Posted by: Helen Philpot | May 1, 2009

Gay Marriage. Really?

Margaret, I just don’t get it.  We’re in a global economic crisis, America ‘s fighting two wars, there’s genocide in Darfur , AIDS running rampant, and a pretty good shot that we could all be killed by bird flu or swine flu or some other animal flu in a year or two.  And yet, the conservatives out there want to talk about gay marriage with Miss California.  Silly me.  I assumed it would have been Miss Arkansas.

Really?

So the Republican party has another washed up beauty queen as its spokesperson. I guess we can all look forward to a Palin-Prejean ticket in 2012. Lord help us.   I mean it. Really.

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Responses

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  3. It will be a threesome with the old Anita Bryant joining Ms Calif and Gov. I can see Russia!

  4. UAW, I agree with you completely! Let’s start calling them civil unions, PLEASE! Especially when so much of this fuss is about having equal rights under the law. If the government has to be involved, they should be referring to these unions as civil unions, not marriage. Marriage is a personal matter, not a government matter. IMO

    I second the double standards comment. You want tolerance and acceptance? Then you better be prepared to dish it out yourselves. I don’t see this coming from liberals at all. Not at all. It’s all YOUR way or nothing. Your speeches about tolerance just makes you sound like a bunch of hypocrites because you have ZERO tolerance for anyone that doesn’t agree with you.

    Think about it. If you begin having a little respect for others’ beliefs, maybe just maybe, they’ll have respect for you? Isn’t that the peace and love and understanding you claim you strive for?

  5. UAW-

    Separate is never equal. You want us to use the term “civil union” instead of “marriage”, but “marriage” is the term used in our country. Change every marriage in the country to a civil union, and I’ll be happy with that, but I’m not settling for anything less than full equality.

  6. UWA
    …..personally as far as gay marriages go,why can’t they be called civil unions….if the same rights are granted by the state and the religious objection to the word “marriage” being used is removed where’s the problem then…doesn’t the GLTV bare part of the blame for demanding”marriages”…..

    As much as we (you and me) are opposing ends of the same stick, from time to time you amaze me with your common sense…..even if at other times you manage to hide your intelligence rather well…;-)

    So, a (ever so slight) bow from me to you on this comment!

  7. Jean, the only difference for who is right or wrong is scientific accuracy. Our professors drummed it into our heads. Assumptions without credible supporting evidence make bad history and bad science. Sometimes, they make bad policy.

    Many intersex people are suffering because of the assumption that babies and children are blank slates who can be taught to be anyone. Doctors altered their bodies to make them normal before the kids could share their preferences. In many cases, the doctors were wrong.

    I also believe theories that bullying also had survival value in the past have credence. So does caring for old people.

    Groupism permits sharing of resources as long as they are plentiful. Yes, leaders use our natural tendency toward bias to dehumanize outsiders as with the ridiculous freedom fries. They often work because they appeal to our groupist natures.

    An e friend uses the wolf pack theory of human society. He believes wolves and we behave alike. Considering human’s and dogs affinity for each other I think he is on to something.

    Our branch of the species has been around for over 60,000 to in some cases, 100,000 years. We have not had time to evolve away the murderous natures which helped us survive. Culture lets us zap each other in more peaceful ways, but the instincts remain.

    HonoluluSally, Congratulations to your son! Anyone who worked as hard as he did deserves to bask in his familys’ pride and praise.

    My wife who is a teacher hates much of No Child Left Behind, which Teddy Kennedy helped write. However, Miss California is not a product of the law or of the Bush years. Bush is not to blame for everything.

    GreytDogA, my wife and I did the same as you. My father was in a hospital, and he kept chocking on food and getting aspiration pneumonia. His mind was fine, but he was weak. Two doctors told me my dad was wearing out at the age of 95. He had lived a good life. They decided the best thing to do was to withhold food and water until he quietly expired.

    I replied it wouldn’t happen. I would sneak in a pistol and blow my father away. The doctors reconsidered. They installed a feeding tube. My father spent his days walking up and down the halls and chatting with the nurses to gain strength that would get him out of the hospital. He read, watched television, teased our son about his getting his first drivers license, listened to Rush Limbaugh and waited to get out of the hospital. He finally did and then worked to get out of the local hospital. At that time, I had to “pull the plug.” I think doctors helped him out of this world.

    UAW Tradesman, I agree about the double standards. Hostile people focused much of their attention on Mormons and evangelical Christians who campaigned for Prop 8. Most ignored the majority of blacks and Hispanics who voted with the Mormons, because it was not politically correct to condemn them.

    A black columnist did condemn his countrymen. He called them ignorant and disappointing only because they voted differently than he would have. If they had voted for gay marriage, they would have been been enlightened, though they would have been the same people regardless of how they voted. No one has condemned President Obama. I think he opposes legalized gay marriages and supports civil unions. At least he used to.

  8. Sheri…didn’t I say…

    “just to piss everyone off…
    didn’t California have a vote and gay marriage was banned…..sounds like a mandate to me….”

    and to your reply…

    “The majority of Californians did not vote to support Prop 8. The majority of voters did.”

    If the percentage of people voting was the same(or close) how can a vote for Obama be a mandate and against gay marriage not be…
    if people have read other posts of mine they know that the double standard applied to politics is what pisses me off….if people complain when a conservative does something why do they want to let it slide when a liberal does the same thing?????

    personally as far as gay marriages go,why can’t they be called civil unions….if the same rights are granted by the state and the religious objection to the word “marriage” being used is removed where’s the problem then…doesn’t the GLTV bare part of the blame for demanding”marriages”

  9. D.C. council votes to recognize gay marriages; Congress has final say

    By Seattle Times news services

    WASHINGTON — After an emotional debate, the Council of the District of Columbia on Tuesday overwhelmingly approved a bill that recognizes same-sex marriages performed in other states.

    The vote is considered the first step toward eventually allowing gay marriages to be performed in Washington. Congress, which has final say over the city’s laws, will get 30 days to review the bill assuming Democratic Mayor Adrian Fenty, a supporter, signs it.

    If Congress takes no action, the bill will become law automatically. President Obama and congressional leaders have not signaled where they stand on the D.C. bill. Obama generally supports civil unions but has said marriage is between a man and a woman.

    “The march toward equality is coming to this country, and you can either be a part of it or stand in the way,” said David Catania, one of two openly gay D.C. Council members.

    The D.C. Council vote was 12-to-1, with former Mayor Marion Barry casting the lone opposing vote. Barry, a longtime supporter of the gay community, called it an “agonizing and difficult decision” that he made after praying and consulting with his constituents and the religious community.

    Vermont, Connecticut, Massachusetts and Iowa already allow gay marriage and lawmakers in several other states are considering whether to do the same. New York recognizes gay marriages performed in other states.

    The Maine Legislature on Tuesday approved a bill that would make the state the fifth to allow gay marriage.

    The bill faces one more vote each in the House and Senate before it goes to Gov. John Baldacci. He is a Democrat and remains undecided.

    Maine would become only the second state to allow gay marriage through an act of a legislature.

    In D.C., gay-marriage supporters greeted the vote with applause, but they were outnumbered at city hall by outraged opponents.

    The Rev. Anthony Evans said he will work to unseat every D.C. Council member who voted for it.

    “They just kissed their political careers goodbye,” he said.

  10. James, thanks to the Schiavo debacle, I had my living will and final directives rewritten with clause that stated that no local, state, or federal body or representative thereof could supercede my individual rights and any such actions to intercede by said local, state, or federal body or representative would be viewed as an infringement of my First Amendment and would be prosecuted as such. I ran that past a couple of medical and constitutional lawyers one of whom asked if he could use it as a guide for others. When my father was dying I had to remind a couple of care providers that there were final directives in place and what they were suggesting was countermanding those directives. And yes, on the whole, we treat our pets more humanely at the end of life – but as one person told me, “They’re animals, we can always get another pet” Arrrgghhh.

  11. Oh Cheeses! Wrote a post that didn’t go through.
    Perhaps I used the Q —r word.

    My first post in synopsis…My Grandmother was a remarkable woman. She raised a son knowing he was gay in the 60’s. Loved him, and his friends with no reserve. Regardless of skin color, denomination, or origin. I grew up with these beautiful people in my life. Made mine and the way I raised my boys that much richer.

    My original point was that my Grandmother was a
    woman of much faith. This woman wore a mustard seed in a necklace, and her bible to a frail, but still opend her arms to all.
    No judgment, no incrimination. We need more like her.

    I share Werners view of religion. I love my religious friends…just don’t be so rigid.

  12. Dear Joe the Plumber,

    As a little girl I was held by many a man whom at
    the time I didn’t know was gay. I have been called princess, smart, beautiful, exotic, [ a plethora of self-esteem building adjectives ]. Oh, Damn! Grew up hetro-! I love my husband! What possibly could have gone wrong? Seems the “gays” failed! It didn’t rub off!

    Hope your children will learn the beauty of art,
    song, and theater in spite of your teachings.
    “Too many gays involved!. Wouldn’t want that to happen would we?

  13. Short and sweet post… well written Helen! I don’t understand why the world should be so hell bent on judging people. Although not a practising hindu, I pray just one thing whenever I pray. Loka samasta sukhino bhavanthu. Let the entire world be at peace. And I pray that now. :)

  14. My Grandmother always told me to run from Christians who had to explain what they were.
    “Actions speak louder than words”. Her nod to
    the scripture was a mustard seed worn around her neck, her worn bible was proof of her belief.

    [ I don't remember knowing my Uncle was "different ] Have learned that he had the conviction, and support to “come out”in the 60’s.
    In the South no less!

    My Grandmothers house was a cornucopia of race, creed, and colors. All called her Mama T. She offered a place of calm, comfort, peace, a
    home cooked meal, and most importantly…
    acceptance. Seems Mama T’s should be more prevalent.

    Dear, Joe the Plumber,

    I had no idea I was being exposed to “queers”.
    Strong, articulate men held me, fawned over me.
    Called me Princess, and Lil’ Gypsy Girl. I loved them all, and they only made my self esteem that much greater. You being the peon…please see to the clogged toilet…

  15. Jean, my favorite (only) son is getting his masters from Dartmouth, then going to Germany! Yikes. My rolling stone.

    Werner, as our plans get firmer, I’ll give you a holler. Maintenant, choo choo apre bon bon. Ha ha ha ha. This reminds me of how we would string together local words on the bus when I was a young kid – “Kamehameha wiki wiki lau lau poki malasadas holoholo” – and they made no sense whatsoever, but we sure impressed the tourists who thought we couldn’t speak English and that we were talking Hawaiian.

    UAW! Good to see that you are still full of piss and vinegar! Would suggest some of Dr. Schultz’s Intestinal Correctional Formula #1 to rid yourself of the crap…

    I feel sorry for the Miz California du jour. She is the product of 8 years of Bush’s No Child Left Behind and the dumbing down of America. The product of religion dominating humanity. It’s sad.

    Watched “W” this weekend on dvd. That was sad, too.

    Time to go watch some Jon Stewart to get some chuckles.

    Namaste, aloha, and bien nuit!

    Sally

  16. goddess bless you for your wit and wisdom…i just call ‘em all buttroys..a friend sent this post to me with the caption..another texan…guess it’s nice for the world to know we’re not all republican, evangelical right wing wing nuts..

  17. Thank Jean for your nice history. Have you written any of your story for the next generation? It is interesting how many dumb things we do when we are young and never seem to wear out. You write well. I was stationed at Ellsworth AFB from 1966 to 1968.

    I have been on the Isle de Orleans. My mother asked directions without French phonetics, and the man said “huh?”

    I like France too, but their airport crews left something to be desired. We landed at its various air ports in a single engined plane.

    Yes, organized religions can be hypocritical. It is why my wife usually attends church alone. One thing about Terry Shiavo is they put her through what we wouldn’t do to a sick dog or downed horse. If they were going to let her die, as I think they should have, they should have had the guts to kill her fast. All of that posturing over a starving body…

    Had I had the chance, I would have put a bullet in her head before the Congress and courts had a chance to stop me. It was the only merciful thing to do. Letting her die by inches was cruel.

    A man in Nebraska killed his suffering terminal wife while she was in the hospital. The court put him on probation.

    So far, school is quiet after the weekend. The bullied girl has not returned to school, and nothing is being done yet about the boy who was beat up at school. No one is talking but my wife and the principal yelled at her. Even though the boy is one of the hateful yellers, he doesn’t deserve to be assaulted either.

    I love being on our farm where I don’t have to see those people unless I want to.

  18. girldujour…I’d forgotten about that graphic. Thank you!

  19. Name the GOPosaur!

    Δ

  20. Here is a graphic that shows the consequences of Gay Marriage:

    http://girldujour.wordpress.com/2008/11/21/a-graphic-which-clearly-shows-the-consequences-of-gaysame-gender-marriages/

  21. Jean, I agree with your comment about the unwarranted rep of Paris and France. Since I spent a great deal of my childhood (eons ago) between Geneva, Amsterdam, and Cherbourg, I hold extremely fond memories of France, especially Normandy. And yes, Werner, I know that Ile de Orleans is closer to Quebec than to Montreal, but if anyone out there is interested in antiques, Ile de Orleans is the place to go. . . but then again, if you can’t get to Scotland, go to Nova Scotia or Newfoundland. Almost as good. . . almost.

    As for a minister or church being sued by the ACLU, so what? No outcry from the neocons regarding the IRS investigation of United Church of Christ while a blind eye is turned towards Warren’s Saddleback Church? Seems very hypocritical to me – but hypocrisy seems to be part and parcel of the American religious experience, doesn’t it? Do as I tell you do. . . Our good Bishop here in Orlando held a Mass of Reparation to ask God’s forgiveness because Notre Dame dared to invite Obama to speak. . .the Bishop and I have had a running argument for a couple of years now about his myopic view concerning the sanctity of life. . .seems to extend only to the unborn or to those in a vegetative state (Terry Schiavo), but anyone else – the Bishop sits quietly by at his pontificating pulpit while people lose their homes, their jobs, their lives. . . not even an asshat, just a gasbag.

  22. I meant to change “hundreds of thousands” to “millions”…it would be erroneous to say the religious right spent hundreds of millions. My humble mistake. They DID spend millions.

  23. “didn’t California have a vote and gay marriage was banned…..sounds like a mandate to me….”

    Soooooooooo — we should all get to vote on how others live now? Soooooo — l live in a largely Jewish neighborhood — so they should get to vote on whether I get to live here? Or we should get to vote on whether whites and blacks or reds or yellows or browns shoud get to intermarry or live in certain neighborhoods? Or people of different religions should get to intermarry?

    C’mon, UAW, some things are wrong even if the majority supports them.

    And who gets to marry whom, so long as it’s consenting adults who aren’t blood relatives within certain degrees, shouldn’t be by consensus.

  24. UAW,

    Clergy of many denominations refuse all the time to marry heterosexual couples for a variety of reasons and they do not get sued. Gay couples are pursuing CIVIL marriage, not the RELIGIOUS ceremony that is simply a public statement or celebration of CIVIL marriage.

    Yes, Prop 8 passed in CA, banning same-sex marriage…..after the religious right spent hundreds of millions of dollars advertising lies and fear-mongering, such as the lie that clergy of all denominations would be forced to perform same-sex weddings or lose their tax-exempt status. The religious and political right have always been masters at fear-mongering.

    For instance, supporters of Prop 8 repeatedly used children’s images in campaign videos (without permission) and repeatedly said that children as young as kindergarten would be taught in school to value same-sex marriage and would be taken on field trips to same-sex weddings — a blatant lie, of course.

    The majority of Californians did not vote to support Prop 8. The majority of voters did. It passed by a thin margin of 52% to 48%. It’s nothing less than foolish to view that as a compelling majority, especially since we know hundreds of churches violated tax laws and separation of church & state by campaigning during church services and turning out hundreds of thousands of one-issue voters who openly admit they would not have voted had Prop 8 not been on the ballot.

    The bigger lessons to learn from Prop 8 passing in CA are these:

    We’ve decided over and over again that we want a govt. that respects minority rights, not a govt. that gives unlimited power to the majority. Civil rights should never be put to popular vote. Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson said, “One’s right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.”

    100% of all adults eligible to vote should be voting 100% of the time (shame on the thousands who would have voted against Prop 8 but didn’t vote b/c they didn’t think it could possibly pass) Oh for mandated voting!

    Churches and religious organizations should absolutely lose their tax-exempt status for using church services to politic

    52% of voting Californians voting for discrimination does not make discrimination acceptable. Separate is never equal. (Haven’t we learned this one already?) Chief Justice Earl Warren said, “Separate but equal has no place in our country…it violates the 14th amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees all citizens equal protection of the laws.”

    Of course, UAW, you are intelligent enough to know all these things already…you’re simply trying to convince those who don’t think for themselves to continue following the “group.”

    An injustice to one is still an injustice to all.

  25. Miss California worries about her reputation being undermined.
    http://omg.yahoo.com/news/miss-california-racy-pics-trying-to-undermine-my-reputation/22131?nc

    Here’s a Prejean quote from that article:

    “If this whole experience has taught me anything,” she concluded, “it is our precious right to speak freely, and how we as Americans can never allow anyone or any group to intimidate or threaten us to keep silent.”

    Huh?

    (Here’s another quote: “Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking.” ~ The Tin Man)

  26. Hi gang,

    I said I would tell part of our experiences in the military. This was back in the Dark Ages, but from what I hear, not much has changed there in over 50 years.

    My husband had only these choices during the Korean Conflict Era – enlist or be drafted. He opted for ROTC in college. When he graduated and got his commission, he went into the Air Force.

    When we met, I was working in Houston, TX and he was going through training at Ellington AFB. We were married and sent to Shaw AFB in Sumter, SC for seven weeks further training. He was 24, I was 23. That’s where we encountered palmetto bugs for the first time. If we went out for the evening, when we came home and turned on the lights they would scurry every-which-a-way. Yuck!!! I spent seven weeks chasing and trying to get rid of those suckers. No luck.

    He had orders for Korea. While we were on 30-day leave, the truce was signed but his orders still said, “Korea”. We drove up to see his family in New Hampshire and then across country where he left me with my family in Northern Colorado.

    From there he went to Stead AFB in Reno, NV for ‘Survival’ training. That involved ‘E&E’ (‘Escape and Evasion’). They were trained on how to survive on grass, insects and a rattlesnake if they could catch one if they were captured when shot down. After the training they took them out in the desert and dumped them there – without their boots. The idea was to escape and evade being captured by the enemy.

    My husband and his co-pilot buddy made history there. His buddy – bootless- was never captured until the training session was over and they blew the whistle. My husband was captured and ‘interrogated’. Since he is fluent in French, he decided to throw away his dog-tags and pretend he was a civilian. He was ‘interrogated’ for a while and then sent out with a shovel to dig a hole in the desert. They ‘interrogated’ him again, he dug the hole some more, etc., but could never break him down from speaking only French. They even brought in a French professor from the Univ. of Reno to interpret. Of course my husband could hear the questions in English first and had time to formulate an answer by the time the professor spoke it in French.

    The upshot was, that his crew was pulled out of the squadron and send on ‘detached duty’ at the Naval Air Station in Alameda, CA. The rest of the squadron went on to Korea and were there as occupying personnel for a year.

    I thought he was in Korea. One night at midnight he called. He was in Denver and wanted me to come get him. He had been sent to Parks AFB in Oakland, CA to await new orders for duty in the States. All he had to do was check in once a day. His buddy practiced forging his signature for that check-in. My husband managed to finagle a ‘hop’ on an AF plane to Denver to get me, the car and all our worldly possessions. We drove all night, deadheading to Parks AFB. Essentially, he was AWOL.

    We spent five weeks there with nothing to do but check in once a day. We lived in the Officer’s Guest House, which consisted of a barrack, a bare room with the Ladies’ Room way down at the end of the corridor and the Men’s Room at the other. We had to have our meals at the Officer’s Club. We didn’t have much money. Second Lieutenants don’t make much. We read every Perry Mason book in the library.

    Since he was to be reassigned to SAC (Strategic Air Command) they had asked him where he would like to be stationed. He was from New England, so he said, in the Northeast, preferably Westover AFB in MA. OK. The new orders came in for March AFB in Riverside, CA, the farthest SOUTHWEST you can get! And after waiting for five weeks, the orders said we were supposed to be there YESTERDAY! Again, we, and our buddy drove all night to get there. We were learning the hard way that the military way is to do as you are told and keep your mouth shut.

    March AFB turned out to be a lovely duty station. It was then called the ‘Country Club’ of the AF. When we showed up there, the brass had decided to upgrade my husband’s crew from B-26’s to B-47’s. That involved another go round to Ellington AFB in Houston for ten weeks and Mather AFB in Sacramento, CA for another 10 weeks. But first…..how about 10 weeks at the Air War College in Maxwell AFB, Montgomery AL.

    In between the TDY (temporary duty) at all these bases, we had some leave coming so we drove like crazy to go see my family in Northern Colorado and his family in New Hampshire. We took a different route each time so saw almost every nook and cranny of the country. We made four complete round trips across country. If there were any attractions on the map within100 miles of our route, we went to see it, and then drove all night to make up the time. One memorable stop was at Carlsbad Caverns in New Mexico.

    At one time we went up to Quebec, across southern Canada and dropped back into the states at Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan. We then went to visit some friends at Ellsworth AFB in SD. As we were leaving heading south on a little two-way highway, we noticed a dark blob ahead. When we got there, it turned out to be a herd of wild (?) buffalo. We slowed down and stopped. Next thing we knew the whole herd was milling around and bumping into the car. They rocked the car! They are a pretty mangy looking bunch up close like that but they were harmless enough and in time moved on. So did we.

    You must remember this was before interstate highways, freeways, power steering and power brakes. Our car did have automatic shift though. At one time or another we stayed in just about every cheap ‘Motel 6’ in the country! One night we pulled into a very large motel in New Jersey and were able to get the last room they had. The parking lot was full of cars! We got up for an early start and found we were the lone care left. Hummm. We must have been the only married couple in the place!

    You have to be young and strong to keep up that kind of pace. And dumb. We were having a ball!!! The glamour of being a ‘fly boy’ and all the rah-rah hype that went with it. This was the up side. The down and grim side came later.

    Aloha!

    Jean

    P. S. I’ve got to get off the computer and get busy.

  27. Sally,

    I forgot to include: “Ou est- – ” “Where is”, pronounced, “Oo eh”.

    Aloha!

    Jean

  28. Hi gang, Whirledpeas, Sally, Greatdog, Werner, James, et al.

    Whirledpeas, I am so sorry to hear of Dom Deluise’s death. I loved him! What a multi-talented performer.

    Sally, thanks for your vote of confidence. I love you too! I think we can agree that we in Hawaii have our little problems here and there, but for the most part get along just fine; especially in light of the headlines from everywhere else.

    Where does your son go to school? My husband is from Northern New Hampshire. We have been to Quebec and all over Eastern Canada countless times. You will absolutely love it!!!

    See if you can come up with a few French words and phrases. I’ll help you. (One essential for women is, “Où est la toilette, s’il vous plaît?” (Where is the ladie’s room, please?) One rule of thumb is that the WRITTEN French is easier pronounced if you just ignore the last part of some of the words! (As in s’il voo play.) But smiles, gestures and a general friendly openness go a long way there, as in anywhere else in the world.

    Greatdog and Werner, absolutely, if you want the French experience go to Quebec if you can’t go to France. Paris has gotten the unwarranted reputation of being snobbish and stand-offish.
    Not true! As Werner says, at lease try to speak the language and the people will fall all over themselves to be kind and helpful. Remember the old BS, about ‘French Fries’ and ‘Freedom Fries’? And ‘Either you are with us or against us!’. That was ‘leadership’ propaganda trying to TEACH and promote bias and prejudice to people who had no direct experience with the French. Over the long haul, it didn’t work too well did it.

    James, I can’t see what difference it makes who is right or who is wrong. It’s just a DIFFERENCE in point of view. I think we can agree that groupism in adults evolves out of mutual interdependency for the limited resources for survival of the group as a whole. That can lead to conflict. Humans are after all social animals.

    Your story about the bullying kids after the wedding illustrates just that. Teenagers, with raging hormones and curiosity but no experience with sex are notorious for mouthing off about it -r worse. As a little maturity sets in and with responsible sex education there would be no need for such exhibitions.

    In the meantime however, the bullying has to be stopped. The proper authorities have to make sure that such behavior is totally unacceptable and not to be tolerated. If there are negative consequences for such behavior, even the bullies might think twice before continuing.

    As resources become more plentiful, people drift toward others with common interests. But that doesn’t mean that groupism is naturally hostile toward other groups, just different.

    And as the French say, “Vive la différence!!!!”

    Aloha!

    Jean

  29. just to piss everyone off…
    didn’t California have a vote and gay marriage was banned…..sounds like a mandate to me….

    maybe the tea-baggers took lessons from the GLTV’s

    there’s a lot of libs on this site that like to point fingers…..just remember that when you point one…three point back…

    and yes James, I to wonder when the ACLU is going to start suing churches because the pastor doesn’t want to perform the (gay marriage)ceremony…..the hell with his rights

  30. Greytdog Δ, Imaginista Δ, Katrina in Ohio, Easier, Jean, and anyone else I may have missed…..thank you a MILLION times over for your understanding and support! Inclusive-minded people like you (& Helen & Margaret!) give me hope and energy! You are the reason I keep returning to this blog and the reason I read through every comment…too many golden nuggets not to search for them!

    James, I’m so glad you attended and supported the wedding of your friends. May the actions of the bullies not mar the joy and happiness your friends must feel over the legal recognition of their relationship! And may those same bullying actions spur us all on to even greater social activism.

    As always, I so enjoy reading all the regular posters…don’t always have time to join every conversation, but I enjoy reading them all and I always learn many fascinating new tidbits of knowledge!

    Missing JuneauJoe, Alaska Pi, troutay, ProudCommunityOrganizerWA & skyewriter, lately!

  31. Greytdog

    Ile de Orleans is about a 3 hoyurdrive from Montreal just outside of Quebec City, hope you not mistking our two favorite towns…?
    Anyway, they are both fun, but in Quebec City you REALLY need your french,

    And James finding a Cabby that doesn’t want money in Quebec, HTF did you manage that?

  32. Hi Sally
    before you come, send em an email. We need to meet! (For Shakespear, remeber: “Two beer, or not two beer….)

  33. I loved Dom DeLuise. He always made me laugh. “That man’s nuts!” – I forget what movie but it was with Burt Reynolds.

    Werner, thanks for the Montreal tips. Might be going up there in June for a couple of days. Will take along a French/English dictionary and fumble our way through. My son (graduating in June in NH) said I would love Montreal, especially since I’ve never been to France.

    Hawaii is indeed a melting pot, but we are also very much of the “Grouping” mentality by nationality and “born local”. We enjoy ethnic jokes that many newcomers think terrible, but it is all in fun, and the ones that laugh the loudest are the brunt of the jokes.

    “Haoles” (white folk) such as Jean are endearing to the “locals”, because she is a caring, open minded and gracious lady – and she loves Hawaii, so Hawaii loves back. I imagine you to look like Kristen Scott Thomas (the English Patient).

    Hawaii is not so great a place for newcomers that group everyone as “geeks” (why do the military low ranks do that?) or want to change Hawaii’s ways to their ways. Most New Yorkers will have a very hard time living here with our laid back and SLOW lifestyle, but some do stay, and they come here to raise their kids in a safer environment than NYC.

    Hawaii isn’t perfect, but it is a great place to live and escape to.

    How’s about we have a Margaret and Helen Convention here and we all wear our “personas” on our shirts?

  34. Scroll allert

    And onother one I really love:

    Richard Desjardins : Le Chant du Bum

    But even IF you speak French, for this one I recommend a translation into ….. French

    This one is ion Shoal, a real Quebecois dialect, spoken in the country side and the deeper paerts of the woods. This song became vamous with the little scene in the unemployment office where “Petit Richard” says: It’s not for the job I came, it’s for the money!

    The whol;e song is about what will happen to you if you can’t keep your big mouth shut!

    Want to Subscribe?
    Sign In or Sign Up now!
    Le Chant du Bum Paroles et musique de Richard Desjardins ************ Le Chant du Bum L’aut’ fois j’parlais avec mon bonhomme Y m’dit: “À c’t’ heure t’es t’un grand bum, Commence à êt’ temps q…
    Le Chant du Bum
    Paroles et musique de Richard Desjardins
    ************

    Le Chant du Bum

    L’aut’ fois j’parlais avec mon bonhomme
    Y m’dit: “À c’t’ heure t’es t’un grand bum,
    Commence à êt’ temps qu’ tu sacres le camp”
    J’i dit: “Pourquoi, ch’u ben icitte,
    J’me sens chez nous
    Pis j’peux pas m’passer du bazou”

    J’aurais dû, ben dû, don dû farmer ma grand’ yeule

    Ça fa que là, quessé que j’fas,
    Planté là su’ l’coin d’la rue,
    Tout nu comme un pou?
    J’ai dit: “J’vas faire mon homme,
    J’vas m’pogner une job, j’vas faire le tour,
    J’vas commencer par la pool room”
    Qui c’est qui r’soud? Ti-Lou Garou.
    Qui m’dit dans face:
    “T’en rappelles-tu qu’tu m’dois cent piasses?”
    “Ben laisse moé l’temps de l’oublier ;
    En attendant j’viens d’pardre ma game
    T’aurais-tu d’quoi pour la payer ?”

    J’aurais dû, ben dû, don dû farmer ma grand’ yeule.

    Ch’us barré tout partout,
    Ch’us cassé comme un clou,
    Toudoudou, je suis un voyou, voyez-vous.

    Un peu froissé dans mon honneur,
    Moé incompris total
    A ben fallu qu’j’me pile su’ l’cœur.
    J’ai pris ma décision finale,
    Pas d’taponnage pas d’têtage ,
    J’m’en vas drett’ au bien-être social .

    Une belle grand’ femme qui sent l’push push,
    Pis qui pousse pousse pousse un crayon jaune
    Me d’mande pourquoi que j’travaille pas.
    “Rien qu’à y penser madame, j’viens tanné;
    Y a quet’ chose en moé qui m’dit
    Que ch’us pas fait’ pour ça.”

    [Point de vue culture ,etc ,etc ...c'est de l'argent.]

    Deux, trois…
    J’aurais dû, ben dû, don dû farmer ma grand’ yeule,

    Ch’us barré tout partout, ch’us cassé comme un clou,
    Toudoudou, je suis un voyou, voyez-vous.

    Sans un sou, sans bazou, sans amis, sans abri,
    Pis l’hiver qui sévit,
    Le temps passe tranquillement;
    Me voilà rendu vagabond ; dans cette situation
    C’est l’amour ou ben la prison.

    Le juge m’a dit: “Vous n’avez rien commis,
    Je vous condamne conséquemment
    À cent piasses ou l’hiver en d’dans”
    “Merci beaucoup la seigneurie”
    En voilà un qui m’a compris,
    “Je pense que je vas prendre l’argent.”

    J’aurais dû, ben dû, don dû farmer ma grand’ yeule,

    Ch’us barré tout partout, ch’us cassé comme un clou,
    Toudoudou, je suis un voyou, voyez-vous.

    ************
    Et pour apprécier les subtilités du joual à Desjardins :

    un bum = un vaurien, un bon à rien
    tu sacres le camp = tu fiches le camp
    ch’u ben icitte = je suis bien ici
    le bazou = la bagnole
    ça fa que là = ce qui fait que là
    quessé que j’fas = qu’est-ce que je vais faire
    j’vas faire mon homme = je vais agir en adulte
    j’vas m’pogner une job = je vais me prendre un boulot
    la pool room = la salle de billard
    qui c’est qui r’soud ? = qui c’est qui surgit ?
    une piasse = une piastre = un dollar
    j’viens d’pardre ma game = je viens de perdre ma partie
    ch’u barré = je suis interdit
    cassé comme un clou = fauché comme les blés
    j’me pile su’ l’cœur = je piétine ma fierté
    pas d’taponnage = pas de pelotage
    pas d’têtage = pas de suçon
    j’m’en vas drette = je vais tout droit
    le bien-être social = les services d’aide sociale
    le push-push = le désodorisant
    j’viens tanné = je tombe d’épuisement
    l’hiver en d’dans = l’hiver en prison
    Category: News & Politics

    Tags: chanson Desjardins

  35. Do something for your French (actually, this is Quebecois, a “bit” different in the accent!)

    Mes Aïeux – Dégénération (English Subtitles)

    Enjoy

  36. Never read Werner’s posts before lunch time. I wish I could remember the names of the french restaurants in Montreal where we ate. Too long ago. Yes, I did learn to mumble enough French to be accepted. I did it by studying the hotel room service menu which was french/english. The embarrassing part is I had four years of French and have no ear but I can read it.
    I did love my trips to Montreal.

    Greytdog, David Brooks did make sense. Thanks for the link.

    Rather scary regarding the Onward Christian Soldiers but not a surprise and falls in line with James’ post on groupism.

  37. David Brooks, NYTimes conservative columnist, makes sense: http://tinyurl.com/cnc7h8

    Whirled, thanks for the heads up on the passing of Dom DeLuise.

    Werner, travel-dogs say that if you want to have a “French” experience but can’t afford Paris, head to Montreal. I like Ile de Orleans.

  38. Raji

    Montreal is very strange if it comes to language (That is for ALL visitors)

    IF you try with a few words of french (not that difficult) even the most hardened sepratist will be happy with the effort and pull out his however bad english, but blasting along just in english will only get you stares or ignored in most places.

    They also make a BIG difference if you only a tourist that can’t really be expected to learn french for just one trip (but north and east of Montreal you might run into trouble, there are places where “Anglais” is rarely spoken…) and a Quebece Anglophone that refuses to speak french for political reasons (Yes, we do have idiots like that too!)…

    So don’t worry, get a dictionary and just try, you’d be surpised what nice people you’ll meet and how much fun you’ll have, and around Montreal there are some small Hotels with an AMAZING Kitchen (You go there for the food, the Hotels are rather average, but the CHEFS!!!!!)

    If you want to see something, try

    “La Sauvagine”

    or

    “La Sapiniere” (rather classy, this one)

    or one of my favorites in St. Hipolythe (45 min North of Montreal)

    “Hotel du Lac Mormorency”

    … mmmmmhhhh getting hungry……

  39. R.I.P. Dom DeLuise

    Δ

  40. James-

    I am sorry to hear about what you went through with that wedding.. Some people have no class!

    I see a phenomenon in which sociologists call groupthink. The group thinks blank.. and so since I am part of that group I also think blank and do not question the logic or reasoning behind blank.. Its sick! I never thought that it would ever be like this!

    The problem too is that Iowans generally tend to be passionate about their things… including religion. Now I am not saying that being passionate about religion is a bad thing in itself, but when we quit thinking… Its a horrible thing!!!

    The next couple years are going to be interesting either way. I just hope that people start to realize that they cannot control what other people do with their “God” but that they can only control what they do themselves. Its kind of like that one saying on facebook:

    “Against Gay Marriage, well then don’t get one and shut the f— up”

  41. Onward Christian Soldiers…

    …Part II

    U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan have Pashto Bibles, told to ‘hunt people for Jesus.’

    Δ

  42. I agree GreytdogA. Revenge and a sense of justice are inborn as is the groupism I described. We saw it after the Sunday wedding, and it seems to be playing out at our school.

    Now days, unlike the Romans, we own guns and can make explosives. The Bolshevics’ Molotov cocktails show how easy it is.

    I don’t know who Jesus would torture. He didn’t seem like the type, and He never said.

  43. Werner, we were in Quebec on a Sunday morning and ran into a cab driver during a slow time. He told us to get into his cab and he would show us the city. The cab driver took us through the Old City and down narrow streets as he described the sights. He asked if we were Catholic. We weren’t so he took us inside a Catholic church to watch the ceremony.

    The cab driver didn’t want any money for the impromptu tour, but we gave him some anyway.

  44. And here we go: Onward Christian(?) Soldiers – a look at the military-industrial-evangelical complex

    http://tinyurl.com/dml6f2

    Which leads us to the question: Who Would Jesus Torture?

  45. Interesting look at justice vs. vengeance:

    http://tinyurl.com/cwa5f5

    (Especially in light of James’ recent posts about bullying and Sherri’s posts about government sanctioned inequality)

  46. Hi again,

    Jean it is nice to hear of a society without prejudice. It gives the rest of us hope. However, it is possible that your people were “carefully taught” to ignore our natural programming while the rest of us submit to it.

    The writer of an article, “Is Prejudice, discrimination: Is racism inborn?” “The tendency to discriminate against people of a different ethnic origin may have a biological origin according to a New Scientist article by Mark Buchanan, March 17, 2007″

    Recent computer modeling by political scientists Ross Hammond of the Brookings Institute and Robert Axelrod of the University of Michigan showed that when interacting with others software agents which act in a group, and others also act in groups so as to favor their group and discriminate against or cheat outsiders not in their group do best at the expense of others.

    Ethnocentric groupists eventually come to dominate those who adopt different behavoral strategies eg acting randomly or always cooperating with others whether in their group or not.

    In other words, groupism seems the most effective behavior to insure the success of an individual and his/her group. “Ethnocentrism is a mechanism for generating cooperation and one that does not demand much in the way of congnitive ability, so it is not necessarily a bad thing for general cooperation in the world per se.

    “Now if the rule is survival of the most groupist, i.e. that the most groupist are those who will flourish, then modern day humans may through natural selection have evolved a genetic predisposition to act groupistly from an evolutionary biological perspective. Other experiments by psychologist Herri Tajfel of the Universtity of Bristol using groups of teen aged boys suggest that if you put people into different groups call them red and blue, north and south or whatever, a bias toward ones’ own group will automatically emerge.

    “If ‘groupism wins’ is the best survival rule, it’s no wonder that groupism seems so prevalent in human society, and that we see so many forms of it, racism, nationalism, tribalism, (including football supporters, gang bangers, discrimination against those of different religious faiths, or creeds or who adopt different fashion or clothing styles or lifestyles, high school cliques, etc.”

    Grouping by race seems less important than grouping by similar characteristics or interests. “Back in the pre -history of the human race (and probably still today) it would be important to decide who’s in your group and who’s not quite quickly when first encountering them.” Humans’ primary sense is vision, so grouping is most likely done by catagorizing “someone who looks like me.” “Looks like me” is a crude way of gauging if another group shares genetic material. A biological imperative is promoting your own gene pool.

    Within a community where people have similar origin, people use other markers to differentiate. One would tend to favor relatives and family members. Other markers would be clothing style, and beliefs.

    Thus, groupism may become a “core cultural or moral value of the group as a whole with groupist parents passing down to their children not just groupist biological tendencies but also groupism as in philosophy or way of life. ”

    It may be a case of nature influencing nurture reinforcing and regulating groupism both at a biological pre-programing and as group members indoctrinated to seek their own kind.

    People who survived to live today belonged to groupist societies because they produced better survival chances. “Groupism has to be one of the most powerful forces around, through both nature and nurture. No wonder racial prejudice can be so strong and deeply held. ”

    Johnathan Young wrote “Causes of prejudice and bullying and what you can do about them.” According to evolutionary biologist Robin Dunbar, the human brain can only recognize a maximum of 150 people as fellow human beings. This is our tribe, our family, friends, neighbors, and co workers. Beyond this number keeping the rules if interaction straight becomes too complex for us. We also feel an instinctive need to secure resources for our own tribe, even if this means denying access to other tribes. We therefore resort to stereotyping and other forms of propaganda to dehumanize other people in other tribes. Our brains evolved to repeat the survival orientated adaptations of our predecessors, and this means that even in the context of a so- called global village we retain tribal prejudice.”

    Thus, our natural inclination is to stereotype and dehumanize those who are not like us, whether they be Republicans, Democrats, other other races or religions etc. As Jean’s example of her tolerant community illustrates, we can rise above our biological natures and “carefully” teach our children tolerance of others to over ride our baser instincts. Jean, you and I are both right.

  47. Hi Jean, Dawn, judith, and all of you. My wife used the term “assault” when she complained to the principal about the bullying. The girl who told us about the bullying was not in school yesterday.

    Three of the students who did the yelling were in school, and another was gone because of other charges. They were very quiet. My wife found one lying on the floor in a pretty bad way. Someone may have taken revenge because of Sunday or maybe from something else. The school has survalance cameras, and unless students stood around to hide what happened, the evidence should be there. My wife told the principal they had better get to the bottom of it before someone presses charges and also sues the administration. They have turned deaf ears to this in the past. We shall see what happens this time.

  48. Oh good grief, Caribou Barbie has a new play toy and Joe da Plumber is back in the news and Rush made it into the Times 100. On the other hand, Susan Boyle finally got her chance so maybe the MSM isn’t all bad.

    Werner, I would love to move to Montreal. However, my French is lousy and one does need to speak the language but I do love that city.

    In my neck of the woods, horsey country, gay relationships are accepted but not interracial ones. I often wondered what the reaction would have been if Obama had married a white woman. I think if he had we would be seeing much more race issues than gay issues. So it really does fall back to the main issue which is Equality.

    Namaste Δ

  49. I for one am quite happy that all the right wingers have is this silly little girl spouting her nonsense

  50. Sherri, sorry about attributing your anti-bullying activism to Honeyjorumples. Thanks for all you do to benefit humanity.

  51. Sounds like Rep. Virginia Foxx would be right at home in this neighborhood – http://tinyurl.com/c23ot9

    (note: until we have equal rights for ALL folks regardless of race, creed, sexual orientation, etc, this article is as much about US as it is about Iraq)

  52. And weighing in on same-sex marriage, these words of wizzdom from Joe da Plumber:
    http://thinkprogress.org/2009/05/04/jtp-gay-friends/

    “Joe the Plumber: I would never let gay people ‘anywhere near my children.'”

    (PS get your yakky sak ready)

    I personally would never let my children or my dogs near Joe Da Plumber.

  53. Sherry, I loved your post. However, the truth of the matter is that the sex part is what offends many. Everything else (in their eyes) points to being simply roommates. Then you add the sex and wa-la! You have controversy. It’s sad, but that’s the way the repukes think. Congrats on 14 years and I wish you and your partner many, many more!

    Excellent post Margaret! I’m so tired of being preached at by the republican party I could puke. I live in a red county and was jumped on facebook because I filled out a quiz that pronounced me so far left that I was practically Stalin (LOL). I got many replies from ‘friends’ who thought that was terrible and that they were disappointed in me. Like I give an ass hat what they think. I’m just happy that I can think for myself instead of following my neighbors beliefs. It’s disgusting.

  54. Re bullying at school mentioned earlier :

    When my kids were in school, I told them that they were EQUALLY responsible if they stood by and did nothing while another child was being bullied (whether it was name-calling or physical).

    Our legal system treats accomplices to a crime harshly, and, to me, bullying is no different.

    Δ

  55. Sherri has presented her views in such a meaningful and truthful manner I am having a hard time understanding why she’s taking so much shit for it.

    Probably because she speaks my truth too. I have been with my partner for 10 years now and we just live our lives like anybody else; we work, own properties, have kids and grandkids, practice our faith, travel, follow politics… and on and on. It’s to the point that when someone makes a comment about us being a “gay” couple we’re taken aback, because we simply consider ourselves a couple, no qualifier needed.

    I’ve always wondered, if sex is the first thing that comes to a person’s mind when they meet a same gender couple is it also what they’re thinking about when they meet an opposite gender couple? If not, maybe they ought to think about why that is.

    Helen, great subject as always. Here’s a link to another blog that discusses this subject. High snark alert for those who are delicate.

    In Which the Poo Flingers Have Found Their New Queen – http://www.iamtrex.com/?p=2479

  56. Susan in CT, I’m not one of those people who use the term “gay agenda,” but not to be too literal, the “gay agenda” is equal civil rights. Nothing more, nothing less. You’d think that would be pretty simple, but no.

    If conservative Christians don’t want gay marriage in their chuches, that’s their right. But since marriage is a civil contract (and how many people get married in a civil, rather than religious ceremony), it’s just another one of those pesky equal civil rights.

    You know, the equal civil rights the right-wing (conservative Republicans, Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Virginia Foxx (R-N.C.) who called Matthew Shepard’s murder a “hoax” on the floor of the House, the neo-Nazi party – take your right-wing pick) doesn’t want anyone but them to have.

  57. ‘Caraboo Barbie’ Palin gets an
    assault rifle created in her honor.

    No, this is not a joke.

    Δ

  58. Sandy in Indy,

    I never implied that you have or have not done anything for civil rights. I simply said I work a minimum of 20 hours a week for equality for gay couples because I understand full well the issues you face with same-gender parenting. I will continue to work for full equality for you and the millions of other Americans who do not enjoy full equality.

    You and I are on the same side, Sandy.

  59. 20 years ago, I was in my early 30s, happily married, a non-church-goer and I’m pretty positive I would have been uncomfortable with the idea of gay marriage.

    Then a brother-in-law came out as gay after a divorce caused by an affair his wife had; and after a few mixed up years, became a partner with a wonderful man. After they were together, I actually began to like my brother-in-law (he and the ex-wife were toxic). He raised a wonderful son before he died (and the son, now in his 20s, chooses to maintain a relationship with his father’s partner).

    I lived in Philly for a lot of years and a lot of my colleagues “came out” in those years. I went through a divorce and realized heterosexuals had no monopoly on good unions.

    Then I moved to Portland, OR, where gay couples are a fact of life, and where gay marriage was briefly recognized. I realized many of them had better relationships than most of my married friends. Not all of them, of course (I’ve seen my share of gay couples who have no business being together, either).

    Then my mom died, leading me back to the Protestant church of my childhood and discovered I really don’t care who gets married to whom as long as both are human beings. (I’m not willing to consider man-sheep relationships for those fundamentalists who think there’s no difference between a sheep and a same sex partner.)

    So now I am in my 50s, a churchgoer and realize I just want to be surrounding by loving people and loving couples. I haven’t changed my orientation (I love men) but I just don’t see how it matters who wants to be married to whom. Marriage is hard for anybody but it’s a wonderful institution and legally should be available to everybody equally.

  60. Hi Jean,

    After you took the trouble to write, I can’t respond now. I will later. I am swamped with work.

    We lived compassion and tolerance which our children have. That trait as well as Sarah Palin’s “‘Cuda” personna has been in the family for generations. A pioneer ancestor lost an election because he refused to say grace at a meal, for example.

    Thanks Dawny. It was too bad about the drama, but the couple is still happy. I’m mainly worried about the two kids being bullied in school. Congratulations on your thirty years together. That is an achievement to be proud of.

    As the old joke says, “to the stables, there is work piling up.” A long but not a bad day lies ahead.

  61. Yow! We have had a boatload of hot topicality lately, haven’t we! As for a Palin – Prejean ticket, considering what the Repubs have been doing/not doing lately, it just may come to that! Good heavens! A P-P ticket! Seriously, are we ready for the boisterous jocularity that would unhinge?

    Re: Specter. I can actually see the merit in his party switch. Why would I, with even a mini-molecule of a brain left in my head continue with a party that considers so many of the suffering people in this country “losers”! They are so out of touch they may as well be in a different solar system! When they finally realize what it is to suffer the loss of income, employment, home, car, marriage, the future through no fault of their own, then they just might — I say might — get the idea and shape up.

    Remember Jim Jeffords? Another Republican who kicked over the traces. He left for the same reason so many women leave abusive spouses. Yup, there is such a thing as an abusive political party relationship. Jeffords is a decent moderate with a solid Vermont independent streak who wouldn’t vote to throw Clinton out of office cuz the whole dang impeachment thing ws the worst kind of political show trial and a humungus waste of taxpayer dollars. And he got kicked to the curb by his own party. Nobody has to put up with that.

    As for the latest flu outbreak, it does look hinky because it hit at a time that is highly unusual for the flu. We usually get it during the winter months. Heard today that you can give your flu to an unsuspecting animal, so the transmission goes both ways!

    So glad you are back and in form! Keep on keeping on.

  62. Susan–neither can they. It’s just a pejorative expression which is intended to convey the impression that there’s an organized strategy. It’s used by those who won’t just accept that there’s a disagreement on principle but who want to respond by a “parade of horribles” that’s based on the fallacious assumption that someone who supports Issue A also supports particular Result B. Hence, we have the Feminist Agenda and the Gay Agenda and the Socialist Agenda.

    I don’t know whether this was a Rove creation but it’s the sort of thing he does. And it’s consistent with people like Hannity who prefer labels over intelligent discourse.

  63. I do wish people who use the term “gay agenda” could explain just what it is that they mean. I bet most can’t.

  64. I still scratch my head at the connection between how gay marriage affects anyone else besides the couple that is getting married?

    Two people who love each other and want to venture into marriage should be applauded? How exactly is that going to change anyone else’s lifestyle or infringe anything upon them?

    Trying to ban gay marriage is the only infringement!

    We should be focusing on the credit card holder’s bill of rights. In case you thought that just because you pay your bills on time and always pay more than the minimum means that you won’t get an interest increase, you’re WRONG! What makes things worse is that these banks have been bailed out with our money. Now, they’re punishing us for being good credit card customers and now we have to shell out more taxes and more interest to them.

    It’s very criminal, you should all care and write your local representative!

  65. When I first saw the clip, what bothered me the most was Prejean’s use of the words “in MY country…” as if Hilton did not belong in HER country.

    And in the Seeger spirit, may I remind her this land is OUR land?

    I agree with Lori – when Prejean CHOSE to align herself with NOM, it showed she wants all the publicity she can get out of this.

  66. I think the main issue with the Palin / Prejean ticket in 2012 will be taht every male calling them dumb will be calleda chauvinist in return, so IF we get THAT stupidity, it’s “All Girlz, to the front”!

    But we “bash that trash” when we get there……

  67. Is anyone else as disgusted by Ms. Prejean’s hypocrisy as I am? I mean, really…. Homilizing about the sanctity of marriage whilst parading her scantily-clad, surgically altered T&A on national TV?

    Barf.

  68. “the toxic waste from the tar sands extraction of oil is killing the indigenous people whose land and waterways are being poisoned.”

    Between that, and mountain-top removal coal mining, and uranium mining….. We “need” our energy, and the companies want their money — we have to find a better way.

  69. Miss California Trying to Redefine Traditional Breasts for the Rest of US.

    Δ

  70. Sherri Δ
    while every word you state is right I think I have to defend the people you “scalded” here.

    As I understand what I read (and this is only MY understanding, I don’t pretend I KNOW what other people ment when they wrote their comments) I understand the “..out of other peoples bedroom” comments in the line that nothing that happens in ANY bedroom should have an influence on who is marrying whom.

    And while we all know that sex is a strong attraction in the beginning of ALL relationships, we are all old enough to know it takes a less dominat spot after time and there are tons of other values that take predecent (?).

    So, methinks, your barking up the wrong tree, and while all your arguments are right and valid, they are not directed at the “right” clientel (sorry the pun ;-))

    So, love you still, support your fight, but go easy on us, please?

  71. Erica
    invest some time in learning french, than you can come and live in Quebec and enjoy life even more….. (better food, more crazy people than you can throw a bat at)

    From Werner that moved from Hamburg to Montreal, Quebec….
    :-P to Ian, and if you haven’t rented a canu yet to go on the channels, you missed on of the best parts of a great City. (Take food and wine and make it a daytrip, it takes a few hours to get to the more hidden and niceer parts)

  72. LRA
    I second that, we should all PROMOTE the Palin/Prejean ticket and when it get’s up to vote, base a campaign on something like: Do you prefere the looks of your President to the accomplishments?
    Or somewhere along those lines, …. even republicans can think, you know….;-)

  73. Greytdog
    on your secession comment in the last blog:

    ….I personally think that all that aid should be repaid immediately upon secession from the union. . . we can use the monies to rework the border fencing….

    I think Berlin still has cheap sections of concrete wall, ….if they haven’t sold it to the Israelis yet….

  74. And something on Christian values:

    “Anyone who thinks sitting in church can make you a Christian must also think that sitting in a garage can make you a car.”
    by Garrison Keillor

  75. Dear Helen
    what you expect of the GOP? It NEVER was about politics in their campaing, always about winning….

    And if they can’t win with arguments (How should they if they ain’t got any?) they try to win with tits and arses!

    Beauty Queens to the front!

    Get us te elections!

    Politics and torture will be taken care of AFTER we won…..

    Live is so beautifull, myfriend, sometimes it just makes me puke….. (refrain of an old and very angry song of mine from the early 80s)

  76. Ok, along the ‘Who Cares’ theme……

    If we ever got a handle on what people do to other people against their will, I might start caring about what the consenting adults get up to. However, since that doesn’t look like it’s going to happen in my lifetime, I’m in the Not-Giving-A Rat’s Ass contingent.

    Want to marry, shack up with, care for or otherwise pal around with a Florida grapefruit? – fine with me. As long as it’s an adult, consenting citrus. Doesn’t change the value of my relationship at all. Can’t imagine how it would.

    I’m with Helen. All the problems we’re facing, we choose this to obsess about?

  77. James, Sorry that what should have been a happy day was full of drama. Congrats to the newly married couple. Have to agree with Jean. I also believe that we are taught prejudices. Practice kindness and compassion, and your children will imulate you. Teach them well.

    Sherri, your argument is a good one, and you state it with passion and eloquence. I have been one to say “Who Cares”. It does come down to sex. My argument has always been that the hetro neighbors who just returned from church may be into a kink that you find unfathomable. Consenting adults… “Who Cares!”. From now on will temper my disagreements with an example of the mundane day to day. Thank you.

    Thirty years ago I married the love of my life in a civil ceremony. Would dare anyone to contest the validity of our union because it wasn’t sanctioned by an organized religion.

    Whirled, my new favorite word is Namaste’.

    Honolulu Sally, What a kind heart, and beautiful person you are. I love seeing the beauty in all things as well. Makes life grand!

    Grandma Katie, Hope you are well.

    Helen, you are before coffee in the morning. :]

  78. Hi James,

    My, you did have an eventful afternoon! It is actually hard for me to imagine that kind of animosity anymore but unfortunately, it does exist – everyday.

    I cite our little island of Kauai as a microcosm of what society COULD be: multi-racial, multi-religious, multi-ethnic. What little problems we have are mostly economic inequality.

    People here have come from all over the world and for several generations intermarried so much that there is hardly such a thing as a ‘pure’ anything. That goes for religion. All the religions are represented but with respect for each other’s beliefs. We wouldn’t miss the local Japanese Honwanji’s Annual Bon Dance for anything! We have the largest Hindu temple outside of India. Beautiful edifice and grounds!!! Come and visit Kauai and see for yourself.

    Of course, gender and family resemblances are based on genetics and with males, testosterone.
    There are and always will be exceptions to every rule. That’s where mutations come from when the ACTG gets knocked around during DNA replication. Variety is the spice of life!!!

    Aloha!

    Jean

  79. off topic here

    went to the public meeting re: the enbridge mega-project that is preparing to add additional pipelines between the tar sands in alberta and the oil refineries in chicago. the toxic waste from the tar sands extraction of oil is killing the indigenous people whose land and waterways are being poisoned.

    we learned a new word today. “overburden” — that is what the oil corporations call what the rest of us call the environment, the eco-system,
    or the creator’s garden. that word refers to the boreal forest, the rocks, the soils, the animal habitat that have to be removed by mega-shovels, in order to reach the tar sands (deposits of oil).

    suggested reading:
    “stupid to the last drop”
    by william marsden
    (avialable though amazon.com)

    existing pipes are pumping both ways. extracted oil from the tar sands mines in alberta to chicago and chemical dilutants for the extraction process going from chicago to alberta. these are highly toxic chemicals
    that seep at record speeds in spills. contrary to statements by enbridge, sections of the current pipelines are exposed northern minnesota.

    bush administration 11th hour declaration of oil availability being a “national security interest” eliminated many of the oversight procedures to protect environment and property rights.

    tar sands extraction is bad news. it is a scorched earth policy that is poisoning the ground water for our children’s grand children.

  80. Short. Sweet. True.

  81. James, the most common definition of ‘assault’ is ‘being put in fear of injury’, or some such. You don’t have to touch a person to assault them. Once you touch them, it becomes ‘battery’. Now, most batteries are also assaults, unless you get whacked from behind and don’t see it coming. But anything that can reasonably be interpreted as a physical threat is, in fact, assault. Tough to provei, but it can sometimes be proven without actually having to get injured. Witnesses or any evidence should do it, as long as the people in charge of enforcement are interested in doing their jobs. Good luck.

  82. Sherri. High horse. Long fall. The problem with this cause are those that suddenly no longer see the forest for the trees. You have no idea what I have done or not done for civil rights. It seems you are the one hung up on sex. The rest of us are happy to bring members into the fold through the frint door, the kitchen door, the back door and, yes, even the bedroom door if that is what it takes.

  83. Hi Jean,

    Thanks for answering. As you can read, we had a busy afternoon, and this act may continue tomorrow.

    Read “The Boy Who was Raised as a Girl.” It illustrates the power of gender identity at an early age.

    My father took us back to North Carolina where he was born. My brother and I were teenagers who had never met the scores of people who remembered the family. Two old women joked my brother was definitely my fathers’ son. He walked just like his great uncle who died when my father was a boy.

    True, that is only an anecdote, but some of the boys mentioned in the above post and girls who did the bullying in school come from good homes. Again, it is not a true test, only suggestive, because we don’t know what their parents taught them.

    A better test would be a multiple racial, religious society with no religious, gender, racial or other bias or prejudice. If you know of several, that might convince me. So far, I don’t know of any, black, white or of any other combination. I strongly support the theory of evolution. If I am wrong, we should be able to find thriving exceptions to the rule.

  84. My wife and I just returned from our first legal gay wedding in Iowa. We also paid for the marriage license as a wedding present. The happy couple told us they were the only ones in our small county to apply for a wedding license on Monday.

    We had a nice meal and visited with some people I knew and others my wife knew as well as perfect strangers. Some was surreal because a number were hard people with unusual lives. I got to see a woman who baby sat our children when they were very young. She and her four children had slept on our living room couch after their home burned down.

    Everything was fine, and the crowd began to thin. Then, some teenagers, at least one of whom is my wife’s student, drove by in two or three cars and yelled names. Two young men, one a son of one of the newly married couple, jumped into their pickups and gave chase . A woman did too.

    The vehicles headed for the interstate at 100 to 120 MPH. The woman caught up with and nearly forced one of the cars off the road. Someone at the party reminded the pursuers via cell phone, the kids were minors and they had better not touch them.

    They returned as a deputy showed up, and they told their stories. A high school junior and grade school boy have been harassed for two weeks because they are related to one of the couple, and the girl knew who the kids were. One of the women mentioned hate crime and anti -bullying laws and told the deputy if the sherrif doesn’t do anything she will sue the parents. Another sherrif’s car showed up as did the town marshal and a member of the town council.

    I suggested the kids wire themselves and keep records of the bullying and what is said. Someone claimed verbal abuse is now legally assault, but I don’t know.

    Our school superintendent ignored previous complaints, but he was fired in March. Our school will share a superintendant with another school next year, and someone told us he will not put up with bullying. One of the kids already has charges against him for vandalism. Now that she knows, my wife will file a formal complaint against the kids if they do anything untoward tomorrow.

    They returned as someone else called the sherrif.
    They gave names and addresses thanks to the girl. A deputy chatted with one of the kids who had returned to shoot hoops. They talked for over twenty minutes. The boy and girl didn’t want to go to school tomorrow, but we convinced them to do so.

    Had she been my daughter, I would have encouraged her to stand up to them while walking a find line between incitement and victimization to let them physically hurt her. Then, she could charge them with assault. But she is not my daughter.

    That is how we in a small town handled it. The trick is not to be a victim but turn the enemy into victims. You respect the H out of them as you grind them into the dust.

  85. Hi gang and James,

    Quoting from your post, James. “Yes, I still believe prejudice and bias are inborn because it had a survival value in the past. The trait won’t go away no matter how enlightened we are. Even on this message board, posters subconsciously attempt to dehumanize Republicans or conservatives with uncomplimentary names and exaggerations just as conservative posters do on their message boards. Calling a person a “dimocrat” in my opinion is in league with calling an Italian a WOP or a white a gringo.

    We don’t know what babies think. There is some evidence to suggest babies are born with a gender identity, a tendency toward gregariousness or shyness, and likely other traits. It is not a stretch for me to think they could be born with tendencies toward bias.”

    I think it is a huge stretch! We can never get inside the head of any other human or even creatures. But numerous studies have shown that the RESPONSES (and non responses) to stimuli of babies have to do with its own narcissistic basic needs – food, shelter, warmth, security and love. The child is certainly aware of its dependency on those who care for him/her for survival. But whether the caregivers are white, black, green, purple, American, European, Asian, Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Gay or Straight is of no consequence to its perception of survival whatsoever. Those ‘biased labels’ are LEARNED later in life as the child grows up.

    If a child is raised in a benevolent environment, he/she is much more likely to grown up to be loving, empathetic and altruistic than one who is raised in a restrictive and punitive environment. Of course, this does not apply to the teen years when the limits must be tested and the child is learning to think for him/herself. Which is another way of saying, learning to outgrow narcissism and begin to think of the needs of others too. As we all know there are plenty of stumbling blocks along THAT path! That is, he/she no longer AUTOMATICALLY reacts to internal stimuli that arise in response to memories that have been laid down through years of learning.

    And then there are genetic and hormonal influences. In the new May issue of “Scientific American”, there are two interesting articles, “What Makes us Human – what tiny genetic changes say about our evolution” and “Taming the Urge to War – must lethal conflict be an inveitable part of human culture?” Of course, for people who have been TAUGHT to discount the Theory of Evolution on the grounds of religion, there can be no discussion.

    I’m quoting Polybius here. He was a Greek historian who spent much of his adult life as a hostage and then as a favorite in the upper echelons of the Roman Empire.

    “The quality in which the Roman commonwealth is most distinctly superior is, the nature of its religion. The very thing that among other nations is an object of reproach – i.e. superstition – is that which maintains the cohesion of the Roman state. These matters are clothed in such pomp, and introduced to such an extent into public and private life, as no other religion can parallel. . . I believe that the government has adopted this course for the sake of the common people. This might not have been necessary had it been possible to form a state composed of wise men but as every multitide is fickle, full of lawless desires, unreasoned passion, and violent anger, it must be held in by invisible terrors and religious pageantry.”

    Devotion to the religion and state marked the zenith of the Roman Republic, as unparreled political corruption marked its fall. Rome remained great as long as she had enemies who forced her to unity, vision and heroism. When she had overcome them all she flourished for a moment and then began to die.

    So the link between religion, government and thus the military has an ancient history going back way, way before the Roman Empire came into being. It only honed the skills at exploiting religion for its own objectives.

    I’ll talk about our experiences in the military at another time.

    Aloha!

    Jean

  86. After The Great Recession: An Interview With Barack Obama

    Δ

  87. And by the way Miss California, in my day, all holier than thou, virtuous beauty queens paid for their own boob jobs.

  88. Keep moving folks, there is nothing to see here. If I am reading Helen right, then she and I share the opinion, that the twenty-four hour news channels dribble nonsensical non-news to us daily. Just the fact that we are discussing Miss California’s opinion, as inarticulate and biased a statement as I have ever heard, presented as a news story by a bevy of would otherwise be weathergirls, gives these bastions of television gossip undeserved creditability. I am swearing off CNN, Fox, and MSNBC until they actually hire journalists and spend some of their massive advertising revenues collecting real news. In the meantime I am going to read more domestic and foreign newspapers online, I, for one, am sick and tired of being treated like I am a brainless twit. May their advertising dwindle to nothing and their ratings plummet.

  89. Every time I think that Republicans have shown their asses and their ignorance has reached a level that cannot go lower, I find myself wrong… opening their arms to a beauty queen with donated breast implants, who is one to talk when it comes to having values, is their newest low.

  90. yeah obviously Prejean has no smarts up in that plastic brain of hers…

    Iowa is interesting when it comes to the gay marriage thing. Our state judicial branch overturned a law, because it violated the state’s equal protection clause in our constitution… The same clause that allows women, minorities, and all people to have the same rights.
    But yet we have such a religious portion of our population that is calling for the changing of that law and a vote for or against gay marriage. WTF!!!

    The legislative session is over for this period, so from the sounds of it due to the way that the state constitution is written it cannot come up for a vote until 2010… and even thats pushing it due to the budget crunches that our legislature is dealing with. Most likely its not going to come up until 2011…. Meanwhile the religious pundits hold their damn teabag parties at Culver’s doorstep!

    Of course we all gotta love how religion has become an excuse for stupidity lately… Palin and Prejean are perfect examples of this. Of course we cannot forget our dear friend Rush!! with his oxycontin and donuts!

    Helen as always good job pointing out the obvious! Keep it up!

  91. ALRIGHT JUdith!!!!!!! You go girl….

  92. Mapping Sin, LOL

  93. “Reading the posts here is always such an up for me. Today was no exception, but especially thank you to Susan Sarabosha for that wonderful link.”

    Cat

    That was a great link. I missed it the first time so thanks Cat for the bump.

  94. I take my stand with Sherri on not defining marriage as who you have sex with.

    A problem I have with the marriage denial for gays folks is the lack of rights that goes with marriage denial. If a gay or lesbian partner becomes gravely ill, the unmarried but loving and committed partner does not have the right to make decisions on his/her behalf.

    At least some of the time they cannot put their partners on their medical insurance.

    Some of these issues may have been partially resolved outside marriage legalization, but I cannot believe that without recognition of a same gender marriage, that these rights are uniformly guarranteed.

    Seems to me this is not equality.

  95. I just can’t go back to that era of complete ignorance- we are making so many strides forward this year.

  96. Standing up and applauding Sherri Δ!!!!! You go, girl!!!!!!

  97. forest4the trees:

    “This is such a misconception that you have to be a “conservative” to believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman. This is a notion that is pushed by the gay agenda.”

    Gay agenda? Whose “gay agenda”? I’m gay. Here’s my gay agenda:

    1. Equality.

    2. See #1.

  98. “Right, I’m a bigot, I know. But for the left.”

  99. Mapping SIN

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/05/mapping-sin.html

  100. “The rest of us are just regular folk just trying to stay out of the fringe’s net.Just sayin”

    Goes with: Keep your head down. Don’t cause trouble. Don’t make waves. If you keep your head down, you can’t be accused of anything. All you have to do is say yassuh massa i’sa comin’ and you’ll get by just fine.

    If looking out for one another, if standing up for human rights, if holding your head up and saying NO to torture, NO to folks who want to legalize bigotry and oppression , if that means being labeled “fringe”, then what the hell does that say about our society as whole?

  101. May I also suggest (forgot to include this in my previous post) that you watch Roy Zimmerman’s excellent song “Defenders of Marriage?” You’ll laugh, you’ll cry, you’ll become a BIG fan:

  102. This is such a misconception that you have to be a “conservative” to believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman. This is a notion that is pushed by the gay agenda. I am a Democrat and I have many different beliefs that don’t all go along one line. I believe in a woman’s right to chose, I believe in equality of the races, I believe we need to protect our environment. These are considered “liberal” values. I think it is ridiculous to label people either conservative or liberal. Everyone has gray area in their belief systems and most people can not be pigeonholed into either label. I’m sure there are Republicans who believe in a woman’s right to chose, in the environment etc. I doubt they all “think alike” as we are told to believe. That is just propoganda that has been spread and utilized to pressure people into changing their core belief system in saying you are either a “liberal whacko” or a “right wing whacko”. Most people are moderates and it’s the people on either side of extremism trying to push their agendas on the rest of us. It is “you are either with us or against us” mentality from both sides of the aisle. It’s about time someone spoke up about these labels and disposed of them from our vocabulary. Only the fringe of society fits completely into either label. The rest of us are just regular folk just trying to stay out of the fringe’s net.Just sayin.

  103. Well, yes, we have a right to our opinion and to express it out loud.

    And others have a right to disagree, also out loud, and to impose whatever legally allowable level of consequences we can.

    Couple of examples – the Boy Scouts decided to exclude gays. Ok, they’re a private organization taking no government money, they can do that. And I can simply decide to write them off as any possible recipient of any charitable contribution I might choose to make, until they change their ways. See, I can do that, too.

    The United Way – in the eighties, they pissed me off big time. For one thing, they caved to the extreme righties in deciding who to include in their charities. But a bigger issue was a stunt they pulled at my husband’s workplace (and many other workplaces).

    Big corporations, like the one he worked for, were courted by the United Way. They got big, big press if they could get 100% contribution from their employees. Note – 100%. No exceptions. Not for any reason.

    The Big Corp wanted this bad. They offered their employees a day off & a company picnic with full pay if this could be achieved.

    Now, what you need to know is that there are a few religions that prohibit contributions to charities of this kind. Don’t know why, don’t care, they’re also allowed. the Big Corp had 2 employees who held these beliefs in my husband’s division.

    These people were hounded by their fellow employees. One was trapped in the bathroom and screamed at. Both received multiple midnight calls at their homes. One finally quit the company; the other held out, stayed on & was, hands down, the most hated person in the building. The Big Corp knew and didn’t care.

    United Way had been warned that this could happen. They could have made an exception for religious beliefs, but chose not to. They wanted the money. They also will never again get a penny of mine.

    To bring this back to the beauty queen – she can express her beliefs all she wants. But she was looking to be hired as a spokesperson for an organization that depends on sponsors. (Gasp – you mean it’s not about the scholarships?)

    If you cause nasty consequences for sponsors, sponsors go away. The pageant is not interested in hiring a loose cannon who might lose them money. See how that works? Consequences.

    And if the Republic Party wants to use her, Palin, Bachman and others of that ilk as spokespeople – well, it’s already seeing some of those consequences. Starting with the last election.

  104. As always, thank you Helen and Margaret. I so enjoy your blog. Might be time once again for me to send a message to my friend in Maine who sent me the link last year before the election.

    Reading the posts here is always such an up for me. Today was no exception, but especially thank you to Susan Sarabosha for that wonderful link.

    Cat

  105. Sandy in Indy,

    I’ll take support wherever I can get it, too. Educating others about our lives and our issues is not fighting with them. It is helping them have better arguments so they can garner even more support for us from their own circles of friends and family.

    I fully understand your issues with your children, and it is one reason I spend countless hours of my life working for your rights. You’re welcome.

    Gay and Emeril, I can take your heat. I’ve been an activist long enough to know that people who do not support marriage equality for same-sex couples do not support it b/c they, in fact, do relegate our relationships to nothing but sex and they believe same-sex sex is morally wrong and therefore people who practice same-sex sex do not deserve the same civil rights as people who practice opposite-sex sex. My point is people (both those who support us and those who oppose us) need to learn to see our relationships as a whole and not to identify our relationships solely by sex. I guarantee you nobody who opposes same-sex marriage is opposed to or offended by two same-gendered adults traveling together, cooking meals together, shopping together, seeing movies together, etc. Same-sex adults all over the world become housemates and share many facets of their lives together and no one opposes, including fundamentalists. But if two same-sex adults share an intimate, loving relationship, suddenly it is morally wrong…b/c of the sex. If people who oppose them would learn to value their relationship as a whole and quit thinking about the sexual aspect of their relationship, they would be supportive of the familial bonds they’re building and how society as a whole is strengthened and enriched by these relationships.

    You’re welcome to disagree with me, but if you would get out there and volunteer a minimum of 20 hours a week of your lives working for civil rights and social justice, you would agree with me that people need to value our relationships as a whole and quit defining our relationships solely by the sex. And you would agree with me that many people who support us also need to learn to argue for our civil rights with educated, valid arguments.

    We will never win civil rights and equality without the support of heterosexuals. Believe me, I am grateful for anyone and everyone who supports us for any reason. That does not diminish the fact that if people want to affect and change the opinions of non-supporters, they have to educate themselves on the valid arguments that are actually going to change minds.

    “Get your mind out of other people’s bedrooms” is not going to change anyone’s position or belief. That’s all I’m trying to convey, and I appreciate the majority of the readers and posters here who understand that.

  106. “I believe that state by state, the ban on gay marriage will be challenged and in some states, overturned (like Iowa and Vermont so far).”

    And here in Connecticut the legislature passed the bill that defines marriage as between two consenting adults outside of certain relationships (siblings, parent-child, and several others). The National Organization for Marriage spent a LOT of money here before that passage, with full-page newspaper ads, robocalls, surveys, radio and TV commercials filled with all SORTS of false information.

    You just can’t help wondering what they’re afraid of — how can people believe that someone else’s marriage threatens theirs?

    As loud and clear as I hear (and agree with) the statement that marriage is only partly about sex, I do think that this is indeed the hub around which the whole anti-gay-marriage wheel spins. If you can make it about sex that is, for whatever reasons, not acceptable to you (religious, fearful, whatever), you’ve got a hook, and it catches those who want to think that there’s something icky about it.

  107. James,

    Chicat has it right. Marriage is a civil institution first, and a religious institution second. When people go to the county clerk’s office and get a signed marriage certificate, their marriage is officially recognized by state and federal govt. the instant their certificate is signed. (Which, by the way, gives them 1,183 rights, benefits, and protections that same-sex couples do not have.)

    Most people have some sort of public ceremony or wedding to recognize their civil marriage. If they choose not to have a religious wedding, their marriage is still legal and legally recognized. If they have the religious ceremony or wedding only, they are not legally married and do not have the rights, benefits, and protections that come with their legal marriage.

    Same-sex couples are NOT asking any church, denominiation, or religious organization to recognize our marriages. We are asking for CIVIL marriage. When we get it (and in the four states where we can be legally married now) churches, denominations, clergy, and religious folks still have the perogative to refuse to recognize our marriages, and they certainly are not obligated to allow same-sex couples to have a public ceremony in their place of worship….just as they can refuse to “marry” hetero couples now.

    I know my opinion is considered biased b/c I am gay, but I do NOT sympathize w/ fundamentalists and others whom you say “have a spiritual duty to follow their beliefs and….have a right to their opinions.” Hatred, discrimination, and intolerance in the name of religion is still hatred, discrimination, and intolerance. If fundamentalists had their way, slavery would still be legal and marrying a person of a differing race would still be illegal — those laws were based on religious beliefs. People who do not support marriage equality for same-sex couples based on their religious beliefs are ignorant about what the Bible REALLY does and does not teach about homosexuality. They cling to their misperceptions and misunderstanding BECAUSE they cling to their intolerance and discrimination. People have ALWAYS justified intolerance and discrimination through religious beliefs and it is an ignorant, privileged, superior way to live. I do not feel badly for them. Religion is about rules…spirituality is about relationships. Rules allow everyone who follows them to feel superior to everyone who does not and to justify their intolerance toward the rule-breakers. Those who have put the discriminatory teachings of the Bible in their historical context and realized those who have studied what the Bible actually teaches about homosexuality are in favor of marriage equality.

    Religion is NOT justification for discrimination, period.

  108. Who Would Jesus Torture?

    Δ

  109. I thought so too Raji, so I’ll post it again on this thread.

    Anyone wanna start
    The Purple Party?

    Δ

  110. Welcome Back, Helen!
    It is good to once again read your take on the insanity that plagues this country.

    I truly don’t understand why two men or two women who want to marry are such a threat to heterosexuals who are married or who want to marry. I would say that those who are threatened by gay marriage must be very insecure.

  111. Hi Jean,

    Yes, I still believe prejudice and bias are inborn because it had a survival value in the past. The trait won’t go away no matter how enlightened we are. Even on this message board, posters subconsciously attempt to dehumanize Republicans or conservatives with uncomplimentary names and exaggerations just as conservative posters do on their message boards. Calling a person a “dimocrat” in my opinion is in league with calling an Italian a WOP or a white a gringo.

    We don’t know what babies think. There is some evidence to suggest babies are born with a gender identity, a tendency toward gregariousness or shyness, and likely other traits. It is not a stretch for me to think they could be born with tendencies toward bias.

    The Air Force was officially non- discrimatatory, and officially, everyone got an even break, but the society was biased. On one base, I hung out with five black men, and they gave me an earful of how life in the “world” was for them. People called me a N lover because we were good friends. One of the men, a Black Muslim, told me I was the only white man he had ever trusted. I was nothing special. He was as predjudiced as the rest, but I didn’t tell him that. I was too shocked.

    On one base, our squadron officers told us we were enlisted trash, almost too stupid to function. They were dehumanzing us in the same fashion people dehumanize gays, liberals, Indians, conservatives or any other group out of the preceived norm. We learned to feel the same toward them, only they had the power. We did find ways to get even, though.

    They delighted in giving us orders and changing them to get us into trouble. One man took notes on everything an officer said to protect himself and us. It wasn’t just we lower grade airmen. The NCOs were victims too. The commander told our NCOIC that he knew moral was bad, but we needed to watch our steps. In any dispute, our commander would automatically take the officers’ sides. One doctor goaded my Black Muslim friend into hitting him. He thought it was a joke, and I overheard him bragging about it afterward. My friend lost a stripe.

    Several dentists learned I had a college degree, and their attitude toward me changed. They invited me to parties. I went twice before I learned their game. I was a token enlisted man designed to illustrate to the officers’ friends, that they were good, tollerent liberals.

    A year later, a new commander arrived from Vietnam, and his bias favored enlisted airmen. The second in command was also new, and he felt as his superior did. He also took a liking to me.

    Thanks to him, and his spirit of revenge for us, I loved to “accidently” be around when one or the other commander chewed out our officers as if they were new recruits. The officers knew I was there and why, but there wasn’t a thing they could do about it. I just smiled.

    Another foreign base was not like that, but predjudise was still there. Our NCOICs wife said she really liked our black dental tech. He was almost urbane and so smart, just a genuine nice guy. He also “knew” his place.

    We were all friends. He asked another Airman if whites joked about blacks when none were around. Of course whites wouldn’t do that. It would be wrong.

    My friend asked me if that was true, and I told him we did joke about blacks in private. He admitted blacks did the same to whites. The other white guy gave me a dirty look.

    I lived in a small county, and I graduated from college in January. Thus, my chances of being drafted were pretty good. Enlisting gave me a better choice of service jobs and base location. I spoke to the Air Force, because relatives were Airmen, and I took some tests. I had planned to attend graduate school, so I applied there also. On the same day I was admitted with an assistanceship, my draft notice came. I took the physical and told the Air Force.

    Three days before I was to leave, another letter came telling me to go nowhere. The Air Force and Army were debating who got me. Two weeks later, the Air Force won, and I went to Lackland AFB. I was 23.

    I served from 1966 to 1970 as a medic. One base was a secret training facility for South Vietnamese, Camodian, and Laotian pilots and support crews. At Ellsworth AFB, South Dakota, I hung around the weather offices and they put me to work helping them. They taught me weather code and forecasting. The commander requested that I be transferred to the weather squadron, but the medics refused.

    Some bad things happened to me, as you know, and on both occasions, retention officers told me not to judge the Air Force by those events. The other two years were pretty good. I made E-5 Staff Sargent in under four years, and my efficiency ratings were as high as they could get.
    I helped save a life, and that still makes me feel good.

    My then fiance and I didn’t see each other for two years. We got married, quickly because time was short, and we were parted again for four months. Eventually, we ended up in England and after life over a pub and another place we lived in a thatched roofed cottage with a large garden.

    You already know the grief I caught because I was a veteran, especially when I attended graduate school. So, lessons I learned were: we are all capable of predjudice to one degree or another. We often don’t recognize it in ourselves. Standards of morality are flexible to fit different situations, and personal loyalty is one of the best traits of our species. Uncontrolled emotions can be dangerous. Even our enemies deserve respect as fellow human beings, when we must kill each other for one or the other to survive.

    What did you learn, Jean? What did your husband do in the service? Did you keep in touch with any of the people from back then? Did your husband serve in the US or out of the country?

    ChiCat, thanks for the nice comment. I agree, marriage has two facites, the spiritual and the secular. A government sanctions marriage because it benefits the society. Religion should play no role in that decision. Jesus said “render unto Ceasar…” In that respect, a state has the right to let a woman and her car marry if such a marriage benefits society.

    Religions as you write have a spiritual duty to follow their beliefs and to regulate the spiritual side of marriage. We should not condemn people with honest beliefs. By the same token, their religious doctrine has no place in civil matters because we are not a theocracy. I sympathize with fundamentalists and others, and they have a right to their opinions. I respect them, but they will lose because our constitution is not on their side.

    Yes, Dawnwitzke, gay marriage is a big topic here in Iowa isn’t it. I was one of the few if not the only one who posts here who attended a TEA Party. We face another first.

    My wife just told me as she left for church, she thinks our friends are getting married this afternoon. The invitation was word of mouth, not on paper and with so much going on this week, my wife forgot the date. She will call when she returns. If the ceremony is today, I will be one of the first who posts here to attend a legal gay wedding. I will report back later about this happy day.

  112. Happy Birthday to Pete Seeger! Inscribed on the sounding board of his banjo: “THIS INSTRUMENT SURROUNDS HATE AND FORCES IT TO SURRENDER.”

    Amen!

  113. And to me, this statement “‘cept no one will try to prevent one of them from visiting another in the hospital or getting health benefits,” is the true crux of the matter. If miss CA and her new found buddies really want to protect the sanctity of marriage, then they need to start advocating higher court costs for divorce, demanding that churches (Catholic and otherwise) adhere to the Biblical injunction “let no man put asunder”, and working to outlaw “no fault divorce”, uphold and strengthen alimony and child support, etc. The divorce rate among straights is the real threat to the sanctity of marriage – my dad used to refer to Liz Taylor (whom he loved as an actress) as a serial monogomist. The Fundies need to focus on straight people who violate the sanctity of marriage when they screw around and/or divorce, . . . here are two candidates they can start on: Mel Gibson and John Edwards.

  114. Whirled peas, good link on the Purple Party calls!

  115. Most of my animals are bi or gay. No big whoop, ‘cept no one will try to prevent one of them from visiting another in the hospital or getting health benefits, so they don’t need to marry or have a civil union.

    Eeeesh, this whole “marriage” needs to remain sacred, kept pure. Think of that the next time mom calls dad a s*#@head. “So long as it’s a man and a woman…” Get over it. Live it and quit yer yapping about the sanctity of it.

    And now for a giggle: new video of my dog driving the car, and SUSAN BOYLE MAKEOVERS!! Tee hee.

    http://drbuzzieboombatz.wordpress.com/

  116. The whole of the Republican party is a washed-up beauty queen!!

    Gosh, if we weren’t the same sex, and had such an age difference, I’d want to marry you, Helen. ;-)

  117. Hi James,

    Are you still buying into: We are born with discrimination in order to survive. Babies couldn’t care less about ANY of the prejudices that we are carefully TAUGHT to believe.

    It is none of my business, but just curious. How old were you when you went into the military and how long did you serve? Did you enlist or were you drafted? I can’t remember when the all-volunteer military came into being.

    My husband was in the Air Force for five years back in the Korean Conflict Days, three of which after we were married. The experiences we encountered were eye openers! We both did about faces on a number of long held beliefs once we were on the ‘inside looking out’.

    Aloha1

    Jean

  118. well
    i am thinking that with all that is going ….gay marriage shouldn’t be any deal breakers right now. i mean globally we are in a recession, nationally our economy is being bartered and bought through foreign investers…..so we are losing who are ….
    if gay people wanna get married? fine. how are we going to build our country back? if we are tripping about a pretty girl like paelin in 2012…..then …hey…lets just deal with that when it comes because right now wer are focused on the first 100 days !!!!

  119. Gay marriage is a BIG topic here in Iowa with the Supreme Court overruling the marriage law. It has stired up a lot of hatred on both sides. I think more people are PO’d that the Courts told us we had to allow gay marriage then there are people who give a flying flip about the actual issue.

    And a comment towards the original post. It’s because Republican’s are able to multi-task. ;)

  120. Miss California is entitled to her opinion, and we are entitled to mock her for it. If the judges (and everyone else) are not allowed to JUDGE her based on her response, why the heck is there a Q&A?

    James, I appreciate your well thought, well articulated view, but I take issue with
    “You cannot expect people who have for generations been raised that God sanctioned marriage between a man and a woman to suddenly accept something different. Personal salvation is at stake for many.”
    Separation between Church and State. I can and do expect people to check their religious beliefs at the door when it come to matters of state. Marriage is a state-sanctioned contract between two consenting adults that covers financial, medical, educational, parental custodial, etc. obligations. Marriage is a civil rights issue. No church is in any way obligated to marriage anyone. Most Catholic church refuse to marry a couple if one is divorced. Many churches (synagogues/temples) refuse to marry a couple unless BOTH are adherents to their religion. Gay marriage changes nothing about religious freedom. The only thing that changes is the injustice of denying consenting adults the right to marry.

  121. Okay so she spoke her truth. That she spoke her truth doesn’t speak to the validity of her statement but to the truth that even idiots are protected by under our right to free speech. Don’t confuse that right with validity or truth. No one’s said she should shut up, she believes it’s from God’s mouth to hers, and she can squeal it all she wants – but her truth is really opinion and that’s all it is. After all, David Duke is allowed to speak his truth too – but that doesn’t make it true or valid or without bigotry.

  122. an obama-palin debate .?!!
    oh my! no popcorn for me,
    i’d probably choke on it
    hyperventilating…

    bravo to those folks involved in stopping bullying in schools. more folks need to get involved with their school districts policies on bullying. whether they have children in school or not. the ramifications impact the whole community.

    and, on the subject of schools, there needs to be more monitoring of school districts’ hiring proceedures and fumbled background checks. don’t know how it is in other states but minnesota schools have had entirely too many coaches molesting students and teachers with child porn on their computers. in the opinion of this gramma.

  123. [...] Gay Marriage. Really? Margaret, I just don’t get it.  We’re in a global economic crisis, America ’s fighting two wars, [...] [...]

  124. I’m okay with gay marriage and I voted Obama but I also like that the woman spoke her truth. I think being okay with the fact that she spoke her truth is why I voted Obama.

  125. she thinks she lost for “speaking her mind.”

    Nope, poor Miss CA. She lost because she didn’t have enough points to take first place. Maybe she screwed up the swimsuit/pole dancing segment, or maybe her feathered boa was misplaced (on her hem), or just maybe her Hawaiian Tropic tan was a bit too. . . George Hamilton or John Boehnerish?? Whatever – the Q&A session carries the least points. And how do I know this??? sigh. Unfortunately I had a dormmate who was sooooo very involved in pageants and whenever she got drunk, anyone who even nodded slightly to her got the “pageant wave” and then the whole bitter story. . . sigh. Talk about a real downer

  126. Ummm… she thinks she was robbed of first place? I was shocked to learn that she got that far after her response. Once you stripped it of its political and social implications, it was about as intelligent as Miss Teen USA’s geography lesson. She got second place? Either all the other women had equally vapid responses or the Q&A session just don’t count for much. Couldn’t she have found a local Toastmaster’s meeting? Sheesh!

    MAYBE because she insulted Perez she lost the crown, but the hell was he doing judging a beauty contest anyway? What qualifications does one need? And what the hell did she expect when she responded. Does she know what Perez Hilton DOES for a living? And that’s assuming that NONE of the other contestants said or did anything to alienate any of the other judges. Look, I participated in TALENT competitions (BIG FRIGGIN’ DIFFERENCE) and I sure knew that it wasn’t a good idea to piss of the judges. I’m SURE she had to have known who the judging panel was going to be. So, her damn fault for not being prepared. I’ll bet you she wasn’t the only one against “opposite” marriage amongst the contestants…she’s just the only one who leapt willingly into an opportunity to make a public spectacle of herself.

    Oh, and she thinks she lost for “speaking her mind.” Oh, THAT doesn’t sound bitter and childish AT ALL. Miss Congeniality she ain’t. NONE of the other contenstants are touching her with a 10 ft pole, notice?

    “Lost?” Who even KNOWS who won the contest this year or ANY year, Miss USA or Miss America, unless they make an ass out of themselves or are Heather Whitestone?

    Check out all the posts on her Miss USA site.

    http://www.missuniverse.com/missusa/members/profile/220

    It’s over. Obama won. You think slapping up another empty-headed beauty queen is going to sway the American public? Getcha popcorn for the Palin-Obama debate. That will be PRICELESS.

  127. I don’t care how a beauty queen answers her pagent question. Or who purchased her boobs or who she slept with along the way. And her answer, as lame as it was, was her opinion and she is entitled to have one.

    HOWEVER when she chose to hook up with the hate group and star in their ad campaign she became a spokesperson and put herself smack dab in the middle and now it’s game on. She can no longer claim she is the vitim of the big bad media and perez hilton… Game on…..

    L0RBE

  128. Me thinks Emeril ought to recognize his own sexual inadequacy. I don’t believe people who are comfortable with their own sex lives particularly care about what other people “need” in that department. Sorry Em–you gotta be pretty lame.

  129. Miss CA so desperately wants to be in the spotlight and she’s willing to be used by these right wing freaks. OMG can you imagine a Palin / Prejean ticket in 2012? Talk about fancy pagent walking…

  130. BAM! That’s my hand slapping Emeril upside the head for his misogynist statement! Asshat.

    Easier: IF HE IS THE CREATOR OF ALL, HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL. Amen! And God don’t make mistakes. So stick that in your pipe or on your sacrificial alter all you fundies and evangelical boneheads. Got a problem with homosexuality? Then take it up with your God.

    And James – we all be victims on this bus. . .that’s basically the message from that guy you were writing about – only he’s a bigger victim than that “other guy” until of course a bigger victim comes along. . .sigh. It’s a food chain attached to a poor poor me pity train.

  131. Oh and Emeril. That was uncalled for.

  132. Really Sherri? Now we are going to fight with the ones who are supporting us? Really? Don’t we have enough enemies already? I’ve been in a realtionship with my partner for 13 years. I’ll take whatever support I can get because according the to the law the children belong to her regardless of how long we have been together.

  133. Me thinks Sherri needs to get over it… or at least get laid.

  134. Based on the few negative posts on this one, it seems that even the Repubs don’t want anything to do with Miss Prejeans. Could this finally be the death of this stupid issue? Let’s hope…

  135. Gay man here. Sherri, I think you are reading too much into what is merely a metaphor. “In the bedroom” refers to sex, yes. But the idea here is that the only thing different between heterosexuals and homosexuals is who the “sexual” is with. Staying out of the bedroom simply means what concenting adults are doing in the privacy of their own home (assumes your not having sex in public) is nobody’s business. I have been in a relationship for 10 years. We have one child. Our sex life is not what it used to be, but when it does happen it usually happens in the bedroom and the type of sex that happens in my bedroom is homosexual in nature as opposed to my neighbor’s bedroom which tends to host the heterosexual variety. Honestly – just a metaphor and nothing more. It certainly isn’t demeaning to anyone’s realtionship – hetero or homo or other…

  136. Helen, glad you are back and in good form. Respect for other humans is what it is all about for me. The right simply likes to speak from both ends of the mouth and getting worse at it everyday. I wonder who really conferred with God about the gay issue. Did He create gays or not, just like He did straights? If He did, then He should not deny the result of His creation. Why would He want to deny them the same rights everybody else enjoys? We attribute to God biases that He should not have, if you really think about it. IF HE IS THE CREATOR OF ALL, HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL.

    HoneyJoRumples, thanks for being involved in regard to the bullyng issue. My son was mercilessly teased at school for years because the kids decided that he was gay. After the decision was made, he had no choice in the matter. The teachers could do nothing for him, the school administrators could do nothing. We told him he could not fight at school, which limited his options. So he took it all in, in silence. When somebody saw the message he had scrawled on a piece of paper about “hating himself” as a result of being unable to defend himself against the bullying, he was promptly reported to the principal’s office. He was made to go to a psychiatrist, had to be put on medication. I was afraid for many years he would suffer the faith of the two young men that recently killed themselves. I am still afraid because this bullying he suffered has defined him in so many ways. He does not trust people. These children, who think they are just having fun at somebody’s expense do not realize what havoc they create in people’s lives.
    This issue is dear to my heart. I thank you for being involved. I hope many more people get involved. I hope parents raise their children to be respectful of other children. It should really come from the home. I also hope that school officials take the issue seriously. It is worse than they think it is.

  137. My partner and I have been in love and in a committed relationship for 23 years and I can tell you that the only “swinging from a chandelier” that happens around here is when I loose my balance trying to change a light bulb. it’s too bad it is not referred to as “same gender relationship”. Our marriage is the same as any heterosexual relationship. We mow the lawn, dust the furniture, feed the cat, go to work, call my grandkids, go to bed and sleep, wake up and go to work five days a week. In other words..mundane. When we got married last year in CA we had no intention of over throwing the government or destroying marriage as we all know it. We only had the intention of publicly declaring our commitment to each other and sharing our joyous relationship with our friends and family…like everybody else. Thank you for the opportunity to express my views. By the way, my partner is from another country and the ONLY way we could stay together is for her to become a full time student, which meant she couldn’t return to her country to see her family for five years at one point. The only other way for her to get a green card (that is, become a legal resident) was to enter an immigration lottery. She did that for 16 years and was finally granted that honor. So only now is she here permanently. Had she not gotten that card we would have been forced apart, or I would have to move away from my family and live in her country where we could legally get married. Had we been different genders all we would have had to do was get married and she could have stayed in America for the rest of our lives. Now, after many trials and tribulations and tears we are together until our dying breaths.

  138. That leads to Dems Opportunity as gay marriage acceptance grows.

    WASHINGTON – Gay marriage legalization in several states and the public’s growing acceptance of same-sex unions have Democrats sensing political opportunity and some Republicans re-evaluating their party’s hard-line opposition to an issue that long has rallied its base.

    With congressional elections next year, Republicans, Democrats and nonpartisan analysts say the changes benefit Democrats and disadvantage Republicans.

    Δ

  139. Stir in Sarah Palin
    (and a box of rocks)

    Δ

  140. Stir in Sarah Palin
    (and a box of rocks)

    Δ

  141. I remember Anita Bryant. A friend of mine met her when he was in the Army. She used to sell orange juice didn’t she?

  142. I forgot to share this. I live near an Indian reservation, and some of our neighbors are part Indian. On Thursday night, we attended a county economic betterment and awards banquet where a man, who is an Indian and I both got awards.

    He said he couldn’t understand why blacks whine about discrimination when their own countrymen sold them into slavery. They live better than they would in Africa. The real victims are Indians. Blacks vote racially for Democrats, so the government hands them jobs through affirmative action. Bias and prejudice is still alive.

  143. Anita who? is now the question in Florida :)
    Someday someone will ask Prejean who?

  144. Evolution of Miss California:

    First we had Anita Bryant

    Δ

  145. The Miss California Evolution.

    First we had Anita Bryant

    Then we add Sarah Palin
    (and a box of rocks)

    That leads to Dems: Opportunity as gay marriage acceptance grows.

    WASHINGTON – Gay marriage legalization in several states and the public’s growing acceptance of same-sex unions have Democrats sensing political opportunity and some Republicans re-evaluating their party’s hard-line opposition to an issue that long has rallied its base.

    With congressional elections next year, Republicans, Democrats and nonpartisan analysts say the changes benefit Democrats and disadvantage Republicans.

    Δ

  146. I don’t know if Miss California lost the title because of her views, and I don’t care. I didn’t see the show, and if she was vapid, isn’t that a synonym for beauty contests?

    Miss California would have gone home muttering “wait till next year,” had not Prez Hilton and some of the crowd made an issue of it. They in effect told her opinions like hers are unacceptable in their form of group think. The press and advocates of both sides ran with it and used Miss California as their prop.

    That is why Miss California became an issue. Political correctness soldiers tried to marginalize her because of her views and for no other reason. The only issue for me on this matter is free speech.

    I wish you were right Jean, about this being the last issue of discrimination, but it isn’t. I think we are born to discriminate because in the past it helped us survive. We can intellectually stop ourselves, but it comes out in other ways. We must be vigilant.

    One thing we know for certain is Miss California has a nice story to tell her children some day.

  147. Poor Miss California!

    It was said somewhere, “…when I was a child, I spoke as a child, I thought as a child, I reasoned as a child, but when I grew up, I put aside childish things.” (Thank you, Paul) Miss California is still a child. My prayer is that as she grows and experiences life, she will put aside her childish ways; that she will have a greater understanding of life and love, of the cruel effects and punishments our limited thinking has on others, and that maybe, just maybe, she will understand that her limited vision of God’s love is a human foible and not a fundamental truth.

  148. Hi Sherri,

    Well said!!! As a married woman of 56 years, I can attest to the fact that you have to get OUT of bed sooner or later. And you had better have something going in the relationship besides whatever does or does not go on in the bedroom.
    It’s called love.

    I never have been able to imagine meeting someone and after the ‘How do you dos’, asking, “What is your sexual orientation?” C’mon.

    This so-called ‘issue’ is the last bastion of discrimination. Informed people have fairly well gotten over racial, religious, ethnic, cultural and political discrimination. Unfortunately, a few people seem to have to have a ‘Group du Jour’ to beat up on.

    For heaven’s sake,let’s all grow up!

    Aloha!

    Jean

  149. Hey there I AGREE!

    Take a look at my blog:

    http://drmyers.wordpress.com/2009/04/24/torture-pirates-beauty-just-another-week/

    Also, I would like to blogroll you…would that be ok???

  150. IMHO, Miss California lost the crown not for her vapid answer to Hilton’s politically charged question (i mean c’mon, since when did a beauty pageant become the bastion of political and theological knowledge?) but for her sheer stupidity – It was so glaring that they had to dim to stage lights to offset the blinding impact on the audience. Look, it’s a beauty pageant – it’s a T&A wiggle waggle sashay flaming baton show that has nothing to do with scholarship, brains, or political correctness and EVERYTHING to do with matching the Plastic Barbie standards of American beauty.

  151. I am a hetrosexual married man who has had gay friends in the past. My wife and I have two lesbian friends who hope to get married this summer. I support gay marriage. My family, not so much. They are ambivalent.

    I don’t see anything wrong with Miss California’s opposing gay marriage, and I didn’t like Perez Hilton’s later insults. Opponents of California’s proposition 8 behaved like bullies, which is their right, but the other side also has a right to push back.

    Marriage is both a business contract and a religious sacrament. It is one of civilization’s oldest foundations. You cannot expect people who have for generations been raised that God sanctioned marriage between a man and a woman to suddenly accept something different. Personal salvation is at stake for many.

    Muslims have a much harsher view than Christians do. In Iran, for instance, some young men have been forced into sex change surgery to stay alive. Others have been stoned.

    I don’t believe most opponents are bigots any more than the other side is. They are watching eternal verities crumble, and in their view, it is ungodly. This debate will play out painfully for a long time.

    The business side of marriage belongs to the state for regulation. A couple who loves and puts up with each other for decades deserves the same rights and obligations no matter what their gender. The state has a right to declare anyone it wants to be legally married. The church has a right to recognize who is married and who is not according to its doctrine. A couple can go to another church one doesn’t recognize their marriage. It happens to hetrosexual legally married couple on occasion. They are still married in the eyes of the state, at least in Iowa and Vermont.

    It may take a generation or two, but I think most Americans will come to accept gay marriage in time. Once we have crossed that line, I wonder about polygamy and polyandry. Lawyers in the US and Canada are exploring that option and may bring suit some day.

    The size of government and support or rejection of gay marriage are two different issues. One can support small government and still oppose gay marriage or vis versa

  152. Go here.
    http://www.commondreams.org/print/41520

    Read this and feel better.

  153. I only want to ask Annette “So what is wrong with having so many pretty women around?” My wife is pretty, and I certainly don’t mind that. I know more pretty liberal woman than pretty conservative women.

    As to the rest of this, I think we are preaching to the choir (98% of us here, that is) about this issue. Most of us are for love and strong relationships, no matter who is involved with whom. So I really don’t have a lot to add.

    Happy, happy, joy, joy.

    D in D

  154. What gets me is that the conservatives who can’t seem to quit yapping about “smaller government” want the biggest, meanest government there is, when it comes to mandating other people’s medical and marital decisions. It’s fine with those guys if their representatives spend all their time posturing about abortion and gay marriage and never get around to the budget, or health care, or getting us out of Iraq, or whatever. By golly those sinners have got to have their butts kicked into line!

    The thing I find irritating about Miss Cali-bimbo is that every news story seems to include the line that “her answer might have cost her the crown.” Wow, those homo activists are really all powerful! She lost the crown for sticking up for her Bronze Age beliefs! Oh, the horror!

    Plus, she lied about being told to siddown and shaddup after the contest, and she ducked the issue of the organizers having paid for her boob job (now she’s a triple boob, I guess) and generally behaved just like those other stalwart crusaders do when confronted with inconvenient facts.

    Miss Plastic Fantastic will have her 15 mins of fame and then even the neocons will get sick of her.

  155. President Obama’s
    Weekly Address 5/2/09

    Δ

  156. “Do you know only 16 states have anti-bullying legislation, making it an offense to bully students (for any reason) in schools? That’s my social justice issue soapbox of the moment. I spent this past Tuesday in Albany lobbying legislators to pass anti-bullying legislation in NY State. The bill has been on the floor for four years, but it hasn’t even passed the Assembly yet.”

    God bless you, Sherri. that’s also a soapbox issue of mine, but I haven’t known how to get as involved. Thank you for your good work, sincerely.

  157. I for one am not picking on Miss California because she’s against gay marriage. I’m not “picking” on her at all. Merely pointing out the fact that the main issue, for me, is NOT her stance on gay marriage at all. It has to do with the fact that her answer to Perez Hilton’s question did not even directly answer his question. She never said whether she thought other states should follow suit and why or why not (should a ban be federal vs. states’ rights, etc. She never answered). Her answer was emotionally immature, as most of us learn by age 15 that saying “No offense!” after an offensive, insulting comment does not make the comment go away. Her answer contained a very galring, and actually rather embarrassing factual error, as we do NOT live in a land where we’re free to choose same sex marriage or “opposite” marriage, whatever that is. If she would have stepped out of the tanning bed long enough to read a newspaper or watch the news, she would have known that gay people are NOT free to marry who they love, that’s what they’re fighting for, the freedom to choose. That factual error showed such a distressing lack of knowledge and awareness of the issue that it alone should have been enough for her to have lost the crown. the reason Miss USA contestants are asked these questions is for them to demonstrate they know a little about the world around them. She failed by making that remark.

    In addition, let’s be honest. The quiz portion of the contest is all about political correctness. Whether it be about abortion, the space program, the war, whatever, the good contestant is supposed to give an answer that the majority of mainstream Americana can stand up and cheer for. Even if her opinion differs from a segment of the population, there was still a way for her to have been honest and true to her beliefs and still have been diplomatic. Diplomacy is probably something Miss USA should be good at even just a little bit. But to stand there and say “I don’t think you have the right to know love, to share your life with a trustworthy companion, and you deserve a lifelong sentence of solitary confinement and to die alone like a dog” to a judge that holds the crown you want in his hands, is not only undiplomatic, but just plain stupid.

  158. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/01/miss-californias-breast-i_n_194385.html

    The pageant folks aren’t happy with Miss CA, so they announced that she’d had breast implants-and that the pageant committee paid for them.

    I’m from VT and we still have people writing letters to the editor about how wrong “gay marriage’ is, even though our legislature calls them “civil marriages,” so the homophobic churches won’t have to perform marriage ceremonies for same sex couples.

  159. Brava, Sophronia and Donna…..and thank you for your understanding and support!

    Greytdog Δ, that is my point exactly! Perhaps if I didn’t spend so much time working for marriage equality…and for other social justice issues…I MIGHT have time for sex! :o)

    Do you know only 16 states have anti-bullying legislation, making it an offense to bully students (for any reason) in schools? That’s my social justice issue soapbox of the moment. I spent this past Tuesday in Albany lobbying legislators to pass anti-bullying legislation in NY State. The bill has been on the floor for four years, but it hasn’t even passed the Assembly yet.

    Those who consistently vote no on the bill want the words “sexual orientation” and “gender identity expression” taken out of the bill. In other words, they would pass anti-bullying legislation as long as it remains okay to bully students who identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. Which makes it okay — or at least a non-punishable offense — to call students derogatory names such as qu**r, f*g, d*ke, etc. — or to emotionally torment them or physically harm them based on their sexual identity.

    How appalling is it that our elected officials WILL NOT pass anti-bullying legislation period?? How appalling that we must take out protection for a minority of students in order to protect the majority???

    In the past two months, two eleven-year-old boys hanged themselves b/c they were repeatedly called f*g and qu**r at school….words I hear used DAILY by both students and adults in the middle school where I teach.

    Is it 1949?? C’mon, America…we can do better than this!

  160. Brava, Sophronia and Donna…..and thank you for your understanding and support!

    Greytdog Δ, that is my point exactly! Perhaps if I didn’t spend so much time working for marriage equality…and for other social justice issues…I MIGHT have time for sex! :o)

    Do you know only 16 states have anti-bullying legislation, making it an offense to bully students (for any reason) in schools? That’s my social justice issue soapbox of the moment. I spent this past Tuesday in Albany lobbying legislators to pass anti-bullying legislation in NY State. The bill has been on the floor for four years, but it hasn’t even passed the Assembly yet.

    Those who consistently vote no on the bill want the words “sexual orientation” and “gender identity expression” taken out of the bill. In other words, they would pass anti-bullying legislation as long as it remains okay to bully students who identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. Which makes it okay — or at least a non-punishable offense — to call students derogatory names such as queer, fag, dyke, etc. — or to emotionally torment them or physically harm them based on their sexual identity.

    How appalling is it that our elected officials WILL NOT pass anti-bullying legislation period?? How appalling that we must take out protection for a minority of students in order to protect the majority???

    In the past two months, two eleven-year-old boys hanged themselves b/c they were repeatedly called fag and queer at school. I teach in a middle school, and I hear these words DAILY…used by both students and adults.

    Is it 1949?? C’mon, America…we can do better than this!

  161. After California’s proposition 8 won (returning that state to its former non-gay marriage status), I had a feeling this issue would be tackled elsewhere in the country. I believe that state by state, the ban on gay marriage will be challenged and in some states, overturned (like Iowa and Vermont so far).

  162. Sherri–that was an absolutely terrific post. While I am a heterosexual woman, I have gay and lesbian family members and friends with committed relationships, some of which are marriages–all of which are multi-faceted, deeply caring, and constructive. I have always winced at the “who cares what happens in someone else’s bedroom?” lines but never really understood why. Thank you for stating it so clearly. To me, the question should be “who would deny another person the right to the relationship of his or her choice?”

  163. Sex? Who has time time anymore?

  164. Helen! Its so good to hear from you. I hope you are doing well. I love to read your posts. You speak with a clear voice. Margaret, I hope this day finds you well.

    Miss Prejean is working as a spokesperson for the National Organization for Marriage, not the Republican party. I don’t know if this group is funded by the Repubs or maybe the Mormons, or another group or groups. Perhaps someone else does know?

    Also, Miss Prejean has had breast augmentation surgery, funded, I believe by the Miss California Pageant.

    Also, she has been quoted as believing the story about the young Columbine victim who confessed her belief in God before being shot dead. This story has proved to be incorrect.

    I am not sure what these facts mean exactly, except that newsbites, like soundbites, seldom lead us to understand the entire story. It seems to me that Perez Hilton is a one issue guy, in the same way as the opponents of abortion are. Please correct my impression if I am wrong.

    Sherry, thank you for your post. You make an excellent point. A successful marriage or union is so much more than its sexual component. We have allowed the opponents of gay marriage to define the terms of how we think of this issue.

  165. Even worse – Congress tackling the immense problem of college football playoffs!! Those people should never win reelection!!

  166. I think they are trying to rally what polls show is an ever diminishing base. People are even beginning to redefine themselves not merely by party but by religion. Fewer people now define themselves as Evangelical or fundamental Christians. In one poll the number of Christians is even dropping which has me looking forward eagerly to the 2010 census.

    I think there is definitely a run it up the flagpole and see who salutes movement in the Republicans these days. And who knows maybe they will stumble upon that one issue to the exclusion of all others that they can flog to death.

    But if you go by Maslow’s Hierarchy people first need to be fed and feel secure before they are reachable. So we need food and money. Show us the money.

  167. Let me do a bit of educating here:

    I’m a lesbian. My partner and I have been together for 14 years. We are activists for marriage equality for same-sex couples because it is morally, ethically, socially, civically, and spiritually the right thing to do. It is THE civil rights issue of this generation.

    However, as a gay person, I find it offensive when posters say, “Who cares what people do in their bedrooms?”….”butt out of other people’s bedroom business”…”the govt is sure spending a lot of time in other people’s bedrooms”…etc.

    When you make comments such as these, you are doing the same thing the conservatives, fundamentalists, right-wing politicians, & bible thumpers are doing…..you denigrate my 14-year relationship to nothing but sex.

    Let me tell you, as every couple who has been together for 14 years would say, I WISH we had more time & energy for more sex! But the truth is, that is only one facet of the thousands of facets that make up our relationship. In fact, we spend only a small percentage of our time together having sex, and if (god forbid) something happened to one of us that physically prevented us from ever having sex again, we would STILL be together and we would STILL be fighting for marriage equality.

    So if you are one of those using the argument, “Who cares what people do in their bedrooms” then PLEASE educate yourself and start using a better argument, because you, too, are guilty of devaluing our relationships and confining us to the bedroom.

  168. emuleman:
    Helen’s not referring to Perez asking the initial question at the pageant, but to the round of conservative, right-wing talk shows, radio shows, and news programs Prejean has been ever since where they have been perseverating on this one topic. And, yes, the RP has made Prejean their spokesperson. They’ve even asked her if she would be interested in running for political office. Numerous times. Right now, they are a one-issue party…this is the issue that is uniting them like nothing we’ve seen since they ousted prayer in public schools and fought Roe v. Wade…and they are salivating over Prejean’s uneducated, biased stance on this issue.

    Nobody’s picking on Prejean…although tens of millions of people ARE saying perhaps she should educate herself on the issue before she blindly spouts off her religious biases that have NOTHING to do with civil rights issues.

  169. Heavens. I’m too busy admiring Obama’s calm and collected mien to pay attention to the blatherings of Miss California. Isn’t he something?

    And did you catch Rush Limbaugh telling McCain to join Specter in leaving the Republican party? Specter didn’t leave the party – the party left him!

  170. does anyone really care what the opinions of beauty queens are? I haven’t watched one of those things in years and couldn’t say who has been a queen or runner up in years.
    Karen
    http://karensquilting.com/blog/

  171. Well, it worked for Anita Bryant…. :::heavy sigh:::

  172. when it is pretty……….the brains disappear! they don’t care what comes out of her mouth.

  173. See Jesus General for a
    good post on this subject:

    The Opinion Gay Marriage is a threat to the sanctity of Not-Gay Marriage has died as a result of having tripped over a bottle of scotch, a baggie of crystal meth, a racing form, combat boots, a loofah, that cute girl next door who is recently back from college, gonads that produce 250,000 spermatazoan Americans every day, a mounting pile of debt in the middle of the goddamn room, a foreclosure notice, peak oil, a canceled health insurance notice, a broken set of communication skills, an empty Altoids tin, a pile of VHS tapes, a rogue angry bear and a piping hot cup of shut the f*ck up–the Opinion ultimately striking its head on a coffee table and bleeding to death on the living room floor. By the time Gay Marriage came by to threaten the sanctity of the Not-Gay Marriage it was too late. Efforts to revive the Not-Gay Marriage were met with Fear and Suspicion, who had stopped by for reasons of their own.

    The Opinion, based largely on interpretations of the writings of Semitic priests whose main purpose was to make sure young Jewish males didn’t schtupp every single tookis that wasn’t nailed shut, had been self-medicating for the past 2,500 years.

    Read the rest here.

    Δ

  174. The Opinuary Column

    Where ‘opinions’ go to die:

    The Opinion Gay Marriage is a threat to the sanctity of Not-Gay Marriage has died as a result of having tripped over a bottle of scotch, a baggie of crystal meth, a racing form, combat boots, a loofah, that cute girl next door who is recently back from college, gonads that produce 250,000 spermatazoan Americans every day, a mounting pile of debt in the middle of the goddamn room, a foreclosure notice, peak oil, a canceled health insurance notice, a broken set of communication skills, an empty Altoids tin, a pile of VHS tapes, a rogue angry bear and a piping hot cup of shut the fuck up–the Opinion ultimately striking its head on a coffee table and bleeding to death on the living room floor. By the time Gay Marriage came by to threaten the sanctity of the Not-Gay Marriage it was too late. Efforts to revive the Not-Gay Marriage were met with Fear and Suspicion, who had stopped by for reasons of their own.

    The Opinion, based largely on interpretations of the writings of Semitic priests whose main purpose was to make sure young Jewish males didn’t schtupp every single tookis that wasn’t nailed shut, had been self-medicating for the past 2,500 years.

    ~ more ~

    Δ

  175. Amen, Helen, Amen!

  176. Another humorous post from M&H

    Helen, you are certainly right. Anything to take away from the real issues that are of concern today. I am sure that Perez Hilton and Carrie Prejean are enjoying their new celebrity status. Frankly, I think Hilton was out of order with his question as was Prejean with her answer on a public platform but rely on the media to run with the story. As Helen said, if she had been Miss Arkansas it wouldn’t have gotten the attention.

    When I first heard the story I thought “what is Paris Hilton up to now?” :-)

    Now the whole world knows who these two characters are. It doesn’t take much to get famous these days, does it?

    Now back to the swine flu panorama. Egypt certainly went into overkill. Does any one know the statistics of how many people died last year from the common flu?

  177. Happy May Day Margaret and Helen! ;-)

    I mean it, really. *G*

  178. Do you think they’re trying to divert attention?

    I’m all for a little light entertainment in these grim times – was Miss California funny?

  179. @erica – you’d be most welcome in Canada!

    A great Canadian once said: The State has no place in the bedrooms of the nation.

  180. So shall we all plan on moving to Canada in four years? :P

  181. Quit picking on opinions? Really? So if your opinion is that black people and white people shouldn’t get married, well, we shouldn’t pick on your bigotry?

    Seriously? We shouldn’t pick on a homophobic idiot with a public forum… are you serious?

    I mean really? Are you serious? Because at this point anyone opposing the marriage of two consenting adults is just a meddlesome busybody homophobe. Is that what you are?

    Ridiculous.

    As is the Rebulican’t Party sticking it’s nose into the control of my body (abortion), the control of my religion (intelligent design in the classroom), the control of government regulation of greedy people on Wall Street (hence the economic meltdown) in addition to the control of my home life and happiness (marriage), I find that I must speak out against the party that CLAIMS to be for the freedom of people, the party of “responsibility,” the party of conservative morals…

    How moral is it to steal people’s retirement funds so that you can get a *retention* bonus for $10 million dollars.

    If you aren’t a multi millionaire and you are still a member of the republican’t party, then you are a silly, silly fool. You are seriously brainwashed. You are paying for the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer.

    You are definitely a fool.

  182. I wonder if in 20 years from now we will be talking about the former republican party and how it became so irrelevant, it died a slow painful death.

    For a party that wants no government oversite, they sure are spending lots of time in people’s bedrooms and doctor’s offices

  183. Oh, God, Palin and Peejean? Help us!

  184. emuleman clearly you haven’t been paying attention

  185. to emuleman –
    Hilton asked a question – the republican conservatives – (but I repeat myself), jumped at the chance to use her as their spokesbimbo.

    And she’s using – or misusing, (remember the big boobie beauty queen people aren’t happy she’s doing this) – a public platform to promote the denial of equal rights – and that’s wrong.

  186. Quote:
    And yet, the conservatives out there want to talk about gay marriage with Miss California

    It was Perez Hilton, one of the judges that asked Miss California the question about Gay marriage. He certainly isn’t a conservative, he is a gay celebrity reporter. What does that have to do with conservatives?

    Quote:
    So the Republican party has another washed up beauty queen as its spokesperson

    Huh? Now the Republican party has made Miss California a spokesperson? Exactly where did you get that information? Because she answered the question based on her beliefs doesn’t automatically make her a spokesperson for the Republicans.

    I personally really don’t care who ever wants to get married, as long as they both agree it is fine with me, we have other more important things to worry about, as you mention.

    Maybe we should quit picking on a young lady who answered a question as honestly and true to her beliefs, we all do not have to agree with her. That is what makes this country great, we can agree to disagree. We do however should not pick on people who don’t share our views.

  187. Let’s HOPE that Palin runs in 2012!!! It will GUARANTEE Obama a second term!!! (I mean, she is sooooooo seriously stupid that no one in their right mind would vote for her… as evidenced by the implosion of the Rebulican’t party).

  188. Welcome back!

    Now you fine ladies should know by now that any conservative worth their salt doesn’t care about anything unless it involves them getting to play the victim.

    Yeesh, a Palin/Prejean ticket. How could so much stupid fit in one room?

  189. Sad but true. I agree w/Emilia – who the f cares who other people marry or have wild, swinging from the chandelier sex with? Oh, wait, I forgot. Jesus cares. Yeah, right. And the Pope smokes crack. Like Oprah said today (yup, I tuned in to see the ever-gorgeous Hugh Jackman, and boy am I glad I did!), we used to not be able to marry people from different religions or – blasphemy! – different races. Same sex marriage is the last big hurdle in the fight for human rights. I love our pres., but I do wish he’d stand up a little straighter (no pun intended) on this one.

  190. God help us if Palin gets on the 2012 ticket.

  191. They have to have their pretty women to keep the old, fat white men happy.. and in line with what they want. How better to make sure than to keep a constant stream of young pretty women?

  192. I’ll be outside building a bunker. you know, just in case Palin wins in 2012, which would be in itself the end of the world as we know it.

    anyway sweet baby jesus why can’t people just butt OUT of other peoples bedroom business??? I swear republicans are all really just a bunch of secret perverts o.O

  193. A little OT but brought tears to my eyes…

    Doggie Domino is found :)

  194. It’s easier to focus the lemmings on the T&A of Prejean than on the real issues facing this country/the world.

    And I agree with Andy – would love your input on the retirement of David Souter and the choices for the next appointment to SCOTUS

  195. Thanks for the post! We sure could use your wisdom/commentary more often.

    I am anxious to hear your thoughts about the Republican party’s re-branding efforts. Or… more seriously your thoughts about the next appointment to the U.S. Supreme Court.

    Stay well and god bless you!


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