization dedicated to preserving and expanding our liberties (is the ACLU next?).

    Meanwhile, the investigatory media is stifled (Sharon Angle actually said she wanted the media to report what her campaign wanted, not what they observed), Congress is stopped dead in its tracks by Republicans who will do anything and tell any lie to get back in power, banks charge $1.5 million to welfare recipients for cashing their checks, and religious freedom and tolerance is attacked as “un-American.”

    Rant over.

  181. It’s not hallowed ground at all. It’s an old Burlington Coat Factory, surrounded by bars, strip joints and tattoo parlors.

  182. I have heard conflicting stories about Timothy McVeigh’s religious beliefs.

    Let’s change the analogy. Should construction of a YMCA be shunned within a certain radius of an abortion center bombing? Or a hospital that contains a chapel? Further, should I as a Christian be punished in any way because the bombing was done by “Christians”?

  183. If people would honestly assess who has benefitted from the events of 9/11, they would see that it certainly is NOT Muslims or Islam. I still struggle with how duped we have become as a nation. Especially given the vast availability of research and knowledge we have access to today.

  184. I guess I have a hard time letting everyone off the hook for one man having a drink.

  185. I lived less than 20 miles from where Timothy McVeigh lived. He did not bomb the Oklahoma building for religious reasons. He was fighting against our government for how it did things. This is a poor comparison.

    While there were Muslims that were killed as well they are a significant minority. Like many things in life it is rare to find a perfect solution. Again, this isn’t hallowed Muslim ground we are talking about here. There is no religious significance other than a way to declare victory over their enemy. I just don’t see any compelling argument why it should be there and trump the rights of those that perished.

  186. Noah -

    Sorry – so many posts by me…a little slow at work today…

    I find myself on your side re: mosque. Consider the following: I have every right to walk down the street and remind every black person I meet that, more than likely someone who looked much like me held their ancestors slaves, in this very county.

    Legal? Yep. Smart? No. Is building that mosque there legal? Definitely. Is it irrational to want to stop them? Probably so, but that doesn’t change the fact that a lot of people feel that way.

    It seems to me that it requires a lot of mental gymnastics to argue the “sensitivity” side when it’s one group, and force people to take “sensitivity training” – whatever that is – as punishment for offhand comments (sometimes even get them fired!) and think that’s ok….then turn around and take the “it’s a constitutional right, sensitivity be damned!” when it’s another group.

    Sometimes I wonder if there is a lot of guilt and self-loathing in all of that.

  187. First of all, before everyone keeps assuming we have ever proved that Muslims did 9/11, we have not. The “official story” has not been proven by the FBI, or any other official agency. It remains a conspiracy theory. Even the 9/11 commission’s report does not implicate them. Second of all, the Muslims who were suspected of these actions were not practicing Muslims. Mohammed Atta was in a strip club drinking with some of the others just before the event and that goes against any teachings of Islam.

    The phrase “bait, line, and sinker,” come to mind.

  188. Abortion is a wedge issue. Most folks don’t change their position by debating it. In the 80′s I was one of those anti-abortion protesters rallying with chuch groups raising tempers and causing plenty of folks to curse and scream in public. I’ve since adjusted my views and they have changed their position to call itself pro-life. I am vehemently pro-life, but not anti-abortion. That is for a woman to decide, it’s her body and choice. So I support the legal aspect providing safe and sterile environments. I do not think it should be a form of birth control, however.

  189. What about the Muslim families of the Muslim victims who died on that tragic day?

    I will accept the banning of Muslim cultural centers (or a mosque, if anybody proposed one) on the day that we ban all Christian churches in an equal radius from the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City.

    Every culture has its violent wingnuts. Including mine. Including yours. Including theirs. I pledge I will not hold the non-violent rational humans in any group responsible for what these psychos do.

  190. My 3 month answer comes from my biomedical ethics professor who said that the first measurable activity where the synapses in the brain could be measured firing were in the 3rd month. Drawing that line is difficult. Whatever solution is made it should always consider the rights of everyone involved. For myself I feel my beliefs does that well enough that I consider it to be ethical. Not perfect but nothing ever is.

  191. I find myself on the side of those that feel the mosque shouldn’t be there. Just because someone has the right to do something doesn’t make it right. While I understand not all Muslims participated in 9/11, some did. And they were chanting in the name of Ala as they crashed the planes into the building.

    One of the beliefs in the Muslim faith is to erect a temple on the enemies ground to signify their defeat. Even if I were to ignore this fact I would still finding a mosque there to be in poor taste.

    Does the Muslim community have rights? Absolutely. Do the families of those that died on that tragic day also have rights? Absolutely. In my opinion, those 3000 that lost their lives rights are more paramount than those that just need another place to worship. That particular spot holds no significance for the Muslim faith so I have no moral or ethical issues siding with the families that suffered on 9/11.

  192. Noah -

    There is neurological activity the whole time the brain and spinal cord are developing, as the cells divide to make more. That could be, say, twenty days gestational age or so, if memory serves. (I don’t really care about the exact number)

    We put animals down all the time. Would you consider it OK if brain activity were less than, say, that of a dog? What would constitute little enough activity to be OK, and how would you confirm that in any given case?

    (Obviously that’s not serious, but I think this is a subject that requires a lot of brain work, a lot of respect for everyone’s opinion, and a lot less shouting than we see in the general public. Here is the very first time I’ve seen that happen anywhere. Amazing.)

    My point is that any final answer to this question is going to be really, really tough and is going to make a great number of people unhappy no matter what it is. I think the absolutists on either side are bound to fail, and compromise will be the only solution long-term. Thoughts?

    Poolman – I read somewhere that the Chinese symbol for crisis has two strokes: one that means danger, the other opportunity. Yes, this is a dangerous line of enquiry. But also, yes, there is great opportunity to learn and grow. I want to take the risk.

  193. We keep hearing that “70% of the American people don’t want the mosque built near the “hallowed ground” of 9/11.” It seem that this 70% is being used as some sort of Constitutional justification for refusing to allow these followers of Islam to assemble where they wish. Have any of the blowhards we see on our TV screens actually read the Constitution? If they have, do they understand it? Do they have any grasp of the fact that the document was designed to protect the rights of the “30%” that they rail so strongly against? The majority always has a louder voice, it’s the minority that the Constitution sought to protect from prejudice and bigotry. I would venture a guess that the “majority” of people in Little Rock, Arkansas in 1957 didn’t want that Central High School integrated. Could have been as many as “70%” of them. Where would we be if we caved to the majority back then?

    http://www.dirtandseeds.com

  194. their-they’re for those keeping spelling score.

  195. their-they’re for those keeping score.

  196. Ive always taken a philosophical approach on abortion. It does become drawing a line in the sand it is just a matter of where. When do the rights of the mother get trumped by the rights of the child. I attribute to mean the same as we rule death. A person isn’t legally dead until their brain dead. My understanding of a fetus is that the first measurable brain activity occurs in the 3rd month. So in my values system I give the mother right to choose till the 3rd month then the babies needs trump that of the mother after that.

    While I would never do an abortion in my family I am pro choice, I feel the choice does not belong in the hands of the Fed. I think there is an argument to be made for it in the individual states but that is as far as I go.

  197. K2inSF, I am an over- educated, prickly- red- necked, pro- choice-moderate-wacko farmer and storm chaser with Diestic leanings. If we met on the streets of San Francisco we’d get along just fine.

    Our son and daughter in law live in California, and he works in the same company as our cousin does. Her family used to have a fruit farm near San Jose.

    One time, we were there in late June, and the beaches were foggy, though the sun broke out. Locals apologized for the weather, but we had escaped 100 degree weather at home. The cool fog was just what we wanted.

    One of my Air Force friends was now Dr. LeRoy Carhart. He was Dr. Tiller’s friend and helped run the clinic for awhile after he was murdered. I think Dr. Tiller’s clinic is for sale now.

    Nebraska has or will have a law requiring clinics to offer anesthesia for fetuses which are developed enough to feel pain. It will probably help more lawyers pay their mortgages.

  198. K2inSF -

    “since Thomas Jefferson dined alone.”

    Oh. My. god.

    I had forgotten that quote; it’s one of my very favorites on the planet.

    Up that goes on my office “quotes” bulletin board – containing nothing but great quotes.

    Thanks so much.

  199. PFesser, I love that Thomas Jefferson quote, too. John Kennedy was right: when he hosted a dinner for Nobel prize winners, he said it was the most accomplished group ever assembled in the White House “since Thomas Jefferson dined alone.” If I had room in my purse, I’d carry collected quotations from Thomas Jefferson, in addition to my pocket copy of the U.S. Constitution. As it is, I have his quotations, the Library of Congress, Snopes.com and this blog, of course, bookmarked in my computer.

    James, yep, I’m a native commie-pinko-hippie-leftie-atheistic-pro choice-left wing (who knows and likes Nancy Pelosi) San Franciscan. I’m glad you family is coming for a visit; we get our best weather at this time of the year. June is all fog and overcast (except for some “perverse” reason, Pride day is always glorious).

    I see in the past few hours, things have moved on to the Second Amendment and then a fight about a woman’s right to choose. Just a suggestion to all you liberal folks: never let the opposition define the argument, always define your own terms. I support a woman’s right to choose (as Bill Clinton said, “Abortion should be safe, legal and rare”). That doesn’t mean I’m pro-abortion, it’s means I’m pro-choice. Those who are against abortion aren’t pro-life (ask them about the death penalty or Dr. George Tiller and see who’s really “pro-life”), they are anti-abortion. On Monday, October 25, 6:00 p.m., Rachel Maddow is presenting a special on the assassination of Dr. Tiller (yes, I call it assassination). Should be a very interesting program.

  200. Good morning porch dwellers!

    Whirled Peas as ANONYMOUS, thanks for the links. I clicked your name and went to the Palingates site and read today’s story regarding Trig’s birth. This keeps getting sillier all the time. I wonder when the truth will be revealed. Surely someone is saving that for her presidential run, if that is on the horizon. A scary thought for sure. Even scarier to think some people would vote for her despite any facts showing how much of a fraud she is.

    PFesser, we have in the past been all over the abortion debate, and per usual, it was not pretty. Hopefully we can leave that in its cubby for some time. I have watched 3 of the clips from the PBS series I posted and must commend them for such a well-documented, accurate, and interesting program. I guess I will have to continue to support them when I am able.

    Have a wonderful day, all! Peace be with you.

  201. Yes, Poolman, thanks and also Brent. I will check your blog when I have time.

  202. dee -

    I had a five credit hour embryology class in college, and another one in medical school.

    Don’t take this as in insult; it isn’t meant that way – but this idea that abortion is “killing your baby” is very wrong and very unhelpful in a topic that needs to be debated, because it immediately draws a line in the sand, and oversimplifies a difficult problem in my opinion.

    Here is an analogy that I think fits very well: The egg and sperm are each half a blueprint. When together, they are the whole blueprint. Is a blueprint a house? No, of course not. Well, when is it a house? When the footers are poured? No. When the floor is built? No. When the roof is on? No. Well, when is it?

    The answer is that you start with a blueprint and you end up with a house, but there is no point where you can say, “One second ago it was not a house; now it is.” It is a continuum.

    The embryo is a blueprint with a few boards on the floor. As time progresses, it takes on supplies and arranges them; in this way the embryo changes from a blueprint to what we all agree is a human.

    I was always very critical of Roe v. Wade, but as time has gone on, I think it positively Solomonic. Understanding that the process was a continuum, the justices realized, as Mason said to Dixon – “You gotta draw the line somewhere.” So they drew arbitrary lines at trimester points and – as I understand it – said: first trimester – abortion allowed for any reason. Second trimester – abortion for some reasons. Third trimester – abortion allowed for almost no reason.

    I think that is a reasonable compromise to an otherwise very untractable problem.

    Hope I haven’t opened up a can of worms here.

  203. Poolman -

    Tnx for link. I am covered over my ears with jobs to do right now, but I’ll save it.

  204. Sarah Palin’s TLC reality show:

    Δ

  205. Someone’s using the Palin’s playbook:
    duck, dodge and collect the paycheck.

    Second place will pay well talking on FOX.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-tv/odonnell-debate-sean-hannity-pocket_b_763604.html

    Δ

  206. Jon Stewart & Stephen Colbert join forces:
    Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-october-14-2010/rally-to-restore-sanity-and-or-fear-announcement

    Δ ~ PEACE

  207. The right to bear arms can be interpreted to say people have the right to own weapons so they will be able to shoot if they are drafted in the military. At least it is how I regard it. Many also people still hunt for food to save money.

    Many WW1 soldiers from the South were better than average shots because they had grown up hunting for food.

    We live too far from the law for it to protect us during emergencies. A neighbor witnessed a drug deal when he was looking for a place to build a deer blind. A man shot twice at knee level and warned him if he told they would kill him.

    The sheriff told him to carry a weapon for awhile because he lived too far away for anyone to help.

    We also need people to control the deer population.

  208. Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I will copy the companies’ names and do some research.

    no ones puppet, you’d think two televisions would solve the problem wouldn’t you. We have two televisions, but we are so dippy, we don’t want to spend our limited time together in separate rooms. Sickening, really. Yes, six televisions sounds like plenty.

    On the other hand, we have six VCRS and four DVD player-recorders hooked to each other and the second television so I can duplicate stuff or we can watch a movie while recording something. My wife has purchased scores of old VCR or DVD movies at garage sales for under a dollar apiece.

    Donna, I ordinarily agree with your comments about the law, but you never met our lawyer. He was a force of nature of whom one could jokingly say “there is no theory of evolution, only a list of species Pat permitted to live.” Or “Pat doesn’t read, he forces books to surrender their information.” If he said he could bend the law to his will, he meant it.

    After my father died, he said “You now occupy a lonely position. You have stepped to the head of the line.”

    He was an FBI agent before he became a lawyer, and he once argued a case before the United States Supreme Court. One of the justices told him he did a good job. Not bad for a lawyer from a one traffic light town on the Iowa-Nebraska border.

  209. As for that strict interpretation of the Constitution, the right to bear arms was written in a time when the latest technology in riflery was known as the Brown Bess, a flintlock rifle. Pistols operated on pretty much the same principle. If you are really, really, really wedded to that strict stuff, then all you are allowed to have in weaponry is what existed at that time in history. And, oh yeah, you would have to be a member of a legit militia.

  210. opps Thank you for the effort *James.

  211. Thank you for the effort Jim, i’ll check it out.

  212. No, it didn’t make it. James Q. Lynch wrote on Oct. 2, in an article titled Iowa GOP Surge, but Dems still hold the edge.”

    According to him Republicans gained 36,070 and Democrats lost 23,786, not during this election period but during the last year. No party lost 12,371.

    I’ve passed out plenty of registration forms, and I don’t believe Iowa asks for previous registration information, so the exit polls will tell.

    Of course after the brain swelling incident following a drunk driver- caused accident, details like that can escape me.

  213. You’re welcome Lori.

    I googled this morning and sent what I learned from wfccourier.com. I didn’t see it posted, so I tried again and it said I was sending a duplicate comment. Refreshing the page didn’t show it either. I assume it made it. If not, “google, the October Voters Report from the Iowa Secretary of State.”

  214. lori- we’re working on it!
    dead heat is right…
    Mr McAdams is winning people everyday. All it takes is for folks to hear him speak , answer their questions, and respond at debates .
    He has a solid history coming into this, with his work and mayoral background , for working for and with broad groups of people and resolving problems.
    Just have to get him around and about so more people get to know him…
    working on it!

  215. Dee, But what if a person believes life begins at birth and therefore believes abortion isnt killing anyone and hence not immoral?

    Do you think pro life people would think it was OK for the government to dictate other behaviors of an expectant mother?

    One of my vegan friends thinks it’s absolutely immoral for anyone to eat meat while they are expecting.

    I wonder if many pro life people would agree with that?

  216. In response to: “They hate big government in healthcare but they have no issue with government being big enough to intervene in the private health decisions of a woman seeking to end a pregnancy or the private decisions of a husband wanting to end the decade long sufferings of his wife.”

    What people fail to see is just because a decision is personal doesn’t make it legal or moral. This country was built upon “morals”. As far as a woman wanting to end her pregnancy than I say let her, let her DO IT BY HERSELF, having someone kill your baby for you should be illegal. What’s the problem? Is it too emotional to do something to end your own pregnancy? Maybe that’s a sign that you shouldn’t be doing it? JMO.

  217. and speaking of polls! Alaskapi and Elsie you guys are doing some damn good work up there. Did my eyes deceive me?????? The race is in a virtual 3 way tie??? Gooo Mc Adams !! Goes to show never say never. YES we can.

  218. Yes Auntie Jean you are so correct, polls are not a forecast.

    Thanks James for the info. I e-mailed one of my Iowa buds last night and received a few Iowa democratic registration numbers. But I appreciate your input.

    It seems your state doesn’t ask its voter registrars to identify if it’s a new registration is that right? So I guess we will have to wait for the exit polls for glean more info on who the new republicans are.

    I have to say I couldn’t find any place (or anyone) that confirmed your number of 36,000 new republicans. That is a pretty significant and interesting jump for one election cycle. Especially for a midterm. But I will take your word for it until I know differently.

  219. Hi Congenial Gang,

    Last evening I received a phone call on our landline from a Rasmussen Poll. I took it with some interest. As we all know, there are plenty of scam ‘polls’ going around that are ‘surveys’ and usually are trying to sell you something. But I stuck around for this one. It was quite lengthy and covered just about every national issue, the political parties and HI state candidates as well as all the usual demographics. The questions were fairly straightforward but the choices of responses were somewhat limited and left plenty of room for interpretation. The results were on their web site this morning.

    I have worked rather extensively with statistical analysis (not political however) so this poll intrigued me. First of all, the premise or hypothesis has to be spelled out clearly without bias. (Who cannot bring his/her own personal experience into just about everything s/he does?) Then a ‘random’ sampling has to be chosen from the ‘universe’ being tested. How do you get to a random group in the first place? How many people do you call? At what time of day? How many are at home? How many just hang up? On landlines or cell phones? Face to face in person? How can you follow up and for how long? Then there is the “Fudge Factor”, in how can the poll be sure the subject is being perfectly honest in answers? Who is paying for the ‘poll’ and wants to tweak or skew the results in favor or disfavor of the original purpose of the poll? There are a myriad of variables just in setting up and executing the ‘poll’ even with the plus or minus points Margins for Error built in. Thus the Reliability and Validity of any statistic is always, always, always open to question. As the old inside joke on statistical analysis goes, there are three kinds of lies: “Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics.”

    After the data of responses has been collected and cranked into a computer there is a long series of complex statistical formulae that have to be followed and taken into consideration in order to project the conclusions onto the whole ‘universe’.

    What relevance does one little phone ‘poll’ from one remote lil’ ole island in the Pacific, at say 7:00PM PST, October 13, 2010 have on the state, regional or national pulse, no matter how carefully and detailed it has been crafted?

    So lori, I concur with you that polls can be indicative over TIME of TRENDS, but to cite any poll at any given moment in time to support a point of view is naïve folly. It is somewhat like predicting the weather for the next five days on the 6:00PM news. Out here, we can’t predict whether it will rain within the next twenty minutes! We have little Mauka showers that blow through any old time, last for about five minutes, move on and the sun comes out again!

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom.

    Auntie Jean

  220. Typical liberal gibberish. Failure to articulate an intelligent argument against conservative policies but rather resorts to crude insults and stale liberal talking points.

    And here’s my pledge- I pledge never to read this blog again.

  221. God Bless America!
    God Bless both of you Ladies.
    God Bless your Common Sense, which seems to be less common now-a-days.
    God Bless our Constitution that protects everyone, even the Republicans, the Tea Party Members, and the Gays.
    God Bless our Troops who continue to follow orders even if it is to fight this Illegal war that the Republicans started.

    and finally:

    God Bless All of you readers.

    Thank you for being who you are, ladies.

  222. Poolman, thanks for the PBS link. I heard about the show from another teacher today. And very relevant to the book I just finished–
    A Short Life of Jonathan Edwards by George Marsden.
    I learned a lot about the independent religiousness that evolved just prior to the Revolution. For the first time, colonists felt that their worth as a religious being didn’t come from on high (established state churches) but rather, the right to determine the path of my faith comes from within.

    What an interesting discussion everyone participated in today! I wish I could have been around for it. I love my country and the Constitution.

    And the Pledge! This morning I saw a student sitting in the corner while the rest of us stood for the Pledge of Allegiance. I guess we’ll be having a lot of good lessons in civics coming up soon!
    I love it! The more I can teach my students about the Constitution, the more they understand how much we all have in common as we move forward in life and learning.

  223. PFesser, Part 2 of the series I linked is your neck of the woods and much about Jefferson. I think you’ll find it enlightening. I went through part 1 and am half through part 2. I think it an excellent and accurate account.

  224. I pledge my allegiance to Margaret and Helen–also, too.

    Awesome post. Thanks.

  225. Here is an interesting looking series. I have not watched yet, but will take it in small chunks as time allows. I’m usually pretty good with PBS and in particular Frontline. Thought I’d share for anyone interested as it seems to be a topic of constant discussion.

    http://www.pbs.org/godinamerica/view/

  226. Guess I don’t follow the inference LDG, care to elaborate?

  227. James, a lot of people get around the what to watch on television by having more than one television. Our situation is unusual, but I had to put my foot down about having a television in the kitchen, I think, six televisions are plenty.

  228. Donna -

    “Just as the other issues are part of the general power of the federal government to regulate interstate commerce or provide for the general welfare.”

    Ah yes, the infamous Commerce Clause. Many believe that cause the Antichrist, because it has been used so many times for blatant Federal power grabs, under the vague idea that Everything affects interstate commerce, so the Federal Govt has the right to regulate Everything.

    I tend to be more of a fan of the Tenth Amendment: “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” No delicate parsing needed to discern what *that* means, unlike the Commerce Clause.

    James -

    ref: Hughes Net.

    Stop! Go back! (apologies to Monty Python)

    I lived in a rural area and out of desperation got Hughes Net. A horrible experience. I would avoid them like the proverbial plague unless you were lonesome for poking hot needles into your eyes.

  229. @NOAH: can you say CRUSADES? TOO BAD YOU WEREN’T AROUND THEN. So much for the Christian junk. Respect ALL religions.

  230. kelly -

    “After you read the Constitution, find me the part where it says the gov’t can mandate healthcare & take over private industry. After that, find the part where the gov’t has to provide healthcare and income for seniors and welfare for people too lazy to get off their a**es for generations.”

    I think that comes under the neverending struggle between strict constructionists and loose constructionists.

    The strict-ers say, “If the Constitution does not say the govt can do it, they can’t.”

    The loose-ers say, “If the Constitution does not say the govt can’t do it, they can.”

    My experience is that any govt, unless there are very clear limits on its power, tends to draw more and more power to itself, so I tend toward the “strict” definition.

  231. K2inSF -

    I live a few miles from Monticello, and Jefferson is my hero of heroes. Here’s another quote from him I like on religion:

    “But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. ”

    As has been brought up before, he listed as his epitaph the following three things: Author of the Declaration of American Independence, the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, and father of the University of Virginia. He considered, I believe we should surmise, the Virginia Statute a more important accomplishment than being President of the United States. Pretty heady stuff.

  232. The Constitution is a framework. It has to be interpreted. That’s a different thing from being “changed” which takes an amendment.

    Actually, the expression I favor is “where you stand depends on where you sit.” (referring to whether you are at the plaintiff’s table of the defendant’s in a courtroom).

    So you can’t make the law (awfully broad concept) “do” anything. It provides rules and principles.

  233. James, just to offer you another option for high speed internet service, you could get WildBlue, which is cheaper than Hughesnet. Also, wireless might be an option for you. Don’t go with out broadband access, it’s not worth it. If you want to keep up with things I have a satellite internet blog and would love to have you check it out, it is at mybluedish.com/blog.

  234. WWGKD? I’m not dancing to that tune tonight.

    James, I have cable for my internet, but also with my cell provider I have internet. The cable is a faster connection, but the Verizon is still pretty good. I don’t know if you’ve checked on that, but it is actually less per month than my cable connection. The reason I got it was for my laptop and the portability of it. So far, I haven’t been anywhere in the US that I cannot get coverage with Verizon.

  235. Donna, our deceased lawyer, a family friend said “The law is a wonderful thing. You can make it do anything you want.” So too the Constitution. People change it to meet new conditions, as the founding fathers intended don’t they?

  236. Oh, I’ll keep going. The FTC? The SEC? A whole variety of federal criminal laws–while the federal judiciary is mentioned, specific federal statutes are not.

    This is no different from the people who argue there’s no constitutional right for women or gays to serve in the military. Correct–it’s part of equal protection. Just as the other issues are part of the general power of the federal government to regulate interstate commerce or provide for the general welfare.

  237. Lori, I think they were first time- registered Republicans. Of course I don’t know if they left the fold during the last election and are returning now or not.

    I believe Democratic registration declined by about 23,000 since last year. These figures are from memory and are approximations. Republicans lost a lot of ground after Bush, so in my opinion, this change is more a return to the natural order instead of a catastrophic decline for the Democrats.

    About 161 new Republicans have registered since October 1, so the wave has passed its peak.

    The big race that interests me is between Governor Culver and Terry Brandsted. He was a successful governor and retired before Vilsak now with the Ag. Department became governor. I haven’t had time to pay attention, but the last time I did, Branstad held a slight lead.

    I probably told you more than you want to know, but ask and I will try to tell you what I think is happening.

    delurkergurl, yes, we could get satellite service, and we have half- heartedly looked into it, but a neighbor told us we should wait until the service improved. Now that we have a digital converter box, we get about 27 stations, including ACCU Weather, movie channels, etc.

    The biggest reason we don’t get satellite service right now, though my wife would agree if I insisted is she doesn’t want it. She says I hog the television so much as it is and with cable, I’d spend my time on the weather channel, the history channel, etc. I’d be watching the big debate tonight too, and she’d miss a show she liked.

    Our phone-internet company also promised broad band would get here, and we waited patently. They then told us it wouldn’t pay to extend the service to our area. Now, another company is buying them, so we have hope again. They promised something could happen within a year.

    The service is so slow my wife can’t stand it, because she is used to high speed service at school. It doesn’t bother me much, because I am used to it. If I want something from youtube like music videos our son and daughter, get them for me. Our son sends us shows like “Dead Like Me” or “Corner Gas.”

  238. The repubs were in majority when Clinton was President. Wishful thinking about your “liberals” ignorant comment.

  239. where in the Constitution does it say that the government will provide roads or otherwise make transportation possible? Where in the Constitution is anything about Social Security? Where in the Constitution does it say a lot of things that people take for granted as the appropriate power of the federal government? How about the CDC? Or the post office? I’d become far more versed in Constitutional law before starting down the path of it it wasn’t originally provided or expressly stated in an amendment, it isn’t constitutional, lawful, or whatever other term you’d like to apply.

  240. After you read the Constitution, find me the part where it says the gov’t can mandate healthcare & take over private industry. After that, find the part where the gov’t has to provide healthcare and income for seniors and welfare for people too lazy to get off their a**es for generations.
    The Military could be cut by the US not want ing to be the police of the world. How about we close the bases in Japan, Germany, S. Korea etc…but maybe, just maybe we should keep a few of those guys around. I hear there are people who are trying to kill us by blowing themselves up. Oh wait, I forgot, that is just Fox News propaganda.

  241. Thanks. Sorry about this effusive post.

    You and the others have helped put me in a really good mood right now. This has been the best week in a long time.

    Yesterday was my birthday, and I managed to negotiate a tricky business deal with the historical society I chair and our county economic development woman. We were working on it for over a month and were afraid the board wouldn’t buy it.

    I was able to brag about my wife’s grant writing skills, and then our daughter walked in to help celebrate my birthday. The board got to meet her for the first time, which made me feel good because we are proud of her.

    Tomorrow night at this time my wife and I will be partying at a log cabin in a historical museum complex miles from home. Then, we will spend Saturday after 7AM hiking through the wild as we search for and track an old Mormon trail. One of the friends who will be there is a climatologist, so we will get to talk about history, crops, and weather. It can’t get much better than that for a bunch of history and weather geeks.

  242. James, have you looked into satellite internet, something like hughes.net, I just can’t understand why you would put up with poor service in this day and age.
    I’m counting the minutes, to watch the Reid-Angle debate here in Nevada. I believe it is available on C-span if anyone is interested, 9 pm EDST.

  243. James were those first time registered republican voters? Do you know? Also was there a decrease in registered democrats?

  244. James, actually the lady walked better before the leg was lengthened. It will take some getting used to, I’m sure.

    Most of those Texans do lean right. I think it’s because they are always looking toward the border for illegals. LOL.

  245. Did you get that backwards James? Or did I read it backwards? Really? A month ago there was a 3 to 1 ratio in favor of the dems? That is highly unusual isn’t it? Usually absentee favors repubs. Is it typical for dems to out number repubs in absentee in your state?

    Anyway, the gap I was speaking to was the enthusiasm gap that is meant to be so wide this year. We shall see. Maybe it’s just my base has awakened and is coming home… I can only hope.

  246. I’ll try again, James.

  247. I had no idea delurkergurl. I found the site at the name calling stage.

    Do you think we can get it to where it was again? I hope so.

    For some reason, your e mail didn’t make it, but thanks again for the effort.

    Poolman, it sounds like you belong to a good church. It must have been special to watch the girl walk again. My uncle who lived in Texas, had one leg shorter that the other because of a service related incident. Of course, he leaned to the right. Ha Ha!

  248. Lori, on Sept. 16, 33,017 registered Iowa Democrats v 11,785 Republicans had applied for absentee ballots, so Republicans are gaining. Wait until my large family votes. Ha Ha!

    The last I heard, about 36,000 more Republicans than last year are registered. That leaves over 700,000 Democrats, 645,000 Republicans, and over 750,000 listed as no party.

    “Where is that gap…?” Where it usually is. Favoring Democrats. Away from western Iowa where we are more like Nebraska.

  249. Sunshine wasn’t kidding. It used to be very nice here – recipes, jokes and conversation included. If you don’t remember that, then I can see why you might not understand why people here are disappointed and say the comment threads have veered downhill. Many who used to enjoy that don’t post any more because it’s just too much effort to be heard above the fray.

    Sunshine, I’m so glad to see you.

  250. HRH sofia EQ, I remember some of those silly drills. We did the march to the cafeteria and under the tables, sitting with legs crossed and hands over our faces. Supposed to keep us safe in case of nuclear attack. Yeah right!

    I only lean left when I face north. I think it’s this fast spinning orb we’re on. LOL

    Speaking of leaning left… We had a lady healed in service last Sunday. Well, healed, I guess is what we would call this. She had one leg about an inch shorter than the other and had been that way all her life. The pastor had a word concerning someone needing to have their legs made even, and she came forward. One of the gals in my small group sat her down and prayed for her and her shorter leg lengthened just a little. Then she prayed some more and it got a little longer. Finally after several more minutes of prayer it was the exact same length as the other. The girl got up and was having a hard time walking. I guess it will take some getting used to. She was so excited and was in tears just praising God. Everyone there was amazed and happy too. Things like that are such faith-building moments. We are starting to see more healings lately, it’s pretty darned exciting. Had to share – no limits with God!

  251. This is good news! Ohio reports similar results.

    42% of the 119,430 early voters in Iowa are registered Democrats compared with 29% registered as Republican.

    Where is that gap they are talking about?

  252. Lori’s Texas flag pledge reminds me of an air base I served on. At 5PM, the flag came down as Taps and the Star Spangled Banner played. Anyone caught outside had to stop whether walking or driving and stand at attention until the flag came down.

    Everyone, even the officers kept close track of the time to avoid the trap.

    I also remember the drills like the ones HRH sofia EQ described in this “center right nation”. Ha! We looked forward to them. Fire and tornado drills were fun too. One time our superintendent thought we were too complacent, so he released a smoke bomb first. It made more smoke than he planned.

  253. I’m 2 months shy of 67. I have a very clear memory of learning the Pledge in first grade. Also a very clear memory of being really annoyed when I had to go and relearn it in third grade. We took turns choosing which patriotic song to sing after the Pledge. I always chose “America the Beautiful,“ never did like the sound of those bombs bursting in air. Also have a very clear memory of being led out of my second and third grade classrooms into the hall (cinder block building, interior corridor) and being told to sit on the floor against the wall, tuck my legs under my skirt, put my right hand over the back of my neck and my left hand over my eyes and put my head on the back of the person in front of me. It seemed kind of scary and a little silly at the time but it was a diversion and fun to get out of class for a little while.

    I still lean left.

  254. K2inSF, I didn’t see it as lobbing a bomb either. Yes, discussions like this are fun. Are you from San Francisco? If so be ready for a disturbance in the force. Our kids and their spouses will be in SF in two weeks.

    Are you kidding Sunshine, recipes and jokes here? That would be fun.

    Here is a present for your nice post.

    “While there is time
    Let’s go out and feel everything
    If you let me
    I will bring you into my dream
    For time is a river rolling into nowhere
    We must live while we can
    And we’ll drink our cup of laughter

    The finer things keep shining through
    The way my soul gets lost in you
    The finer things I feel in me
    The golden dance life could be.”

    Steve Winwood

  255. Welcome, K2inSF. I didn’t see it as lobbing a bomb. If everyone agreed, it would be boring. It was discussion. I like discussion. It’s arrogant jerks, trolls and snipers I dislike. ;)

  256. Even more than rewriting history, Poolman, I see destruction in the choices people make on when to stand on history and when to reject it. Our constitution matters when it suits us, but when it doesn’t, not-so-much. Gee, people do the same thing with the Bible. :D

    We are not the country we started out as anyway. Intelligent people would take the best of what we’ve accomplished and learned and move forward, but we seem to be stuck on the spin cycle.

  257. Noah, I see the rewriting of history as the most destructive. If we cannot know the truth and learn from it, we will continue to make the same mistakes, ie: Vietnam = Afghanistan.

    To constantly reaffirm our beliefs is healthy, imo. To constantly question authority is good if the purpose is to know the truth and not to merely disrupt progress. Our government is a good example of many gears running in all directions without propelling the whole machine forward. All the energy is being wasted turning gears and not going anywhere. Then we see plenty throwing sand on the cogs rather than oil. I, for one, would like to see it dismantled and reassembled to all function as originally intended.

  258. I agree with you 10000000 percent Noah. I feel the same way.

    I bet we disagree on who is doing the distorting of history and who is ruining our country though.. ;-)

  259. I guess I see this need to pull our history apart piece by piece and try to find “new” meaning as a destructive force. If you can get enough people to question their fundamental beliefs enough you can get them to implode from within. Our sense of patriotism and national pride were essential to our winning of World War II.

    I think America has become complacent and very self serving. It seems for many that the only way to be progressive or edgy is to find something controversial to believe in. Not necessarily because of a revelation but rather just to stand out. I believe this attitude has serious repercussions and could ultimately lead to the end of our way of life.

  260. Mageen in Old Virginny, I didn’t know about that case. Quite interesting. I personally don’t think we should force our kids to say the pledge. Once they understand the meaning, I think they could choose to say it or not.

    Similar to our national motto now officially since 1956 being “In God We Trust”, I think we have essentially propagated doublespeak into our language. Now with it on all our currency, I see many atheists using these same promissary notes to buy and sell. Really, that is somewhat funny when you consider it. It is really a matter of semantics. Of course, no one gives it much thought except psuedo christians who claim that it means we are a Christian nation. Outward gestures merely. If it said “In Gold We Trust” or “In Buddah We Trust”, would it spend any different? I think not. Christianity is a lifestyle, not a label. Do you think those who steal those same greenbacks are deterred by what is written on them? Most Christians don’t even acknowledge that the God of Islam is the same God they profess to pray to, the very same one the Jews believe in.

  261. Just got back on line and boy, did I throw a hand grenade into the mix!

    Noah, I’ll answer your questions directly, “Does you need to exclude God equate to a Christians need to include God?”

    First of all, I’m 62. The pledge of allegiance was amended in 1952 or 1953 (during the McCarthy era), after I was born. To pour salt into your particular wound, I also don’t swear on the bible as a juror. I affirm.

    As an aside, but on point, you should note with interest that the Presidential oath, as spelled out in the U.S. Constitution, is “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” No mention of “so help me God.” The fact that most U.S. Presidents swear on a bible is not part of the Constitution.

    Second, this country was founded as an secular one. The founding fathers went to great lengths to keep the United States from having a state-sanctioned (or compelled) religion. Although many of the founders were personally religious, many of their ancestors came here to escape religious persecution. Consequently, this is not, as you seem to believe or want, a “Christian” or Judeo-Christian country. I think Thomas Jefferson said it best, “I have considered it [religion] as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle.”

    So, my answer would probably be “yes.” My right to be left alone to not practice (or practice) any religion is equal to your right to be left alone to practice yours.

  262. Very nice, cordial and respectful conversations going on right now. Hope this trend continues. I was about ready to abandon ship with all the nastiness and “look at me, I’m so much smarter than you” jazz. I look forward to smart back and forth intelligent discussions, but with some lighthearted interludes which is what Helen and Margaret are trying to give us. Gosh, we even used to have recipes and jokes, and wished we could meet some of you in person even. It was so much fun. Can we do it again? Yes We Can!! Life is short, let’s try to enjoy it as much as possible. Perhaps I’m a dreamer.

  263. Yes, poolman, our culture, including the concept of personal integrity has changed and not for the better.

    The an old joke illustrates the power of the spoken word. Boys beat each other up and then its over. Girls belittle each other until they get eating disorders.

    Noah, I also think some of these things are being watered down as part of an agenda to change history.

  264. Interestingly there were two GOP promoted paradigms floated about today. Quite by coincidence.

    One was “we are a center right nation” the other we are a “country based on Christian principles (I used the right one this time! Yay me! LOL ) and our founding fathers were “Christian”.

    They have been repeated so many times by the right many “believe” them as fact now.

    It’s fine with me if people want to “think” that.

    They can have any opinion they want. Doesn’t bother me.

    However when you really start to examine those 2 issues it becomes clear those are not necesarily correct assumptions.

    That’s all I’m sayin.

    OH and on the “pledge…

    In 2000 ish Texas adopted by an Act of the Texas Legislature in 2001 that says:

    If the pledge to the state flag is recited, each person who is present and:
    (1) not in uniform should: (A) face the state flag and stand at attention with the person’s right hand over the heart; (B) if wearing a head covering that is easy to remove, remove that head covering with the right hand and hold it at the person’s left shoulder, with the person’s hand over the heart; and (C) recite the pledge; or
    (2) in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and make the military salute.

    That use to drive me crazy when my kids were required to do this!

    Honor the Texas flag;
    I pledge allegiance to thee,
    Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible.

  265. Another wonderful post.

    As always, you slay me.

    I’d vote for you.

    If I were an American. Which I’m not.

    And if you were running. Which you could.

    At the very least, I’d come down south and work for you for free. Whoo hoo. Margaret and Helen for president. Could you co-chair the country? I think it’s possible. Give it a try, would you? I promise I’ll provide all the pie you can eat.

  266. I guess I am being much more basic in my meaning. These things are part of our national heritage. It feels to me as if people question many of these things either just because they can or that they have some agenda and try to find hidden meanings to further said agenda.

  267. We have certainly watered down the importance of speaking and saying what we mean. I think it is more than just lazy and undermines our collective integrity. Oaths and pledges DO have significance and did hold greater weight in generations past. Now with even presidents arguing the meaning of “is” and “sex” and the abundance of lawyers buffering reality and clouding clear meanings, not only is communication compromised, but also right and wrong. I wish we could get to a more purer form of speech and clearer descriptions defining black and white. Back to basics, I guess is what I’m proposing. Back to when a person’s word was their bond and its inference was not clouded.

    “Above all, my brothers, do not swear–not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your “Yes” be yes, and your “No,” no, or you will be condemned.” (James 5:12)

    And James chapter 3 is an excellent read. “The taming of the tongue”. It is good to understand the power of the spoken word and the ramifications thereof, imo.

  268. I don’t think Washington was a Deist. He often attended an Anglican Church but rarely took communion. That prompted the charge from a minister of the time.

    He was a Mason, but so were many of my family.

    Historians come down on both sides of the question.

    Otherwise, I agree with you, poolman.

    Yes, Noah, we probably read too much into what you were writing.

  269. I didn’t see anyone not being nice to Noah. :)

    Welcome, Noah. Thanks for kicking off an interesting discussion. I, for one, have never thought so much about the pledge of allegiance before!

    As for a pledge being just a pledge… We all interpret definitions of words differently, but to me a pledge is a solemn promise. I pledged to be faithful to my husband when we got married. In that way, I’d never say a promise is just a promise. I imagine you’re saying the pledge is a just a traditional ritual. I guess for me, that’s what it’s been because I haven’t thought at all about the words since I learned them in kindergarten!

    As a Christian, maybe the Pledge isn’t right for me. Maybe that’s why I love Murphy’s Oil Soap. :D

  270. I think we should be nice to Noah. Someone who can argue controversy pleasantly should be encouraged to post more.

  271. Poolman et al: did you see where some judge jailed a lawyer for not joining in the recitation of the pledge? Story was not very long or huge on details but apparently this judge started his day in court with the pledge. One lawyer didn’t do it. However he did remain respectful during the pledge. The judge challenged him to say the pledge individually. Lawyer declined on constitutional grounds, which actually exist (Supreme Court decision regarding schoolkids being forced to recite the pledge in contradiction to their family’s belief system). Lawyer went to jail but very, very briefly. This judge would have been obviously content if the lawyer did the hypocritical thing and mouthed the words. Don’t know if I would be comfortable with that judge’s decisions from the bench in all things law.

  272. I sort of agree with the Pfessor, and you Lori when you put it that way. I don’t think the United States was founded on the Christian religion either. Our founding fathers wanted everyone to have the freedom to worship or not to worship, and Christianity happened to be the predominant religion.

    Moreover, some religious allusions may have been literary devices to make speeches sound more uplifting.

    Though some of my ancestors fought in the Revolution, others supported the Crown. The victors did not live by Christian principals of forgiveness, and to save themselves some of my family became Canadians.

    I agree about the Pledge of Allegiance. The descriptions may miss the mark, but I see them as an as yet unatained ideal.

  273. I think like poolman’s post your all reading way to much into things. My statement was stating that we as a nation have a Christian background and that the “historical” literature about the time and documents produced at that time prove that out fairly conclusively. Everyone seems to be looking for an underlining meaning to everything that I feel isn’t necessary there. Sometimes a pledge is just a pledge.

  274. This nation was not founded on Christian principles, but rather principles that do not suppress Christianity, or any other religion. The closest government principle it was founded was the Iroquois nations. Washington was a deist and he professes to be Christian in his latter years. Many were masons, which is pseudo-christian, but elevates other things above Jesus. Pretty much a mixed bag for the founding fathers.

  275. I have to run.. talk to yinzes later..

    namaste

  276. I agree poolman. A pledge to a “flag” (or country) and the words under God should be mutally exclusive ??? Shouldn’t they?

  277. The founding fathers wanted to escape the established religion in England, not because they didn’t want a Christian nation. They were pretty clear about keeping their new country free of the strangle hold of a state-supported religion and letting people be free to worship or not to worship.

    Other issues than religion drove their perceved need for revolution.

  278. I have a problem with the whole pledge of allegiance thingy, whether under God or not. It reeks of fascism and idolatry. We were forced to do it in school. In society, if you don’t stand with the right posture and salute or have your right hand over your heart, you’re seen as unpatriotic and therefore unamerican. Much like wearing a flagpin, it’s an outward expression of patriotism to “prove” allegiance. In this bumper sticker and sound bite world, I bet the terrorists among us do it best to avoid suspicion. Biggest flagpin = most patriotic. LOL

    First the pledge is to a flag – a symbol, aka, an idol.
    Second – one nation, aka, a tribe or federation of tribes. How many nations did we subjugate and continue to oppress as this “one” nation?
    Third – indivisible? We seem pretty divided overall. Divided into states, divided in class, divided in ideology, divided in opportunity, divided in representation, etc.,etc.,etc.
    Fourth – liberty? That one gets me every time. Which definition of liberty do we apply? It certainly is not freedom in its truest sense.
    Fifth – justice for all? Yeah, that’s funny. When is this justice part gonna kick in?

    So yeah. Pledge all you want. But be sure to understand WHAT you are pledging. Most pledges go against my belief system. Especially if they place ANYTHING before God.

  279. Well George may have been Christian donno…

    But we can see by the 1796 treaty with Tripoli that the United States was “in no sense founded on the Christian religion”

    This was written during George’s presidency and enacted under John Adams.

    Those don’t sound like words from a man who thinks we were/ ar a “Christian Nation”.

  280. I have no problem with Christians who try to “save”me. I probably enjoy the experience more than they do, and I do believe in God.

    Some of our founding fathers were Christians, some not. They were men of the enlightenment, but also nominally Christians. A family legend from the time holds that during the Revolution, George Washington went into the woods to pray from time to time.

    Deism must have been quite a fad at the time. A strain if it has been handed down through our family for generations.

  281. Also Noah, if indeed te founding fathers wanted a Christian nation why do you suppose they left England? Would there been need for the revolution?

  282. It seems to me that the Founding Fathers, for lack of a better term, having seen the wages of mixing religion and politics in Europe, specifically avoided doing that, so I would submit that the principles upon which America was founded were *universal*, not Christian.

    In America I think of the church as one who can convince, but not compel, while government is nothing but raw power – that is to say, the power to *compel*. We have seen, I believe, time after time what happens when the church obtains that power to compel. Thus, consider the possibility that the reason Christians in America are somewhat less violent and threatening (usually, anyway), and why you consider them more benign is precisely *because* here they have – by law – no power to compel. My guess is that if they did, you and I might view them with a somewhat more jaundiced eye.

  283. Well Noah congress changed some of the words in the declaration of independance. ( if that is the literature you mean?) They removed Thomas Jefferson’s words that condemned the practice of slavery in the colonies, they also altered his wording regarding equal rights. His original wording was “All men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable.”

    Congress changed that phrase, increasing its religious tones to read….. “All men are created equal. They are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights.”

    But we are not governed by the Declaration of Independence– it is a historical document, not a constitutional one.

    If you are talking about the Constitution, they specified that “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” (Article 6, section 3)

    This was pretty out there and radical given the times. Giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers.

    Some think they wanted to ensure that no single religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had.

    NOWHERE in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms. The words “Jesus Christ”, Christianity, Bible, and “God” are never mentioned in the Constitution– not once.

    So Noah I don’t know what literature you are refering to?

  284. Well if that were true I haven’t seen anything to support it. Looking at the literature and documents they produced during that time fairly conclusively puts them in the Christian faith.

  285. hmmm some poeple think our founding fathers were Deists who did not believe the bible was true.

    Some think they were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity.

  286. I guess I feel less threatened by Christians in general. It is in their belief system to “recruit” people. I have never been pressured or had someone try and cohere me into becoming or attending a Christian service

    This nation was founded on Christian principles. It is part of our history. I guess I don’t see any threat perceived or otherwise by having God in our pledge or the like.

  287. It is the Christian and their Muslim cousins “job” to save lost souls.

    If they do their “incessant badgering in the name of being ‘right’” they walk away scratching their heads after I “incessantly” badger them about Thor or Wicca.

  288. “does you(r) need to exclude God equate to a Christian’s need to include God?”

    Depends. Whether or not I need to exclude God is up to me. What I object strenuously to is some peoples’ need to include me, by manipulation and incessant badgering in the name of being ‘right’.

    If these particular Christians would simply do whatever they believed holy and fit, by themselves, and stopped trying to control and proselytize others, there wouldn’t be any problem at all.

    And the Supreme Court has already weighed in on freedom of religion, some decades ago. They stated quite clearly that it does include freedom from religion. Established law, highest court in the land.

  289. Noah -

    “K2inSF, I’m 41 and remember saying under God in my pledge in head-start. As an atheist, does you need to exclude God equate to a Christians need to include God?”

    I see your point, but I think atheists have a different POV: They have no “need” to deny or exclude anything; for the atheist gods don’t exist, any more than Santa, the Easter Bunny, Odin, Thor, spaceships to Andromeda or any of that. So gods don’t get any special consideration one way or another; there is no “need” to deny them any more than there is a “need” to deny any other imaginary thing. They are just an interesting – and often very destructive – invention of the human mind.

  290. Jim, I understood what you meant.

    if that’s your POV … okie dokie

    not much I can say.

  291. lori

    “Jim, You are correct. If your point of reference is:

    “Hispanics, blacks, Asians are liberal/Democrat voters overreaches.”

    Then we have nothing to discuss”

    Maybe I didn’t state the point well, but the idea is that, while Democrat politician generally = liberal, Democrat *voter* much more often does not. I think one of the biggest Democrat mistakes is taking black and Hispanic voters for granted. Many of my black/Hispanic acquaintances are very conservative, and in the future may just decide the ReBiblicans represent their interests better. If the ReBiblicans ever get their heads out of you-know-where, in the future they may start to tap this huge potentially conservative voter base.

  292. K2inSF, I’m 41 and remember saying under God in my pledge in head-start. As an atheist, does you need to exclude God equate to a Christians need to include God?

  293. Helen,

    I hereby adopt your pledge in its entirely (oops, except for one thing). When I was born the pledge of allegiance read “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.” No “under God” in the one I was taught and still stay. Other than that, including EndDust, right on!

    I love the new show “Glee” but was equally uncomfortable last week when Kurt’s father was ill and everyone insisted that Kurt had to believe in god so he could to pray for his father. Kurt’s friends couldn’t just pray for Kurt’s dad and be done with it; no, they had to drag Kurt to church, hold prayer vigils at Kurt’s dad’s hospital bed and expect Kurt to thank them for doing something that made them feel better, not Kurt or his dad.

    Did anyone see the recent poll results which showed that agnostics and atheists know more about the bible than Catholics, Protestants or Jews? The reason: agnosticism and atheism are reasoned, educated choices.

    In my book, freedom of religion means freedom from religion.

  294. Jim, You are correct. If your point of reference is:

    “Hispanics, blacks, Asians are liberal/Democrat voters overreaches.”

    Then we have nothing to discuss

  295. I agree alaskapi. Liberal and conservative definitions are something like describing porn. I think a Supreme Court justice said you can’t really define it, but you know it when you see it. That’s why I gave my definitions. My view of conservative or liberal applies only to me as yours does to you.

    As you know, people may be liberal on one subject and conservative on another.

    Yes, Obama has critics on the left who think he is too squishy, and he has essentially followed Bush’s war policy. He also has ties to big business, including BP, Monsanto, etc. He is also granting businesses and unions wavers when the health insurance law impinges on their profit margins.

    However, he and the Democrats moved beyond the center right with several specific bills and laws when most people wanted them to help private businesses create more jobs. The voters would have been more forgiving with good results.

  296. James- while I disagree with your concept of what a conservative or liberal is, I think a lot of conversation should start with people being clear about what their own concepts about those words/ideas/stances are.
    Assuming a set of measures behind the scenes, so to speak, adds to lack of communication greatly.
    It also adds to the lazy thingy of classifying other human beings as objects to drop in slots – to ignore or revile …
    While I often decide certain arguments aren’t worth my time, I don’t want to forget that real people have experienced sets of circumstances which combined with whatever/whoever they were born with /as make for a whole different view of the world than I have.
    Speaking from about as far left as you can get without falling off the grid, Mr Obama is FAR less left than many say he is. Some of his appointments signal very strong shifts toward neoliberal policies. Lubchenko is at the top of my list. The shift of a resource of the commons, fish, to ownership by the few via regulation is almost complete now…
    And go take a gander at a couple of his appointments to the Dept of Ag- Monsanto and other big business is well represented.
    I think he’s done ok in general but some of those things worry the daylights out of me…

  297. Of course that pledge of allegiance, the under God part was only added to it in the early fifties, during the McCarthy era.

  298. I agree with you Pfessor. “Right” and “left” are relativist terms which change with time.

    Based on my stereotypical concepts, which may be different from yours, conservative attitudes and values favor self reliance, financial responsibility, a strong national defense, controlled immigration, patriotism, and tolerance. They care more about individuals than groups.

    Liberals favor big government to equalize unequal outcomes, tolerate deficite spending and higher taxes, less reliance on the military, more open borders, and the belief that government can fix problems better than private enterprise. They care more about groups than individuals.

    The relative number of Republicans or Democrats does not necessarily support the case for a center left status. Conservatives are Democrats too.

    In addition to the PFessor’s arguments, I cite the popularity of the Tea Parties’ attitudes about government spending and taxes. This is only from memory. One poll showed slightly more people self identify as Tea Party sympathizers than call themselves Republicans. A Gallup poll showed more people identified as conservative than any other group. Other polls show more people than formerly oppose abortions, especially if they are late term.

    Part of Lori’s defense concerned the future, but this discussion began as an interpretation of the present.

    The future could play out differently than first appearances suggest. As PFessor noted, the majority of blacks and hispanics tend to be culturally conservative. They may support more government aid and spending now because as relative newcomers and others still living under the cloud of racism or disfunctional cultures, but that may change.

    Some writers gave blacks and hispanics credit for defeating California’s gay marriage initiative. They tend to have traditional family and religious values.

    Many educated women have turned conservative. The Tea Party has a strong female influence, and many of the Republican’s most successful candidates this time are women.

    I agree with Lori that the trend is moving toward the left as more people become dependent on the government. Once dependents outnumber producers, it will happen and last until the bills can’t be paid.

    President Obama and the Democrats must also agree. He was fairly straightforward about who he is by what he wrote in his books and his comments before he ran. However, Obama lied when he came to Iowa.

    Most politicians lie, so it doesn’t matter. What matters is he presented himself as more moderate than he was. Had he not believed his audience was center right, he would not have portrayed himself as more conservative than he is.

  299. Good morning.
    No, Poolman, we don’t get a “fall break”. But our school calendar does allow for several “non-student days” in the fall.

    Classroom presidential election is on the roll again. We have the Key Party vs. Cyclone Party.
    Both candidates are good boys. One is more rambunctious than the other. Yesterday, both of them asked the same person to be their running-mate and by the end of the day I had to help her find a way out of having to decide.
    Classroom politics can be fun.

  300. Regarding that attempt at an SNL skit in Delaware last night . . .
    Coons the Political Heavyweight vs Winnie the Pooh. Ouch!

    OK, I can see things pretty well from Coons side. For instance, college newspapers are known for a satirical side inasmuch as they are really not “news” institutions and they have to fill column inches and give students some writing experience. I wrote cutesy stuff for campus periodicals when I was an undergrad. One mentioned tomato aspic. If in future I am running for office my opponent is welcome to that one!

    As for Christine, oh dear me! She should have done better. Instead she went circular which a lot of people justifiably ended up resenting. She had more than enough time to prepare deeply for this event. Oh, wait! Her handlers for this event were the same ones that handled Palin for her interview with Katie Couric!

    And that question about recent Supreme Court decisions . . . lately they have all been very right wing and one is even considered toxic (corporations seen as individuals when donating money to political campaigns) but at least she could have said that after reviewing their recent decisions, she really did not have at the time any objections and perhaps even say something laudatory about Chief Justice Roberts.

    Sigh. Tells you a lot about her, huh? Would like to know how Delawareans feel about standing in for Wasila.

  301. Donna, it sounded like an interesting show.

    Maybe people who see each other face to face have personal connections that people who have never met do not.

    I agree it is a subject to ponder.

  302. lori -

    When there is a disagreement, a distinction must be made. I think we have to do that by coming to some agreement on what we mean by “right-leaning” and “left-leaning,” and then we can decide.

    We need something other than just demographics, I think. Your assertion that Hispanics, blacks, Asians are liberal/Democrat voters overreaches IMHO. We have quite a number of blacks where I live, and they are very, very conservative, even though they vote Democrat. We also have a number of Hispanics – they are Catholic nearly to the man and quite religious – and conservative as well, so I don’t think you can equate Democrat with liberal necessarily. Remember, in the ‘sixties it was the Republicans who pushed civil rights law, and the Democrats who resisted. They later, through the “Southern Strategy” were convinced to become Republicans. Before that, it was the “Solid South” – meaning solidly Democratic. Things change.

  303. Still not convinced?

    Take a peek at the demographic forecasts.
    Minorities increased their share of the vote by 11 points since 1988 and have become even more strongly pro-Dem than they were eight years ago. Same goes for white college graduates, professionals, women, and the religiously unaffiliated (btw that is the fastest growing religious group in the country).

    We are meant to be a majority-minority nation by 2042. By 2050, the country will be 54% minority when Latinos double from 15 percent to 30 percent. Asian Americans increase from 5 to 10 percent, and African Americans increase, slightly, as well. Considering those are all democratic voters – hence left leaning, I don’t see this trend ending anytime soon.

    Shifts and changes seldom happen in straight lines. So it only stands to reason we will see slight fluctuation in the stats for the next few eclection cycles/years. But the trend lines are clearly headed left.

  304. ops sorry for the repeat posting .. wordpress is giving me fits this morning.

  305. right leaning nation?

    think again… according to Gallop polling in an aggregate 2009 polling four states have majorities of self-identified Republicans and independents who lean to the GOP I think they are Alaska, Idaho, Utah and Wyoming. As opposed to 23 states that lean to the dems.

    Then of course there is that tiny fact that dem majorities in the house, senate and lets not forget the white house.

    Andddddd need to look at the national polling when t comes to gay marriage, DADT and abortion. (all left leaning issue) All three of those issues are have seen significant support over the last 10-15 years.

    Then of course we need to look at the number of registered Democrats as compared to Republicans. Oh yes and look at the Gallop generic dem vs republican poll numbers. even in this HORRIBLE climate people still prefer democrats..

    left leaning????? don’t believe everything you see on FOX NEWS.

  306. right leaning nation?

    You sure about that?

    think again… according to Gallop polling in an aggregate 2009 polling four states have majorities of self-identified Republicans and independents who lean to the GOP I think they are Alaska, Idaho, Utah and Wyoming. As opposed to 23 states that lean to the dems.

    Then of course there is that tiny fact that dem majorities in the house, senate and lets not forget the white house.

    Andddddd need to look at the national polling when t comes to gay marriage, DADT and abortion. (all left leaning issue) All three of those issues are have seen significant support over the last 10-15 years.

    Then of course we need to look at the number of registered Democrats as compared to Republicans. Oh yes and look at the Gallop generic dem vs republican poll numbers. even in this HORRIBLE climate people still prefer democrats..

    left leaning????? don’t believe everything you see on FOX NEWS.

  307. This also just in -

    Sarah Palin’s Mini-Me took a good arse-whuppin in the Deleware debates. Quelle surprise. I think Coons – barring sudden disclosures about voodoo altars in his garage – is un-catchable now.

    Most Americans may be a little to the right of center, but it’s not much, and we are for the most part not dupes. Thank god.

  308. Ladies and gentlemen:

    As of 5:32 a.m. on my clock, the last rescue worker is on the surface.

    Well done.

    While I share the world’s joy, I am immediately struck with the range of human capacity. All the world is happy beyond words at the rescue of 33 men by hundreds of others, but we shrug our shoulders at videos of an equal number being killed in utter darkness by Gatling gun fire from our own helicopters, as we voyeurs watch too through the night vision cameras.

    Twain may have said it best: The Damned Human Race

  309. @ Dennis – what a boor. And a bore. Good riddance.

  310. Okay. I swept the porch, emptied the trash, cleaned the bathroom, and mopped the floors. I’ll get to the yard tomorrow. I just lit some scented candles and put on water for tea. I think there’s a little pie left…help yourself. I’m heading to bed. Be sure to lock up and turn out the lights. Good night and pleasant dreams.

  311. WWGKD- Donna and AlaskaPi you two must have been reding my mine. After scrolling past the nonsense, I had decided it was time to enter my NY resolutions again. And then I got to your posts.!! GMTA.

  312. Welp since no one has the ability to address any issues I am off to greener pastures. I would say I was surprised but I’ve 3+ years of trying to find a Liberal capable of discussing any part of their ideology and it always ends the same. If I were a guessing man I would surmise that deep down you know what you believe in is wrong but lack the character to change.

    Either way at the end of the day results are what matter, probably why you vilify the corporate world. You cannot and will not even attempt to defend Liberalism, rather only attack those that dare question it. All the whining and crying in the word just doesn’t matter. Are you able to perform or not? All I see is everyone worried about form and whining how unfair life is. Not once have I seen anyone take any personal responsibility. It is always someone else s fault.

    You deserve everything that happens to you in life. So ready to surrender yourselves to the will of the all knowing government. Lemmings one and all. It is indeed a shame ignorance is the norm for so many. Happy trails. Let the personal attacks commence.

  313. If there was like buttons on blogs I’d be clicking Alaskapi’s..lol

  314. WWGKD?!
    Yup- it’s time!
    Head em up, move em out !

  315. You have a choice to enter the military in this day and age kiddo. You chose to submit to that way of life. You can do better poolman, that was a very poor attempt.

  316. poolman, to desire to control another is a sin..period. – Dennis

    So you don’t support our military I see.

  317. Thanks vgman! How many times have we needed that on this blog to date? LOL. And how many times have you stated it? LOL. It seems to be a common MO with nonliberals. I hope your day went well. God bless you teachers! Our grandkids are on fall break this week. Do you get a fall break?

  318. WWGKD? I speak only for myself, of course, but believe it’s time.

  319. Ive always had grammar issues all my life. Dyslexia a well but somehow I manage. I am used the intellectually dishonest and weak using it as a means of retreat when their own shortcomings rear their ugly head. Why doesn’t it bother me in the least? I know without a doubt it is a flaw in my opponent and not in me that they do not possess the integrity or the capacity to argue effectively.

    Liberals argue and make most of their decisions from the heart, thus the term bleeding heart Liberal. When confronted from someone who can look past their own personal feelings and look at an intellectual problem objectively, they immediately go on the personal attack, because looking at another s point of view is often to uncomfortable to deal with.o

  320. Oh, you don’t need to offer yourself UP to us.
    Rather, we are just offering a hand down to you if you wish to take it.
    Please use the word your and the contraction you’re correctly. It would add brilliance to more than adequate vocabulary….and it just makes sense.

  321. vgman-
    it’s called “begging the question”
    along the order of “I’m always right, if you don’t think so, just ask me !”

  322. Either your up to the task or your not…obviously your not. Nuff said. Nothing to be gained by personal attacks, but if your that insecure you feel the need to point out all my flaws then by all means continue. Happy to offer myself up to try and make you a better person.

  323. Dennis,
    Control yourself. You’re overbearing.
    And you drip with self-righteousness…it’s all over the place.
    Yuck!

  324. Truly amazing isn’t it, that I could insult the daylights out of you and you don’t even get it…?
    Pffft.
    There all kinds of logic, methods and standards of of proof…
    Some work better in narrow specific applications, others have broad applications…
    Some fail from internal fallacies…
    Don’t care about your argument at 8:02 or any other time…
    Just getting bleary eyed scrolling past all the irrelevant conclusions and hoping you would at least go find out what begging-the-question means…
    Back to scrolling!!!!!!!!

  325. And another personal attack. Thanks Anonymous

  326. Drennis sounds like an emasculated male who has reinvented his manhood by anonymously demeaning and denigrating anyone who disagrees with him. Probably lost a junior high school debate with a female and has never gotten over it.

  327. Amazing how you can use so many words alaskapi yet still say nothing. By all means take my argument at 8:02 and tear it apart.

  328. Ok Dennis- you get points for having trotted out every fallacious device of rhetorical style from the Greek sophists to Machiavelli…
    Poor old Mach was pretty obvious and you are even more so…
    So points given..
    Those points add up to the hairy armpits and holey underwear of a school of logic which relies on reasoning from an undistrubuted middle to the fallacy of the single cause.

  329. Hi Congenial Gang and some not so congenial,

    It seems that M&H are inundated with tedious trolls again, from both past and present. There is an obvious pattern repeated over and over again – to be contrary and then argue, just for the sake of arguing. Does that make them feel as if their opinions are of any importance to anyone else but themselves? Maybe for them but certainly not for me. It is a pitiful approach to making friends let alone expect to influence other opinions. Further, it has gotten so monotonous for me it is almost Pavlovian. Whenever I log on and see certain names, I start to nod off.

    The Ship of State will sail on, with or without any of us.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom.

    Auntie Jean

  330. poolman, to desire to control another is a sin..period.

  331. Thanks, James. I hadn’t seen your post.

    It really was a good show. Started with the example of the quarterback (Favre) and how he likely would not have actually exposed himself to someone as an overture. Moved on to email courtesy and the stuff people will forward. Then talked alot about what people will say on blogs and how for some reason they will attack/insult in that forum when they wouldn’t in person. No answers as to why and it’s an interesting thing to ponder.

  332. Dennis, as a born again, spirit-filled, radical Christian, I can truly say this: You haven’t got a clue! Jesus IS a LIBERAL! Social justice IS the gospel. Get with the program. And for your barrage of insults…

    “A good person produces good deeds from a good heart, and an evil person produces evil deeds from an evil heart. Whatever is in your heart determines what you say.” (Luke 6:45)

  333. Yet another fine example of ..when faced with facts…attack the source. Say what you will about me your prove my points time and time again, even if you don’t have the integrity to admit it.

  334. Poolman: It’s a really interesting situation. Most state laws require that any interest in real property be both signed and recorded, and specifies the place and manner for recordation. The requirements can be really finicky–some states don’t allow blue ink, some don’t allow black. Many require notarization.

    Lots of cases dealing with the enforceability issues. I think there will be a wave of lenders suing MERS for misrepresenting what it was offering–although they were equally able to determine applicable filing/recording requirements.

  335. I wonder how many people would come into someone’s home, tell them that their political beliefs were a disease, insult their intelligence, and the like.
    ——————–
    My crazy Aunt Grace used to do that… and then she would start chanting to call down spirits to cleanse your home…
    I’m thinking anyone with a family of any size has at least one…

  336. Liberalism has serious issues. Even if your not a christian we can use Gert’s rules as a reference point. Doing harm or depriving others of pleasure is a sin in Gert’s way of thinking. Liberalism does this on many levels

    Liberalism breeds dependency. Entitlement thinking, welfare, forced redistribution wealth. Dependency is a form o control. To desire to control another is a sin.

    Health care reform is just another measure of control. It is being forced on us as we can be sent to jail for failure to comply. Forced dependency is a sin.

    I give most of you Liberals the benefit of the doubt that you don’t fully comprehend the harm you do. That doesn’t however mitigate the threat you pose.

  337. Donna, “I wonder how many people would come into someone’s home…”

    Good post, the best of the day in my opinion.

  338. Oh BTW Donna, what is your take on all this MERS business that is coming out? Just curious if you have been keeping up with the latest. I hope this puts some of these players in the brig.

  339. Hi Congenial Gang,

    Hooray!!!!! The miners are all out!!!!! Chalk one up for the good guys. Yup, about now, the mine down below would be a safe haven for those guys with wives and mistresses out in the open. Looks like there could be some big time cat fights! Ah well, it happens I guess. Some men just like to live dangerously, above and below the ground.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom.

    Auntie Jean

  340. Yes, Poolman–and I’ve either been trying cases or arguing appeals for 30 years. Which is why this little example of generalization, projection, and bluster is of so little interest. Of course, the first sign may have been calling people limited in their knowledge and, at the same time, complaining about personal attacks.

    We have had some interesting debates here, with some smart and well-informed folks. It’ll happen again.

  341. actually I did know thus the reference. Was mentioned in a previous post

  342. Dennis, you’re likely not aware Donna IS an attorney. I think you have dug yourself in pretty deep at this point. I don’t know if anyone will throw you a line. We have had many true conservatives that handle themselves well show up here now and then with real substance to offer. I’m not getting that same vibe now.

  343. Fortunately everyone has you on here to explain to them what you feel they couldn’t comprehend without your brilliant insight. nice PSA. Another example of how if you don’t play by Liberal rules, their ability to form valid points crumbles. Hopefully trial law is something your never forced to do. They tend play even less friendly. Regardless of the personal insults, results are most of the debate points went unanswered. Logic always prevails.

  344. Oh–there you are again. No, Dennis–you have not offended me. Not in the least. I spend my days debating issues and cases with people who are really smart and who know what they’re talking about.

    Someone who can’t do more than project his own propensity for personal attacks on other people hardly registers even a blip. The only thing of interest here was the manner in which you serve as an example of the downside of the internet. I doubt that too many people agree with your opinion of your “infallible” logic. But since you do view your logic to be so flawless, one wonders why you feel the need to go onto blogs, conducting what you appear to view as a sort of Diogenes search for a logical liberal. My guess is that it makes you feel good–and that little else does. But it’s not my problem and, since I debate for a living, I don’t need to indulge your silliness.

  345. And with that, I shall sign off from this little soiree. I think Dennis has established that he is someone who has an enormous need to feel that he is “right” or “bested” someone else. He has also indicated that he feels just fine engaging in the most egregious discourtesy, and would freely do so in person. And so he simply stands to me as another example of the reasons that vigilance is important. I’d hardly want this country to be in the hands of people who are that limited, that unable to see beyond themselves, and who fool themselves as to their own intellect and knowledge. There are bright, good, and reasoned conservatives–no doubt about that. They simply do not behave in the same fashion.

  346. personal attacks in a debate is one of the first signs of intellectual weakness Donna. If I have offended your delicate sensibilities through my use of infallible logic I apologize. Do try and maintain some composure.

  347. While your obviously fragile sense of self may require you to believe that, those of us who have dealt with Poolman (whether or not we agree with him on all issues) would suggest that he showed great patience dealing with someone who has nothing to offer in terms of any genuine debate, but merely couches his sad, psychological need to feel he “won” something in those terms.

    One of the most bush league tactics that the least competent lawyers use is the “you have nothing to say” routine. At least, they typically do it with grammatical correctness.

  348. ill assume at this juncture you have thrown in the towel poolman. You gave it your best.

  349. Who is going to clean up after all this? Politics is messy business. :wink:

  350. My point has been demonstrated again. Of course, there are true boors who actually would say this crap to a person’s face. But they are rare. And they pretty quickly are isolated. Unfortunately, the internet not only emboldens their discourtesy, it enables it.

  351. poolman-
    Mr Miller has blown it so badly in the last few days , he may have to go hide out on that “farmland” in Delta Junction pretty soon- if it keeps up

    Some of it won’t mean anything to folks Outside – is internal Alaska Republican party power grab SP was part of , along with Mr Miller-
    but the rest is very obvious
    He blew it badly…

    http://newsminer.com/view/full_story/9902197/article-Former-mayor–Alaska-Senate-candidate-Miller–not-truthful–about-borough-employment?instance=home_news_window_left_top_1

    delurkergurl-
    you are correct asking where folks will go… working hard for Mr McAdams here! working really hard!

  352. Hilarious! Now Joe Miller is dissin’ the T party! Gotta hand it to them Republicans lately, they sure can put on a good sideshow. LOL. Gonna grab me some popcorn and watch the fireworks… :grin:

  353. in a heartbeat. it should be the goal of every well spoken conservative to save people, especially from themselves. and its not like I am saying anything everyone doesn’t already know about Liberalism. its a degenerative disease that logic and conservative values can cure.

  354. On the way home, I was listening to talk radio. We actually have a few local shows that are very conservative but pretty smart and sane.

    The host was talking about how the internet has people doing things they’d never otherwise do. It was in the context of a quarterback who had emailed photos of his “junk” to a woman.

    And he was on to something. I wonder how many people would come into someone’s home, tell them that their political beliefs were a disease, insult their intelligence, and the like.

  355. but talking points and rhetoric work so well for you delurkergurl (:>

  356. Ooh! Tonight’s an O’Donnell & Coons debate! I hope the moderators do a good job and don’t let them get away with talking points and rhetoric!

  357. no one’s puppet, if your able to do anything but snipe your welcome to actually say something of Merit. Otherwise carry on.

    linda, I am sorry some wealthy person hurt you. Despite that, it is not a crime being successful. We have a thing called the American Dream that many of us on our side of the isle think is a good thing. As for who said they were good times during those years, check your history books.

    PFesser, Clinton may have had a surplus near the end but his economic world was coming down around him. If his Presidency had lasted 4 more months he would have had to take all the credit for the economic downturn the Liberals want to lay at the feet of Bush.

  358. Great point, no one’s puppet! Thanks for the perspective. I’ll even make a nice donation to a democratic candidate in a close senate race in his honor.

  359. Dennis -

    I remember the Reagan years very well; that is when I was first able to put a little money away and invest it.

    I remember the Carter years as unmitigated disasters. It makes me ill to think of it. I had listened to (governor) Reagan on the radio, unusual since I was a very liberal college student, and what he said made sense.

    When Reagan was elected, he basically forced a huge tax cut down Congress’ throat and forced a major overhaul of the tax code, which I think was more important. With lower tax rates and better laws, people began investing because things were good investments, not because of tax favored status. The market started up and just kept going, after ten years of near zero growth in the ‘seventies. I still have the stock market charts, and it began with Reagan’s tax policies and cuts.

    Clinton started off very liberal, but got handed his head in the ’94? election, when the Dems lost everything. He then was forced more to the right, and the country continued to prosper. Yes, Clinton left office with a surplus; some of that is the Republicans’ doing, but some of it is his, too – particularly scaling down the military spending.

    The years since Clinton I don’t want to talk about. When he was in office and the news came on, I used to think, “God, what now?” But I have to tell you; I’d take Bill Clinton in a minute now. Bush-the-lesser should be tried for treason for the damage he has done to our country.

    Just my opinion.

  360. LIKE this post?

    I LOVE this post.

    Awesome, Helen and Margaret.

  361. And on the lighter side of the news…..

    I met a fairy today who said she would grant me one wish.

    “I want to live forever,” I said.

    “Sorry” said the fairy, “I’m not allowed to grant wishes like that!”

    “Fine,” I said, “I want to die after the Democrats get their heads out of their asses!”

    “You crafty bastard,” said the fairy.

    ***Change the party to suit your ideology.

  362. Too much time on your hands, instead of talking to Dennis, maybe you could call some prospective voters for your favorite candidate. Dennis will still be here after the election, no doubt.

  363. >>The Reagan years are considered to be one of the longest stretches of prosperity we’ve ever had. <<

    By whom? The WEALTHY? Reagan and his cronies? Your "info" is incredibly wrong. Get some real facts. Many of us feel Reagan ruined this country . OMG now we have a half black guy telling us what to do! YES WE VOTED FOR HIM AND WILL AGAIN.

  364. Still the best blog on the web! Thanks for your biting and truthful perspectives.

  365. Somehow that doesn’t seem to make any sense. You credit Clinton with a surplus. You say the decline started with Reagan and Clinton did nothing to stop it. The Reagan years are considered to be one of the longest stretches of prosperity we’ve ever had. Lot of lofty claims with nothing to back it up.

    And forgive me for being mistaken about the topic of our conversation. I could have sworn we were living in the present, talking about our current President. I wonder if you will ever feel Obama will be responsible for anything? I find it curious that everything that is wrong today is somehow the fault of someone that was president almost 30 years ago. By that line of thinking we wont be able to hold Obama accountable for anything for another 28 years. Interesting thought process there.

  366. Ok Dennis, obviously facts don’t get in the way of your ideology. I must therefore conclude you are not sincere in your purpose here. My post was not rhetorical, but rather is based on facts that can be substantiated. I was not defending Clinton, only the FACTS regarding the national debt. Truth be told, the downward slide began in the Reagan years with Clinton not doing too much to reverse the trend.

    I did go back and read what you wrote and it still is as convoluted now as it was when it was posted. Tangents like Clinton’s sexcapades and economists predictions and liberal this and that doesn’t support any fact, merely your unyielding bashing of anything you don’t understand or agree with.

    Have a nice day, time for me to go to work.

    Peace. :grin:

  367. Delurkergurl, I agree corruption is bleeding us, and both parties are guilty.

    However the pensions are different. As at General Moters, many of the pension and benefit contracts I cited were reasonably honest. At least they were in Omaha. Government leaders were overly optimistic about future prospects and gave too much away for short term political gain.

    During the last election, Omaha’s new mayor ran on a platform of lower taxes when he knew the previous mayor had dumped near bankruptcy on the city. As a city council member at the time, he knew what was happening, but like other council members, he didn’t share the information. The only possible corruption was the earlier mayor’s brother-in law negotiated some of the contracts.

    My wife, a teacher is also a part of the problem. As a government worker, her retirement payments from IPRS will match the highest salary she receives. Iowa’s governor pushed through a state bonus for good teachers just before the economy crashed. It wasn’t much, but we were glad to get it. If my wife retired when the payments come through, the total would be added to her basic pension.

    European countries are flirting with austerity because they can no longer afford the comittments they made to their citizens. The French are now rioting because they may lose benefits they expected and planned on.

    If the pension system was entirely corrupt governments could summarily change the rules, but it doesn’t seem dishonest, and when the crunch comes, a lot of people will be angry.

    Like you, I don’t feel my identity is connected to a particular political ideology. I vote for what benefits me, as you probably do.

    However, as Boston.com wrote on July 11, 2010, “Researchers discover a surprising threat to democracy, our brains.”Facts don’t necessarily have the power to change our minds. In fact quite the opposite. In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the University of Michigan found that when misinformed partisans were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they rarely changed their minds.

    In fact they often became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, facts could actually make misinformation even stronger.”

    Yes, poolman we are all related in some way. If you have blue eyes, you are my mutant cousin. All of us blue eyed people are descended from someone with a mutation about eight to ten thousand years ago. The first person with the new recessive gene lived near the north shore of the Black Sea.

    delurker gurl, and Poolman, are you my cousins?

  368. …ok poolman, I once again encourage you to actually read what i wrote and comment on that rather than falling back on tired rhetoric. As far as Clinton goes…

    Im sure if you thought hard enough you might recall the final months of the Clinton Presidency. Aside from the fact he disgraced his office with his sex addiction issues, do you recall economists predicted in November of his final year that the country was heading for a recession. Sure enough 2 months into Bush’s term the economy took a major turn for the worse. More irony. 2 months in and Liberals blame Bush for the economy’s downturn. 2 years into Obama’s term and they still blame Bush for the economy. Again Liberal doctrine is loaded down with hypocrisy.

    While math doesn’t lie, Liberals are masters of manipulating it to achieve their own ends.

  369. Delurker girl – thanks for y our comments on my writing issues. It has come a long way in almot 3 years when the right side was paralysed. Thanks to the computer, it has been wonderful therapy in getting the hand to work. Now the next step is to get the right foot to move.LOL

  370. #2 My comment on National debt and tax relief by G.W. Bush vs Obama – Dennis

    Fact: Clinton left a surplus in the budget when Bush came into office. Bush did cut taxes on all Americans and Corporations. He also created the famous “donut hole” mandate in Medicare, and started 2 illegal wars. None of this was funded or included in the budget. He also expanded NAFTA. Before he left office we had the TARP and the stimulus was proposed to keep the economy from collapse. The stimulus was passed in early Feb of 09. The tax cuts are set to expire at the end of the year. Many have spun this to say Obama is increasing taxes. In reality, Obama has cut taxes for 95 percent of Americans. Like you said, “Math is blind to which side of the [a]isle you find yourself on, and the math doesn’t lie.”

  371. two..through…six?

  372. Dennis, I agree wholeheartedly with the Carlin clip. That one is saved to my favorites already.

    James, if you go back far enough, we are all related.

    delurker, that quilt is for anyone that posts that doesn’t include an email address. And remember, Carlos = Carol.

  373. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI About sums it up as good as anyone ever has.

  374. I have seen way to much factual evidence to the contrary about the cost of reform. Again, IF, and this is speculation, it does produce savings, then they project that it might cost nothing, because of these supposed savings. It is still going to cost us upfront, and we are going to have to wait and see on these savings. My opinion is we are not in a possession where we can afford these upfront costs. Math is blind to which side of the isle you find yourself on, and the math doesn’t lie. 2-6 still open

  375. We already know President Obama and Dick Cheney are distant relatives. Ancestor.com now says Obama and Palin are tenth cousins.

    If so, that means some of us are probably distant cousins too.

  376. Alaskapi, the question is where they’ll shift to. Away from Miller is a darn good thing, though.

    —–

    Why do so many of the random negative posts seem to have the same blue quilt square? That’s a pretty strong coincidence.

    —–

    James, the corruption is a huge problem and runs so deep that I’m not sure how we’ll ever get away from it. It’s on both sides, and the smaller emerging parties are going to find they can’t get anything done unless they play the same game.

    I don’t feel my identity is wrapped up in a party or ideology, but I’m committed to the agendas that are important to me and only one party wants to achieve those things. The other stuff – corruption, imperfect policy, etc – all deserves to be identified and corrected.

  377. Final note on #1, Dennis. The quote you included is from April this year and the report also includes this caveat:

    “The report from Medicare’s Office of the Actuary carried a disclaimer saying it does not represent the official position of the Obama administration. White House officials have repeatedly complained that such analyses have been too pessimistic and lowball the law’s potential to achieve savings.”

    The article I linked is from last month, after cooler heads have examined it. Even so, I still think the reform bill will need reform and like PFesser, I would rather scrap it and start over. An impossible feat, however, given the present congress. I still support single-payer, the same thing Obama advocated for in 2007, before he got quagmired in corporate lobbyville. Regardless, this is NOT the major drain on our assets or future generations that these illegal wars are.

  378. http://www.adn.com/2010/10/12/1498718/we-may-only-have-to-vote-for-joe.html
    Mr Constitution has stuck his foot in his mouth a lot lately…
    Folks are starting to shift away from his tainted tea…

  379. No one here has mentioned another problem, too generous pensions. Omaha faces a recall election because mainly Democrats negotiated unaffordable pensions and benefits with fire fighters and police officers. The city is in an uproar over the new taxes.

    Betsy’s Page discusses a national problem. The Empire Center for New York State Policy, a research organization that studies fiscal policy. They say New York’s pensions are unsustainable over the long term.

    David Brooks wrote “New Jersey can’t afford to build its tunnel, but benefits packages for state employees are 41% more expensive than those offered by the average Fortune 500 company. These benefits are rising by 16% a year.

    States across the nation will be paralyzed for the rest of our lives by unfunded pension obligations that if counted accurately amount to $2 trillion or $87,000 per plan participant.

    All in all, governments can’t promote future prosperity because they are strangling on their own self-indulgence.”

    “And as Brooks points out, this is a Democratic scandal… They sold their soul to the public employees unions.”

    Good luck on finding the truth for a liberal or a conservative, Dennis. Ideology becomes part of our identities as religion or family culture does. To each one of us, it is the truth, and opposing views are lies and distortions.

  380. delurkergurl, drive by sniping seems to be your only skill. Do come back when someone lends you an idea and allows you to claim it for your very own.

  381. Dear Fellow Americans:

    For only the second time in my adult life, I am not ashamed of my country. I want to thank the hard working American people for paying $242 thousand dollars plus additional expenses for my vacation in Spain. My daughter Sasha, several long-time family friends, my personal staff and various guests had a wonderful time. Honestly, you just haven’t lived until you have stayed in a $2,500.00 per night suite at a 5-Star luxury hotel. We only booked 70 rooms for our friends, staff and family. Thank you also for the use of Air Force 2 and the 70 Secret Service personnel who tagged along to be sure we were safe and cared for at all times.

    Air Force 2 only used 47,500 gallons of jet fuel for this trip and carbon emissions were a mere 1,031 tons of CO2. It costs only $11,500 per hour to operate Air Force 2 and each additional plane for the other members of our party group. These are only rough estimates, but they are close (who’s counting?). That’s quite a carbon footprint as my good friend Al Gore would say, so we must ask the American citizens to drive smaller, more fuel efficient cars and drive less too, so we can lessen our combined carbon footprint.

    I know times are hard and millions of you are struggling to put food on the table and trying to make ends meet. I do appreciate your sacrifice and do hope you find work soon. I was really exhausted after Barack took our family on a luxury vacation in Maine a few weeks ago. I just had to get away for a few days. Will write more from Martha’s Vineyard where we will spend our sixth vacation this year with more of our family and friends.

    Cordially,

    Michelle Obama

  382. I agree with PFessor, and I remember the paniced look on the faces of the politicians as they met to discuss the emergency. I believed them when they said we were on the edge of a cliff.

    Bush and Obama consulted on how best to handle the rescue during the end of the Bush and beginning of the Obama administration. That also told me we faced serious problems. I supported Obama’s taking over the auto companies because it saved a lot of jobs.

    The stimulus and medical insurance law were misguided and mismanaged. Our high unemployment rate was predictable because the administration spent more money to support governments than to encourage job creation. Relatively little new wealth was created, and uncertainity over future policies frightened small businesses and consumers into hoarding their money.

    Real Clear Politics, I think, cited a study showing people’s contradictory opinion of the health care law. A majority still opposes it, but it also likes some of its features which are now being revealed.

    The Heartland enjoys conditions more conducive to recovery than many other parts of the country. Recently North Dakota became the first state to leave the recession. Omaha radio station KFAB quoted a study which showed Houston and Omaha to be the top two cities favorable to finding jobs, starting new businesses, etc. Fifteen regional cities like Des Moines, Denver, and Minneapolis also have some of the country’s best economies.

  383. In your earlier entries you attacked people and got precisely the response you wanted.

  384. PFesser53, if you will read my early entries I tried to get them to actually entertain the ideas that I wrote rather than skirting them. I’ve found it almost impossible to ever get a direct response from the Liberal side of the isle when I directly confront them on their ideology. I genuinely want to understand their point of view because in my opinion they are passionate to the point of radicalism on grounds that I can find no possible logical basis to support. Thus why I feel that Liberalism is a disease and a real threat to our way of life. I get, irked, at Liberals because after literally years of trying, I have yet to have a single liberal directly engage the questions I set forth and I feel there must be an underlying reason for this, I just can’t yet comprehend what that might be.

    My perspective. I am a philosopher at heart. I want the truth and nothing more. Right or wrong I win so the outcome doesn’t matter as long as at the end of the day the truth is reached. I and 2 professors from my college days keep in touch couple times a month to discuss these topics and I find it disheartening that outside our little group that so few share my belief for finding the truth at all costs.

  385. poolman 2-6 is open for business lets move on. As for there being no cost to health care over time. One of the numbers I posted came from Obama’s own people. They said after charting it out over that same 10 year period that his plan missed the mark. Here is the quote again. “The overhaul will increase national health care spending by $311 billion from 2010-2019″

  386. Dennis -

    “If this is still not enough to get any kind of intellectual honesty then I give up.”

    Disagreeing with you does not constitute intellectual dishonesty.

    I can give you some unsolicited free advice if you are interested, which I guess is worth what you pay for it.

    I’ve been sparring with some of these folks a long time. It is not a walk-over. Some of them are really smart and have thought out their positions very, very well. You are going to have to do your homework – (by the way, I in general agree with a lot of what you say) – but you cannot just declare victory and retire from the field; they will clean your plow for you.

    Loganius -

    My position on the bailout has changed considerably. From what I have read, there is general agreement by economists – both from the Keynes school and the Friedman school (mine) that a bailout was necessary. It is an operating economy that creates wealth; if you starve it for money, people don’t work and wealth is not created. The disagreement is over how much, not whether, it should have been done. I tend to be a minimalist and think it should be over by now. The takeover of GM may turn out to be a good or bad thing, depending on how they use this opportunity. A similar bit of preference for Harley-Davidson turned it from a real dog to a powerhouse, and let me retire early. (I’m back at work now, but enjoying life.)

    Obamacare IMHO is a real non-starter, but that is because external pressure kept them from doing REAL reform, which from where I sit with thirty-five years in medicine, is a MUST. The two things they never really dealt with are predatory attorneys and predatory insurance companies, both of which are raping the system which, of course, just passes the cost on down to the patient. My income hasn’t gone down at all in the past many years, nor has that of malpractice attorneys or insurance company executives. When juries give out multimillion-dollar awards, they need to know that it is they who ultimately pay the bill, and the lawyers who walk off with the gravy, but tort reform was explicitly left out of the bill because, paraphrasing Harry Reid, “We are barely going to get the healthcare bill passed at all, and we are not about to take on the trial lawyers.” IMHO they need to scrap the current bill and start over. And this time, grow some balls.

  387. Just for the record, I never said Dennis was wrong in every word he spoke. Even a broken watch is right twice a day. I just choose not to give a jerk more respect than he gives. I have no use for people like him.

  388. Thank you, M&H. I’m voting Democrat because the republicans and the tea party are clearly not capable of recognising principled behaviour or common justice. Joe From Alaska has benefitted from federal income support programs but wants them abolished for others; he is deep, deep in credit card debt but goes on and on about federal indebtedness. Sharron Angle thinks raped teenagers who get pregnant should be – what – strapped down on a gurney and made to give birth if they want an abortion. She also has benefitted from Federal income support but wants it all stripped down to nothing.

    I’m not insulting anyone here, by the way, there’s no name-calling: just reporting the facts.

    So yep, I’m voting Democrat and to be honest I would even if the Dems were running a yellow dog, because the Republicans are providing no possible choice within our own species anyway.

  389. Hi Congenial Gang,

    Isn’t it great to have hours and hour of good news on the air for a change! Of course I’m referring to the Chilean miners rescue. It lifts the spirits. The second miner brought up some rocks from below as gifts.

    When our boys were growing up and went on a field trip, camping trip or such, each of them always tramped around and brought me the prettiest rock he could find. To this day, I still don’t know why they did it. When our youngest son was in high school he went to National Championships with his swim team in Ft. Lauderdale, FL.

    When he got back he told me he was looking all around the beach for a rock, any rock, but couldn’t find one. So he got a Dixie Cup and was filling it up with sand to bring back to me. One of his teammates asked him what he was doing. He laughed when our son told him he was bringing back some Ft. Lauderdale sand for his mother. The next scene however was a dozen or so kids on the beach, filling up Dixie Cups with sand for their mothers.

    Those pretty rocks from all over are resting on a thin bed of Ft. Lauderdale, FL sand in a special copper bowl on the credenza here next to my computer.

    They are among my most treasured and prized possessions.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom.

    Auntie

  390. Loganius, the latest information shows TARP has been mostly repaid, and at a profit to the US taxpayer. Also TARP was originated in the last administration.

    A single-payer system is way better than ours is. Costs half per person and covers everyone – no exceptions. You say you dislike big business types, well if you truly did, you would deplore health insurance companies and big pharma. Truth is these big businesses got us by the cajones, even under the new health care bill. Where do you think all that extra cost per person is going? And the result still places us around 37th in the world.

    Have you looked at GM and its stock lately? Obama saved them from going under. That is a lot of jobs, and no one in the government is running their show. So the government takeover was just bullshit. I personally think they should have allowed them to go under, but then I’m not real keen on government intervention. It isn’t just the auto industry. Expecting the corporations to monitor themselves hasn’t worked. Deregulation has been happening since Reagan, and though we experienced many years of growth, we now see the result of deregulation and unbridled greed. Unfortunately the capitalist model is breaking down. There is no middle class to sustain it. Supplies greatly exceed demand. Competition pushed labor overseas, taking jobs and wealth out of the US. Think Walmart. Deregulated banks and Wall Street did the most to cause the present financial crisis.

    As to the “czars”, the latest data shows he has no more than Bush had.

    I’m with you on the extention of the Patriot Act. It is wrong, imo, and NEEDS to be repealed.

    Now as far as our treatment of other countries and their leaders, I have to disagree. We have been the bully in the playground for way too long and some humility is good for our image in the world. Knowing what I know about our meddling in all the nations you list, it is amazing that we still garner any respect. Some real history into our meddling would serve to enlighten you here. Especially now that much is known due to the FOIA.

  391. Dennis, the cost of new health care bill versus the existing system will at worst case scenerio be equal. This data claims it will be less and has that passage of the bill has already slowed the annual increases that insurance companies have been charging, based on the past decade. So the costs you list are quite accurate, but you must COMPARE them with present costs. The numbers you list are NOT over and above present costs. Plain enough?

  392. Hi Congenial Gang,

    We have been watching the Chilean miner’s rescue! Spectacular!!! It was quite an emotional moment to witness when the first one successfully steped out of the capsule to greet his family.

    The effort will be going on all night. It just proves that people CAN work together, world wide, to achieve goals. the Chilean government has acquited itself beautifully.

    This is a wonderful day for humanity!!!!!

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom.

    Auntie Jean

  393. The best thing about free speech, people expose themselves, the tricky part is ignoring them. Just let people like Dennis pass through without a comment, eventually the stink will dissipate.

  394. Wow, I missed a lot while sleeping and then working. I’d have to say that Dennis touched on a few points where Obama has gone wrong. Continuing TARP was bad (Bush and Obama) and nationalizing the auto industry was a payout to the Unions (the Indiana Teachers’ Retirement Fund took a big hit but the Unions received all of theirs). Obamacare is a monstrosity, and there should never be a single-payer system. It is the opposite of what our founders had in mind for the federal government. The Constitution, The Federalist Papers, and many many letters by Thomas Jefferson will show you that. We seriously needed a reform of the healthcare industry and still do since there is practically nothing in this bill that protects consumers other than my neighbor’s bum 25 year old who is still trying to find himself. Whoever thinks that its cost-effective is either missing some classes from business 101 (the only true way to reduce costs is to reduce services which is why people are warning about death panels, oh wait, this procedure is not allowed anymore) or hasn’t looked into England’s healthcare too deeply since it is actually in real bad shape.

    Granted, the economy was in a tailspin at the end of Bush’s presidency, but some would argue that it was orchestrated by more than just those big business types that everyone hates (me included). It also includes the lack of oversight by republicans and democrats (Barney Frank) and theory that everyone should own a house since we know not everyone can afford a house or the McMansion dream homes they want. Still, Obama is tripling Bush’s worst deficits and racking up national debt faster than the previous 4 presidents combined. This is not good. Tea Partiers do not hate the government as people say. Tea Partiers hate the rapid expansion of government. The problem with government is that it will never seek to stop growing itself. It will always try to expand and forcing me to participate in commerce is certainly an expansion outside of the Constitution. Read Thomas Jefferson, not Karl Marx, or Mao Tse-tung as some of Obama’s czars like to claim is their political hero (Anita Dunn). Speaking of czars, yes Bush had a few, Obama has appointed numerous czars (more than 50 at the latest count), none of which have been vetted by the Senate (check and balances) and which are helping to set national policy. This is just wrong, wrong, wrong, not to mention the ones that have had to be fired or quit under pressure after their communists (czar = communists) leanings were found by media sources outside of CNN and MSNBC.

    Extending and expanding the Patriot Act? I’m sure that has a lot of liberals mad. I hope so. It has me mad and I’m an independent conservative, a libertarian of sorts.

    Finally, the things that have given me the most disdain for our (ours, not yours) current President are, one, his apology tour through the middle east and Europe. I don’t think America needs to apologize for coming to Europe’s aid twice. I don’t think that America needs to apologize for keeping South Korea out of Kim’s hands. I don’t think America needs to apologize for helping Afghanistan fend off the Russians, Iraq fend off the Iranians, and later the Kuwaitis fend of Saddam. I don’t think that America needs to apologize for sending millions and millions of dollars in aide (which we are borrowing from China) to countries all over the world and exporting technologies developed right here in America. As part of this apology tour, Obama bowed twice foreign heads of state. This is not protocol for heads of state, and it is a slap in the face of any red-blooded American who believes in equality, where each of us are equal. The symbolism of bowing to the King of Saudi Arabia and later in Japan should be embarrassing to us all. I’ll take a bumbling GWB before I take a President who shows subservience to a foreign head of state. Second, I loathe this administration’s support for Manuel Zelaya in Honduras. For Obama’s slow response to the crack down in Iran and to the slaughter of servicemen and women at Ft Hood in my home state of Texas, people told me that he just wants to get all of the facts. On Honduras, Obama and Hillary Rotten were quick to support Zelaya and call his ouster a military coup. This was far from the truth. Zelaya’s Hugo Chavez styled take over attempt was turned down my the Honduras Supreme Court. Zelaya planned to go ahead, so the Honduras Congress impeached him (just as we can do here) and ordered him to halt. After receiving permission from their Supreme Court again, Congress sent the military to remove him from office and from the country. Yet, our President, the naked maoist that I believe he is (so many of his appointees and czars have claimed affinity to the Chinese mass murderer) supported Zelaya. I thought that this was embarrassing for the leader of the free world.

  395. I don’t know why I bother, morbid hope I guess that one of you might act with some dignity and intellectual honesty. Hasn’t happened yet but here goes.

    According to the Christian Science Monitor the cost of the Health Care bill will be over $1 Trillion.

    CBS News reports from the Congressional Budget office report that the cost will be 1 trillion dollars over 10 years.

    Also in that report Obama’s own financial advisers said his bill missed the mark for creating a surplus, and I quote “The overhaul will increase national health care spending by $311 billion from 2010-2019″. Those are their numbers,

    SmartMoney reports that the cost will be 1 trillion over 10 years. A large portion of the money they will get to pay for this will come from the top money earners (ie business owners) and by government estimates in the form of a new Sur tax. Quote “The tax is expected to raise about $540 billion” Guess we have more unemployment increases to look forward too.

    If this is still not enough to get any kind of intellectual honesty then I give up.

  396. delurkergurl -

    “Those Chilean miners could be freed tonight! I pray it goes smoothly!!!
    A judge has ordered the military to immediately halt enforcement of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell.
    A good day, I’d say!”

    Oh. My. God. A *marvelous* day.

    I just wonder what these guys are going to be thinking, sliding up a 2000-foot hole that is not perfectly straight, in an 18″ space, standing up, with that wall inches from their faces. I have gotten claustrophobic in my old age; I used to crawl under houses to do wiring and plumbing; the thought of being between those floor rafters and having to inch out feet first gives me cold chills now. I couldn’t imagine…fainting would be a very serious possibility – a big one, and you would be in a forced standing position. That could be bad, since you wouldn’t get the benefit of falling to a horizontal position to restore blood flow.

    I know these are ballsy guys, but if I were the surgeon in charge, I’d send down aviation suits with the inflatable bladders. That and some valium.

    I’m not a pray-er, but I pray it goes very, very well.

    DADT – an idea whose time has…….GONE

  397. Dennis -

    “Ahh well, was fun while it lasted”.

    Damn you, Dennis! Are you going to puss out? When am I going to get some help around here with some balls, other than James and Craig?! (Hi Craig – how was your trip?)

    “Another group of Liberals shot down in their prime. ”

    I don’t think so…some of these folks are pretty hard to kill. You aren’t getting your war reporting from Baghdad Bob, are you?

    “But please, I deserve none of the credit.”

    Yes and no. Actually no and yes. You deserve no credit – True. But of course no credit’s due anyone because you sort of shot your wad. (Look that up; it’s not what you think, you dirty minded people – especially you, Donna – what’s with you and this masturbation stuff, anyway?)

    “Twas the quality of my opponents that made this such an easy task. Fish in barrel really.”

    I think you better look again, Pard. Your fish are carrying off your barrel.

    god, are there no conservatives and libertarians out there that are not girlie-men?

  398. PFesser, it was a long rant and I wanted a debate, but I don’t think he was quite truthful about admitting when he is wrong. We had a lot of discussion here regarding the health care legislation, and I wasn’t happy with the final version, but it IS still better than no health care bill. Though it is merely health insurance reform and all the lawyers have been working to find the loopholes. Likely, we will need reform from the reform.

  399. Jack Black as Nathan Spewman

  400. “Nothing but masturbation and about as attractive.”

    Let’s not be hasty. Depends on who’s doing it, Pee Wee or Jenna.

  401. poolman -

    “Dennis, you want to move on to points 2-6 when you haven’t even cited sources for your “facts” regarding point 1? I guess you think you proved your point somehow by ranting about liberals and belittling me and others. No wonder you can’t find anyone to debate, you don’t know how it works.”

    I was going to engage (Mr. Sulu), but Dennis’ posts were just too long and tough to parse. Maybe a point or two at a time…

  402. Poolman: Dennis is simply doing what Christine O’Donnell disapproves of. He comes on to this blog and sets it up so that he can say “I win! I win!” Nothing but masturbation and about as attractive.

  403. Dennis, you want to move on to points 2-6 when you haven’t even cited sources for your “facts” regarding point 1? I guess you think you proved your point somehow by ranting about liberals and belittling me and others. No wonder you can’t find anyone to debate, you don’t know how it works. :roll:

  404. Good to see you made it back safely, Craig. My mom and stepdad are still over there until the 20th. They are doing a clippership tour right now. It is their 4th trip there, they really like it. My mom is full-blooded Italian, but can’t speak the language.

  405. Just got back in checking in and yes, I misspoke and meant thousand, not million on deaths due to lack of health insurance – my bad. One every 12 minutes, per the Harvard study.

    As far as the OBL death notice and info, its available at a multitude of sources, google it yourself. I just posted the first one that came up and had credible sources and links. The obituary appeared in an Egyptian newspaper. It is quite common knowledge outside of the US. He had kidney failure and was receiving dialysis. The real OBL tapes from Oct, Nov, and Dec 2001 show his physical decline. All the rest that followed are faked, as determined by experts. Even the Pakistani president Musharraf mentioned it in an interview with CNN in January 2002. It is kind of hard to justify a war if your “enemy” is dead and they can only come up with 50 members of Al Qaeda.

  406. Ahh well, was fun while it lasted. Another group of Liberals shot down in their prime. But please, I deserve none of the credit. Twas the quality of my opponents that made this such an easy task. Fish in barrel really. Off to the next group to find that one Liberal who can back what he or she spouts. I suspect he or she lives with bigfoot…the search goes on.

  407. Oh man, it’s a baaaaad day for the haters out there. Out of curiosity, I went to see what the readers at Fox News were saying. Predictably disgusting and sad.

  408. Margaret and Helen used to be cute. Now they do too much hating themselves to be cute.

  409. Those Chilean miners could be freed tonight! I pray it goes smoothly!!!

    A judge has ordered the military to immediately halt enforcement of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell.

    A good day, I’d say!

  410. Welcome back, Craig. I’m sorry you got robbed, but glad you had a good time. I forgot to tell you when you cross the street there, you take your life in your hands.

  411. oh and poolman, Philip Brennan, from newsmax.com is your source that proves Osama’s death? With sound backing like that I can’t imagine why your claims are so hard to believe. You sure showed me.

  412. James..and Pfessor,
    Just back from Italy, Sicily, and Malta.
    Got fleeced by Gypsies but it was my own stupid fault.

    At Spanish Steps kid gives my wife three roses and allows me to take a pic. Then he offers all the roses and to take a photo of both of us…OK.
    Then he says turn and kiss her. I figured OK..but he goes the the camera. Nope. Kid holds out hand I give him pocket change and he holds it out in front of me and looks at me like “hey stupid, I just took your pic with my roses and I want MORE LOOK” So there goes 5 Euros. That was the only issue.
    Other than that..Italian traffic laws are merely suggestions. Stop signs are laughed at and you can park anywhere. Just leave your phone number on the car and if your double parked..they will call and you can come and move your car.

    Country shuts down from 1-4pm. Nice people mostly. Wife did good with her studying of Italian and at least made us look good when ordering
    meals.

    As far as WWII. They don’t study it. We asked our driver and he said they studied a little about WW! but hardly nothing about WWII. Had a driver about 58 yo. and car for the day and visited Anzio. Driver got us in general area. The driver asked me my opinion about Mussolini. I said we looked at him as a puppet of Hitler and a mad man. The Italian had nothing but good things to say about the Duce. As to the museum,we just happened into it with my google map and pic of museum matched up with bldg. in front of us. What a shame though. Their museum to Anzio is merely a garage size room with four cabinets and a video showing highlights of the time. Met a very animated Italian vet who was delighted to show us the actual landing sights and then took us to Anzio cemetery.
    More than 7800 white crosses of just Americans who were lost during the Sicily, Anzio and early part of the Italian fight at Salerno. There are also British Comnon wealth and German cemeteries there as well.

  413. Thanks Grandma Katie, I’ll work on that while you continue to help me prove that Liberals would rather do personal attacks than make statements of merit.

  414. Thanks delurkergurl. 45,000 sounds more realistic.

    I heard about the lifted ban too.

    I’ll let you know when the e mail comes.

    You’ve got to admit, Dennis has increased traffic. I was amazed when I checked in.

  415. Dennis – if you are as smart as y ou think you are th en learn the diference between to and too.There are a few of you who don’t seem to have much to do d uring the da y. LOL

  416. Donna,
    Thanks for the Birthday present.
    posted 8:28am October 9th ..almost to the minute.
    I believe it went something like this..
    “Craig occasionally feigns courtesy and then reverts to his attention-seeking, “see how outrageous I can be” shtick. When he acts like a gentleman, people largely treat him as such or ignore him.”

    Out of country and out of touch with board and still being bullied.
    Donna, TEX may have a point or two..having read his description of your posts. But I ask, where have I been less than courteous to you?
    I have taken a lot of your guff but don’t recall my responses in the same intensity being tossed back at you..
    Gosh..
    Glad to be back in the Good ole USA…!

  417. “Per the Liberal norm, if someone doesn’t play according to your rules and dares offend your delicate sensibilities you lose the ability to formulate any effective argument. ”

    Per the right wing norm, if someone doesn’t play according to your rules and dares to offend your delicate sensibilities you lose the ability to formulate any effective argument.

    Pot, meet kettle.

  418. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/17/eveningnews/main5318652.shtml

    This study said 45,000.

  419. Lori, I know the correct answers to your statements, because I was paying attention.

    I also know Dennis is good. He doesn’t seem confuzzled to me. Your comments are a smoke screen and irrelevant to Poolman and Dennis’ discussion. Not that there is anything wrong with doing that.

    What I don’t know is if 47 million Americans die each year because they have no health insurance where are all of the Americans coming come? Ten years will take 470 million Americans, and Will Smith will be parked on a building with his radio transmitter a la “I am Legend.”

    Poolman, surely that is a typo.

  420. The ban on deep water oil drilling has been lifted.

  421. thanks poolman for avoiding even direct quotes to save face. 3 things you can count on in this world Death, Taxes, and Liberals avoiding anything that might make them admit their wrong. Next.

  422. Ive tried to debate Liberals for years, and all I ever see is what we get here. As per the previous couple of statements, we talk about talking, but never manage to say anything of merit.

    Per the Liberal norm, if someone doesn’t play according to your rules and dares offend your delicate sensibilities you lose the ability to formulate any effective argument. Depending on my mood I find it amusing, frustrating, but mostly sad. All Liberals do is spout off talking points, then whine and cry about form whenever presented with logic. I leave points 2-6 open as they are.

  423. Obviously, understanding plain English deludes you. But when you paint with such a broad brush, you miss the details.

    Your health care position isn’t clear, other than you claim we shouldn’t deal with it now and with us being this far in debt. I stated that NOT dealing with it causes us to go DEEPER in debt, so it is better to address it NOW. You cannot cite facts that it is costing us more now, since we passed health care, you only state (incorrectly) that I say it isn’t costing us anything. Where did that come from? Obviously, reading comprehension is NOT your strongest point. Feel free to enjoy your state of bliss. Have a nice day.

  424. Dennis, why can you make statements you assert are facts without any substantiation but accuse others of the same?

    Why do all you whatever-you-are (in my mind it rhymes with strolls) act the same way? Blaze in with an insult. Spew hyperbole… talking points… rhetoric… put downs… insults… demands for respect… put downs… crying foul… hyperbole… rinse… blather… repeat… You even use the exact same phrases as others who have passed here before you. You wonder why people reject you without listening? It’s because we’ve heard the song before and it wasn’t that good.

    You don’t get to insult people and put up hollow debate and then insist on better in response. This the blog of a pair of fine women, not a playground. Grow up.

    If we’re so far beneath you, how about you find a place that’s more worthy?

  425. “allows.”

  426. Dennis: I don’t feel bad in the least. And you can add trite and banal to your resume since both describe you.

    What is wonderful is that you claim (and may actually believe) that you really want to debate. But then you sprinkle in the “helping to keep you honest,” and another “as your knowlege base alows,” and then accuse me–about whom you know precisely nothing–of having a lack of self-awareness.

    So you have, in breathtakingly quick fashion, showed that you have precisely the qualities of which you accuse others. Projection is one of the most primitive defense mechanisms.

    Oh–and thanks for the good wishes in what I “attempt to do.” Having graduated from one of the top tier law schools in the country and practiced with one of the better known firms for almost 30 years, I manage to bumble along.

    Perhaps you might wish to engage in a bit of the self-evaluation that you espouse. It’s not an attractive picture and certainly not one that has any sort of constructive impact. However, it apparently allows you to feel like you have a modicum of intelligence by insulting others.

  427. Don’t feel bad Donna. I feel bad enough for you for the both of us. An inability to examine your own web of beliefs objectively is a terrible place to find ones self. Best of luck in all you attempt to do.

  428. poolman again as predicted you start off with my pics, say nothing of merit, rather blow them off and retreat. As for debate rules, you didn’t ask but as common courtesy seemed to elude you I offered them up to help you try and save face.

    I will look and find some facts for you on health care. Again the fact you think its not going to cost anything just amazes me to no end. I lack the words to articulate just how unbelievable this is to me.

    As for the war part of what I said and you avoided. Since the obvious has again eluded you I will hold your hand and help you along the way. First my quote.

    “We took down a nations government. We destabilized the region. We have a moral and ethical responsibility to finish what we started.”

    By all means do tell me your ethical stance on how you justify backing out of our obligations in this matter.

    I apologize poolman for having to help keep you honest..again, but what I said was irrelevant was if you agreed or disagreed with the war. It is a moot point at this juncture. It had nothing to do with continued aggression as you tried to claim.

    I happened to agree with the war. Iraq invaded another sovereign nation. We kicked them out, and took away their attack force and left them enough to defend themselves vs Iran. Sadam agreed to allow inspectors in as part of not loosing his dictatorship. For 18 Months he would not allow inspections. HE shot at our jets many times in that 18 months. the U.N. sanction him over and over again and he ignored them. We told him we would take him down if he didn’t comply. He did not comply.

    You have 2 choices. Allow the U.N to become defunct and useless, or back their sanctions and make them an effective organization. He killed 5,000 of his own citizens of a different sect with nerve agents. This was clearly an evil man. But as long as it isn’t happening to you Liberals I guess that is ok. Situational ethics tends to be very comforting.

    Not to distract from my previous posts, please feel free to move on to any of my other points 2-6 as your knowledge base allows.

  429. since you feel that way (and that an opposing political viewpoint is a “disease”), there’s really no point in attempting to engage. I’m happy to debate issues with people who are genuinely open. For those such as yourself, who projects your own closed-mindedness onto others, there’s no reason. And, while you may congratulate yourself that others aren’t “up to the challenge,” in your brief tenure here, it’s apparent you don’t present much of one.

  430. Dennis, first of all, I never asked you for debate rules. I do quite well, so don’t cloud the issues. I told you in my first response to your rant that I cannot devote the day to this. I have real work to do.

    You FINALLY responded to my first question after I asked it twice. Those were your “good” representatives for the T party movement. I won’t spend time debunking them. Though I am surprised Scott Brown is still considered one of their ilk after his voting record in office. I thought they disclaimed him. Joe Miller is about to self-destruct and the others you mentioned are not worth discussing, imo.

    Next, you haven’t cited facts for your claim of the billions being spent over and above the usual dollars going toward Health care by our government. Just because you say it is common knowledge isn’t justifying your position. Oh, and there is plenty about water and ice that scientists don’t understand, wet and cold are relative as hot and dry are – so bad analogy, imo.

    You brought up the debt we are putting upon future generations first, so I pointed to the war and war machine as the biggest cost of our present and future debt. Health care is down the list from that expense. You say it is irrelevant at this point, and I say that is false. War and continuing aggression IS relevant, now and in the future. You believe the fake OBL tapes, eh? Not even our head of the CIA admits to their authenticity. We enabled OBL and created Al Qaeda. We also set up Sadaam in Iraq to begin with. Here is some proof of OBL’s demise.

    Osama’s death certificate.

  431. All I can do is judge by what I see. What I see is avoidance of every piece of logic I have set forth. Just a I predicted would happen. lori, the best debates are by people who don’t agree. Again if you feel up to the challenge please feel free to weigh in.

  432. People who make statements about how liberals “always” do things, or say “if your knowledge base alows,” or the like really aren’t in a position to opine about courtesy or respect.

  433. Dennis, I can’t argue something when we don’t even agree on the premise of the “arguement”.

  434. lori, by all means step up to the plate, if your knowledge base allows and directly address any of the points I made.

  435. additional fyi on debate. It is a common courtesy not to mention honest, to directly the points I make, as I did with your question posed to me, then elaborate beyond that. To just avoid the question and elaborate is cowardly at worst and disingenuous at the least.

  436. Poolman,

    Only a third of Americans (34%) correctly say the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) was enacted by the Bush administration.

    Nearly half (47%) incorrectly believe TARP was passed under President Obama.

    Another 19% admit they do not know which president signed the bank bailout into law.

    I think you are talking to one of the 47 percent who just are confuzzled as to who did what when!

  437. How is it “ethical” to allow 47 million Americans to die every year because they have no health coverage? Yeah, talk ethics all you want. The actions speak louder than words.

  438. Gotta calla spade a spade here. Distract and avoid is always the course of action for the Liberals. Lets stay on topic. Maybe comment on something I actually said this time, just how an actual debate works fyi.

    Please show me the news story where they found Osama’s body. I’ll produce video tapes long after 2001 showing him.

    The fact you think health care is somehow free, I’ve got to say floors me. But it might explain your support. You didn’t know the government was putting in massive dollars into this? I had thought this was public common knowledge along the level of water being wet and ice being cold.

  439. If you have “ethical” issues for our kids and grandkids, how can you send them to war? Killing civilians, destroying countries, absorbing depleted uranium that leads to cancers and birth defects for generations to come. How is that ethical, let alone beneficial?

  440. Jim, sorry, I dont read any of your posts that aren’t addressed to me.

    Taking a quick glance at the post you cited makes me even more confuzzled than I was before. I’m sorry I just don’t know WTF you are talking about.

    So best just to leave it at that.

  441. Sorry, Dennis. Cite the source of your “fact” for the billions being spent right now and in the future that is over what we normally would be spending.

    As for Osama, he has been a scapegoat too long, considering he has been dead since December 2001. Neocons started the war. Your buddies calling themselves “conservatives.” The Pentagon could not account for almost 2 TRILLION dollars two days before 9/11, and low and behold, the naval accounting office at the Pentagon was destroyed and any paper trail that led to it on that day. Now it is forgotten. Much like all the Enron paper that was destroyed in World Trade 7. Gone! How convenient.

  442. Fact, we are adding billions of dollars of additional spending right now and in the near future reforming health care now. Do you feel our economy can handle it? Fact, our kids and grand kids will be still paying on this debt long after we are gone, do you have any ethical issues with that? This might cost less long term, but that isn’t the question you should be asking. The question is can we survive short term with all this additional debt?

    As for the war. If you agree or disagree with it at this point irrelevant. We took down a nations government. We destabilized the region. We have a moral and ethical responsibility to finish what we started. We have a strategic interest in making sure and oil rich nation doesn’t fall into terrorist hands. Can you imagine what Osama would do with oil money backing him?

  443. #1. The cost of not doing any health reform is greater than doing something about it. It costs BILLIONS LESS to pass the bill and enact these reforms.

    The greatest cause of our debt are these two UNFUNDED wars and the Pentagon that cost us TRILLIONS. Add to that the UNFUNDED Medicare “donut hole” the last administration passed on to us.

  444. #1 My post if you read it wasn’t about what kind should we have. It wasn’t about if we need reform. It is about timing. It is about how we pay for it. It is about the effect on our economy. It is the ethical issue I have strapping the next couple of generations with our debt.

  445. I doubt I will get anything for my trouble but I will go first, see if your able to reciprocate.

    As for winners in the movement. Scott Brown won Edward Kennedy’s old Senate seat in Massachusetts;
    Joe Miller, Republican for Senate in Alaska.

    As for who I like, I like Ken Buck from Colorado(I believe), Congressman Jim DeMint, like several things about Rand Paul, and business owner David Koch. I hope this is enough info to allow you to begin an honest debate.

  446. #1 Health care should be single-payer, period. Medicare for all. No insurance company middleman. That is my position. Proven to cost the least in the long run. Even the proposed “Obamacare” which is merely insurance reform, is slated to COST LESS than not doing anything and leaving it up to the private sector. What purpose do insurance companies serve?

  447. I’ll make it easy. Lets take it in small chunks as time permits.

    #1 My argument on Health care
    #2 My comment on National debt and tax relief by G.W. Bush vs Obama
    #3 My opinion on religious freedom vs our situation today.
    #4 My opinions on taking action and why its ok to confront your foe.
    #5 my opinion on Liberals and the evil rich people.
    #6 my summery of Liberals and Conservatives.

    Nice bite-sized digestible chunks. I know you want me to engage on your terms and only the topics you feel your able to defend,but lets be fair. Lets take it point by point or not at all.

  448. Dennis, not one T party candidate worth their salt? I was trying to engage. Easy to dismiss liberals with a broad brush. I’ll give you one liberal who is perfect. Jesus. Now give me JUST one T party leader. Can’t do it, can you?

  449. “LMAO Jim, perhaps because you addressed the post to me????? Lmaooo”

    ‘I think we must be talking about two different posts.’

    Me too.

    I thought your ref was: Oct 11 @ 8:16

  450. Lori, arguing with you or me is like banging your head against a brick wall. Neither of us often concedes points. I respect determined people like you, so this has been fun for me. I hope I haven’t been too much of a pain to you.

    We agree, the Tea Party is a small libertarian- leaning group united by a few issues. We probably agree most are novices with little previous political experience. We agree rich, powerful people have discovered them and are helping finance candidates who share their attitudes and values. We agree some T party candidates should lose.

    Where we disagree, I think is the impact such a small group has on the world outside of a political party.

    As I mentioned, the USA TODAY/Gallup poll showed 30% of those polled supported Tea Party concepts, and that was close to the number of people who identify as Republicans. Since not all Republicans support the Tea Parties, that figure implies others outside of the party share the Tea Party doctrine. Other polls show similar results. Thus, one reason the Tea Party is a significant factor in this election is it energizes people who might not have voted.

    “The few special house elections where a T person has ran against a Democrat, they LOST.” Yes, that is a significant factor if another non T party candidate would have won. For example, “I am not a witch” O Donald will probably lose what would have been an easy win for the Republicans.

    “Will T People win some races? Yes they will win because they are republican, not because they are T people.”

    Yes, and no. In some races, the Republican candidates will win because the Tea Party brought in people who wouldn’t otherwise have voted. In other contests, Republican candidates may lose because of T People. T People will have little or no impact on other races. The important question is how many of each will be in play? The election will tell us.

    Politicians and news people understand their potential to act as a catalyst beyond their numbers and status. I agree with them.

  451. poolman, Sadly Liberals will never engage me on 99% of my topics I post for one reason or another. I also understand why. The logic is to sound and I have to believe you would derail yourself and lose all credibility even attempting to defend the undefendable. I don’t fault you in any way for it.

    Proof? According to you its a Rant. Rather than write anything of merit, delurkergurl sends me on my way. Your kind can never and will never be able to stand up against the light of truth. I respectfully wait for anyone on the Liberal side to engage in honest debate.

    As a moral and ethical conservative, I don’t are if I am right or wrong, both benefit me. If I am proven right, I feel better about the things I believe in. If I am proven wrong, then I have shed a false belief and I am a better person for it. I challenge any Liberal to face me on the same ethical grounds.

  452. Ooooooo! Somebody brought up the subject of candidates this time around. How about Iott who is running against Marcy Kaptur, the Congresswoman with Toledo in her District? This is the guy who likes to dress up with his buddies in Nazi Waffen SS uniforms and run around in the woods. They call themselves re-enacters. Re-enacting what? The Waffen SS was the ultimate in horror. I think they are using the term “re-enacters” to cover the fact that they are actually a cult!

    And of course this guy has lost the Jewish vote!

  453. lori -

    sorry – bit tied up today; work piled over my ears. Job security, though.

    “LMAO Jim, perhaps because you addressed the post to me????? Lmaooo”

    I think we must be talking about two different posts.

  454. The best pledge:
    I pledge that I won’t hate gay people in public and then sleep with them in private.

    That is funnier than shit and priceless. It made my day.

    Honestly, how do people really follow these morons? Because they are morons.

  455. Dennis, such a long rant. Some truths, but MANY fallacies. I don’t have the day to pick them all apart, but please, regarding your first untruth, that the tea party doesn’t hate our government or the POTUS. I can ignore the nazi mustaches, false statements, uneducated drivel, and angry signs that are part of their rallies. Can you name one tea party candidate with integrity? Just one with a clean background and honest intentions? Those are the frontrunners of the movement, let’s see if you can come up with just one.

  456. You two are the “Secretariat” of bloggers, leaving the pack 31 lengths behind in the dust!

    As for Tex, my bet is he spends most of his time in a darkened room listening to his police scanner. And he calls that a life!

  457. Hi all -

    This just in – sent to me by a right-wing friend. Pretty good. Not formatting properly but I can’t get rid of all the \n linefeeds.

    From The Manitoba Herald , Canada
    “Reported” by Clive Runnels
    Canadians: “Build a Damn Fence !”

    The flood of American liberals sneaking across the border into Canada has intensified in the past week, sparking calls for increased patrols to
    stop the illegal immigration. The recent actions of the Tea Party are prompting an exodus among left-leaning citizens who fear they’ll soon be
    required to hunt, pray, and to agree with Bill O’Reilly and Glenn Beck.

    Canadian border farmers say it’s not uncommon to see dozens of sociology professors, animal-rights activists and Unitarians crossing their fields
    at night. “I went out to milk the cows the other day, and there was a Hollywood producer huddled in the barn,” said Manitoba farmer Red Greenfield, whose acreage borders North Dakota . The producer was cold, exhausted and hungry. He asked me if I could spare a latte and some free-range chicken. When I said I didn’t have any, he left before I even got a chance to show him my screenplay, eh?”

    There’s more available online with an easy google.

  458. Thanks for stopping by, Dennis. Sorry you don’t like it here. Best wishes and better luck at the next blog. Have a great day!

  459. Error correction. No Logical person would argue that health care doesn’t need reforming.

  460. I’ve been taught to respect my elders so I will do my best, but the short sighted ignorance here is astounding. For the record I am a Conservative first and a Republican second. Lets take this point by point.

    The tea party doesn’t hate our government. They hate the bloated size of it and the wasteful spending. They hate the corrupt and the dishonest. Sadly in our government’s current form one finds themselves not voting for the better candidate but rather the lesser of two evils. I find this troublesome.

    To take shots at their Christianity just because they are part of an organized movement is a typical tactic of the Liberal movement. Taking the most extreme, which exists in any movement and trying to pain the picture that they are the norm is misleading and only cheapens your position.

    “They hate big government but instead of taking issue with the largest part of that government – the military – they take issue with healthcare.”

    There is so much wrong with this statement it hurts my eyes to read it. Like it or not we are in places in the world that, if you have any morality at all, we are responsible to finish what we started. We are currently spread out very thin and to even ponder the idea of shrinking the military at this point only makes certain more of our brave soldiers will die needlessly.

    As for health care. No logical person would argue health care needs reform. People in the Tea Party agree with this. It’s not an argument if it needs reform, but rather how and when. As a Tea Party supporter, I would prefer that it be reformed now. As a moral and ethical adult I do not nor will ever support fixing it on the backs of my children and grandchildren as we are doing now.

    It is the height of ignorance to think that when our economy is at its weakest point in over 75 years that now would b a good time to introduce the largest spending bill in history. I am for any reform that WE, can pay for. This is our problem and I cannot ethically ask my kids and grand kids to bare the financial burden to fix my problem for me. Any Liberal care to explain to me how you can possibly support doing this to our own kids?

    Thanks to Obama and his stimulus package we are now have the largest national debt in history. I would like you to consider this piece of irony. When the Evil Republican George Bush decided to help out the economy. he chose to give checks to the people of the United States because he thought the people could decide for themselves better than the government could where to spend that money. When it was Obama’s turn, he chose to stimulate big business. I guess my elders told me to listen to what people say but judge them by what they do.

    I carry a pocket constitution in my back pocket nearly everywhere I go. I am on your side with abortion. While it is not the choice for me and my family I do not believe it is the governments place to make that call. Gay marriage on the surface is fine but how do you get single people who just want the tax advantages from abusing this?

    I hear a lot of whining and complaining about how much supposed hatred there is in the Tea Party. While at the same time Liberals are unable to maintain their composure and use derogatory phrases to describe the people in the tea party movement. One of my biggest problems with Liberals is their hypocrisy. Again my elders had a phrase that had something to do with a pot calling a kettle black.

    As far as religious freedoms go, I am a huge supporter. However we are faced with a unique situation here. When an artist a number of years back put an upside down cross in a jar of urine and called it art, Christians didn’t rise up and start killing non Christians and artists. When a Cartoonist made a humorous cartoon strip about the Muslim religion, there were killings and rioting. Are all Muslims this way? No of course not. But are there many that are? Absolutely yes.

    The problem we have now is we are fighting a war like we have never fought before. There are no borders telling us where our enemy is. There are no uniforms telling us who are foes are. They hide among civilians, using them as human shields. They cut the heads off of our citizens and video tape it for the world to see. This is a war for which we are ill trained to fight. It is a war by its very nature is almost impossible to tell when it is over. It may very well never end.

    What I do know there is no room for 17th century thinking in the 21st century. They still allow a parent to kill their daughters in the name of honor. They kill or put the woman in jail if they “allow” themselves to be raped. These are just a few examples that moral and ethical people typically say are unacceptable actions. I would go so far as to say these are crimes against humanity.

    Yet Liberals want to feel sorry for them. We want to negotiate them. For you that cling so tightly to your constitution and insist that you know it before you speak about it, I encourage you to know your enemy and know what you arer up against before you try and tell is how to deal with them.

    You cannot negotiate with a religious zealot. They have been raised since childhood to hate us and have been shielded from all outside influence. They have only known the propaganda they have been fed and when someone believes the only path to heaven is to strap a bomb on themselves to kill as many innocents as possible, our only course of action is kill them before they kill us.

    Liberalism is a disease. It is without a doubt the greatest threat our country has ever faced. Our government was never intended to be the welfare program of the world. Our Liberal government is spending us into bankruptcy. Add to that the billions of dollars we are giving to foreign governments who say they hate and want to kill us. Add to that a infrastructure of roads and power systems that are on the brink of collapse from lack of care and you have what I call the perfect storm to facilitate the end of our way of life. We need to wake up and start taking care of ourselves.

    The time for playing nice is over kids. We have to decide to either protect what we have or give it all away. Thanks to Obama and those like him we are owned by our foreign lenders. The enemy is at our gate and they are among us. Grow a set and defend what you have or get out of our way and we will do it for you. I will not apologies for standing up to those who would threaten take away what I have worked so hard to achieve. I will not apologize for putting a bullet in the back of the head of someone who has already promised to kill me and everything I hold dear. I will not apologize for wanting to remove a President who has done nothing but sabotage our economy and set us up and our children for the worst economic times in our history of our nation.
    As far as these evil rich people go. It is a shame Liberals feel that being successful is a crime that needs to be punished. A Liberal would have you believe you should be ashamed for having made good choices in life and achieved financial success. Us Conservative Republicans like to call that the American Dream.
    The facts are that 80% of new jobs created on average are made by small business. It is also a fact that our economy is driven by business. If you want the economy to improve you need to create an environment where business can prosper. Because one of the best ways to achieve wealth is to start your own business, it just so happens that many business owners fall into the upper percentile range of income earners. To call the Republicans or Tea Party people evil because they want to cut taxes on this group who happens to be wealthy is either short sighted ignorance or a sad ploy to gain a sympathy vote because you think we are too stupid to understand it. Reaganomics proved by cutting taxes on business that government revenue increased exponentially.
    To sum it up. Liberals, Want to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance. Want scoreless games for our kids so no one is the looser. Want to socialize our nation to take care of people because the government knows better what they people need than the people do. They want to invite our enemy into our house and show them how nice we are and because we are so nice they will ignore hundreds of years of their religious doctrine, and trust in their compassion that we as Liberals know is in their hearts if they were but given the chance, to not slit our throats while we sleep.
    Conservatives and Tea Party. Believe in what our founding fathers set up for us and want to maintain the integrity and spirit of what they created. Want just enough government to do what it was intended to do, which is govern and protect our boarders, not interfere in our daily lives and tell us how to live. Tough love for our children so they learn life’s lessons so when they go out into that big world they are prepared. Only spend what you can afford to spend, don’t spend our kids money. Charity starts at the home. Take care of yourself and pay your debts and responsibilities. With what you have left over give to others in a responsible way that doesn’t force your family to live on the streets. Understand your foe and deal with them. There is no shame in standing up for yourself and those you love. It is not a crime to defend yourself against those who would murder and kill innocents in the name of their religion.

  461. Judith I couldn’t agree more.

    I get so weary with this sexist, puritanical , hypocritical, right wing shit, I could just puke!

    How anyone could vote for those eople and profess to be Christian at the same time is beyond me.

  462. Scroll alert to most.. This is just yet another repeat of things I’ve said to James 1000000 times….

    I swear this is the last time I will repeat my post to James on this subject!

    One moreeeeeeeeee time….

    James, I’m sorry you got nuthin!

    The few special house elections where a T person has ran against a Democrat they LOST!

    Is that a significant factor?

    The photos you have of the T people rallies are not something I’d consider significant. Racists have been around a long time. They aren’t particularly significant to me.

    What poll are you citing? There is NO poll that I know of that show T people candidates running in the general election have any more of a significant lead than any other generic republican, in fact there are several polls that show the opposite. Donna cited a few examples of the candidates up there ^.

    Every demographic study done on T people, whether a GOP study or a Democratic study clearly shows that T people are merely right right wing repubs who don’t necessarily go to church every week and who are slightly more concerned about environmental issues than their close relatives the religious right.

    No significance there. Just plain ole bat wing crazy shit.

    On more time… The T people are important to the GOP, but otherwise… not so much.

    Will T people win some races ? Yes they will, they will win because they are republican, not because they are T people.

  463. Auntie Jean – I notice they want to go back to those bad old days. I remember being told in school that I would need secretary skills to support myself until I got married. The class was not an elective for girls, it was required. I did manage, by dint of moving from one town to another, to escape Home Economics.

    A South Carolina politician has stated that no sexually active single woman should be allowed in teaching. No mention of sexually active single men being similarly excluded. I think we need to step up and demand equal requirements, don’t you?

  464. delurkergurl, your e mail has not yet arrived. I will check later today.

    The answer to Langanius is no. The Al Sharpton fronted rally included socialists, communists, and groups like Code Pink.

    William Buckely, I think, said people picked at random from the phone book would do a better job than our politicians. The older I get, the more sensible his observation seems.

    Sexism in the old days:

    My grand parents sent my aunt and her four sisters to college, but my father had to pay his own way because sons were expected to stay home and inherit the farm.

    My aunt wanted to be a geologist, but her parents said it wasn’t a fit occupation for a woman. So, she taught high school and became a WW11 WAF to escape teaching for awhile. She taught my mother, and also me in school.

    My aunt took geology courses and traveled across the world studying her avocation. When she died two weeks from 100, she gave me her massive rock collection. She would have been a better geologist than teacher. She hated the job she did for almost fifty years.

  465. Loganius, what are some specific things Obama himself has done wrong in your opinion? I believe he represents our country well and has done a lot to repair our image after the Bush administration. Where I get frustrated is when he tries to invite Republicans to participate in a non-partisan way and they laugh at him every time. The result is watered down legislation that satisfies nobody. If he quits doing that, I’ll be a happy camper.

  466. poolman -

    You are a thinker on religion; I want to recommend a book to you. “Treatise on the Gods” by Mencken. I had bought it sometime back and saved in my winter cache of Things To Read, but as the cool air and short days begin to flood into Virginia, I decided to give it a whirl.

    By the way of disclosure: Mencken was not a believer, but he set out to discuss religions in general from an objective dispassionate distance, as one might any other human invention – from their origins, through their evolution over the years and to their place in society today. I’m just getting started but he seems very fair and even-handed and has some brilliant insights. Highly recommended for winter reading.

  467. nice, love you all

  468. Hi Congenial Gang,

    I heard that there is a bill before congress regarding ‘equal pay for equal’ work. One report said women earn 77cents for every dollar men do for the same work. Another said it was 83cents. Probably the bill will be tabled until after the mid-term. When it does, the voting should be easy to predict. Progressives, all for it. Conservatives, against because…..first, it would cost companies a whole lot of money. Money is always what’s first and foremost in their thinking. Second, women already have all the rights and equality they need and blah, blah, blah. Look at Sarah Palin and all the money she makes and she’s a woman, right?

    Let me remind everyone that women were granted the right to vote, by a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT only nine years before I was born. That was legally. We all know there is a vast difference between what is legal and what goes on in the world of real life. If the conservatives gain a majority, they may even try to repeal that amendment!!!

    When I first joined the work force there was no glass ceiling. It was steel reinforced concrete! There were many, many professions that a woman was flat out not permitted to enter at all, no matter how well educated or qualified she might be. The honorable professions of teaching and nursing were about the only two that our esteemed brethren deemed suitable for us. Well, they always considered the world’s oldest profession acceptable for women, but I never considered that an option, at least not for me.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom.

    Auntie Jean

  469. I live for the appearance of your new posts in my inbox. This one “I pledge not to be a hypocrite or a Tea Party Republican – whichever comes first” made me laugh so hard. Will you be attending Jon Stewart’s Rally to Restore Sanity on 10/30?! These pledges need to be read out loud there.

  470. With 300 million people to chose from, we can’t do better than Barack Obama? I just want to know if you thought the ‘Unity’ rally led by Al Sharpton and the Unions was any more reputable than the Tea Parties.

  471. The John Birch Society may embrace the Tea Party movement, but the Tea Party movement doesn’t embrace them.

    Remember I wrote the Tea Party may save the Democratic majority. They made some bad candidate choices.

  472. Donna- he played the attorney-client thing all wrong- they are going after him, that darn MSM!

    http://www.alaskadispatch.com/dispatches/politics/7111-alaska-dispatch-sues-for-release-of-millers-personnel-records
    :-)

    Tea Party Express is reportedly holding off on the next round of supporting advertising dollars they had planned to spend on him year…
    We may be seeing the bubble burst here!

  473. That is exactly my point poolman . same same same just a different name.

  474. Oh Auntie Jean, the John Birch Society is still here and embraces the tea party movement. Check them out at:

    http://www.jbs.org/

    They like the far right and oppose any moderate republicans as much as liberals. Listen to the 10 minute clips by their CEO, if you can tolerate it. They didn’t go away. I remember a picture of Sarah Palin with their publication on her desk. Believe me, they are still around, even if the packaging has changed, the product is the same.

    Joe Miller held a press conference but would take no questions. They all have their mouthpieces and platforms, but will not address any issues. Our own governor will not debate any challengers. She cannot handle opposition. She is not very smart or knowledgable about history and facts, and that is evident in a debate. Her democratic opponent is very smart and personable. I hope we get him elected. Right now he is only 3 points behind in the polls.

    Many I know will vote for her because of the SB1070 immigration bill she signed into law and the fact that there is an R after her name. This ignorance is what is keeping this state and this nation down, imo.

  475. Not sure. Joe Miller just announced he will not talk to the media about his personal background–leaving real questions about his military service, financial practices, education, work history, and the reliability of his statements about those things in this campaign. Christine O’Donnell, Sharon Angle–no answering questions. Paladino is going down in flames (and they probably wish he WOULD stop talking).

  476. Yes, the Tea Party will fade as they all do, but today, it is the main event, and it will influence the election.

    The John Birch Society was a fringe group and never caught the public’s imagination. Ross Perot’s followers might have become latter day Tea Party members, but the conditions weren’t right. Most of his supporters followed him, as a candidate, not as part of a movement. The New Left was similar to the Tea Party and they faded after the public rejected them. However traces of their legacy remain.

    I think the Tea Party legacy could become as durable as the Populists’ and their Omaha Platform or maybe the New Left. Or not. It depends on what happens during the next ten years.

    I compare movements like the Tea Party to the rock and roll music fad. They will burst on the scene when people are ready for them, and not before or after. Then, they burn themselves out with extravagant energy and flash. Its like the poem. “My candle burns at both ends. It shall not last the night, but oh my friends and oh my foes, it casts a lovely light.” I’m writing it from memory, so I might have gotten some of the words wrong.

    You’ve probably never seen the Tea Party, Rock and Roll, and Edna St. Vincent Millay in the same paragraph. Its how I wrote unusual term papers in high school and college.

  477. Hi Congenial Gang,

    I wonder how many here remember the John Birch Society, Ross Perot, et al. They made lots and lots of racket and created quite a stir in their day. Where are they now? Faded out of collective memory.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom.

    Auntie Jean

  478. The pictures are out there, Lori, and so are polls, one of which I cited. We also know the primary and a few election results. The people I cited seem to think the Tea Party is more significant than an internal political squabble. So, I will also stick to my opinion.

    I don’t know much about Jill Lepor either. She specializes in the 1700′s and I think she writes for the New Yorker.

    Time will tell who is right. If we knew each other, I would bet you a dinner.

  479. Well James you and Jill Lepore (whoever the hell she is) have every right to your opinion.

    Until I see SOMETHING.. poll, election result, demographic profile, a photo of a rally! anything !!!!!that tells me the Tea people are any thing other than I say…..I will stick with my opinon.

  480. Thanks delurkergurl. So far, there is no sign of your e mail which is not unusual. You got mine faster than I expected.

  481. Lori, your calling me out will meet deaf ears by the end of the week. Some friends and I will be spending a few days looking for and charting an old Mormon trail in southwest Iowa.

    Until then work is piling up, and I don’t have much time.

    I agree Tea Party type movements are not unique in this country. The Doonesbury cartoon touched on what I noticed. Talking to New Left folks who took over the Democratic party in the late sixties and early seventies was a lot like talking to Tea party people.

    They were a minority, but they made a lot of noise disproportionate to their numbers. Maybe your relative youth didn’t give you the opportunity to meet some of those folks, but as our kids used to say, I am older than dirt.

    As you know, political parties don’t operate in isolation. What happens in one affects the other and by extension, the entire nation.

    Tea Parties and their allies like the anti -war protesters initially operated largely independently of political parties. Last summer, their town meeting demonstrations, calls to representatives and other activities delayed the passage of the health insurance law and scared politicians.

    In that way, they more than affected Republicans; the Tea Party was influencing the success or failure of Democratic sponsored legislation. By extension, they were causing a stir in the whole country. Tea Parties were the main topic of conversation in both parties.

    The Salamanca Press site printed an article “Third Party Candidates Could tip Close Elections” by Charles Babington, an Associated Press writer, on October 1.

    He cited Charlie Crist, Mike Castle, and Lisa Murkowski as three Republicans who have decided to or are considering running as independents. This affects Democrats too.

    Such third party candidates rarely win, but they drain votes from one or both major candidates and they can influence the outcome. In that way, they will create a stir in the Democratic party. Tea Party candidates like Ralph Nader who helped cause Al Gore’s defeat may do the same to either party’s candidates if races are close.

    I think it is still possible that the Democrats will hold majorities courtesy of the Tea Parties. If so, Democratic hearts should stir. Of course it could go the other way with Democrats reduced to saying “shut up and deal.”

    On September 24, Brad Knickerbocker wrote “…Is the Movement Slipping?” He concluded “not at all, and described the Tea Party as a “diverse movement that has a strong grass-roots element while also enjoying the financial backing of special interests, conservative billionaires, and longtime GOP operatives . Like Democrats and Republicans tea partyers are numerous enough to justify infighting.”

    C. J. Dionne wrote, “the Tea Party is not the only small group in history to wield more power than you’d expect from its numbers” “The Tea Party may be pulling a fast one on the country and the media but it has more audacity than everyone else. it will, I am sorry to say deserve to get away with it.” It appears Mr. Dionne disagrees with your observation that the Tea Party’s impact is restricted to the Republican Party and thinks its influence reaches farther.

    The USA Today.com web site posted an article by Susan Page and Naomi Jagoda–What is the Tea Party? A growing State of Mind.” They mentioned a USA Today/Gallup poll showing 30% of Americans describing themselves as Tea Party supporters. That is “equal to the number who call themselves Republicans–though many of them acknowledge they aren’t exactly sure what that allegiance means.”

    “Now the name encompasses the most energized segment of the electorate, one that has denied members of Congress nomination, created a new constellation of heroes and pushed the Republican Party to the right.”

    Jill Lepore, a Harvard historian has written a book, The Whites of Their Eyes.” She thinks that the Tea Party is more like a religious revival than political movement. She compares it to the Second Great Awakening of the 1830′s. She is another who believes the Tea Party is creating a stir outside of the Republican Party.

    My fearless prediction is on election night and after, the Tea Party will take center stage as pundits decide what just happened.

  482. The republicans finally put forth their plan! Now we can see what they stand for. :wink:

  483. LMAO Jim, perhaps because you addressed the post to me????? Lmaooo

  484. James, I replied to your email message. Just thought I’d let you know here since you said your email access can be infrequent.

  485. lori -

    Don’t be offended; no name-calling intended. That was just an observation, and not a particularly incisive one. Facts is facts.

    We all use this blog for our personal agenda – you, I – everyone. Some are more honest about it than others. No big deal. I couldn’t care less the motivations of others in making lengthy posts, just so long as they are willing to extend the same courtesy to everyone else.

    By the way, what made you think the reference was to you? A little shoe-fitting, perhaps?

  486. I pledge not to let irrational fears make me change my pledge:

    Δ ~ PEACE

  487. James, I agree the Tea people were a big story in the primary. They are a big story/factor within your party. Otherwise not so much.
    They aren’t unique. Hell the Dems have had MORE than their fair share of the leftist of left’s strong arming their way in the political picture.Hell that’s how George got the nod the first time around.
    So until someone shows me that these tea people are more than right right republicans causing a stir in their own party, I’ll continue to call ya out.

    Jim call me what you like I couldn’t care less! LOl I’ve been called worse by better.. ;-) However if you want to chat politics arm yourself more than labels and names. Until then ….

    Namaste.

  488. Way to go ladies…

    …another hit into the ‘Big Time’…

    Mike’s Blog Round Up at C&L:

    http://crooksandliars.com/swimgirl/mikes-blog-round-4

    Δ ~ PEACE

  489. I just bounced over here from crooks and liars, and you have made my Monday morning. I hope its ok if I steal a few of your lines, cause my fox watching family members will surely “love” them.

    I have a new motto for fox, “Fox News, that secure sense of falseness”.

    Keep up the good work.

  490. Thanks PFessor. That site is still available (http://jblog000.wordpress.com/2020/10/06/hello-world/#comment-10). I don’t pray much, but I will pray you find the strength to make it through.

    Yes, barking dogs and caravans.

    Harvest is near its peak around here, and a government estimate of corn supplies and useage sent the market up the daily limit on Friday. This could have implications for the ethanol industry if the price of corn becomes unprofitable. The same applies to the livestock industry and later meat prices.

    Cotton also surged up.

    The Market to Market analysist said if you need a pair of jeans, buy them now. They will cost more next year.

  491. Love it:)

  492. We don’t have cable here, so we don’t watch Fox News. I agree with Lori that 1994 set the recent precedent, and we all know Democrats were destined to lose members in Congress because its how the system works.

    I think some of the hyperbole about this election’s being unique is intended to make money through better viewership. Even liberal biased networks are portraying the election in a similar way. Turning the election into a unique, historic event also gins up voter interest, or so they hope.

    To say the Tea Party people are not a factor in this election puzzles me. Maybe I misunderstood what Lori was writing. They are a major factor. The Tea Parties were the first to mount a spirited offense against the Democratic agenda, and they dragged the Republicans along. Then, they defeated established officeholders.

    As I wrote before, I believe a Republican sweep would have been almost inevitable were it not for the more extreme Tea Party people who made it into the system.

    Pat Buchcanon, said on the McLaughin Group that if the Republicans take the House and or Senate, the struggle between regulars and Tea Party office holders will set off a quiet Republican civil war.

    For those and other reasons, I believe the Tea Party is one of the most important players during this election. If this election turns out to be a unique, historic event, the Tea Parties will have helped make it so.

    This might even set the stage for president Hillary. Anything could happen.

  493. Thank you ladies, well done, I needed that.

  494. Lori -

    I sense in your post exactly the kind of elitism that the average Joe finds so offensive. “Had no previous political knowledge…” a perfect example. Yep, these rubes don’t know a thing except what Fox tells them to believe.

    “Their perception would be this election cycle and its Tea people participants are a contributing factor in this election cycle. In in fact they aren’t.”

    In point of fact, they are.

    “Everyone has free will. There is certainly enough ways to learn the truth if a person desires to do so. If they choose just to parrot a for profit organization.. so be it.. But I will call ya out.. everytime.”

    And the “truth” is? (What *I* believe – not what *you* believe? Reckon others might have the right to see the truth as something different?)

    I could be wrong, but I think you just called *yourself* out.

    James -

    You are quite welcome. That’s what I do, and enjoy it. In point of fact, I am having similar problems in my family – father-in-law with illness, his wife with an agitated form of Alzheimers, brother in scenescence and very difficult do deal with, his daughter with near-suicidal depression; I’m the cushion between them and a medical system that often doesn’t run very well, so, like Clinton, I feel your pain.

    As to “criticism” – so what? There are almost no guidelines for posting at M&H; I endure the tedium of “history lessons” and the machinations of not-so-stealth political operatives with good humor; others may find your and my exchanges tedious as well. If so, so be it. How does the old muslim aphorism go? “Dogs bark; the caravan moves on.”

    Feel perfectly free to consult any time.

  495. delurkergurl, Thanks. The site has become something different than intended, so if you don’t mind leaving it in place for awhile, I’d appreciate it.

    I’ll send an e mail and hope it goes through.

    I still appreciate the PFessor’s help. The way I fed it to my sister in law helped her a lot during the several dark days. It was more than worth enduring any criticism people on this message board gave him or me.

    Parker, I believe you are right about De Tocqueville. He was prescient.

    Dana Webb, on KFAB Omaha said the stock market has performed worse since 1940 when Republicans control Congress and the presidency. The stock market does best when Republicans control Congress and the president is a Democrat.

  496. I’m not demonizing FOX. They make a lot of money … more power to them.

    It is however, the truth that FOX NEWS has been yammering on about this unprecedented “incumbent” backlash for 18 months.

    The truth is it does have precedence. The latest precedent being 1994.

    However if a person only listened to FOX NEWS or read wingnut blogs and had no previous political knowledge they wouldn’t know the truth.

    Their perception would be this election cycle and its Tea people participants are a contributing factor in this election cycle. In in fact they aren’t.
    .
    I’m sorry but the people who repeat these talking points are just showing me their TV and leasure reading entertainment choices. They certainly aren’t showing me their knowledge of political history.

    Everyone has free will. There is certainly enough ways to learn the truth if a person desires to do so. If they choose just to parrot a for profit organization.. so be it.. But I will call ya out.. everytime.

  497. I love these ladies, they say it like it is!

  498. It’s easy to demonize Fox News, but Fox News is a symptom, not a cause. It mostly became popular because its positions appeal to people who already feel that way.

    People who watch Fox will tell you that they like it because CNN and others are so slanted to the left and they are glad to see a network that is more “balanced.” Whether that is true or not, that is how they feel.

  499. In 1994 there were 52 house and 8 senate seats 11 govonerships LOST.

    sorry eyes aren’t open yet not that it matters much for me! LOL .)

  500. In 1994 there were 52 house and 8 senate seats 11 govonerships.

    Projections this year are not that high (even by the republican polster Rassmusan! .

    This year is not so extra ordinary, in fact it’s quite ordinary when three branches are controled by one party.

    How soon we forget! Orrrrr most likely, how much we listen to FOX NEWS.

  501. Dear Margaret & Helen

    You both illustrate precisely what is so precious about this country. Delighted to have found your blog. Going to share with my mother who is a big-time letter-to-the-editor write in Naples, Florida.
    Thank you so much for being you and sharing yourselves so gloriously!

  502. Hi Congenial Gang and idaleene on October 10, 2010 at 2:10 PM,

    On Margaret and helen’s behalf, welcome to the porch. Have a seat and we’ll bring you some pie and the beverage of your choice. Helen bakes the best pies anywhere!

    And congratulations on your upcoming birthday! I wish you many more. We youngen’s can learn a lot from your experiences. I’m only 81.

    Aloha! Namaste. Shalom.

    Auntie Jean

  503. Interesting. Anti-incumbent fever is sweeping the country, that’s for sure.

    Nobody’s been able to do it before, though. Incumbents have too much power and ability to keep themselves in front of the camera, using Americans’ own money. Was it De Tocqueville who said that the Great Experiment would work until the citizens discovered they could vote themselves money out of the public treasury?

  504. Hi all -

    Twenty-two days until the election, incidentally listed on my calendar as the “day of the dead.” Good call.

    Can we rattle the cage of Washington by voting out every incumbent up for re-election?

    YES WE CAN! (well, not likely, but possible!)

    Can we tie up the government with a ReBiblican majority and a Democrat president?

    YES WE CAN! (and this has been shown to be the conditions under which the economy always does the best. Gridlock, where Congress and the president MUST work together to accomplish important goals, but in reality can do little to interfere with the machinery of commerce.)

    Can we put enough small-government, low taxes people in place to well, get a smaller government and lower taxes?

    YES WE CAN! (again not likely, but one must have the Audacity of Hope – we can certainly start to make a dent in that long process of rolling back the military, entitlements and waste that are choking our economy)

    Do we have to elect the nutbags? Not necessarily, but unfortunately that just may happen. In the immortal words of Otto Lilienthal, sacrifices must be made.

    *********

    I just received my sample ballot in the mail. Now to craft that half-page ad, already approved by the paper:

    “The following are incumbents, and wish to be re-elected:

    Mr X
    Mr Y
    etc.

    If you think they have represented your interests, I suggest you vote for them.

    If not, I suggest you vote for their challengers, listed below.

    Mr. Z
    Mr. A
    etc.”

    We will probably get only about half out of office here locally, but the longest journey – well, you know…

    no mas, te

  505. I join Elsie in that wish!

  506. Hello, idaleene. It’s wonderful to read your perspective and hear from you. Keep coming back and adding your thoughts to the mix here.

    And let me be the first to wish you a “Happy 87th Birthday” in just 15 days!

  507. Ben frankin said allwe can =besure if is death and taxes..stop bitching about high taxes for the rich..make more pay more it is through taxes that the gov provides all those things needed to run this nation and provide for our armed services, education of the citizens (but looks like the current polotical candidates didn’t gettheir share) socailsecurity,medcare, and the list goes onand on…taxes is a method to redestribute our wealth to provide and maintain and defend out Republic…thank you my daughter told me about you too..as you can see from my email address..that is my birthdate..I have it on yhou two by a few years..on Oct 25 Iwill be 87..been interested in our political hisstory since Hoover..keep up the good work.

  508. well, delurker: it certainly says a great deal about Jim. He apparently WANTS to grandstand on this blog regardless of whether it’s of interest to anyone else. Or is so unconcerned with respecting others’ feelings that it’s not worth the nano-second it would take to go elsewhere. Must conclude this has nothing to do with genuinely wanting to be helpful.

  509. Got this link from one of my FB friends. It connects people and funding. You can see where the campaign funds are coming in from.

    http://www.muckety.com/

  510. Delurkergurl, it is like parenting, the more you stir this pot, the less likely they are to do what you want them to do.

  511. Good Lord, how dearly I love you two!!! Your comments put a song in my heart and a smile on my face. I sleep at least marginally better knowing that there are still intelligent, sentient creatures in this country that are unafraid to speak plainly, honestly, and articulately.

    Long may you live and write!!

  512. No need to mention the other blog to Jim. He rejected it instantly and then laughed at me when I got upset by that.

    I still think James would be better off without having to skim past dozens of requests that he take it elsewhere, get a life, etc., but it’s his choice to tolerate it. James, I’ll leave the blog there to use as you see fit or abandon. If you want me to toss you the keys (passwords) for it, just drop me an email at my user name at hotmail.com.

    Grandma Katie, it’s so good to see you. Sorry about your one-side issues. Is there a possibility that will subside some or will you have to work around it?

    Mother Amelia, you have quite a voting dilemma on your hands. In times like that, sometimes you have to choose a candidate you’re not happy with just to avoid an agenda you’re really not happy with. There are a lot of candidates and incumbents that are loons, crooks and hypocrites – in every party. I’d go with the party whose goals most closely match yours.

  513. my daughter sent an email – pictures of the world’s 15 most unusal animals The very last one was labeled “right=winged ding bat” GuESS who?

  514. http://wickershamsconscience.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/picking-on-joe-miller/
    Am hoping WC does a followup post now that the Borough has requested the release…

  515. http://newsminer.com/view/full_story/8858882/article-Fairbanks-borough–Joe-Miller-differ-on-personnel-claims?
    this is where it started…
    note his 2nd campaign manager is sneaking in concerns that the records may have been added to after the seperation …
    Mr Joe is a paranoic…

  516. http://alaskadispatch.com/dispatches/politics/7108-fairbanks-to-miller-let-us-release-your-records
    This is where it stands now…

  517. Alaskapi–what’s this business about his personnel records and claiming attorney/client privilege? When the supposed “client” has said there’s no privilege?

  518. Thank you Margaret and Helen for having us all in!

    All the Pledges and Contracts from the Republicans in Congress over the years have done nothing to fix anything .
    Our very own Tea Party candidate for Senator here is running around pledging to undo the 20th century with no idea how much his own stance has contributed to the mess we are in across America.
    He’s blithely prattling on about deregulating even more so we can develop our resources along with “returning” all programs currently overseen or run by the fed to the state to run…
    Oh goodie, Joe. Sounds good to your AIP buddies and suchlike.
    In a state where the fed owns almost 60% of the land , it plays well to your base who love to hate the fed…but by taking all those Tea Party Express dollars , you have already sold your soul to the big corporations waiting at the door to strip mine, drill anywhere and everywhere… Pffft!

    Embarressed Alaskan- hold your head up high!
    I know who you are and I know you did as much or more than anyone to spread the word about what a disaster-in-the-making whatzername was becoming here .
    Mr McCain let her loose. not us.

    Had that not happened, we would be just about rid of her here – as a sorry footnote and one term governor- and a caution to be more careful about anybody-but-Frank type votes.
    As it is , we are having to deal with her hand picked fruitloop in waiting while the rest of the country has to deal with her nasty divisive interjection into their affairs… yech.

  519. Still not voting Republican, however. But that’s a personal choice each of us has to make.

  520. Thank you Donna.

  521. I’ve enjoyed your posts this morning, James.

  522. Adam Green, co-founder of the Progressive Change Campaign Committee said Obama has only himself to blame for disillusioned voters who provided the winning surge in 2008. “The twenty year old kid who voted for Barack Obama and then saw this White House cut back room deals with special interests instead of truly fighting for change like the public option doesn’t need a public shaming.”

    I don’t think Obama had any choice but to make back room deals and get what he thought he could get. Politics is not all or nothing.

    However, he and the Democrats promised too much, and as after the purchase of a lemon of a car, buyers’ remorse is setting in.

    The election will tell us how pervasive Mr. Green’s attitude is.

  523. Donna, if the subject comes up again, I will mention the site.

  524. Proud to be a Humble American says Republicans will take us back to the failed and self serving policies of yore. The current “failed and self serving policies” are working so well, a CNN poll showed Bush and Obama neck and neck for worst president.

    Only two points separate them. It was 23 a year ago.

    Congratulations to Humble American for his/her success. However, his/her saying the house is paid for and the money larder is fine seems to imply “I’ve got mine. I can afford higher taxes. Too bad for you if you are still paying a mortgage.”

    My wife and I have been successful too. We are now well-off, and we also earned our money through hard work, good decisions, and luck. We don’t buy new cars or fancy toys because we remember how it was to be poor.

    This is our money, not the government’s, and we do a better job of spending it than that gaping money pit which can’t even figure out how not to send checks to dead people and prisoners. My wife and I are saving up for a scholarship fund, which will do more local good than a government program.

    We are in trouble because politicians of both parties spend too much money to buy votes. We live in a republic, not a democracy, and though I don’t agree with all of poolman’s conspiracy theories he is right about the aristocracy which rules this country and maybe the world. They just take turns running things, and little changes.

    The Tea Party represents an insurgency of the lower and middle classes against the aristocracy, and political leaders of both stripes regard them as a threat. They may even go international. Some are contacting comparable groups in Britain.

    I think the only hope Democrats have of keeping a majority in the house rests on Tea Party candidates who are less electable than main stream Republicans they ousted.

    My wife and I are waiting for our ballots to arrive. We will vote mostly Republican.

  525. James: He couldn’t avoid knowing since she posted about it here. He’s choosing to disregard it. It would be very nice if you could ask him when you post next to kindly take advantage of it.

    Again, do not take this as a lack of empathy for your family situation. However, I believe you’ve seen a number of people urge you to take it elsewhere. I think you can assume Pfesser is fully aware of both the requests and the link. So I question why he would not be willing to accomodate those requests.

  526. Thankyou for your empathy Donna. I waited for the right moments to feed to the family what the Pfessor wrote and what other information I had learned. I built him into an authority on the subject, and it helped the family. Its reaching a new phase beyond the mddical crisis, so I probably won’t have to ask about medical problems.

    I like the Pfessor. He didn’t have to give me the time of day. It is possible he doesn’t know about the site delurkergurl made or the link.

    Jean mentioned studies about victimization. Its true, but some victims become victimizers. My wife has seen it at school over the years.

    I’ve been the only white in black and Indian neighborhoods too, and no one has ever bothered me except to stare.

  527. Yes Mother Amerlia you’re right, in this election cycle, it is important to remember, no vote or a Independent vote IS a vote for a Republican.

  528. I pledge to vote as well. The problem for me here in Maine is that I will not vote for the Republican candidate for governor, do not want to vote for the Democrat, like one of the Independants, but afraid if I do the R. will get in. Argggh.

  529. [...] Helen and Margaret’s Pledge to America « Margaret and Helen. [...]

  530. Has anyone seen this?

    http://margaretandhelen.blogspot.com/

  531. I pledge to remember that religious freedoms apply to all religions including the lack of a religion. And I pledge to remember that no matter how much I believe in my religion, I will remember that my neighbor believes in his religion just as much. And finally, I pledge that if I believe in my religion too much I will keep it to myself.

  532. I learned a long time ago that it’s impossible to argue with an idiot, so I’m not even going to try. My comments are clear. Yours speak for themselves. People who can read and not just write will figure out which of us makes sense and which of us doesn’t. ‘Nuff said!

  533. just cause you say you’re humble don’t make it so (it pretty much confirms that you aren’t). and by the way, your post made no sense whatsoever.
    and also with you.

  534. Well the first of the nutjobs had to step right in, didn’t he?! Your shit isn’t holy, chris f. It truly isn’t. It just stinks. Peace to you just the same. I hope you get that stink out of your pants and soon, babycakes.

  535. holy shit! you people are completely delusional. at first it was hilarious, but now it’s just creepy. please stop. seek help.

    coming from an agnostic, you people are worse than cult crazy christians. the only difference is your sense of purpose and self-worth is put on the shoulders of corrupt politicians, some of the worst people on the planet. no wonder youre all insane! oh, and since you’re so considerate, please consider that normal people all around you have to deal with your inflated egos.. please go back to the caves from whence you came.

    wooooo! cheers and rejoicing! sara palin would be the anti-christ if such a being existed! um, lets see.. I am the most tolerant and understanding and bestest person ever! unless you disagree with me.. and then i hate you you hateful hatemonger!!! i love myself cause i am the greatest not like these people that vote for republicans who like to club infants’ brains out. government is awesome and works great! uh, go jump off a bridge you crazy loons

  536. I pledge to vote on November 2nd. I pledge to vote a straight Democratic Party ticket because I know the Repugnicants will only take us back once again to their failed but self-serving policies of yore.

    To all you hateful spammers out there, yeah you know who you are, let me just say this: Living well is my best revenge on you. Hate me if you want, but I am fortunate to live in the USA. I am glad to pay my taxes, and I hope my tax rate goes up soon. My house is paid for in full since the day I bought the land and built my house upon it. My new car which I buy every four years is paid for with cash each and every time. I have no debts. My investments have grown steadily year after year. My disposable income meets my needs and pays for all my dreams and wishes too. Oh yeah, and I am as gay as a goose.

    Now I don’t say all this to brag, but I do say it to make my point. I have worked hard for over three decades, and I was lucky enough to make all the right choices along the way. I couldn’t have done this anywhere else on the planet, at least not to the degree to which I have done it right here in the good ol’ USA. I hope, pray and vote for the day when true democracy returns to this once-great nation of ours and for a time when the richest among us will once again pay income taxe rates in the range of 50 to 90 percent. We don’t need all that extra cash, but our government sure does. Our government is of the people, by the people and for the people, and the people today are suffering because the greed of the richest few has sucked our economy dry.

    And just so you know it, I have to tell you that Jesus isn’t going to return and take you away from the filth of your own depravity, leaving the rest of us behind to rot in hell. Rush Limbaugh isn’t going to bail our nation out of debt either. All you Believers in the power of Jesus in a tea bag can dream all you want while in your state of belligerent ignorance. It won’t make a damned bit of difference. Go ahead and own your hatred and your bigotry while you wipe your butts with the roughest paper this economy can dole out to you and your little ones. You only bring misery upon yourselves when you give your votes to the conservative politicians. Right wing politicians pander to your misanthropic teabaggy notions in order to line their own pockets with your hard-earned money. That’s the truth of the matter in a Breitbart nutsack, and don’t you ever forget it!

    So I will vote, yes indeed, on November 2nd. I will vote for higher taxes on the rich because I know damned well that cutting taxes won’t create jobs. Taxes have been steadily cut since Eisenhower was president and you can see what a lot of good that has done for the economy. I will vote for freedom of religion and freedom from religion. I will vote for equality for EVERYONE which includes not only Atheists, Muslims, Christians, Caucasians, Asians, Native Americans, African Americans, Gays, Heterosexuals, Lesbians, Transgendered persons, Democrats, Republicans and Tea Party members but also jerks like the hateful spammers who come around and spew their filth every frickin’ chance they get. I guess I’m just being American when I vote for your rights as well as my own.

  537. Loud cheers and great rejoicing!

  538. You ladies are awesome. It made my day finding your blog! Keep on rockin in the free world!

  539. bill–”You can’t have this country. It’s ours.”

    Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-…..ha-ha-ha-ha-…ha-ha-…..ha-

  540. Always love your posts…..after the first few comments, I can’t abide the crazy dialogue going on….just saying!

  541. Hi Congenial Gang,

    This is my one-woman campaign to hopefully spread the word about forging ahead in our country instead of turning the clock back to the ‘Good Ole Days’ as the conservative thinkers would love to do.

    This is not from a history book but from within my lifetime. In 1950 at the tender age of 21, I embarked on my grand adventure, all grown up and going out to take on the world! Except for some waitress and clerical jobs I had in summers during college, this was my first real job. I took off for a major southern city in a DC-3 Goonie Bird. I didn’t know a soul there. My employer had put me up in a hotel for one night when I first arrived and had given me the name and phone number of a place where I could rent a room in a private home with kitchen privileges.

    The next morning I took a cab w-a-y, w-a-y out to the suburbs with my luggage in tow. The cab fare took a serious bit out of my limited cache of cash. My new landlady turned out to be a lovely widow in a big two-story brick house with white colonnades. She was very sweet and put a fragrant fresh magnolia blossom every day in my room from the trees in her yard. I had never seen such an exotic flower before! She directed me to where I could catch the bus on the nearby corner to take me into the city to work. It turned out to be well over an hour’s ride everyday. I was all set.

    That first morning I boarded the nearly deserted bus and absently took a seat near the back. The bus driver stopped the bus, turned around and demanded, “Are you a (derogatory racial slur)?” I stammered, “Uh, no.” He then said, “You git yourself up here where the white folks sit.” He did not start up the bus until I was properly seated. That was my first encounter with ‘Jim Crow’. The first of many, many more.

    I committed a number of social faux pas before my co-workers and my landlady carefully explained what it was all about. My landlady was especially astonished that I didn’t know. It was second nature for her, having been born and bred there. She was not malicious about it. That was just the way it was and had always been. It turned out that she was one of many white older women, threadbare poor but proud. Which was why she had to rent out rooms in her large home to survive herself.

    In a relatively short time, I rounded up a roommate to share the expenses of a modest apartment; again w-a-y, w-a-y out in the suburbs. I don’t know what it‘s like in that southern city now, but at that time the entire city was encircled by the black section. Just riding through it on the bus was a heart-wrenching sight of poverty and blight. I could only imagine what it was like deeper into and beyond the bus route.

    My starting salary was $130.00 a month and never increased, so I was about as far down on the socio-economic totem pole as you could get, except for the black women. By accident of birth, their destiny was to silently clean the premises, empty the wastebaskets, and scour the toilets in the white bathrooms, which, BY IRONCLAD LAW, they were not permitted to use. The black people worked in the kitchens and served the food, but were not permitted BY LAW to sit down and eat in the same room in restaurants with white people. Most of all, they were not permitted BY LAW to make waves. There was plenty of “Yes, Sir!” and “Yes, Ma’am” in response to the not very kind and more often contemptuous demands put upon them. Thus the whole social structure was designed to keep the black people in subservient deference to white people in every single aspect of life. The so-called ‘Separate but Equal Doctrine’ was certainly anything but equal.

    I worked there for over two years before I resigned to commit matrimony. I couldn’t leave until my projects for the day were completed, so it was not uncommon for me to work late. Often I would be standing on a deserted street corner in the dark late at night, a young white woman waiting for the bus to take me on that long bus ride back to the suburbs. NO ONE EVER bothered me. But I never thought of myself as a victim.

    There have since been a number of studies about victimization. If a person is fearful and perceives himself/herself as a victim, that attitude is projected and make the person much more likely to be targeted. It can also make that person highly defensive and hostile when feeling s/he is under attack.

    I have had more experiences with racism and sexism to relate, but that’s for another time. We may have come a long way, but unquestionably, we still have a very long way to go to attain equality and basic human mutual dignity and respect. We have to keep at it!

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom.

    Auntie Jean

  542. M & H,
    As usual, you are right on target. And so good to hear from you Margaret, dear. Thank you for your timely words. If only the powers that be would listen to you both. This old world would be a lot better off. Love to you both…

  543. Grandma Katie: happy birthday!

  544. Jean – I’ve been here all the time-just haven’t seen anything I really wanted to bother to reply to -opps endign with an infinitive.

  545. Hi Congenial Gang,

    I for one have no compulsion to be the ‘Paterfamilia’ of this blog or for that matter, any other aspect of my life. It is not necessary for me to rebut or respond to each and every opinion I don’t agree with or otherwise. Nor is it necessary for me to ‘set people straight’ in the error of their political thinking. I enjoy reading about the areas that interest me the most and let the others fall by the wayside.

    I do feel, however, that what benefits society at large, ultimate benefits me too. What is detrimental to any segment of society can sooner or later come back and bite me in the ass. That’s why I am a progressive.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom.

    Auntie Jean

  546. Hi Congenial Gang and Grandma Katie,

    Happy Belated Birthday!!! I’m afraid I missed it. I wish you many more – both of us.

    It is good to ‘see’you. Don’t be a stranger.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom.

    Auntie Jean

  547. TERRIFIC POSTS MARGARET AND HELEN – Way2go!

    Helen and Margaret 2012!!!

  548. GODESSES!!!!!

  549. Colorado Blue
    10-9-10
    9:50 A.M.

    Colorado Blue…………………I vote for you……right on the money. We need more people like you and Helen.

  550. I Love me some Margaret and Helen!!!

    p.s. Donna is right…this pfesser person needs to get a clue! Move on…

  551. Well, James–it seems that you are willing to do the courteous thing and take your personal issues (with which I very much empathize) to the place where you could discuss them privately with Pfesser. However, he–for some reason–refuses to do that and insists on communicating with you about your personal situation here. Which, as I understand, puts you in a difficult situation because you are concerned about your family. In other words, Pfesser–who claims to want to be helpful and constructive–is the one who keeps you doing what you appear to agree is imposing on others. Wonder why he insists on doing so, at the expense of others.

  552. M&H – I love the way you speak your mind and can’t find anything that I don’t agree with – gou go girls and I hope you live and keep posting until you are well past 100. Thenl I get to the comments section. Most are in agreement, but then there is Tex and Bill. I have to laugh at Bill -hahahahahahahah. Mr. Bill – OhNo! You can’t have it both ways. You right-wing nutjobs keep saying out of the right side of your mouth that Dems/liberals are trashy, low income, preying off the public trough, welfare recipients, and other over-generalized statements lumping everyone in the same boat. Then out of the left side of your mouth, you call Dems/libs elitists, over-educated, wealthy people too selfish to care about the little guy. You can’t have it both ways. So, which is it? Personally, all of you that agreed with a war started on lies that has killed thousands of people all over the middle east, that is a soul with a black heart. To come on here where everyone is happy and inagreement and spew your own kind of venom is unconscionable Go play in someone else’s sand box!

  553. Thank you! My heroes made my day. Keep giving them hell.

    I can see how much it hurts them because they cant help themselves from trolling M&H YEEEHAW!

    Love ya!

  554. I always treasure the moment when I see a new post on here. You ladies are so freaking awesome! And you always hit the nail right on the head. So many Americans are unable to connect the dots and see what a Republican government does to us these days. Keep up the good work at showing that the emperor has no clothes. Your friend in Kansas. Don

  555. I thought that the Republicans saw themselves as belonging to the upper echelons of society?? I wasn’t aware that people with so called ‘class’ spoke with such venom as per Bill here! Words such as black souls! Trashy! With the spewing of that sort of vocabulary someone needs to look in the mirror.

  556. And along comes the bill. Always a downer moment. He pledges to be a wedge for the rest of his life. His rant is wrongly directed here when it rather should be aimed at the corporations that became “the government” for the past 40 years plus. The ones that have much greater representation than we, the people, do. Yes, many are black-souled. Many aren’t even Americans. We have all paid for the excesses and abuses of capitalism and all who cling to it. Ask a Native American.

    This is why we vote folks. He thinks he and his herd own a country. Well if they’re the owners they sure trashed the hell out of it. Like a bunch of goats – grazers chewing everything in sight and pissing in the rivers and lakes. The harder you squeeze that sand in your hand, the less you hold.

  557. Margaret and Helen?
    Who the hell are you and where have you two been all my life? I’m in love with two 80 plus year old women!

  558. Colorado Blue, right on!

  559. I pledge to stand against you and everyone like you for the rest of my life. You are destroying this country and thats where the disdain, not hate, comes from. Talk about hypocrites! You black souled people have used the government to further your agendas for 40 years and now we’re sick of your trashy living. You can’t have this country. It’s ours.

  560. Great post, M&H!

    Common sense, James, common sense.
    THe blog is called Margaret and Helen not James and Pfesser.

  561. Be sure to Vote! Or else…

    Everyone Loses!

  562. [...] Helen and Margaret’s Pledge to America « Margaret and Helen. [...]

  563. Rock on, Margaret and Helen! When are you two going to run for Congress?

  564. Sarah M. I am not obligated to acknowledge any of the “hosts” posts. If I criticized them it would be the same as tracking mud on their nice new living room rug. They are good writers and can be funny sometimes. They seem like nice people, and I hope they reach 100. That’s the best they get from me.

    My life has been charmed. It just has challenges some times, as even yours probably does. While this one doesn’t directly affect me, it hurts to see people I love suffer so.

  565. Go Helen Go Margaret Go Helen Go Margaret!!!!! :-)

  566. You are right, Donna, and I didn’t plan to write anything until the Pfessor asked. I checked the site delurkergurl made this morning and found encouragement from someone who posts here, but not the Pfessor. The medical situation has improved, but in other ways, things are grim.

    Thanks for your prayers poolman.

    Yes, it is impolite, but I love my sister in law, and whatever bit of information that might help, takes presidence over everything.

    “Don’t read” is the best I can say, and I do apologize, but I don’t know what else to do. My experience has been with only two other sites. The Janeane Garafalo site was unique. When someone had a problem there, we all rallied together to help. I assumed all were the same, but they’re not.

  567. I LOVE MARGARET AND HELEN!

  568. Margaret and Helen rock!

    (james and Pfister not so much)

  569. James…just think you should at least acknowledge the new post by your HOSTS before launching into myriad horrids of your pathetic life. Just saying.

  570. Happy 70th John! We need your help today.

    US vs John Lennon

  571. That is nice of you, James. And it’s not an attack on me, per se. He attacks everyone.

    Now, with all due respect, while I am very sorry about your personal situation and hope things turn out, I do think that it would be very courteous and thoughtful IF Pfesser would join you in what is truly a private discussion and do so privately. I am sure that in your personal life you want to be polite to others–and that would be a very polite thing to do. I don’t believe the answer is “don’t read it” although it is what you two are forcing people to do. Kind of reminds me of someone smoking in front of someone who doesn’t and saying “well, move.”

  572. Donna, I don’t understand why Tex attacked you. You don’t hog the site, and what he wrote about you was just plain wrong.

    You don’t need me to defend you, but I planned to do it anyway until I got side tracked with family discussion.

  573. Excuse the typos. Right hand not behaving well past few days.

  574. AFtER thinkin g htat this had turned into the “James and Pfessor” blog, then yesterday I foound the most delightful new post by Margaret and Helen.
    Reading their new post gives me hope for this country. so, get out there and vote in November!
    Does anyone recall Craig ever telling us what profession he is in or has
    been? and now Tex> yuk

  575. Donna I think PFesser was “speaking” about himself.

    PFesser, the trail is on M&H’s “Ask” page. AFA antiwar movements, there are plenty. But the government is thwarting most. Especially if they are affiliated with “truthers”. They have to be well organized and smart. Try these guys, for starters: http://rethinkafghanistan.com/

    James, I am glad your BIL is seeing some improvement and agree he must be surrounded by people pronouncing positive reinforcement. With much applied prayer, there are NO LIMITS to his recovery. The human body is very amazing.

    God bless everyone that comes through here today, I pray.

  576. delurker gurl was very kind to create a site where Pfessor and I could “visit” about our family situation, and I really appreciate it. However, the Pfessor isn’t “there.” He is “here.” I have already discussed how our dial up system delays e mails by days.

    If you don’t like what we write, don’t read it.

    Tanner and Sarah M., thank God I will never have to meet such cold, cruel people as you face to face. You give liberals or progressives a bad name. For shame!

    Sarah M., if you had my life, you would be whimpering in a dark corner.

    I am a guest at this blog. If I disagree with the hosts’ posts, the polite thing to do is to say nothing.

    PFessor, its interesting how determination can keep a person going. An instructor told us when I was in medic tech school that we should watch what we said. He told us when a person dies, hearing is the last sense to go.

    So, when my mother was still blue and green after she breathed her last, I told her how much we loved her and how we appreciated everything she did for us– that she was very brave and had put up a good fight. Just in case she could hear me.

  577. Donna -

    OK – I got it. I can do a command-f on the Mac for ‘Tex’.

    8 October.

    jesus. Now I remember why I never read any of his posts… Why bother even responding? You and I never agree, but at least it’s a good tussle. Why waste your time on stuff like that?

  578. Spot on……….

    Seriously Dems, you are not going to vote cuz one of your issues has not been handled? A no vote is a vote for the Baggers. You would rather go back to the Bush years when you almost lost everything? Do you know how long it took the Republicans to create this mess?? 30 years. It will not take 3 seconds to fix everything. Do you remember that Baby Bush was handed a budget surplus and he spent that and added 7 trillion to the deficit with most coming from that useless Iraq war. Do you know that the Bagger Repubs want the taxes for big business to be 0% and they want huge tax credits given to every business who keeps their manufcturing off shore, like in Communist China……no more taxes does not mean for you: middle class people who listen to the fools Limbaugh and FAUX news. They want everything you have to disappear. It is all about the “haves” ………not you. These people are paid by the wealthy business owners to TELL YOU how you should think.

    And who in their right mind would begrudge affordable healthcare to it’s citizens. This is not the United states of me, of rich white dudes……….that is exactly what the Bagger Repubs believe. Seriously, do you want you and your families and friends to pay exhorbitant health insurance rates just because the Beck-a-Bach-ma-Lim-ba-palinistas are paid by the health insurance companies to tell you what you should think? When is it that you will begin to think for yourselves?

    OMG…a 3% tax increase for people netting ( taking home after taxes) 250,000 a year. Really, they are whining? That is 250.00 more a year which is 20.83 a month…..pretty sure if you can afford nannies, million dollar homes, fancy cars and a latte every damn hour you can afford 3% a year increase. Don’t worry, you people making 249,999 are safe !!!!

    Helen is absolutely right……..the Bagger Repubs LOVE government and the Constitution when they can use it against things they hate.

    Wake up people……read your history. Every Republican president has added trillions to the deficit through wars, tax breaks for only the wealthy ( Reagan raised taxes on the middle class 19 times) and now they are screaming about tax breaks for the middle class, spending money to benefit the middle class and to help stimulate the economy. They have voted NO on every bill that would help to bring our economy back. Their behavior is unprecidented in the history of our country. They don’t say a word when money goes to their pals at the top………..use your brains, not your ears. Don’t let paid shills tell you what to think.

  579. [...] Helen and Margaret’s Pledge to America [...]

  580. Donna -

    My apologies. I didn’t realize you were discussing “Tex.” I guess I should have been more clear about “newcomer.” I did not mean him.

    What I have read of his posts I find pretty displeasing, and I have skimmed over most of them after that. He seems to arouse quite a rage reaction, but I haven’t found an indication of well thought-out positions on his part and really haven’t paid much attention to the posts. Sorry.

    I’ll be glad to look at the first post. How do I find it? Thanks.

  581. “Cites, please.”

    Why bring that stuff here?

    http://www.google.com

    You’re welcome.

  582. I’ll give you two examples and leave the rest to you. First, google “Tex Taylor” and “infection.” You will go to one person who did ban him and a link to some more about him. Then go to rutherford.l.wordpress.com–or you can simply google “Tex Taylor” and “rutherford.”

    However, I would be interested in your thoughts as to his first post here–the one to which I directed your attention. Do you believe that is appropriate? It is only slightly different in degree from Craig’s first post.

  583. Donna -

    “Now, consider doing as I suggested (since you offered this opinion) and google the newcomer and “blog.” And you will see that this paragon of fairness goes from blog to blog, making the most offensive, vicious attacks on people. Lots of attacks on their personal appearance (as if that is of any relevance at all). Lots of claims that anyone who does not share his viewpoints is stupid, “moronic,” brain damaged, or doomed. Occasionally going beyond even that to threats. And you will see that there is at least one blog from which he has been banned and several others where he has been asked repeatedly to do precisely what Pfesser suggests he is doing here–talk issues and not attack people. ”

    Cites, please.

  584. Time to get a life James and Pfesser.

  585. James -

    My mentor in residency told me a similar tale of HIS mentor, who had been burned horribly and overheard the ICU staff discussing whether he would live out the night or die the next day. He looked at the clock on the wall and said, “I will live another minute,” and watched the second hand go ’round. Then another, then another.

    He kept doing this and through sheer force of will recovered completely, becoming famous – at least in doctor circles LOL. His student, my mentor, also became famous – and rich, recently selling his medical appliance company for a high 9-figure amount. That is not a typo. Nine.

    I had a similar experience. When I was a third-year med student, a classmate’s wife developed multiple pulmonary emboli and was in our own ICU. We were all worried sick; I tried to visit her every day.

    I had assumed she was unconscious, and one day I asked the ICU nurse, “Do you think she is going to make it?”

    “She can HEAR YOU!” came the response. jesus, I could have crawled through the floor.

    The young lady eventually died, but that two minutes taught me a lesson I have benefited from many, many times. I still remember that day, and no matter where I am, I am SO careful about any loose talk.

  586. Yes!!!! A new post by my favorite Ladies!!!!
    Rock on, girls!!!!

    (have to agree with “Tanner”. J & P are just being rude at this point. Get your own blog or maybe “call” each other?!?!?)
    :-)

  587. Hey James and Pfesser….How about giving kudos to Margaret and Helen for their newest post BEFORE going on with your private conversations that seem to go ON AND ON AND ON!!!!

    Exchange emails!!!!!!

  588. I call bullshit. Go to Ask M & H, 9/27/10. That is the first post of the “newcomer” that Pfesser opines is of the view “treat me fairly and I will do likewise.” And it goes downhill from there.

    Now, consider doing as I suggested (since you offered this opinion) and google the newcomer and “blog.” And you will see that this paragon of fairness goes from blog to blog, making the most offensive, vicious attacks on people. Lots of attacks on their personal appearance (as if that is of any relevance at all). Lots of claims that anyone who does not share his viewpoints is stupid, “moronic,” brain damaged, or doomed. Occasionally going beyond even that to threats. And you will see that there is at least one blog from which he has been banned and several others where he has been asked repeatedly to do precisely what Pfesser suggests he is doing here–talk issues and not attack people.

    Actually, I had wondered whether you–who feels so free to criticize others–might actually respond to the “newcomer” and point out how inappropriate his comments are. Nope. It’s just one more opportunity for you to preach.

    As for James and Craig, James appears to have settled down. Previously, his posts were lots of “I told you so’s” and I believe he would concede that. At this point, he seems to be trying to be courteous and, regardless of the difference in my viewpoint and his on a number of issues, I have no problem with him (other than that I do think he might want to take advantage of the kind gesture which would allow him to communicate privately with you on a matter of personal interest.)

    Craig occasionally feigns courtesy and then reverts to his attention-seeking, “see how outrageous I can be” shtick. When he acts like a gentleman, people largely treat him as such or ignore him.

    And you were given the benefit of the doubt when you arrived, certainly by me. However, your posts are largely self-congratulatory.

    This “piling on” notion is nonsense. So is the claim that people go away, like chihuauhas who can’t face German Shepherds. The fact that there is an alternative blog which doesn’t permit people to dominate it is a welcome relief for those of us who enjoy going there.

  589. ladies: I love you!
    thanks for this; you always give a smart funny spin to the anger we feel.
    hopefully we can make this go viral and get people to vote.

  590. Thanks Pfessor. My sister in law gave the nurses a short list of relatives she didn’t want her husband to talk to, because she thought something like that would happen. The nurses didn’t follow her instructions.

    The surgeon is pretty sure my brother in law will walk again, but he didn’t say how well or when.

    As you write, no one can predict outcomes for individuals. Our doctor told me to settle my affairs in 1992, which I started to do, but I’m still here, fit and healthy.

    My sympathy to the staff and the family. You have to be dispassionate, but you all are also human.

    Thanks for the link. I noticed something like the logarithmetic pattern when I was an Air Force medic and when we cared for family members.

    I hope this interests you. My aunt told me of a friend was dying of pneumonia during the 1920′s, and she was unconscious. The doctor said she wouldn’t last the night. The family kept a vigil at her bedside and during that night, they discussed funeral arrangements. The crisis passed and she woke up by noon the next day.

    It was a long recovery, but months later, she told my aunt, she overheard the funeral conversation and it made her so mad she was determined to recover just to spite them.

  591. James -

    His sis needs to cool her tool. She hasn’t the slightest notion what his future holds, and even if what she says is true, that is a very inappropriate comment to make to a man trying to recover. He needs less stress, not more.

    Barring a disaster, it’s a wait-and-see thing now. I would expect a slow recovery. Typically these recoveries follow a logarithmic pattern: rapid advances at first gradually giving way to a slower and slower pace approaching a final plateau.

    http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Logarithm-table

    Nobody knows exactly where that plateau will be, but he needs to be patient and his well-meaning sister needs to keep her thoughts on his prognosis to herself.

    god, speaking of disasters: we had a death at my hospital yesterday: a 51 year-old man post TURP. That should have been an easy recovery, but it looks like he had a massive pulmonary embolus. Those rotating air bags your BIL is getting on his legs are lifesavers.

  592. If anyone is interested in wonkish political details about LV , the dailykos has a great article.

    They also discuss the changing{?} face of the nation, busting the GOP talking point that we are a right leaning nation.

    A huge day for GOTV canvassing. If you have some time join the effort! Together we can!

  593. PFessor, thanks for asking. Yesterday, Creighton Medical Center abruptly sent my BIL to an acute rehab facility in Sioux City, and I don’t know why. My SIL talked with all of the staff, but she hasn’t had time to tell us what they said. He is making progress, but his skin still has a yellow cast and his mind occasionally lapses. One of his sisters, a nurse, told him he will never be able to manage his rock quarry or work on wind generators again, and he threw the phone across the room.

    I know some anti -war protesters. They stood on Omaha street corners with home -made signs almost every week. They lost interest after Obama was elected, though. I suspect it is happening in other places too. Its tragic, but I don’t think many people care unless the war hits them personally. It is just back ground noise.

    NBC ran a story of a veterans’ bicycle ride in California. One or two of them appeared to have nothing below the waist, and they reclined on three wheeled devices which they powered with their arms. Its amazing they are still alive, let alone participating in a long distance bicycle ride.

  594. Delurker -

    We don’t have to be enemies. I will give you my point of view and then listen to yours. If you like, we can correspond personally.

    To wit:

    I believe there are several posters here who have traditionally dominated the conversation, and it has always gone one way: toe the ultraliberal Democrat line; bash anybody who does not agree with you as knuckle-dragging neanderthals who are, because of their stupidity, being duped by the “right.” (By the way, you may have noticed that offends some people.)

    Several – primarily James and Craig – have been favorite targets, and the technique is to pile on when they post. This works just fine, and those two basically stop posting, along with any other like-minded individuals who don’t want to face such a shitstorm.

    Then someone arrives who won’t be bullied – who WILL be heard and when attacked, responds. Oh my, what a stress-inducer! This is really changing the atmosphere at M&H! What to do?

    As is typical of bullies, they try ganging up on the newcomer too, but it doesn’t work, so they run away to another venue, stopping by M&H’s to lob an occasional volley, after which they run away again to tell each other how smart and cunning they are – somewhere safe, of course – like the Chihuahua barking at the Shepherd from behind a strong fence. Thus the current status.

    I suspect I may know the newcomer’s thoughts: “Treat me fairly and I’ll do the same. Argue in a tough manner, concede points well-made, and I will too. Be honest.” I think if you go back, with a few notable exceptions, you will find that his posts are not personal unless he is attacked, and then he tends to knock you on your ass. My best guess is that won’t change. If you can live with that and leave the personal stuff at home – by the way, it’s called “mutual respect” – then we can be friends. Your call.

    The ball is in your court.

  595. James -

    What is the latest word from your brother-in-law? I’ve been a bit tied up; my son decided to throw an Oktoberfest for his school mates and we’ve been scurrying about and I haven’t had the time to communicate.

    Poolman -

    The CFO of our hospital just got word that his son-in-law was blown up by an IED in Afghanistan. Basically did a right hindquarter amputation, taking the right leg, rectum, all the right ilium, exposing the coccyx. Lost the left leg AK. That medic must have been some kind of guy or gal. If those Afghans are trying to demoralize us, it’s working. Do you know of any organized group against Afghanistan/Iraq? (reminds me of the bad old days of the early ‘seventies!) If so, I’m in.

  596. Margret and Helen, you are the best!

    Tex and Tiskit, well……

  597. Tex and Tiskit: by the way, your vehement posting has a name-cyberbullying. Under certain circumstances it is illegal and punishable. On the internet it is very hard to hide. “Civility” should be your guide word, not “Anonymous (chose your own alliterative word).”

  598. Texisdaydreamin’ :razz:

    A Tiskit, a tasket
    a green and yellow basket case.
    Go ahead and read Matt chap 7… start with verse 1 and listen to Jesus.

  599. Dear Helen and Margaret,

    Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Every time you come back with a new post, you top yourselves. Helen, your summary of what’s wrong with the ‘right’ is so on the mark! You are always clear and succinct with a smile, a chuckle and a laugh out loud. You do cheer us on to get out there and fix this gawd awful mess with our votes.

    Margaret, it is so good to ‘hear’ from you again. I heartily concur! Pledge is a beautiful promise. But Endust does the dirty work and gets the job done.

    Aloha! :-) Namaste. Shalom.

    Jean

  600. I agree with you totally! We should never have started those stupid wars. They haven’t caught Osama, anyway. Such a waste of money and lives.

  601. Margaret and Helen, thanks for a great post! Your common sense always blows me away.

    And Tiskit, Jesus had common sense.

    Dawn, agree, where is common sense when people want somebody with a magic wand to turn things around in 18 months? President Barack Obama sure did not strike me as sporting a magic wand. Patience is not our forte in this country is it? I do understand when you are out of a job, it is hard to be patient to wait for things to turn around. But handing the government to people who only think about corporations’ bottom line is not the way to do it.

    Let us all vote and hope common sense prevails!

  602. Tex, Tex, Tex. And Tiskit, too. Yes, we’ll pray for your soul. All you have to do is ask.

  603. When Jesus comes back he will leave and your followers behind to rot in hell.

    Praise Jesus.

  604. Funny as hell!
    :-))

  605. You know how supposedly everything’s big in Texas? Well, “Tex” does have a few big things, but not where he wishes they were. A big mouth and a lifetime subscription to limbaugh.com don’t compensate for the considerable shortage in the manhood department, and berating a couple of wonderful ladies doesn’t make you a man either. Poor baby.

    Margaret and Helen, long may you wave.

  606. Love you Ladies!!

  607. Remarkable! Y’all are awesome. Thanks for writing.

  608. Helen, you and Margaret are STARS! Absolutely brilliant and great summation. Love your thinking and clarity.

  609. You are so great! Thanks.

  610. I knew he was a comic strip character from the get-go. Back to important stuff…..

    Love the post; it’s right on. Here in MN, we have a plethora of candidates who earnestly pledge to make sure Big Business get Big Tax Cuts and nobody else gets nothin’. Privatize it all. Sink or swim, buddy. If the tadpoles have the bad luck to get born into the wrong families, drown them, too. And too many people may vote for these guys, believing that ‘Well, they don’t mean me”.

    Yep, they do. The new talking point is “Maybe most people shouldn’t own their own home. Maybe most people’s kids shouldn’t go to college”. Hasn’t anybody noticed, this is analogous to saying “Maybe we shouldn’t have a middle class.”? This is the closest they have come to actually admitting it, and nobody’s calling them on it!

    How’s that hate, fear and hopelessness working out for ya’?

  611. Helen:

    I feel sorry for people that have to say some of the words used in your remarks to Margaret. If you truly are the image you put your self to me. It sure didn’t inpress me. Yes I to Plege allegance to the flag. Also in God we trust. but calling people the B word, and A– etc. Is the good faith??
    Be blessed Helen. You’re in my prays.

  612. I donno Norbrook, I enjoyed your blog immensely.

  613. Love love love this post M&H! Thank you!

    It’s ok Barbara most people forget he was born a yank. Probably because he never mentions it. Ivy League yankee’s don’t bode well with his base. ;-)

  614. Thank God no one has picked up on my massive faux pas! So let me say before anyone slates me how sorry I am to have connected GWB to Texans. Because he lives in Texas maybe?

  615. Just lovely, and as usual, funny as all get-out! Everytime I think I’m doing well as a blogger, you two show me that I’m not even in the ball park, let alone the same league. I can accept that.

  616. however…

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/us/02fight.html?_r=1

    all I can say is JMJ…OY!

  617. namaste everyone…

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101007/ap_on_re/us_rel_southern_baptists_yoga

  618. Thanks, Ladies, for making my day. Truth into the nets. A winner, for sure.

  619. If the Democrats were any better, I might agree…. Remember most of the things blamed on Bush, were Clinton’s to begin with, Bush just rode his coat tails…… NAFTA is a great example.

  620. Thank you ladies! You make this world a nicer place to be. We all love you!

    Tex, go play in the traffic.

  621. [...] http://margaretandhelen.wordpress.com/2010/10/08/helens-pledge-to-margaret/ [...]

  622. Great post – oh how I wish I was American so that I could vote. But reading this brilliant post will have to suffice.

    Bravo embarrassed Alaskan – it’s not your fault! Just like it’s not the fault of Texans that GWB happens to be one of them!

    Tex? Tex? Who the hell is Tex apart from Ritter!

  623. You’re a national treasure. Thank you!

  624. You two are a HOOT!

  625. You know this is a great post by how fast the crazies come aboard.

    Great post, Ladies!

  626. Donna, :neutral:

    Is this the same Donna that dominates this board with her useless drivel morning, noon and night dredging on about some “loser” playing on the net all day? That’s parody, right? You’re the residing President of the Hen’s Club, burnt that life has dragged you down to this.

    I can literally hear your squirrel chatter from here. Turn on your spell checker.

    Now, I googled wondering what the hell you were talking about, because to the best of my knowledge I don’t recall being banned anywhere. Threatened, yes. You lied buttercup. I found out I’m a football player, dead, and a comic strip character, though.

    Better make a another “huge” donation to the DNC from your “substantial” holdings. From the polling, it looks like it wasn’t enough last time you threatened me, and Hussein and his hideous wife need even more of your money to right the ship. :wink:

  627. Say it ain’t so. Rick Sanchez is headed to Faux News? Wonder that’s expected to do for Mr. Murdoch’s pocketbook. Hmm, yeah, wonder. That’s still not going to work for them though. I’ll bet one of Coulter’s big feet on it.

  628. Another home run!

  629. Margaret & Helen, thank you both for showing your sanity so clearly.

    Let’s get out there and vote for the person we think is best for the job instead of sticking for platforms and personalities.

  630. Helen- I love everything you write! This one you hit out of the ballpark. I’ve forwarded it to all I know and I think I’ll forward it to the White House too! Helen you are the perfect antidote to Sarah Paylin (if it doesn’t pay she won’t do it!) The entire country needs to read your blog. Common sense wins out every time. (Ignore those like “Tex”. He doesn’t have any good sense as anyone can tell reading his post. Another right wing moron.)

  631. Wonderful post ladies.

  632. TAG TEAM!!! WOOT! Ladies, I co-sign your pledge(s). As always you nailed this through and through. Thank you.

  633. Rock on, Helen! Not only should you attend the “Rally to Restore Sanity,” you should be the keynote speaker!

  634. Tex is probably Todd Palin. I totally love you gals, Helen and Margaret, together. Thank you for the humor.

  635. Yes, I must agree that Endust is better than Pledge.

    I love your writings, ladies. Please keep up the good work! Here’s to your health and happiness!

  636. It’s not just overcompensating with the name, WakeUpAmerica. If you think that’s funny, the posts are downright hilarious. What a buffoon.

  637. “Tex”? Who the hell with any self-respect calls himself “Tex”? Sorry, but I couldn’t stop laughing long enough to pay attention to anything you wrote. I’m guessing there are some self-image issues and significant baggage with “Tex”. Really, what kind of sissy-pants name is that?

    GREAT post, Helen and Margaret! You always brighten my day.

  638. Hey, folks: Want to see something that’s hilarious? Google “Tex Taylor.” You will see that this is the proverbial person with no life. He literally does nothing but go from blog to blog harassing people, insulting them, getting banned, going to another one, saying contradictory things about his “life experiences,” etc. If you EVER want to experience a true loser, this is the way to do it. Makes the former Kathleen Wynne (remember her?) seem both smart and sane. Which takes some doing.

  639. [...] Helen has something to say, and you need to go read that! Nobody says it better than Helen and Margaret. [...]

  640. I pledge to come back here and piss on your pity party November 3rd. The day that future generations will call the Great Awakening, and progressivism was destroyed in its wake. When a great majority of America will finally call you on your tired lies, propaganda, and the dismal and epic performance of your feckless messiah called MaObama.

    The days of Bush and Palin Derangement Syndrome are quickly coming to an end with a painful antidote, and your case has been diagnosed as terminal. I’ll be here to put the final nail in your coffins, after we expose you to the light for grins. :twisted:

    Line up for B-12 shots nags! Line up for the inevitable ass kickings. You’re going to be needing them with the rest of the harpies and the boys that frequent here.

    That actually sent a tingle up my leg.

  641. Helen and Margaret, you are the best. Just wish you would have a TV show or a newspaper column so more people would get better informed about what is going on in this country. They would get common sense information served with a sense of humor. Keep up the good work ladies.

  642. Margaret lives!!!!!
    Great post Ladies!!!!!

  643. Great to hear from you both, Helen and Margaret! Delightful! This is one of your best posts ever.

    I call their plan “A Sledge(hammer) to America”.

  644. thanks for another blog entry! You’ve said it all! We love you here in San Diego county!

  645. @ Margaret and Helen… I adore you ladies… I hope I can be like you when (if??) I grow up!
    @ Embarrassed Alaskan… I’m with you, bro (or sis).. Why $arah (and McCain for that matter) thinks that her wining the AK gov’ship on the Anybody But Frank ticket qualifies her for anything is beyond me… Not only am I from Alaska currently, I am from Wyoming which unleashed the scourge of Dick Cheney on the world so color me doubly embarrassed!! Get out there and VOTE, everybody!!

  646. [...] Margaret and Helen are at it again. [...]

  647. Brilliant!
    You two need to attend Jon Stewart’s Rally to restore sanity on Oct. 30th in D.C.!

  648. Thank you for the breath of sanity and a laugh. You are both amazing!

  649. Margaret, you write so seldom. When you do it is short & to the truth!
    Thank you, Helen, for saying all I would want to say in such a fabulous way!
    As always I can’t wait until the next posting…& Let’s all vote on Nov. 2 & shock the pollsters.

  650. Hit the nail squarely on the head, once again. I love you both!

  651. Absolutely Brilliant!!!

  652. Brilliant.

  653. You are beyond wonderful.

    Please don’t stop speaking your mind (which you do so exquisitely and brilliantly).

    You are my idols.

  654. I am literally in tears with this one. Thank you both so much and @Donna I agree with you. McCains desparate gamble has had consequences that none of us on the sane side could has imagined!

  655. once again, dear ladies, you have hit the nail on the head!

  656. You’re my heroes, too.

    Embarrassed Alaskan: we don’t think it’s your fault. John McCain unleashed this mess onto the rest of us, I’m just sorry you’ve had to deal with it longer.

  657. Brilliant!! Thanks for the chuckle!

  658. You two Ladies are my HEROs!

  659. Well said, as always, ladies.

  660. ” At that point I will simply call her a bitch and let the stupid speak for itself”
    AAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAA!!!!!!

  661. Love you ladies!

  662. Thank you Helen. Thank you. I pledge to speak my mind as you do. I pledge as an Alaskan to never, ever, keep quiet about any other narcissistic moron we may let loose onto the country. To be fair, I worked hard to get a wonderful woman and completely qualified individual named Fran Ulmer to be our Governor. She lost to Frank Murkowski, who appointed his daughter Lisa to his Senate seat. That pissed off Mrs. Palin, who thought she deserved it, so she ran against him, the least popular governor EVER, and she won. Talk about a small pebble making a big ripple. We Alaskans owe the country an apology. Unfortunately, we have our fair share of crazies, and they have a Senate candidate named Joe who actually is showing well in the polls. My fellow Alaskans are beyond embarrassing me, now I’m scared. We many have to wait on the apology to see how badly this shakes out.

  663. Never tried Endust, Margaret. Thanks for the tip. :D

  664. You ladies belong on TV!

  665. Another ringer Ladies! I pledge to share you two with more folks!! Peace Ya’ll! :grin:

  666. make that “I’ll WILL expect the economy might take a little longer than 18 months to recover”

  667. OMG Helen and Margaret:

    I pledge to ALWAYS love you both for telling it just the way it really is and not give a damn if the TP’s and R’s don’t like it even a little bit.

    I pledge to ALWAYS read your posts even if they should arrive in my mailbox while I’m fast asleep dreaming of all the good things you both do for those of us who’re based in reality.

    I pledge to ALWAYS vote whether it’s a midterm or presidential election because I only want the Democrats running our country despite them not always having the backbone I prefer as I know they at least look out for the ‘greater good of our nation’ unlike the TP’s and R’s who only look out for their own good and screw the little people.

    You are absolutely the bomb [in the very best sense of the word]. Please don’t ever stop telling us exactly how you feel because it equates to the way the rest of us feel as well.

  668. Once again so right on. I’ll add a pledge that I’ll not expect that the economy might take a little longer than 18 months to turn around since it has been under assault for the last 8 years.

  669. ahhhh, I pledge allegiance to Helen and Margaret!!! For you two lovely ladies are the definition of logical humor..which it seems, we are in short supply of these days.

  670. Love it ! You say my feelings with such clarity!

  671. Love you girls.

  672. Thanks Helen and Margaret

    Love and best wishes to you both

  673. I love you both. Helen, I love your pledge. You are so right about all of it and I will endorse your pledge – especially the last part.

    Margaret, I love your pledge, too, because it reinforces what we SHOULD be looking at – the good of the country, not who is better at gamesmanship (and you’re right about Endust.)

    Keep it up, ladies.

  674. Wonderful! God bless you both!

  675. TEAM MARAGET & HELEN!!!! :-)

  676. VERY timely… you ladies always hit directly to the heart of the matter, especially with your discussion of Hatred.

    Margaret/Helen, 2012!

  677. THANK YOU!
    Love you Helen…and glad to hear from beloved Margaret again!

  678. You did it again!

    Bravo!

    Too bad ‘they’ don’t understand most of the big words you used -

    It is all about ‘them’

    US be damned -

    Keep up the great work!

  679. WooHOO!!!!!
    You two are the best!!!!
    Count me in on TEAM Margaret & Helen!!!!!!


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