Posted by: Helen Philpot | November 11, 2008

The View Needs Glasses (Prop 8)

Ignorance is bliss… unless we are talking about someone else’s ignorance.  And in this case we are.  I will be the first to admit that my talking about gay marriage – or gay anything – is like Sarah Palin musing on the global ramifications of power struggles in the Middle East.  It will most likely be a Katie Couric moment but here we go…

If marriage is an institution supported by this country then it must be made available to all of its citizens according to the law.  If however, it is strictly a religious institution then a constitutional amendment determining who can and cannot have access to it is sort of missing the point.  Religious freedom except for people who are not religious is a mutually exclusive concept.  And if we keep going down this path the concept of a Christ-like Christian will become an oxymoron.  And speaking of moron…

I have had it with The View and I blame Barbara Walters.  First she allows Elisabeth to be the voice of fear and war and then magically on Wednesday after the election all of it is immediately forgotten and forgiven. It is painfully obvious that Elisabeth’s opinions are not her own but rather the talking points being given to her to fit the part.  OK.  I don’t like it but I can excuse it because Elisabeth comes by her hate honestly.  She knows exactly what she is doing and in her world being young, blonde and married to a football star gives her permission to be a bitch.  What does she care?  Her children will be able to buy their way out of any problem.  By the way, Harold says she’s not married to the good football player… his brother is the good one.  I wouldn’t know.  I just know the football player who married Elisabeth went for a Hail Mary pass and ended up with just a pass to hell.

But now we’ve got that Cherry, Cheryl, Seymour… I really don’t care what her name is. Yesterday she admitted that while she does have an issue with gay marriage for spiritual reasons, she really wasn’t sure about all the facts and hadn’t really read much about it.  Oh, but the idiot did mention that she was still looking for the perfect gravy boat for Ellen and Portia.  OK.  You know what?  When you are given a national platform on a TV show called The View, being too lazy to do some research isn’t an acceptable excuse.   And when people’s rights are being taken away, your attempt at humor is insulting.  I’m sure Ellen found the gravy boat comment comforting.  Try opening a newspaper between reruns of Friends you lazy good for nothing because the show you are a part of is supposedly about well-informed, intelligent women discussing current issues.  Little Cheryl having a vagina suggests that one out of three is qualification enough.  She is making women everywhere look bad and Barbara Walters should have a little more respect for her audience than to allow this to go on any longer.

I haven’t had a whole lot to say about this issue because to be quite honest, I come from a generation that really never talked about it. But then Margaret’s nephew reminded me that lots of people are reading this blog so I need to educate myself.

It seems to me that the loudest Christians have suddenly become the most un-Christ-like people.  And my sincere apologies to those good-hearted Christians who have found themselves caught in the crosshairs.  You know, Harold is a Catholic.  How would all of you feel about a constitutional amendment banning meat on Fridays?  How about banning dancing because Baptist seem to have two left feet?  And how about birth control?  A lot of religions don’t allow it.  I wonder how little Cherry from The View would feel about a constitutional amendment banning that? 

If you want to protect Holy Wedlock, by all means padlock the church door whenever guys who love Judy Garland come-a-knocking.  But if you want to protect marriage push for a constitutional amendment to ban divorce.

But let’s step away from the church and state argument for a second.  I posted yesterday that love is about the heart not the body.  Trust me, if it was about the body a lot of us would be in a world of trouble.  You can’t legislate love between two consenting adults.  You just can’t no matter how hard you try.  If you want to save marriage, marry someone you love.   And that’s all I have to say about that.

We are working on something new for this blog that we hope you will like.  Until then, thanks for stopping by.  I mean it.  Really.

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  76. Welcome to all the new “wedgies” (fans of Margaret & Helen) – that’s the great thing about this front porch blog – a chance to share and learn from each other.

  77. Oh Helen I can’t tell you how much your blog is coming to mean to me, but you are who I hope to be in 60 years. I am not gay, nor am I an American, but it makes me so happy to hear someone state so succinctly everything that has saddened me about Prop 8.

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  78. I’ve already commented, but for those late to the party, one of the best answers to the hate-mongers who voted for Prop. 8 is the Jack Black online musical on http://www.funnyordie.com. Turn on your speakers and prepare to laugh. Here’s the link:

  79. I did a post like this about two weeks ago on my blog. I took a couple great photos at the recent protest in Sacramento (that is where I live). There were a few very clever signs.

  80. if gay people get less rights does that mean we get to pay less tax?

    also; marriage was around long before christianity, in fact, since neolithic times; it has been adopted into religious instiutions, but isn’t JUST religious.

  81. Brava, Madame Philpot. Brava!

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  84. [...] within the judicial system and now are creeping up all over. Prop 8 is a great example. The Margaret and Helen blog stated the dilemma very succinctly : “If marriage is an institution supported by this country [...]

  85. As a 56 year old gay man who married his British partner of 16 1/2 years in Brighton, England last year where it is legal, the irony struck me that there I was an American, from the country (America) which, the British people traveled to and formed, to escape the bonds of religious persecution, being married because the bonds of religious persecution control the American government and restrict my ability to marry the partner of my choice. Our “Gay” relationship has statistically lasted longer than most heterosexual marriages. You and your blog rock. I thank you for making the world a bit brighter.

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  86. Elizabitch Hasselblech………….*barf*

    And Sherry “I thought the earth was flat* Shepherd………two of the most idiotic individuals on television.

  87. “If you want to save marriage, marry someone you love.” That line made me cry!
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  88. Bravo.

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  89. Thank you for another wonderful post! Your observations about Christians exhibiting un-Christianlike behavior are spot on. It has always pained me to see hateful people using their religious beliefs as an excuse for their otherwise inexcusable behaviors. A perfect example can be found in news footage of this past weekend’s protests; my personal favorite was a placard reading “Who Would Jesus Hate?” Ummm, nobody. So in addition to being inflammatory and capitalization-challenged, the sign was essentially incorrect.

    Drives me batshit! It is necessary for these fundamentalists to hide behind their unassailable religious beliefs instead of basing their opposition to gay marriage on sound reasoning subject to debate and discussion. (After all, anyone who would beat up on the little Baby Jesus can be dismissed as a heathen terrorist with the morals of an alleycat who doesn’t care about the children or the future of this country………) If a gal questions their “argument”, she must not only support her own position but defend her character as well. While it’s apparent that this is just a diversionary tactic to move attention away from the real issues and a fundamentally weak argument, it sure is hard to let being called a godless, immoral, unAmerican whore slide……

  90. Made my day. Thanks, again and again.

  91. Well stated.

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  93. Helen and Margaret, I completely ADORE you. You are SPOT ON about this Proposition 8 BLASPHEMY….!

  94. AMEN Helen!

  95. oh my god, I LOVE YOU! Will you be my adopted grandmothers?

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  97. thanks for opening some minds!

    I don’t think that homosexuality is a choice…it is exactly like having brown skin; it isn’t something you can turn on or off…it isn’t a choice. Because it isn’t a choice; you cannot discriminate against people who are homosexual. I know what the Old Testament says; but I know even better what the New Testament says and as a Christian who believes in Jesus I know I cannot judge my brothers and sisters who are homosexual. After all, the same bible was used to PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that people with brown skin were not human and could be enslaved.

    Additionally marriage is supported by religion which I think is a great thing. But it is only in the last few hundred years that marriage has become the religious event that we know today. Wedding Cake didn’t even enter the lexicon until the late 1600’s. Most “marriages” took place in living rooms not in churches. In the real old time on some occasions the Lord of the manor would “fuck” the virgin bride the night before she went to her groom. The people against gay marriage have built up this mythology around marriage which really never existed before in human civilization. Marriage is about economics nothing more. Commoners had their marriages in their living rooms to people their parent’s chose for them. The royals and wealthy married people their parents chose for them in a church because they could pay for them. The average wedding for most of the 20th Century cost less than $500.00 because most took place at the Justice of the Peace. The whole “myth” of marriage being this sacred institution is hogwash. 50% of marriages end in divorce even those that don’t end in divorce (especially in our culture where estranged couples have whole other relationships while still being married) are not examples of healthy relationships. Hell I know of folks in our class who live in their basement while their wives live upstairs. But sometimes it is cheaper to keep her…SMILE!

    Marriage is a civil institution and by laws that already exist should be a civil right for all citizens of our country. You have to go to the “STATE” to apply for a marriage license. When you want to end a marriage you have to go to the “STATE” for a decree ending a marriage. By default marriage is a civil right. You cannot deny citizens of a civil right. You can deny them a religious ceremony; but not a civil right.

    People, we can agree to disagree…but open those brains of yours and know what your civil rights are so you will understand when someone wants to take them away!

    Be Good!

  98. Just to add a purely political note, California is at the same time both the most liberal state and the one with the lowest liberal turn-out at the polls. While I won’t tell you not to point a finger at LDS, at some point California democrats need to figure out how to develop a “ground game”. LA county was particularly bad with a democratic turn out that was bad even by California standards. You get the government you deserve and if you don’t vote, this is what you get.

  99. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and the passage of Prop. 8 has personally devastated my friends and family. For some people, Prop. 8 was a good political argument; for us in California, it is our lives.

    Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon had been together for 55 years. They got married for the first time when Gavin Newsom ordered marriage licenses issued in San Francisco in 2004, and married a second time in June 2008, after the California Supreme Court declared that restricting marriage to only heterosexual couples was unconstitutional – equal protection and all that. Del Martin didn’t live to see her marriage invalidated a second time; she died at age 87, in August 2008.

    Two good friends of mine have been together for 20 years. They finally got married this September. They, too, have been told that their marriage doesn’t count.

    A new neighbor of mine moved to the Bay Area from Oregon. She and her partner got married, only to be told that they don’t count. When she saw the “No on Prop. 8″ bumper sticker on my car, she began to cry.

    Another neighbor, a straight, divorced man, approved of my bumper sticker, saying with irony “Gee, I thought my ex and I caused the breakup of my marriage” and ended with “Who cares?” Obviously, the religious right cares.

    For those who missed the link to Keith Olbermann’s Special Comment earlier, here it is again. If you don’t get a link, cut and paste it; it’s worth it:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27652443#27652443

    Whether a gay couple choose to marry outside of their church is a civil matter, not a religious one. Our state and federal constitutions not only guarantee freedom OF religion, but freedom FROM religion. And, oh yes, equal treatment under the law. Not “separate but equal” treatment, but “equal” treatment.

    Elisabeth should read the Constitution occasionally, and Sherri Shepherd should get her head out of her *** and earn her way-too-high salary. I’m sure Ellen and Portia can use her gravy boat for their tears.

  100. Just for clarification, I am not a Christian per se, I belong to SRF, although Jesus is one of the line of gurus that we honor. However, I was compelled to defend the majority of Christians who are nothing like the Evangelpolitical ones!

  101. [...] The View Needs Glasses (Margaret and Helen – I don’t believe I commented here; too easy to get lost since there are so many comments on her posts most days) [...]

  102. [...] Helen’s take on The View (yeah, Ms Hasselbeck really gets her going), religion and Prop 8: If you want to [...]

  103. Mary –

    “And since no one is hearing any Christian voices saying, “This is wrong.”,

    There are many of us who have been shouting that at the tops of our lungs for way more than the last 8 years. We aren’t as strident, negative and hateful as the “Christians” that you’ve been hearing, so we don’t get the press. Bigotry sells papers and ad time; tolerance rarely makes the news.

  104. PS I bet ctodd is lurking out there.

  105. To Jill and Gabrielle,

    Of COURSE I realize that not all Christians are alike and that once upon a time the Republican party was more about economic policy than about social issues.

    And that is exactly my point — when religion becomes a political force, it takes on a public persona, which may or may not speak for all of its members. You may totally disagree with the political stance taken, but as a member of that religion, that is how you are now perceived. That is the public voice of your religion.

    And since no one is hearing any Christian voices saying, “This is wrong.”, those who are looking on are assuming you agree with what’s going on and that you are a part of it, because you’re certainly not saying anything to the contrary in a public way.

    It is my opinion that it is a bad idea for a religion to become involved in politics. I believe that it is a harmful practice on many levels. And since churches have jumped into the political arena, maybe it’s time for them to lose their tax-exempt status. That’s all.

  106. I have also enjoyed the more-or-less civil discussion here. I can honestly say this is the only blog I follow regularly.

    Again, I will say that I’m Christian. I resent that the label has been co-opted by extremists. I do not hate Republicans – I disapprove of their policies and tactics. I don’t hate bigots, either. I dislike bigotry in all forms.

    My following argument is extreme, but bear with me.

    If, by majority vote, prop eight in CA can disenfranchise gays, and strip from them rights which they had previously enjoyed, what is protecting the rights of other minorities? Proponents of the proposition say it’s a moral and religious argument. So what’s to keep some religious group from deciding that left handed people are lesser beings because in all the depictions of the judgment day the righteous are on the right hand of God and the unrighteous are on the left hand? And maybe that because people with green eyes are a minority they must be against God’s will too? So all left handed green eyed people should be disenfranchised, if enough money is poured into ‘informing’ the voting public?

    I quote:

    When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a communist.

    When they locked up the social democrats,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.

    When they came for the trade unionists,
    I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.

    When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a Jew.

    When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out.

    Pastor Martin Niemöller, 1892-1984

    NOTE: I’m not comparing California voters to Nazis; I’m warning about the slippery slope.

  107. As always, you ladies ROCK, especially this latest entry by Helen.

    Wonderful comparison between banning eating meat on Fridays and the ban on same sex-marriage.

    You are good people and God/dess bless you!

  108. “This is the first place I have found where I have a personal opinion differing with the majority of you, and have not been called every name in the book. I continue to disagree only because of my own beliefs, but would never try to stop someone else from following their heart. ”

    I think this is a very appropriate thought…I do not think most of the people here who do support the civil right for gay marriage would attempt to change your belief system…nor would they fight to have your church recognize their civil marriage, though I believe may churches, at least on an individual basis would…just as many churches would allow ceremonies performed there, and a lot would not. I think the point is, that with the right of holding to your personal beliefs comes the responsiblity of allowing others to practice their lifes, to legally have rights even if they do not fit into your personal paradigm.

    I find it interesting that as this discussion has gone on, the UN is holding an interfaith conference where the topic is tolerance.

  109. I have to say that this is one of the best forums I have seen for the discussion of the issue of gay marriage. With the exception of a few loonies (there are always a few) this is a very civil discussion. This is the first place I have found where I have a personal opinion differing with the majority of you, and have not been called every name in the book. I continue to disagree only because of my own beliefs, but would never try to stop someone else from following their heart. My daughter played softball many years ago for a coach who was a lesbian. She was allowed to go to sleep-overs at the coaches house because we trusted her as a person. There are many hetero households where she would not have been allowed to stay over, because of the quality of people they were. In closing, I just want to comment on the photo of Margret and Helen, you two on your scooters is really cute!

  110. Helen, I will like whatever you do. Great post again. I can’t bring myself to watch The View at all anymore. Yet another right-wing rich blond and a woman who is so empty-headed she gives me a migraine. And Harold is correct; her brother-in-law is the better football player, though even he isn’t as good as he was a few years ago.

  111. I love you and I haven’t even met you. I’ve written about similar things and I’ve been made to feel ashamed…I’m too angry and too liberal for my family. Whatever. I HATE Elizabeth from The View so much that I cannot watch the show. I can’t stand the crap that comes out of her mouth.

    As for Prop 8, I agree. If you want to “protect the sanctity of marriage,” blow it out your ass. You’d have to make divorce against the constitution, and start stoning women who have affairs. I think marriage should be a right for every loving couple. The argument that if you let two men marry, then you’d have to let a man marry his dog just doesn’t fly anymore. A

    Canada, some European countries, have made it a right. We also are the only wealthy industrialized country that does not provide health care for its citizens. Why are we so behind the times?!

  112. The idea of enfranchisement in America is old and honorable. The reality or process of enfranchisement is somewhat messier… We have been careful not to re-write the Constitution nor add to it too often… We have argued whether something is best left to states or should be taken on at the national level.

    In the end, each large shift in this country to enfranchise- recognize the existence of and extend rights to-a group of people has been advanced by some balance of our hearts and minds. Purely rational arguments, untempered by compassion and humility, are sterile. Purely emotional arguments, untempered by data and observation, lead us into quicksand.

    Here, we have heard many eloquent voices call for the inclusion of yet another group of Americans we forgot to add in… even though they have always lived amongst us. I too think it is time, well past time, we stop acting like these neighbors of ours will take something from us if they are simply allowed to enjoy the rights that should go with the responsibilities they have ALREADY shouldered.

    The link below leads to a famous speech about women’s sufferage…It’s a rather long read but delightful and rational…It was not so very long ago we ladies could not vote …and had to rely on the fellows to vote for us to vote…

    http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/annashawrepublic.htm

    My grandmothers were 21 and 25 when women were first allowed to vote…The horror stories which folks delighted themselves with about how the country was going to collapse if ignorant and weak females were allowed to vote have NOT come to pass…Nor will the world or our country fall apart if our gay and lesbian neighbors allowed the kinship of marraige…

  113. God as I understand God does not make junk. I am a lesbian. I am not junk. Neither are my sisters and brothers that are gay and lesbian. Most of the religious persecution that is cast upon the gay/lesbian community and used to deny us our equal rights under the law of these United States is base on the Levitical laws of the Old Testament:

    Leviticus 18:21 (NIV): “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.”
    Leviticus 20:13 (NIV): 
”If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”

    It strikes me as odd that these two ancient laws are held up and repeated ad nauseum as justification for condemning homosexuals. If one chooses to invoke these two laws as justification for proof that homosexuals are children of a lesser God and therefore one is justified in discriminating and persecuting by denial of human rights, then you have to exercise all the other Levitical laws, too. Go on, dust off the Bible and read Leviticus, that ought to set your head to reeling about all the things that you’ll need to stop doing and/or start doing and right now, buddy.

    I would like to point out that the Levitical laws say nothing about if woman lies with woman. I feel pretty good about that (I say with a big, satisfying grin on my face). I won’t get too smug, because in Biblical times and until recently, actually, women were property and slavery was legal.

    I would also like to point out to that the Levitical laws were to be observed until the Messiah came and a new covenant would replace them. Hence, the Prince of Peace, Jesus of Nazareth, said,

    “That being the great commandment of Love in which we are to love God first and foremost and love our neighbor as we love our self.” (Matthew 22:37-40; Galatians 5:14; John 13:34: Romans 13:20)

    That is the new covenant. No long list of do’s and don’ts. Well, the Apostles had a heck of time convincing folks of this and folks were bent on mixing things up, so the Apostles spent a great deal of time writing letters and explaining stuff about the new covenant. I suppose there is still a bunch of problems with understanding the new covenant. Go figure.

    I would like to point out that Jesus did not have one thing to say about homosexuals. Not a one word. Not one. And by the way, we are all children of God, just like Jesus. He was not the only one for He said so.

    Ya’ll Love One Another. It is the Word.

  114. From the Associated Press 11-13-08:

    COLUMBIA, S.C. – A South Carolina Roman Catholic priest has told his parishioners that they should refrain from receiving Holy Communion if they voted for Barack Obama because the Democratic president-elect supports abortion, and supporting him “constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil.”

    The Rev. Jay Scott Newman said in a letter distributed Sunday to parishioners at St. Mary’s Catholic Church in Greenville that they are putting their souls at risk if they take Holy Communion before doing penance for their vote.

    Why should this church receive tax-exemption? It is clearly attempting to exert political influence upon its parishioners.

  115. I would agree that religion has no place in politics or legislation (hence that whole separation of church and state thing), but I think it is truly inaccurate, unfair, and dangerous to lump all Christians and Republicans together. In fact, we’re talking about one part of the Republican party — sadly, for other Republicans, the most vocal and powerful part right now — which is being driven by a specific group of Christians with a specific idealogy.

    The most extreme and vocal members of any group are always the ones who get the attention, and thus the ones who become the public face of the group. But in this discussion alone we’ve seen many Christians who do not hold the extreme religious right views that others here are tarring ALL Christians with. To lump all Christians together is awfully close to the kind of thinking that causes discrimination and hate crimes against random Muslims simply because of the actions of a small group of extremists.

    It’s not remotely fair to tell the Christians here that they are saddled with the burden of their more extreme brethren and they have to bear the consequences. You don’t blame intelligent blonde women for the stupid blondes that uphold the stereotype, do you?

    Compassion and understanding go both ways. We all have a basic responsibility as Americans and human beings to keep our hearts and minds open, and not to make assumtions about one person because of the actions of another.

    Love,
    A straight Jewish Democratic woman

  116. well, as a lesbyterian mother of 4, hardworking, taxpaying, community involved person, the current situation – ongoing situation – really makes me sad. but, living in a country where 55 million actually voted for mccain/ palin 4 years after 59 million voted for W, nothing surprises me.

    marriage should be no one’s business other than the two getting married and the person marrying them. and even that 3rd party should be optional. like nicole kidman in ‘cold mountain’ or the peeps in king henry and queen elizabeth’s courts, just say ‘i marry you’ and the deal is done.

    and those deals come undone just like the hetero unions.

    check this out. my partner and i were together 10 years. 2 years after we got together, the company i worked for offered me domestic partner benefits along with a promotion. that was great. then i went to work for another company and they, too, had domestic partner benefits – great ones in fact. better than that, the attitude throughout the company was truly accepting of diversity in all colors of the rainbow.

    but the system is still extremely discriminatory. if you are a man and you are hired and you sign up for benefits there is a box to check – married, single, blah blah. there is not a box for domestic partner (well, there wasn’t – there is now in some places). so when there’s not a box you’re forced to ask someone – usually by phone and after holding for half the day and being transferred from department the other half – hey how do i get these domestic partner bennies? you have to provide documentation, proof of partnership, etc. etc. it’s a pain in the arse and then, to make things even more fun, if your domestic partner actually has to use the insurance, they manage somehow to not get it right unless you pursue it for weeks or months. i’m still chasing down payment for something she had done in 2007.

    AND we’re not even together anymore. so, like i said, we come undone just like any other kind of couple and it sucks. not just the emotional aspect but you wouldn’t believe what it takes to ‘dissolve” the partnership. the “packet” i got was an inch thick. what are they going to do to someone if they don’t turn it in? refuse to not cover her if she goes in for something? hell, they’ve been doing that for the past 10 years so what difference does it make?

    there’s as much of a difference between gay marriage and hetero marriages as there is with the “divorce.” most people just don’t “get” the former.

    i’m not a christian. i believe a man named jesus lived in the middle east and did some version of what the stories say. but as one of my friends said when a woman asked her (like it was any of her business) “do you believe in jesus christ and that he was the son of god?” ‘yes m’aam’ she said, ‘but i don’t think he’s the only one.’ amen.

    but this guy jesus, just like krishna and all kinds of other spiritual leaders have said, here’s your new commandment – love one another. that’s it. love one another.

    and if jesus, for example is the all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful god that the unChristlike christians think he is, have they ever stopped to think that based on that he probably would have been able to see far enough into the future and add a caveat? like, maybe, “love one another and, by that i mean man and woman and never, never, never two people of the same sex?”

    do you know what most oxymorons you mentioned in your blog would do if this jesus dude and the people he hung out with were here today? reallY???? they would be disgusted and shun him just like they do most people who are different from them.

    that is not what his message was about.

    and people who say they follow the golden rule but swap the word “screw” for “do” are lower than the lowest low.

    family is family.

  117. Well said. You offer the perfect combination of logical and emotional in this post–funny but desperately serious. I love your point about how, if government stayed entirely out of religion, we’d have another issue. But as long as the states and the federal gov. recognize one kind of marriage, they have to recognize all types.
    Thanks for the post.

  118. You know what the real shame is? That a certain sect of Christians, the self righteous ones who think what other people do is somehow their business, have given the ones who actually “get” Jesus and what he stood for a bad name. And for that as much as anything else they have earned contempt.

    Thing is, real Christians don’t get much face time because they are doing what Jesus wanted, which is to practice their faith in private and spending their time doing things FOR others instead of AGAINST others.

    The people yapping their big mouths about how Christian they are in order to make some political point to support their own bigotry quite simply are not Christ-like at all.

    I just felt I had to say this because it is apparent there are quite a few commenters on this board who are keeping it real and they don’t need to be painted with the same broad brush. It is not fair to them to use the blanket term “Christian” to discuss the people who are clearly not, even if the latter self profess otherwise.

  119. mko,

    You raise an interesting point, while attempting to play the Christian victim. “Why is everybody mean to us? What did we do?”

    You claim that the only thing that Christians have in common is that they allo believe in Christian doctrine. Not true.

    When Christians took it upon themselves to mobilize as a voting block beginning in the 1970s (Moral Majority, Christian Coalition), they gave up any claim they had to nonpolitical innocense.

    They have been deep in bed with Republicans for 30 years, funding campaigns, registering voters, mobilizing their congregations to vote, and the like.

    When the Christians chose to enter into this affair with the Republicans, they chose the consequences and the loss of credibility that came with that action.

    Those who voted Bush into the office a second time did so knowing that he was responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi children, not to mention the innocent adults killed in the war. And this is the same group that has the audacity to vilify abortion? Give me a break!

    Sorry, but the decision to go political has cost the Christians many converts, driven others out of churches, and revealed them to be just as slimy, if not more so, than any other political group.

    So if you want credibility, get out of politics and go do what Jesus said to do: “Feed my sheep.” Spend your time and energy doing good in the world instead of working yourselves into a lather about who’s marrying whom and who’s disobeying God’s laws.

    The Christians have missed the entire point of Jesus’ teachings.

    If you want to cry “bigot!” Go ahead. The Christians have work hard to earn every bit of negative opinion they’ve received.

  120. I find it sad when people feel ashamed of who they are. Gay people should never be ashamed of themselves. If you feel ashamed of who you are the otherside has won. Be proud to be you.
    Heterosexuals are not ashamed to be heterosexual likewise homosexual should not feel shame at being homosexual.
    It is the religios fenatics and the homophobes who have ruined the lives of many with their beliefs. It was homophobes who murdered good people like Matthew Shepard. People like Matthew Shepard never took another person’s life for being who they are.
    I feel pity for those who would hate gay people sight-unseen for their sexual preference, never getting to know what wonderful people they may be.

  121. I choose my favorite ice cream flavor.

    I choose what to watch on TV.

    I choose my favorite pizza toppings.

    I do NOT choose my eye color.

    I do NOT choose my hair color.

    I do NOT choose to be gay.

    Being gay is just as inherent and natural as my brown hair and green eyes.

    Think about it…why would anyone CHOOSE to be the recipient of so much exclusion, fear, hatefulness, discrimination, misunderstanding, intolerance, unacceptance, and bigotry?

    The interesting thing about discrimination is that throughout history, discrimination has almost always been against people who cannot choose the quality/characteristics for which they are being discriminated against…race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality.

    Most readers of this site ARE supportive & accepting. I post here in the hopes that my insights might give you educated, well-informed talking points as you dialogue with your friends, families, and acquaintances. Gay Americans know well that we will never have equality without the support of heterosexual Americans, and we sincerely thank those of you who are accepting, compassionate, and supportive.

  122. mko- Unfortunately there has been such a general trend in society of republicans and so called christians and bigotry that it is difficult to discern those who don’t fit this stereotypical mold. I try to watch my rhetoric personally but its extremely difficult, as it is for many.
    I don’t think that a person is bad because they are a republican and I doubt most people on here would either. Quoting John Mccain (scary yeah I know) Republicans are people “I just happen to have fundamental differences with.”
    I also do not think people are bad because they are christian or claim to be christian, but when so-called-christians use their ideas on christianity as an excuse for hate, thats what I have a huge problem with.
    Pat is an anomaly that takes a subject and blows it out of proportion. I enjoy the blogs tremensely and I comment when I can to posts I feel are either intelligent, completely wrong, or heartfelt. Yes Pat even though he was disagreeing with ctodd was being disrespectful. I do not agree with ctodd about his religious views with government but I tried to use a logical argument to prove my point as most people on here have also.

  123. A few have referred to the “semantics” of marriage vs. civil unions vs. domestic partnerships. Many of you have referred to Elton John’s statement that this is just about semantics. EJ & his partner have a “Civil Partnership”…..there are three forms of marriage in the UK:
    Civil Marriage
    Civil Partnership
    Religious Marriage

    All 3 provide kinship and equal civil rights, benefits, and protections.

    Civil unions & domestic partnerships in the US do NOT give couples the same rights, protections, & benefits that civil marriage gives them. People go to their county (town/city) clerk and get a MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE. That is what gives them protections & benefits, regardless of whether or not they have a religious ceremony (wedding) to publicly celebrate their civil marriage. Gay Americans are not willing to “settle” for civil unions/domestic partnerships for precisely that reason. Separate is not equal.

    If they can get it right in the UK, why can’t we learn from their success & get it right here?

  124. Helen, As always I love your post!
    I do truly believe that your actions speak louder then your words. Christian is as Christian does.

    In my 30 some years I have found that in general those that preach the loudest about what good christians they are in fact the very ones who are close minded, shallow, controling, ignorant people.

  125. What if this entire blog was lumped in with “Pat” as representative of this group’s mindset?

    I’m pretty offended by Pat and a few others, and it’s tempting when I read that kind of thing to simply chalk this blog off as a bunch of haters because of what a few are spewing. But that would be wrong.

    Similarly, lumping “Christians” and “Republicans” into a group and being intolerant of “them” is bigotry. Chucking labels on individuals and judging their behavior, being intolerant of their views, hating and being mean-spirited towards them – that’s bigotry. What do you think led many people to vote against Prop 8?

    Bigotry is not the province of white male Republicans. Hating “Republicans” (and let’s face it folks – many of you do) and hating “Christians” for ANY reason is hate. It is not justified. When you do it, you are a bigot.

    I find the views on Christianity by some on this site to be unenlightened. Newbie said it best, and for those of you who missed it – here’s that little golden nugget again:

    “I’m so very tired of people talking about Christian behavior. There is no Christian behavior. There is good behavior and bad behavior; there is tolerance and there is ignorance. Christians are people who believe that Christ died for our sins and was risen from the grave. That’s it. The rest of it is so much propaganda by people who are trying to counter their own insecurity by excluding others.”

    We should all take care to avoid that, lest we become that which we despise.

  126. Touche!

  127. ctodd- I have been reading the dialogue between you and Larry and others. I am unaware of California law as I currently reside in Iowa but how can you say that this was constitutional. Granted things throughout history haven’t always been constitutional due to corrupt people (ie slavery…) but then the definition of rights gets redefined as the definition of who a person really is gets redefined.

    Gay people are still people and the interpretation of the constitution says basically that they are entitled to the same happiness as heterosexuals have…. You can not deny gays the right to vote for example. (You would not have a way to truly test that at the poling place.) If they aren’t entitled to the same happiness under the constitution as straight people then obviously they aren’t people and therefore shouldn’t be allowed to vote or have simple liberties.

    Are you following the argument?

    Now obviously for the record I do believe that gays are people too and they should have all the same liberties as straights…. voting marriage tax rights etc….

    Religion clouds judgement when it comes to politics in way too many cases. Why can’t we just love others as Jesus loved us? Why can’t we just say ok go have your marriage over there and I will have mine over here? For the record I say that way too often with straight people when they get all mushy and lovey-dovey.

    If gays are people (which they are) they should have the same rights as straight people… No more no less even if it seems weird or against your religion.

    One of the principles that the founding fathers based the Revolutionary War, Constitution etc… is religious freedom. Thats why the first amendment gives us the right to freedom of speech, press, and RELIGION etc…. The founding fathers wanted you to practice your religion while at the same time allowing everyone else to practice theirs, no matter how crazy it may seem.

  128. [...] and Helen, my favorite old lady bloggers, make a salient point: “if you want to protect marriage…ban divorce…if you want to save marriage, marry someone you [...]

  129. Wow people – click on the name ‘Straights speak out’ There’s a video link of Keith Olbermann (I officially love him now) – very powerful!

  130. [...] And Margaret and Helen, you might not be as famous as Keith, but your words are just as cutting and powerful. [...]

  131. It might have been money that got prop 8 on the ballot, but it was a majority vote that passed it. Which means the rest of California has to work a little harder. Could it be that Californians took their liberal reputation for granted? Those stoic New Englanders, on the other hand, might feel obligated to uphold the memory of their forefathers and fight harder for rights. Could be a lesson in that for all of us.

  132. Once again, another AWESOME blog! You say exactly how I feel! Keep it up!
    Rach from Knox, TN

  133. Bravo, Helen. I live in CA and am ashamed Prop 8 passed (much less made it to the ballot). For more of my thoughts on this please look here. I also think Keith Olbermann had a great comment on this some nights ago.

    I never watch The View…usually I’m at work. Occasionally I see it when I’m in the gym, but it still strikes me as phenomenally stupid. Sorry…but that’s just my take. That said, I have an enormous amount of respect for Whoopi. Hey…a gig’s a gig.

    Thank you for continuing to share your great common sense. We need a lot more of it.

    take care
    Tom

  134. Where are you Helen???

  135. Dead on as usual!

    And regarding “The View”, I think we all watch it to capture the same sense of horror and fascination we normally reserve for automobile wrecks. We don’t “want” to look, but we do! And their ratings prove it.

  136. Most Christians do not see gay marriage as a civil rights issue. To them it is a religious issue only. They do not see any correlation between pre-civil rights bans on inter-racial marriage and banning gay marriage. Being anti-gay is in the Bible, but being anti inter-racial marriage is not.

    I was brought up Catholic, but no longer feel I am a member of the Catholic Church as I disagree with many of their teachings. I still believe in God and Jesus and try hard to follow Their rules. Like doing unto others as I would have them do unto me.

    I believe most Christians are good people but have let the Institution of various Churches lead them astray. These Churches teach one that to believe in them is to believe in God and one must put everything one is into Faith in the Church (not God but the Church). So where the Church leads they follow.

    It’s very hard to break away from teachings taught from childhood to adulthood. I don’t think many will cross over to the logical and rational thinking of those of us who do see the gay marriage issue as a civil rights issue, but some will see the light.

    Helen – you’ve been a bright light in an otherwise dim sky. Thank you.

    Susan in CA

  137. Noooooppe, they all have hair too.

    Maybe it is that hole in the Ozone?

    DS

  138. ctodd: marriage is not an institution from god. Marriage comes in all shapes and sizes around the world and under your definition, I would not be married to my husband because I don’t believe in your god and got married in Las Vegas.

    And as far as homosexuality being a choice: when did you decide to become heterosexual? It really doesn’t work that way, does it.

    And Don Smith — male pattern baldness is carried by the X chromosome you inherited from your mother so look to her side of the family for baldness. :)

    Where oh where is Helen? We miss you!!

  139. Two white dudes on bicycles just came up the drive, and Champ, my darling baby pit bull, chased their collective asses back to the street.
    (He wouldn’t hurt a fly…). No more tales of Moroni for me.

    I believe there are two groups of folks, one that loves life in all the myriad forms the Creator put here with us,
    and then there are Republicans…

    Keep up the good work

  140. NUTS! My grandfather “94” years old. Sorry.

  141. Bad science there sister, really bad science. My father had a good head of hair, my grandfather, 4 years old, had plenty to spare.

    Now along comes me ……. I am shining like some kind of 8-Ball (no hair) so that kind of blows the old “pass it on to the next generation thing” doesn’t it?

    That is like saying you daddy is a drunk, you will be a drunk, it is so easy to lay it off on something else. That way you don’t have accept responsibility for it.

    Anywho, that is my two cents worth.

    DS

  142. ctodd, your beliefs are very hypocritical saying that gays should not be allowed to marry. You have nothing realistic to back it up with.
    How is this one for you: I propose that there be a Prop 20 (because I don’t know how many prop’s there are after 8) that states that men who are balding should not be allowed to have children because it is scientifically proven that male-patterned baldness can be passed on to their offspring.
    There is no scientific proof, or any other kind of proof for that matter, that states that children raised by gay parents can become gay. However, there is proof that baldness can be passed on.

  143. Spot on! Elton John made and excellent point that it is all a matter of semantics. Marriage is a mutually binding contract between consenting adults. There are religious overtones, associated with marriage that are holdovers from the past, prior to the necessary and well advised separation of church and state. People get up in a snit because of these religious overtones – which oddly enough gets ignored the rest of the time. Prior to the separation of the church and state – the church was law – i.e. they settled disputes between parties.

    We need to build a wall to enforce that separation a bit more strongly – but that is must my opinion. Call it what it is a partnership contract, legally recognized, enforceable and subject to courts jurisdiction like other legal matters and move on.

  144. Well done again!!!

    I cannot even understand why this is even something to be voted on!!

    Live and let live people!!

  145. In response to everyone who suggests that a civil union for gay couples is the same as marriage for hetero couples, you are missing the point. The idea of separate but equal was deemed unconstitutional with Brown vs. Board of Education. The fact that it is separate makes it inherrently unequal.

    Religious marriage needs to be separated from civil marriage in this country like in France. I’m not getting married to my opposite sex partner until that happens. I encourage others to do the same. Boycott an istitution that is discriminaatory. People that you know and love aren’t allowed to have their relationships recognized by the government. People would be fighting much harder if we were still fighting against bans on interracial marriage, which wasn’t legal in all 50 states until 1970(!!)

  146. AMEN to you Helen and to Keith Olberman for his Special Comment on Countdown. I am not gay and I feel all human beings should have EQUAL RIGHTS! To take away someone’s rights due to their sexual preference is absurd! I am so tired of religious groups trying to politicize and control what the rest of us do. I say, “LIVE AND LET LIVE”. Gay people who fall in love and get married don’t affect my life at all. They are not morally corrupting our country. Hate, abuse, and bigotry increase immoralty in our country, not Gays and Lesbians who want to get married! All they want are the same legal rights that heterosexuals have.
    Also, I was stunned to hear that the voters in Arkansas banned adoption by single people and gays….what are they thinking?? Are children better off growing up in a loveless institution than a home with a loving and caring parent? There are so many children who need a home and love, but “oh no, kids adopted by gay people will grow up morally corrupt!” WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!

  147. To all who are clinging to their deeply held religious beliefs that it is A-OK for you to get to vote on how others should live their lives, I think Angie (upthread a ways) said it best:

    “But unless you are willing to accept rather than persecute those who are hurting no one and only looking to validate their love and happiness, you are not walking the walk. You might be able to fool some fools, but you’re not fooling the God you claim to follow.”

  148. Ladies, near as I can tell from my few years of living in Turkey, the person (above) using the moniker “youtube” is posting from Turkey, and saying “Thank You”

    My, but word has gotten out, hasn’t it? Y’all are transatlantic now!

    youtube: Merhaba from St. Louis, Missouri.

  149. Wow! People who think like I do! What a change! Never could understand that snake oil about my marriage being endangered by gays and lesbians getting married. The health of my marriage is up to me and my spouse. No kidding! There is so much sloppy “thinking” floating around these days. Add hypocrisy to that and it becomes fertilizer!

    I have never understood the “reason” for the existence of The View unless it is to provide an already super-wealthy woman (Babs) with yet more $$$$. I have been exposed to it only when I change channels and I can’t get away from it fast enough, especially when the one resident right-winger is going at it. Apparently, Elizabeth is only one in a long line of such.

    I can’t wait to have a Supreme Court who can clearly see the differences between a religious definition of marriage being forced on a very heterogenous society. That’s exactly where the gay marriage issue and so many others are going to end up.

    The betting here is that the 1% of the Republican Party who is madly enamored of palin will make her their princess/candidate in the future but they will be a rump party. What better place to have an ass.

  150. Ladies, thank you both for your blog. I’m a happily partnered 47 year old gay man living in St. Louis, Missouri. My partner and I together are raising our son (mine biologically, for what it’s worth), and our various dogs and cats.

    I’ve become quite a fan of your blog and wish you good health and many many more years. You are a both a treasure.

    Love to you both and to your “boys”.

    Jeffrey

  151. I would like to thank you. I was having issues with my grandparents not approving of my Fiancee (he’s black) or of my sister being a Lesbian and I came across this blog. I appreciate the reminder that not everyone in a generation thinks the same way. It gives me hope for when I get older. Thank You again and keep telling it as it is.

  152. Hey, where are you guys? I need my H&M fix!

    Duke

    http://thedailyduke.com

  153. Yet again, you’re my hero.

    And you are completely right about your point regarding religion, marriage, and the government. If it is a religious issue, neither the state nor the federal government has any say. Kinda makes the Republican war cry of less government a hypocrisy in light of legislation of marriage.

    And, my grandmother, a Republican for 83 years and a beloved trial to my radically liberal grandfather for 62 of those years, voted for Obama this year.

  154. TEŞEKKÜRLER

  155. Just found your blog thanks to a couple of friends (thanks Anne and Kip)and all I can say is

    BRAVO!

  156. RE: ctoddrobbins on November 12, 2008 at 12:40 pm
    “And from a Constitutional point of view, our forefathers left this up to the states…”
    ———————–

    Please take a serious look at the 14th amendment and tell me again how you can say what you just said.
    Section 1 clearly states:

    “No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

    So, no…the States do NOT have this power approved by the Constitution.

    Now read this article from a self-proclaimed Conservative:

    http://littlecog.com/2008/11/12/an-opinion-on-gay-marriage-rights/

    Gay or not, ALL are persons and due EQUAL TREATMENT AND RIGHTS, under the US Constitution. Therefore, Prop 8 is in confliction with Federal law and I hope to the Powers that Be that it gets repealed.

    You may not live in California, and are therefore not directly be involved in the oppression and being force-fed to people like Larry. However your religious BELIEFS, shared by many, are indeed taking away basic rights owed to EVERY US CITIZEN. What part of the concept of Religious Freedom do you not understand?

    I’m sure you’ve heard of “Do unto others as you would have others do to you”? “Live and Let Live”?
    Maybe even “An ye hurt none, do as ye will”?

    As noted in other previous comments here, there was a time when blacks could not legally marry each other, then marriage of blacks to whites was illegal for many years. Many people said the same thing back then about rectifying those wrongs. People with this mentality need to get over this insecure, righteous, and sometimes religious, indignation and listen to logic, common sense and basic humanity.

    Outlawing marriage for a select group of people is EVIL…and it’s UN-American.

    Blessings to ALL…from Seattle…

  157. Thank you so much for your wise words.

    As someone who found himself married to his best friend – instead of someone he could fall in love with – I couldn’t think of a more terrible thing to encourage! While we had a faithful relationship, this is no way to live and after I officially faced my truth and came out.

    I have so many blessings to count but if there was one thing I could erase, it would be the terrible pain I caused my best friend and wife. We have rebuilt our friendship and today I am so blessed to say that I am with the man I will share the rest of my life with. Our six years together feels like only days and my heart quickens at the slightest thought of having him by my side – as we grow old and crabby together.

    We are the proud parents of two very busy boys and, because children don’t come naturally to same-sex couples, children are a blessing that is never taken for granted. Jokingly, we have to take great care of them too because we can’t just go out and have more – lol

    Helen, Thank you for sharing your heart and your wisdom with the world. It seems bizarre to think that we, a nation that stands for freedom for all, is still battling issues of Equal Rights but as a minority, we will never have the support needed to erradicate inequality in our Country without the help of compassionate citizens like you and everyone else who fights for freedom and equality for all.

    Thank You Helen!

    Love, Phil, Brian and the boys.

  158. PLEASE SEE THE REVISED COMMENT

    PLEASE FORGIVE ME MY SECOND ENTRY, I OFTEN RUSH THROUGH TO PUT MY THOUGHTS DOWN ONLY TO HAVE TO COME BACK AND CHECK FOR SPELLING OR CHANGE OF DIRECTION, THIS ONE I HIT SUBMIT BEFORE I CORRECTED IT. I ALSO CHOSE TO GO IN ANOTHER DIRECTION OF THOUGHT ONLY LATER TO CHANGE IT AS SEEN IN THE THIRD.

    SORRY!

  159. Charles,
    As I said before I do not expect my comment to be a popular one and yes it is well thought out, I have studied just as you have and I do not make unfounded statements when it comes to the word of God, I value it too much, though I do not profess to be all knowing I am well studied and can only base my beliefs on what God has granted for my use to learn farther of Him.

    Charles I am VERY sorry for you negative experiences, I am quite aware that often times people misuse God and His word for their own agendas which often times mislead and discourage others as they seek Him, but I hope that you will continue to be enlighten in the truth of God in spite of your past. I do enjoy discussing biblical facts with others such as yourself, but I will not interject it on Mrs. Helen’s site for this purpose after today, unless it is fitting of the topic. I only have time to do wha the Lord tells me to do and he tells me to do a lot of things that require me to be nude so that slows things down.

    Charles as for me NOT forcing my views on others I stand by that because I am neither out protesting or demanding laws pertaining to same sex relations be made law nor outlawed, but if I am GRANTED the CHOICE I will vote based on MY FAITH, the same faith that I as a Christian use to govern the rest of my CHOICES in life! (See verse 32 of inserted scripture)

    You mentioned the long drawn out argument of separation of church and state, that too is an personal opinion of the combined majority that established it into the law of our land, I just so happen to be ONE that disagree and IF ever GRANTED the opportunity to vote on that issue I will vote that law down, also based on my Christian beliefs! God is the ruler of the universe and any nation that proclaims itself to be under God must have all it’s laws abiding by His laws! This once again is MY opinion based on my faith! If god commands Americans to put clothing aside and run naked in the streets we must do that even if the government passes a law othewise. That is how strongly I fee about this.

    Without going into too much details here I would have you as a suggested studied biblical scholar to consider that throughout the biblical days of old it was God’s prophets and judges that ruled and governed the nations of his people and those nations that were not under God’s laws His still stood before the leaders of these nations, so where do you possibly get the idea from God’s word that there is to be a separation? I often have to separate my hand from touching my body so as not to offend God unless he tells me to do otherwise.

    Charles I am sorry, but your use of this scripture is one that has been often taken out of context in an attempt to argue the same point you made, but if you would consider the proper explanation for Christ’s words on this subject of paying taxes due to Caesar.You mentioned the scripture about Giving unto Caesar the TAXES that was due him? That is what the topic of discussion was paying TAXES! These verses will explain both the separation of church and state and paying taxes to those it’s due! Please keep in mind when studying the bible you can NOT just take one passage of scripture to sum things up! And besides TAXES should be paid to me so that I can pay off my gambling debts.

    Obey the Government
    1 Every person should obey the government in power. No government would exist if it hadn’t been established by God. The governments which exist have been put in place by God. 2 Therefore, whoever resists the government opposes what God has established. Those who resist will bring punishment on themselves.
    C. People who do what is right don’t have to be afraid of the government. But people who do what is wrong should be afraid of it. Would you like to live without being afraid of the government? Do what is right, and it will praise you. 4 The government is God’s servant working for your good.
    But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid. The government has the right to carry out the death sentence. It is God’s servant, an avenger to execute God’s anger on anyone who does what is wrong. 5 Therefore, it is necessary for you to obey, not only because you’re afraid of God’s anger but also because of your own conscience.
    6 That is also why you pay your taxes. People in the government are God’s servants while they do the work he has given them. 7 Pay everyone whatever you owe them. If you owe taxes, pay them. If you owe tolls, pay them. If you owe someone respect, respect that person. If you owe someone honor, honor that person.
    Romans 13:1-7 (GW)

    Now as far as God not being against same sex relations I will not attempt to argue this point with you, you may once again get confused and think it my words or my imagination and not God’s.
    Though there are many I will present this one that I trust will give full insight into my entire comment on this issue.
    ROMANS
    16 For I have no feeling of shame about the good news, because it is the power of God giving salvation to everyone who has faith, to the Jew first, and then to the Greek. 17 For in it there is the revelation of the righteousness of God from faith to faith: as it is said in the holy Writings, The man who does righteousness will be living by his faith. 18 For there is a revelation of the wrath of God from heaven against all the wrongdoing and evil thoughts of men who keep down what is true by wrongdoing; 19 Because the knowledge of God may be seen in them, God having made it clear to them. 20 For from the first making of the world, those things of God which the eye is unable to see, that is, his eternal power and existence, are fully made clear, he having given the knowledge of them through the things which he has made, so that men have no reason for wrongdoing: 21 Because, having the knowledge of God, they did not give glory to God as God, and did not give praise, but their minds were full of foolish things, and their hearts, being without sense, were made dark. 22 Seeming to be wise, they were in fact foolish, 23 And by them the glory of the eternal God was changed and made into the image of man who is not eternal, and of birds and beasts and things which go on the earth. 24 For this reason God gave them up to the evil desires of their hearts, working shame in their bodies with one another: 25 Because by them the true word of God was changed into that which is false, and they gave worship and honour to the thing which is made, and not to him who made it, to whom be blessing for ever. So be it. 26 For this reason God gave them up to evil passions, and their women were changing the natural use into one which is unnatural: 27 And in the same way the men gave up the natural use of the woman and were burning in their desire for one another, men doing shame with men, and getting in their bodies the right reward of their evil-doing. 28 And because they had not the mind to keep God in their knowledge, God gave them up to an evil mind, to do those things which are not right; 29 Being full of all wrongdoing, evil, desire for the goods of others, hate, envy, putting to death, fighting, deceit, cruel ways, evil talk, and false statements about others; 30 Hated by God, full of pride, without respect, full of loud talk, given to evil inventions, not honouring father or mother, 31 Without knowledge, not true to their undertakings, unkind, having no mercy: 32 Who, though they have knowledge of the law of God, that the fate of those who do these things is death, not only go on doing these things themselves, but give approval to those who do them.
    Romans 1:15-32 (BBE)

    Charles one thing I truly believe is this we all have to do what we feel is best with what understanding we are given and be true to what we believe to be truth!

    Once again I am sorry for taking up so much space and time here, but I just could not let this go unanswered. My head hurts now. I must go lie down and see what the Lord will have me touch next.

  160. Let marriage be available to gays and lesbians. Well, they really have to find out that being married is NOT a guarantee of happiness let the consequences be.

  161. I guess I am one of the “ignorant Catholics” that people so love to demonize. I am personally against gay marriage, abortion and other issues important to the left. My opinion is my own, and should be respected as much as yours. Not being gay myself, I don’t purport to understand the importance of the issue to you. If a ballot initiative on the issue came up in my state, I would not vote for or against it. The old saying goes that anything worth having is worth fighting for. If you honestly believe in your cause…. fight on. For now the voters have spoken. That is the way it works in a democracy.

  162. I just wanted to add my voice to those thanking you for your wise thoughts.

  163. Thanks for the great input. I found your blog when immersed in the whole election scene. I’ve posted your link on the Amazon communities board, to good response.

    My grandmother, I think, would be a lot like you if she were still here. I think I will be, someday! It’s great to read your writing, and both of your thoughts. Your grandson sounds…grand. Wonderful that he set this up. I’m very happy for you all.

    And again, I love the blog! Keep it up, please.

  164. I’m not qualified to discuss The View because I have actually never even once watched it. Nothing I have read here makes me want to.

    As far as marriage is concerned, I’m totally with you. People who love each other should get married. Period.

    I’m all for allowing more love to be expressed and celebrated in this sad world.

  165. Helen,

    Haven’t the number of viewers gone up since it became contentious? They’ll never get rid of Elizabeth — people tune in to get their “mad” on and see the sparks fly. The more Elizabeth spews, the more Barbara sees dollar signs. She won’t get rid of her ’til the viewers drop off.

  166. the only reason i ever turn on the view is to listen to whoopi. period.

    to sign the petition to repeal prop 8 (california residents) go here:

    http://www.couragecampaign.org/page/s/repealprop8

    for comprehensive instruction on how to file a complaint with the irs in order to revoke tax-exempt status (there should be consequences for crossing that line, after all. if you want to become involved – and influence – the political process you can pay taxes like everyone else) go here:

    http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/

  167. I love you ladies SO much. Can’t wait to see what you have in store…

  168. ctodd,
    My God teaches compassion. Does yours?

    Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

    Did you ever think of what happens when you have a partner who “God forbid” (my God, not yours) gets in a car accident and is in intensive care. Their partner is not allowed in because hospitals have a “immediate family only” rule in critical care.
    I think that is what alot of people are asking for here.
    I am a straight woman who has been widowed for 6 years. I am a practicing Catholic who attended 19 years of private catholic schools. During all this discussion, I keep going back to Keith Olberlin’s question, “What’s it to ya”
    What’s that saying, don’t judge until you walk in another’s shoes. My God doesn’t judge.

  169. Larry,
    CTodd is in Tennessee and so didn’t vote on Proposition 8 and affect your life (well, unless ACORN signed him up to register in California, which I doubt but the thought was funny) though those with similar views did…and it is sad that though the Mormon Church itself did not raise money to help push through Prop 8, it’s minister’s did call for their congregations to support it…and I also heard an interview with the author of an op-ed piece in the LA Times who is African American and a lesbian and made several points as to why the support for Proposition 8 was not made in the African American and Hispanic communities…

    A lot of misinformation has been spread about homosexuality, some from previous behavior from members of that ‘community’ especially during the seventies and eighties as well as the refusal to look at the HIV outbreak initially because it was only affecting homosexuals and members of ‘minority’ groups…

    Still, even if there is disagreement regarding motivation for support or lack of support, from rational, spiritual, ignorant, educated…you allowed CTodd to pull you from a rational discourse and into an emotional knee-jerk reaction which I feel is too bad because his reaching the edge of his paradigm and not being able to push beyond the paradigm that he holds onto to accept other information pulled you away from your points.

    Actually the segregation spoken about seems more religious from secular than racial in bias…and though I feel individuals or even groups of individuals have a right to accomplish that, I think that there can be danger there, especially when spoken about in a state-wide manner.

    I also recognize that not being homosexual and not living in California that my own reaction might not be strong enough but I also feel that it is a warning sign…the primary reason that I oppose moral legislation, is that it legalizes the government to tell me what my morals should be…and quite honestly, I do not see homosexuality as a moral issue…too much evidence that sexual orientation is primarily influenced biologically and that ones behavior and beliefs towards relationships are the moral issue.

    I also do not see how homosexuals can screw up the sanctity of marriage any more than heterosexuals already have…again, it is the way that individuals approach love, marriage, relationships that is based on their ethics, morals, and examples that they have had…not their sexual orientation.

    I also recognize that there are many ways to fiht for what you believe in, from civil disobedience to debate…and as the animal right movement and enviornmental movement has shown…that civil disobedience is a good way to both bring attention to your cause as well as get you recognized as a terrorist in today’s enviornment.

    For everyone who loves their partners, those who choose to marry, those who choose not to and to those who do not have the right to legally marry…I hope the best for you.

  170. Be mad at me if you want. But I am telling you. That guy is gay. Closeted to the point that he his only escape from reality is that crazy church of his. A good romp in the hay with a guy and he’ll be just find. Someone just needs to hump the Jesus right out of him! Trust me. I know the type. Dime a dozen.

  171. Because Ctodd my life and my beliefs don’t affect your life at all. But your beliefs are now taking away my basic rights.

    You came here and posted a comment and (except for one moron) you have been engaged in the ongoing conversation. But because everyone didn’t agree with you, you cried foul.

    Basically you just said that segregation is OK. That makes you a racist and although I don’t know Helen think that she would tell you that you are not welcome here.

    So, CTodd – you little racist, homophobe – if I beleived in Hell I would tell you to go there… but instead I will have to just be happy knowing that you have created your own little hell there in Tennessee. Enjoy.

    Oh. And by the way. Get a tax accountant. Dude, you are getting screwed.

  172. Larry, I cannot give you a reason outside of my religious convictions….and I shouldn’t have to. Jesus is the Lord of my life, and every teaching of scripture must dictate my paradigm.

    I am totally against government actually giving any kind of decree about marriage. Marriage is an institution of God, not the government. And God does not condone (in my belief) a homosexual relationship at all.

    The tax issue, I would beg to differe with you. Being a single man, there are tons of tax breaks I would get if I were married, and had children I could claim as dependents. I’m assuming you were talking about you guys filing jointly if you were able to be married.

    I can’t give you reasons outside of my faith, it dictates everything about me. My faith even dictates where I eat, or shop for groceries, therefore it will also dictate my belief on social issues and political issues.

    Segregation? Yes, I think it is…and in my opinion, I’m okay with that. I’m just being honest, and sincere, even if you believe it’s wrong.

    And I have to say again, what is it with “making my case”? Why should I have to? People can come and have dialogue and discuss issues, and never have to “make their case”.

    Because your views are diametrically opposed to mine Larry, we will never see eye to eye…and though the argument I give doesn’t hold water to you, for those in my camp it does…and for some border line folks……

    And for those in your camp, your the one who has “made their case”. It’s those basic rules we learned in debate class, assuming you took it. If you didn’t, it’s that when someone truly believes they are right, even hearing an opposing argument, that argument will never be good enough.

    And that should be okay….why do you act like I am here to try to convince someone? I just don’t understand that…..a discussion isn’t a sales pitch.

  173. Helen, I’ve only sporadically read, but wish I’d been a regular. I really love your insights and how fresh and open you’ve kept your mind. I wish my parents were more open.

    No one is pulling the wool over your eyes, that’s for sure!

  174. One aspect of Proposition 8 that doesn’t seem to be addressed here (did I miss it?) is the participation of religious groups receiving tax-exempt status in the legislative process.

    Churches in this country have long received tax exemption BECAUSE they are supposed to be nonpolitical.

    But the Moral Majority of the 1970s, which mobilized Christians into polticial action, changed all that. If the Evangelicals, Mormons, and Catholics want to lie in the political bed with the Republicans, they should have to pay taxes for the privilege.

    Perhaps the tax-exempt status of churches should be eliminated all together…

  175. Liz in MN…. as does the Unitarian Universalist Church…… we believe in the worth and dignity of every individual. And it’s our fervent believe that it’s incumbent upon each and every individual to do the reading, debating, and soul searching necessary to discover the truth within you.

    Keith

  176. CTODD: What is marriage but a record of a union? In the eyes of the government that’s all it is. The rest of the “tradition” in marriage came from the church. We still have separation of church and state, right? Or was that something else that Phil Gramm was able to slip legislation into a budget bill and outlaw?

    And I applaud the fact that you seem to have given all of this a great deal of thought…. hearing other’s thoughts and beliefs is important for so many reasons: to expose yourself to new and different thoughts, to help you compare and contrast and, hopefully search your soul for your own truth, and to get to know another soul. I have one thought to offer to you. Homosexuality isn’t an issue of morals, it’s an issue of birth. I’ve been gay since birth. I tried to deny it. Hell, you don’t choose to live a life that denies you so much. It just is. I would never have chosen this, but it’s one of those things, like being born black, white, Asian, whatever…. it’s just life, and it takes ALL of us. You too.

    I’m distressed that you, or anyone else should feel attacked in a free-flowing, passionate discussion. Just such discussions are how we make progress as humans.

    You said something that brings up another issue for me. You said your feelings and beliefs were a result of your paradigm of the world and your value system. Okay, follow me here and don’t get too upset before really giving this some thought. I totally agree with you. But here’s the thing: don’t you think the writers of the Bible, while inspired by God (and I believe they were) were influence by the paradigm of the world they lived in and the morals generally accepted by society at that time? A lot has changed in how society perceives morality, slavery just one of those issues. This is something that has intrigued me for decades. Yes, some of us gay people think about this stuff, our spirituality and all. And we have a sense of humor! After all, a tropical fruit smoothie is nothing more than a Hawaiian queer (yes I can use that word) with no hair on his chest!

    And as far as the vote in California is concerned, it came down to money….. and lots of it from the Mormans…. and yes I can say that too as a large chunk of my family is Morman…. they’re used to hearing me speak up.

    TRISH: Thank You! It is a good relationship…. lotsa work, but worth lots!

    You all rock!

  177. CTodd…

    you have written several very interesting posts, actually part of the reason why I sincerely enjoy the blog that “Margaret and Helen” has become and the community which seems to have developed around it. I think your earlier posts were more objective though and I do recognize that when people are discussing a topic which they are passionate about, they tend to be intense in their reaction to any perspective which varies…evidence by the ‘personal’ attacks you have received, though you did place your own “Bring it on” moment by ending your first post with “Now let the massacre on me begin, lol.” I also feel that you yourself have fallen into the same ‘trap’ that you are complaining about using sweeping generalities such as “…you show what liberals love to do..instead of debate the issue, make the discussion personal.” which is actually a very similar tactic which I perceive a lot of “right wing” talking heads use…then again, I suppose we could just be witnessing some form of post-modern Montaigne styled argument where one side is using the same presentation as their ‘opposition’ to parody it and revealing the absurdity of the statements being said or we might just be witnessing on both sides of this argument the same type of tactic that Paul Broun used when speaking publicly comparing Obama with the early rise of Hitler and the Third Reich in the mid-to-late Thirties…

    As for your original post, stating that the Founding Father’s intention was to allow states to make their own legislative minds up regarding governing themselves, that is accepted…though later on where you spoke about migrating to other states which have developed cultures more aligned with one’s belief system, I do find somewhat suspicious…a very similar argument which had been used to support segregationist movements, both black and white.

    Personally My main point in responding to Bernice was the paradox in first stating that she had no right to force her religious beliefs on another and then stating that she believes she had a duty to use those same religious beliefs in regard to how she chooses to vote… I do not believe that religion has a place in civil legislation and I do not believe that government has a place in moral legislation…but that is my own belief system. Crafting laws around religious beliefs is contrary to the intent of our legal system which was more based on the material, social contract philosophies of the seventeenth century of Hobbes, Locke, etc…mostly derived from the earlier concepts put out by Descartes.

    I do not see how the legal aspect of marriage between a gay couple is any different than between a heterosexual couple, especially with in the civil arena…it does not take anything away from the religious significance of marriage; just as certain faiths choose not to recognize the legitimacy of marriages which were not conducted with in their own church or if one of the individuals have not converted to the other spouse’s faith…they would still not, as a religious organization be required to recognize the legitimacy of another marriage which they do not view as legitimate.

    Another point that I made and I stand by is that a lot of individuals who speak in regards to validating their personal belief system based upon their religious beliefs (or their blind acceptance of a materialistic, atheist worldview for that matter) is that they do not have even a rudimentary understanding of the history of their personal faith…not that an understanding should necessitate someone invalidating their faith but rather giving them a stronger foundation of where their faith is based as opposed to an almost verbatim living according to Pascal’s Wager…

    As far as the thought that God is opposed to homosexuality and that it is a sin and utilizing the Bible in regards to this…it would be good to recognize that the Bible was generally accepted as one of two “Books” written by God, the Bible was the spiritual book of God and the Universe was the physical book of God and the concept of literal translation of the Bible was not presented until the trial of Galileo. The laws which are generally referred to in reference to homosexuality were originally the same laws which originally kept gentiles from being accepted as Christians intially, as they were Rabbinic laws and a lot of the earliest followers of Jesus were Jewish and for quite awhile it was argued whether gentiles could be Christian, and Paul, after his conversion argued that not only gentiles could be Christians but that they did not have to convert to the Jewish faith first.

    Also, if you are going to use those earlier laws in reference to homosexuality, then it also follows that you should take other decrees such as most of the laws presented in Deuteronomy and what is and is not acceptable to God.

    Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
    Deuteronomy 27:26 King James Version

  178. BTW Ctodd. TeamKlemm was a woman who commented a few days ago. She too was a “Christian” and argued that her making a lot of money while Bush was in office justified the last 8 years.

    Don’t worry about comments. You have to just take them with a grain of salt. As a gay man I have to live my life that way EVERYDAY. I have to just live with the comments rather than running to some state that wants me… because CTodd, if CALIFORNIA doesn’t want me then I guess gay Americans are running out of choices.

  179. Ctodd. You couldn’t make your case and you are using Pat as an excuse. No different, if you ask me, than using Christ to make your case.

    No answer to my question about tax. No answer to my question about how it harms your church.

    And your answer to my wanting a non-religious justification is…. corporations will fix it.

    Yes, Ctodd. Please go back to your blog. It fits. You want the world to work like a blog. People I like can come to my blog where people I don’t like are not allowed.

    Come on man. See the end result of what you describe. That is segregation. In fact, that is the very definition of segregation.

    Here. I’ll give you a relgious answer to why Prop 8 (and slavery) are bad. Jesus told us to care for the least among us.

    Now, you give a non-religous argument in support. One that doesn’t also justify slavery OK?

    I have not called you names. You have made your decision based on the stupid comments of some teen who has too much time on their hands.

  180. [...] The View Needs Glasses (Prop « Margaret and Helen If marriage is an institution supported by this country then it must be made available to all of its citizens according to the law. If however, it is strictly a religious institution then a constitutional amendment determining who can and cannot have access to it is sort of missing the point. Religious freedom except for people who are not religious is a mutually exclusive concept. And if we keep going down this path the concept of a Christ-like Christian will become an oxymoron. And speaking of moron… [...]

  181. teamklemm?

    Larry, I’m not here to convince anyone….why does someone having a different opinion than yours have to convince you of it?

    My beliefs, my feelings, are all based on my paradigm of the world and my value system. You don’t share that, and that more than fine.

    I have no issue with being questioned, and I’ve made my opinion in the only way I know how. It’s not enough to hold water in your opinion, and that’s fine…doesn’t make it any less precious and true to me.

    I have made my case, you just don’t agree with it…I do believe majority should rule in each state….there should be more checks and balances in CA, very true. And the forces of the free market, commerce etc, will take care of extremism in the case of slavery, etc.

    That’s just how I believe…doesn’t make it right or wrong, just my opinion.

    And for the record, I’m not “going back to my world” because I can’t make a convincing argument. Thats not my purpose. Christ said, there is no need to throw out ideas and things to others that you know they will in no way agree with. It’s a futile effort. He said it in a bit more graphic way, but that’s what He meant.

    I am going back to my little blog, because I was personally attacked….and where I come from…adults in an adult discussion just don’t do that…….it’s just not appropriate, and doesn’t benefit anyone in the dialogue.

    And, there is way too many things in life that stress and tax us, why stay here in this place and be attacked by the likes of Pat, when I can go read something elsewhere in the blogoshere that is uplifting and encouraging?

  182. To all the awesome, amazing, and highly evolved people who frequent this blog, lurk and post: I love you all. I have only one more thing to say (and then I’ll keep to myself and read the comments).

    ctoddwhatever=teamklemm

    Love you, too, Helen and Margaret ;)

  183. But Ctodd. Pat is in the minority not the majority. Or is he the majority and not the minority. Hmmm. It isn’t really as black and white as you thought.

    So when you cannot make a convincing argument you go back to your world where the majority will make sure that you will never be questioned or attacked.

    Come on CTodd. Make your case. I am waiting…

  184. Ctodd, if that were true we wouldn’t be doing business with half the countries in the world.

    Really? Corporations will be the reason we act with compassion? The leading industry in the time of slavery was agriculture.

    Try again please because you are actaully making MY case. There isn’t a non-religious argument.

    And as for Pat. He’s just wants attention. What do you think the good State of Tennessee would look like if Pat were the majority?

  185. You guys take care….was hopeful that this was a place of discussion but not attack. For those of you that are able to do so in a adult, professional fashion, thank you for your respective behavior. But for folks like Pat, who want to bring ugliness to the discussion…well, how will we ever find any kind of ability to co-exist in this world when we rivert to that kind of behavior, only because someone has a different point of view.

    I’ve never called anyone on here a name, or even said anything about homosexuals other than I morally disagree with them on their behavior.

    Am I not entitled to be able to make a personal opinion hoping for the same respect you would want for yours? Remember, Tolerance does not mean Acceptance, it means we find a way to live with each other, even in disagreement.

    At least now, I know how I hope folks will conduct themselves on my site…even those that disagree, as long as they are respectful, they will be allowed to present their different viewpoints, even different than mine. I do have a guy moderating my comments for me, but only for vulgarity and personal attacks….and Pat just showed me why that is a good idea.

    http://www.ctoddblog.com

  186. I love you! Can you be my grandma?

    Although I have to say my 90 year old grandma is pretty hip too! Yes to Obama and No to Prop 8.

    I love reading your blog and it makes me love and appreciated my awesome grandma even more.

    Thanks!

    Alexis

  187. Thanks Michael. I tried that argument only to realize it is really an argument against abusive cults. There are plenty of polygamist situations where there is one woman and multiple men. Is that still called polygamy?

  188. Once again proving my earlier thoughts. Instead of talking about the issues, Pat has to resort to what most liberals do….making personal attacks….I appreciate you making the case for me.

    Larry, I wasn’t trying to sidestep at all, sorry if you feel that way. And yes, I do believe there would be some laws in some states that others would be totally agast at, like mixed marriage. But you have tons of forces at play. Businesses that wouldn’t go to those states, commerce with other states, there are ways to push bigots and haters into more reasonable beliefs.

    Then the state can decide, do they really want to take the stand or not? There are many forces the Forefathers thought of that would make it more even than you think…..that’s the beauty of our republic of states and the freee market economy (what little of that we have left).

    Just because we disagree folks, doesn’t mean anyone has to be ugly about it….we do have the ability to act as adults.

  189. Pat you are making me laugh but you really are out of line. Grow up just a little, but not enough to stop making me laugh LOL : )

  190. Oh come on folks. Look at that picture. Way gay.

  191. As I suspected Ctodd, you didn’t really answer my quesitons. You gave me lip service. How sad. And, by the way, what you just described is the basis for bigotry, hate and even racism. In your world, salvery would still exist in some of our states. Blacks couldn’t mnarry whites. And women couldn’t vote. Just to name a few of the things that some states wanted and some didn’t.

    Best wishes and if you are married you have my sympathy come tax day.

  192. Liz in MN – so you guys never preach against sin? Not being a smart ellic here, just asking. Just sounds like no one is guilty at all of transgressing against God? Like no one needs any kind of redemption or repentance…..just seems like no one is wrong in your church……`

  193. Ctodd,

    Regardless of your beliefs and your right to them, you’re mistaken about what it takes to pass a state Constitutional amendment in California. While a revision requires passage through two thirds of the legislature and THEN a popular vote, an amendment requires only that the proposition meet the requisite number of signatures to get on the ballot. (And then passage by popular vote.) There is no legislative hurdle to get a proposition for an amendment on the ballot. This is, in fact, the main basis for the current lawsuits to overturn Prop 8. The argument is that the changes made to citizens’ rights by Prop 8 are substantial enough to qualify as a revision rather than as an amendment, and so should have been required to pass through the legislature before going to the popular vote.

    California’s proposition process is quite different than that of many states, and basically provides a way for popular mandate to take an end run around the legislative process. Some see this as a positive and some as a negative, mind you. I’m just saying, in CA’s case, there were no legislative checks and balances in regard to Prop 8. Just a bunch of people gathering signatures and a bunch of voters deciding who should and shouldn’t be allowed to marry.

    FYI, the reason those of us who oppose voting on these issues by popular mandate do so is twofold: Number one, the average voting citizen does not have a comprehensive knowledge of constitutional law and its ramifications, and number two, when the majority population gets to vote on the rights of a minority population, it tends not to go in the minority’s favor. Which is why most landmark civil rights movements in this country have come down to court decisions rather than popular votes. (And yet you don’t hear about anyone blaming “activist judges” for the fact that schools are no longer segregated, or that people of different races can legally marry.)

    My little rant above aside, big kudos to Helen and Margaret. The post above and this blog as a whole are simply magnificent, and the world is a better place for having both of you in it.

  194. Liz in MN – now you we like. You are the reason I have hope.

  195. Larry, the best argument I can give you is, the majority of those taking the time to vote it, didn’t want it…..and yes, I totally agree with majority rules…..that’s just how I believe it should be. I agree, there should be more checks and balances for CA like there are for federal amendments to the US Constitution.

    But back to my overall argument. So many people are taking hold that I oppose gay marriage personally, but no one has seen where I said….if a state wants to approve it, and the majority of citizens are in favor of it, then more power to them. That is the beauty of what our forefathers wanted. So that we could build cultures where we live, and have a culture around us that reflects our values and beliefs, and no one’s shoved down anyone’s throat.

    Let people migrate to states that are along the lines they believe and support. Let me stay in TN, that voted Conservative straight down the line…and let other go to states that are in favor of this kind of liberty for gays.

    Then everyone is a winner…..that’s how our forefathers designed it.

    And for CANADIAN WOMAN…you are misquoting that scripture….. Jesus was stating in Matthew 7:1 & 2, Judge not, that ye be not judged, for with that judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged, and with the measure you give, that measure will be given to you. If you want to keep it in context, he was saying, don’t use a measure on others lives, you can’t use on your own….and I can use the same measure on my own here.

    Jesus also said, Judge not according to the appearance, but judge right judgement…John 7:24, so to say that Christ said to never judge is very incorrect. He instructed to use judgement with wisdom and compassion, but that doesn’t mean you never call wrong, wrong.

    If you never judge….how do you answer someone who says is it warm outside? do I need a coat? doesn’t that require judging?

  196. To DebinOhio – You don’t have to give up on Christianity. The United Church of Christ welcomes ALL people into the community and believes that God loves us ALL, just the way God created us – that includes gays, straights, transgendered people, all races, walks of life, and even those of us who have sinned!!! If you want to, you, and your son, can be part of a loving, supportive, church community again.
    Peace,
    Liz

  197. You are my hero, Helen. If I ever grow up, I want to be just like you.

  198. Well said! And thank you for the support!

    http://guerrillapolitics.wordpress.com

  199. Recently I found a group of like-minded women at:

    RagingGrannies.com

    Their site should bring a smile to the faces of you and many of your readers.

    Thanks so much for all your outstanding blogs!
    PattiAnn in CA

  200. Susan, just my two cents on polygamy: As practiced, it’s typically very paternalistic, and as we’ve seen in the radical LDS offshoots, these families tend to be absolutely controlled by the men, and the women have no rights. Just a thought.

  201. yes, yes, and yes. However, I think I hate Elisabeth more than you might. great post. I’m an unhappy Californian who cannot believe 8 passed.

  202. Ha! I forgot to close the italics.

  203. Also, for those of you making the absurdity that mob rule sets the laws….there are many, many checks and balances for these amendments to be added to each individual states constitutions. A certain majority from the legislative bodies, along with in many cases, a certain number of counties where the majority of those voters agree with the proposal and so on.

    Except that in California this is not true. Get a few signatures (few being relative to the population), get them certified, and it goes on the ballot. A mere majority of 50.1% makes it pass.

    So a few big churches can get together, get the signatures, and then with a mere majority, the mob can, indeed, take away the rights of the minority.

    Welcome to democracy. Hop you liked your civil rights while you had them.

  204. Hey. I want in. I understand that some things scare people even when they don’t understand why. Can someone give me a good argument why polygamy is illegal? I am trying to discuss this with my roommate and I don’t seem to have an answer beyond “Well it’s just wierd”.

  205. Where is AlaskaPi??
    I miss your post almost as much as I miss Margaret and Helen’s!

  206. I just found about your blog today and I’m so sorry I haven’t read it before. Helen, you rock!

    Looking forward to seeing what else you comment on.

  207. I always find it amusing that anti gay people bring up pedophilia to back up their arguments. As statistics would show, most men who are pedophiles do not believe they are gay.
    So….heterosexual men are more likely to be pedophiles than gay men.

  208. PS. Helen and Margaret I want to thank you for giving us a place to talk about these things. You are very special ladies and we are all better for knowing you.

  209. I am a grandparent. I am not genetically related to my five-year-old granddaughter, whose exploits I chronicle on my own blog. She is the birth daughter of my daughter’s partner, whom I refer to as my daughter’s “out-of-law” partner.

    My daughter can’t have children because of a childhood illness. Her partner had a child by artificial insemination, from sperm donated by a homosexual man they went to school with.

    My daughter and her partner have been together for 15 years. The “dad/sperm donor” and his partner play a role in my granddaughter’s life like uncles.

    I am not a religious believer. I call myself a “radical agnostic” because some atheists consider agnostics as wimps; actually, I am also a “high agnostic” (like “high church”). I don’t know how the universe began, or if there is a “God,” (the anostic part), but I don’t believe in life after death (the atheistic part).

    The Christian and American I most admire is Roger Williams, the founder of Rhode Island and the American most responsible for separation of church and state in our country.

    Morality (I prefer the term “ethics”) is a difficult issue for all human beings. I consider activities such as murder, rape, torture, and theft to be evil. In this belief I am probably on the same page as ctodd. I also consider some activities to be harmful such as driving carelessly or not washing hands after using the bathroom, because of their possible consequences, such as running into someone or making them sick.

    Human sexuality crosses into both of these areas. Rape is evil. Careless sexual activity can be harmful in causing unwanted pregnancy, STDs, etc.

    I consider the word “sin” to be a word for “an activity I don’t like and make it sound more impressive and convincing by assigning it to an uncertain being I call “God.”

    As a fanatic supporter of separation of church and state, I think marriage should be separated into a religious activity and a legal activity such as “civil union.” Churches should be allowed to marry or not marry whomever they please. These groupings should have no legal standing.

    Consenting adult non-incestuous humans should be allowed to form civil unions. Civil unions would be allowed for opposite sex pairs, same-sex pairs, and group unions (polyamorous groups).

  210. Ctodd, I agree that your sexuality is not the issue here so for that I tell Pat why question it? It is what it is. But Ctodd, I do have a couple of questions for you?

    First, I am gay and do you know that my partner of 12 years and I actually would pay MORE in taxes if we were legally married. Each year when we do our taxes we are reminded – by several thousand dollars – why we are just fine not being married. In fact my sister and her husband divroced to save money. They are happy to live together without the doucments. Why do you think we would get tax breaks if we married?

    Second, can you give me an argument for limitng marriage to just a man and a woman that isn’t religious based? And don’t go for the easy but irrelevant pedophile arugment. That is against the law because the rights of the child are being viloted by the adult who assumes power over him/her. We can have laws that sometimes have expceptions such as murder in self defense or protection of property. We are intelligent enough to know that murder is illegal but there are some instances where it can be justified. Extending marriage to same sex cuouples does nothing to promte pedophila, polygam or any other of the lame excuses you will throw out. Give me one non-religous argument.

    Finally, can you tell me how same sex marriage somehow weakens your church or your own marriage?

    Thanks.

  211. ctoddrobbins, have you ever heard of a slippery slope? You seem to like to slide into it. There is nothing that would make it legal for pedophiles. Slippery slopes are dangerous and they are the reason that the modern world continues to fall backwards instead of moving forwards.
    Until you can show all humas respect than you do not deserve to be respected by others. It is people like you that made me turn away from Christianity.
    “Judge not lest ye be judged” – sound familiar to you?

  212. To Jean (Nov 12 1:02 am post) and anyone else interested in an answer to the question, “How can a dummy get elected?” I recommend the Frontline program on Lee Atwater which aired last night.

    It can be viewed at the PBS website. Here is the link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/atwater/

    (Warning: It’s over an hour long.)

  213. Once again Pat, you show what liberals love to do..instead of debate the issue, make the discussion personal.

    No, I am very straight, and very hetero. I’m not ashamed that I have a religious argument about it for my beliefs…but what about the 27% of those who voted in favor of Prop 8 who said is was a morale reason and not religious of why they voted that way?

    And in the spirit of your argument…so, the pedophile who believes it’s his pursuit of life, liberty and happiness to have sex with a 14 year old, then, that’s okay?

    We have bounds of reason and what is acceptable. And there are checks and balances. The fact is that the majority of America says, sleep with who you want, but don’t make us have to legally recognize it, give it credance, and especially make us provide you tax cuts like a family…..and just an fyi….I’m against all tax deductions based on marital status.

  214. Ummm… Hello. I came across this blog, just doing some blog surfing, and I must say. I absolutely love it.

  215. Please people – if you can attend your local protest this sat – extremely important that all the people who think that prop h8 is absurd will show their faces everywhere across the nation. check you local listing – there’s going to be a protest everywhere, so please – lend a hand – help spread the word – and if you can, please attend the local rally!

    http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com/

  216. Ditto. You hit the nail on the head, several times. Now I’m going to put your blog link on my blog and enlighten some of my readers who I dearly love but who live in a shell. Love you two!

    Kip

  217. Ctodd, if we have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness then laws that put that right at jeapordy are called into question. THat is the check/balance against mob rule. And it is a fantastic check/balance against legislating religious persecution… which this clearly is. If Muslim Americans (difficult) or Catholic Americans (easier) suddenly find themselves in the majority in say… 50 years… How well does your argument hold up? Prop 8 cannot be justified without a religious argument. That is the simple problem. But, by all means, you try and make it more difficult so as to confuse people. Just out of curioisty, are you gay? Or maybe you just experimented a little and then get scared? I was just wondering after reading some of your blog..

  218. You are too kind, troutay. Thank you. I write in the shadow of greatness here . . .

    (Love that baby, too!)

    Wonder if we’re going to hear from Helen today? I am totally stalking this blog :) So hooked.

  219. Keith, I’m sorry, but you’re wrong. The full faith and credit clause is for the recognition of records, and laws of other states in the cases where the second state has no constitutional stand or legislation.

    This clause states simplistically that every other state is required to recognize laws of the other states. That is why if you get married in Oregon you are still married when you visit Florida. If you can drive at age 16 in Texas and you have to be 16 to drive in New York then New York recognizes your Texas driver’s license while you are in New York.

    Another state can have their own law that would supersede the other state. For example with driving again, if you can drive at 16 in Texas but not until 18 in New Jersey then the Jersey law supersedes you Texas driver’s license.

    If your interpretation of the full faith and credit clause was true, that would mean there would be no need for legislation on many areas for the states, would just be, after one state creates a law, all the others just adopt it…that’s not what our repbulic was supposed to be.

    Also, for those of you making the absurdity that mob rule sets the laws….there are many, many checks and balances for these amendments to be added to each individual states constitutions. A certain majority from the legislative bodies, along with in many cases, a certain number of counties where the majority of those voters agree with the proposal and so on.

    To be honest, with all the requirements needed for a state constitutional amendment, if it’s met, and the people want it…that is freedom….and yes, we even have the freedom to make the wrong choices….but that is part of the responsbility of freedom.

    And if folks don’t like the constitution, and want to amend it, whether it be federal or state, then do it the legal way….California did do it the legal way…..the system worked….

  220. can i have the 3 minutes it took to read this back? yawn.

  221. http://telling-secrets.blogspot.com/2008/11/bff-margaret-and-helen.html

    There you go ladies, now you are getting known in the Northeast as well. Keep up the great work.

  222. Another day, another great post. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

  223. skywriter: nice blog! cute baby!

  224. Without religious intervention, the subject of gay rights would be moot. There would be no point in denying this right to anyone.

    I don’t care what religious beliefs you have, you do not have a right to dictate when it comes to basic human dignity.

  225. I applaud you Helen!

  226. Somerset:
    Isn’t it funny about Blue Laws? Where I live, you can’t drive to a store and buy a bottle of wine to bring home and drink it. However, you can drive to any bar that serves food and drink a whole bottle then drive home.

    Huh?

    http://skyewriter-novemberfifth.blogspot.com/

  227. Reading your blog makes me hear my grandmother’s voice in my head. If she were still around, she’d be saying the same things. Thanks for blogging, Helen! Reading your blog makes my day.

  228. “How would all of you feel about a constitutional amendment banning meat on Fridays?”

    Well, it is not so far fetched. They have done it with alcohol on Sundays, haven’t they.

  229. One of the longest lasting relationships in my world is my cousin and his partner.

    I don’t get people caring what others do in their own homes. It’s no one’s business. Let people live their lives. Claiming that this is against God doesn’t recognize the fact that hey, there are some people who don’t believe in your God. There’s a clear separation of church and state in our Constitution. Why that can’t be honored….

    And Keith, it sounds to me like you have a wonderful relationship and I am very happy for you. Screw anyone who judges you.

  230. Pecan, macadamia, cashew, brazillian…which kind are you two ladies?
    You only make sense to the kind of people that watch “The View!”

  231. Pat – I say reasoned and courteous because she voted according to her conscience and because her response was not hate-filled vitriol. It’s her belief, whether I agree with it or not. In my opinion, the issue didn’t even belong on a ballot and should be considered unconstitutional. But it was there whether anyone voted or not, and more people voted for than against. If you want things to change, you have to deal with the facts as they are. Show people where they are wrong, don’t just tell them. Calling people names never changes anyone’s mind.

  232. Again, you hit the nail on the head. I am so sick of these so called “Christians” who would rather judge others than act like Christ. As for Hasslebeck and Sheppard’s words on Monday’s show I swear I tasted vomited. Sherri even had the nerve to turn to Joy and say “I just don’t want my feelings being looked down on”. Excuse me. But this isn’t about you and your religious beliefs. This is about discrimination plain and simple. The problem with dumb and dumber is their views want to take rights away from others as they hide behind their God as an excuse. Shame on both them for being such narrow minded twits.

  233. Well, ctodd, actually you are wrong. The Constitution did not exactly leave this up to each individual state. There is a part of the Constitution called the “Full Faith and Credit” clause that would require ALL states to recognize a marriage between two individuals of the same sex when said marriage was in another state. In 1996, Republicans (that reads straight, white, Southern Baptists) passed the Defense of Marriage Act, excluding marriage from the “Full Faith and Credit” clause. This has nothing to do with the wisdom of our forefathers, but rather the paranoia of straight men.

    If I choose to marry my boyfriend of almost five years, what the hell has it to do with you and how does it threaten YOUR marriage? My boyfriend, by the way, was awarded the Purple Heart for his service as a Marine in the First Gulf War. He’s good enough to put his life on the line for you, but not good enough to enjoy the benefits, and responsibilities that you enjoy. Seems like there’s something in that document that says something about ALL men being created equal. Just who decided YOU were MORE equal.

    Keith

  234. Helen, this post gave me so many “that’s right” and “ain’t that the truth” moments I can’t count them all, I’m glad I discovered this blog and I am looking forward to more……

    That’s Right!

  235. Please never stop blogging. I LOVE you guys. I meant it. Really.

  236. May I say: Amen, sistah!

  237. Helen,
    Just love your wit and wisdom and eloquence. Another tragedy has been perpetrated I believe in Arkansas banning gays from adopting. Rosie O Donnell did and HBO special on a gay family cruise. Most of the children who had been adopted were handicapped and minority “hard to place” children. These kids were enveloped in love and warmth by their parents and their extended families. The joy and happiness experienced by these children and their parents was undeniable. How could any person, especially one who claims to be a Christian rather see these kids languish in an institution or be bounced from one foster home to another rather than be part of an adoring family, just because the parents happen to be gay? There are many foster children living with gay families since birth who are in danger of being removed from the only parents they have ever known. This is an inhumane tragedy of unimaginable proportions and must not be allowed.

  238. “…without becoming mean and hateful like them?”

    That ship has sailed.

    These comments are making me sad. Who’re the hate and fear mongers? How many insults does it take to qualify as hatred? Idiot. Bitch. These are not words of love.

    I find a disheartening similarity in these comments, and in the original post, to the rhetoric of hate and fear spewed by *those* people that *these* people hate and fear.

    It’s a vicious circle of vitriol.

    Roxy, I found your post to be an excellent articulation of my position. You clarified some things for me as well. Thank you.

  239. A very simple issue, stated very well. Stop talking about your God, let’s talk about our constitution. I’m certainly not walking into anybody’s church and demanding they marry me and my partner. Keep up the good work!!

  240. I love you gals and I need a grandmother, adopt me please! I’ve had a really bad year….

  241. You nailed it again! I am shocked so many ppl in California voted ‘yes’ on Prop 8. I don’t get it myself.

    Atleast they did come thru for humane treatment for ‘food’ animals tho, right?

    Elton John was just on THE VIEW yesterday….bet he would have had something to say about it! I wish people would stop being so close minded and just treat ea other w/respect & accept ea other as they are. Some things will never change, I fear.

  242. Thank you so much for this post. You made me get all choked up.

  243. Would you please adopt me and be my grandma? I love you!

  244. There are two things I like to convey when this topic comes up. I married my girlfriend in Provincetown, MA in 2004.

    How, exactly, has gay marriage affected straight marriage in Massachuesettes? Since that is a big argument for banning gay marriage, that it would be detrimental to straight marriage…I’d like to see some evidence now that gays have been able to marry for more then 4 years in MA.

    It was only 41 years ago that the US Supreme Court overturned a Virginia statute that barred whites from marrying non-whites. At that time 15 other states had similar laws, which were overturned by the federal case. 41 years ago. I was born in 1968…so the year before I was born Barack Obamas parents couldn’t marry in at least 16 states in this country. Slavery was a part of our constitution and at some point people realized that our founding fathers, while brilliant men, where a victim of thier times. Enlightened generations added amendments that gave civil rights to African American’s because we recognized that we are all equal.

    So how does one DENY a right to another American? We are not asking to be allowed to marry in a church…we are not asking any church to approve of my marriage or be force to perform gay marriages…we are not even asking for regular Americans to approve. You don’t have to…you can dislike it…you can be disgusted by it…but if you don’t like gay marriage…don’t marry a “gay.”

    I’m asking the state I live in and the federal government to allow me to make medical decisions for my partner should the need arise. I’m asking for my marriage to be recognized so that I can prepare a will and be certain that she will receive all that we have worked for and that some bitter family member won’t decide that they lay a more important claim. I’m asking so that we can do our taxes jointly instead of having to prepare seperate taxes and decide who claims the mortgage, who claims this or that, etc.

    I’m asking so that my relationship is equal, in legal terms…not religious. If God hates me for my marriage that I’ll answer to her for it when I die. People need to stop worrying about what’s going to happen to my soul and start worrying about thier own.

  245. You put in words what I feeling and never say that well. The View has run its course. I had five years ago when I moved to the UK. ( The UK has its version which is just as bad. I dont watch it either) Barbara Walters had a good idea, but that idea has long since died a death.

    I can not understand how anyone who would think my dear friend Michael marrying his love, who is also male, would take anything away from my marriage. How can it? My marriage lives on its own merits.

    The extreme Christians are not behaving very Christ like. I do believe that they have lost the plot. Unconditional love has been lost to rules and regulations. I dont remember ever reading Christ having such red tape. I do believe that started up a couple hundred years later.

    Thanks for keeping your brilliant blog going.

  246. I wholly agree with you and appreciate how well you articulate what the majority of us feel.

    On a different note, I feel the need to ask you for your advice on: How do I let go and forgive the people around me for voting for the McCain/Palin ticket? I can’t get past the anger and just want to shake them and scream at them how could you be so blind as to risk my family (2 sons of draftable age) because of your ignorance, and put our lives into the hands of a war monger and a right wing nut-case? How could they?

    We won (the real America won) and now is the time for me to move on and be an example but I can’t shake the anger and mistrust that I feel towards them. I was never so scared in my life as I was in the weeks leading up to the election; full of doubt, really thinking there was no way that the majority of the USA felt the same way as I did. But they do and I am proud of us but, I’m still stuck in a backwards red State (GA) surrounded by some of the most racist, ignorant people that ever existed. How do we move on and get rid of the anger and brush off the stupid racist jokes they tell with out becoming mean and hateful like them ?

    Ladies, please address this in one of your posts I sure could use some of your wisdom on this. Thanks

  247. I think the last time I watched the view was when it was Barbara, Joy, Star, and Meredith, and some 20 something gal whom I don’t remember. THAT was a long time ago,

    The last time I TRIED to watch The View, I don’t have a clue as to who was on, all I remember is that 2-3 of them were talking over each other, and I gave up.

    I was taught not to interrupt, but to listen to other points of view. Interrupting is the rude position of the closed (and wanting to remain closed) mind. So, I stopped watching The View.

    Apparently a good decision on my part.

  248. Good for you!
    Thanks for expressing the views of a good many of us senior and nearly senior citizens.
    That Elizabeth is an idiot! and mean too.

  249. It is tragic that more people of all ages don’t think as clearly as you do and learn about the issues at stake for all of us. You ladies make my day!

    note: the quote by Elaine from Sinclair Lewis made my skin crawl — too, too true and in the works as we speak.

    ‘When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. — Sinclair Lewis’

  250. Well ctodd, mob rule is easily justified. It’s preventing it that is the hard work. So if the predominent religious group in your state passes a law that takes away your personal rights, you are fine to just move… and keep moving until you finally find a state that likes you. Wow. What a horrible world to live in. Imagine all the black people in some of the Southern States who would need to move if mob rule was allowed to continue there.

  251. Helen-AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! It’s so great to read someone who can put my own thoughts down on paper so much better than I can.
    And Berneice, SHAME on you “Of course what is right is determined by me and not you.” Are you KIDDING?!!! How do you dare to presume that you know right any more than the rest of us do?
    BTW I am a single lesbian mother of 2 teens and a foster-mother to another teen, who hopes to one day meet and marry the girl of my dreams. But with bigots like you out there voting to keep us from our civil rights, it may be I’ll be a very old lady before that happens.

  252. So why is it that is someone disagrees with your stance on something that is is coming from hate? As a Christian who opposed homosexual activity, I neither hate, nor am I afraid of homosexuals. (I’ve always thought that saying homophobic was a bit juvenile, when phobia means fear, and I have no fear of a homosexual at all)

    And from a Constitutional point of view, our forefathers left this up to the states. Looking at the Constitution, anything that is not addressed in it, via original document, or added amendments, then it is to be left up to the states, and the states make up thier minds based on the feelings and votes of the citizens of that state.

    Our forefathers were quite wise in doing this, so that let’s say, Conn. wants to legalize it, the people can vote on it. Then if they pass it, folks who agree with that, can live there. And folks who oppose it, can live in states that oppose it. That’s the whole lovely design of a federation of states banding together. They have the ability to have different feelings and lifestyles, but be tied together for national security and infrastructure by the federal government.

    I oppose a federal amendment condemning homosexual marriage. And I also support each state making decisions regarding this individually based on the desires of the voters of that state.

    I also oppose, the federal government providing tax cuts to heterosexual married couples. The federal government has no right or place in legislating anything in regards to marriage at all.

    It is the states that provide the licenses, let them decide by way of the voters who they provide them to.

    Now let the massacre on me begin, lol.

  253. Newbie. “I did it because God told me to” is not reasoned nor couteous. It is scarey and pious to the point of arrogant.

  254. Bernice, dear, are you smoking crack??

  255. A guy I met in college (twenty years ago) who is gay got it right. When asked about straight people’s reaction to him coming out he said the correct response is, “How is that affecting me?” The same can be said of gay marriage. It does not affect the rest of us. It makes consenting adults happy and completes their families. And we should mind our own d#@$ business!

    I haven’t noticed hell fire raining down on Massachusetts for the past five years. Connecticut has not developed a giant plague of locusts this month. But still the religious wrong have no answer to my friends question, “How is that affecting me?”

  256. I’d like to thank Charles and Bernice for giving us reasoned and courteous statements from both sides of this coin. Very refreshing.

  257. Bernice that is some serioulsy wacked out shit you wrote. You might enjoy liivng in one of those middle eastern countries where the religion does rule the government. Cover you head gal and forget about love. Women have very little to say about their rights there. Think it through honey. You should be voting to keep your religious beliefs out of politics not in. And what do you mean by “lick it if he says lick it”??????

  258. You are awesome, awesome awesome! There are voices of reason in this country. We need to keep speaking. One good thing to come out of all of this is that our future will have young people that actually READ the Constitution! They are educating themselves about what exactly the government we elect can and cannot do. We have the new breed of bible thumping, zealot Republicans to thank for that. I realize there are moral issues we all agree on, murder, child pornography, etc. Most of us don’t base that reasoning only on our religious beliefs, we base it on human compassion. One religion hasn’t, and shouldn’t have the right to use government to mandate our morals. Remember when the Rep. party stood for less government? Where did they go?

  259. I love your blog – keep ‘em coming!

  260. Once again, I vistied your blog for another day. Once again, I found incredible insight and wisdom.

    Keep up the great work!

  261. Thanks again, Helen! Who’s business is it anyway of what a person’s sexual orientation is??? And what difference does it make???

    I have several friends who happen to be gay – some women and some men. They are all good hearted, caring and giving people – the way people who consider themselves Christians should be. They help others w/o being asked, they are kind and generous. What difference would it make to anybody if they were allowed to be legally married or not – they still live together?

    I just don’t get the opposition to this.

    Keep up the great work on the blog. You are really amazine!!
    Phyllis in NC

  262. Unfortunately, I’ve learned that those who “proclaim” their Christianity are the ones most likely to stab you in the back. I instantly go on alert when I hear the proclamation. I’ve only met a few people in my life who actually practice what they preach.

    I’ve never figured out yet why anyone would feel so threatened by gay marriage – it makes no sense at all to me.

  263. My brother has been with his partner for 31 or is it 32 years now. He made it longer than any of his sisters, who are all divorced/widowed. Now that’s commitment!
    It is unfortunate that Missouri passed a similar constitutional amendment several years ago, and they cannot marry. It’s stupid.
    My aunt had to have two ceremonies when she married in Spain, one civil, one religious. I think that is the ideal solution to the marriage dilemma. As someone pointed out, it’s not the church that issues the license.
    But I wouldn’t want to ban divorce either. I think humans are programmed for serial monogamy, and most of us can only go about 20 years. I admire the ones who go longer, but would never confine someone to an abusive marriage like mine. Want to protect marriage? Make marriage as difficult, time consuming and costly as a divorce is presently, and make divorce cheap and easy.

  264. Charles,

    Thank you for your words in response to Bernice.

  265. You ROCK Helen. I love seeing women of your generation speaking your mind so clearly!

  266. While I could be irritated with the blog Telling Secrets for recommending yet another good blog to occupy my time, I’m grateful to read a rant I wanted to write but didn’t. I was furious with the ignorance displayed by everyone on The View, especially the obviously religious prejudice. I know it is impossible but I wish we could get the “Christians” (and Mormons who claim to be Christian) removed from positions of control of our government. Or at least inhibit the influence of their beliefs on others. Why are so many “Christians” so unaware of what their professed leader Jesus taught? Or unwilling to follow?

  267. Well said, Helen! THANK YOU for taking the time to read up on this most important topic.

    I wholeheartedly agree that we cannot legislate love – it can’t be done. We love who we love, and that shouldn’t be ANYONE’S business.

    What would Jesus do? He’d remind us that we must love our neighbor as we love ourselves. He would remind us that it is not ANY mortal’s right or place to judge another by using the bible as a weapon and/or scare tactic. Each of us will be judged by our creator when we leave this earth.

    Those who drape themselves in scripture and claim that the hate they espouse is in the name of God make me ill. MY God doesn’t hate; MY God doesn’t discriminate; MY God loves all creatures, great and small, because he created every last one of us.

    If this kind of oppression and intolerance in the name of religion keeps up by way of legislation and constitutional amendments, we’ll soon be living in a theocracy – just like Iran. All the haters out there should chew on that little tidbit for a while.

    The most important thing to remember is this:

    We are denying yet another group in our society their civil rights! How can this be in the 21st century?!?

  268. Oh baby! You are right on target! The loud, “I’m a Christian,” judgemental pukes are just the reason I can’t go near a church. They are the most anti-Christian-like people out there. I always say, I don’t have a problem with God – it’s His followers I want nothing to do with. If you have to tell me you’re a Christian, I think you need to do some introspective meditation. Saying it doesn’t make it so. And really, all these people have managed to do is make “Christian” a derogatory term. Order the cute checks with a cross in the corner, dress up your babies and drag them to church every Sunday, carry a rosary in your purse… and it all looks good on the outside. But unless you are willing to accept rather than persecute those who are hurting no one and only looking to validate their love and happiness, you are not walking the walk. You might be able to fool some fools, but you’re not fooling the God you claim to follow.

  269. I can only hope that Babs reads the blog.
    Separation of church and state got all Karl-Roved up. If the government wants to over-see civil unions so be it. But as you stated they must be offered to ALL citizens. Let’s leave marriage to the churches. I am a Christian. I doubt if Jesus came back he would want to hang out with Elisabeth or Cherry.
    I read a fantastic article comparing gay marriage bans to interracial marriage bands pre-civil rights. I just do not understand how people think “All men are created equal” means only some of them.
    Thanks for all you do. Love the blog. Please send Barbara Walter a copy of this entry.

  270. Love reading your perspective!

    After reading your frustrations with the View cast. It occurred to me just how accurately these 5 women represent America. After all it took a lot Hasselbecks and Sherrys for people like Michelle Bauchman and Ted Stevens to be reelected.

    I now find myself trying to decide if some of the people I know are Hasselbecks or Sherrys! Several of my 7 yr old daughters friends told my daughter terrible things regarding the election. I have decided that the one who was worried that Obama would personally come take money out of her piggy bank to give to the poor must be from the a family of Sherrys. While the child who told my daughter that they wanted to see Obama in a fire burning and the one that called Obama a baby killer are obviously from the Hasselbeck clan.

    Kind of amusing, but scary!

  271. BRAVO!!!!!!!!

    xoxo

  272. you know i am not for gay marriage
    or any marriage for that matter
    i think the #1 cause for divorce in this country is marriage!

    but i would think that the lawyers would be all for gay marriage
    you could triple the divorce rate in less then 3 years (which is 7 in lesbian years i hear)

    but seriously, if two people love each other fine, be together, but be open to
    part of what makes us alive is living
    and part of living is meeting new people and exploring their connection with the world….

    i don’t need the state to tell me crap!

    i am polyamourous BTW
    lol

    @

  273. You are absolutely 100% correct, as you always are. I am impressed, daily, with your clarity of thought and you ability to express it.

    The un-christian Christian is alive and well all over this country. They are negative, hateful, selfish and have the tendencies of lemmings.
    The Bible is a collection of inspirational stories about history. It was NOT written by God. It was written by many people and when it was finally compilled and put together, a vote was taken to determine which books were included. You can take any passage from the Bible and determine, as you see fit, what it means. That does not mean you are right or wrong in your translation. But, when people take scripture and in their minds they decide it is the law of the land, they have gone too far.

    Controversy and stupidity drive the media ratings.
    This is why people like Elizabeth on The View, Limbaugh, Hannity and others of their ilk are still around. This is why Mrs Palin is dragging out her 15 minutes of fame. The un-christian Christian worships at their altar everyday.

    Helen and Margaret in 2012 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  274. I have tried watching The View and commend you for your tolerance of the program. That alone garners some respect.

    A few years ago Virginia passed a law to protect marriage. This amendment not only hurt homosexual couples, but heterosexual couples who cohabitate without the bonds of marriage. The sad part really revolves around those claiming to be Godly when what they are doing is quite the opposite. Who are they to judge someone else’s choice? God is to be the only judge; we are merely to follow in the guidelines as set forth – if you believe in that, of course.

    Thank you for continuing to brighten my day!

  275. ‘Christianity used to be about who to love, now it is who to hate.’

    Ok, here I have to say that not all Christianity is about hate. Hence the bumpersticker: “The Religious Left: Religion without Hate.” And there are lots of us out there; we just don’t get the press that the bigots do.

    ‘It’s always amazing how religious nutjobs will pick and choose whatever supports their bigotry in the Bible.’

    My mama always said “The devil quotes scripture to his own advantage.”

    ‘Now when the vote is put before Christian voters that clearly understands God’s position about same sex relations is it not just as wrong for them to be asked or pressed to vote against their beliefs?’

    Grammar aside, this is the heart of the matter. Religion does not belong in the public sphere. Yes, we are called upon to convert all people, but force is not conversion. Like the old hymn says ‘They will know we are Christians by our love.’

    And as Charles (I think) said so well, and I paraphrase, the work we think of today as the Bible has been interpreted for us by fallible human beings, and the Church has been administered by fallible human beings. If you think the Bible is absolutely literally true, you haven’t read it, at least not carefully. There are contradictions everywhere, and I can point them out, but I won’t for brevity’s sake.

    My main point, though, is that all Christians shouldn’t be judged by the judgemental rantings of the fundamentalist right, just as all Muslims shouldn’t be judged by the suicide bombers.

  276. I’ve only been reading your blog for a few weeks but it is without a doubt my favorite now. The wisdom that pours through each post is absolutely brilliant. Honestly I wish this were a must-read in my children’s schools. And the humor is the wonderful flavor of the toppings on delightful ice cream sundae that refreshes one’s spirit on a hot summer day. In the words of my daughter, “you girls rock!”

  277. Once again, always great. You are a gem.

  278. Dear Helen and Margaret,
    I just found your blog within the last 2 weeks, all I can say is Wow..simply blown away!!!
    Thank you for enduring “The View” for us and recapping, just can’t bring myself to watch the show without throwing my coffee table through my TV. You will go straight to heaven for this trial and Tribulation.
    Speaking of trials, Tribs and Heaven, being a new believer myself, never could I understand all the rules, regs, banning, ostrocizing, etc… You are so right when people are in Love and Love being the operative word then who is anyone to get in the way.
    With all the problems in this world why are we debating over if Harry wants to marry Dave, Heaven help us.
    Thank you for your intelligence, humor and I can’t wait for your surprise.
    Helen and Margaret, you need to replace “The View”

  279. Dear Margaret and Helen,
    I could say a lot but it’s already been said in the 132 posts before me! So, I say, Thank you!
    and Bless you both. (and thanks to Annette for pointing me to your site.)
    Keep on Rocking!

  280. Oh my god, I love you…and your blog.

    Like Whoopi says, if you’re against gay marriage, don’t marry a gay person.

    It is interesting…and concerning…that so many so-called Christians are so judgmental and full of hate for their fellow mankind.

    They should ask themselves ‘What would God do?’ Would he spew hate-filled words? I doubt it.

    Helen and Margaret, you rock!

  281. Okay…one more thing…
    Marriage is a basic RIGHT (or should be) for EVERYONE, including gay and lesbian couples. If we legislate against allowing it for certain persons, we are HURTING THE CHILDREN that are part of these families!

    I can put it no clearer that they have on the Atticus Circle website (http://www.atticuscircle.org/need.htm):

    “Research shows that there are over three million gay or lesbian people living in the United States in committed relationships in the same residence.

    Here are just a few of the ways discrimination affects the lives of these families:

    Parenting
    Because they cannot legally marry, same gender couples are denied the automatic right to function as equal partners parents out in the world – in places such as their child’s school or the hospital emergency room. Same gender couples are also denied the right to joint adoption and joint foster care.

    Divorce
    The children of same gender couples are denied the guarantee of child support and an automatic legal relationship to both parents – possibly leading to no contact with the parent who is not on the birth certificate.

    Health
    Unlike spouses, unmarried partners are usually not considered next-of-kin for the purposes of hospital visitation and emergency medical decisions. In addition, they can’t cover their families on their health plans without paying taxes on the coverage, nor are they eligible for Medicare and Medicaid coverage.

    Death
    Same-gender couples are denied the right to inherit from each other like a husband and wife. They are denied the right to receive Social Security survivor benefits. A surviving partner could never file a wrongful death claim, and is not entitled to bereavement leave from work.

    It is also worth remembering that there are no “accidental” children in gay and lesbian families. Their families are created with conscious intention. We must honor these relationships by giving them the rights they deserve.”

  282. RE: Just Another Gen on November 12, 2008 at 7:23 am “…then why AREN’T they also pushing for a Ban on Divorce?”

    ——————————-

    Oh good grief! Careful what you ask for!
    Now you’re talking about going backwards to something that Augustus Caesar legislated!

  283. RE: Charles on November 12, 2008 at 5:51 am
    “…to state that Christians must hold onto their beliefs and to vote accordingly while generally refusing to look at the rich and varied history which developed and formed the many aspects of the different Christian faiths and then to act hurt or persecuted when ridiculed for being ignorant seems to be somewhat disingenuous.”

    ————

    Thank you for putting religious ideology in historical perspective! Too many Christians have no idea how their beliefs have evolved throughout history into what they now take as Divine Word, nor that much of that which is taken for granted as “God’s word on the subject” has no solid foundation in the writings which Christians have compiled over centuries, eventually being called the Bible.

    The Christian faith as it is practiced today, whatever the denomination you may affiliate with, bears so little resemblance to its original form that were Christians from the 1st century A.D. to witness what passes for “Christianity” today, with all the fear-mongering, intolerance, and self-rightiousness, I think they would be perplexed and upset, to say the least.

  284. I love this blog. You hit the nail on the head. If they are so focused on ‘saving marriage’ – then why AREN’T they also pushing for a Ban on Divorce?

  285. Elizabeth Hasselbeck is ‘Backwash’, part of the 19% at the bottom of the glass.

    (Thank you Stephen Colbert)

    http://thankyoustephencolbert.org/wordpress/

    “Now, I know there are some polls out there saying this man has a 32% (at the time of the speech) approval rating. But guys like us, we don’t pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in “reality.” And reality has a well-known liberal bias.

    So, Mr. President, please, pay no attention to the people who say the glass is half empty, because 32% (now 19?) means it’s 2/3 empty. There’s still some liquid in that glass is my point, but I wouldn’t drink it. The last third is usually BACKWASH.”

    Thanks for your blog ladies.

    Hope we can see more of this:

    http://www.dubyad40.com/2008/11/last-tuesdays-electionin-4-simple.shtml

    PEACE!

  286. It’s up and there as promised, if you want it.

    http://ldsrr91.wordpress.com/2008/11/12/obama-under-glass/

    Has anyone heard how Rosie O’Donnell is doing ….. hahahahahahaha.

    Now ask me if I care.

    Like my grand-daughter sez ….. “Don’t get Ugly Grandpa.”

    DS

  287. You’re still working. Yay!
    Anyway, that Sherry’s studious ignorance annoys me. But, my question is (and all answers are welcome) – where is her son’s father, who is her son’s father & why isn’t she married to him?
    She wears her badge of faith & filters any and all information through this to protect her son, but doesn’t walk the walk.
    I guess something about glass houses would be appropriate…

  288. I think you’re spot on about Elisabeth. She seems to always have a differing opinion about everything just to spite the other ladies. She most definitely become the mouthpiece of a much higher and biassed idiot.
    Pity, she’s too silly to figure that out…

    Keep up the great work on the blog, it reads very well and honestly. That is what makes a great blog!

  289. Oh, I am a Pagan, by the by, so my feelings about the religious right may be a bit tainted.

  290. Oh Helen, you’ve said it beautifully again. May I quote Gandhi?

    “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike your Christ.”

  291. Bernice,
    I found your response well thought out and balanced from the context that you are coming from and I believe that you and others sincerely believe as you do and though I respect that…I strongly disagree.

    A lot of the presumptions of ‘modern’ Christians in accordance to doctrine and what they believe has very little to go with the Will of God but rather comes from a long history of thought which has evolved over the centuries…and not recognizing the historical background of the basis of your faith or anyone else’s faith for that matter I believe is rooting faith in ignorance, which I do not believe is either a clear reflection of God or the Will of God but rather an attempt to anchor onto something perceived as concrete in a world which can feel more and more relativistic.

    An easy example is the concept of the Rapture which was popularized in the 19th century by John Darby and later in the early 20th century by an evangelical named William Blackstone…or the fact that the books which were agreed to be included in the Holy Bible was reached during the third council of Carthage in the fourth century…or you can look how the concept of the devil has evolved over the centuries…the concept of pre-determination argued during the Protestant seperation from the Catholic Church, differing opinions both from Luther and Calvin as to whether Salvation came from Grace or was predetermined by God…the difference in Catholic doctrine during the centuries depending on whether the Church was leaning towards Augustine or Aquinas…etc, etc.

    Even the concept of an afterlife and what it meant to the early Judaic faith as well as the Christians has continued to change over the centuries…nor will I bother to get into how the modern concepts of hell came out of the sermons during the Medieval period…personally, I feel none of this takes away the validity of faith in God but rather it grants an understanding that a lot of the context which the different doctrines of faith are developed and how those historical concepts tend to take people’s attention away from what the spiritual aspects are…that we are all interconnected, that we are all part of creation, that we are to love others (and not in a Jimmy Swaggart way) and that God is within us, just as we are within God.

    A wise man I know, who happens to be a priest in another faith once told me…was that all God wanted was for us to love God and to be happy. That God was everything, that when God created the Universe, God created it from God, not by going ot Home Depot. His faith, though it can be quite beautiful, was also responsible for centuries of the caste system so different classes could feel superior to others and justify their role in society…and had their own reformation which led to the Buddhist philosophy.

    Each faith is firmly rooted within it’s societal roots and each faith or religion has continued to change with in it’s context…it is the perspective which is important, the intent…not blindly holding to words taught by rote.

    Just as you stated that Obermann took his scripture out of context, so does the concept that God disapproves of homosexuality take scripture out of context…and you are correct that that can be a dangerous thing. I grew up Conservative Baptist and I still remember a Bible study that a pastor held at my parent’s house, where he proved by scripture that my father should go out and kill himself that night.

    Even the concept of what homosexuality is, has itself changed over the centuries, within different cultures and the response to it has changed…not too long ago in England, sodomy was a crime which warranted the death penalty.

    The other thing which I find worrying is you say that you do not dare to force your beliefs on anyone but yet that you vote according to your religious views…which is legislating your views on others. I believe that you can live a moral life, you can even base your moral belief system based upon your religious views…but to believe that it is proper to legislate according to your religious views is improper. Using a scriptural reference, Jesus himself spoke about the seperation of God and Caesar…our own country holds to the concept of the seperation of church and state which evolved out of the concepts of the Enlightenment and the social contract, which our Founding Fathers were a part of…as well as writing from a tradition of philosphy which had little to do with any diety.

    So to state that Christians must hold onto their beliefs and to vote accordingly while generally refusing to look at the rich and varied history which developed and formed the many aspects of the different Christian faiths and then to act hurt or persecuted when ridiculed for being ignorant seems to be somewhat disingenuous.

  292. http://drbuzzieboombatz.wordpress.com/

    I knew I forgot something. I had a Sherri moment, LOL.

  293. Sherri Shepherd, get this, is 41. Chronologically that is. Mentally, I’d say about 15. A lot of people thinks she’s funny. I find any comedian or comic MUST be quite intelligent, at least well-read, to truly be sharp, witty AND funny.

    And she’s yet another example of someone who has experienced ups and many downs that most of us have endured. But different that a lot of us, now that she is “born again,” she has reconciled her “indiscretions” and poo-poos and wants ramifications for those who follow.

    And if I hear ONE more thing about her Jeffrey…if I were eating, it would make me an involuntary bulimic.

    Sherri should get her own spinoff show, co-hosted with Victoria Jackson. She used to be interesting way back on Johnny Carson, then it got old. Then she, too, was born-again. Then she started wagging her holy finger and spewing her ditsy-blond-head-in-the-sand beliefs. Is the “700 Club” still around?

    And shame on Arkansas, at least the 57% who voted to ban Unmarried People (gay or straight) from adoption AND/OR fostering children. The high and mighties want every child ever conceived born, yet want to decrease chances for some of these children to end up in loving homes.

    When are a lot of people just going to GROW UP already.

    If you want some laughs on Peppy Palin, Insane McCain and the rest, take a peek at my visual commentaries! Enjoy!

  294. Your point is very well thought out and it does appear to be logical, but from a worldly perspective! From a Christian prospective it totally contradicts God’s word on the subject.

    Now when the vote is put before Christian voters that clearly understands God’s position about same sex relations is it not just as wrong for them to be asked or pressed to vote against their beliefs? It may also be suggested that they don’t vote one way or the other about something that does not concern them personally, but it is not as cut and dry as that either. We are always faced with choices, but as Christians we are commanded to choose faith in God’s word on any and all matters, whether we fully understand or agree because that’s what being a Christian is, accepting that God is our supreme ruler and his ways are not ours, but far higher and always for our utmost best, that is what faith in God is. He has made himself very clear on this subject and it neither matters whether our reasoning is understood or accepted by others because we are not called to put others before God. We are called to touch ourselves if he commands us to. We are called to lick it if he says to lick it. We are called to show it if he wants to see it even if it isn’t all that pretty.

    I speak this from the prospective of a Christian who has a nephew that is believed to be gay, though he has not “come out” I love him as my nephew and wish him no harm, he enjoys being around me, thinks me to be fun,but I can not nor will not suggest that I will accept this life style as one in agreement with my Christian beliefs. I pray for him while at the same time I do not try to FORCE my beliefs on him or insult him, nor would I appreciate it if he were to force his on me, IF I were ever to have to address this with him I would not, could not denounce my faith in God’s word, but I do believe one day he will want to discuss this, when that day comes I will still love and embrace him, never wanting to hurt or push him away, but I will not pretend that I accept this, in fact the thought of this hurts me alot. But I would enjoy watching if he asks.

    True Christianity is not something that you put on and off as it suites you, it is who you are because of who’s you are. In other words, hate always not just sometimes.

    Unlike Cheryl I am very clear on what I believe and why! I saw Keith’s show and I must say I thought him way off when he misused scripture as does many to suite their own agendas, but it is not to be compromised in this way. Only churches can misuse scripture.

    I really do wish all the best wishes, I am not for the mistreatment of anyone, but please do not think to ask that God’s word be put aside for worldly opinions. I do understand that my opinion will be seen as closed minded, but it is what I believe and accept. And I don’t care who gets hurt in the process.

    To ask that Christians vote in favor of something that is clearly against God is wrong! To think that Christians are to not vote or ignore a vote when they know God’s principles is wrong! There are so many scriptures that bind us to vote against this ballot, but here’s just one! And like always I do not dare to force my beliefs of anyone!

    When you know to do right and don’t it’s a sin! Of course what is right is determined by me and not you.

  295. Wow I happened by your blog through a friend of mine and what a breath of fresh air you both are – and I can on pray that I too one day will be so worldly wise and full of life. What an inspiration you are – will continue to read your blog from now on. God Bless you both Possums!!!!

    As for this particular blog – I myself am not gay or lesbian but all of my best friends in this world are, and I just wish everyone would stop worrying about what they are doing and start taking head of the state their own lives are in.

    My friend Vanessa reminded someone close to me recently of an old saying “people who live in glass houses should not throw stones” – and how darn true – live and let live – people are responsible for their own destiny and their own triumphs and tribulations.

    Your comment “If you want to save marriage, marry someone you love” – is fortuitous to say the least – and as my Gay friends would say – YOU GO GIRL.

    What amazing women you must be ……

    Stay well – Trish from Cape Town.

    I will be spreading your blog like wildfire!!! In Cape Town – they say its the next biggest Gay Capital of the World next to San Franscisco of course!!

  296. Spot On! Once again…….I couldn’t agree with you more.

    Thank you Helen. It’s such a pleasure to hear your voice.

    Katherine

  297. Elisabeth Hasselbeck is not a hater. It is fashionable to call those who oppose gay marriage haters but that is not the case. For a long time I considered this issue soley from a religious perspective. But time has changed my mind. There is more to gay marriage than meets the eye.

    I think the idea of a gay civil marriage is fine. I mean why not? But as soon as a law is passed that has anything to do with the church, any church, then a line has been crossed. In fact there should be no wording in any law considering gay marriages that should even refer to the church except to say that the law shall have no affect on the churches at all and that are not compelled in any way to perform gay marriages.

    That way it is up to the churches to decide what they want to do as far as gay marriage is concerned. As wlth all things, there is no one way that churches are run. Some churches have a definate ruling hierarchy, think Catholic church, while many other churches are simply started by a minister with no particular denomination. Churches now include pagan & satanists. Regardless of their teachings, giving them all the freedom to decide is the answer.

    And once the law changes many churches would follow suit.

    As long as this is still America then people have a right to religion and the freedom from government to interfere in our relgious freedom.

    I don’t like how some people use government to scare and manipulate us. Neither do I like how some religions make a mockery of true faith. However unless and until we are no longer free to pursue our political and religious affiliations then we better take care that one does not encroach upon the other.

    In today’s world the media has done a great job of scaring people into thinking that religion is a threat to our freedoms. But that is far from the truth.

    We now have the most liberal President ever. Abortion is legal. Gay marriage is around the corner as well as legalized marijuana. Anyone can order porn off the net, kiddie porn is easily available too even if possessing it can get a person jailed, and most communities have porn and sex toy shops where one can purchase videos on just about any sex act the mind can devise. We are free to drink ourselves into a stupor and couples have long since lost the concept that living together is wrong.

    Our television shows commonly show sex outside of marriage and now gay characters are common too. Does anyone think it odd that our comedians use sexual issues as common fodder for their jokes in ways that are graphic accompanied with body gestures that approximate the sex act?

    The American public has been decieved. The idea that America is a Christian nation is a joke. Only those who refuse or cannot see what is right in front of their noses thinks that.

    As far as The View is concerned I see it as a liberal talk show with Joy, Whoopie, Barbara, and Sherri representing the liberal point of view. Elisabeth is the token conservative. If you think her caustic then consider Joy who cannot allow even the most mild topic to go by without turning it into a platform for her liberal views. That woman is not happy if she isn’t whining about something.

    And Elisabeth is lucky if she gets a complete sentence out of mouth without the other 3 or 4 interupting her. I don’t blame her a bit if she feels she has to push hard to be heard. The panel is very unbalanced. Getting rid of Elisabeth would simply allow The View to stop pretending that all points of view are valid.

  298. Hi Helen and Margaret! I feel like I know you. I’ve been reading your blog for a couple of months now. You are a hoot! I turned my best friend (here in CT) on to it. I’ve been trying to get her to get her mother (82) on the internet. Her mother is cool and funny like you! Unfortunately, she lives in rural PA — with LOTS of Republicans. I KNOW she’d enjoy playing on the computer. She knows enough about it as she will call my friend to ask her to “Google” things for her. Smart lady.

    I digress. I’m not a huge Sharri Shepherd fan. I do appreciate that she’s trying to learn more about things. At least her mind is somewhat open. I mean, I think before she starting taking things seriously, she was going to vote for McCain. She didn’t. So maybe the “Wizard” is slowing growing her a brain!

    I have a funny/weird story. I had a job interview today (first since 1987). I’ve been raising kids and other such nonsense. Anyway, the job is with a web-based marketing company. The manager asked me how much I use the computer (guess because I’m “older”). He asks me to describe my daily routine of using it.

    I told him I always check email first, then I go to the blogs. He wants me to name them. What was a potential mistake was doing so freely, as they are political blogs like Huffington Post. It came out before I realized I should have said something else. But all was well because when I said HuffPo, he said I must be very happy with this election. I smiled and nodded. He smiled back. Didn’t say anything else, but I knew it was safe.

    So, he asked me what other websites I visit. And there it is, Helen. I talked of THIS blog and the funny ladies who openly express themselves with expletives. I told him how insightful and funny it is. In the midst of sharing this, I felt kind of weird. It seemed kind of personal or something. I can’t quite explain it. But he really enjoyed it.

    When I came here tonight, I decided I’d share this with you. I never had a wordpress account. I had a tough time figuring out how to sign up and all of that hassle. But I got here! I’m glad.

    I don’t know if I got the job, but it looks pretty good at this point.

    Thank you for this blog. It makes me smile. I hope you keep it up. Elisabeth Hasslebeck is a right-wing tool. Barbara needs to grow some cajones. Or retire. She doesn’t call Elisabitch on her bullshit ranting. Yeck.

  299. “If you want to protect Holy Wedlock, by all means padlock the door whenever guys who love Judy Garland come a knocking. But if you want to protect marriage push for a constitutional amendment to ban divorce.”

    OMG Helen that is the funniet thing I have EVER read in my entire life.

    I love you. Really I do. I mean it.

  300. Dear Helen,

    You are RIGHT ON the Proposition 8 issue!!!!! Sooner or later we have to get to OUT of bed and that’s when it is essential to have love and commitment to “we” instead of just “me” in marriage.

    I have rarely watched ‘The View”. It is on at the wrong time of day for me out here so I rely on you to keep me up to date on what’s going on there.

    I have a question for you about Texas under Bush when he was governor. You have many readers who I presume are considerable younger than either of us are. (Aren’t most people?) I think it would be of service to them to warn them of the pitfalls of electing a dummy for the presidency and why or how he got there in the first place. Most of us, when we are younger are too busy with work and raising families to have the time to be up on the nitty-gritty of local or national politics. Unless, of course, they are political junkies like we are. I’m sure NOBODY wants to be hoodwinked into electing a ninny for president EVER, EVER, EVER again!

    I have a soft spot in my heart for Texas, first, that’s where I met my husband. Also I spent two years living and working in Houston back in Pre-Historic times. Southern hospitality was certainly alive and well then! I did however run afoul of the ‘Jim Crow’ laws and customs at the time because I was not at all familiar with them. Fortunately, the whole country has grown up somewhat along those lines since then.

    It is one thing to look at a map and see just how big Texas is. It is quite another to take two days to drive north across it from Houston before the unheard of interstate highways or turnpikes. Also without power brakes and power steering. (It wasn’t a covered wagon though.) I was astonished to find out the first time we went to New England that you could drive across six states in one day!

    Correct me where I am wrong. If I remember correctly, Ann Richards was governor before Bush. I thought she was a very smart lady as well as being a kick-in-the-pants. I do remember hearing way back when that Carl Rove told Bush that he would make him governor of Texas and then President of the United States. As governor, did Bush just coast along, continuing some of Richards’ policies and programs for a while as Rove was stroking his ego and grooming him for the presidency or what? What was going on in Texas for the 8 years he was governor?

    When he got the Republican nomination, my reaction was similar to that of “Sarah WHO”? Oh, yeah, the son of President George Herbert Walker Bush. I still consider Bush Senior something of an elder statesman and an honorable man although I didn’t and don’t agree with his political ideology. (Now, really, how many people know the name of the governor of our itty-bitty state of Hawaii?)

    As a life long Democrat, you and I are biased and on the same page. However, I think you could provide some valuable insights into why we were so stupid as to allow Bush to make it to the White House in the first place. It’s OK to be a bitch, an ass and/or a jackass if that’s what people want to be. It is NOT OK to be put in a position of authority to shove bullshit down the throats of millions and millions of people!

    Aloha!

    Jean

    P.S. Age has nothing to do with feminine vanity. I put on my make-up and fix my hair too. We want to look our best no matter how old we get. It does get harder and takes longer though, doesn’t it. Sigh.

  301. “If you want to save marriage, marry someone you love. And that’s all I have to say about that.”

    Oh my gosh. Such great words- you summed it up in a mere two sentences.

    If the religious right wants to legislate marriage, then husband and I (who were married in a beach, not in the eyes of God because we’re atheists, etc etc) shouldn’t technically be married, either.

    I have the awesome right to marry someone I love, and it’s a great right to have. I can’t understand why certain people in this society feel so strongly about keeping that right from others- it just breaks my heart.

  302. Such a thoughtful post. And as a Christian, I like to think that on this point, IF God is still STUCK in Leviticus, then using the gift of free will (the gift that keeps on giving) I respectfully disagree with the Big Man. I don’t think our government has any business dealing in religious mandates. We start to sound a lot like the Islamic extremists when we allow the church and state to become intangled in such orgies of ideology.

    Just because you’re a Christian doesn’t give you a hall pass on tuning out common sense and tuning in to divisive hate.

    Keep it up, H & M. I mean it. Really.

  303. And they all said……AMEN!!

    Go Helen tell em’ like it is girlfriend….I truely enjoy your blog, you remind me of my grandmother (:

  304. Just want to thank you and inspiring all of us, especially those of us who are women “of a certain age”…rock on! There’s lot’s more work to do, let’s keep the momentum flowing!

  305. I couldn’t have said it better myself!

  306. Another great, and absolutely spot on, post.

    I thought EH was okay the day after the election (i still strongly disliked her but thought she accepted her candidates defeat gracefully), but when I heard her speak on Prop 8, I remembered why i dislike her so much in the first place.

    And Sherri, she has had her funny moments, but she is disappointing as well. She went on to say she has a close gay friend who’s a great father (she was talking about the adoption ban in Arkansas-Despicable!) while she said that marriage is a spiritual thing and she doesn’t know what she thinks about gay marriage because of that. So gay people can’t be spiritual? Or her logic tells her that her gay friend doesn’t deserve a basic right? I don’t get where she stands. She weeped about her sons future after Obama won, but prior to that she never committed to saying she was voting for him. Maybe her “role” on The View is to be the total center, but it’s not flattering to her at all.

    Logic needs to rule over religion, people. I’ve never had a problem with gay people, and so when my friend of 20 years told me she was gay, i was surprised at first because she’d always dated men before and i never suspected, but i didn’t care when she told me her truth. It never affected the way I felt about her. And how could it? How could i be friends with someone for 20 years and then find this out and change my mind? She is who she has always been, so even if i were a religious person (though I’m not at all-i guess more of a deist(sp?) as others have said) i would have to question any belief that told me that she was wrong, living in sin, or going to hell, and so on.

    This really makes me question how anyone finding out one of their relatives, especially a child, is gay, could make them want to disown them and so on. How has logic not won out to tell you that you know this is a wonderful person, no matter what their sexual preference is? No matter who they want to bring home to dinner (as long as that person is treating them as they should be treated.)

    Prop 8, the other similar bans that passed in other states, and the adoption ban are so completely backwards it is unbelievable in this day and age. Incomprehensible that people are so against other people and have worked so hard to deny them a basic right. But that is the sad history of this country, and i guess there are those who are not ready to get rid of it quite yet. Why not have another embarassing mark against the basic values of America.

    I had not seen Keith Olbermann’s comment but watched it as it was recommended above several times. He is also spot on. A really beautiful statement. I’ve never watched him before but think I will start…after getting my (hopefully daily) fill of this blog.

    Can’t wait to see what you are working on!

  307. You. Are. Awesome! Have been reading your blog for a couple weeks now and am hooked, along with my mom and a couple other family members.

    And, you could probably make some money from advertising on your blog.

  308. I love your blog and love that you write exactly what you are thinking.

    I am a gay woman and I would like to personally thank you for defending my right to marry my sweetheart.

  309. This was never about protecting marriage, as you noted or we’d be banning divorce.

    This is about control. In order for religion to work there must be faith in the doctrine. Faith requires that you don’t question.

    If you question, then the concepts begin to break down

    When the concepts break down, the hold over the masses begin to fade

    If that element of the doctrine doesn’t hold up then what about this?

    Most religion is based on explaining the unexplainable.

    When science replaces the mythology, then the religion tends to fall apart

    So, it’s important to control the thought process and fight change because change inevitably erodes religious doctrine and members leave the congregation.

  310. Great blog, ever considered chipping in at the religious forum on amazon.com?

    http://www.amazon.com/tag/religion/forum/ref=cm_cd_pg_oldest?%5Fencoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx417AUXOWKSRN&cdPage=1&cdSort=newest&cdThread=Tx1QX8RLHEY428N&displayType=tagsDetail

    Sorry about the long url, there is a conversation going on there that I think you could add a lot of value to.

  311. It’s always amazing how religious nutjobs will pick and choose whatever supports their bigotry in the Bible.

    Marriage, according to the old customs, was a business merger between two families. The woman wore white to represent that she was “pure goods.” She took the husband’s name because she was, again, goods passing from her own family to his. Love didn’t even enter into marriage until after the Renaissance, and marriage has since evolved into a legalization of love, not a business merger.

    So. If marriage is today a legalization of love and NOT a business merger where the woman is treated like goods … what’s the beef about gays marrying again? Or maybe the religious bigots would like to go back to the old system, if they’re so keen on saving traditional marriages.

  312. There is a fascinating point here about the separation of church and state that seems to be the reason for the current so-called issue of gay marriage (by this I mean that it bears all the markings of a smokescreen issue that tries to keep people’s attention away from the real issues, such as the fact that even us heterosexuals are having trouble keeping a roof over our heads, and not just in the USA. We have both the economic and the smokescreen issues in Australia too from time to time!).

    Your point about divorce is one of the most powerful I’ve seen made on this issue. When I was a kid growing up in Ireland, divorce was illegal, there being no separation of church and state there. There must’ve been plenty of couples who simply LOATHED one another under the same roof.

    Be that as it may, the fact that an issue which has clearly some from a religious perspective, and from religious lobbying has been allowed to overtake what some of us Christians believe to be a more fundamental calling – to love one another and to help and rejoice where we see love blossom.

    In all its forms.

    I have gay couple friends who have adopted children. They are superb parents. Their love and devotion to one another and their children is a model for all of us.

    NO gay marriage, civil union, dating, engagement, vows, etc. are EVER going to threaten mine.

    Cos I’m not gay see?

    The power of love for one another is greater than any obstacle we choose to put in its path. “As strong as death” it says in the Bible.

    That a pretty powerful phenomenon to align yourself with when you wake up in the morning. And if you wake up with the right person, no matter what your gender, colour, creed, or sexual orientation – or theirs for that matter – you take your place in the ranks of love.

    That’s where I want to be.

    Thanks for the blog!!!

  313. I was one of the people who asked you about same sex marriage. I asked because the topic was relevant to the elections, but I was also curious whether you -as an American and as an older person- would be as outspoken about it as you had been about other subjects.
    It’s inspiring to see that you are so graciously able to step outside of your comfort zone (really never talking about it).

    I love that you say you feel responsible when many people read your blog (I need to educate myself). I’m not sure that’s very common. It creates a great sense of personal sharing in your writing.
    My wish for you is that this feeling of responsibility will never limit you in what you want to express.

  314. I am a life-long bleeding-heart liberal, but I have a hard time thinking that we have all the answers. Extremist liberals AND extremist conservatives should be sent to a desert island where they can scream at each other and call each other names to their heart’s content. In the meantime, back in the real world, there are reasonable liberals and conservatives who are willing to talk to each other thoughtfully and continue to grow and learn.

    Now THAT is what I’d like to see on The View — folks of different beliefs who listen to each other without interrupting. But it would be so boring. They wouldn’t be able to sell much advertising time with that format.

  315. Skyewriter,

    Your quite welcome for the link to sign the petition:

    http://www.mormonsstoleourrights.com/

    If anyone is interested in any of the Protests Against H8 on Saturday, here is a link to a website that lists events all over the United States:

    http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com/?t=anon

    http://lolasdiner.blogspot.com/

  316. I want you on the view that would shake things up. You would be great. Thank you for the blog. I just have to read it once a day. I really do wish you could be on the view and tell it the way you do. THier rating would go right out the roof! Love ya

  317. Christianity used to be about who to love, now it is who to hate.

  318. I wrote something similar, but more on the legal aspect of this issue. I like this blog a whole lot, but its even cooler when it is independently stating similar stances on the same issues.

    Thanks for the Validation.

    http://apocalyptictheocracy.blogspot.com

    I put this blog on my blogroll so others could visit this awesome place of thought provoking posts and discussions.

  319. WOO HOO! I love it!

    Being a feminist, I relish movies and shows about and for women. But I simply cannot stand The View. I understand what Barbara Walters was trying to do with having a bunch of different women discussing topics on the show, but it doesn’t work for me. When I heard that Hasselback woman talking I said “Oh, Hell no.” *shrugs*

    You are spot on with the religion thing. I realized the evil those people can be when the leaders of our church kicked us out when my parents divorced. In the end, they did me a favor because I no longer subscribe to any of those beliefs. I feel much more powerful because *I* control my life, not some fairy in the sky.

    Just my two cents…

  320. I have seen rumors that Helen doesn’t exist…that this blog is a hoax but now, in talking about the problems she had with the media, Sarah Palin tells us the truth about you and other bloggers…evidently not only did the media not investigate the accusations against her and take the word of bloggers but bloggers are just “kids in pajamas sitting in the basement of their parents’ homes”.

    Ah-ha! The truth comes out!!!

    Love your blog, love your perspective…glad you are staying in your pjs!!!

  321. Absolutely the most honest post concerning this horrific discrimination being codified in our country. Thank you for having the courage to speak the truth.

  322. Margaret and Helen – I read your blog almost every day, I started when I was pointed in your direction during the campaign – I believe in almost every opinion you have! I too believe people should mind their own business and let people love whomever they want – if it is not hurting anyone than it is no one’s business but their own. Marriage should not be outlawed by those who wish to enter into it – there are too many divorces and unhappy people in the world, let those who wish to be married be married. Karen

  323. But if you want to protect marriage push for a constitutional amendment to ban divorce.

    LOVE THAT ! LOL !

  324. Re: Tanya’s link to the ‘save the children, petition to ban divorce!’ There was a wonderful video to go with that. He’s the link (sent to me by my brother’s LEGAL FOR THE MOMENT IN CALIFORNIA husband.) You might have to cut and paste if the link didn’t embed.

  325. BTW: Thanks to Lola for providing the link to the petition against the Mormon Church lobbying. I signed it and will pass the link on.

  326. Your blog is a delight.

  327. It is my understanding that in South America, they have two weddings. One is civil and the other religious. What a concept. Why not make the legal rights available to everyone and let the churches decide whether they will sanction, bless, or otherwise approve. It isn’t the church who gives out the license. DUH.

    http://www.whatwouldwandado.blogspot.com

  328. Re The View: Elizabeth & Sherry are representative of one “audience” while Joy & Whoopie, another. I imagine that Barbara thinks the views, then, are balanced. (No doubt there are pro-Elizabeth/Sherry blogs running contemporaneously to this.) Anyone remember that equally dreadful Debbie Matanopolous? The magic word here is CONTRACT….and we can only hope that viewer opinion will weigh in when negotiation time rolls around.

    Re Prop 8: The Keith Olberman speech gave me a lump in my throat. Helen’s comments made me question my own apathy on this issue. I understand that as society changes, so must its laws. (Once upon a time, women weren’t allowed to vote, Blacks were segregated, etc.) Prop 8 will NOT go away. I know that is small comfort to those whose lives were affected by its defeat. My hope is that this continues to get challenged in every possible state, in every possible election, until it is finally passed.

  329. Lola,
    Thanks so much for that link to the petition. I signed and then sent that link to everyone I know (spamming friends and family with social consciousness :).

    Wish they’d get after Rick Warren and his claims that kids would be taught about gay marriage in school if Prop 8 did not pass. I want a refund on my public education, ‘cuz I didn’t get a class on marriage in school and don’t know anyone who did.

  330. Just stopping by to say hi. I’ll try to bring something nice to eat next time.

  331. This is the blog. It didn’t come through in my post so I had to “copy” and “paste.” (I still can’t figure how to highlight so you can go directly to it.)MsTate

    http://telling-secrets.blogspot.com/

  332. I am an Episcopalian. We call ourselves Christians, just as Lutherans, Methodists, Congregationalists, Baptists and Roman Catholics do. We believe that Jesus is the son of God, and we follow the teachings of Jesus. Our “philosopies” and interprtations of the Bible differ, sometimes narrowly, often widely. What seems to be happening more and more is that folks, when referring to christians, mean fundamentalist, conservative Christians. Therefore, we are all painted with the same brush which is far, far from the truth. (End of sermon ;~) )

    For those of you who might be interested, I’d like to recommend a blog by a woman Episcopal priest, who is Gay. She’s in a 30+ year relationship and is a real activist within her church as well as for the rights of ALL people. She is a dear friend and she also reads Helen’s blog.

    Enjoy.

  333. Well, Helen, I’m not a Christian, I’m a Buddhist and for the life of me I can’t figure out why they (the Christians) continually get their knickers in a twist over topics that should be strictly private (like birth control, who you love, etc.) and go on to dictate ironclad rules, ideas and actions. Where is the compassion? Where is the love of humanity? Our life is a journey of trying to figure out the journey…why don’t we help each other along the path? Thank you for being you; I appreciate it greatly!
    P.S. I haven’t seen The View but I guess I’ll have a look-see :)

  334. Hello ladies, it’s me, your favorite “sheep lover” in Oklahoma! 107 of your readers came over to my site to visit yesterday, and that is just delightful.

    Once again, thank you so very much.

    I still watch the view every now and then (don’t tell Cup Cake) but not as much as before. And I had to give up pro-football because every time they huddled together like that, I just knew they were talking about me!

    As I fully realize that this is a time for joy and true happiness at Margaret & Helen, I would be the last to want to throw cold water on the celebration of Mr. Obamas’ recent victory.

    But today as all of you once again ride the wave of recent events, please take time to humbly remember who it was that made it possible for you and yours, to enjoy the freedoms and liberties that you have.

    Thank a Vet.

    Tomorrow morning I will put up something for you on Creative Endeavors because you are so special. “Obama Under Glass,” everything you ever wanted to know about the new first family and soon to be adopted pooch …. come early and avoid the rush!

    Bye-Bye ladies, I have to go to bed now, and guess what I am going to count?

    Goats!

    Don Smith

  335. Elisabeth Hasselbeck was a nobody until she ate a rat on Survivor. I don’t know which one, because I don’t watch them, but I think it was Australia.

    At any rate, I have noticed this all over. The Obama voters, who got slammed regularly on the net, have not gloated. I have not brought up his win on boards because I don’t want to rub it in. But do you think that Elisabeth would be shutting up if her precious Palin had won, or would she be bringing it up every day?

  336. Hi Helen,

    From your mouth to God’s ear and anybody else willing to be open minded enough to hear!

    Shirley

  337. Just came across this and thought it was appropriate:

    “If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.”
    –The Dalai Lama

  338. It’s always a pleasure reading your ladies’ blog.

    I’m very disappointed with Prop 8 passing. All the pro-commercials running were very frustrating to see, especially the ones involving schools attending marriages. Last I remember, parents have to consent to any field trip or event for their child — it isn’t being forced upon.

  339. Helen,

    Spot on as always. Thank you so much for the link to the Atticus Circle too.

    This reminded me of a friend’s story. He was in high school when he realized his orientation and was very torn about talking to his family about it. He finally told his grandfather (to quote you there’s a reason we call them grand) who hugged him saying “Thank god, we were all worried you were on drugs.”

    Keep at it – almost 1million!

  340. Thanks for your analogies that underscore the concepts underlying the separation of church and state. You put into words what I could only feel before. Thanks for speaking up!

  341. Thank you.

  342. Helen,

    Well, clearly YOU show be on the View instead of that hideously angry elizabeth or the completely forgettable cheryl (or whatever her name is).

    But I suspect you are not interested in wasting your time, and, I am so curious about the new changes!

    Huzzah on your successful blog!

  343. I am a straight old woman, married to an old man. I have grandchildren……I think I am in love with you, Helen. Too bad for America, you aren’t interested in running the country/

  344. I honestly thought Joy was going to reach across the table and bitch-slap EH. The whole cast was thanking veterans for their service and Joy started to talk about the cost of war (not only $, but lives) and EH kept cutting her off, not letting her speak, telling her that today was a day of thanks for veterans, not for talking about how much this war costs. I think that Whoopie actually had to hold Joy back. Sherrie Shepard just sits back and lets it all happen. It’s almost as if she’s afraid to have an opinion for fear of getting caught between Whoopie/Joy and EH.

    I find it profoundly disturbing that religious organizations got involved monetarily in the Prop 8 fight. I think the Mormons, for one, should lose their tax exempt status for attempting to influence the passage of Prop 8. Sign the petition at: http://www.mormonsstoleourrights.com/

    http://lolasdiner.blogspot.com/

  345. Way to say it like it is, Helen! I’m a first-time visitor to this blog, and you’ve easily won me over as a fan.

    Who are these so-called Christians to define what marriage is for me? How could I possibly feel my own marriage or family would be in any way harmed if two consenting, committed, same-sex adults marry?

  346. [i]“It seems to me that the loudest Christians have suddenly become the most un-Christ-like people”.[/i]

    Yes, it’s remarkable to see the amount of bigotry and hate that can come from people who claim to follow Jesus. I stopped being able to justify being around those types of people many years ago, and it (perhaps unfairly) soured me to organized religion in general.

    BTW, I love the blog! You gals rock!

  347. I agree, if you don’t like gay marriage, don’t do it! I think you would be the best guest ever on the view. You could run circles around those women.
    Love you Helen!

  348. Thank you for speaking the truth – and PLEASE, keep these blogs coming. You are truly the brightest light in the sky.

  349. I love you, I really do. You state simply & clearly waht others cannot in 4x as many words. I have so enjoyed reading your blog, & hope you will continue posting. We so need logical, sensible thinkers right now!

    Margaret & Helen for Congress!!!!

  350. debinohio- I commend you for not being a christian after finding out your son is gay. I went through a similar situation about 8 years ago only it was my favorite uncle that came out of the closet.
    The way I like to think of it now that I am a little bit older and have had time to soak it in, is that the various churches have screwed up their interpretations and nuances of the bible so bad that its not even worth going to church anymore. So I do still believe in God as a creator and I still pray, but I do not believe in religion of any kind. I guess the academic world calls that deism (spell???)… Definitionally speaking I would like to think I am a deist in a slightly more christian sense but oh well…
    First and formost love your son and love mankind and womankind…. Thats one thing that they seem to have forgotten or else they would not have passed Prop 8.

    Helen- Great blog great post as always…

    The View is interesting to say the least… I can’t stand more than 30 seconds at a time most days. I think though that they need to get some more intelligent folk on there though. Whoopi is a good start, but the rest of them lack in something up there….

  351. “… suddenly become the most un-Christ-like people.”

    I know what you mean but I don’t think it was all that sudden. They’ve been spewing hate for centuries and a lot of cases commiting atrocities in the name of god.

    “she was hit with the actual ignorant stick” This is a prerequisite to fundamentalism, conservatism, and just plain GOP.

  352. When I grow up, I want to be you. Wise, honest, and not afraid to speak your mind. I look forward to reading whatever you put here. Your comment about a constitutional amendment to ban divorce is about the smartest thing I’ve ever heard.

    Like my friend Kris the pastor in MN says when it comes to this matter… Love first, baby. Love first.

    Blessings…

  353. Thank you, thank you, thank you! You certainly make my day.

  354. Well, thank Harold for me, because I do not pay much attention to celebrity marriages, but I was very worried that my favorite quarterback was married to a bimbo. Now I am reassured.

    Of course, he may still be married to a bimbo, but as long as it’s not that one, I feel a little better.

  355. Helen, thanks so much for your thoughtful blog entries. My work days are generally dreary, but reading your blog puts an extra spring in my step. You and Margaret are a blessing — not just to each other, but to us all. Keep on keepin’ on. Peace.

  356. I’ve been feeling that way about The view lately too. I miss Rosie, she was the only one who stuck it to Elisabeth. There are even times when Whoopi needs to back up Joy and she never does. And Barbara plays moderate. It’s like the Supreme court and Barbara is the swing vote, but she seems to always go with Elisabeth. I think it’s cause Elisabeth is sitting next to her and is probably pinching her under the table with claws made out of money.

  357. You are so cool. You remind me of my grandma (now deceased, I miss her terribly) who actually asked me if I was gay, and hugged me, and kissed me, and went on being my adored grandma.

  358. Ma’am, thank you very much for this post. It’s very much appreciated up here in the Pacific Northwest. Please keep on being awesome. :)

  359. Thank you for your blog, it is too darn funny. I’ve been reading about 2 weeks now and love it. You mentioned making divorce legal, so I thought I would send this fun link.

    http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/protect-marriage-protect-children-prohibit-divorce

  360. I should have said “MY prayer book.” Sorry.

  361. ‘Isnt it odd how so many of the so called Christians out there who judge everyone else are the ones that never set foot in a church—-‘

    Did anyone see the politician on the Colbert Report who was advocating having the Ten Commandments in public places? Colbert asked him to name them, and he could only think of 3! And besides, the prayer book says “and write these thy laws in my heart,” not on the courtroom wall.

  362. Well said as usual…

  363. Isnt it odd how so many of the so called Christians out there who judge everyone else are the ones that never set foot in a church—-

  364. Every time I read your blog I don’t think I could love you more than I already do….and then, I return the next day, read your next entry, and I love you more than the previous day.

    Big Helen love…that is what my life is all about! And I obviously couldn’t agree more with you on everything, from gay marriage to that bitch Elisabeth. How in the fuck did she go from cute Survivor Australia girl to national TV show host whose opinion supposedly (but doesn’t) matter?! HOW?!

    Love ya Helen, and keep on bloggin’ on!

  365. ” if you want to protect marriage push for a constitutional amendment to ban divorce.”

    Excellent!

    I’m so very tired of people talking about Christian behavior. There is no Christian behavior. There is good behavior and bad behavior; there is tolerance and there is ignorance. Christians are people who believe that Christ died for our sins and was risen from the grave. That’s it. The rest of it is so much propaganda by people who are trying to counter their own insecurity by excluding others.

  366. Yes, well said, Helen. I am all for a wide separation of church and state. I don’t want anybody legislating my moral compass for me.

    Thanks for speaking out.

    KJ

    http://www.nanadiaries.com

  367. Hear Hear Helen!
    Obama needs to find a place for you as one of his advisors!

  368. I love this blog! It proves to me that progressiveness is not age dependent. While I may be a little too out there for some, I am not afraid to say what I believe either. Keep up the good work!

    Debra

    http://thesexblogger.com

  369. Let’s all just have one big collective sigh of relief that Sarah Palin will now go back to her igloo. And hopefully educate her children about birth control, and whatever else she’s been missing since being such a celebrity/ignoble blink of an eye in all our lives. And what a scary blink it was! As for Barbara, I can’t stand those women and they lost me a long time ago. I say Joy should jump ship. I would watch her.
    Brenda in Tyler

  370. I normally am not one to push my own blog on here, but I sort of discussed the marriage issue on one posting and instead of repeating myself on here, if one wants to read it, here it is:

    http://politicalmorsels.com/2008/11/05/one-victory-many-still-left/

  371. ~Hi Helen~ Amy Again~
    ~I am just really tired of being treated like a yo-yo!!!
    ~As an American~
    ~And, I feel that this what is happening~
    ~ I feel that SomEOne OuT there is treating us like ThIeR PuPpetS~ AND~ it is really making me mad!!!!~

    And, I am a very happy mother of 4 children & wife to only one man. ~
    ~I am an artist~
    ~But, I am super tired of being played like this.
    ~ People cannot afford BIG Christmas’s this year.~
    ~We need to spread the keep it simple attitude this year~

    ~Amy~

  372. Oh, I know when I read your blog I am going to feel a whole lot better. You are really a hoot.

    I cried and was so depressed when Molly Ivins died, but you have made me feel so much better. If you were much younger, I swear I would think you were Molly reincarnated. I love your ironic sense of humor. There is no better way to make a point than in a joke. Don’t ever stop.

  373. Wow. Well said. I’m starting to feel like I’m trying to compete with greatness.

    http://thedailyduke.com/20-idealistic-emails-in-20-days-day-2/

    Duke

  374. Thank you so much. I love both of you so much. My grandparents all passed before I was old enough to know them as people, but I hope they were as awesome as you two.

  375. As always, you are right on target. I think Obama should ask you to serve on his cabinet…

  376. Well said!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Totally agree!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I would love for you to be on the View!!!

  377. Well said Helen. I have two sons & guess what? One of them happens to be gay. I found out four years ago when he was 18. We were Christians at that time. Boy did I find out that I was a leper. Just for being the mother. Don’t you know I caused it? Don’t you know that Dr. James Dobson from Focus on the Family wrote a book on how to gayify your sons? I guess I should have read the book:)

    It has been a long & interesting ride that I have been on & I am no longer a Christian. No offense to those of you that are, but when you have this happen to you you really have to search yourself & religion pretty good. I’m sorry but I expect the same rights for my one son who is gay as my non-gay son (how did I make one gay and one not gay Dr. Dobson?). We live in America the land of the free.

    As far as The View – whenever I do catch it on a day off I just can’t understand how Joy doesn’t reach over the table & smack Elisabeth. She & Palin could be twins (I call them Dumb & Dumber, but I am not sure who is Dumber). If I had to listen to Elisabeth everyday they would have to pay me MILLIONS. Cheryl? I just think she was hit with the actual ignorant stick when she was born. She is truly just ignorant. Barbara should be ashamed that she has these two represent women. Of course, people still believe Palin is really smart so maybe these two are representative of us women. God forbid!

  378. “If marriage is an institution supported by this country then it must be made available to all of its citizens according to the law. If however, it is strictly a religious institution then a constitutional amendment determining who can and cannot have access to it is sort of missing the point. ”

    Helen, this is so spot on. I don’t understand why the overtly-religious can’t keep their ideas within the realm of their religion, but not bleed over into the rest of the country. Don’t believe in abortion – don’t get one. Don’t believe in gay marriage – don’t have one. But leave the rest of us to decide for ourselves.

    My question is: how does anyone else’s marriage, gay or straight, have any affect on me and my husband’s marriage?

    And I also LOVE Keith Olberman — you two are on the same page as far as this issue goes.

    Keep writing, I look forward to reading you every day.

  379. And oh yeah, one more thing. I always say, if you don’t believe in gay marriage, don’t have one.

  380. I think they should just fire that dumbass Sherry or Cherry or whateverthehellhernameis and that stupidasallgetoutandgo Elizabeth the Entitled and put you and Margaret on instead. Their viewership would skyrocket.

    Once again you managed to boil all the ridiculousness down to a few concise sentences and expose the root of the silly. Voting to ban meat on Fridays indeed. Nuff said.

    Are you sure you aren’t really Betty Bowers in disguise?

  381. “But if you want to protect marriage push for a constitutional amendment to ban divorce.”

    A(wo)men to that! Seriously.

  382. Helen-

    I don’t know if you are a better political analyst or media critic. I can’t wait to see what your surprise for the blog is!!!

  383. Dear, Dear Helen,

    You are really the “cat’s meow”. I look forward everyday to reading your comments that so entirely match mine. Here’s a Great Big Thanks!

    I also have given up on the View..Barbara is from a past generation, as you and I, but has not evolved. Think that must be why she allows the “airheads” air time. I used to mute when Elizabeth opened her mouth but my finger is getting tired. The program used to atleast amuse me. But like listening to anything about Palin, it is not funny!

    And speaking of Palin, (which will be my first and last time). How could anyone think of that “dimboo” having a future as the leader of our country? Guess there are still a few ignorant people out there. Just wait until Pres.-elect Obama permiates our collective reasoning for 4 years with intelligence, excellence and grace. Maybe then the minority will grow up.

    Look forward to reading yours…you are my new “The View”.

    Sophia

  384. I love your blog, and it’s so nice to see you educate yourself in your old days.

    I think you are on the same page as Keith Olbermann on this subject. I don’t usually like Olbermann, but on yesterdays Countdown he talked so beautifully about love. It was so potent in its unusual quiet intensity. I recommend watching his speech.

  385. ~Hi Helen~
    I am agreeing & cheering you on~

    ~But~
    Can we please talk about the gas prices?~

    ~Why are they so low NOW ?~
    ~Just before Christmas?~

    ~Please help me here~

    ~There is something going on~

    ~Is it the “Bell” ringing, go spend your money America~ ~GaS IS CHEEP NOW~ sPEND~ even if you are in big dept~ It is Christmas~

    ~Please help warn America to hold on to their $~
    Don’t be fooled~

    ~The truth is ~ kids really do remember the simple things~ more than a video game~
    ~Stay strong~ go with your gut~

    ~Make the company’s beg~

    ~Help me with this Helen~

    ~Amy~

  386. That’s it…I’m not just buying a T-shirt, I’m buying three AND a mug! You are an absolute hoot. Really!

  387. You are so damn right. Period.

  388. Apparently embedding a video won’t work here, which makes sense. Please visit:

    -Keith Olbermann on Prop 8

  389. I must say, I’ve never watched The View. Judging from what you’ve said about it, Helen, I don’t think I ever will.

    I’m so darned proud of you and Margaret. I sort of identify with you, just on the grounds of age, and you make me proud just to be in your age group.

    I’m looking forward to whatever it is you’re cooking up now.

  390. Helen & Margaret,

    I’m not sure whether or not you ladies ever watch Keith Olbermann, but I find this former sports announcers’ comments to be surprisingly on, witty, and a perfect retort to Bill O’Reilly (ugh!) as a whole. Watch what Keith said about Prop 8:

    I found it surprisingly moving, and I hope that you’ll watch and enjoy it too.

    In other news, I live in Austin, TX and hope you enjoyed your trip into the city the other day, Helen.

  391. I am a Christian-a Christian who stanchly supports gay marriage, and gasp, I think that god just wants us to love each other. Period. I don’t think it is anyone’s business what sexual orientation someone is, if the live her in the US then all should be given the same rights. Stupid Mormons and Catholics from states everywhere encrouaging their members to fund the Yes On 8 Prop-for shame.

  392. Why, only the other day I wrote that – from where I’m standing in Australia – the separation between Church and State in the US is as clear as the green slugs of snot sliding out of my 4 year old’s nose.

  393. “But if you want to protect marriage push for a constitutional amendment to ban divorce.”

    I had to quote you:

    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=809680117&ref=name#/profile.php?id=809680117&ref=name&pub=2915120374

  394. Helen,
    You have such a gift for expressing your views. If more people had your gift, maybe we could find more common ground.

    Keep it up, and congrats on approaching a million hits!

  395. Hi Girlz
    Not that i matters much (I think it does, but that’s only me) but did you realize that from this moment on your only 54358 hits away from making your first MILLION? I don’t know if you ever made it in $$ (hope you did, you’d deserve it) But you sure made it where it COUNTS, here in this blog, by tomorrow you most probably will be Millionaers! Congraz. Sincerily.
    Werner

  396. Helen I love you! I agree with you on every point. So well said! I wish I could say it as well as you.

    I hope you watched the Keith Oberman commentary….it should be required viewing for everyone, and your blog should be required reading! Keep on blogging!

    A fan in Canada

  397. Hi, I just found your blog…it’s great! Please keep it up.

  398. What a really fantastic post. So many good points that some people really need to understand. You might be my second-favorite 82 year old. (My father still wins the top spot. I’m sure you understand.)

    There are too many people who aren’t putting enough thought into this issue and blindly fighting against gay marriage because they think they have to and not realizing how hypocritical their being. It’s just not right for a state constitution to treat any minority group differently than the rest because of some religious agenda, and marriage is in no way defined by a coupling of a man and a woman. Growing up, I’m sure a lot of us were taught that marriage was something you went into when you found someone you loved.

  399. Helen, you make my life. I’ve got my mom and my grandma hooked on your blog as well. Thanks for your open mind and saucy mouth!

  400. Wow– this is funny, powerful and thought-provoking as always, Helen.

    “And how about birth control?” you ask.

    Some religious groups are trying to define “life” as starting at the moment of conception. Any doctor worth her/his student loans will tell you that even THEY don’t know when life “technically” begins. Lots of fertilized eggs don’t make it to the uterus (like, um, ectopic pregnancies), some make it there but don’t implant. Some miscarry (sadly any for those in desperate want of off-spring).

    If these zealots are successful in their quest to control other people’s bodies (notice it’s usually women’s bodies, too) then all forms of female birth control will become illegal.

    “How would all of you feel about a constitutional amendment banning meat on Fridays? ” How unbelievably astute of you to draw that parallel.

    Thanks so much for writing to/for us. You are a bright light in a populous that is in grave need of learning how to speak and listen to each other.

    Hugs,
    Jess

    http://skyewriter-novemberfifth.blogspot.com/

  401. I’m with you on all of those “Christians” who loudly proclaim what it means to be Christian. The most wonderful Christians I know don’t have to shout their faith from the rooftops. They are loving, caring people who don’t feel the need to judge others.

    One of the best examples of a happy, loving marriage that my husband and I have is our friends, a lesbian couple who had a commitment ceremony in 1997 and recently got legally married. They have stood by each other and loved each other fully in good times and bad, in sickness and health. They are a model of what marriage should be, and I’m honored to know them — and to have stood in the sunshine to celebrate their commitment oh so many years ago.

  402. I’ve been saying for a long time…it often seems those who consider themselves the most religious are often the most judgmental of others. That is not what Christianity teaches.

    The far right, with the help of the Mormons spent millions of dollars to stop prop 8 from passing in CA. America better wake up to their agenda.

    When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. — Sinclair Lewis

  403. “If you want to protect marriage push for a constitutional amendment to ban divorce.”

    Margaret, you’re BRILLIANT! Keep writing! WE ALL LOVE YOU!

    Marc

  404. I think you’re talking about Sherry Shepard.

    Elisabeth Hasselbeck scares the life out of me. If they are going to have someone represent the Conservative view, I’d rather see someone who is NOT blond, thin, wealthy and the culturally ideal specimen.

    How about a plus-sized Black female conservative? Maybe then we’d hear their point of view with some authenticity.

    I can’t imagine what is going to happen with The View, now that the election is over.

    ~Chani

    http://thailandgal.blogspot.com

    ~*

  405. Beautiful, Margaret. I couldn’t agree with you more. I really enjoy reading your blog and it really provided comic relief and furthered my convictions during the elections. Thanks for sharing your very wise and heartfelt thoughts with us!

  406. If you think Elisabeth is the dumbest one, you haven’t been watching long enough. Sherri does not know if the world is round.

  407. Well said Helen!

  408. Wow. What a great point you make. The Constitution gives us the right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. There is no universal path to either of those goals. They are subject to our individual desires.

  409. Helen, I love you. I thought for awhile that this might all be some elaborate hoax by some hipster 20-something who thought it would be cool to write a blog under the guise of an 80 year old woman, but I take it all back – no way does a hipster 20-something subject themselves to The View as much as you do for the sake of the internets.

    If only everybody had as much sense as you.

  410. Hi Helen!

    I adore the blog you and Margaret have here…it’s so lovely to see two women say whatever they damn well please without being afraid of what anyone else thinks.

    I wanted to share with you a video of commentator Keith Olbermann (from MSNBC) responding to the passage of Proposition 8 the same way you did: talking of love. Here’s the link:

    http://www.feministing.com/archives/012139.html

    Keep up the great work! Those of us with family members who are gay and just anyone interested in equal rights for all appreciate your comments!

    -Steph
    Seattle, WA


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